塔拉·斯沃特博士谈直觉：信任你“直觉”的神经科学

唱歌、念诵、打鼓、哼鸣，所有这些类似的活动都能增强大脑的连通性，让你更容易接触到自己的直觉。

Singing, chanting, drumming, humming, all of those sorts of things can also increase connectivity in your brain that gives you more access to your intuition.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是罗茜。

It's Rosie here.

欢迎回到Radio Headspace。

Welcome back to Radio Headspace.

我有个问题想问你们。

I have a question for you.

你相信自己的直觉吗？

Do you trust your gut?

或者更确切地说，你应该相信自己的直觉吗？

Or perhaps the better question is, should you trust your gut?

根据塔拉·斯沃特博士的说法，答案是肯定的。

Well, according to doctor Tara Swart, the answer is yes.

塔拉是神经科学家，麻省理工学院的高级讲师，也是《源头：宇宙的秘密，大脑的科学》一书的作者。

Tara is a neuroscientist, senior lecturer at MIT, and the author of the source, the secrets of the universe, the science of the brain.

今天，我们将深入探讨直觉背后的科学，它从何而来，如何与我们的情感和过去经历相连，以及为什么创造力能增强我们的内在智慧。

Today, we'll dive into the science behind intuition, where it comes from, how it connects to our emotions and past experiences, and why creativity can sharpen our inner wisdom.

我真心希望你喜欢这次对话。

I really hope you enjoy this conversation.

我真的很兴奋。

I'm really excited.

非常感谢你今天加入我们。

Thank you so much for joining us today.

我们请到了塔拉·斯瓦特博士。

We have doctor Tara Swart.

你希望我们怎么称呼你？

How would you like to be addressed?

直接叫我塔拉就好。

You can just call me Tara.

我总觉得，人们好不容易拿到博士学位，难道你不想一直用这个头衔吗？

I almost feel like when people go through the process of getting that doctorate degree that I feel like don't you just want to use it all the time?

但那样的话，罗西，你就得叫我医生了。

But then Rosie, you'd have to call me Doctor.

医生。

Doctor.

塔拉医生，因为我既有医学博士又有哲学博士。

Tara because I've got an MD and a PhD.

所以我觉得还是算了。

So I think not.

医生。

Doctor.

博士。

Doc.

我喜欢这个。

I mean, I love it.

我太喜欢了。

I mean, I love it.

我觉得这很棒。

I think it's great.

我……

I...

就像我刚才说的，我完全是你的粉丝，因为我非常喜欢你的作品。

As I said, earlier, I'm I'm totally fan girling because I I love your work.

我很喜欢你说的那些内容。

I I love what you talk about.

那本书出版的时候，我真的特别喜欢。

I really loved the source when it came out.

那是你的书，名字叫《源头》，讲的是宇宙的秘密和大脑的科学。

That was, your book, and it's it's called the source, the secrets of the universe, the science of the brain.

我想先稍微往回说一点，如果你不介意的话，能不能分享一下你眼中直觉的定义，以及它和创造力之间的关系？

I think first, just to to take it back a little bit, if you wouldn't mind sharing, the sort of definition of intuition from the way that you see it and its relation to creativity.

所以我在《之源》里描述了六种思维方式，分别是逻辑、情感、直觉、身体、动机和创造。

So I describe six ways of thinking in the source, which are logical, emotional, intuitive, physical, motivational and creative.

我有点觉得直觉介于逻辑和情感之间，因为我们从小通过正规学习或者直接教导学了很多东西。

And I kind of say that intuition lies between logic and emotion because we learn a lot of things from formal learning or direct instruction as children.

但在一生中，我们也积累了很多人生经验，但我们不可能记住生活中经历的一切。

But throughout life, we also pick up a lot of life lessons, but we can't remember everything that we've experienced in our life.

所以这些经验就被存储为模式识别，就像我提到创造力时说的，变成智慧和判断，逐渐成为一种本能反应。

So this gets stored as kind of pattern recognition, like I said about creativity, as wisdom and judgment that becomes a bit more reflex.

这就是为什么它有时也被称为“直觉”，因为它是本能性的。

And that's why it's sometimes also called gut instinct as in it's instinctual.

你未必能理性解释为什么做出某个决定，但你只是觉得它是对的。

You can't necessarily rationalize why you make a certain decision, but you just feel that it's right.

