爱丽丝·吴

这是一档关于个人经历与身份认同的节目。有时人们可能会使用让你感到不适的特定词汇，而这正是我们探讨的一部分。请以开放的心态聆听，一如既往，我欢迎你们礼貌而投入的反馈，并鼓励你们在自己的生活和社区中延续这场对话。欢迎收听《Query》。

This is a show about individual experience and personal identity. There may be times when folks use identifying words or phrases that don't feel right to you. That's part of what we're exploring here. Please listen with an open heart, and as always, I welcome your polite engaged feedback, and I encourage you to continue the conversation in your own life and with your own community. Welcome to Query.

嘿，酷儿同胞们，我是卡米。有个超棒的消息——救救我的书吧。为什么这句话让我自己都笑出来了？

Hey, Queeros. Cammy here. Incredibly exciting news. Save yourself my my book. Why is that making me laugh?

这是本独立出版的畅销书，在《华盛顿邮报》畅销榜上有名，超酷的。同时它也是独立书店的畅销书。我无法形容这对我多重要，因为这意味着你们许多人原本买了我的巡演门票，而当巡演取消时，成千上万本书被退回了。

It is, an indie it's a bestseller. It's an in in indie books. It's a bestseller in the Washington Post, which is cool. It's also a bestseller in indie bookstores. And I can't tell you how much that means to me, because that means that many of you bought tickets for my tour, and when that tour was cancelled, thousands of books were returned.

我失去了那些销量，更重要的是，那些与我合作的独立书店也失去了销量——在这个他们连维持营业都举步维艰的时刻。所以这本书能登上独立书店畅销榜，说明你们直接通过他们购书，帮助这些书店生存下来。这对我意义之重大，简直是我新书上市首周最震撼的成果。

You know, I lost those sales. And, more as importantly, the booksellers that were my partners on that tour lost those sales, and at a time when it's so complicated for them to keep their doors open. So, it being an indie bookstore bestseller means that you went on and you bought it from indie bookstores, helping them stay in business. And I cannot tell you how much that matters to me. It literally is the most impactful result of a first week of the book being out.

若你尚未购买，我推荐前往bookshop.org查询当地独立书店，或到libro.fm购买有声书支持本地书商。当然你也可以直接向独立书店订购，虽然亚马逊和Audible等大型平台也有售——毕竟这就是我们在美加买书的常态。

If you haven't bought it yet, I would recommend going to bookshop.org. You can find out your local indie. I would recommend going to libro.fm if you want to buy the audiobook to benefit your local indie bookseller. You can also just buy it directly from your indie bookseller. Or, it's also on Amazon and Audible and all the big places that we buy books here in The US and Canada.

但我真诚建议你从本地独立书店购买，顺便再多挑几本书带走。今天的嘉宾是才华横溢的伍思薇。能与她对话让我无比兴奋，我们筹划这次访谈已有时日——我是她十五年前处女作《面子》的忠实粉丝。大约一年前初次沟通时，她透露正在筹备第二部导演作品。

But, I would really encourage you to buy it from your local indie, and buy a bunch of other books from your local indie too. Today's guest is the fabulous Alice Wu. Was incredibly excited to speak with Alice. We've been talking for a little while about her being on Query because I'm such a big fan of her first film, Saving Face, which came out fifteen years ago. And when we first started talking, I think about a year ago, we She told me that she had in the pipeline her second film that she's directed.

新片名为《青春未知数》。访谈前我看了样片，依然深爱伍思薇式的电影语言。如果你需要既治愈又独特、既爆笑又唯美的作品，现在就可以租看或购买《面子》。而《青春未知数》将于5月1日在Netflix上线。

It's called The Half of It. I watched a screener before our chat and I really loved it. I really love the films that Alice makes. So, you're looking for something uplifting and specific and fucking funny and beautiful, Saving Face is a great movie to rent or buy right now. Also, The Half of It will be out on Netflix on May 1.

请享受与我最爱的电影人之一伍思薇的对话。不过首先，容我按节目惯例，请你做个自我介绍。

Please enjoy this conversation with one of my favorite filmmakers, Alice Wu. Well, first of all, actually, let me start by how I always start the podcast, which is by having you introduce yourself. Will you introduce yourself?

天啊。大家好，我是伍思薇，电影导演、即兴表演者、混乱系布偶控，5月1日有新片上映。必须说实话——我有些朋友虽然为我的电影高兴，但他们上这档播客的兴奋程度远超我的新片上映。

Oh, no. Hi. I'm Alice Wu. I'm a filmmaker, improviser, an order Muppet, and I have a film coming out on May 1. And I also have to say that, and this is the honest truth, that I have friends who are, like, excited about my film, but who genuinely are far more excited that I'm on this podcast than that I have a film coming out.

所以这对我真是意义非凡的时刻。

So I I have to say this is, a true moment for me.

哦，我绝对是紧张得汗流浃背了，因为我觉得你多少知道这点——毕竟我在推特私信里跟你提过好多次，但你的处女作《面子》是我有生以来最爱的电影之一。十五年前上映时我就看了，虽然不知道你当时人生境遇如何（待会我要问问），但就我而言，那段时间真的不记得看过比这更甜蜜、更纯粹又如此独特的浪漫喜剧。它构建的细节如此丰富，让整个世界真实可信——这正是顶级浪漫喜剧的精髓，对吧？

Oh, I'm fully the sweatiest because and I think you sort of know this because I've, like, I've, like, Twitter DMed you as much, but your first film, Saving Face, is one of my favorite movies of all time. Like, I saw it at so it came out fifteen years ago, and I don't know what was going on in your life at that time, and I'm going to ask ask you. But in my life at the time, I just do not remember seeing something that felt as like, a sweet and, like, truly a rom com, but it's so specific. You know, it's taking place in a world that is so detailed that it feels real, which is what the best rom coms do. Right?

它们把那种浓烈的浪漫感浓缩在一个半小时里呈现，同时用足够细腻的世界观让故事成立。从那时起我就深爱这部电影，它确实改变了我的人生——真的改变了我的人生。所以现在能和你对话，我只觉得...哇...实在太荣幸了。

Is that they take that heightened feeling of romance, try to capture it in, you know, an hour and a half or whatever, but give you a detailed enough world where it makes sense. And I just like, I've loved your movie ever since, and it's it just it, like, actually changed my life. Your movie actually changed my life. So I just feel like Wow. Completely honored to speak to you.

你介意具体说说怎么改变的吗？听到这个我真的很惶恐——当然也无比荣幸。不过那部电影远不止属于我，这个我们稍后可以聊。正如你所说，我当时只是写了段非常个人化的经历，完全没想到...天啊，十五年前谁敢相信这种片子能拍出来？

Do do you mind my asking, like, a specific like, when you say it changed your life, I I'm I'm so honored, like, incredibly. And also, that movie is much bigger than me. Like, we can talk about that later. And and the reason why is exactly what you just said, which is, like, I wrote this very specific experience, but I had no idea. I mean, first of all, who the hell thought that movie was gonna get made, right, like, fifteen years ago?

拍成后我越发觉得它超越了我个人，不仅因为全体制作人员的付出，更因为像你这样的观众。前几天有位17岁的高中校友要为校报采访我——她刚发现这部电影，她的观影体验让我深感谦卑。所以...如果不介意的话，我很想听听具体触动你的地方。

And when it did, I I honestly think, again, it it's much bigger than me, not only because of all the amazing people who came together to make it, but because of, like, people like you. And and the other day, someone from my high school who's 17 years old wanted to interview me for my high school newspaper, and she just discovered the movie. And, like, her experiences and what it meant make me feel really humbled. So so, yeah, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear, like, what specifically you took from it.

当然乐意分享。首先是些奇怪的细节共鸣：我妹妹是舞者，而女主角之一恰好也是。

Yeah. I'd love to tell you. Well, there's a couple things. First of all, this is just, like, random specificity. My sister is a dancer, so one of the main characters is a dancer.

不知为何这成了很好的切入点——虽然故事背景是华裔社区，那些超出我认知的文化细节本应陌生，但其中又掺杂着我熟悉的事物。另外就是片中的母女关系。十五年前我应该是...让我算算...

I don't know why that was a great entry point for me because, obviously, it's also about a Chinese American community. And so, like, there was the learning about some cultural specificity that was outside of my understanding, plus the overlap with something that I know really well. So that's just one thing that I'll say. Another part of it is the mom and daughter relationship in that film. You know, I was at the time fifteen years ago let's see.

当时23岁吧，正处在和父母关系特别复杂的阶段。《面子》让我震撼的是它呈现的真实感——不完美的母亲，不完美的女儿：女儿可能是工作狂，母亲因脱离社群而自卑。

How old would I have been? I would have been 23, and I was in a stage in my life where I was having a really complicated experience with my parents. And what I loved about or I think what, you know, happened to me watching watching saving face was that it it isn't it just felt very real. It felt like a complicated real parent child relationship because the the parent is flawed, the child is not perfect. It's like a a potentially a workaholic, then the mom is feeling useless in some ways because she's been separated from her community.

我在角色身上找到太多共鸣，也看到了希望——或许我和父母的关系也能修复。特别是看到母亲与自己父母和解的过程，几代人都在学习如何忠于自我。

And so it just felt like I don't know. I felt a lot of I felt a lot of commonality with the characters, and it also gave me something to look forward to. Like, that maybe I would be able to get a relationship with my parents back. And that it it could be, oh, because then the mom also has a relationship with her parents. So, you know, you see the way that generations are trying to deal with people being more true to their identity.

这些真的深深影响了我。当然两位主角接吻很甜，化学反应十足——以上来自一个紧张影迷的早期影评。

It just really affected me. And the kissing is cute, and there's chemistry between the two main characters. The end. That's that's a that's a that's a sweaty early review. Yes.

你觉得呢？

What do you think about this?

这简直是有史以来最棒的评论。我真的被深深打动了，你能如此真诚、清晰又充满情感地表达，还这么有见地。这正是我热爱的原因。现在我都语无伦次了，因为你的话让我太感动。我之所以这么问，是因为我觉得任何艺术家——尤其像我这样的电影人——在独自创作时都会经历那样的时刻。

That is, like, the best review ever. I I actually am really touched that you could speak so sort of honestly and and articulately and just like it was so emotional and so smart. And and as a you know, why I love that. So now I'm inarticulate because I'm so moved by what you said. And why I ask is because I I I think as a any probably any artist, but certainly for me as a filmmaker, you know, there's that moment when you're alone and you're writing.

在那个时刻，我努力做的就是写出情感上最真实的感受。我始终相信，细节越具体，就越能引发普遍共鸣。作为电影人，我坚信人类的相似远多于差异——我们渴望以各种方式去爱，渴望归属感，也渴望找到生命的意义。

And I think in that moment, the thing I try to do is write the thing that feels most emotionally honest to me. And I generally believe that the more specific you are, the more universal things become. And that has to do with I mean, just as a as a filmmaker, I fundamentally believe that we're far more similar than we are different, and that most people we pretty much want the same things. We we want a chance to love in all the various ways we can. We wanna belong, And we probably all want some sort of sense that we have a purpose in our lives.

对吧？无论你是同性恋、双性恋、黑人还是亚裔，这种渴望都不会改变。当初我为经历低谷的母亲创作这部电影时，这个理论得到了验证——她当时难以接受我出柜的事实。

Right? I I don't think that really changes so much, no matter whether you are gay or you're bi or you're black or you're Asian. It and given that and and I guess for me, it was just a theory I had, but it proved true when this film that I very much wrote for my mom. I I I wrote it as my mom was going through a hard time. She had a very hard time with my coming out as gay.

我在大四那年出柜，此后多年她都很痛苦。二十七八岁时——正是片中主角的年龄——我写下这个剧本，想告诉母亲：她的人生仍有追求爱的可能。

I came out my senior year of college, and and it was very difficult for her for many years. And I wrote this film in my late twenties. Right? And, you know, it was like around 27, 28, right when the main character, like, at the main character's age. And the goal for me was I was working through trying to tell my mom that it wasn't too late in her life to find love.

