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欢迎收听《证明它》播客，在这里，我们不在乎你怎么想，只在乎你能证明什么。
Welcome to the Prove It podcast, where we don't care what you think, only what you can prove.
在本期节目中，杰西卡和我将剖析文化。
On this episode, Jessica and I attack culture.
文化本身就是一个极具争议的话题，而这正是我们讨论的核心。
Culture by itself is a polarizing conversation, and that's exactly what this was.
这是一场对话。
This was a conversation.
我们有共识。
There were agreements.
我们也有分歧。
There were disagreements.
我们在一些事情上立场一致，而在另一些事情上则完全持不同看法。
There were things we aligned on, and things we completely viewed differently.
但最终，它改变了我对文化的看法，并让我获得了更多洞见，使我成为更好的领导者，帮助我更好地拓展人生中所做的一切。
But at the end of it, it changed how I view culture, and it gave me more insights to be a better leader and to help scale everything that I've done in my life.
话归正传，节目现在开始。
With that said, the show starts now.
大家好。
Hi, everybody.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back to the show.
我非常期待今天的嘉宾。
I'm excited for today's guest.
非常感谢你来到节目。
Thank you so much for being on the show.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
所以，对于世界上可能只有四五个还不知道你是谁的人，你能简单介绍一下你自己、你的工作以及相关情况吗？
So for the four or five people who are in the world who don't know who you are, can you tell a little bit about who you are, what you do, and all of that?
你给我赋予了比我实际拥有的多得多的名气。
You're giving me a lot more credit for being renowned than I actually am.
嗯，你即将有一场TEDx演讲。
Well, you got a TEDx talk coming up.
所以，我的意思是，
So, I mean, it's
嗯，这将是我第二次了。
got It'll be my second.
所以，是的，如果你看过我的第一个演讲，叫做《如何让别人在乎》，那你可能会对第二个感兴趣。
So, yes, if you've seen my first one, which is called how to get people to give a shit, then maybe you'll be interested in the second one.
或者根本不在乎。
Or not give a shit at all.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得如今很多员工根本不在乎，这正是
Well, I mean, I think a lot of employees today don't give a shit, which is
百分之千。
Thousand percent.
给领导者的挠痒工具。
Scratcher for leaders.
好的。
Okay.
我是文化咨询公司Culture Partners的首席战略官，同时也是一位即将出版的书籍《放手去领导》的作者。
So I am the chief strategy officer at a culture consulting firm called Culture Partners, and I'm also an author of an upcoming book called Surrender to Lead.
恭喜恭喜。
Mazel tov.
你之前做过一些事情，你提到你做过TEDx演讲。
And so some of the stuff you've done, you talked about you've done TEDx Talks.
在你目前从事的工作之前，你的经历是怎样的？
What was your experience prior to what you're doing now?
是什么事情让你走到今天的？
What are the things that got you here?
你是如何走上这条道路的？
How did you get to that journey?
只是为了让观众了解，我们为什么要听她讲？
Just to give the audience an idea of, what why are we listening to her?
到底发生了什么？
What's what's happening?
因为这正是
Because that's kinda what
我来提个问题。
I'm to throw in question.
我在甲骨文工作了十年。
So I spent ten years at Oracle.
在甲骨文，我是云业务负责人下的战略主管。
And at Oracle, I was the head of strategy for the head of cloud.
所以我离我们的首席执行官只差一步，帮助领导转型工作，是变革和文化的专家。
So I was one person away from our CEO helping lead transformation efforts, so expert in change and culture.
与此同时，我在甲骨文工作期间，还攻读了教育领导与管理的博士学位，并完成了我的博士论文。
I at the same time that I was at Oracle, I went and got my doctoral degree in educational leadership and management and wrote my doctoral dissertation.
这是一项关于职场代际动态的定量研究，主要讨论千禧一代。
It was quantitative research on generational dynamics at work, talking about millennials.
我写这篇博士论文时，Z世代甚至还没有被纳入研究视野。
Gen Zers weren't even on the map back when I wrote this dissertation.
我开始这项研究时，本以为能弄清楚千禧一代想要什么，以及如何吸引、激励和留住他们，因为当时每个人都在关注这个问题。
And I went into that research thinking I was gonna figure out what millennials want and how to engage and attract and retain them, which was what everyone wanted to know at that time.
但最终我意识到，这种说法纯粹是刻板印象的胡言乱语，我们最终必须摆脱用这些标签来定义彼此，因为它们实际上限制了我们理解职场中深层问题的能力。
And what I came out with was the realization that that's a bunch of stereotyping BS and that ultimately we gotta get away from talking about each other in those labels because they're actually limiting our ability to understand the underlying issues that are going on in the workplace.
我为此写了一本书，结果这本书爆红了。
I wrote a book about that and that blew up.
于是我开始了演讲事业，起初这只是一个副业，直到它的收入超过了我在甲骨文的正式工作。
And so I started a keynote career, which was really a side hustle at first until it started making more money than my actual job at Oracle.
之后我离开了甲骨文，独自创业，短暂担任过另一家科技公司的首席人力资源官，最终将我的业务出售给了Culture Partners，我现在就在那里。
And then I left and did that on my own, briefly enjoyed a job as a chief HR officer at a different technology company, and then ultimately sold my business to Culture Partners, and that's where I am now.
当我们谈论这一点时，我很喜欢这种观点：对待人，不要用大刀，而要用手术刀。
So when we talk about this, I love that the idea of instead of being a broad sword using a scalpel when it comes to people.
这就像是，哦，这个人是波士顿红袜队的球迷，所以他就一定是这样。
It's kind of like, oh, this person is a Boston Red Sox fan, therefore they're this.
但实际情况从来都不是这样的。
And that it just never works that way.
在研究千禧一代和相关话题时，你发现过哪些明显错误的观念？
Having that, what are some of the things you found out with millennials and with all of that that are just blatantly wrong?
比如，如果你在你的环境、你的工作场所中应用这些观点，用这种笼统的标签去定义千禧一代、Z世代或X世代——我挺支持X世代的，因为我就是其中之一。
Like, listen, if you're applying this in your environment, in your workspace, and you're using this brush for millennials or Gen Z or Gen X, or which I'm a fan of Gen X because I am one.
所以我们是除了最伟大的世代之外最棒的。
So we are the best outside of the greatest generations.
当然。
Clearly.
你是最棒的。
You're the best.
当然。
Clearly.
显然。
Clearly.
这并不是像婴儿潮一代或最伟大的一代那样，他们才是真正最伟大的一代。
It's not like the boomers or the greatest generation who actually might be the greatest generation.
你发现关于千禧一代的哪些事情是人们完全误解的？
What what are the things that you found about millennials that people just are completely wrong about?
刻板印象就是‘千禧一代’这个词。
The brush is the word millennial.
所以，任何你与某个世代关联的东西，无论是千禧一代还是最伟大的一代，甚至你提到他们可能是最伟大的一代，你都已经开始贴标签了。
So anything that you associate with a generation, and it could be millennials or the greatest generation, even you saying maybe they are the greatest generation, you've already started brushing.
对吧？
Right?
所以我说，这种分类完全是虚构的。
So what I'm saying is that as a classifier is completely fabricated.
我的意思是，首先，‘千禧一代’这个词直到1990年才出现，当时整个研究领域的祖师爷们——我这里用引号是因为我不完全认同——创造了这个词。
I mean, first of all, the word millennial did not exist until 1990 when the grandfathers of this entire research, and I'm saying that with air quotes, research industry invented the word.
定义千禧一代的年份和围绕他们的刻板印象一直在变化。
And the years that define the millennials have changed, the stereotypes around them.
关于千禧一代最常见的刻板印象——这也是我的一代，所以最让我受伤的是——我们自以为是。
The most common for millennials, which is my generation, so it's the one that hurts the most is, you know, we're entitled.
我们擅长科技。
We're tech savvy.
我们懒惰。
We're lazy.
我们想拯救地球。
We wanna save the planet.
Gen Z 就是加强版的千禧一代。
Gen z is just millennials on steroids.
他们注意力缺陷多动。
They're ADHD.
他们缺乏人际交往能力。
They have no interpersonal skills.
他们完全沉迷于科技。
They're completely addicted to technology.
所以所有这些说法都是不准确的。
And so we all of that is inaccurate.
对吧？
Right?
塑造一个人的价值观、性格和行为的是他们的经历，这些经历形成了他们的信念，而信念会驱动他们日常的行动。
What makes up a person's values and character and behaviors, it is the experiences they've had that lead to the beliefs that they hold that are going to motivate the actions that they take day to day.
这取决于成千上万的因素和数十万次的经历，而不是你恰好出生的、对某些人来说长达二十年的任意年龄区间。
And that is gonna be based on thousands of factors and and hundreds of thousands of experiences and not the arbitrary age bracket that you happen to have been born within that for some, it's a twenty year wide age bracket.
对另一些人来说，这个区间是十四年。
For others, it's fourteen years.
当我们使用其他标签时，我们在理智上是理解这一点的。
And we understand that intellectually when we use other labels.
比如，你不能说‘黑人自以为是，白人精通科技’。
Like, you can't say, well, blacks are entitled and whites are tech savvy.
但我们一直被灌输，种族比如是一个不恰当的刻板印象，性别也是一个不恰当的刻板印象。
But we've been it's been drilled into us that race, for example, is an inappropriate stereotype, and gender is an inappropriate stereotype.
但对于世代而言，这种做法却如此被社会接受，以至于我们甚至没有意识到自己正在这么做。
But for generation, it's just so socially acceptable that we don't even realize that's what we're doing.
这实际上是隐藏在世代标签下的年龄歧视，它简化了人类行为的复杂性。
It's really ageism hiding in a generational label, and it's oversimplifying the complexity of human behavior.