之所以叫“直觉”，是因为我们的工作记忆保持在脑前部，即前额叶皮层和额叶皮层。

And the reason that it's gut instinct is that we keep our working memory sort of front of mind, prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex in the brain.

而我们的直觉则位于大脑更深处，因为它是长期以来形成的模式、习惯和行为。

And then our intuition is deeper in the brain because it's patterns and habits and behaviors that have been there for a long time.

再往深处，还有我们积累的人生经验，那些我们其实不会主动去回忆的东西，它们储存在脊髓更深处，一路延伸到肠道里的神经元。

And then deeper still the life lessons that we've picked up that we don't actually actively recall that stored deeper in the spinal cord and all the way down to the gut neurons.

所以这就是为什么当你说“我就是凭直觉感觉到的”，这可能是字面意思，不只是比喻。

So that's why when you say like, I just felt it in my gut, that could be a literal saying not just a metaphorical one.

听别人这么说也特别有意思，因为就我的经验来看，每当我经历过那种时刻，比如“哦，那只是直觉”或者“那是凭直觉做的决定，就是感觉对”，

And it's so interesting too to hear people say it because in my experience, whenever I've had those moments where I've said, oh, it was just a gut feeling or it was a gut decision that just felt right.

我觉得我们很多人都可能压抑这些感受。

I feel like so many of us can can stifle those feelings down.

在现代社会，我们被外部信息轰炸，社交媒体、新闻周期，不断有大量信息涌向我们，我觉得有时候那种深层的直觉可能会被抑制。

In our modern day society, we're so bombarded with external information, social media, news cycles, we're constantly being fed so much information that I feel like sometimes that listening, deep intuitive sense can get a little stifled.

你觉得是这样吗？

Do you find that that's true?

我有好多话想跟你聊。

There's so many things I want to talk to you about.

我觉得自己真的很幸运，你带我走进了我现在特别感兴趣的领域。

I'm like, I feel so blessed that you are leading me down a rabbit hole of the things that I'm super interested in right now.

所以我现在先提两个大主题，免得一会儿忘了聊第二个。

So two major topics which I'll say now so we don't forget to get back to the second one.

第一个是创造力如何影响直觉。

So how creativity feeds into intuition.

第二个呢，是我下一本书正在研究的东西，是超越直觉的领域。

And then secondly, something that I'm researching now for my next book is about beyond intuition.

你刚才描述的，那种强烈的‘就是知道’的感觉，如果它出现在脑海里，那就是‘认知直觉’（claircognizance）。

And so what you described as a like a strong sense of just knowing is if it's in your mind, then it's claircognizance.

如果是身体上的感觉，那就是‘感知直觉’（clairsentience）。还有‘听觉直觉’（clairaudience）和‘视觉直觉’（clairvoyance），就是说你听到或看到一些东西，这些不可能基于你的生活经验和理性思考而得知。

And if it's a felt sense in your body, then it's clairsentience and their extrapolations of clairaudience and clairvoyance, which means that you hear things or you see things that you couldn't possibly know based on life experience and irrational thinking.

不过，我还喜欢一个研究领域，叫‘神经美学’，它研究美和创造力对健康、心理健康以及寿命的影响。

But there's another field of study I love called neuro aesthetics which is about the effect of beauty and creativity on your health, your mental health and your longevity.

无论是创造还是欣赏艺术活动。

So both making and beholding creative activities.

比如画画或看画，唱歌或听音乐，等等。

So drawing a picture or looking at art, singing or going to listen to music, etcetera.

所以，从事创造性活动也能帮你更好地连接自己的直觉。

And so creative activities also help you tap into your intuition.

你可以想想那些能锻炼直觉的方法，我相信听众们也会很感兴趣。我一直建议：通过写日记来梳理思路，在做决定时观察自己是听从直觉还是逻辑。如果两者冲突，你可以先按逻辑行事，然后记录这个决定的结果如何；接着试着多承担一些风险，更多地跟随直觉而非纯逻辑去做选择。

So if you think about the sort of spectrum of things that you can do to hone your intuition, which I'm sure is something that will be of interest to listeners, then I've always said since the source that journaling, how you make your decisions and whether you go with your gut or whether you go with, if your logic seems to conflict with that, whether you go with logic instead and then kind of tracking how that decision pans out and starting to take some more risks with going with the intuitive version rather than the logical version.

