讨厌圣诞节与身体记忆

劳拉，当你受到虐待时，你的身体领地在那瞬间被夺走了，到现在还不属于你，而你值得拥有它。

When you were abused, Laura, you had territory in your body taken away from you in the moment, and it's still not yours yet, and you deserve that.

这需要时间。

It takes time.

你得回到那个状态，某种程度上，不劳无获。

You gotta get back there and to some extent, no pain, no gain.

你知道吗？

You know?

你不想直接跳进深水区，那会创伤你，但有指导的创伤工作，它并不总是愉快的。

You don't wanna just jump into the deep end that will traumatize you, but guided trauma work, you know, it's it's it's not pleasant all the time.

当珍妮娜训练我们时，她说我只有30%的时间做这项工作。

And when Janina was training us, she said, you know, I do this work 30% of the time.

它并不总是对的。

It's not always right.

就像，要让一个人能够处理创伤，很多事情都得恰到好处……

Like, so many things have to go right to have someone be able to do a trauma...

一个基于身体的

A a body based

创伤治疗，能够针对具体的创伤，而不是泛泛的那种。

Trauma session that that that addresses the the exact trauma, not just kind of a general.

嗯，我觉得那些不标榜自己是躯体治疗师的创伤专家，其实也懂得怎么做这类工作。

Well, I would say trauma experts that don't advertise as somatic therapists also understand how to do this kind of work.

他们不一定强调身体工作，但如果他们了解情绪在身体里的表现和记忆，他们就知道这些。

They don't they don't necessarily emphasize bodywork, but if they know anything about emotions in the body and memories, they know about all this stuff.

特别是如果你一开始就说明的话，他们会……

And especially if you said it up front, they would...

我想那会是个很好的试金石，如果你……

I guess that would be a good litmus test, you know, if you...

因为找躯体治疗师可能比找创伤专家更难。

Because trying to find a somatic therapist might be harder than finding a trauma specialist.

所以如果你找到了躯体治疗师，而且……

So if you found if you found somatic people and...

但即使你找到了做躯体疗法的人，你也不知道他们是否真的足够了解创伤。

But even if you found a somatic person, you wouldn't know if they really understood trauma well enough.

另外，如果你在德国，我最喜欢的创伤治疗方法之一在那里很常见，那就是……

Also, if you're in Germany, one of my favorite trauma treatments is really common there, which is the...

我记得它叫“黏土疗法”之类的，就是……

I think it's called the haematic clay field where you...

有点像沙盘疗法，但里面是一箱黏土，你可以把它弄湿或弄干，然后整个人进去体验，这是一种非常身体化的、很奇妙的体验。

It's like sanitary therapy, but it's a box full of clay, and you can get it wetter or drier and kind of like get into it, and it's this really physical kind of amazing experience.

而且它对处理创伤非常有效。

And it's really effective for processing trauma.

有意思。

Interesting.

很像沙盘疗法。

Much like Santray.

所以我要补充的另一件事，丽贝卡，这很棒，就是大概二十年前，当我听到人们谈论躯体工作和记忆储存在身体里时，我接触到的那些内容听起来有点伪科学，人们几乎是在说，甚至直接说身体里真的有某种类似灵魂的东西。

So the other thing I'll add to all that, which is wonderful, Rebecca, is that, you know, I don't know, maybe twenty years ago when I would hear people talk about somatic work and memories being in the body, the little bit that I was exposed to sounded pseudoscientific to me where people would almost be saying or even flat out saying that there were literal, like, almost like spirits in the body or something.

如果那是你的信仰体系，那也没问题。

And, you know, if that's your belief system, fine.

但对我来说，这并不引起共鸣。

But it didn't resonate with me.

但大约十九年前，那是很久以前了，我记得我坐在贝尔维尤广场的停车场里，听一个采访或播客，有人在谈论意识，然后我就明白了。

But then about nineteen years ago or whatever, was a long time ago, I remember I was sitting in a parking lot at Bellevue Square and I was listening to an interview or some podcast, and someone was talking about consciousness and then I understood.

这在一定程度上会是对它的曲解，因为那其实是相当复杂的科学。

And this will be a butchering of it to some extent because it's actually pretty complicated science.

但正如你所说，我们倾向于认为我们的灵魂、思想、记忆或自我都包含在大脑里。

But, you know, as you said, we tend to think of our souls or our minds or our memories or our ourselves as being contained within the brain.

如果我们把大脑取出来放进另一个身体里，那仍然是我们。

And if you just took our brain out and put it in another body, it would still be us.

或者如果我们把大脑取出来放进一个罐子里，就像《飞出个未来》里那样，你还能和我们说话。

Or if you took our brain out and put it in a jar, like on Futurama, you could talk to us.

或者那部我十二岁时很喜欢的史蒂夫·马丁的电影。

Or that Steve Martin movie that I loved when I was like 12 years old.

你还记得那部电影吗？

Do you remember that movie?

记得，是《整夜疯狂》吧。

Yeah, All of Me.

是《整夜疯狂》吗？

Was it All of Me?

就是那部

Is that one

最棒的电影之一，你要是看过的话，它现在看依然很精彩。

of the greatest, if you watched it, it holds up so well.

确实。

It does.

不是凯瑟琳·特纳演的吗？

Isn't Kathleen Turner?

不是，是莉莉·汤姆林演的。

No, it's Lily Tomlin.

哦，莉莉·汤姆林。

Oh, Lily Tomlin.

好的。

Okay.

那我得重新看一遍了。

So, well, I have to rewatch it.

我们应该一起看。

We should watch it together.

好的。

Okay.

那时候的史蒂夫·马丁真是巅峰状态。

As Steve Martin at his prime, really.

这是你见过的最棒的肢体喜剧之一。

It's the some of the best physical comedy you've ever seen in

我脑海里有个画面，他走在街上，身体不太听使唤。总之，我们往往认为自我完全存在于大脑中，而且我们的大部分自我确实在大脑里，但科学告诉我们，如果不把大脑和身体联系起来，我们就无法理解世界和自己。不仅仅是大脑和身体，还有大脑、身体和环境之间的连接。因为再往远一点看，如果我们说，好吧，那么自我至少完全包含在身体里。

I your have this vision in my head of him like walking down the street, you know, and his body isn't quite working and anyway, so, you know, we tend to think of ourselves as being completely contained within the brain, and a large part of ourself is contained within the brain, but the science is that we can't understand the world and ourselves without the brain body, not only just the brain body, but also the brain body environment connection because, you know, to even zoom out a little farther, if we go, okay, well, then the self is at least completely contained within the body.