因此，它会把你引向错误的方向。
So it takes you down the wrong path.
就别再这样了。
It's just stop.
如果我们再也不提‘千禧一代’这个词，我认为会更好。
I would if we never said the word millennial again, I think that would be better.
我们会因此变得更好。
We'd be better off for it.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这与人类行为中想要走捷径的倾向有关。
I think it's it goes with the human behavior wanting to have a shortcut.
归根结底，我们就是想给事情找捷径。
It's just at the end of the day, we wanna shortcut things.
我们想说，哦，你相信这个。
We wanna say, oh, you believe in this.
你属于这个政党。
You belong to this party.
因此，
Therefore,
为了形成一个群体，就必须有一个外群体，那就是其他人。
In order to be in the group, there needs to be an out group, and that's to other people.
所以，让我先给你做个测试。
So no one let me just give you this test.
从来没有人说过，‘我希望自己属于那一代人。’
No one has ever said, oh, I wish I was a part of that generation.
不管你属于哪一代，或者我们谈论的是哪一代，这都不重要。
It doesn't matter what generation you are or which one we're talking about.
没有人希望自己是婴儿潮一代，或者希望自己是Z世代。
No one wishes they were a baby boomer or wishes they were Gen Z.
每个人都认为自己的世代是最好的一代，这让你觉得自己属于内群体而感到更好，而其他人则必然属于外群体，这在职场中实际上是功能失调且具有破坏性的。
Everyone always thinks their generation is the best generation, which makes you feel better about yourself that you're in the in group, and everyone else therefore must be in the out group, and it's actually dysfunctional and destructive in the workplace.
在希伯来语中，我们说‘外邦人’，这是最温和的术语。
In in Hebrew, we say or gentiles, which is the the nicest term is.
这是我们能说得最温和的方式。
That's the nicest way we can say it.
当你说到‘外邦人’时，意思是‘普通人’。
When you say gentile, it's the general.
普通人。
General.
它是。
It's.
所以，这种区别就在于事情就是如此。
So it's that differentiation between it is what it is.
这不是一个好迹象。
It's not a good sign.
这看起来不太好。
It's not a good look.
接下来我们要讨论的是文化。
The next thing we're gonna talk about is is cultures.
再说说这看起来不太好，你知道的，现在是2025年。
And and talking about not a good look, you know, it's 2025.
我们正接近尾声。
We're wrapping up towards the end of it here.
在进入这个话题时，我们已经失去了超过一百万个工作岗位。
And as we walk into this, we've lost over a million jobs.
在我们的领域里，有很多创业者和经营大企业的人都会来找你我这样的人，说：嘿。
And there's a lot of people in our space, in entrepreneurs, in running big businesses, people that come to people like you and I that say, hey.
嗯。
Yeah.
文化很重要，但我们并不知道文化到底是什么。
Culture is important, but we don't know what culture is.
那么，文化比利润更重要吗？
And therefore, is culture more important than profit?
它们是如何相互影响的？
How do they play off each other?
因为我认为在不同层面，这个问题的答案是不同的，我非常期待和你深入探讨这个话题。
Because I think at different levels, there's different answers to that, and I'm really excited to get into that with you.
这是最让我感兴趣的部分之一。
It's one of the most favorite parts.
我觉得，好吧。
I'm like, alright.
我们要从创业角度、学术角度和企业角度来彻底剖析这个问题，因为它们对文化的看法截然不同。
We're gonna rip apart this from an entrepreneurial side versus academia side versus a corporate side because they are very different views towards culture.
所以对于在家观看的人，文化是什么？
So for the people playing at home, what is culture?
文化就是人们为了取得成果而思考和行动的方式。
It's the way that people think and act to get results.
好的。
Okay.
这很简单。
That's simple.
在当前局势动荡的时候，文化有多重要？
How important is culture now while things are on fire?
当我们正在大量裁员的时候。
When things are when we're hemorrhaging jobs.
那么，作为企业家，你的员工如何思考和行动以取得成果，对你来说有多重要？
Well, how important is it to you as an entrepreneur how your employees think and act to get results?
我的意思是，这是最重要的事情。
I mean, it is the most important thing.
我理解那些认为员工与盈利能力、文化与盈利能力是相互对立的力量、需要平衡以找到恰当的均衡点，从而让利润飙升、员工蓬勃发展的领导者。
And I sympathize with the leaders who think that people and profitability or culture and profitability are these two opposing forces that we need to balance and find the right equilibrium so that our profitability can soar and our people will thrive.
这种说法之所以流行，是因为我们习惯于极端化思维，人们常常以极端的方式倡导和宣传。
That's the narrative out there because we think in extremes and people often advocate and evangelize in extremes.
因此，市面上有很多所谓的文化专家，他们其实就是心肠柔软、情感化、主张做正确事情的人，希望你让世界变得更美好。
So there's a whole bunch of culture experts out there, quote unquote, that are really just, you know, bleeding heart, touchy feely, do the right thing folks that want you to make the world a better place.
因此，他们倡导诸如'在工作中做真实的自己'这样的理念。
And so they're advocate advocating for things like, bring your authentic self to work.
在我看来，这是个糟糕的主意。
My opinion, that's a terrible idea.
不要在工作中做真实的自己。
Do not bring your authentic self to work.
在工作中展现你的专业自我，而真实的自我可以回家跟丈夫倾诉。
Bring your professional self to work, and your authentic self can talk to your husband about that.
对吧？
Right?
有些人说我们需要这样做，比如DEI这件事。
There's the people who were saying we need to, you know, even the DEI thing, for example.
我们来谈谈DEI。
Let's talk about DEI.
让每个人感到被包容，这几乎是不言而喻的。
The idea that we need to make people feel included is pretty no brainer.
对吧？
Right?
在商业中追求思维多样性，这几乎是显而易见的，但人们却给它贴上标签，把它变成一个项目，聘请一位DEI负责人，有时还拨付预算，然后设定一堆指标。
The idea that we want diversity of thought in business is a no brainer, but people have taken that, slapped a label on it, made it a program, hired a DEI head, given it a budget or not a lot of the time, and then run a bunch of metrics.
但这并不会改变人们的思维方式和行为。
And that doesn't change the way people think and act.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以，如果你真的关心DEI，关键在于如何让人们相信这件事很重要，然后你才能真正推动改变。
And and so if you want if you care about DEI, it's about how do you get people to believe that that is important, and then you can move the needle on that.
但这些项目根本不起作用。
But these programs don't work.
所以文化倡导者们在外面说：做最好的自己。
So culture people are out there saying, be your best self.
做正确的事。
Do the right thing.
后果可能是利润会稍微减少，但归根结底，这才是正确的事。
Con the consequences may be a little bit of profitability, but that's the right thing at the end of the day.
而企业领导者看着这些人说：你们根本不懂经营企业是什么样子。
And business leaders are looking at those folks and saying, you guys have no idea what it's like to run a business.
事情根本不是这样运作的。
It's just not how it works.
我不想这样经营企业，因为如果我这么干，迟早会被要求离开。
It's not how I wanna run a business because if I run a business that way, I'll be asked to leave eventually.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，作为企业家，你或许可以咬紧牙关坚持到最后一刻，但这对你的业务并无帮助。
I mean, as an entrepreneur, maybe you can hold on with gritted teeth until the bitter end, but it's not gonna help your business.
所以让我来告诉你，这两者如何和谐共存，实际上双方都能因此变得更好。
So let me show you how the two can live in harmony and actually both can be better off together.
我们知道，业务中我们追求的是结果。
So we know that results are what we're looking for in business.
这简直就是一切的终极目标。
That's like the be all end all.
你可能是这个世界上最友善、最谦逊的领导者，但如果你没有取得成果，没有人会为你写一篇《哈佛商业评论》的案例，也不会有人向家人提起你所做的任何事，无论你表现得多么出色。
You could be the nicest, most humble leader on the planet, but if you're not getting results, no one's writing a Harvard Business Review case study about you, and no one's writing home about anything that you did no matter how wonderful you acted.
对吧？
Right?
因此，结果是领导力成功的终极标准。
So results are the be all end all of of leadership success.
我们知道，这些结果来自于你组织中人们的行动。
We know the results come from the actions of people at your organization.
所以大多数领导者就停在这里了。
So that's where most leaders stop.
他们只关注为了获得结果，我需要人们做什么，而这正是导致倦怠、疲惫、微观管理以及一种错觉的原因——以为你可以直接命令员工在工作中采取行动，就能获得结果。
They actually just focus on what do I need people to do in order to get the result, and that's what leads to burnout and exhaustion and micromanaging and this illusion that you can just mandate people to take action at work and that that will get you a result.
这是一种糟糕的领导方式。
That is a that's just bad leadership.
你必须问自己一个问题：是什么激励人们主动采取行动？
You gotta ask yourself the question, what motivates people to take proactive action?
是什么促使人们主动付出额外的努力，而你多么希望他们在工作中能给予你这种努力？
What moves people to offer that discretionary effort that you so much wish that they would give you at work?
答案是他们根深蒂固的信念。
And the answer is they're deeply held beliefs.
如果他们相信公司，相信你作为领导者，相信产品，并相信自己能够影响公司业绩，从而获得成就感，那么他们就会主动付出所有额外的努力，因为他们在这里工作感到满足。
If they believe in the company and they believe in you as a leader and they believe in the product and they believe in their ability to impact the bottom line and that makes them feel good, well, then they're gonna offer you all of the discretionary effort because they feel fulfilled by working here.
而你必须在这一层面上开展工作。
And that's the level that you have to operate at.
激发人们的信念。
Tapping into people's beliefs.
回到我的TEDx演讲，就是如何让人真正关心。
Going back to my TEDx talk, it's how to get people to give a shit.