当然，如果直觉和逻辑是一致的，那就最完美了。

Obviously, if they align, that's perfect.

但如果它们不一致，你就得开始训练自己信任直觉。可以先在低风险的环境里试试跟着直觉走，看看会发生什么。

But if they don't, then start teaching yourself to trust your gut by seeing what happens in a low risk environment at first, if you go with your intuition.

不过最后补充一点，唱歌、吟唱、打鼓、哼鸣这些活动都能增强大脑的连接性，让你更活跃，也更容易触达直觉。

But just to finish that off, singing, chanting, drumming, humming, all of those sorts of things can also increase connectivity in your brain that gives you more activity, more access to your intuition.

所以听起来我们需要为创造力或直觉的出现留出空间。

So it sounds like we need to create the space for the creativity or for the intuition to arise.

没错，无论是创造力还是其他神经美学活动，比如身处大自然，都能帮你创造这种空间。因为当你完全陷入逻辑思维，或者处于非心流状态、思维非黑即白且压力很大时，你的大脑会更多处于控制模式，也就是任务导向模式。

And creativity or other neuro aesthetic activities like being in nature can definitely create that space because when you're fully in logic or you're kind of like not in flow and you're very kind of black and white thinking basically under stress, then your brain operates more from the control mode, which is the task focused mode.

但当你身处大自然，或者只是散散步让思绪漫游，又或是从事任何创造性活动，甚至只是欣赏艺术，比如看一场舞蹈表演时，你的大脑就会处于光谱的另一端，也就是所谓的默认模式。

But when you're in nature or you're just going for a walk and letting your mind wander or you're doing any creative activity or even just experiencing creativity like watching a dance show or something, then your brain is at the opposite end of the spectrum which is called default mode.

而正是在那种状态下，你才能接触到那些在你大脑为了生存而将资源保持在低功耗模式时被关闭的想法。

And that's where you can get access to ideas that are shut down when your brain is like keeping its resources in low power mode just to help you survive.

这完全说得通。

That totally makes sense.

有没有可能有些人不知道如何识别直觉？

Is there ever a case where people might not know how to identify intuition?

也许他们只是不习惯。

It's just like maybe they're just not used to it.

他们可能不知道该怎么识别它。

They might not know how to identify it.

完全正确。

Completely.

而且也有人想要关闭直觉，因为他们不相信它是一种有效的思考或决策方式。

And also there are people who like wish to shut it down because they don't believe that it's a valid modality of thinking or decision making.

我在麻省理工斯隆管理学院教书已经十年了，我确实看到了变化，即使是在那些更理性的高管人群中。

I mean, I've been teaching at MIT Sloan for ten years now and I've definitely seen a change even in those more rational kind of executive people.

大概七八年前，我记得在课堂上讲直觉的时候，有个年轻的领导者站起来说：我不是完全不接受这个概念，也许在个人生活里可以用，但在招聘或解雇这种重大决策上，我肯定不能靠直觉来做决定。

But sort of seven, eight years ago, remember being in the classroom teaching about intuition and a young leader standing up and saying, okay, it's not that I'm not open to this at all, like maybe for my personal life, but I'm obviously not going to make a really serious decision like hire or fire based on intuition.

结果马上有几个年纪大一点的同事说，我就是这么做的。

And immediately a couple of the older guys said, that's exactly how I would make those decisions.

最重要的那些决定，我都会动用我的智慧、判断力、人生经验以及识人的能力。

The most important decisions are the ones that I would use my wisdom and my judgment and my life lessons and my ability to read people.

所以听到大家这么说，感觉还挺不错的。

So that was kind of nice to hear from the audience.

不过话说回来，如果你成长的家庭环境没有在你做选择时给予足够的肯定，那确实容易让你产生自我怀疑，不再相信自己的直觉。

But yeah, if you weren't brought up, maybe in a family that kind of valued you when you made your choices, then that could lead to you having self doubt and not trusting your gut.

所以就像我刚才说的，我觉得最简单直接的方法就是写日记。

So like I said, I think this most basic way of trying to access it is journaling.

当然，不同的人对它的描述可能不太一样。

And there are different ways to describe it.