但是后来他们做实验，你也看到不同的现象，比如把一个人放进感官剥夺室，最终他们会失去自我。

But then they do experiments, and you also look at different phenomena, like if you put someone in a sensory deprivation chamber, eventually they lose themselves.

他们开始产生幻觉。

They start hallucinating.

你开始完全脱离现实和意识。

You start, you know, completely disconnecting from reality and from consciousness.

所以这并不完全是……

So it's not all...

自我不仅仅存在于大脑中，也不仅仅存在于身体里，而是无处不在。

The self is not just not only in the brain, it's not only in the body, but it's it's everywhere.

这并不是什么灵性的事情，但我是说，如果你愿意那样看的话，但让我有共鸣的是，我们从来不是作为一个独立的自我进化的，不是脱离身体，也不是脱离世界，对吧？

Not that it's a spiritual thing, but it's, I mean, if you choose to see it that way, but what resonates with me is that we never evolved as a self, not in a body and not in a world, right?

我们确实是环境的产物。

We are truly products of our environment.

所以我们……

So we...

顺着这个思路，记忆和情绪，人们常说它们储存在身体里，这么说有点粗糙，但我的理解是，一旦我弄懂了关于情绪的研究和生理机制，因为那是我之前以为情绪是在边缘系统里的，对吧？

And along these lines, memory and emotions are, you know, like when they say stored in the body, that's a blunt way of putting it, but the way that I think about it is that once I understood the research and the physiology around emotion, because that was another thing I thought that emotion was, you know, it's in the limbic system, right?

就是大脑内部。

You know, the inner brain.

但那是个过于简化的说法。

But that's a way oversimplification.

就是说，还有腹侧迷走神经贯穿全身，而且……

Mean, there's also the ventral vagal nerve running all the way through the body and, like...

其实，你身体里的每一根神经都是。

Well, literally every nerve in your body.

就像，你……

I mean, like, you...

情绪实际运作的方式……

The way that emotions work when they actually...

要精确研究这个很难，因为我们没有仪器能精确测量，但情绪理论模型认为，我们感知到某些东西，比如恐惧，这个比较容易理解。

And it's hard to study this precisely because we don't have machines to measure this precisely, but when there's models of emotion theory that says that we perceive something, like say say fear, that's an easy one to do.

我们看到一只老虎在跟踪我们，在我们甚至还没在前额叶皮层里把它识别为危险之前，它就已经绕过了所有意识思维，直接冲到我们的胳膊、腿、胃和心脏，肾上腺素飙升，赶紧跑，对吧？

We see a tiger that is stalking us, and before we even register it in our prefrontal cortex as danger, it bypasses all of, you know, that conscious mind and shoots to our arms and legs and our stomach and our heart and adrenaline, let's go, right?

所以，就是战斗或逃跑。

So, fight or flight.

然后，我们的边缘系统，最后是我们的前额叶皮层……

Then, our limbic system and then eventually our prefrontal cortex...

如果我们幸运的话，我们的前额叶皮层……

If we're lucky, our prefrontal cortex....

注意到我们的身体有某种感觉。

Notices that our body is feeling something.

我们往往会说，我看到一只老虎，我感到害怕，因为老虎很吓人。

You know, we tend to say, I saw a tiger and I I felt scared because tigers are scary.

但如果你看看这些步骤，事情发生得那么快，你的边缘系统和前额叶皮层根本来不及捕捉到这些。

But if you look at the steps, how fast things are going, there's no way your limbic system and your prefrontal cortex has time to pick to pick up on that.

所以……

And so...

但即使是爱，对吧，比如说你和心爱的人拥抱时，你的身体会有感觉，然后你的边缘系统，最终你的前额叶皮层会注意到你全身的放松感或那种感觉，你知道的。

But even with, like, love, right, when you are, say, cuddling with a loved one, your body is feeling something, and then your limbic system and eventually your prefrontal cortex notices the relaxation feeling with throughout your body or the or the sensation, you know.

所以……

And so the...

所以，当你回忆爱一个人的感觉时，你的身体会表现出来，这都是有研究依据的。

So, like, when you're remembering what it feels like to love someone, your body will manifest, and this is all study.

这不是什么玄学。

This isn't magic thinking.

你的身体会重现你和那个人接触时的那种感觉。

Your body will manifest the feeling that you get when you are in contact with that person.

所以如果你像有些人那样，因为压抑或受伤，在某种程度上切断了和身体的联系，那就很难感受到爱。

So if you cut yourself off, as some people do from suppression or from injury, from your body in certain ways, then it's hard to feel love.

同样，比如人们打肉毒杆菌时，他们发现这些人不仅看起来情绪迟钝，因为他们的脸被麻痹了，对吧，某些区域的肌肉不再工作，而且他们真的感受不到那些情绪。

Similarly, like when they do Botox for people, they found that not only do they look like they have blunted emotions because their face is been made numb, right, their muscles no longer are working in certain areas, but they literally don't feel the emotions.

所以你要是打了肉毒杆菌，嗯……

So you you take Botox, which Mhmm.

它只是暂时麻痹或抑制神经系统和肌肉，让它们不动，从而使皮肤变得平滑。

It just temporarily numbs or deadens the nervous system and the muscles so that it doesn't move so that it smooths out the skin.

当他们让人们主观感受或表现出情绪反应时，他们的情绪会减弱。

And when they ask people to subjectively or have reactivity that is indicative of emotions, they have lesser emotions.

那么情绪在哪里呢？

So where are the emotions?

自我在哪里？

Where is the self?

就在面部的肌肉里。

It's in the muscles in the face.

它在大脑之外，因为我们的情绪是整个体验。

It's outside of the brain because our emotions are the whole experience.

有人可能会说，情绪始于……

One could argue that emotions begin...

情绪……

I mean, emotion...

所以情绪依赖于感知，感知可以来自内部，但你知道，如果是记忆的感知或者从外到内的感知，它会直接传到身体，然后我们的大脑才会注意到。

So emotions depend on perception, which can come from within, but, know, so if it's a perception of a memory or perception from the outside inward, it goes straight to the body and then our brain notices.

现在其他理论家会说它们是同时发生的，或者我们的边缘系统先启动，然后身体，然后大脑再反应，但也有可行的模型说感知、身体，然后我们感受到情绪。

Now other theorists will say it happens all the same time or our limbic system engages and then our body and then our brain again, but there's, you know, viable models that say perception, body, then we feel the emotion.

所以我们……

So we...

我们的身体是……

Our bodies are...