你必须让他们相信，他们在意你们公司正在做的事情。
You have to get them to believe that they care about what your company is doing.
如果他们不在乎，那他们只是敷衍了事，已经默默离职，你的盈利能力就会受损。
And if they don't care, then they're just phoning it in and they've quiet quit and your profitability suffers.
所以作为领导者，你如何触及这一层信念呢？我们的所有信念都源于我们经历过的经验。
So as a leader, how you tap into that belief layer is all of our beliefs come from the experiences that we've had.
对吧？
Right?
我们与老师、家人、学校、前雇主以及你所经历的那些经验，塑造了我所持有的信念，正是这些信念促使他们采取行动，也才能让你获得结果。
The the experiences we had with our teachers, with our family, at school, with our past employers, with you, those experiences shape the beliefs I hold, and that's what gets them to take action, and that's what gets you a result.
因此，你必须协调好所有这些要素。
So you have to align all of those elements.
作为领导者，你无法真正控制你的员工，但你可以控制为他们创造的体验。
You as a leader cannot really control your people, but you can control the experiences that you create for them.
当你有意识地创造能够塑造正确信念的体验时，他们就会采取你希望他们采取的行动，从而让你获得成果。
And when you create intentional experiences that will shape the right beliefs so that they take the right action that you want them to take so that you can get a result.
你们会发现，我们与斯坦福大学的研究表明，这能带来四倍的盈利能力。
You unlock, we studied this with Stanford, four x profitability.
我的意思是，那些陷入‘我必须做什么’这种行动陷阱中的公司，在我们为期三年的研究中，平均只增长了10%。
I mean, the companies that were stuck in like that action trap of just what do I gotta do, they grew on average in a study we did over three years, 10%.
而那些在信念层面运作的公司，在同一三年期间，增长了42%。
Companies that operated at the belief layer, they they, at the same three year period, grew by 42%.
因此，当你在信念层面运作时，就能实现四倍的增长。
So it's four x growth when you operate at that belief level.
顺便说一句，你的员工会真正感到充实并对他们所做的工作充满兴趣，因为这正是他们所相信的。
And, oh, by the way, your people will actually be super fulfilled and interested in the work they're doing because it's what they believe.
所以，利润和员工或文化完全可以共同繁荣，而不是把大笔钱花在纳帕的度假上——比如包下热气球、办个披萨派对、一起喝得烂醉，然后说‘他们开心了’。
So here's where profitability and people or culture can both thrive instead of let's put a bunch of money into a Napa retreat where we're gonna fly everyone in a hot air balloon and give them a pizza party and get wasted together so that they're, quote, happy.
然后我们回到工作中，却发现如何真正影响结果的方式没有任何改变，反而让你花了很多钱。
And then we go back to work and nothing has changed in how we actually impact results and actually cost you a bunch of money.
那里有很多内容需要梳理。
So there's a lot to unpack there.
所以你开始思考信念与……之间的区别。
And so you go into the idea of beliefs versus, hey.
我要给你办个派对。
I'm gonna throw you a party.
我的问题是，道德准则在哪里发挥作用？
My question is where does ethos come into?
招聘又在哪里发挥作用？
Where does hiring come into?
当我们谈到多元化、公平与包容（DEI）以及所有这些话题时，当你身处一个小型企业，比如只有九到十个人的团队，却能做到每年一亿美元的营收，而那些庞大的公司却充斥着低效。
And also when we talked about DEI and all of that, when you get into a situation and you're a smaller business, when, you know, we've got a couple people that they're nine, ten people shops, and they're doing a $100,000,000 a year versus these behemoths of companies that are just so inundated with ineffectiveness.
对吧？
Right?
因为归根结底，在我的世界里，真正执行的是人，是那些付诸行动的人。
Because at at the end of the day, it's the people who execute on in my world, it's the people who execute.
计划我们稍后再定。
We'll figure out the plan later.
我们先行动。
We execute.
我们不会坐在那儿问：你漂亮吗？
We're not gonna sit there and say, are you pretty?
你友善吗？
Are you nice?
你感到满足吗？
Do you feel fulfilled?
我们行动，而且我们按这个标准来招聘。
We execute, and we hire on that level.
所以这是一个完全不同的生态系统，一种完全不同的价值观，因为我们要么执行，要么就无法养活组织里的其他人。
So it's a it's a completely different ecosystem, and it's a completely different ethos because either we execute or I can't feed someone else in the organization.
我们这样做时，非常简单。
It's very simple as we do this.
所以，如果你感到满足，那很好。
So, like, if you're fulfilled, that's great.
这真可爱。
That's adorable.
我非常喜欢这一点。
I I love that.
我会尽最大努力满足你的需求，尽管你可能受成就感驱动，而其他人则可能受确定性或其他需求驱动。
I'm gonna try my best to meet your needs even though there's a hierarchical needs that you might be driven by significance, while this one might be driven by certainty or wherever they are on that that scope.
作为管理组织的人，我必须平衡这些需求。
As a as someone who runs organizations, I've gotta be balancing that.
但归根结底，如果有人不满足，对我来说更重要的是确保我们达成目标，以便养活其他人的孩子。
But at the end of the day, if someone isn't fulfilled, I it's more important for me to make sure that we're hitting numbers so I can feed that other person's kids.
这就是我的职责。
That's that's my job.
我必须确保这些人能达到我们的目标，这样我才能支付他们的开销。
I have to make sure that these people are we hit our goals so I can make sure I pay for their things.
当涉及到这一点时
When it comes into this
所以，如果你的团队中有一个人不满足，他们能给你100%的努力吗？
So, like, if you have someone who's not fulfilled working on your team, are they giving you a 100%?
所以我从不要求任何人给我100%。
So I don't ever expect anyone to give me a 100%.
我认为这就是区别。
I think that's the difference.
所以对于这些人，我不认为任何人真的会付出100%。
So people in it I don't think anybody ever would give a 100%.
因为如果我走进去，请纠正我，如果我错了。
Because if I walked in and please correct me if I'm wrong.
如果一个员工真的100%投入，那他 probably 戴着绿帽子，身高只有一英尺半，因为他是个小精灵。
If an employee is absolutely 1000% giving me a 100%, they probably are wearing a green hat and are about a foot and a half tall because they're a leprechaun.
他们不存在。
They don't exist.
大多数人只是勉强完成工作，以保住饭碗或摆脱下一个让他们头疼的问题。
Most people are going in and they're executing regrettably enough to keep their jobs or to meet that next pain hit that they wanna get rid of.
所以，我希望达成下一个目标。
So, hey, I want that next goal.
我希望得到下一件东西。
I want that next thing.
他们之所以这么做，是因为这份工作不会是他们的第一份工作，也很可能不是最后一份。
That's what they're trying to do because I will not be their first job, and I probably won't be their last job.
这就是现实。
That's just the end of the day.
对吧？
Right?
这其实是个语言问题。
Call it's this is the language thing.
就这么说吧。
Call it that.
他们只是做够了保住工作的份内事。
They're executing enough to keep their jobs.
对吧？
Right?
他们本可以付出更多，那种自愿的额外努力，比如主动提出创意或改进流程，这些超出了保住工作所必需的范围，正是这些让他们成为佼佼者。
There's more that they could give that would be that discretionary effort, the extra proactive nature of idea generating or process improvement, the thing that goes beyond the scope of what they need to do to keep their jobs, which makes the a player.
对吧？
Right?
这就是你希望每个人都成为的那种顶尖人才，只是他们有时更难管理，因为他们期待更多，也产出更多。
That's the top talent person that you want all of them to be like that, that are sometimes a little bit more to manage because they expect more, because they produce more.
对吧？
Right?
所以，那些做到这些的人，他们在工作中获得了满足感。
So the people who are doing that are fulfilled in the work that they're doing.
那些心不在焉的人只做最起码的工作，或者连最起码的都不做。
The people who are checked out are doing the bare minimum or not.
我不是在说那种‘我爱你，你爱我’式的满足感。
So I'm not talking about fulfilled as in I love you, you love me.
我说的是我想实现这里的目标。
I'm talking about I want to fulfill the goals here.
这才是激励我的原因，因此我会做得比最起码的要求更多。
That's what moves me, and therefore, I'm gonna do more than just the bare minimum.
这种现象发生在他们的内在信念层面。
And that happens at their inner belief layer.
你不能靠控制狂的方式逼迫他们做到这一点。
You can't just control freak people into doing that.
他们会像滑雪一样，只做最起码的工作，直到你指出他们的问题。
They're gonna ski you know, they're gonna do the bare minimum until you call them out on it.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们实际上在谈论同一件事。
So we're actually talking about the same thing.
我觉得我们达成一致了。
I think we agree.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的问题是，我们在招聘阶段什么时候做这件事？
But My question is when when do we do it at the hiring level?
对吧？
Right?
所以是在招聘阶段。
So hiring level.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
所以当我们谈论操作员、海豹突击队或特种部队操作员，甚至小型企业时，我们招聘得非常快。
So we talk about this in in when you talk about operators or in the SEAL communities or special forces operators or even small businesses, we we hire very quickly.
我们解雇得更快。
We fire faster.
它发生得非常、非常快，因此在我的世界里，我会激励人们。
It happens very, very and we so in my world, I will incentivize people.
如果我雇了你，而你不喜欢这份工作，我会付你90天的工资让你离开。
If I hire you and you don't like it, I will pay you ninety days to go away.
因为你是对的。
Because you're yeah.
处理你所花的成本会比我直接让你走更高。
I it will cost me more money than to deal with you.
所以我们处理得非常、非常快。
So we move through it very, very quickly.
我们对人们有明确的期望。
We hold people to certain expectations.
我们会走过去问：你觉得你会做什么？
We walk through and say, what do think you're gonna do?