简单来说，这就是在倾听你内心的声音。

It's listening to your inner voice.

就像你说的，那种知道的感觉。

It's like you said, that sense of knowing.

它可能在你感到冲突的时候出现，比如这是正确的事，但我觉得不适合我，或者你知道的。

It's a bit probably comes up when you feel a conflict, this is the right thing to do, but I don't feel like it's for me or, you know.

对，这完全说得通。

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

我很好奇，倾听直觉的效果，以及跟随直觉的效果，如果结果没有按照你期望的那样发展呢？

I'm curious The efficacy of having to listen to that intuition and the efficacy of following your intuition and then the results not turning out the way that you wanted them to.

如果我有一个播客的想法，我非常兴奋，它是在半夜突然冒出来的，大多数时候确实是这样，凌晨三点，我半夜醒来，然后就有了这个想法。

You know, if I have an idea for a podcast and I'm really excited about it and it just came to me in the middle of the night, which really does most of the time, three AM, I wake up in the middle of the night, and then I get this idea.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后我顺着那个思路，去做，去创造，但结果不成功。

And and I follow that thread, and I do it, and I create it, and then it doesn't work.

那这时候，那种与更深层智慧的联系感会怎么样呢？

What what happens then to that sense of connection to to that deeper wisdom?

对我来说，开始会觉得有点像，也许我需要多质疑一下。

Like, I know for me, it starts to feel a little bit like maybe I need to question it more.

这想法是从哪儿来的？

Where's this coming from?

但那又只是我理性思考在介入罢了。

But that's just again my thinking mind going into that.

那么当人们跟着直觉走，但结果不如预期时，会发生什么？

So what happens when people have that sense of following their intuition and it doesn't work out the way that they planned?

对，这又是一个好问题。

Yeah, another great question.

所以我的意思是，如果我在辅导你，我会先质疑那个想法到底是不是真的来自你的直觉。

So I mean, the first thing I would question, let's say if I was coaching you was whether that intention actually came from your intuition or not.

因为这是我们首先要弄清楚的，不然我们就是在自欺欺人。

Because that's the first thing we have to cause otherwise we're misleading ourselves.

你

You

你自己也说了。

said it yourself.

如果那个念头来自小我，而且你对它的反应很强烈，那可能并不是你的直觉。

If it came from the egoic mind and the response to it was important, then it may not actually have been your intuition.

但假设它真的是直觉，那我们就

But let's say it was, you know, let's

假设它是吧。

say it was.

没有哪种思维方式在所有时候都是对的。

No one modality of thinking is correct all the time.

其实我们应该做的是，用逻辑去检验我们认为的那些直觉决定。

And really what we should be doing is self checking what we think are our intuitive decisions by running it through our own logic.

其次最好的办法就是问问你最好的朋友或者你的姐妹，或者某个了解你思维方式的人，他们能强烈感觉到什么对你有用或者没用。

The next best thing to do is to ask like your best friend or your sister, or somebody that you're close to who knows how you think, who will have a really strong sense of what they feel would work well for you or wouldn't.

所以可能只是你漏了几个步骤，你醒来时有个好主意，但可能没有为它创造最好的成功条件。

So it may be just that you're missing a couple of steps that you're waking up with a brilliant idea but you're maybe not setting it up for the best success.

但同样，如果你真的觉得那是你的直觉，结果却没成，那么从中要学到的就是，这件事不适合我，我该从中领悟到什么？

But equally, if you really felt it was your intuition and it didn't work out, then the takeaway from that is what was I meant to learn about the reason that this wasn't right for me?

所以我从小就有一种匮乏心态。

So I grew up having lack mentality.

就是，这算是成长的一部分吧。

Like, it's just kind of part of it.

像我说的，父母是移民，我们住的社区也不怎么好，总感觉缺很多东西。

And like I said, immigrant parents, like we didn't grow up in a great neighborhood and it was always like, there was just a lot of lack.

所以你长大后就总有这种想法，觉得什么都不够。

So so then you grow up having this idea that there is not enough.

就是那种，什么都不够，你得拼命干活。

There is, like, not enough, and you have to work really hard.

你必须非常努力，事情才能成，因为如果你不努力，到头来就不值得。

You have to work really hard for things to work because if you're not working hard, then at the end of the day, it's not worth it.