而且当我们回忆起那些经历和情绪时，身体又参与其中。

And and then when we remember those experiences and the emotions, again, the body is involved.

嗯，另一个版本是，有多少客户被转介到我这里……

Well, and another version of that is how many clients have come to me referred...

他们的急诊科医生说他们去急诊是因为他们以为自己心脏病发作了。

Their ER doctor has said they go to the ER because they think they're having a heart attack.

然后急诊科医生说，你不是心脏病发作，你是焦虑发作。

And the ER doctor says, you're not having a heart attack, you're having an an anxiety attack.

你生活里有什么压力吗？

What stresses do you have in your life?

你有心理咨询师吗？

Do you have a mental health counselor?

然后他们最后就来找我了。

And then they end up in my office.

所以其实是反过来的。

So it's in reverse.

他们的身体完全被淹没了。

Their body is completely flooded.

他们以为自己要死了。

They think they're going to die.

他们确信自己会死。

They're sure they're going to die.

但实际上……

But it really...

这是身体对情绪的反应，他们脑子里可能充满了焦虑的想法，但身体的反应太强烈了。

It's a body reaction to emotion, and their head is probably having anxious thoughts, but the body reaction is so intense.

他们根本不会想到要跟专业人士谈这件事，或者他们对治疗有什么顾虑，反正他们还没去看过心理医生。

And, you know, they would never think to talk about this with a professional or that would be, you know, whatever hang ups they have around therapy, they haven't been to therapy first.

但正是医生告诉他们，你得把这件事说出来。

But it it is a medical doctor who says to them, you're gonna have to talk this out.

希望如此。

Hopefully.

很多很多医生都做不到这一点。

A lot a lot of medical doctors fail to do that.

我觉得心脏科医生通常都……

I mean, I think heart doctors are routinely...

我想象……

I imagine...

我记得有一次问过医生，但我觉得他们大多数的心脏病患者可能都有焦虑问题。

I think I asked the doctor one time, but I think most of their heart patients are likely having anxiety.

另一个被充分理解和记录的，心理痛苦、焦虑和困扰的身体表现，就是背痛。

Another well understood, well documented physical manifestation of psychological pain and anxiety and distress is back pain.

下背痛。

Lower back pain.

不是说下背痛不严重。

Not to discount people's lower back pain.

那真的疼得要命。

It it fucking sucks.

但其中一个

But one of

这往往是身体的一种反应。

It is often a somatic response.

你能做的最好的事情之一……

One of the best things you can...

最好的途径之一，就是去假设你背痛的原因，同时也是解决办法，就是评估你的情绪压力、生活压力、社交压力，还有你的人际关系。

One of the best avenues you can go down as a as a hypothesis as to why you have back pain and the solution too is to evaluate your emotional stress, your life stress, your social stress, your your relationships.

这不一定就是原因，你可能真的只是下背部出了问题，但功能上出了问题。

It's not necessarily the reason you could literally just have something wrong with your lower back, but, you know, functionally wrong.

肠易激综合征是另一个

IBS is is is another

可能的原因。

potential.

通常人们……

I mean, often people...

我会问，你身体哪里感觉到不适？

You know, I'll say, where do you feel it in your body?

他们会说，感觉在胃里，而胃的神经末梢和大脑一样多。

And they'll say, feel I it in the stomach, and the stomach has as many nerve endings as the brain.

他们称之为第二大脑。

They call it the second brain.

它同样能感受到很多情绪，而且在我家里，五六十年代每个人都有溃疡，我敢肯定是因为没人能谈论任何事情。

Like, feels things just as much, and in my family, everybody had ulcers in the fifties and the sixties, you know, I'm sure because nobody could talk about anything.

对我来说，我现在的身体反应就是会失声。

Or for me, my current somatic responses, I will lose my voice.

我的喉咙会收紧，突然就说不出话来了。

My throat closes up, and I suddenly can't speak.

我得缓一下，让自己镇定下来。

And I have to take a minute, get it together.

这是从什么时候开始的？

Where did that start?

我觉得肯定是从小就有的。

I'm sure it's from my childhood.

但你没有直接的

But you don't have a direct

经历，但说到说话……

experience But, you know, talking...

他们不是常说婴儿也是这样吗？

I mean, they say this with babies, right?

婴儿会一直哭一直哭，最后就不哭了。

That babies cry and cry and cry and eventually they stop crying.

我觉得我以前也试着开口说话，但最后变得说不出话来，这挺戏剧化的。

And I think that, you know, I tried to speak up and say something and eventually I got voiceless, which is quite dramatic.

如果你认识我，你会知道我能说会道，能讲别人不敢讲的话题。

If you know me, I could, you know, talk, talk quite strongly, talk about issues that other people can't talk about.

但想象一下我突然僵住，说不出话的样子。

But imagine me kind of freezing up and losing my voice.

这种情况时不时会发生在我身上。

That happens to me from time to time.

比如在什么情况下？

Like in what scenarios?

比如在非常悲伤的情况下，或者当我必须告诉亲近的人一些很难开口的事情，不是在治疗环境里。

Like in really sad scenarios or when I have something really hard that I have to tell someone that's close to me, not in a therapeutic setting.

对，我就会失声。

But yeah, I lose my voice.

比如当你受伤的时候？

Like when you're hurt?

更多是在我难过或者不知所措的时候。

More when I'm sad or overwhelmed.

这绝对是一种退行反应。

I mean, it's definitely a regression response.

就像，我并不是一个完全的成年人。

Like, I am not fully an adult.

你喉咙里感觉怎么样？

What does it feel like in your throat?

很难受。

It's awful.

就像，我能感觉到它要来了，我试着发出声音，但声音就是出不来。

It's like, I can feel it coming and I try and get sound out and it doesn't really come out.

真的吗？

Really?

比如你的横膈膜、喉头、喉咙肌肉，还是……

Like your diaphragm or your larynx or your throat muscles or your...

我觉得可能是我的喉咙收紧了。

I think probably my throat closes up.

我从很多创伤幸存者那里听说过这种情况，我脑子里也在闪现相关画面。

I mean, I've heard this from a lot of trauma survivors and I'm flashing in my head.

所以在我那本书《化圆为方》里，我放了很多基于身体的涂色页，因为如果你问别人，比如你喉咙里有什么感觉？

So in my book, Square the Circle, I have all these body based coloring sheets because if you say to someone like, you know, what are you feeling in your throat?

你能给我画出来吗？

Can you draw me a picture of that?

这本书应该出版十二周年了吧。

It must be like your twelfth anniversary of this book.

是的。

Yes.

或者……

Or...