这就是你喜欢做的事。
This is what you like to do.
搞定。
Boom.
走吧。
Let's go.
这里有一个概念，就是有个人，有本书。
There's there's this whole concept that there's a guy there's a book.
这是一本由乔科·威尔洛克写的很棒的书。
It's a great book by a guy named Jocko Willock.
这本书叫《绝对责任》，它强调下放 decentralized command。
It's called Extreme Ownership, and it's forcing down decentralized command.
我发现，在高端企业环境中，这种方法执行得并不好，因为大公司就像一艘庞大的巨轮，行动迟缓，而相比之下——
And what I have found is in high end corporate environments, it it doesn't execute well because there's it's just such a big moving ship versus Yeah.
一艘小船。
A smaller vessel.
所以我很好奇，你们在研究和反馈中提到的内容，因为在我的世界里，我们从不担心多元化、公平与包容。
So I'm curious with the studies and the stuff that you've been giving back because on my world, we don't worry about DEIs.
我们规模不够大。
We just we're not big enough.
我们行动太快了。
We're just we're moving too quickly.
我们会随时招聘最适合这份工作的人。
We're gonna hire the best person for the job at the time.
如果他们能持续出色地完成工作，就能留下。
And if they continue to execute, they get to stay.
如果不能，我就祝他们前程顺利。
If they don't, I wish them the best on their journey.
所以我们行动非常迅速。
So we move very quickly.
我对你的研究和你所推广的内容很好奇，因为你做过我们这边的事务。
I'm curious with your research and what you've sold, because you've done our house stuff.
你也在甲骨文做过项目。
You've done stuff at Oracle.
你所处理的是像甲骨文这样的巨型组织，里面有着众多不同性格的人和复杂的环节，这与大多数员工少于一百人的小企业截然不同。
These are big behemoths of that you're moving around with a lot of different personalities, a lot of different moving pieces versus most small businesses that are less than a 100 employees.
你有没有发现这两者之间的差异？你是如何在这种环境中执行的？
Have you seen a difference between the two, and how do you execute in that environment?
是的。
Yeah.
显然存在差异，因为在大规模组织中，你需要解决的问题不同，这更像是一种数量游戏。
So there's obviously a difference because at scale, there are different problems that you need to solve for, and so it's more of a numbers game.
在小型组织中，你可以更精准地施策。
And you can be more, you can use a scalpel in a smaller organization.
我们是一家小公司。
What I do we're a small organization.
对吧？
Right?
我们有40名员工，再算上40名员工。
We have 40 employees, and then let's call it 40 employees.
所以当我招聘时，我们首先完全放弃了‘文化契合’这个概念，因为很多创业者想到‘文化契合’时，其实想的是‘我和谁一起去喝啤酒？’
So when I'm hiring someone, what we've done is, first of all, we've completely abandoned the idea of culture fit because culture fit is what a lot of entrepreneurs think of when they think of you know, they're thinking, who would I wanna get a beer with?
他们谈论文化契合时，真正意思就是这个。
That's what they really mean when they're talking about culture fit.
这纯粹是在浪费你的时间。
And that's so completely a steal your time.
而且还要回头看看。
And also Go back.
这很可能让你招到的都是和你一模一样的人，那你想想，为什么？
It's probably gonna have you end up hiring people that are just like you, which can be You go why?
告诉你，你已经拥有自己了。
Told that you already have you.
你难道不想找一个和你不一样、能让你学到东西的人吗？
Wouldn't you like to get someone not like you and you might learn Right.
所以我们关注的是使命契合。
So we focus on purpose fit.
所以当我面试时，第一个问题就是：你的为什么？
So when I do an interview, the first question I ask is what's your why?
然后他们通常会给我一个套路化的回答，听起来像是根据职位要求编出来的。
And then they usually will give me some kind of canned you know, what sounds good based on what the job role is.
懂吗？
Know?
比如，我被产品营销深深打动了，之类的，这完全是胡扯。
Like, I'm really moved by product marketing or whatever, and it's so BS.
对吧？
Right?
所以我就会说，不行。
So then I say, no.
不行。
No.
真的，你的为什么是什么？
Really, what is your why?
比如，你为什么每天早上醒来？
Like, why do you wake up in the morning?
你觉得你生命的意義是什麼？
What do you think the meaning of your life is?
我会引导他们更深入地敞开心扉，谈谈他们的为什么。
And I get them to to open up at a deeper level about what their why is.
然后我会告诉他们我们公司在整体层面的为什么。
Then I tell them our why at the at the company level.
所以我们的公司使命是通过激发你的改变来推动成果。
So our company's purpose is to drive results by activating your change.
如果你加入我们公司，帮助我们实现这一目标，你能看到这如何与你的使命相连吗？
If you were to join us at this company and help us try and achieve that purpose, do you see how it would tie to your why?
当你帮助我们实现组织使命时，你是否觉得你在实现自己的人生使命？
Does that do you feel like you're fulfilling your personal mission by helping us with this organization's mission?
现在我们讨论的是真正能激励一个人、打动一个人的事情——是什么让他们真正关心，而不是仅仅成为执行机器。
And now we're talking about what really fulfills someone, what moves someone, where they're going to actually give a shit rather than just, okay, I'm gonna be an execution junkie.
如果你根本不关心自己所做的事情，最终你一定会倦怠。
And I'm then eventually you get to burn out if you don't actually care about what you're working on.
对吧？
Right?
因此，当我们试图在组织内推动问责制时，该如何去做？
So it's how do you create when we're trying to drive accountability within organizations.
我问领导者的第一两个问题是：第一，你在成果方面做得怎么样？
The first two questions I ask a leader is number one, how are you doing on results?
因为这比任何事情都重要。
Because that's what matters more than anything.
然后第二个问题是，你的精力水平如何？
And then number two, and how's your energy level?
因为对很多人来说，要实现他们想要的结果，是非常消耗精力的。
Because for a lot of people to drive the results that they wanna hit, it's incredibly draining.
这对创业者来说也很消耗精力。
And it's draining for you as an entrepreneur.
想象一下，对于那些不拥有公司的人，这该有多耗能。
Imagine how draining it is for the people who don't own the company.
因此，你必须找到一种不会最终耗尽的责任感方式。
And so you have to find a way to take accountability that doesn't eventually run out.
我们真正要做的是将这种使命感作为动力。
And that's really what we're about doing is creating that that purpose as fuel.
使命感让人早上醒来时会想：我又全身心投入了。
The purpose is what gets people to wake up in the morning and be like, I'm all in again.
那么，你在招聘时有没有使用什么筛选标准？
So so do you have a filter that you use when you're hiring people?
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因为这些明智的东西，伙计，我们可以让内华达州来处理这个。
Because the wise stuff, boy, we could get Nevada on that one.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
我并不是想在这个问题上跟你对抗。
I don't mean to be confrontational on this one.
我写过一本关于这个的书。
I wrote a book about it.
我确实写过。
The I did.
我有一个四星上将为我背书。
I had a four star general back me on this one.
如果你想要，我可以给你。
I will I will give you that if you want.
但我们可以深入讨论这个。
But the we can go into that.
我的问题是，你们有没有什么筛选标准？
The question I have is, is there a filter that you have?
当你觉得，好吧。
When you're like, okay.
我经历过整个招聘过程。
I've gone through the the the hiring.
我理解企业文化。
I understand culture.
我知道文化契合这种说法在任何方面都没有意义。
I understand that culture fit doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form.
我不想招一个和我类似的人，因为他们对问题的回答很可能和我差不多。
I don't wanna hire someone like me because they're probably gonna give me a similar answer to a problem.
我需要的是对同一个问题有不同的答案。
I need a different answer to the same problem.
我希望这个过程能包含更多维度。
I need this to have more aspects.
我需要有人直接站出来对我说：嘿。
I need someone to get in my face and say, hey.
不。
No.
这是你没看到的另一件事。
Here's this other thing you haven't seen.
我心想：完美。
I'm like, perfect.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这正是我们招聘所追求的。
That's what, you know, we're hiring for.
但在招聘之前，你有没有一个总体的筛选标准，比如说：
But do you have an overall filter before you hire someone and say, look.
这就是我们的标准。
This is our thing.
如果他们能做到这一点，那些听这个的人就能用得上。
If they hit this, that the, you know, the people who are listening to this could use.
技能。
Skills.
我的意思是，我们不会像传统方式那样，设置学位要求之类的来衡量一个人是否合格。
I mean, what we don't do is, for example, degree requirements and all of these old school ways of measuring whether someone is quote qualified.
我们注重技能和潜力。
We do skills aptitude.
一旦确认了基本技能，接下来就是与使命的契合度。
And once we have that basic skills confirmed, then it's purpose fit.
这才是筛选标准。
That is the filter.
我的意思是，如果他们关心我们所从事的工作，我觉得我能从他们身上获得远多于那些只是看起来不错、适合团队的人的回报。
I mean, if they care about the kind of work that we're doing, I feel like I'm gonna get a lot more out of them than if they're just, you know, just like me and seem nice and could be part of the crew here.
对。
Right.
我们使用的筛选标准是：如果你是招聘经理，假设你生病了，天啊，但这个人必须顶上他的岗位，才能确保你的孩子有饭吃，你会雇用这个人吗？
The the filter we use is if you're hiring this person, if you're the hiring manager and you got sick, god forbid, and this person was needed to perform their job to make sure your children could eat, would you hire that individual?
我们发现，将这个筛选标准引入我们的体系后，我们的招聘流程变得更加有效。
And we have found that adding that filter into our ecosystem has made our hiring process more effective.