有趣的是，整个创作过程我都以为是写给母亲的。直到电影上映才意识到，这其实是个自私的作品——它完全是在诉说我自己对爱与家庭的双重渴望。

Right? And and so as I'm writing this, it's so funny because the whole time I'm making this film, I think I'm writing it for my mom. But I think it's that thing where once the film was made and it came out, I realized I'm far more selfish than that. Like, that was totally about me. Right?

作为酷儿群体，我们很少看到既真实又圆满的叙事。要么是脱离现实的童话，要么是强化悲剧的'现实主义'。我还有个理论：当你在柜中成长时——甚至对自己都不坦诚——比如我小学三四年级就有暗恋女生的记忆，但你知道这些心动永远不能言说。

Like, it's it's like, I wrote it for my mom, but when I watch it, I realize, oh, this is really about someone who desperately wants to be able to have romantic love and have her family. And as queer people, we rarely get to see images of sometimes having either, frankly, but certainly not having both in a way that feels honest. You know, it often feels either it feels like we're watching, like, a fair total fairy tale where nothing feels real, or it feels very depressing because you end up with these, you know, it's like more quote unquote realistic, but it seems to enforce the message. And and I I also have I'm I'm detouring a bit, so tell me if this is a bad meandering. But I I I do have a theory that growing up, when you're closeted, and maybe you're not even out to yourself, which is what was true for me.

这种沉默会强化'爱与你无关'的认知。无论是否意识到，你会觉得酷儿的情路注定悲剧——最好的结局不过是永远暗恋，或是短暂欢愉后的永别。

But I had crushes on girls that I can remember from, like, third or fourth grade. But you you kinda know that these are not crushers you can talk about. Right? So it sort of enforces this idea that love is kinda not for you. Oh, yeah.

所以当我拍摄这部电影时，让故事以'真实的方式'获得圆满结局——让主角同时拥有爱情与亲情——在当时简直是种颠覆性的表达。

Right? Like, whether you're conscious of it or not, you think, well, clearly, if you can't ever tell anyone about this, then probably the arc of love for someone who's queer is necessarily tragic. Because the best case scenario would be something like maybe you just harbored this crush forever, and they're your friend. Or maybe something happens between the two of you, but then you can never see each other again. Or, you know, like, this is sort of what you think is the best there is.

是的。

Yes.

没错。这种'双全'的可能性，在当时感觉就像一场温柔的叛逆。

Yeah. So the idea of of when I made this film that maybe things could end happily, quote, unquote, in a real way. Right? Like, not not, like, in a way of I get to have both, at the time felt incredibly subversive. Yes.

所以你说的每句话都在印证这一点。有趣的是电影上映后，我总被问到同一个问题——在电影节上，有时评论家会说‘这不过是自我安慰的胡扯，现实中不可能发生’，而普通观众则会问‘这种事真的可能吗？’

And so everything you're saying kind of bears that out. And what was funny is when the film did come out, literally the one thing I got all the time is I got asked at festivals. Sometimes critics would be like, oh, this is like feel good nonsense. Like, this wouldn't happen. Or know, people at festivals are like, could that really happen?

作为导演这很滑稽，因为我会想：我也不知道啊。我只是写了这个故事，我又不是上帝，没法预言未来。但我也很清楚自己的立场——

And it's funny as a filmmaker because it's like, I don't know. I just wrote this thing. I'm not God. I can't tell you what's gonna happen. But I also knew that I was like, listen.

我...我真的不知道。不知道这是否能发生在每个人身上。但我相信那些角色能够抵达彼岸，同时也深知这个设定有多颠覆。可话说回来，如果连放手一搏都不敢，我们何必倾注心血拍电影呢？对吧？

I I I don't know. I I don't know if it can happen for everyone. I do think for those characters, I believe that they could get there, but I'm aware of how subversive that is. But I will also tell you that why bother making a film and putting all that blood and sweat into something if you're not gonna go for it? Right?

如果只是告诉所有人'没错，你认定的生活现状就是全部了'，那我的创作还有什么意义？作为酷儿女性，我的目标是让你感受到与更广阔世界的联结，为自己怀抱更多希望。虽然我不知道这种结局是否真实，但我必须相信它存在——因为我需要亲眼看见它，否则永远无法相信。

Like, what what there's no point in my telling everybody, yes. You know, like, I I don't wanna leave you in a place where you feel like and whatever it is that you think your life is, that's all it's gonna be. Like, my goal is to hopefully make you feel connected to something larger and hope for more for yourself. And so my goal at that point is like, look, I I, as a queer woman, I don't know if this can happen, but I really want and need to believe it can, and I need to see it. Otherwise, I will never be able to believe it can.

最奇妙的是十五年后，人们现在谈论这部电影的态度完全变了。当年它获得了好评，但大家只觉得是部温馨小品。如今却被奉为神作，更讽刺的是再没人觉得结局过于美好了。

And the fascinating thing is that fifteen years later, like, people now talk about that film as if it's like because I would say the time it came out, it was well reviewed. But I think even then, it was just like, oh, this is like a sweet thing. People now talk about it as if it's this amazing thing, but what's really funny is that nobody thinks the ending is too happy.

哇，是的。我读过你随新片《半部》放映发送的导演信，里面就谈到这个。听你讲述时我在想，某种程度上你是在为自己拍摄一部'理想投射之作'——

Wow. Yes. I read that because you sent out a a director's letter Yes. With the screener for your new film, the half of it, and I read it. And that's sort of one thing that you covered in it was this I mean, it's funny because what I hear in what you're saying is that you were making, in some ways, the aspirational film for yourself to aspire to.

当文化中缺乏某种叙事时，有时我们必须亲手创造它。作为艺术家，我深刻体会过这种张力：既要构建理想化的未来图景，又要直面真实的痛苦。顺便说，这种痛苦不是指那种陈腐套路——比如两个女孩接吻时突然被穿堂而过的子弹击中，天啊《地球百子》里还真这么演过！

Like, given that there's nothing in the culture that exists, sometimes we have to make the thing. And I certainly feel as an artist, the tension between having and getting to create the aspirational version of your future, and then also acknowledging, like, the true pain and suffering. Because I think that's sort of what you're talking about. And by the way, the true pain and suffering is not necessarily what I think you were also alluding to, which is like I mean, I always talk about the trope that, like, like, two it's like the lesbian kiss, and then, they both get shot through, like, like, an errant bullet that comes through the through two windows at the same time. Like, how I mean, that literally happened in a in a show, the 100.

抱歉我太激动了...当时中的是箭不是子弹。我想说的是，既有这种剥削性的直人视角，也有像《月光男孩》这样的作品——它确实有个美好结局，但并非浪漫喜剧，而且比你电影晚了十三年。

It doesn't matter. I'm very deep in my eyes. The the but it was an arrow, not a gun. But so I think, like, there's that sort of exploitative straightness view, but then there's, like, you know, there's Moonlight, and I guess that movie does have a beautiful happy ending. But it's not a rom com and also came out, you know, thirteen years or whatever after your film.

你的观点让我既共鸣又愤怒：为什么我们不能创造根植于现实的幻想？

I think, like, I just hear what you're saying, and it's like I mean, that is so that makes me it it makes me pissed off because it's like we don't get to create our own rooted in reality fantasies.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像做单口喜剧并讲述我的生活故事时，我有时会选择分享某个故事更美好的一面，因为有时我们确实能拥有这样的视角。你知道，我觉得仅仅因为我们是酷儿且深陷挣扎，并不意味着我们就不能为自己想象一个美好时刻，不能期待一个圆满结局。我们同样有权利去想象——而这一点让我感到既有趣又触动。我知道听众可能占大多数。

Like doing stand up and talking about my life, I have sometimes chosen to share a rosier view of a particular story because sometimes we get to have a rosy view. You know, like, I just think be because we're queer and we're mired in struggle than, like, then we don't get to imagine a beautiful moment for us for ourselves. We don't get to imagine a payoff. We don't imagine we don't get to imagine and I and it's also been really interesting and impactful to me. I know that this is mostly gonna be listeners.

不是大多数，是全部听众。但你刚才提到自己仍与家人保持联系。通过Zoom看到你身后的家庭照片——那是家人对吧？

Not mostly. This is gonna be only listeners. But you're talking to me about being a per person who still is connected to their family. And because we're on Zoom and I'm in your home, I can see that, like, over your shoulder, I believe are family photos. Yes.

我妈妈和外婆...你想看看吗？

My mom, my grand do you wanna see them?

天啊。

Oh my god.

是啊，在播客里看这个挺怪的。

Yeah. Weird on a podcast.

我超想看的！这些是你的家庭照吗？我的天...

I would love to see them. Yeah. Yeah. These are your family photos. Oh my god.

感觉太荣幸了，这真的太酷了。

I feel like completely honored. This is so cool. Okay.

这张是我最爱的——是我母亲那边的祖父母。

So this is one of my favorites. This these are my grandparents on my mom's side.

哇塞...

Oh my gosh.

我外公简直像亚洲版的格里高利·派克。

My grandfather literally looks like Asian Gregory Peck.

他太迷人了。我是说，显然你祖母也很美，但天哪，你祖父那鼻子简直是个真正的万人迷。

He's stunning. I mean, obviously, your grandmother also is, but like, geez, your grandfather is a true fox with that nose.

确实如此。我相当确定是因为他们在安徽省的一个小镇长大，那里据说是马可·波罗走过的丝绸之路的一部分。所以我深信某个意大利罗马人和当地人结合了，不然他那鼻子基因从哪来的？

It's true. I'm actually pretty sure, because they they grew up in a tiny town in the province of Anhui, and that's where apparently Marco Polo's like, that was part of that Road. And so I'm super convinced that some Italian Roman person made it with somebody, because where the hell did he get that news?

那是个非常非常挺拔的鼻子。

It's a very it's a very sharp nose.

是的。这张有点模糊。这是我妈妈，她当时很年轻。不知道你能不能看清。

Yes. This is kinda lurse. This is my mom. She was very young. I don't know if you can see that.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

嗯。

Yeah.

照片里她在哪儿？看起来像是慵懒地倚靠着什么

Where is she there in this photo? She's, like, lounging sort of it

像是旧金山的金门公园。

looks like San Francisco in the Golden Gate Park.

哦，从这个分辨率我能看到桥

Oh, I can see the bridge in the resolution of

相机继续

the cam on

照片。哦，找到了。天啊。是的。就是她。

the photo. Oh, there it is. Oh my god. Yes. She is.

对，对。这没问题。所以我得告诉你。我大概可以给你看看。

Yeah. Yeah. And this is okay. So I have to tell you. In I could probably show you.

在我家族里，我普遍被认为是个丑宝宝，而且中国人说话从不拐弯抹角。他们就是实话实说。现在我给你看了我的家人...等等，我再给你看一张我妈妈的照片。这里还有一张我妈的照片。

I was universally considered in my family an ugly baby, and Chinese people do not pull their punches. Like, they just say it like it is. And now that I've shown you my family Oh, hang on. Let me show you another photo of my mom. So there's another photo of my mom.

天哪，她真美。看看她。是的，她很漂亮。

Oh my gosh. Like, she's beautiful. Look at her. Yes, she's beautiful.

没错。所以家族那边的人都非常非常好看，而我长得一点都不像他们。作为婴儿——我说这个其实很自豪他们的样子——但特别好笑的是我出生时，这要归功于我妈妈，我成长过程中显然充满自信。但等到上学时，这些自信全没了。简直就是场灾难。

Yes. So that whole side of the family is very, very attractive, and I look nothing like them. And as a baby, and I say this very proudly of how they are and how they look, but it was super funny to me that when I was born, like, and this is a testament to my mom, I apparently was full of confidence growing. Like as a a baby, I lost it all by the time I went to school. That was like a disaster.