所以我很好奇，这怎么影响我们创造自己想要的生的能力，不管是你之前说到的显化，还是现在我们聊的直觉这个话题。

So I'm curious how that plays into our ability to, create the life that we want in either manifestation that you've talked about before or even in this this topic of intuition.

我们怎么才能摆脱那种……

How do we how do we take away...

就是说，我们怎么才能摆脱那种生存本能？

It's like, how do we take away the survival aspect of what is it?

就是那种边缘系统。

It would be the limbic system.

因为我们一直处于那种要么战斗要么逃跑的状态。

Because it's like we're in that fight or flight.

因为我们害怕自己没法维持生计。

Because we're in fear of us not having means to live.

如果我处于那种状态，怎么找到平衡呢？

How do I find that balance if I am in that state?

是的，我觉得这个问题至少有两部分。

Yeah, I think there's at least two parts to this question.

一部分是关于恐惧和匮乏，相对于丰盛、爱和信任。

So one of them is about fear and scarcity versus abundance and love and trust.

另一方面就是，你做某件事是因为需要赚钱，还是因为追随自己的热情和使命。

And the other one is about whether you're doing something because you need to make money or whether you're following your passion and your purpose.

现在说起来容易，但我凭一生的经历坚信，如果你追随自己的热情和使命，你一定会成功。

Now it's easy to say this in retrospect, but I fully believe from all of my life's experiences that if you follow your passion and your purpose, you will absolutely be successful.

如果你做一件事只是为了赚大钱，或者只是为了付账单，那失败的可能性就更大，因为你会更多地带着那种匮乏和缺失的心态去做事。

If you do something either to like just because you want to make lots of money or just to pay the bills, then there is more room for failure because you will be operating much more from that scarcity and lack mindset.

这意味着你无法完全发挥创造力。

That means that you're not fully able to be creative.

你没法去冒健康的险，也没法相信自己的直觉。

You're not able to take healthy risks and trust your intuition.

如果是为了生计，你去炒作内容完全没问题。

And it's absolutely fine to pitch content because you think it's going to be popular if your living.

但如果这违背了你的热情和使命，那可能就值得好好反思了。

But if it's going against your passion and your purpose, then that might be worth digging into.

你刚才提到，你从小在资源匮乏的环境中长大，总觉得外面的东西不够分，我也经历过同样的事情。

So you've given, and I've had the same thing, an obvious example of having grown up without many resources and feeling like there isn't enough out there for everyone.

这是我们大脑为了生存而自然形成的机制，比起追求奖励、相信丰盛，我们更倾向于逃避威胁或匮乏。

It's a natural wiring in our brain for survival to try to avoid threat or scarcity more than we would try to go for like reward and believe in abundance.

这源于我们的进化过程，基本上当时我们必须更警觉地躲避捕食者，而不是去找那些看不清的灌木丛里的浆果。

And it comes from our evolution where basically we had to be more aware of running away from a predator than we were of like looking for berries in a bush where you don't have great visibility.

这种机制并没有太大改变。

That wiring hasn't changed very much.

我们在很多方面都变了。

We've changed in so many ways.

世界变化这么大，但那种机制对我们的生存太重要了，所以它并没有很好地适应现代社会。

The world has changed so much, but that particular wiring is so integral to our survival that it really hasn't adapted very well to the modern day.

再说一次，我想说明我们讨论的是那些有足够食物、更担心心理安全的人，比如保住工作或让自由职业维持到能保持生活水平的人。

And, again, I just want to qualify that we are talking about people privileged enough to have enough food to eat and who are worrying more about psychological safety of keeping their job or their freelance practise going well enough that they can maintain their lifestyle.

所以，恐惧和爱是人类基本情感光谱的两端。

So fear and love are opposite ends of the spectrum of the basic human emotions.

我们有五种生存情绪：恐惧、愤怒、厌恶、羞耻和悲伤，以及两个依恋谱系：快乐、兴奋和爱、信任。

We have five survival emotions, fear, anger, disgust, shame and sadness, and two attachment spectrums, joy, excitement and love trust.

中间还有惊讶这种情绪。

And then in between we have surprise.