在我们开始引入这个筛选标准后，人员留存率通常保持在80%到87%之间，而过去我们那种高流失率的做法，只是让人被动地应付这种问责。
We we keep people normally on an 80 to 87% rate when we started adding that filter versus our churn and burn that we used to do, is making people look through that accountability.
你们如何检查这一点？
How do you check for that?
这并不是一种很科学的方法。
So it's a it's for less of a less scientific way.
但当你逐步推进时，你会问他们关于绩效的问题。
But as you've gone through it, you've asked them about performance.
比如，嘿。
Like, hey.
这是一个问题。
This is a problem.
你会怎么做？
How would you do it?
好的。
Okay.
如果发生这种情况，你会怎么解决？
If this happens, how would you fix that?
所以我们不去追究他们的原因，而是关注他们有哪些有效的资源。
So instead of going after their why, we go into what their effective resources are.
在这种情况下，你会怎么做？
What would you do in this situation?
我们会进行模拟演练，然后给他们测试。
We do mocks, then we give them tests.
所以，听好了。
So, hey, here's the thing.
我们正在处理这件事。
We have this going on.
我们会付钱让你做这个测试。
We'll pay you to do the test.
去运行这个。
Go run this.
把你认为可能出现的结果告诉我。
Get back to me on whatever that result you would think would be.
无论你做什么，无论你是谁，如果你是面试官、是老板，你永远都不会认为对方的结果是100分。
That result, no matter what you do, no matter who you are, if you're the interviewer, if you're the owner, if you're ever you're never gonna think the other person's result is a 100%.
结果就是结果。
It just is what it is.
这没关系。
That's okay.
即使他们达到了80%，也是成功。
They even if they get to 80%, that's a win.
这简直就是全垒打。
That's a that's a that's a grand slam.
因为正如你之前所说，我们给自己贴上标签，比如。
Because as you said before, you know, we label ourselves as, hey.
我是X世代。
I'm Gen X.
我是最棒的，或者我是婴儿潮一代。
I am the best, or I'm a boomer.
我真想成为那样，因为我特别想成为最伟大的一代。
I wanna be that because I I would love to be in the greatest generation.
我觉得，对他们来说，他们整天都是赢家。
I was like, that that to me is they win all day long.
问题是，他们没有空调和互联网。
The problem is they didn't have air conditioning and the Internet.
所以我想，好吧。
So I'm like, okay.
从时间上来说，那方面有点不一样。
Time wise, it's a little bit different on that.
但对我来说，当你深入进去时，就会觉得，好吧。
But for me, as you go into it, it's going to, okay.
我总是觉得自己还能做得更好。
I'm always gonna feel I can do better.
然后我遇到一个完全碾压我的人，我就想，好吧。
Then I find someone who just completely kicks my butt, and I'm like, okay.
那我该怎么让这个人成为团队的一员呢？
Now how do I get this person as part of the team?
而这将成为组织中的合作伙伴，或者类似的东西。
And this that's gonna become partners in the org or or something of that nature.
我们会让他们通过一些测试。
We run them through tests.
因为如果我们只是坐在一起谈论一些空洞的口号，比如你感觉如何、你的动力是什么之类的东西，我们并没有测试他们的实际执行力。
Because if we're sitting about and we're talking about platitudes about how do you feel and what is your why and those type of things, we haven't tested their their execution.
所以我们已经调整了招聘流程，心想，好吧。
So we've gone through and we've changed the hiring process saying, okay.
如果这是我们目前面临的一个真实问题，你会怎么解决它？
If this is a real problem we have right now, how would you have fixed it?
你会怎么做？
What would you have done?
所以你认为人们的目标在招聘中并不重要吗？
So you think that people's why doesn't matter in hiring?
我希望这只是我一个人的情况，但历史上第一位也是最高荣誉的四星将军是一位女性，至今只有234位这样的将军。
So I wish it was just me, but the youngest for the the first and highest decorated four star general that was a female, there's only been 234 of them.
我们刚刚做了一场演讲。
We just did a talk.
我们登上了舞台。
We were on stage.
我问了她。
And I I asked her.
我说，你知道吗，我写了一本关于‘谁比为什么更重要’的书。
I said, you know, I wrote a book about that who is more important than why.
我的意思是，帮帮我理解这个。
I mean, help me out with this.
你曾指导过人们处理这样的情况：如果我搞砸了，我们会损失几亿美元。
You you directed people in situations where if I mess up, we lose a couple $100,000,000.
这没什么大不了的。
It's it's okay.
这也不是世界末日。
It's not the end of the world.
如果她搞砸了，我们都会死。
If she messes up, we all die.
对吧？
Right?
所以这只不过是比赛结束了。
So it's just the end of the ballgame.
我问了她。
I asked her.
我说，我去做什么，为什么重要？
I said, what I go, how important is why?
因为我已经多次经历过这场斗争。
Because I've I've had this battle multiple times.
她问，是谁影响了为什么？
And she goes, who influences the why?
‘为什么’本身是无关紧要的。
The why by itself is irrelevant.
比如，我曾经在台上，我不会说出那个人的名字，但这个人认为妻子是最重要的。
So for example, I I was on stage, and I will not say said person's name, but this individual believed that the wife was the most important thing.
当时我的麦克风是开着的。
And I was hot mic'd at the time.
我走下舞台时，心想：天哪。
And I was walking off the stage, and I'm like, oh god.
当时我的麦克风是开着的。
And I was hot mic'd.
他问：‘那是什么？’
And he's what was that?
我当时想：‘天啊，对不起，兄弟。’
I was like, oh, I'm dude, I am so sorry.
我道歉。
I apologize.
我说：‘我，’他说：‘不。’
I'm and he said, no.
不。
No.
你刚才表现得太棒了。
You just crushed it.
我很想听听你的见解。
I'd love to hear your insight.
我说：‘不，兄弟。’
I said, no, dude.
我这样做真的很不尊重人。
It's really disrespectful when I do this.
这是你一生的事业。
This is your life's work.
请让我走到一边，闭嘴，就当自己是个十足的傻瓜吧。
Please let me go step over here and shut up and just be viewed as a complete a hole.
他却说，不。
And he's like, no.
不。
No.
我真的很想听听你的见解。
I'd really love your insight.
我说，嗯，我在临终关怀机构工作了八年，看着人们死去。
I'm like, well, I spent eight years in a hospice watching people die.
我们先举个手示意一下。
Let's first show a raise of hands.
有多少人希望自己身材更好，并且知道为什么要变得更好？
How many how many want to be in better shape and know why they wanna be at a better shape?
所有人都举起了手。
All their hands went up.
我说，很好。
I said, cool.
有多少人希望拥有更好的关系、更美好的性生活？
How many people wanna know why they wanna have a better relationship, better sex life?
所有人的手都举起来了。
All the hands went up.
太棒了。
So cool.
那么，这个房间里有多少人知道为什么自己想要比现在多赚两百万到五百万美元？
And then how many people in this room know why they wanna make 2 to $5,000,000 more than they're making right now?
所有人都举起了手。
All their hands went up.
我说，很好。
I said, cool.
有多少人真的做到了？
How many people have actually done it?
然后大家的手都放下了，这就是现实。
And the hands went, this is what it is.
我知道，明白你的理由并不会改变什么。
And I'm like, knowing your why doesn't change.
你必须改变你自己。
You have to change who you are.
所以，如果你知道为什么要戒烟，你还是不会戒烟。
So if you know why you wanna quit smoking, you're not gonna quit smoking.
我们有这方面的数据。
We have this we have the data on this.
如果你把自我认同转变为‘我是个不吸烟的人’，事情就会改变，然后你就会有动力朝着那个方向前进。
If you change the identity to I am a nonsmoker, things change, and then and you have a drive towards that.
动机本身会受到身份的影响。
The why by itself gets influenced by the who.
因此，身份遗憾地比动机更重要。
So who regrettably, is more important than why.
用她的话来说，博萨德将军，身份影响着动机。
To to put in her words exactly, Borsard General, who influences the why.
仅靠动机本身是徒劳的。
The why by itself is wasted.
所以你在谈论一种存在状态，而不是一种行为状态？
So you're talking about a state of being rather than a state of doing?
不。
No.
我在谈论一种身份。
I'm talking about an identity.
比如，是的。
So for example, yeah.
我谈的是身份。
I'm talking about identity.
当你在工作中执行任务时，你是你的一种版本。
So you're one version of you when you're executing in your job.
对吧？
Right?
当你在做那些调皮的事时，比如 whatever it is，你又是另一种版本的自己。
You're another version of you when you're having naughty neck at that, whatever it is.
如果你把这两种身份搞混了，工作会变得非常非常有趣或不恰当，而调皮裸体时间会变得非常非常无聊。
If you switch those up, work is gonna be really, really interesting or inappropriate, or naughty naked time is gonna be really, really boring.
对吧？
Right?
这就是它的高层次理念。
So that's the high level idea of it.
要更深入一点，存在一个你作为不可阻挡的力量的版本。
To get more into it, there's a version of you that is an unstoppable force.
当你受到挑战时，会出现另一个版本的你。
There's a version of you that if you're challenged, will come out.
这是两种不同的版本。
Those are two different versions.
我们每个人都有另一个版本，总觉得不够好。
There's another version of all of us that don't think we're enough.
不够高，不够矮，不够金发，不够曲线玲珑，不管是什么。
Not tall enough, not short enough, not blonde enough, not not curvy enough, whatever it is.
这些不同的版本都有各自的原因，而且都被滋养着。
Each one of those have different whys, and they're both fed.
能够随时调动这些版本，才是创造转变的关键。
Being able to tap into those on command is what creates the movement.
以迈克尔·乔丹为例。
Take Michael Jordan.
迈克尔·乔丹在特定的环境中以非常特定的方式行事。
Michael Jordan is an individual who operates a very specific way in very specific environments.