这本书出版多少年了？

I mean, how many years have you been?

天哪。

Oh my god.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

但我现在还是经常跟人用这些涂色页。

But I still do them with people all the time.

所以亚马逊上有卖。

So it's on Amazon.

《Square the Circle》。

Square square the circle.

亚马逊上有。

It's on Amazon.

如果你想要身体相关的涂色页，或者脉轮相关的涂色页，那里都有。

If you want body based coloring sheets, chakra based coloring sheets, they're all there.

但我有喉咙。

But, you know, I have a throat.

我有，我有喉咙。

I have I have a throat.

我有胃。

I have a stomach.

我有大脑。

I have a brain.

我有心脏。

I have a heart.

我有骨盆。

I have a pelvis.

所有那些人们容易紧张的部位我都有，因为我见得太多。

I have all of the ones where people hold this crap because I saw it so much.

所以喉咙的那些其实很相似。

So the throat ones are really similar.

人们往往会有那种，比如，那里紧缩、那里爆发的感觉，这很可能就是我当时正在经历的。

People tend to have, like, a constricting there and exploding there, like, you know, and that is very common to what I probably am experiencing in that moment.

我就是会失去我的……

I just like lose my People

人们会说，打个比方，我把那段创伤憋在喉咙里。

will say, as a metaphor, I'm holding that trauma in my throat.

另一种说法是，你的整个身体承载着你所有的记忆。

Another way of putting it is your whole body is holding all your memories.

你明白吗？

You know?

你不可能有记忆，尤其是带有情感的记忆，而身体不参与其中。

You can't have memories, especially with emotion, without your body being involved.

当你感到爱或伤害时，所有这些难以察觉的细微感觉……

You know, all these imperceptible little sensations when you feel love or hurt or...

伤害是很容易理解的，因为很多时候，你会感到心痛、胃痛或类似的感觉。

You know, hurt's an easy one because so often, will feel a pain in your heart or your stomach or something.

所以这就是为什么我们会说心碎或者肚子被打了一拳，因为我们确实有那种感觉。我相信这是因为我们进化过程中，把身体的感受用来推动我们的情绪。

You know, like, that's why we call it, like, a broken heart or a punch in the gut because we do feel it that way because we evolved, I believe, to co opt physical sensations to motivate us through emotion.

比如在我们还没有情绪、还没有成为社会性生物之前，如果有人打了我们肚子一拳，我们会感到疼痛，然后我们会想办法改变现状，不再疼痛，远离疼痛。

You know, like when we were pre emotional, pre social creatures, if something punched us in the gut, we would feel pain and then we would try to change our scenario so we don't have that pain anymore, get away from the pain.

随着我们进化成有社会性和情绪的生物，我们慢慢利用这些神经感觉来促使我们改变行为。

As we evolved into social and emotional creatures, we co opted slowly these nerve sensations to get us to change our behavior.

所以如果有人伤了我们的感情，我们的身体并没有发明一种新的情绪，真的。

So if someone hurt our feelings, our bodies didn't invent a new emotion, really.

它只是说，我们已经有了这种让你有动力的受伤感觉，那我们就用这个吧，就用那种肚子被打了一拳的感觉，或者心被刺了一下的感觉，然后这会提醒你的边缘系统，出问题了，需要改变，然后这就会促使你改变你的社交状况，因为对我们这种社会性生物来说，如果没有接纳和团结，我们就会被冷落，饿死，或者被天敌捕食。

It just said, well, we already have this hurt feeling that motivates you, so let's just use that and we'll use that punch in the gut feeling or that heart being, I don't know, stabbed or something, and then that'll alert your limbic system that something's wrong, something has to change, and then that motivates you to change your social situation because for us as as social creatures without acceptance and togetherness, we would be left in the cold and starve or be predated upon and eaten.

所以

So

嗯，而且历史上也有不同的说法。

Well, and there's different myths through time.

比如，我很喜欢这个播客，不只是都铎王朝那部分，那都是关于古代历史的，他们谈到中世纪的信仰，以及当时人们真的...

Like, I'm loving this podcast, not only the Tudors, which is all about ancient history, and they were talking about beliefs in the Middle Ages and how it was literally...

“心碎”这个词，字面意思就是你的心脏碎了。

The term heartbreak was literally that your heart broke.

他们相信，你的心脏真的会因为痛苦而破裂。

They believed that your heart physically broke from the pain.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的。

Yes.

然后你想想塔罗牌里的宝剑三，也就是心碎牌，是三把剑刺穿一颗心，而且……

And then if you think about the tarot card, three of swords, which is the heartbreak card, it is three swords stabbing a heart, and it is...

给我解释一下。

Explain this to me.

好的。

Okay.

那么，歇斯底里。

So hysteria.

对。

Yes.

Hyster，就是子宫。

Hyster, the womb.

子宫。

The womb.

对。

Yes.

子宫。

The uterus.

对。

Yes.

古埃及人最初认为，

Was originally thought by the ancient Egyptians

四千年前，歇斯底里症及其症状是由这个引起的。

Four thousand years ago to be caused by, you know, the syndrome of hysteria and the symptoms.

这四千年来一直在演变。

It's morphed over four thousand years.

但当时的理论是，子宫会在身体里游走，从而引发各种问题。

But the theory was that the uterus would be wandering around the body and that would cause all these problems.

他们会用各种方法来试图把子宫引回原位，可以说是引回下体。

And they would use different things to try to coax the uterus back to the crotch, if you will.

他们会在下体放些香的东西，然后在脸上放些臭的东西。

And they would put like nice smelling things in the crotch and then bad smelling things in the face.

但还有另一种方法，毕竟那是四千年前，他们甚至会把猴子粪便之类的东西放在下体。

But then there was another technique, because you know, it's four thousand years, where they would actually put like monkey dung or something in crotch though.

哦。

Oh.

你可能会想，这到底是怎么回事？

And you're thinking what's going on?

但不管怎样，如果用这种方法，谁知道他们当时在想什么。

But anyway, so if we use this, you know, who knows what they were thinking.

因为那个想法其实一直延续下来了。

Because that thought actually persisted.

基本上一直持续到昨天。

Till like yesterday, basically.

就是跟子宫有关，子宫可能会到处乱跑。

That it has to do with the uterus, and the uterus might be wandering around.

但可能……

But might...

因为你想，古埃及的医生问病人问题或者听症状，说到心碎，你能理解，因为感觉确实是这样，对吧？

Because you just imagine some ancient Egyptian physician asking people questions or hearing symptoms, and with the broken heart thing, you can imagine because it feels that way, right?