所以你已经可以看出，我们更多偏向于生存情绪和依恋情绪，而大脑更容易去规避稀缺，而不是去相信富足。

So you can already see that we're more weighted to survival emotions and attachment emotions and that the brain is more geared to avoid scarcity than it is to believe in abundance.

所以我们必须真正去克服大脑中的这种天然接线。

So we really have to override that natural wiring in our brains.

我觉得最好的方式就是感恩，但也有其他方法，比如冥想、瑜伽、写日记。

And I think the best way of doing that is gratitude, but there are other things or the obviously mindfulness meditation, yoga, journaling.

因为恐惧和爱不能共存，这些情绪就像跷跷板一样。

So because fear and love can't coexist because those emotions are kind of like on a seesaw.

所以当你处于恐惧状态，皮质醇水平高的时候，催产素水平就会相对较低，反之亦然。

So when you're in the fear state and you've got high levels of cortisol, then your oxytocin levels are relatively low and vice versa.

所以你要尽可能让自己进入催产素状态。

So you want to push yourself into an oxytocin state as much as you can.

而这大多来自于身体接触。

And that mostly comes from physical contact.

比如拥抱、亲吻和性。

So like hugs and kisses and sex.

但如果一个人，那就泡个热水澡而不是淋浴，自己按摩，或者如果条件允许，去按摩，那里有人体接触。

But if you're on your own, then like a warm bath rather than a shower, self massage, or if you can go for a massage, then that human touch.

眼神接触也能带来这种效果，幽默和分享幽默也能。

It also comes from eye contact and it also comes from humour and shared humour.

但感恩也能带来这种效果。

But it also comes from gratitude.

所以在我最低谷的时候，我花了一段时间才训练自己做到这点，但在最低谷时，我会说，“好吧，十件我感恩的事情。”

So at my lowest points, it took me a while to train myself to get to this quickly enough but at my lowest points I'll say, okay, 10 things I'm grateful for.

然后，你知道，我就会强迫自己过一遍那个清单。

And you know, I'll just make myself go through that list.

在我的日记练习中，我真正感到改变游戏规则的是，当我把它从全关于外部事物改变过来。

And what I felt really was a game changer for me in my journaling practice was when I changed that from being all about external things.

因为我以前总是写我的朋友、家人、旅行能力，这变得重复了。

Because I was regularly writing my friends, my family, my ability to travel and it just got repetitive.

所以我就想，好吧，我还能说些什么呢？

So I thought, okay, what else could I say?

当我改成说自己的韧性、创造力、脆弱这些之后，我每天都在提醒自己，我内心有这些工具来应对那些失望，去适应自由职业的生活等等。

And as soon as I changed it to things like my resilience, my creativity, my vulnerability, I was daily reminding myself of the toolkit that I have in me to deal with those disappointments, to go with the flow of being self employed and stuff like that.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

我太喜欢这个了，因为当你这样解释的时候，它把力量还给了我们。

Like I love that so much because when you're explaining it in that way it sort of gives us the power back.

它让我们重新能够活在当下，对吧？

It puts us back into a position of being able to be in the present moment right?

而且我很喜欢这和正念的联系，以及我们能够保持当下觉察的能力。

And I love how this relates to mindfulness and and our ability to be in in that present moment awareness.

对我来说，感恩练习就是……

I mean, for me, it's it's gratitude practice is...

它几乎就像是一个显而易见的东西。

It's it's almost like an obvious.

这真的是一个很棒的方法，能改变我的状态。

This is a really great way to, yeah, change my frequency.

如果我收到坏消息，或者收到一封让我生气的邮件，或者看到一条让我不爽的评论，我发现有时候去感受那些情绪，比如厌恶、愤怒，还有……

If I get some bad news or if I get an email that triggers me from someone or if I see, you know, a comment that might irk me, I find that sometimes going into those emotions, like the disgust, the anger, the...

那些感觉，对我来说很容易感受到。

Those feelings, it's it's easy for me to feel that.

而且我的大脑很容易让这种循环持续下去，除非我非常刻意地把自己拉回当下的意识中，你知道，如果……

And it's easy for my brain to perpetuate that cycle unless I very consciously put myself back into the present moment awareness and you know, what if...

或者出去走走。

Or go outside.

我很喜欢待在大自然里，就像，好的，我能看到什么？

I I love being out in nature and it's like, okay, what can I see?