你可以随时开启或关闭它，而他在吃饭或和朋友闲逛时并不需要那个版本的自己。
You could turn it on and off and on and He doesn't need that version of him when he's eating or hanging out with his friends.
对吧？
Right?
那是另一个版本。
It's a different version.
能够随时控制它的开启与关闭，比我们找到的动机更能影响结果。
Being able to turn it on and off on command will influence results more than what we have found a why.
因为我们找到的动机只是陈词滥调。
Because why's we found the platitudes.
它们不起作用。
They don't work.
你的身份认同更有力量。
Who you are as an identity has more power.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
So that's interesting.
因此，我们在斯坦福大学商学院的研究中，想要衡量哪种类型的文化最能获胜。
So we did in our research at Stanford Graduate Business School, we wanted to measure the type of culture that wins the most.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是注重执行的文化吗？
Is it an execution focused culture?
是注重问责的文化吗？
Is it an accountable culture?
是以人为本的文化吗？
Is it a people first culture?
你知道的，我们测试了八大类文化。
Is it you know, there's eight kind of big categories of culture that we tested.
只有一种文化与收入增长显著相关，那就是适应性文化。
And there was only one that was significantly correlated with increased revenue growth, and it was an adaptive culture.
所以如果你放大视角，就会意识到真正重要的并不是执行导向、以人为本或问责文化。
So if you zoom out, you realize it's not actually execution focused or people first or accountable culture.
真正重要的是能够在这几种文化之间切换，然后再切换回来的能力。
It is the one that is able to switch from one to the other and then back again.
具有适应性意味着能够根据组织的需求、竞争格局、资金状况等外部环境的变化灵活调整。
To be adaptive is to be able to pivot according to the context of the needs of the organization, the you know, whatever is going on with your competitive landscape, your funding circumstances, and so on.
所以当你能够适应变化时，这才是真正获胜的关键。
So when you can adapt, that is actually what wins.
但在同一项研究中，我们还分析了243家公司在三年内的收入增长情况，以了解这一点。
In the same research, though, we looked at 243 companies and their revenue growth over the course of three years to see, okay.
我们考察了它们的使命。
We looked at their purpose.
我们考察了它们的战略——也就是执行层面，以及它们的文化。
We looked at their strategy, which is the execution piece, and then we looked at their culture.
而那些取得最大成功的公司，正是在这些方面保持一致的公司。
And the ones that won the most were the ones that were aligned across those things.
所以当你拥有时，也许是‘是的，而且’。
So when you have maybe it's yes and.
对吧？
Right?
也许这并不重要，重要的是执行。
Maybe it's not why doesn't matter, execution matters.
它它
It it
对。
Right.
我只是觉得这是一种顺序。
I just think it's an order.
我觉得这是一种‘是的，而且’。
I think it's a yes and.
百分之百。
100%.
这是一个‘是的，而且’。
It's a yes and.
对吧？
Right?
当你有一个与执行计划相一致、并与文化相一致的目标时，而我将文化定义为人们为取得成果而思考和行动的方式，你就所向披靡。
It's when you have a purpose that aligns with your execution plan and aligns with the culture, which I define as the way people think and act to get results, you're you're unstoppable.
但有时候，你对执行的需求会发生变化。
Sometimes, though, what happens is your need to execute shifts.
对吧？
Right?
技术进步突然让我们拥有了人工智能。
Technological advancement suddenly now we've got AI.
我们必须改变我们的执行方式、计划和方法，因为我们处在一个全新的世界中。
We've gotta change our execution style and plan and approach because we're in a brand new world.
如果你的文化没有转变，或者你的目标没有转变，那么你现在就失去了对齐。
Well, if your culture doesn't shift or your purpose doesn't shift, well, now you're out of alignment.
研究结果正是如此。
And that's what the research showed.
当目标与执行保持一致时，三年内的成果增长是非一致情况下的三倍。
There was three times stronger results growth over the course of three years when you had alignment versus nonalignment.
所以，让我们同意，两者可能都很重要。
So let's agree that perhaps they could both be important.
你可能更侧重于执行。
You probably lean more heavily towards the execution.
我个人认为，如果在未来十年里，我致力于改善工作场所文化，让世界变得更好，并且取得了一定成功，即使只是中等程度，只要我实现了自己的人生意义，我也会比那些靠制造电动汽车赚了一大笔钱、却做着自己并不在乎的事情的人，感到更满足。
I am someone who, while at a personal level, right, if I spend the next ten years trying to make the world a better place with better workplace cultures and I'm moderately successful, but I was able to fulfill my why, I'll be more satisfied with those ten years at a personal level than if I was able to create a bunch of money creating electric cars and, you know, doing something that I don't really care about.
对吧？
Right?
但这只是我个人的偏好。
But that's just my personal preference.
而你可能更专注于推动成果。
Whereas you're probably more focused on driving results.
我更关注顺其自然、存在状态以及我的精神连接。
I'm a little bit more focused on surrender and the state of being and, you know, my spiritual connection.
我不知道。
I don't know.
但对我来说，感觉不一样。
But that's it feels different to me.
你所说的对我并没有太大吸引力。
What you're saying doesn't really appeal to me.
当然。
Absolutely.
适应能力可能是关键。
Ability to adapt is probably the key.
对吧？
Right?
接近了。
Close.
我的意思是，我们之前做了几次跳跃，也做了一些调整。
I mean, there's a there's a couple leaps that we did, couple brushes that we did there.
所以对我来说，我关注的是个人的身份以及他们想要什么。
So for me, I focused on the identity of the individual and what they want.
有些人希望让世界变得更美好。
Some people want to make the world a better place.
喜欢这个。
Love that.
有些人想买荒谬的汽车，赚一大笔钱。
Some people wanna buy ridiculous cars and make a bunch of money.
明白吗？
Okay?
无论什么能滋养你的内心，如果你的目标就是这个，只要能让你快乐就行。
Whatever feeds your cup, if that's that's your thing, whatever makes you happy.
当我从事这些工作时，真正驱动我的核心是，我想让那些永远不会见到我的人受益——我帮助一个人，这个人再帮助另一个人，那个人又帮助另一个人，也许最终有人为改变世界而开门。
What makes what what drives me on a core when I work with stuff is I wanna make it so that people who will never meet me, that I'm gonna help a guy who helps a guy who helps a guy who maybe holds the door open for the guy that changes the world.
我不需要通过重要性来充实自己。
I don't need the significance to fill my cup.
那根本不是驱动我的东西。
That's just not that's not what drives me.
我用一种完全不同的方式来充实自己。
I fill my cup up in a very different way.
了解我所合作的每个人的个性、他们的驱动力，以及他们是否愿意为彼此付出一切，这对我来说很重要。
Knowing each one of the identities of the people that I'm working with and what drives them, and if they are willing to bleed for each other, that becomes important for me.
这时候我就想，好吧。
That's where I'm like, okay.
你可能想去让世界变得更美好，这很棒。
You might wanna go and and make the world a better place and and awesome.
或者你可能想去赚比你花得完还多的钱，然后把一个人送上月球。
Or you might wanna go make more money than you ever can possibly spend and then put a man on on the moon.
我不在乎。
I I I don't care.
我真的不在乎。
I really don't care.
只要你对人友善，愿意帮助他们，我 genuinely 不关心你是如何达成目标的。
As long as you're nice to people and you help them out and you're I I I really don't authentically care how you get there.
只是尽量彼此友善一些。
Just try and be nice to each other.
但在一家公司里，我的职责是确保那些信任我、给我工作的人，能够得到保障，确保我能养活他们。
But in a business, my job is to make sure that the people that have trusted me to give them a job, to get is to make sure that I can feed them.
归根结底，我想确保他们能有饭吃。
At the end of the day, I wanna make sure they can eat.
我再次强调，我在一家临终关怀机构工作了八年，那里有350位单亲妈妈。
I spent, again, I spent eight years in a hospice with 350 single moms.
我的职责是确保她们的孩子能吃饱。
My job is to make sure that their kids could eat.
所以如果有人效率低下，我会说：很抱歉。
So if someone is ineffective, I'm like, I'm sorry.
你不能留下。
You you don't get to stay.
我得确保苏西能养活她的孩子们。
I've gotta make sure that Susie can feed her kids.
我需要确保这一点，所以我的行为完全是以保护我下面的人为驱动的。
I need to make sure that's so it's it's very driven by protecting the people underneath me.
这就是我的身份所在。
That's why I'm at my identity.
这就是我做事的方式。
That's that's how I run.
这才是驱动我的原因。
That is what drives me.
因为我有这种身份，所以它影响了我的动机。
So my because I have that identity, that influences the why.
至于其他方面，赚一大笔钱，我想，是不可能的。
The rest of it, the making a bunch of money, I guess, impossible.
我已经做到了。
I've done it.
我没事。
I okay.
接下来是它。
It's next.
接下来那件事是什么？
It's it's what what's the next thing with that?
所以我觉得这引出了我之前想问你的问题，那就是当你谈到使命时，你谈到的是组织的使命，而你确实这样做了。
So I think this goes into the question I was gonna ask you before this, which is when you talk about purpose, you talk about what is the org's purpose, and you and you do that.
你如何区分组织的使命与个人的使命？
How do you identify the difference between an org's purpose versus an individual's purpose?
组织是集体的。
Well, the org is the collective.
它是企业存在的理由，而个人的使命是他们找到的个人内在驱动力。
It's the why the business exists, and the individual's purpose is what they find their personal it's their prime mover.
你了解‘原动力’这个概念吗？
You know that concept of prime mover?
它是指你内心推动你前进的东西？
It's what is the thing inside you that's moving you?
那种在你体内引发行动的源头，我的已经发生了巨大变化。
The the origination of movement within you that that and and mine has changed significantly.