那会不会有人说，感觉我的子宫在动，或者感觉有什么东西在动，或者感觉有什么东西离开了……

So would someone say it feels like my uterus is moving or it feels like something's moving or feels like something left that...

比如，那会是什么感觉呢……

You know, like, what what what would what would that feel like as...

好。

Great.

我想那时候你描述自己哪里不舒服的选择很有限，所以那个说法跟其他说法一样合理。

I mean, I imagine you just had limited options to describe what was wrong with you, and that was as valid as anything else.

你有没有觉得过……

Have you ever felt like...

我的子宫跑掉了？

My uterus had wandered off?

或者有什么东西在动，或者有什么东西不见了？

Or that something's moving or something left?

我没有那种感觉。

I have not felt that way.

他们居然会相信这个，挺好笑的，因为它在原地就疼得够厉害了。

It's funny that they would believe that because it hurts so much just where it is.

我觉得如果它真跑到别的地方去了，我肯定能注意到，因为它疼得那么厉害。

Like, I think I would definitely notice if it had wandered somewhere else, it was hurting that.

嗯，我们就是这么理解的。

Well, we interpret it that way.

因为，因为我们知道那是子宫在痉挛。

Because because we know that it's cramping in the uterus.

但他们可能对此有不同的理解。

But they might have interpreted it differently.

他们可能把它想成了别的东西。

They might have thought of of it as something else.

这不是直觉能想到的。

It's not intuitive.

对。

Yes.

嗯，当时有各种体液理论，比如痰、血，还有……

Well, there, you know, there were all of the humors, the phlegm and the blood and the...

所以你从来没有感觉像……

So you've never felt like

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

当你心情不好或者情绪上不顺的时候，好像有什么东西从你裤裆里跑出来，然后到处乱窜。

When you're in a bad mood or when things aren't going well emotionally for you that something has left your crotch and is now upping But

这样描述激素还挺有意思的，激素确实会产生。

that is a interesting way to describe hormones which are produced.

雌激素、孕激素，还有女性体内的睾酮，都是在卵巢里产生的。

So estrogen and progesterone and testosterone in women as well are produced in the ovaries.

所以，其实它们确实会……

So, actually, they do want...

这些激素确实会在身体里到处游走，引发各种有趣的体验。

Those those hormones do wander around the body and cause all kinds of interesting experiences.

你……

You...

你的子宫本身不需要到处跑。

Your your actual uterus doesn't have to wander.

它产生的激素会到处跑，从而引发那些问题。

It produces hormones that do the wandering and can cause the problems.

我们休息一下吧。

Let's take a break.

回来之后，我们再聊一个关于创伤的问题。

When we get back, another question about trauma.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you say?

好的。

Alright.

本期节目由BetterHelp赞助播出。

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

好。

Okay.

BetterHelp让我把下面这句话一字不差地念出来。

So BetterHelp wants me to read this next sentence verbatim.

如果你考虑过尝试和我们长期合作伙伴BetterHelp一起做心理治疗，现在全国范围内可能都有保险选项，符合条件的会员平均每次只需支付23美元的自付费用。

If you've thought about trying therapy with our long term partner BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average co pay for eligible members of just $23 per session.

好的。

Okay.

回到我这边。

Back to me.

现在是十月，十月十日是世界心理健康日。

It's October, and October 10 is World Mental Health Day.

这一天是让我们所有人关注那些一年中每一天都需要关注的事情。

It's a day for us all to focus on something that needs attention every day of the year.

所以花点时间，检查一下自己的心理健康状况。

So take a second to check-in with yourself about your mental well-being.

别管这是为BetterHelp做的广告。

And, you know, never mind that this is a live read for BetterHelp.

花整整一分钟，就一分钟，想想你现在的感受。

Take a full minute and just a minute, you know, just one minute and think about how you're feeling.

你有没有把什么事情搁置一边？

Are you putting anything on the back burner?

有没有什么事你想跟治疗师聊聊？

Is there something you wanna talk with a therapist about?

嗯，你可以在BetterHelp找到治疗师。

Well, one of the places you can find a therapist is at BetterHelp.

好的。

Okay.

剩下的内容，BetterHelp希望我来念。

The rest of this, BetterHelp wants me to read.

这跟之前那句重复了，但咱们还是念一遍吧。

It's a repeat of the earlier sentence, but here we go.

如果你一直在等开始治疗，BetterHelp与超过125个健康计划网络合作，符合条件的会员在保险下平均每次会话只需支付23美元。

If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average co pay of just $23 per session with insurance.

没有保险或者不住在美国？

Don't have insurance or don't live in The United States?

你仍然可以在第一个月享受10%的折扣。

You can still get 10% off your first month.

访问 betterhelp.com/kirk 查看你的支付选项。

Visit betterhelp.com/kirk to explore your payment options.

就是 betterhelp.com/kirk，拼写是 b-e-t-t-e-r-h-e-l-p 点 com 斜杠 kirk。

That's better, h e l p dot com slash kirk.

好的。

Alright.

休息结束，我们回来了。

Back from the break.

所以又一个我们

So another We

俩同时打嗝了。

both are burping at the same time.

是吗？

Were we?

太恶心了。

It's so gross.

所以有时候我会把这些剪掉，有时候我会……

So sometimes I will edit those out, and sometimes I'll...

有时候我没注意到，就把打嗝声留下来了，真是恶心。

I won't I won't notice them and I'll leave in the burps and it's disgusting.

简直恶心透了。

Just absolutely disgusting.

我们的身体真是让人受不了。

Our bodies are gross.

丽贝卡，这打嗝到底想告诉我什么？

What is the burp trying to tell me, Rebecca?

嗯，打嗝至少说明你的胃在正常工作。

Well, you know, burping at least means your stomach's working.

但作为听众，我可不想听到这个，我也不想让听众受这个罪。

But I don't wanna hear it as a listener, and I don't wanna subject the listeners to it.

有位匿名听众说，我父亲是虐待我的人，他去世了，你有什么应对的方法吗？

Anonymous patron, she says, do you have any strategies for coping with the death of my abuser who is my dad?

这引发了巨大的情绪波动，尤其是面对那些对虐待毫不知情或否认虐待的家人时。

It has brought a huge wave of emotions to the surface dealing with family members who have no idea of the abuse or deny the abuse.

顺便说一句，我有一个很棒的治疗师，而且我是焦虑型依恋。

By the way, I have a fabulous therapist, and I am preoccupied attachment.

所以策略就是应对她施虐者的去世。

So strategy is coping with the death of her abuser.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

你觉得呢？

What do say?