但我也...我觉得我根本不在乎，全家人都会说'天啊这孩子以后怎么嫁得出去'。我真的无所谓。可能那时候我就知道自己性取向不同？我不确定。但这事确实被公开讨论过，就像'这孩子可怎么办啊'。

But I also, I think I didn't you know, like my whole family would be like, oh my god, how are we gonna marry this one off? I really just didn't care. Like, I think I think it's I mean, maybe maybe I knew I was queer then. I don't I don't know. But I think that it it was, like, actively discussed as in, like, oh, what will we do with this one?

不过我有点感激这段经历。毕竟我是人嘛，长大后当然也会虚荣。当你开始想吸引别人时，当然希望自己好看。但我从来没有那种...可能因为我看着我妈妈——这么美丽的女人——以及伴随而来的所有包袱，看到人们怎么对待她。

But I'm sort of grateful because, you know, I mean, I'm human. Of course, I'm vain as I got older. Of course, you know, when you start to want to attract someone, you want to look good. But I never really had the I'm I don't know. Maybe because I also watched my mom, this very beautiful woman, and all the baggage that comes along with that in terms of how people treated her, you know?

她是个精彩绝伦的人。谢天谢地她特别幽默热情，性格超棒——可能正因为她对自己外貌毫无自信，她从不承认自己漂亮。说实话，可能这也和移民身份有关，来到西方社会后得不到认可。但这反而让我...我不知道...

And she's a wonderful, marvelous person. Like, thank God she's incredibly funny and warm, she has a great personality, probably because she has such low self esteem about like, she herself would not acknowledge she's beautiful. Right? And maybe that's also being an immigrant, honestly, like coming here and maybe the Western society didn't acknowledge it. But it really helped me not I don't know.

我没有太多这方面的心理包袱，因为我从没觉得'天啊我必须漂亮'。说实话那看起来压力太大了。

It's not something that I have as much baggage around because I never thought, oh god. I need to be pretty. Because it just honestly seemed so stressful.

这太有意思了。我...我觉得还有几个后续问题想问，因为以旁观者视角——你可以不同意——我觉得无论如何你都算传统意义上的有魅力的成年人，对吧？

That's so interesting to me. Well, I I feel like there's, like, a couple follow-up questions I wanna ask because, I mean, I would say, like, this is an outsider's opinion, so you do not have to agree with me. I would say, like, by any account, you are, like, a conventionally attractive adult. Right?

你不这么觉得吗？好吧。这开始有点尴尬了。不。但我

Do you not feel that way? Okay. This is starting to get embarrassing. No. But I

我只是想说，就像，我只是想说，好吧。这是我的问题。我问这个问题的原因是，小时候我收到很多关于外貌的评价，其中一些我现在意识到其实是性别规训。比如，后来我发现我完全无法判断自己是否有吸引力。

just mean, like, I just mean, like, okay. Here's my question. Here's why I asked this question. When I was a kid, I got a lot of information about how I looked, some of which I actually think was gender patrolling. Like, I have realized later in my life that I have a very hard time identifying whether or not I'm attractive, like, at all.

因为我因为我

Because I because I

我确实有好几个朋友会从生物学角度反驳

I literally have multiple friends who would disagree biologically with

你，不过继续吧。嗯，我觉得这根本不是真实存在的。懂吗？作为一个展现当下这种男性气质的人，有些人对此有强烈的正面反应，有些人则有强烈的负面反应。

you, but go ahead. Well, I it just isn't a real thing. You know? I think, like, as somebody who has like, the masculinity that I am displaying right now, some people have a strong response to that is positive. Some people still have a strong response response to that is negative.

比如说，我走在街上可能还会被人辱骂，然后去演出现场又可能得到完全不同的反应。明白吗？我觉得很难在文化中找到自己的定位，因为我收到过非常积极和非常消极的评价。我在想这是否与你所说的情况相关。但还有一层特殊性，就是作为亚裔女性在美国文化中的处境，这又完全是另一回事——人们会不断对你的外貌指指点点。

Like, for instance, like, I could still somebody could still say shit to me on the street, and then I'm walking to a show where then somebody responds in a very different way. You know what I mean? Like, there's, like, I just think as a I find that it's hard to place for me where I fit in culture because I have gotten very positive messages and very negative messages. And I just am wondering if any of that could relate to what you're talking about. But then there's an additional specificity, which is being an Asian woman in American culture, which is like a whole other thing in terms of people giving you messaging about how you look.

我我我不知道。

I I I don't know.

首先，我很高兴我们能聊这个话题。能让我先感慨下这个问题吗？因为我从未真正有过这样的对话。虽然和朋友零星讨论过，但你刚才说的太棒了——我们从小就被灌输传统审美标准。而你现在暗示的是，在酷儿群体内部还存在另一种

First of all, I love that we're talking about this. Can I just appreciate that problem? Because I've never actually had this conversation. So, I mean, I guess in little ways with my friends, but I I love what you just said because you're absolutely right that, you know, growing up, we're given conventional images of what is attractive. But also what I hear and what you're alluding to is within the queer community, there's yet a different kind of

完全不同的范式。

Totally different paradigm.

没错。这有时让我觉得，某种程度上酷儿就像...我强烈认同自己的移民身份。英语不是我的母语。但作为酷儿，我们常感觉像是社会中的移民——要么我们'伪装'得让人看不出异常，要么就因特质暴露而遭遇困境，这很令人沮丧。

Exactly. Which sometimes feeds into my belief that, in a way, queer like, I I strongly identify with being an immigrant. Right? Like, English isn't my first language. But I often feel like when you're queer, we're also like immigrants in, you know, in a segment of society because we we're not people either we quote, unquote pass and people can't tell that there's something about us, and that's frustrating.

没错。或者我们直接做个选择，然后无法通过。那就是完全不同的情况了。

Right. Or we just make a choice, and we can't pass. And then that's a whole different thing.

对吧？是的。

Right? Yes.

而且这周围还笼罩着各种不同的愧疚感，比如，如果你真的遵从传统社会对美的标准，你的酷儿群体会怎么想？所有那些方式，我的意思是，大多数时候，我庆幸每当出现那种程度的颠覆时，我觉得它为更多不同类型的人创造了按自己意愿生活的机会。但这并不意味着我们不需要处理那些因多年成长于僵化结构中而产生的情感包袱。所以这很有趣。我...是的。

And it there's a layer of different sorts of guilt around, like, what happens if you do ascribe to conventional society's standards of beauty, how will your queer community feel? All the ways that that like, it's it's a whole I mean, for the most part, I celebrate the fact that anytime there's that level of disruption, I feel like it creates opportunity for more different kinds of people to be the way they want. But that doesn't mean we don't still all have to deal with the emotional baggage that comes from years of growing up with those rigid sort of structures. So it's interesting. I I yeah.

嗯，我想问你，当你谈到...我非常喜欢你将移民经历与酷儿身份相比较，大概就是那种作为访客却又属于这个文化的概念。你知道，就像你不断被提醒着自己的异类身份。同时，你没有其他地方可以真正属于，所有这些事情的张力。今早我看了《校园情圣》，并对比思考了《面子》，顺便恭喜你的新电影。我看的时候一直在笑。

Well, I wanna ask you, when you when you were talking about I I love your comparison of the immigrant experience with queerness, I guess, sort of that idea of being a visitor, in a culture that you also are part of. You know, like, you're constantly reminded of your otherness. Meanwhile, you have no other place that is your place to be, you know, the the tension of all of those things. And I was watching, the half of it this morning and thinking about that in contrast to saving face and congrats on the new film, by the way. I was, like, smiling the entire time I watched it.

我...我只是...能有作品让我有机会观看让我感到非常开心。谢谢。一个立即引起我注意的巨大区别是，《面子》里...我试着回想，除了医院场景，那部电影里是否有任何白人角色，好像真的没有。是的。

I I just I felt so happy to have, work for me to get a chance to watch. And Thank you. Huge difference that, like, stood out to me immediately is that the saving faces I was trying to think if, like, besides at the hospital, if there are any white characters in that movie, like, it's not really. Yeah.

严格来说有一个，像是...

There's literally one, like,

两个。

two.

那个女性的朋友。对。电影里一个白人男性都没有。是的。没错。

The friend of a woman. Yeah. There's not a single white man in the movie. Yes. Yeah.

这是有意为之还是自然发生的？其实不是刻意说'这部电影不要白人男性'。但在选角过程中，我的选角导演海蒂·格里菲斯转头看着我说：'你意识到我们没有为任何白人男性角色选角吗？'我当时反应是'天啊'。然后我想，好吧，可能这就是我的世界吧。

Which deliberate about it just happened. Like, it wasn't, like, said, no white men in this movie. But after the fact, as we're casting, my casting director Heidi Griffiths turned and looked at me and was, you realize there are no white men that we're casting for? And I was, oh my god. And then I was like, well, I guess that's just my world.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

是的。我是说，《面子》中那些选择至今仍让我印象深刻，主角的恋爱对象的父亲同时也是她的上司。这样我们得以看到一些父母辈的移民经历，这些经历未必能转化为经济上的成功。同时也能看到那些在外部视角下被视为在美国范式里取得成功的人物。而这些角色全都是亚裔。

Yeah. I mean, I I thought that something that is impactful still to me about, like, the choices made in Saving Face, the main character's love interest's father is also her boss. And so I think you you get a chance to see in some of the parents, like, immigrant experience that doesn't necessarily translate to financial success. And then you also get a chance to see somebody who would be looked at from the outside as, like, succeeding in an American paradigm. And all of those folks are Asian characters.

这些人其实我甚至不确定——他们都是华裔演员吗？

All those folks are I actually don't even know. Are all are all of those Chinese actors?

是的。因为选角非常严格，他们大多会说普通话，甚至有两人会说上海话。我不得不说，感谢我的选角导演Heidi Griffiths，她至今仍是我最亲密的朋友，也是世界上最有耐心的人，因为我对选角极其挑剔。我会直接说'不行'。

They are. I I they're very much because it I was so specific because so many of them speak Mandarin, but then even, like, two of them speak Shanghainese. And I was like, literally, thank God my casting director for Heidi Griffiths is still an incredibly close friend and the world's most patient person, because I'm a bitch to cast for. I'm extremely specific. I literally will be like, nope.

我会继续寻找直到找到理想人选。不过没错，所有演员都是华裔。

I'm I'm gonna keep looking until I find what I want. And the but yes, everyone is. And yeah.

而且你算是早期开拓者了。现在回想起来，十五年前能做出这样的选择实在值得赞赏，因为当时大多数人都不会考虑这点，大多数选角导演和导演也不会优先考虑这些。但在你的新片中，主角有位父亲，他们生活在一个白人占绝大多数的镇上。

Early adopter too. There. That's that's like a that I just feel like now if that that would be a I just wanna take a moment and appreciate that fifteen years ago because that was not a trace most people were making and that most casting directors were prioritizing and that most directors were prioritizing. But then in in your new film, the main character has a a father, and then they live in a town where massively white town. Yes.

所以这就形成了完全不同的种族关系。当然，角色本身...我想对于任何有色人种来说，可能这两种经历都是可能存在的。我很好奇你的成长经历——你是高中里唯一的华裔孩子吗？你成长的环境是怎样的？

And so there there's there's a very that's a very different relationship to race. Of course, like, the character themselves. Of course, I would also imagine that, like, I would imagine for any person of color, maybe both of those thing most of maybe both of those are experiences are possible. I guess I wanted to know, like, in terms of how you grew up, like, were you the, you know, only Chinese kid at your high school? What was your what was your environment like growing up?

这是个很好的问题。首先，尽管我父母是新移民，我母亲特别担心我会变得'太美国化'，所以家里只说普通话。周末我们偶尔会接触华人社区。

Yeah. That's a great question, and and a couple of things come to mind. First of all, despite the fact that my parents were very like, they're very recent immigrants, my mom was really kind of obsessed with this idea of my not becoming too, quote, unquote, American. So we only spoke Mandarin at home. And certainly, there was a Chinese community that we would see sometimes on the weekends.