以前是金钱和权力。
It used to be money and power.
我曾经只想变得超级富有和出名，持续了十多年。
Like, I used to just wanna be super rich and famous, I mean, for more than a decade.
明白吗？
Okay?
后来我经历了一次灵性体验。
Now then I had a spiritual experience.
我还在一家机构做志愿者，呃，你其实并不算志愿者。
I'm also a volunteer at a well, I you don't volunteer.
对吧？
Right?
你在那儿工作。
You work there.
你是在临终关怀机构做志愿者吗，还是曾经做过？
Do you volunteer at the hospice, or you were
所以我先在那里工作，然后之后开始做志愿者，现在我还在其他很多组织做志愿者，很多是关于自然的，还有很多是帮助遭受家暴的女性。
you So I I so I worked I worked there, and then I volunteered after, and then I volunteer at other organizations, a lot of it with nature and a lot of it with people women who have been battered.
所以我的很多志愿工作都与此相关。
So a lot of my volunteer work come into.
好的。
Okay.
我是一名临终关怀陪伴者，我在一家无家可归者临终关怀机构做志愿者，所以我们……嗯。
So I'm an end of life doula, and I volunteer at a homeless hospice, and so we Mhmm.
有共同点。
Had in common.
但那是以前的我绝不会觉得值得花时间去做的事。
But that was something that old me never would have considered wasting my time at.
我看过一些照片。
I saw some pictures.
我当时想：哇，真恶心。
Why would I was like, ew.
无家可归的人？
Homeless people?
不。
No.
像，临终？
Like, dying?
真恶心。
Ew.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
我经历了一次灵性体验，由此形成了一个完全崭新的自我。
I had a spiritual experience that created a wildly new identity.
我的意思是，一个全新的身份逐渐形成并诞生了。
I mean, I had a completely new personhood evolve and get created.
对吧？
Right?
于是现在，我其实并没有参与其中。
And so then now and I didn't really have anything to do with it.
我认为这是一次灵性体验，真的有什么事情发生在了我身上。
I think it was a spiritual experience that was like something happened to me really.
现在我的使命是侍奉上帝和他人。
Now my purpose is to serve God and others.
赚钱、富有和有权势根本不再是目标了。
And the making money and the being being rich and powerful is like not the goal at all.
而且事实上，我认为这可能会把我引向错误的方向。
And in fact, I think it's probably gonna take me down the wrong path.
你知道吗？
You know?
我要重新调整的。
That I that I realign on.
我认真考虑过放弃我在这个世界的整个职业生涯，因为这感觉与灵性不一致。
I have seriously considered giving up my entire career in this world because it feels like not spiritually aligned.
你知道吗？
You know?
哦，我喜欢这个。
Oh, I love that.
去临终关怀环境工作。
Going and working in a hospice environment.
然后我会想，我怎样才能最好地服务上帝和他人？
Then I think about, well, how can I best serve God and others?
我确实有一个平台，也有能力产生影响。
And I do have a platform, and I do have the ability to influence.
也许我来到这里并非偶然，我注定要做些什么，你知道的，但也许不会。
And maybe I'm here not by coincidence, and I'm supposed to do something, you know, but maybe not.
我现在正在攻读神学硕士学位，等我毕业时。
I'm getting a master's in divinity right now when I graduate.
也许我会放弃一切。
Like, maybe I will give it all up.
走着瞧吧。
We'll see.
未来我可能会经历一次身份的彻底转变。
And I might have another radical transformation of my identity in the future.
不。
No.
我没有。
I don't.
嗯。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
不。
No.
谁会出现？
Who shows up?
所以我同意。
So I agree.
当时有个特别精彩的时刻，马特·达蒙刚赢得奥斯卡奖，他回到酒店房间，他的约会对象已经昏睡过去。
And it's there was this great moment where Matt Damon, he had just won the Oscar, and he's sitting back in his hotel room, his date was passed out.
这是他的故事，不是我的。
This is his story, not mine.
她躺在床上昏睡，而他坐在那里，盯着那座奥斯卡奖杯和剩下的披萨。
Was passed out on the bed, and he's sitting there looking at the Oscar and this pizza that was left over.
他有了这样一个时刻，想象自己人生的七十年后。
And he had this this moment where he fast forward, you know, seventy years in his life.
他成了一个老人。
He's an old man.
他说：如果我想象自己一生都在追求这个，我会感到多么空虚。
He said, he goes, if I imagine if I had spent my whole life trying to get this, how empty I would have felt.
因为无论我内心有多大的空洞，这个都无法填补它。
Because no matter how big the hole is inside me, this isn't gonna fill it.
我发现，那些成功、赚了巨额财富的人，最终都会到达这个时刻。
And I have found that people who have been successful, who have made an enormous amount of money, they get to that moment.
他们说：好吧。
They're like, okay.
这并没有让我充实。
That didn't fill me up.
那到底是什么？有些人想看到特蕾莎修女，去临终关怀机构做志愿者，所以正在听的各位，请去临终关怀机构做志愿者吧。
That's not what it And whatever it is, some people want to see Mother Teresa and volunteer at hospice, which please volunteer at hospice for those of you listening.
去吧，去做。
Go do it.
哪怕只做一周，也会从根本上改变你作为一个人的本质。
Just even for a week, it will fundamentally change who you are as a person.
它会帮助你面对我们每个人都必须面对的事情。
It will it will help you face something that we all are gonna have to do.
事情就是如此。
It is what it is.
我可能永远不会去印度餐厅，因为我讨厌印度菜，但我终究会死。
I I may never go into an Indian food restaurant because I don't like Indian food, but I'm gonna die.
所以我们每个人都会经历这件事。
So it's we all get to do that.
请在人生的某个时刻去做这件事。
Please do that at one point in their lives.
它会从根本上改变你是谁，有些人则希望回馈社会。
It will fundamentally shift who you are, and some people want to give back.
有些人只想独自完成这件事。
Some people just wanna do this alone.
就像，事情就是如此。
Like, I it just is what it is.
我只想过一种平静安宁的生活。
I just want to live a life of peace and quiet.
其他人则想成为总统，并对白宫做些奇怪的事情。
Other people want to become POTUS and do weird things to the White House.
所以我们有这些不同的选择，但我觉得你提到的旅程，你知道，一个新的身份出现了。
So we have these different things, but I think the journey you said, you know, you've a new identity showed up.
我在生活中正体会到这一点。
I'm finding that in life.
到目前为止，我的身份已经经常发生变化了。
My identity changes pretty routinely now at this point.
每五到八年，我就会想：哦，又出现了一个新的我。
Every five to eight years, I'm like, oh, there's a new version of me.
每次我年纪越大，我都跟别人说，当我30岁、35岁的时候，我以为自己什么都知道。
And each time as I get older, I think I tell people, when I was 30, 35, I thought I knew everything.
39岁的时候，我觉得自己真的什么都知道。
At 39, I knew I knew everything.
40岁的时候，我意识到自己是地球上最大的傻瓜，连系鞋带都不会，简直一无是处。
At 40, I knew I was the biggest idiot on the planet, I had no concept even had to tie my shoe, and I was absolutely useless.
随着人生经历的增多，我越来越觉得：其实我什么都不知道。
And the more I've experienced with life, I'm like, well, I don't know.
天啊。
Crap.
我想，我之所以做这些，主要原因就是：嘿。
I'm like, oh, I'm like, is the main reason I do these, which is like, hey.
让我们来聊聊这些吧。
Let's have these conversations.
这就是我的看法。
Let's this is what I think it is.
这就是你所认为的。
This is what you think it is.
太棒了。
Awesome.
真相在哪里？
Where is the truth?
因为每个故事都有三个版本。
Because there's three sides to every story.
你的版本，我的版本，还有真相。
Your side, my side, the truth.
拥有坦诚和真实的勇气来说：嘿。
And having the vulnerability and authenticity to say, hey.
听我说。
Listen.
我找到了这个。
I found this.
这项研究就是这么说的。
This is what this study said.
这就是我发现的。
This is what I found.
它们对不上。
They don't match.
酷。
Cool.
我们来挑挑它的毛病吧。
Let's put some holes in it.
我们来想想怎么做到这一点，看看会得出什么结果。
Let's let's figure out how to do that and see what how that comes with.
没错。
So Exactly.
我认为，当今领导者最大的误区之一就是以为自己无所不知。
And I think that's one of the greatest pitfalls for leaders today is they think they know everything.
他们喜欢根据自己认为最好的方式来指导他人。
And they like to direct people according to what they think is best.
哦。
So Oh.
他们真的很糟糕。
They have a So bad.
你知道吗？
You know?
我即将出版的新书《臣服式领导》讲的就是这个。
They and it's it's totally so the new book I have coming out, Surrender to Lead, is all about that.
在这里，‘臣服’并不是放弃、放手或举白旗。
Surrender in this context is not to give up or to let go or wave the white flag.
‘臣服’是放下你原本以为自己能掌控一切的幻觉，因为你根本无法掌控。
Surrender is to let go of the illusion that you had control in the first place because you didn't.
对吧？
Right?
当你理解了这一点，意识到自己并非最懂的，就可以放下掌控，信任团队成员所拥有的集体更高智慧。
And so when you understand that and you don't know best perhaps and you can surrender to the collective higher knowledge of the people on your team.
或者，如果你有灵性信仰，就可以向更高的力量臣服，让它引导你走上真正需要走的路，即使这条路与你原本设想的完全不同——无论你信奉什么，这正是关键所在。有趣的是，当我终于不再执着于致富和成名时，我反而开始赚到更多钱，变得比以往更出名了。
Or if you are spiritual, surrender to a higher power that will guide you down the path that you need to go down even if it's completely different than you thought or whatever it is that you are you know, whatever your belief system is, that's actually the unlock that, you know, interestingly, when I finally stopped trying to be rich and famous is when I started making more money and becoming more famous than people
以为。
thought.