你需要找一些安全的人聊聊，谈谈你的愤怒或者复杂的心情。

I mean, you're gonna need safe people to talk to to talk about your anger or your complex feelings.

这真的非常非常难。

It is really, really hard.

我们的文化确实让...

Our our culture really set...

不要对死者说坏话。

You know, don't speak ill of the dead.

但是，是的，你需要一些地方来坦诚面对，这可能……

But, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna need to to have some places to be honest, and it might...

死亡也会揭示很多事情。

You know, death also reveals a lot.

它可能会引发一些真实的对话，和那些期待你以某种方式哀悼的人，而你有权……

It might bring up, you might have to have some real conversations with people who are expecting you to be mourning in a certain way, and you're allowed to...

或者一个安全的心理空间，说，是的。

Or a safe physic field to say, yeah.

我……

I...

我……

I'm...

我并不悲伤，或者我有很多复杂的情绪……

I am not sad, or I have a lot of complication...

对这个人的离世，情绪很复杂。

Complicated emotions about this person passing.

死亡本身就可以非常复杂，这没关系。

It is okay for death to be incredibly complex.

我刚开始做一件……

I just started doing a...

我妈妈去世的时候，我带回家很多东西，全都摆在外面，我现在才开始慢慢收起来。

You know, when my mom died, I brought so many things home, and they were all out, and I'm just starting to like put them away.

这也是悲伤的一部分吗？

Is that part of the grieving?

我觉得是的。

I think so.

我觉得我已经到了一个阶段，不需要把那些东西都摆出来了。

I think I've reached some kind of place where I don't need it all out.

而且挺有意思的。

And it's funny.

有一把我妈一直用的椅子，我整个成年生活都留着它，我现在就是……

There's this chair that my mom always had that I've had my entire adult life, and I'm just...

我准备把它送给一个刚买了第一套房的朋友。

I'm ready to pass it on to a friend who just bought their first house.

我就觉得，我这辈子已经不需要那把椅子了。

I'm like, I don't need that chair in my life anymore.

所以，是的，这很复杂。

So, yeah, it's complex.

我计划写的关于悲伤的书，最后一章或最后一部分是关于……

The final chapter or the final bit of my book on grief that I plan on tackling is complic...

不是那种复杂的悲伤，因为那是另一个概念，而是关于处理复杂关系的悲伤。

Not complicated grief because that's a different concept, but grieving complicated relationships.

这……

It's...

每种情况都不一样。

You know, every situation is different.

每个人的悲伤都不一样，但我觉得处理复杂关系的悲伤尤其独特，而且因为像匿名听众说的那样，人们会说你在说什么？这让事情变得更复杂。

Every grief is different, but I think, you know, grieving complicated relationships is particularly uniquely experienced, and it's made more complicated by the fact that as anonymous patron says, like, people are saying, you know, what are you talking about?

他又没有虐待你。

He didn't abuse you.

而且你会被各种方向拉扯。

And how you're going in all different directions.

一方面，你试图和那个人保持距离。

On one hand, you are trying to distance yourself from the person.

另一方面，不管你愿不愿意，你总是和那个人有着千丝万缕的联系。

On the other hand, you're you're always fibrously connected to that person whether you like it or not.

还有一些美好的回忆。

There's also fond memories.

我自己现在也正在经历这个过程，我不想具体谈，但我会在书里写，我需要理清自己的感受。

I am going through that right now myself, and I don't wanna talk about it specifically, but I will talk about it in the book, and I need to sift through my feelings around it.

这个话题讨论得还不够多。

It's not something that's talked about enough.

我们的文化似乎会认为，如果虐待你的人死了，你应该感到高兴或者毫不在意，或者会有一个电影般的场景，你去墓前哭泣、愤怒，然后得到某种解脱，最后迎着夕阳走去，这件事就翻篇了。

It seems like our culture would say that you would be happy or just not care that your abuser would die, or that you would have a a movie esque scene where you go to the grave and you cry and you get angry and you have resolution or something, and then you walk into the sunset with it over.

但我发现，对于失去的复杂关系，情况并非如此。

I have found that for complicated relationships that are lost.

你可以和很多事情有复杂的关系，比如过去的工作或过去的城市，但我发现这种悲伤、这种失去特别奇怪，因为比如我的猫去世的时候，我也不知道为什么突然想到这个。

And you can have a complicated relationship with a lot of things like a like a past job or a past town, but I found that these kinds of griefs, these kinds of losses are so weird because, you know, like when my cat died, I don't know why that pops in the head.

那只是悲伤和遗憾，遗憾是因为，怎么说呢，就是那种……

It's just sorrow and regret and regret for like, I don't know, just like this sense of...

嗯，也许那确实更复杂一些。

Well, maybe it is more complicated.

但那种感觉像是朝着一个方向流动的，如果这么说你能理解的话，你知道吗？

But it it's it's feels like it's flowing in one direction if that makes any sense, you know?

比如，当我为我的猫去世而哭泣时，那只是……

Like, when I cry about my cat dying, it just...

感觉就像……

It feels like...

这里面有一种纯粹的感觉。

There's a kind of a purity to it.

就像，我只是在哀悼我失去的爱。

Like, I'm just, I'm grieving something I loved.

其实挺简单的。

It's kind of very simple.

虽然复杂，因为我不得不让猫安乐死，但感觉所有情绪都朝着同一个方向，而面对复杂的关系，我一方面会为失去这个人而悲伤，另一方面又渴望被接纳，同时还有对一生痛苦的愤怒和伤害。

Although complicated because I had to put the cat down and, you know, but it feels like it's all going in the same direction, whereas when it's a complicated relationship, as I would feel sad about losing the person in the normal way, I also have the feeling of longing for acceptance and the feeling of anger and hurt, you know, about a lifetime of that kind of pain.

我现在常说，我妈妈的去世是我遇到的最好的事，这话有些人听了会不舒服。

I mean, I currently say my mom dying is the best thing that ever happened to me, which is hard for some people to hear.

而且有无数的事情永远无法得到解决。

And there's 10,000 things that will never get resolved.

我保留着很多关于她的记忆。

And I hold so much of her memory.

比如现在，我阿姨正在整理她的诗集，她一直想让我参与进来。

Like, right now, my aunt is compiling a book of her poetry, and my aunt keeps trying to get me involved.

比如说，你想不想……

Like, do you wanna...

我姑姑也知道，我们之间一直都很坦诚。

And my aunt knows, and we've been very honest with each other.

她很支持你。

She's supportive.

是的。

Yes.