但随着父母经济地位提升，我们每隔几年就搬家。从破旧公寓搬到稍好的公寓，再到第一套房子，再到更好的房子。而随着他们阶层上升，社区的白人比例越来越高。

But as my parents were also kind of rising the economic ranks. So we're moving every few years. Right? We're going from this crappy apartment to a slightly less crappy apartment to a slightly less crappy apartment to the first home to a better home. And I will say that as they rose those ranks, the neighborhoods got wider and wider.

我出生的第一个公寓里，邻居都是黑人或墨西哥裔。事实上，我学会普通话后第一个开始说的外语是西班牙语，把我妈吓坏了。这很有趣，但也真实反映了我的成长环境——虽然深爱父母，但确实在种族主义、性别歧视和恐同氛围中长大（这很讽刺，因为我现在是个亚裔老拉拉）。这种经历是美国现实的一部分，我们需要诚实面对才能改变。但随着环境越来越'白'，我越来越难交到朋友，高中时只有三个朋友。

Like my the first apartment I was born in, everybody was black or Chicano, actually. In fact, after Mandarin, the first language, apparently, I started speaking with Spanish, and my mom freaked out and was like, oh my god, we which is hilarious, but also just an honest commentary on, like, look, I grew up, and I adore my parents, but absolutely, grew up with racist, sexist, and homophobic attitudes, which is hilarious because I'm an old Asian dyke now. But at the time, you know, there's that that's like a real part of of, I think, the American experience that a lot of times I wanna be honest about, because unless you're you are, how do we work on those things? But then as the environments got wider, I will say it became harder and harder for me to feel like, I I think I had I had far more friends when I was younger. And as by the time I got to high school, I would have, like, three friends.

那是段非常孤独的时光，直到大学情况才有所改善。

And it was a very lonely time. And it wasn't until college that things opened up for me again.

我正想问呢，因为这些都是你成长过程中的事，全都在加州对吧？加州不同的地方？

I was just gonna ask because this is all when you were growing up, this is all in California. Right? Different different places in California?

我确实在密歇根住过，在一个叫特洛伊的小镇上，那时我还很小，那里几乎全是白人。我父亲当时在通用汽车工厂工作。但后来我们搬回了湾区，那还是在硅谷兴起之前。所以在圣何塞长大的环境，和现在完全不一样。

I did live in Michigan Michigan. In a very tiny town called Troy when I was very young, which was very white. My dad was working at the GM factory. But then we moved back to the Bay Area, and that was before Silicon Valley. So it wasn't the you know, growing up in San Jose was, like, a very different situation than it is now.

不过说到这个——如果跑题了请打断我——我选择现在这个电影背景的原因是，我觉得我的作品特点在于...就像你刚才暗示的，《面子》和《校园情圣》是截然不同的电影类型。虽然我的创作风格和内核是相似的，但拍《面子》时，我是想用极低的预算拍出最宏大的浪漫喜剧，而且全部启用亚裔演员。对我们来说这很新鲜，因为以前从没见过这样的作品。而《校园情圣》有个很商业化的切入点，你完全可以把它设定在橙县某所白人高中，拍成《魅力四射》或《独领风骚》那样的校园片。

But towards that, and tell me if this is detouring, because I it why I chose to set the film where it is now is that, you know, I think the thing about my work, because as as I think you were kind of alluding to, Saving Face and The Half of It are really different sorts of films. I think the my my voice and the DNA of it are similar, but with Saving Face, was trying to make the biggest romantic comedy I could on a tiny budget with all Asian American and Asian faces. Right? Like, for me, that felt interesting because we never got to see that. With The Half of It, I again, there's like a very commercial hook to it where you could easily set this in, like, a big high school in Orange County with all white characters, and it could be like a Bring It On or a Clueless.

对吧？节奏更快、更夸张的喜剧，那样也会很棒。就像莎拉·诺埃那样的青春片套路，完全可以拍成那种感觉，而且效果会很好。

Right? Like a much faster, broader comedy, and that could be great. Like, there's a Sarah No Hook. It could be very much like a girl. Like, they're like that whole thing, and that that's great.

但对我来说，我总在想：为什么要拍别人都能拍的东西？这世界上并不缺我一个导演，说实话世界也不需要多我一部电影，优秀的作品已经够多了。

But for me, I'm always like, but why would I make that movie? It feels like any number of other people could. So why you know, like, I'm not somebody who feels like the world owes me a movie and I should make a movie. Like, honestly, the world doesn't need another movie from me. Like, there's plenty of great content out there.

对我来说，我总是非常专注于具体项目。比如，我是否热爱这件事？如果我热爱它，我会拼尽全力让它实现，但同时我也想以非常独特的方式呈现。从这个意义上说，我当时想，既然要创作这个——我是从特朗普刚当选时开始动笔的。最初构思时，那还是在好莱坞尚未像最近几年那样‘发现’多样性之前。

So for me, I'm always very project specific. Like, do I love this thing? And if I love this thing, I'm going to kill to get it made, but I also wanna make it very specifically. And so in that sense, I'm like, well, if I'm going to make this I mean, I started to write it when Trump had just been elected. And initially, was thinking about, like and it was also before it was in that a moment before Hollywood had, quote, unquote, discovered diversity as they have in, like, the last couple years.

我记得当时决定：我就要写这个故事，可能还得花五年才能拍出来。但为什么不呢？我偏要把主角设定为华人，就要按照我的方式来处理。

And I remember being like, well, I'm gonna write this thing. It's probably gonna take me another five years to get made. Right? Like, I'm but why the heck won't I I'm gonna make the main character Chinese. And I'm gonna, like, I'm I'm just gonna do the way things the way I do them.

就算要花五年甚至更久也无所谓。但另一个关键决定是：我不想拍成年代剧。不想局限在八十年代末或九十年代。因为现实是，恐同现象至今存在，移民歧视至今存在。

And if it takes me five years or it takes me forever, it does. But the one of the other things that happened is I was like, hey, I don't want to make this a period piece. I don't want to be like, okay, when the late eighties and the nineties. Like, I wanted to be like, no, because let's face it, homophobia exists today. Immigrant bullying exists today.

更重要的是，特朗普当选时，我并非不知道种族主义、性别歧视、恐同和跨性别恐惧症在这个国家的存在。但让我震惊的是，似乎有这么多人因为终于能公开表达这些观点而感到解脱。这让我不禁思考——

And on top of that, I you know, when Trump got elected, I it's not like I didn't know racism, sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia don't exist in the country. Obviously, I knew that. I think I was viscerally startled by how much of the country seemed relieved that they could now openly sort of Right. You know, express these views. And it made me wonder, like, well, wait a minute.

作为一个坚信人性本善、认为多数人在获得资源后会选择做体面事的人，这意味着什么？难道说这个国家大片区域都充斥着所谓的‘坏人’？但这也让我不得不承认：我自己就成长于一个非常保守的华人家庭，我们曾经充满种族歧视、性别歧视和恐同思想。那我父母算是坏人吗？

You know, as somebody who fundamentally believes most people are good and that given the resources, most people would choose to do the decent thing, what does this mean? Does this mean whole stretches of the country are filled with, quote, unquote, bad people? But that made me then think about the fact that if I'm incredibly honest, I grew up in a very conservative Chinese family, and we were totally racist and sexist and homophobic. Right? And, like, are my parents bad?

而我...我其实不...我的父母是非常好的人。真的，我真心认为他们是善良的人。我觉得他们天生持有截然不同的态度，虽然如今已改变许多。但能见证这种转变，也让我对国内某些地区产生了某种共鸣或同理心——我在想，既然这种变化能发生在我家，为什么不能发生在其他家庭呢？是的。

And I I I don't I real my parents are wonderful people. Like, I truly think they're good people. I think that they were born with very different attitudes, which since then, they've come a long way. But being able to see that trajectory also gives me a level of maybe connection or empathy to parts of the country where I I think, like, well, you know, if that could happen to my family, why couldn't it happen in all these families? Yeah.

所以当时我就决定：好吧，我要直面这个。我避免直接称其为'特朗普票仓'，因为我和创作团队的目标始终有两个基准：真实性和永恒性。我不想过度迎合当下潮流，那样会让影片显得过时。

And so that's when I was like, alright. I'm gonna suck this. I don't say it's Trump country because my goal with any of my films is, like, again, with my creative team, I'm like, I have two touchstones. One is authenticity and one is timelessness. I don't wanna lean too hard into the trends of the moment because then it dates the film.

没错。就像《面子》至今看来仍具现实意义，这让我很自豪。我希望十五年后人们看《半部好戏》时，依然能感受到那种...怎么说...永恒的品质。所以影片虽未提及特朗普，但我确实刻意将故事设定在华盛顿州东部——一个保守的白人小镇，那里实质就是特朗普的票仓。

Right. Like, I'm very proud that you could watch Saving Face today, and it still feels, like, relevant. Right? And I want people to be able to watch the half of it in fifteen years and still feel like, oh, these feel like like you you can still feel like there's there's a sort of, again, timelessness to it. So I don't say Trump, but the reality is I purposely said it in Eastern Washington State, in a very conservative white town, that's Trump country.

这很有趣。请允许我插一句：光是这个设定就很有意思。当我们谈论'特朗普票仓'时，主流叙事总引导我们联想南方州、黑人白人冲突、对奥巴马总统的种族敌意。而你将焦点放在华盛顿州东部，这种打破思维定式的选择很耐人寻味——毕竟我曾多次实地探访过这类地区。

That's interesting. Even just I just wanna break in and say, even just that is interesting because I think that, again, you know, in talking about your your, like, yearning for specificity, Identifying Eastern Washington State as Trump country is not where most it's not where we're taught. It's not where, like, the prevailing mindset when they would say Trump country, like, as a nation, we we're supposed to think about the South and like biscuits, you know, and we're supposed to think about tension between black and white, and we're supposed to think about a racism toward president Obama specifically. And Mhmm. I think that that is really an interesting choice because, you know, something I have done multiple multiple times.

特朗普胜选后，我专门驱车行驶在波特兰到西雅图的5号公路上。外界总把这两座城市想象成白人进步主义天堂，但沿途乡村却遍布邦联旗——巨型旗帜在后院旗杆上飘扬，墙上涂满标志。每次看到都让我震惊：你们甚至不是邦联成员啊！这根本就是在公开宣扬种族主义。

I've I've been to, like, where this is set, and I have also after Trump won election, I I drove the five between Portland and Seattle. And that had that's a that's a highway, and it it goes through it starts you know, Portland, Seattle, these, like I think if you've never even been there, the exported idea is that they are, like, white progressive heaven or whatever. The rural areas between there are covered in Confederate flags, which is like there's Confederate flags painted everywhere, giant Confederate flags flopping off of huge flagpoles that are in somebody's backyard. And I and it just is it's it always strikes me because, like, you weren't even you guys, you weren't even part of this. Like, this is

显然与那段历史毫无瓜葛

you clearly were not part of

没错。有些狡猾的白人可能把邦联旗印在比基尼上说'这只是佛罗里达风情'，但在华盛顿州？这绝对与佛罗里达无关。这种精准的地域洞察让作品更具说服力。

the Confederacy, so this is just flying a flag that says racism. Like, there's, like, there's not Mhmm. And I mean, course, that's always what the Confederate flag means, but sometimes what, you know, a very wily white person can, like, put it on a bikini and be like, no. It just means Florida or whatever. But, like, in Washington state, it, like, definitely doesn't mean Florida.

另外，关于你提到的《大鼻子情圣》叙事弧——观影时我就注意到，这个故事完全可以选择其他背景。但正是这个特定社区的选择，依我之见，让整部电影焕发出独特魅力。

You know? So I really appreciated that, and I think that that is the sort of specificity that makes the work make a lot of sense. And I will also just wanna say before we keep going that, you know, you sort of talking about the the, like, Cyrano arc and and things about this movie that could be I mean, I really that's I've really even noticed that watching it. I was like, oh, this is a movie that could just be like, in terms of plot points, it could just be totally different than this. There's there's no inherent need for this to be this community, except that it makes the movie, I mean, my opinion, much more interesting.