每次都是。
Every time.
每次都是。
Every time.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道为什么，但每次都是。
I don't know why, but every time.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种因果报应。
It's something it's karma.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
但这也让人反感。
But it's also off putting.
你能感觉到当某人试图从你身上获取什么，或从宇宙中获取什么时，你会想：哦，我不感兴趣。
You can tell when someone is trying to get something from you or get something from the universe, and it's like, oh, I'm not interested.
当他们不试图从你身上获取什么时，你会更靠近一点。
When they're not trying to get something from you, you lean in a little bit.
你想要了解更多。
You wanna learn more.
所以这确实是有道理的。
And so it does make sense.
感觉违反直觉，但这确实是释放你目前未能获得的潜力的方式。
Feels counterintuitive, but it is actually how you unlock that potential that you're currently not getting.
是的。
Yeah.
是放下，放下自我，但别搞得太过情感化。
It's surrendering surrendering the ego without getting too touchy feely on this.
就是放手，说：你知道吗？
It is it's just letting go and saying, you know what?
我以为我们必须做A、B、C。
I thought that we had to do a b c.
我雇了这个人。
I've hired this individual.
我雇得不错。
I hired them well.
我们来看看他们做了什么。
Let's find out what they did.
而他们做了X、Y、Z。
And they did x y z.
我就说，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
有效果。
It worked.
我从来没这么想过。
I never thought of it that way.
太棒了。
Awesome.
放下那种‘生活是为我发生，而不是对我发生’的自我，接受这个过程，这是一件非常可怕的事，需要极大的脆弱性。
And letting go of that that ego of saying, alright, life's gonna happen for me, not to me, and I'm gonna go through this process, that is a very scary thing to do, is have that unbelievable vulnerability.
而在另一端，则是绝对的力量。
And then on the other side is absolute strength.
这种自我心态，是一种匮乏心态。
And that ego mindset, it's it's a scarcity mindset.
这是一种基于恐惧的心态，而这种心态如今已在企业美国盛行。
It's a fear based mindset, and that's the mindset that has taken hold in corporate America today.
这就是为什么今年年初以来我们已经经历了超过一百万次裁员，因为人们感到恐惧，试图提前掌控一个根本无法控制的局面。
It's why we've had over a million layoffs since the beginning of the year because people are scared, and they're trying to get ahead of and control a situation that is not controllable.
而解决方案是现在我们要变得温情关怀，与恐惧相反的是爱，要发自内心，要服务他人。
And the solution is now we will get touchy feely is the opposite of fear is love, is to come from your heart, is to be of service.
没错。
Absolutely.
给予，而不是索取。
Giving rather than taking.
而这才是真正赚大钱的方法。
And that's actually how you make a ton of money.
并不是说你在恐惧驱动的组织中工作就赚不到大钱，比如你为那些公司工作的时候。
Not to say you can't make a ton of money when you're running a fear based organization, like you're working for those organizations.
对吧？
Right?
我们都经历过。
We all have.
如果你不这么做，可能会有什么可能？
What could be possible if you didn't?
即使你没有成功，归根结底，你会不会过上更好的生活？
And even if you didn't succeed, like, at the end of the day, will you have lived a better life?
这仅仅是为了你自己。
That's just for you.
你知道的。
You know?
这只是一个加分项。
It's a nice to have.
但没错。
But yeah.
而且我认为自己比任何人都更清楚该做什么，或者我自以为知道答案。
And and it's the the idea that I know what to do more than anything else and or I know the answer.
当我摒弃了这种想法之后，因为我辅修过神学，而你正在攻读硕士学位，我们第一次通话前就聊过这一点，意识到‘我不知道’也是一个很好的答案。
Once I got rid of that, because I have a minor in theology, and and you're getting your master's, and we talked about this a little bit before we got on the call the first time, the idea that I don't know is a good answer.
没关系。
That's okay.
如果你的神是上帝、佛陀、安拉、魔法鸡、跳舞的猴子，或者漂浮的驴子——无论什么让你开心，都很好。
If you if your god is the if if it's it's god, Buddha Allah, the magic chicken, a dancing monkey, or a floating donkey, whatever makes you happy, awesome.
我不知道，这也行。
I don't know also works.
如果你说：我不知道。
If you're like, I I don't know.
我觉得那里可能有些东西。
I think there could be something there.
我也没有任何证据支持它。
I also don't have any evidence of it.
等等。
Wait.
你是个善良的人吗？
Are you being a good human being?
你是否在努力帮助他人？
Are you trying to help out other people?
你是否在努力提供服务？
Are you trying to deliver a service?
你是否在努力不做个混蛋？
Are you trying not to be a dick?
然后，我不在乎你相信什么。
I then I I don't care what you believe in.
我不在乎你是否相信一碗意大利面。
I don't care if you believe in a bowl of spaghetti.
只要你对遇到的人友善，真诚地出现并与他们建立联系，这非常重要。
As long as you're kind to the people you meet and show up honestly and connecting to them, hugely important.
所以对于人们来说，当然。
So for the people Certainly.
正如我们刚才讨论的，我会稍微拉回来一点，谈谈企业界和那些想要经得起验证的东西的创业者们。
As as we've gone down a track, I'll try to bring it back a little bit more for corporate America and for entrepreneurs out there who want things that are proven.
如果他们意识到自己的文化有点问题，自我意识有点过强，存在抵触和挑战，那么他们可以立即采取哪些措施？
What are things that if they realize their culture is a little wonky, if their ego has built it a little bit, if there is that resistance and that challenge, what are some of the things that they can implement immediately?
一些他们可以采取的步骤，比如：嘿。
Some steps that they go, hey.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我在这方面搞砸了。
I screwed up on this.
我知道。
I know it.
我必须放手。
I I gotta let go.
我得稍微放下我的自我。
I gotta release my ego a little bit.
我未必真的喜欢我的员工。
I don't necessarily love my employees.
我 definitely 不喜欢我所做的事情。
I definitely don't love what I do.
我喜欢结果。
I love the result.
我喜欢我能养活孩子，或者如果我们能尽快飞行的话，可以坐头等舱。
I love the fact that I can feed my kids, or I can fly first class if we can fly anytime soon.
但我必须放下这一切。
But I gotta let go of this.
我们都知道，无论你身处哪个组织，无论规模大小，这些方法都是经过验证、可以实施的？
What are some of things that we know that no matter what organization you are, no matter what size you're at, these are proven, you can do these things?
是的。
Yeah.
结果的首要驱动力是目标的清晰性。
So the number one driver of results is clarity of those results.
所以第一点，你的团队可能并没有你想象中那么清楚组织的首要、第二和第三目标是什么。
So number one, you may not have a team that is as clear as you think they are on what the number one, two, and three goals are for the organization.
我这么说是因为我可以告诉你一些故事，比如我曾参加过财富500强公司高管层的会议，环顾四周，看到这些薪酬丰厚、资历深厚、堪称美国顶尖领导者的高管们。
And I say this because I can tell you stories of being in an executive meeting with the c suite of Fortune 500 companies, and I'm looking around the room at these very well paid executives who are long tenured, theoretically the best leaders in America.
这可是真事。
This is a true story.
我们当时在一个药房零售商的会议室里。
We're in a room say, like a drugstore retailer.
对吧？
Right?
他们刚刚经历了一段困难时期。
They had just come off of struggle.
他们遇到了一些问题，姑且说是财务上的困境。
They were having some struggles, let's just say financially.
于是我们进到会议室，说：好吧。
And so we get in the room and we said, okay.
这里的首要目标是什么？
What's the number one goal here?
今年年底你希望实现什么目标？
What are you trying to to achieve by the end of this year?
他们说：利润率。
And they were like, profit margin.
很好。
Great.
你们的利润率目标是多少？
What profit margin goal do you have?
首席营销官举手说：3%。
And the CMO raises hand and he's like, 3%.
很好。
Great.
然后首席运营官说：其实不是。
And then the COO says, actually, no.
是5%。
It's 5%.
我们说：哦，好吧。
We're like, oh, okay.
CFO说：不对。
The CFO goes, no.
实际上是7%。
Actually, it's 7%.
于是我们看向CEO，场面显然很尴尬。
So we look over at the CEO, and it's awkward, obviously.
我们问：那利润目标到底是多少？
And we say, so what what is the profit margin goal?
他回答：嗯，大概在37%左右。
And he says, well, it's somewhere between 37%.
天哪。
Oh god.
我的天。
Oh my god.
大家都笑了。
Everyone starts laughing.
哇哦。
Woah.
事实上，这些数字都是真实的。
The reality is those were all true numbers.
对吧？
Right?
一个数字是他们告诉董事会的。
One number is the number they told the board.
一个数字是他们为员工奖金设定的，还有一个是他们实际写进预测中的。
One number is the number that they had set for employee bonuses, and one was what they actually put in their projections.
我的意思是，如果你的员工都不知道你想要实现什么，你怎么能要求他们对实现这些目标负责？他们又怎么能为此投入额外的努力？
I mean so if your people don't know what you're trying to achieve, how can you hold them accountable to achieving those things and how can they put their discretionary effort into that thing?
首先，你必须明确目标。
You gotta get clear on results, number one.
一旦你做到了这一点，往往会陷入行动陷阱。
Once you do that, the tendency is to then go into this action trap.
我们得做什么？
What do we gotta do?
对吧？
Right?
好吧。
Okay.
5%的利润率。
5% profit margin.
这一点我们非常清楚。
We're super clear on that.
我们得做什么？
What do we gotta do?
这是错误的做法。
And that's the wrong approach.
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