我能闻到什么？

What can I smell?

我能摸到什么？

What can I touch?

我就让自己沉浸在感官体验里，这能帮我换个方向思考。

You know, just put myself in in connecting with the senses and it helps me sort of redirect that.

但有些人想体验这种重塑思维的训练。

But for people that, you know, are wanting to, you know, have this experience of retraining the mind.

你能再多讲讲神经可塑性吗？甚至先告诉我们神经可塑性是什么，这样听众才能真正理解这个概念，并且感到有希望，相信自己完全可以改变它。

Can you go into that a little bit more with regard to neuroplasticity, maybe even tell us what neuroplasticity is so that our listeners can can really, grasp this idea and and also feel hopeful that they can absolutely change it.

你真的是我经历过的最好的访谈之一。

You really are one of the best interviews that I've had.

而且你简直是读心高手。

And you're like a mind reader as well.

因为我一直在想，我需要说清楚什么是神经可塑性。

Because I was thinking the whole time, I need to say what neuroplasticity is.

我觉得我还没说过这个。

I don't think I said that.

神经可塑性是指大脑成长和变化的能力。

Neuroplasticity is the ability of the brain to grow and change.

所以这一点在从零岁到两岁之间非常明显，一开始完全脆弱无助，然后你会走路、会说话，孩子们能同时学五种语言，但这种学习能力、同时掌握五种语言的能力，不管你是否保留它们，都体现了巨大的神经可塑性。

And so this is very clear when we go from age zero to two, you know, start off completely vulnerable and helpless, and then you can walk, you can talk, children can learn up to five languages simultaneously, but the ability to learn, the ability to pick up five languages simultaneously, whether you keep them or not is like huge neuroplasticity.

到了青少年时期，大脑会进行大量的修剪，使其适应成年生活。

And then in teenage, there's a lot of pruning of the brain to make it sophisticated for adult life.

那些你很久没用的语言或进入成年后不再需要的技能可能会被修剪掉，你会变得更情绪化、更善于理解社交和性行为。

Languages that you haven't used for a long time or skills that you no longer require as you enter adulthood might get pruned away and you become more emotionally intelligent and more like understanding of social and sexual behaviour.

这一过程非常活跃，直到大约25岁。

And that's a very active process till we're about 25.

但从25岁以后，如果你不刺激大脑，它往往会趋于平稳。

But from 25 onwards, if you don't stimulate your brain, then it will tend to plateau.

所以，如果你做的工作很重复，总是见到同样的人，不怎么读书或学习新东西，那么你可能会过上不错的生活，但不会充分利用神经可塑性。

So if you're doing a job that's quite repetitive, if you see the same people all the time, if you don't read that much or like, you know, do new learning, then you know, you could have a perfectly fine life, but you won't be harnessing neuroplasticity, let's say.

我喜欢你说的给人希望，因为我常说神经可塑性就是希望，是改变的可能。

And I loved that you said for people to be hopeful because I literally say neuroplasticity is hope and it's the hope that you can change.

是希望你能有不同的想法、不同的行为，学习新东西，接受新奇事物，也就是那些你从未体验过的事情。

It's the hope that you can think differently, behave differently, learn new things, embrace novelty, which is just things you haven't experienced before.

所以我每年都会进行一项大的神经可塑性练习，但我会把吃一种从未吃过的食物也算作神经可塑性练习的一部分。

So I take on a big neuroplasticity practice each year, but I count things like eating a food I've never eaten before as part of my neuroplasticity practice.

和成长背景或生活经历与我截然不同的人交谈，我认为这也有助于我的神经可塑性。

Talking to someone who's had a very different upbringing or life to me, I consider that to be like contributing to my neuroplasticity.

但说到给人们希望，有一个非常简单的过程支撑着行为改变，那就是我在《源头》中阐述的利用神经可塑性为你的生活带来重大改变的过程。

But in terms of hope for people, there's a very simple process that underlies behaviour change, which is the process that I've laid out in the source for using neuroplasticity to bring a big change into your life.

第一步是提高意识，这已经成功了一半。

And the first part is raised awareness and that is 50% of the battle.