当我思考...

And when I think about

我认为这增添了质感。我们追求更丰富的层次感和人物真实性。相比《面子》刻意营造的浪漫喜剧氛围，这次我们采取了更自然主义的拍摄手法。

I think there's more texture. Like, the goal is to have more texture and to make the people feel authentic. Like, I I this is a much more naturalistic movie than Saving Face, because Saving Face, I'm trying to do a broader romantic comedy.

对。

Right.

但我认为《面子》能成功或持久的部分原因在于角色的质感。我是说，你知道有多少人觉得这是个好故事，却坚持要全用白人演员吗？比如他们说女儿或母亲的角色——这其实是很有商业吸引力的设定。

But I think part of why Saving Face works or endures is the textures of the characters. Like, that also I mean, do you know how many people were like, this is a great story. We just gotta cast it all white. Like, we get Well, the daughter, or the person to play the mother. Like, that is a very commercial hook.

但我的观点是，这不仅仅是我固执己见非要启用华裔演员。我确实认为这让电影更出色，因为这才是真实的美国。某种程度上，我觉得我的电影其实非常非常美式。我们忘了几乎所有人往上数几代都是移民，但有些人选择遗忘这点。

But my contention is because it's not just me being stubborn stubborn and and being being like, like, I wanna put someone Chinese in there. I do think it makes it a better movie because I think it this is the real America. You know? Like, in a way, I think my films are actually very, very American. And I think we forget, like, pretty much everyone is an immigrant of some sort, not too far back, but we forget about that, or some of us do.

我的目标是让某个保守的60岁白人男性共情——可能是17岁未出柜的华裔移民女孩，或是她50岁的移民父亲。只要能做到这点，只要你能扩展人类共情的能力，我就赢了。作为电影人，这才是我的首要目标。

And my goal is to get somebody, like, to get, like, some straight conservative 60 year old white guy to relate to maybe a 17 year old potentially closeted Chinese immigrant girl or maybe her 50 year old immigrant father. Right? If I can do that, like, anytime I can anytime you can anytime you can expand the human capacity for empathy, then, like, I've won. Right? Like, that's really as a filmmaker, that's my primary goal.

我希望观众看完《面子》后觉得'这就是我想要的，这些人物让我感同身受'。而《校园情圣》的初衷，是想让中部地区小镇居民产生共鸣。这也是我选择网飞的原因——当时有三个融资方案，其中两个意味着影院上映，这又是另一个话题了。

And for you to be like, God, I watch Saving Face, and that feels like what I want. I I relate these people feel real to me. And with the half of it, what I wanted is somebody in the heartland or maybe from one of these towns. And it's also part of why I went with Netflix because I had three financial possibilities, and two of them would have meant theatrical. But that's a whole other story.

但当时我想，那些小镇居民根本不会去艺术影院看这部电影——可能连艺术影院都没有。但在自家客厅里，他们或许会按下播放键。如果我的目标是改变人心，就希望某个孩子或大人看完后能思考：为什么每个白人小镇总有一户有色人种或移民家庭？

But at the time, I was like, the truth is those people in those towns are not gonna go to a landmark theater to watch this movie. There's probably not even a landmark theater. But in the privacy of their own home They might they might press play. Yeah. And if my goal as a filmmaker is to try and change hearts and minds, then I want some kid to watch this or maybe, like, an adult to watch this and make them think about, for some reason in any tiny white town, there's always one family that is like a person of color family or immigrant.

每个小镇都有这么一户。我希望观众能想想那家人，或是那个被叫'死基佬'的孩子。只要能让观众暂时沉浸其中，爱上这些角色，我就成功了。这或许能解释我为何选择这个背景设定。

Like, every town has like one. And I want them to maybe think about that family or maybe think about that kid everyone's calling a fag. Right? Like, if I can get them for just a moment to, like, go along and start to fall in love with these characters, then I've done my job. And so that's in a way, I don't know if that helps address why I've I've chosen this setting, but that that's actually why.

这其实和特朗普当选产生奇妙的碰撞。我意识到...（还有另一个原因可能稍后讨论）我拍电影不只是为了拍电影。嗯...我从来没有那种...该怎么说...

And and and it was a sort of weird collision of Trump getting elected. My realizing that, you know and there's another piece to this too, which we we might cover or not, but my realizing, like, oh, I'm really not somebody who makes films just to make films. Mhmm. Like, I don't ever have the desire. Like, I I I don't know.

对我来说，创作必须与使命感相连。

It it it for me, it has to be connected to a sense of purpose.

作为酷儿群体一员，我想补充：我不渴望看到把直人故事原样照搬，只是把主角换成亲男人的角色。比如《爱你，西蒙》——我看了所有酷儿题材——这片或许实现了你所说的让直人关心酷儿角色。但对我而言，切入点却是'这个肌肉男主角...'（并非刻意挑剔）

Well, I would I would also add that for me as a queer person, I don't necessarily want I don't necessarily yearn for media where we just remake the straight story, but with a character that looks exactly the same, but now kisses a guy. I I mean, I I, like, instance, I'm not trying to be a dick. Like, I, you know, I watched the movie Love, Simon because I watch, like, all queer things. And that movie to me felt like it might do some of the things that you're talking about in terms of bringing a straight person along for a care for a story where they care about a queer person. For me as a queer person, the entry point of, like, this sort of, like, very ripped guy.

我不确定。我只是觉得，你知道，你在谈论那种弱势感，或者移民经历的特殊性，运用了其中的一些元素。比如，你主角的造型方式，在《半途》中，她是不是...那位演员，她是否...我知道她参演过很多其他作品，但我没看过她的其他作品。她是故意压低声音的吗？

I don't know. I just I I think there is also something about you know, you're talking about the the sort of underdog ness or, you know, the the specificity of using the immigrant experience, using some of that. And, like, the way that your character is styled, that your main character is styled, for instance, in the half of it, she is did you is that actor is she I have I know that she's been in a lot of other stuff. I haven't seen her in other things. She deliberately lowering her voice?

你知不知道

Do you know if

是这样吗？不，那就是她本来的声音。但我认为她并没有刻意。至少在选角时，我坚持要启用全新面孔。

that's true? No. That's how she her voice. But I don't think she wasn't. At least at the point I I was very, very adamant about casting fresh faces.

虽然自从我选了她之后，她现在参演了《南茜·朱尔》。不过当时选角时她还没成名。

Although since I cast her, she's now on Nancy Drew. Right. But she wasn't at the point I cast her.

明白了，我还以为是我听错了。

Got it. I thought I could just miss it.

她声音很美——我显然偏爱低沉嗓音，有人指出我两部作品的女主角都是低音。但那确实是她的本音，我很喜欢。不过现实中她和角色性格截然不同。

She's a beautiful I love low voices, apparently, because someone pointed out to me that both my main character both the women have lower voices. But I I do. She that is her voice, which I love. And but that said, she, in real life, is nothing like that character.

是的，我查过她的

Yes. She's I did look at

她现在很红。我知道，我简直...我超爱她，有次笑着告诉她，每次刷到她的Ins都像个老母亲似的惊呼天哪

her popular. I know. I can't. Like, I adore her, and I laughed and told her, like, I'm always, like her Instagram comes up, and I feel like a mother. I'm like, oh my god.

等等，所以我不像你...为什么她会看那个？停。

Hold on. So I'm not like you know, why does she watch the k? Stop.

就感觉特别想保护她

Like, I feel very protective.

就像，没人看。而且问题是，她像个刚成年的年轻人。我得让她成长，但是

Like, nobody watch. And and the thing is, she's like a young adult. I have to let her grow up, but

在我的...她有自己的

in my She's got her own like

是的。但是，

Yes. But,

你知道，她是

you know, she's

一个可爱的。是的。

a lovely. Yeah.

我觉得有很多选择，比如，说实话我甚至不知道。显然，你内心对那个演员有某种共鸣。她确实声音低沉。我不是说所有酷儿都声音低沉，但她运用声音的方式让人觉得，嗯，这对我来说是个可信的酷儿形象。

I think there's there are lots of choices like well, for instance, I don't even know. Again, obviously, something in you that sparked to that actor. Like, she does have a low voice. And I'm not saying every queer person has a low voice, but but, like, there's something about the way that she's using her voice that feels like, okay. That's a believably queer person to me.

你看她的中分发型、眼镜和叠穿风格，我觉得她

You know, her, like, middle part and her glasses and the layering I think she would

在现实生活中绝对不会那样穿。

never ever wear that in real life.

我认为

I think

她对我设计的造型有点惊恐，但这帮助她进入角色。不过你刚才说的很精辟——那是她本来的声音，但我们确实花了不少时间排练，我要创造环境帮她入戏。她非常聪明机敏，喜欢用'我懂这个笑点'的方式念台词。我一直说，用平淡的方式反而更搞笑，越是正经演绎越有趣。

she was slightly horrified at the way I styled her, but it also helped her get into character. You just said something so astute, though. That is her voice, but we actually had to spend a fair amount of time rehearsing beforehand for me to, like, create the conditions to help her get into character. And she very much she's very smart and quick, and she likes to deliver the line like she's in on the joke. And I kept saying, it's funnier if you're dry about it, and it's funnier when you play everything straight.

比如，别用你觉得好笑的方式去演绎。我保证那样反而会更滑稽。我记得她当时说‘我不确定这样行不行’，但看完成片后她惊呼‘天哪，这比我想象中好笑多了’。不过很大程度在于和她合作时——有时她的表演方式需要不断做减法，后来她管这叫‘低接地气的爱丽丝’，我记得她是这么命名的。

Like, don't don't deliver it like you think this is funny. I promise you it'll be funnier. And I remember her being like, I don't know about this. But then she watched the final movie and was like, oh my god, this is much funnier than I thought it would be. But a lot of it was working with her on her was like her sometimes the way that she would deliver something, it would be a lot of stripping that away so that she started calling it, like, low grounded Alice, I think was the name she gave.

具体名字我忘了，但差不多这意思。你说得对，她并不是刻意压低嗓音，但我会用某种方式让她放慢节奏、更接地气。确实，这样情感也更丰沛。

Like, I forget what it is, but it's like that. So you're right. I I I don't think she's I don't think she's putting on a low voice, but there is a manner that I would sort of slow her down and ground her. Sure. And it it's more emotional.

她所做的情感剥离工作很不容易——她本身有太多耀眼特质，比我酷多了。她那个年纪时就已经...你知道的，她简直不可思议。真希望你能见到她。但要她褪去这些我向来欣赏的特质，明白吗？

Like, the emotional work she did to strip away her like, she's she's got so many wonderful attributes, right, that are are she's infinitely cooler than I am. And when she was that age, she was you know, it's like she's she's amazing. She I hope you get to meet her. But then to have to strip away the things I've always worked for you. Right?

她那些在社会中如鱼得水的特质，要被迫层层剥开露出脆弱面，这对任何人都是挑战。但很幸运，我在她身上看到了可能性——她的本能与角色截然不同，但她的表演有种魔力。

Like, the way she is worked so well in society. And to be forced to slowly peel those away to get to the vulnerability was, I think, it'd be a challenge for anyone. Yeah. And I was so blessed that, you know, because I saw something in her. I'm like, her instincts are not at all these characters' instincts, but she's fascinating to watch.

没错，看她表演就是种享受。所以我们重点是如何让她扎根于角色。说到底，你需要的是聪明且愿意和你共同探索的演员，而她完美做到了。

Sure. She's just fascinating to watch. And so then it just became how do we ground her in this character and, like, you know, go and I I think at the end of the day, what you want is you just want smart actors who are ultimately willing to go there with you. And I think she did just this marvelous job.