但她就是习惯性地会问，你想看看那本书的进展吗？

But she just out of habit will ask like, you wanna see where the book is?

我会说，不想。

I'll say, no.

嗯，也许是出于尊重吧……

Well, maybe out of respect, you know, like...

或者像，你想不想给这本书画插图？

Or like, you know, do you wanna illustrate the book?

不吗？

No?

当然不想给书配插图了。

Sure don't wanna illustrate the book.

但我想说，关于悲伤的另一件事是，人们会一直问你。

But, you know, I mean, I would say another thing that is about grief is that people ask you all the time.

这没完没了。

It it doesn't end.

比如，人们会说，哦，我听说你妈妈去世了。

Like, people will be like, oh, I heard your mother died.

真让人难过。

That's so sad.

甚至那些知道全部故事的人，比如一个亲爱的……

And even people who know the whole story, like a dear...

我非常爱的一个人，她的妈妈刚刚去世，她非常爱她的妈妈。

Someone I love so much, her mother just passed away and she loved her mom so much.

我们在一次培训上碰面，我就说，很遗憾你失去了那么好的母亲。

And we saw each other at a training and I just said, you know, I'm so sorry that you lost your mother who was so great.

她回应我说，我知道你的情况很复杂，她做得很好。

And she said to me back, you know, I know your story's really complicated, like, she did everything right.

我们彼此都允许对方拥有完全不同的悲伤体验。

Like, we were both allowed each other to have completely different experiences of grief.

好的。

Okay.

而且我仍然……

And I still...

而不是她说，很遗憾你妈妈去世了，对。

As opposed to her saying, I'm so sorry that your mom died Yeah.

即使你知道她明白

Even though you know that she knows

事情没那么简单。

That it's not that simple.

那会让你觉得烦吧。

That would be bothersome to you.

嗯，确实会。但话说回来，她做得都对，我还是觉得，靠。

Well, it would be like, but, like, she did everything right, and I was still like, fuck.

这真让人难过。

This is sad.

所有那些情绪都涌上来了，我想起她和她妈妈的关系，她在Facebook上经常晒，她妈妈看起来真是个美好又棒的人，我就想，天哪，我和我妈就没这样。

Like, you know, I mean, all that stuff came up of like, I thought about her relationship with her mother, which was she was very public on Facebook with and her mom just seemed like such a beautiful wonderful person and and I was like, damn, I didn't have that with my mom.

我无时无刻不在被提醒。

Like, I am reminded all the time.

就像我们一开始聊到的，圣诞节或者生日就是典型的例子。

I mean, to that conversation that we started with, Christmas or a birthday is a classic example.

我讨厌那天是有原因的。

Like, there's a reason that I hate that day.

好，我们先休息一下，然后赶紧处理一封我一直想回的邮件。

Well, let's take a break and then quickly one email that I've been dying to Okay.

想问你一个问题。

Ask you about.

本期节目由BetterHelp赞助播出。

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

好的。

Okay.

BetterHelp希望我逐字念出下面这句话。

So BetterHelp wants me to read this next sentence verbatim.

如果你考虑过和我们长期合作伙伴BetterHelp一起尝试心理治疗，现在全国范围内可能都有保险选项，符合条件的会员平均每次只需支付23美元的自付费用。

If you've thought about trying therapy with our long term partner BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average co pay for eligible members of just $23 per session.

好的。

Okay.

回到我自己的话。

Back to me.

现在是十月，10月10日是世界心理健康日。

It's October, and October 10 is World Mental Health Day.

这一天是让我们所有人都关注某件事的日子，这件事其实一年中的每一天都需要关注。

It's a day for us all to focus on something that needs attention every day of the year.

所以花点时间，好好检查一下自己的心理健康状况。

So take a second to check-in with yourself about your mental well-being.

别管这是为BetterHelp做的广告。

And, you know, never mind that this is a live read for BetterHelp.

花整整一分钟，就一分钟，想想你现在的感受。

Take a full minute and just a minute, you know, just one minute and think about how you're feeling.

你有没有把什么事情搁置不管？

Are you putting anything on the back burner?

有没有什么事你想和心理咨询师聊聊？

Is there something you wanna talk with a therapist about?

嗯，你可以在BetterHelp找到心理咨询师。

Well, one of the place you can find a therapist is at BetterHelp.

好的。

Okay.

剩下的部分，BetterHelp 让我来读。

The rest of this, BetterHelp wants me to read.

这是之前那句话的重复，但我们还是开始吧。

It's a repeat of the earlier sentence, but here we go.

如果你一直在等待开始治疗，BetterHelp 与超过 125 个健康计划网络合作，符合条件的会员每次治疗的平均自付费用仅为 23 美元（含保险）。

If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average co pay of just $23 per session with insurance.

没有保险或者不住在美国？

Don't have insurance or don't live in The United States?

你仍然可以在第一个月享受 10% 的折扣。

You can still get 10% off your first month.

访问 betterhelp.com/kirk 来了解你的支付选项。

Visit betterhelp.com/kirk to explore your payment options.

网址是 betterhelp.com/kirk。

That's better,help.com/kirk.

好的。

Alright.

休息结束，我们回来了。

Back from the break.

那么，最高级别的赞助人，来自塞勒姆的斯隆。

So, highest tier patron Sloan from Salem.

她说……

She says...

塞勒姆，马萨诸塞州，塞勒姆，俄勒冈州。

Salem, Massachusetts, Salem, Oregon.

没说……

Doesn't say...

我有很多问题。

I have a lot of questions.

没说。

Doesn't say.

没说。

Doesn't say.

塞勒姆，俄勒冈州的首府。

Salem, Oregon, the capital of Oregon.

还是有很多女性被迫害……

Or are there lots of women who were persecuted...

塞勒姆，美国哪个首府，靠近新奥尔良的那个？

Salem, which capital of America next to New Orleans?

对了，你看过电影《女巫》吗？

Have you seen the movie Witch, by the way?

没有。

No.

你真该看看《女巫》这部电影。

You you should see the movie Witch.

我们是不是该办个观影会，一起看看？

Do we need to have a movie party where we watch?

好啊。

Okay.

这封邮件很长，但我一直特别想说……

This long email, but I've been dying to...

好吧。

Alright.

最近，我和男朋友散步时，突然心脏骤停。

Recently, I was on a walk with my boyfriend, and I went into cardiac arrest.

天哪。

Oh, Jesus.

我倒在人行道上。

And I collapsed in the sidewalk.