是的，他们三位都做到了。

Yes. All three of them did.

确实，他们三人都愿意彼此配合，深入情感层面，展现出不轻易示人的那一面，却为这部电影全然敞开。

Yes. Honestly, all three of them, like, were so willing to, like, work together and go there and go to a deeper emotional place and access the part of themselves that they don't usually show, but that they were then willing to show in this film.

趁现在还有时间，我必须问这个——这部电影主角偏人文气质，但《面子》里她是医生。我知道你也有理工背景...让我确认下，你是斯坦福计算机系毕业的对吗？

So I wanna ask you I'm looking at the time, and I wanna make sure that I don't forget to bring this up. You know, in your I guess in this film, maybe the main character is more on the, like, humanities side of things. But you're in saving face, you know, she's a doctor. And I I know that you also have, like, a STEM background because you are let me let me see if I'm getting this right. You're like you are are you a Stanford grad in computer science?

是的。

I am. A

要是在那个年代...像这种有明确职业路径的专业，斯坦福计算机系毕业生的轨迹基本可以预见。事实上你早期职业生涯也遵循了部分轨迹——毕竟你在微软工作过。

long But time like, if I think about, you know, things that have specific career trajectories, that's one of those that if it's, like, Stanford computer science grad, like, we know what the trajectory is. And actually, in your early career, you followed some of that trajectory because you worked at Microsoft.

是的。我在二十多岁时在西雅图从事软件设计工作，因此整个二十多岁我都在华盛顿州生活。

I did. I I spent my twenties designing software in Seattle, and so I spent my twenties living in Washington state.

没错。从那一刻起，我感觉就像...你知道，我第一次看《拯救帕斯》时读到这个，但我始终没搞明白——等等，这他妈是什么情况？所以这就是你的人生轨迹：斯坦福计算机科学到微软，看起来如此...你知道，如此顺理成章，然后你拍了第一部电影。

Yeah. And then from that moment, I I feel like I've, like you know, I read about this when I first watched saving pace, and I I don't think I ever found out, like, wait. What the fuck? So it's like, that's what your life is. You know, like, this path, it's like Stanford computer science to Microsoft, like, seems so, you know, such a and then and then you make your first movie.

跟我聊聊这两个阶段之间的转折吧。你一开始还提到自己是个即兴表演者——这就是你用这个麦克风的原因。我之前不知道你擅长即兴表演。所以这种艺术天赋是贯穿你整个人生，还是...

So talk to me about this moment between these things. And I you also started by saying that you're you're an improviser. This is why you have this microphone that you're using. I did not know you're an improviser. So, like, did you have this arts thing going your whole life, or was this a

突然转型的？不。我认为我人生中最大的不变因素是极度务实，这可能是移民家庭的特性。我从小就知道将来要赡养父母，从没想过主修文科——虽然我私下一直热爱阅读，这或许是因为频繁搬家时书籍成了我唯一不变的伙伴。

jump between things? No. I I think probably the big constant in my life is I'm extremely practical, and I think that is an immigrant thing. I mean, I I grew up knowing that I was going to to take care of my parents someday. It never occurred to me to major in the liberal arts because I mean, I secretly always read, and that might have been a byproduct of moving so much that books were kind of my one constant.

明白吗？但我从未想过能把阅读当作职业，它只是我私人的精神慰藉。大学时我连写作课都没选过，计算机专业之外只修了些女性研究课程。

Right? But it never occurred to me that it was something I could do as an actual career. It was just going to be, you know, my private sort of solace in a way. And I didn't even take any writing classes in college. I took a lot of, you know, feminist studies classes, like, outside of computer science.

我选择职业时只考虑能否还清贷款——18岁起我就经济独立，绝不依赖他人是我的生活信条。这让我二十多岁时从事着看似体面（后来发现远超预期）的工作：计算机行业突然爆发给了我财务自由。这也解释了为什么艺术界总重复相同故事——毕竟多数人负担不起艺术生涯，除非有家庭/配偶等资助者。

But I I chose a career that I knew I was gonna be able pay off my loans, and I knew I'd be I've been financially self sustaining since I was 18, and it's extremely important to me in my life that I never have to count on anyone else. And I think that's been a guiding principle, and it led to, you know, spending most of my twenties working in a job, which was gonna be a good job, but I don't think I realized how good financially it was going to be because midway through, it exploded. Like, computer science became this big thing, and that gave me more freedom. And and it's part of why I think the arts you know, we we always see the same stories because the reality is most people can't afford to be in the arts. If you don't have a patron of some sort, whether that's your family or, you know, your spouse or if there you don't have somebody, and God bless them.

说真的，我不觉得靠资助有什么可耻。无论如何谋生，世界需要多元声音。但若非当初选择计算机科学这类实用专业还贷攒钱，我绝无可能成为电影人或其他艺术家。

If like, I I'm I don't think there's any shame in that. I'm like, listen. However you're able to sustain yourself, we need voices out there. Right? And for me, I I think had I not gone into computer science, I certainly would never have become or had not gone into something practical to pay off loans and, you know, save a nest egg, I would never have become a filmmaker, any sort of artist.

就像我存够钱成了自己的赞助人。在微软后期（当时不知是末期），我偶然参加周末 workshop，最终在华大扩展课程写了剧本。

But it's kinda like I saved enough money to become my own patron. And and so this is where I get hyper practical. And I basically when I I towards the end of my being at Microsoft, I didn't know it was the end. I I happened to take a weekend workshop. And long story short, I ended up in a class at the University of Washington's extension program, wrote a script.

老师居然说有兴趣买下版权（当时我连这词都不懂），这让我突然意识到：等等，这事能成？他提议去好莱坞卖剧本——虽然很可能拍不成，就算拍也肯定由白人主演。

The teacher actually said, like, look, I'd be interested in optioning this. I didn't know what that meant. But it gave me this moment of like, wait, this could happen? And that's when I kind of looked you know, his point was like, we'll go to Hollywood, we'll sell this. It'll probably never get made, but, you know, it'll and if it gets made, it'll definitely be white.

大概率不会是同性恋题材。我当时想：如果要拍，我必须亲自把控。他直接说：你得辞职，立刻搬去纽约或洛杉矶，学习如何执导——这是唯一机会。

Like, probably not gonna be gay. And I was like, well, god, if this thing could get made, I'm very specific ideas of how I want it made. And he was like, you need to quit your job. You need to move to New York or LA immediately, and you need to learn what it takes to direct this. That's your only shot.

于是我查看了银行余额，做了规划。我想，好吧，我每年靠4万美元过活五年。五年后如果还没拍成这部电影，我就认了，至少我尽力尝试过，而且还能有八个月时间找工作。对吧？

And so I looked at my bank balance, and I planned out. I'm like, alright. I'll live on $40,000 a year for five years. At the end of five years, if I haven't made this film, I'll say, alright, I gave it a good college try, and I'm still gonna have, like, eight months to find a job. Right?

因为在我脑海里盘算的是，如果五年后退出科技行业，重新适应会花很长时间。所以预留八个月找工作似乎合理。这完全是个详细计划——比如需要学新语言的话...

Like, so that was my because in my mind, was like, well, if I'm out of the tech field in five years, this is take me a really long time. So eight months seems about right to find something. Like, it was this whole literally planned out thing where I'm like, if I have to learn a new language

之类的。听起来像是

or that. Sounds like

还用上了电子表格。我就是这种超级计划控。有趣的是——长话短说——我五年的截止期正好撞上《面子》开拍第二周。但你会喜欢这个后续：电影上映时我完全懵了。虽然潜意识里可能有过期待，但说真的——

a spreadsheet was involved. I'm super, super like that. And what's funny is that, like, yeah, again, long story short, I I my five year deadline hit in the second week of my shoot for saving And but here's another thing you'll enjoy in terms of present day. So when Saving Face came out, right, I I was like a deer in headlights because I I mean, somewhere I must have had some belief that this could happen. But also, I mean, come on.

你知道，任何电影都难产，何况这种题材。成功后人们问'下一步呢？'我毫无计划。我只想完成这部作品。经纪人却说'太好了'。

You know, it's like any film is super hard to get made, let alone that film. And when it happened, people were like, what's next? I had no game plan. I I was like, I just wanted to make this film. And my agents were like, great.

当时各种邀约纷至沓来。我只是被动应对市场需求，挑选那些让我感兴趣的项目。但本质上，你知道的，我并没有属于自己的故事构思，比如原本计划创作的另一个故事。那几年我其实相当忙碌，主要接些委托写作和零散工作。后来我母亲病倒了。

There are all these things were coming in. And so I was just sort of responding to the market and only picking things that seemed interesting to me. But they were pretty much, you know, like, I I didn't have my own stories, like another story I was planning to do. And for a few years, I was actually pretty busy, just like writing for hire and doing different things. And then my mom got sick.

于是十年前我放下了一切。那时刚把电视剧提案卖给ABC就发生了这件事。我抛下所有搬到旧金山——就是我现在住的地方。其实当初北上时，我并没打算长住，以为只是去几周，结果变成了几个月。

So I dropped everything ten years ago. I'd actually just sold a TV pitch to ABC, and this happened. I dropped everything, went to moved to San Francisco, which is where I am now. Well, at the time I went up, I I didn't know I was moving. I thought I was going up for, like, a few weeks, and then it became a few months.

几个月后我终于意识到：好吧，看来我是定居在这里了。我必须留在这儿。当时39岁的我心里想着，这样也不错。

And finally, after a number of months, I was like, okay. I I think I've moved here. Like, I just need to be here. And in my head, I thought, well, that's alright. Like, was 39 at the time.

我这样规划人生：二十多岁钻研计算机科学，三十多岁折腾疯狂的电影事业，四十多岁就该回归家庭。我准备专心照顾家人，说实话对这种生活非常满足。

And I thought, well, my twenties were about computer science. My thirties were about doing this crazy ass film thing. My forties will be about my family. And I'm just gonna, like, take care of my family. And I honestly was very satisfied with my life.

这十年来我与母亲的关系让我心怀感激。坦白说自从16岁后我们就没同住过，虽然现在也没住一起，但能经常见面确实改变了很多。我曾真心认为自己已经退出行业了，直到六年前即兴表演的机会突然出现。

You know, I I thank God these ten years have been amazing for me in terms of, like, my connection with my mom. I hadn't honestly lived in the same place as her since I was 16. So having and we don't live together anymore, but the fact that, you know, she's nearby and I see her all the time has made a huge difference. And I really thought I I'm not you know, I'm I'm out of the industry and that's it. The improv came up about maybe six years ago.

说实话，我我我短暂地想过也许该重新尝试写作。我完全写不出来，然后我想，好吧。我我显然是在害怕失败。我干脆选件注定会失败的事，公开地失败，这样就能对失败免疫。结果完全没用，因为我当真去做了。

It was just honestly, I I I briefly thought maybe I should try writing again. I couldn't write at all, and I thought, alright. I'm I'm just gonna I'm clearly afraid of failure. I'm just gonna take something where I'm guaranteed to fail, and I'm gonna fail publicly, and this will anure me to failure. And it totally didn't work because I took it.

我根本没写任何东西。反而爱上了即兴表演。我如此沉迷即兴表演，全身心投入其中。要特别感谢旧金山的Endgame即兴剧团。我热爱它到后来甚至开始教即兴表演，我觉得自己当老师比当演员更出色。

I didn't write at all. I just fell in love with improv. And I fell so in love with improv, I, like, threw myself into it. Like, shout out to Endgame's improv in San Francisco. And I loved it so much, and actually, even more, I loved eventually, I started teaching improv, and I I think I'm actually a better teacher than I am an improviser.

没有什么比看到学生们呈现精彩演出更让我快乐了，胜过我自己演得好。回想起来，当即兴表演老师这段经历对我后来做导演大有裨益。两者确有相似之处。但最终我想，好吧，这就是我的人生了。

Like, nothing gives me greater joy than watching my students have a good show, like, more than me having a good show. And honestly, when I think back on it, I think being an improv teacher helps me a great deal as a director. You know, like, there are some similarities. But ultimately, I was like, okay. Great.

大约三年前，我完全偶然地被拉回这个行业。其实是因为当时经历了分手，而母亲的身体状况已稳定了约一年。在那个时刻，长期恋情结束，我走在街上突然想到一个问题：

This is my life. About three years ago, I got pulled back in to the industry totally at random. Well, actually, what happened is I had a breakup, and my mom's health had stabilized for, like, the previous, like, year. And I just had this moment where, like, my long term relationship broken up. I was walking down the street, and I literally had this moment where I was like, here's a question.

你相信上帝或某种更宏大的宇宙意志吗？

Do you believe in God or some sort of larger universe?

你电影里出现过这个问题，我当时暂停思考过。我相信存在更高力量，虽然不确定这对他人是否有意义。集体的群体智慧，或许这种互联思想的网络可以视为上帝？这是我的答案。

This question is in your film, and I paused it and thought. I believe that there is a higher power. I don't know that that for me makes any sense beyond other people. The collective wisdom of the group, which I guess as a, you know, blanket of interconnected thoughts does work as God? That's my answer.

你呢？

What about you?

很棒的答案。其实我花大量时间思考这个，不知为何。我没有任何宗教背景，但会祷告（这有点怪）。最终得出的结论是：我不知道。不确定是否存在更高宇宙或上帝，但我选择相信——因为当我相信宇宙存在某种秩序时，我会成为更好的自己。

That's a great answer. So I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about it, actually. I'm not sure why, But what I've come to is so I I never grew up with any religious basis. I do pray, which is kind of weird, but I I do sort of spend time thinking, you know, like I I guess what I come to is that I don't I don't know. I don't know if there's a higher universe or a God, but I chose to I choose to believe because I prefer the person I am when I believe there's some sort of order to the universe.

否则一切都会陷入混沌对吧？甚至上帝是否存在对我都不重要。就算有人确凿证明上帝不存在，我仍会说：好吧，但我还是要相信。我需要与更宏大的事物联结，无论是更崇高的人性。

And so it's this moment of like because otherwise, everything's chaos. Right? And I don't know that it even matters to me if God exists or not. I think if someone told me conclusively God didn't exist, I would still say, Okay, but I'm just going to. Like, for me, there's a need to be connected to something bigger, whether it's a greater humanity.

当我据此选择行动时，生活会更好。那一刻我至今记得——走在瓦伦西亚街上思考着：若真如此，宇宙绝不可能认为我人生的最大意义只是当好女儿或女友。我当然想做好这些角色，但以我的资源和在这个国家的幸运，总该有其他值得追求的事。就在那时，莫名地，我又开始写作了。

And it's just better for me when I choose my actions accordingly. And in that moment, I just I still remember I was walking down Valencia, I'm thinking about this, and I'm like, well, if this is true, I cannot imagine the universe thinks that my greatest purpose in life is to be someone's good daughter or someone's good girlfriend, and that's it. Like, I really wanna be those things, and I think those things are important. But with the resources I have and being as lucky as I am living in this country, surely there's something else that I could be applying myself toward. And in that moment, for whatever weird reasons, I started writing again.

就像，灵感从我体内倾泻而出。而这勾勒出了《半部戏》的雏形。此时我开始相信或许存在更大的宇宙意志——因为就在第一个月，我意外收到一位一直想合作的高管邮件，她问'你还在写作吗？'而那时我连经纪人都没有。

Like, was pouring out of me. And that's outline what was gonna become the half of it. And this is where I do think maybe there's a larger universe. Because in that first month, I randomly get an email from an exec who's always wanted to work together, who's like, are you still writing? And I was like, I don't even have agents at this point.

我觉得这太诡异了，明明刚开始动笔。结果她说'我刚刚入职梦工厂，手头有个项目总觉得适合你'。

I'm like, that is super weird. I literally just started writing. She's like, well, I just started this job at DreamWorks. I I have a project. I keep thinking you'd be right for it.

愿意向我老板提案吗？后来我拿下了这个项目。创作过程很愉快，他们其实还有三个其他项目。但我心想：这可是我人生第二部电影剧本啊。

Will you pitch my boss? And I ended up getting that gig. I wrote it, had a super fun time. They sort of came up with, like, they had, like, three other projects. And I was like, you know, I've never written my second film.

现在终于开始写作了——虽然可能毫无结果——但我真心想要尝试...我从没为自己执导写过剧本，《面子》除外，其他都是给别人写的。说到这里要坦白件不太光彩的事：当时特朗普刚当选，我每天坐在办公室...

And now that I'm finally writing, I mean, it may go nowhere, but I actually really want a shot at you know, I just want a shot at like, I've never written something for myself to direct Sense Saving Face. Everything else is for someone else. And that's when I well, this part of the story doesn't reflect that well on me. But basically what happens is I so Trump's just been elected. I'm sitting in my office every day.

六个月后他们再次联系我：'进度如何？我们又有新项目了'。而我这半年根本只字未写。

Six months go by. They actually contacted me again to be like, okay, great. Are you done with your spec? We have another project. And I had done no writing whatsoever.

整整六个月我写了删、删了写，觉得自己是全世界最差劲的作家，不停刷特朗普新闻。最后醒悟：工作时我才最快乐，不如接这个活吧，反正自己也写不出来。但拖延期间朋友点醒我：'爱丽丝，不写完那个剧本你永远不会开心，哪怕它很烂'。内心深处我知道她是对的。

I'd spent all six months, like, maybe writing a line, deleting it, writing it, deleting it, thinking I was the world's worst writer, googling endlessly about Trump. And I I just was like, god, I'm happiest when I'm working. I should just freaking take this job because, you know, obviously, I'm not writing on my own. But then it was sort of dragging my heels, and I always remember this because a friend of mine was like, you know, Alice, I just think you're not gonna be happy until you write that script, even if it sucks. And I I think on some deep level, I knew this friend was right, so I ended up saying to these execs, I'm so sorry.

我向高管们致歉：'哪有资格推付费工作？但实话是个人剧本毫无进展，我必须先完成它'。他们非常体谅——原来他们老板是《面子》粉丝，还特意嘱咐'别打扰她写作'。

Like, who am I to be turning down paying work? But the truth is I've gotten nowhere on my spec, and I I need to get this written. And they were so gracious. They were like, no worries, you know, like and actually, it turned out their boss was a big saving face fan. She's like, when we told her you're working in her second movie, she was like, nobody bug her.

这本是好事，但我压力更大了：既然公开表态暂停接活，至少得把剧本写完。哪怕很烂，至少解脱了能接其他工作。

Which is like this great thing. But then I was like, okay, I've now told people, like, this is so embarrassing. I better get this thing written because I'm apparently putting my life on hold. If it sucks, at least it's out of me and I can take something else. So this is the thing.

我从未（敲木头）错过外部截止日，但对自己定的内部期限毫无约束力——能拖延多年。于是我给NRA开了张千元支票交给消防员朋友CJ保管，她言出必行绝对会寄出。我给自己五周期限：

I've never, so far, knock on wood, missed an externally placed deadline. But apparently, I am crap at my own internal deadlines. Like, they will just go on for years and years, and I won't fulfill them. So what I did is I wrote a check for a thousand dollars to the NRA, and I gave it to my friend CJ, who's a Butch firefighter, who's the only one of my friends who, because, like, if she gives her word, she'll do something, she's the only one of my friends who absolutely would send that check-in. And I basically was like, alright, I'm gonna give myself five weeks.

8月8日前必须完成剧本，两位读者已就位。可以是史上最烂初稿，但必须完成。否则CJ就会寄出支票。后来所有人都在短信轰炸我：'你最好别成为NRA赞助人'——那五周压力爆表。

This script has to be done on August 8. These two people will read it. It could be the crappiest first draft ever, but it has to be done. If it is not done, you are sending that check-in. And then I told everybody, like, and it was the most I stressful five weeks of my got texted by everybody back, You better not become a donor for the NRA.

关键在于我需要找到一个自己无法承受的可怕后果。就这样我完成了初稿。之后我把它搁置一旁，回头又花了五个月反复打磨。到了第二稿，写作小组都说很棒，可以投出去了。

And it was basically the point is I needed to find a consequence so horrible I couldn't live with myself. And that's how I got the first draft written. And then, yeah, I put it aside, and then I came back, spent five months, like, massaging it. And then that second draft, like, that's well, the crazy thing is, like, my writing group was like, it's great. Send it out.

我当时根本不认识什么人，但稿子还是传开了。不到三个月就收到三份投资意向，最终拍摄用的就是那版剧本。现在回想起来特别有趣，我每天都会看着它。

And I'm like, I don't I don't know anyone. But somehow people slipped it around. Within, like, three months, I had three financing offers, and then that draft is the one we shot. Like, we were it actually, now that it's so funny. I look at it every day.

我甚至可以把支票实物拿给你看。没错。

I literally can show you the check. Yes.

天啊，真的在这里。

There it is. Oh my god.

我把某些信息涂掉了，因为说不定哪天会拍照发到网上——这可是我的写作秘诀。找一个让你寝食难安的后果，然后必须找人见证。别光说'我保证'，就像我永远不可能给全国步枪协会寄支票那样。

Black out something because I was like, at some point, I might, like, take a photo and post it to be because it's like my writing advice to people. You know? I'm like, literally find a consequence that's so horrible. And then for accountability, you gotta tell somebody. Like, don't be like, oh, I'm because here's already I will never send an r a check to the NRA.

这种事绝不会发生。但你要找个真会这么做的人盯着你，然后选定那个你最无法承受的后果去执行。

That will never happen. But you need to find someone you know will. And then whatever it is that you can't live with yourself, that's the thing you gotta do.

真想和你聊上一整天。我们这期播录已经一小时了，我通常控制在60分钟。不想占用你太多时间...这样吧，请分享一个让你成为今日之你的酷儿榜样——可以是人、地方或事物。

I could talk to you for the rest of my day. It is one hour into our thing, and I into our thing, into this podcast, and I always keep it to an hour. So I wanna be respectful of your time, and I let's see. What do I well, I'm gonna ask you to shout out a queer o, which is a person, place, or thing that made you feel that you could be who you are today. So like a queer hero.

你可以思考几秒，开场时我没提前告知这个环节。聊得太投入都忘了，不知道'chuffed'这个词用得对不对...

I could give you a second to think about it. I didn't warn you about this at the beginning. I usually warn people, but I got very chuffed. I don't know. Is that a word that would appropriately look.

总之这次对话太精彩了。我最大的收获是：你在人生和职业转折点时，总是以开放心态迎接未知路径。这种态度正是我当下需要的——毕竟我现在主要靠单口喜剧谋生。

Here's what I will say. It's been fantastic to speak with you. One thing that I'm just gonna take from this conversation that I really needed to hear right now in my life is that it does seem that you've sort of greeted more right turns than than a lot of people have in their personal life and career with the openness to try to go down that path. And that's something that I really I'm taking from this conversation that's helpful for me today. You know, I I make most of my living doing stand up.

而这行现在完全停摆了。我刚出了本回忆录

That's not a job right now. I released a memoir

并非如此。你太出色了，以至于我直接以为你是靠脱口秀谋生的。

It isn't. You're so good that I just assume that you make a living from being a stand up.

不。我是说，因为人们无法聚集。脱口秀这个概念，就像，根本不算一份工作。懂吗？而且我上周刚发行了第一本书，但现在没有书店开门。

No. I mean, it is it is it's I just mean because people can't gather. Like, the concept of stand up, like, just, like, not a job. You know? And I released my first book last week, but there's no bookstores that are open.