我非常幸运，因为救护人员就在附近，但医院告诉我男朋友和家人，我只有三天时间好转，否则他们就得开始考虑其他结果，说白了，就是拔管。

I was very lucky because paramedics were moments away, but the hospital told my boyfriend and my family that I had three days to turn around or they would have to start considering other outcomes, quote unquote, like pulling the plug.

所有人都很震惊，一个26岁的人怎么会没有任何前兆就心脏骤停。

Everyone was shocked as to how a 26 year old could go into cardiac arrest with no prior symptoms.

经过两周的医学诱导昏迷，我恢复了意识，开始康复。

After two weeks of a medically induced coma, I was conscious and starting to recover.

心脏骤停的原因是药物过量。

The cause of the cardiac arrest was an overdose.

我大量服用的那种药物导致我的心脏停止跳动，肝脏也衰竭了。

The medication that I had been taking in copious amounts had caused my heart to stop and my liver to fail.

说清楚点，这是成瘾问题。

To be clear, this is an addiction going on.

在去医院之前，我一直瞒着男朋友，不让他知道我成瘾的挣扎。

I was hiding my struggle with addiction from my boyfriend before going to the hospital.

每次他问起，我都会转移话题或者直接撒谎。

And anytime he asked, I would change the subject or just lie.

现在回想起来，我多么希望能回到过去，告诉他我有多挣扎，我多么需要帮助。

Hindsight being twenty twenty, I wish more than anything I could go back in time and communicate to him how badly I was struggling and that I desperately needed help.

但我太羞愧、太尴尬了，所以决定自己处理。

But I was so ashamed and embarrassed and therefore I decided to deal with things on my own.

因为心脏骤停给他带来的所有创伤，我感到无比内疚。

I feel so overwhelmed with guilt from all the trauma I put him through because of the cardiac arrest.

我真的无法想象他当时经历了多么可怕的时刻。

I really can't imagine how horrific the experience must have been for him.

他在大厅的小长椅上蜷缩着睡了一个星期。

He slept curled up on a small bench in the lobby for a week.

我昏迷的时候他给我读书，一直握着我的手。

He read to me while I was in a coma, and he held my hand the entire time.

我真的很难原谅自己。

I'm really struggling to forgive myself.

现在他对我的信任，理所当然地消失了。

And now his trust for me is understandably gone.

我们正在努力重建关系。

We are trying to work on rebuilding.

我从来没有像爱他那样深爱过任何人，我想我们重建，我想我们作为一对情侣走下去。

I have never had a deeper love for anyone the way I do for him, and I want us to rebuild, and I want us to make it as a couple.

我的问题是，第一，在我让他经历了那么痛苦的事情之后，你觉得我们应该如何开始重建信任？

My questions are, number one, how do you suggest we start to rebuild trust after I forced him to go through something so traumatic?

丽贝卡。

Rebecca.

天哪。

Oh my god.

其实，你没有强迫他经历任何事。

Well, you didn't force him to go through anything.

是他自己选择去经历的。

He chose to go through it.

成瘾是人类经历的一部分，从古至今都是如此。

Addiction is a part of the human experience, it it has been from the beginning of time.

关系是可以重新建立信任的。

Relationships can rebuild trust again.

我会……

I would...

你们俩……

You guys are...

你们是不是在做家庭...

I mean, are you guys in family...

你们在做夫妻咨询吗？

Are you guys in couples counseling?

天哪。

My god.

所以这里有好几件事同时在进行。

So there's several things here going on.

有你的成瘾问题，这需要处理。

There's your addiction, which needs to be addressed.

你们采用的是完全戒断的模式吗？

Are you doing an abstinence model?

还是采用减少伤害的模式？

Are you doing a harm reduction model?

这里有很多需要搞清楚的事情。

There's a lot to figure out there.

你刚刚经历的那些，会不会对你的健康有长期影响？

Do you have long term health impacts of what you just went through?

比如，有些人反应那么剧烈，医生会告诉他们必须完全戒断，因为再发生一次类似的情况可能会要命。

Like, some people who've had that intensive a reaction are told by their doctors, have to go abstinence because a second situation like this could kill you.

我不知道具体是什么物质。

I don't know what the substance is.

我只想说，我在Bumper Shoot拿了纳洛酮，还在那里学会了怎么用。

I just wanna say that I picked up Narcan at Bumper Shoot and was taught how to use it there.

所以我们住在一个提倡减少伤害的州，不是每个地方都这样。所以我学到的谈论成瘾的方式，并不是……

So, you know, we live in a harm reduction state and not every place is like that, So there's a way I was trained to talk about addiction that is not...

美国大部分地方都是基于完全戒断的模式。

Most places of America are an abstinence based model.

所以，就是这样。

So there's there's that.

你的成瘾问题需要先解决……

There's your addiction, which needs to be addressed first...

或者说不是首要的，但在这件事里是个大因素。

Or not first, but is a huge player in this.

然后还有你们的关系。

And then there is your partnership.

显然，他可能应该去参加 Al-Anon 之类的互助会，来处理他和一个有化学成瘾问题的人在一起的经历，或者找其他安全的地方谈谈他的感受。

Obviously, so he should probably be an Al Anon, to sort out his experience of being partners with someone who has chemical addiction issues or some other model where it is safe to talk about his experience.

显然，他非常爱你，或者曾经爱过你。

Obviously, he loves you very much or there was a love there.

然后还有第三个因素，就是成瘾，它导致了你们关系中的巨大裂痕。

And then there was this third player, the addiction, which caused this great rift in your relationship.

我还想说，如果这段关系最终没能走下去，你还会再爱的。

I also wanna say if it doesn't work out, you will love again.

是的，这里确实有很多事情交织在一起。

But yeah, there's a lot going on here.

你还经历了濒死，或者听起来像是真的死过一次的经历。

You've also had a near death or it sounds like an actual death experience

这会改变一个人。

Which changes people.

所以你让我变得比你想象的更不一样。

And so you made me more different than you realize.

他也经历过濒死或死亡，这也会改变他。

He's also witnessed a near death or death experience, which is also gonna change

他。

Him.

丽贝卡，我不知道你怎么想，但我从邮件里听到的是过度的自责。

I don't know about you, Rebecca, but I hear in the email an overblaming of the self.

应该有一点理性的想法，比如：天哪，我简直不敢相信我让他经历了那些。

You know, there should be a little bit of this rationally of like, oh my god, I can't believe I put him through that.

但我猜你丈夫是……

But I'm guessing your husband is...

如果他读了这封邮件，他可能会说：是啊，但你差点死了。

If he read this email, he'd be like, well, yeah, but you almost died.