这对我来说是个必须臣服于远大于自身力量的时刻。有时我会陷入一种思维定式，觉得必须找到解决方案。当面对超越自我的困境时，我总想着要设法闯过去。而从你的话里，我领悟到或许并非总是如此——并非每件事都需要规划出通关路径。

Like, it just is it's this moment of, for me, having to, like, really surrender to things that are much larger than me. And sometimes, I can get into a zone in my own mind where I think that I have to figure it out. Like, when things are bigger than me, I'm like, I gotta figure out how to navigate this. And I think something that I'm hearing and what you're saying is is just that moment of, like, it maybe isn't always that. It's not always about figuring out the path through the thing.

关键在于：变故已然发生。你早已身处其中，不必苛求完美掌控每个瞬间。我不得不反复提醒自己这点——就像刚才提到的脱口秀和出书的事。当下我们许多人经历的这些，都是前所未有的体验。

The thing is happening. You're already in the thing. You don't need to, you know, perfectly manage every moment of this. And I'm having to remind myself of that constantly because I just mentioned the stand up thing and the and the book thing. It's like the things that are happening for so many of us right now, it's these are I've never gone through this before.

面对全新体验时，我常会不知所措，这时就要提醒自己：你早已身处其中。你已经在应对了。过好今天就行。专注当下，没关系的。

And sometimes when it's a new experience, I can feel like, I don't know how to do this, and it's like I have to remind myself, you're already in it. Like, you're already doing the thing. Do do the day. Just do this day. It's okay.

深呼吸，把今天过好。所以这次关于应对意外转折的对话真的很有帮助。听起来你人生中经历过不少这样的转折。

Just breathe in and out and do this day. So this was a very helpful conversation in terms of thinking about navigating unforeseen right turns. Sounds like you've had a lot of them in your life.

是的。我特别认同你的话。我需要这些提醒。我一直认为，无论人们称之为无聊还是别的什么，那种不适感本质上是源于缺乏结构。嗯。

Yes. I I just really love what you said. I I I want to hear because I need those reminders too. And and what you know, I've always felt like the discomfort of whether someone wants to call it boredom or however it manifests for them, but basically it's lack of structure. Mhmm.

我认为艺术正诞生于此。一旦我们过于安逸，就只能重复过去的创作。对吧？我们擅长那些，可以熟练表演。

I think that's where art lives. Think once we get too comfortable with it, then we're just churning out art from the past. Right? Like, we're good at it. We can perform it.

但就像我今天不会再去拍《面子》。虽然很高兴它至今仍有影响力。但那已是十五年前的故事了。

But, like, I would not make saving face today. Like, I'm glad that endures today. Right. But that is not my story today. That was my story fifteen years ago.

懂吗？我现在投入创作的是当下触动我的事物。你需要让周遭安静下来才能听见内心声音，这过程很不舒服。但像你这样有才华的艺术家——或者说对任何人而言——保持适度不适很重要，否则只会不断复制过去的作品。

You know? Like, the things I'm working on next are things that emotionally appeal to me now. And I think that you want you you kinda need things to quiet down to be able to hear yourself think, and it's very uncomfortable. But I think for someone talented like yourself who's an artist or for anyone out there, you you wanna be kind of uncomfortable, or you're just gonna be churning out something that you've already done.

哦，我的天

Oh my And

为什么不直接就这样呢。

why not just yeah.

太棒了。完美。乔丹，如果你能把那段剪出来，植入我的大脑作为持续不断的念头，那就太神奇了。就是关于不适感确实是关键的那部分。好的。

Great. Fantastic. Jordan, if you could just clip that part out and insert it into my brain as a constant thought, that would be amazing. Just the part out about how the discomfort is really really the key. Okay.

很好。是的。但你

Great. Yes. But you

也可以随时联系我，我会提醒你。好的。太棒了。随时找你中国的酷儿中国阿姨聊聊。阿姨会告诉你。

can also reach out anytime, and I'll just remind you. Okay. Great. Feel free to reach out to your Chinese your queer Chinese auntie. Auntie will tell you.

不过，嗯，

But Well,

所以但他们哦。我这个quiero（西班牙语：我想要），然后我想我们得，得，比如，剪掉这部分，因为我们可以直接

so but They oh. Me this quiero, and then I think we have to we have to, like, cut this because we could just

是的。

Yes.

那我们就直接结束播客吧。我们可以像朋友一样打电话。但是。是的。不过。万岁。好的。

Then we'll just we'll just end the podcast. We can just call each other on the phone like friends. But Yes. But Hooray. Okay.

这档播客的真正目标就是把我当成朋友来打电话。我当时想，播客就像是，最终目标是建立友谊。但是好吧。所以从某个角度来说这有点尴尬，我希望我能成为那种我们都认识的超级名人，但我觉得这可能更反映真实的我——我想到的人甚至可能不是同性恋，因为她结过婚，但奇怪的是我的英语老师，吉恩·加泽尔肖普夫人，她是我电影《校园情圣》中唯一用真名的角色G女士。我提到她是因为她在让我意识到我可以成为任何人这方面对我影响深远。

That was really the goal of this podcast, is to call me our friends. I was like, the podcast was just like the like, end goal is the friendship. But the okay. So this is a little bit embarrassing from the standpoint of I I wish I could be like and this amazing celebrity that we all know, but I think this might be indicative of me, which is that the person that comes to mind is not even, like, her her sexuality probably isn't gay because she was married, but weirdly was my English teacher, missus Jean Gazelshop, who is the only in my film, The Half of It, the only character whose name is from real life is missus G. And and I mentioned her because she was formative for me in terms of making me realize I could be whomever.

虽然把文科和酷儿身份相提并论可能显得奇怪，但我并非要强行建立这种联系。但她确实相信我不该止步于计算机科学家这个身份。后来我去拜访她时，她亲口这么对我说。有次我告诉她我主修计算机科学，她竟然说'真可惜'。知道吗？她还硬让我看了《哈洛与慕德》这部电影。

Like, know it seems weird to liken liberal arts and being queer, but I I it's not that I'm trying to say that, but she just believed that I could be more than a computer scientist. And she said as much to me when I I go back to visit her. And at one point, I told her I majored in computer science, and she was like, well, that's a shame. And you know? But she also, like, she she made me watch Harold and Maude.

她用各种方式拓展我的视野。我提起她，既是为了向她致敬，更是要向所有教师致敬——因为你们就是现实中的酷儿先锋，无论你们是否自认如此。你们对孩子产生的影响，真的非同凡响。对我来说，这段经历极大塑造了今天的我。不知道...

Like, she did all sorts of things to expand. Me and I and I bring her up, yes, to give her a shout out to her, but really to give a shout out to any teachers out there because the truth of the matter is you guys I mean, you're like the queeros, whether you identify as queer or not, because the impact you have on, you know, on kids, like, it's it's phenomenal. And I I would say that for me, that was hugely formative in who I became today. I don't know if

这完全解答了问题。刚才我和女友凯蒂看完电影吃午饭时，我们就在聊这个。席间我提到了维特老师——我高中时那个超级古怪的英语老师，她真是怪得出奇。

that answers question. That answer so much, and that was so clear in the film. So I watched it with my girlfriend Katie, and then we just had lunch, and then then this was the conversation right after. And over lunch, I was talking to her about missus Weeter, who was my high school English teacher who was so strange. She was the strangest.

她古怪极了，总穿70年代风格的衣服。但我超爱她的课。在那所压抑的天主教高中里，她的人文课是难得的绿洲。现在我洗手池上方还挂着E.E.卡明斯的诗框——

She was so strange, and wore, like, only clothes from the seventies, and she was so strange. And I loved her class so much. I had I had this, like, very incredible humanities education at this super Catholic high school that in other ways was very damaging and and difficult for me. But, like, her English class, I have an E. E.

她要求每节课先做学校规定的祷告，然后必须用黑胶唱片机播放奶油乐队的《你生命的阳光》（那时根本没人用唱片机了），接着全班要起立齐诵卡明斯的诗。她是唯一把信仰和艺术等同的人。那段课前仪式对我意义重大。

Cummings poem that's, like, framed over my sink, and she used to make us like, we had to start every class with prayer at my high school, you know, like the our father or the hail Mary. And then she would require that in her class that then after that, we listened to sunshine of your life by Cream on a, like, turntable, which nobody had at this time. And then from there, we all had to stand and recite together this EE Cummings poem. And it was just this she was, like, the only person that put, you know, faith in the same category with art. Like, it really mattered to me that she played this song.

后来我在伯灵顿演出时发现了这首诗的装裱版，立刻买下。它提醒我：祈祷可以有很多形式。比如埃里克·克莱普顿弹吉他时——

We played class started that way. And then I I found this poem framed when I was doing a show in Burlington, Vermont, and I, like, bought it immediately. And I because it just reminds me that that a lot of different things are prayer. You know? Like, Eric Clapton might be playing the guitar.

那也可以是祈祷。这些影响真的深远。所以听到你致敬老师时特别共鸣——一小时前吃饭时我也在怀念那些老师，他们在我因循守旧获得嘉奖时（比如当橄榄球队长女友时），却看见了我离经叛道的价值。最终我选择那个怪咖英语老师当导师，因为我也觉得自己是个怪人。

That could also be prayer, and that stuff is really impactful. So I I love that you shouted at your teacher because that's what I was just doing an hour ago while I ate some food was thinking about teachers who seemed to see that I had something valuable that was outside the box even at a time where I was being rewarded mostly for the ways that I was normative. You know? Mostly being rewarded as, like, the girlfriend of the captain of the football team, but, like, my weirdo English teacher. That's who I chose to be my mentor, you know, because I felt like a weirdo too.

所以致敬所有怪咖老师。

So rock on.

太棒了。真的...非常感谢分享。

Yeah. No. I I I love that. No. Thank you so much.

我...真的非常感激。

I I'm really so grateful.

真是一场精彩的对话。

Was a awesome conversation.

是啊。我我而且你对我的电影表达得比我本人还清晰。所以我觉得我需要你教我如何描述它们，我会，你知道的，我会照着做。没问题。

Yeah. I I and and also you are so much more articulate about my films than I am. So I I feel like I feel like you need to tell me how to express myself about them, and I will, you know, I will I will follow suit. No problem.

发封邮件给我就行。我会快速写篇新闻稿，完美。我们联手一定能大获成功。爱丽丝，非常感谢你的时间。恭喜新片上映。

Just shoot me an email. I'll write a quick press release, and Perfect. And we'll team up for ultimate success. Alice, thank you so much for your time. Congratulations on the new film.

已经上线了。是5月1日在Netflix对吗？5月1日。

It is available. Was it is it May 1 on Netflix? May 1.

对，5月1日。本来我们计划——这本来挺棒的。Netflix几个月前给了我个惊喜，他们打算为这部电影安排院线放映，这对我们这种没有知名演员的小成本电影几乎从没发生过。但结果很顺利，我特别激动能让亲友们在影院观看。

Yeah. May 1, we were gonna have, which was kind of great. Netflix surprised me a few months ago. They were gonna do a theatrical release for the film, which never happens for films like ours that have, like, no known stars yet, but they're like, it turned out well. We're gonna which I got super excited have my friends and family in a theater.

但随着时间推移，我又变得特别庆幸他们不用去影院了。对吧。因为疫...你知道，因为疫情。所以...总之有部电影能上映我已经很感恩了。希望观众会喜欢。

And then as the weeks went on, I became super excited to have them not in a theater Right. Right. Because of a pan you know, because of the pandemic. So it it's you know, I I feel grateful that there's a film at all to show. I hope people like it.

嗯是的。

And yeah.

我觉得这会给当下的人们带来很大慰藉。如果后续有放映安排，记得告诉我。我可以随时跑趟旧金山，也可能在洛杉矶这边。你可以随时南下来看。

I think it'll be a big comfort to folks right now. And if there is a screening down the line, let me know when it is. I can take a quick pop up to San Francisco. Maybe it'll be here in LA. You could take a quick pop down.

祝你今天愉快，非常感谢。彼此彼此。

But have a great rest of your day, thank you so much. Likewise.

也谢谢你。

And thank you.