对我来说，我可以说服自己某件事是事实，但如果我受到挑战，因为我生活在一个非常神经可塑的方式中，我会很快对挑战我根深蒂固行为的反应做出回应。

So for me, you know, I can convince myself that something's a fact when if I'm challenged because I live in a very neuroplastic way, I respond very quickly to a challenge to an entrenched behaviour that I have.

对每个人来说不一定那么快，但意识占了一半。

It won't be necessarily that quick for everyone, but the awareness is 50%.

因为如果你只是在运行，我们在上线前讨论过操作系统的升级。

Because if you're just operating, we were talking before we came online about operating systems being upgraded.

如果你运行的是旧软件，如果你一生都在运行那个软件，那么有时确实需要有人告诉你，你知道吗，你可以用不同的方式来处理这件事。

If you're running on the old software, if you've been running on that software your entire life, then sometimes it does take someone to say, you do know you could approach this differently.

这或许就足以让你开始想，好吧，我能做些什么呢？

That might be enough to push you into thinking, okay, what can I do about it?

一旦你意识到想改变什么，或者想给生活带来什么新东西，下一步就是集中注意力。

Once you've had awareness about something that you want to change or a new thing you want to bring into your life, The next step is focused attention.

所以我不建议人们立刻尝试做出改变。

So I don't advise that people immediately try to make changes.

我让他们花大约一个月的时间来收集数据，看看旧行为在哪些情况下出现，带来了哪些他们不再想要的结果，有哪些可能的替代方案，以及这些改变能如何改善他们的生活。

I ask them to gather data for about a month of where the old behavior shows up, what it leads to that they no longer desire, what some potential alternatives are and how that could improve their life.

然后下一个阶段就是刻意练习。

And then the next stage is deliberate practice.

这时候你就开始采用理想中的新行为，并在现实生活中试一试。

So that's when you use the new desired behavior and you try it out in real life.

先在朋友和家人身上试试，然后在同事身上试试，再在那些关系更有挑战的人身上试试，不断重复这个新行为，直到它真正覆盖掉旧行为。

So you try it on friends and family, then you try it on colleagues, then you try it on, you know, maybe someone that you've got a more challenging relationship with and you keep repeating the new behavior until it literally overwrites the old behavior.

所以在神经学上，你无法抹掉大脑中已有的回路。

So you can't in neurology, you can't undo wiring that's already in your brain.

你没法忘记一门语言，但你可以用一门你用得更多的新语言或者你希望更多采用的新行为来覆盖它。

You can't unlearn a language, but you can overwrite it with a new language that you're using more or a new behaviour that you wish to use more.

不好意思，第四个要素是问责制。

And sorry, the fourth element is accountability.

所以如果你说：是的，塔拉，我真的想停止基于匮乏感来做决定。

So if you say, yes, Tara, I really want to stop making my decisions from scarcity.

然后今天结束的时候我们道别，你试着去做那些改变，你可能成功，也可能失败。

And then you and I say goodbye at the end of today and you try to make those changes, you may or may not be successful.

如果你知道我们六个月后还会再录一期播客，我会问你做了什么、你有什么改变、这些改变如何影响了你的生活，那你更有可能真正坚持下去，哪怕过程非常艰难。

If you know that we're going to record another podcast in six months time and I'm going to ask you what you've done, how you've changed, how it's changed your life, you're much more likely to actually keep going with that process even if it feels like very difficult.

但人们也不总能认识到，心理工作其实也是身体上的工作。

But also it doesn't always click for people that psychological work is a physical work.

你正在改变大脑中的神经通路。

You are changing pathways in your brain.

你在长出新的神经元。

You are growing new neurons.

你在把它们连接在一起。

You are connecting them up together.

这可能会让你感到疲倦。

It can make you tired.

这可能会让你感到饥饿。

It can make you hungry.

这可能会让你变得烦躁。

It can make you irritable.

而且很长一段时间内，新的路径需要时间才能变得比旧的路径更强大。

And for a long time, will take time for the new pathway to be stronger than the old pathway.

所以感觉好像你付出了很多努力，但什么都没发生，但后来会有一个转折点，当新神经元达到临界数量时，大脑更容易走那条新路径而不是旧路径。

So it feels like you're putting in all this hard work and nothing's happening, but then there's a tipping point where there's a critical mass of new neurons and the brain finds it easier to go down that pathway than the old one.

然后突然感觉一切在一夜之间就变了。

And then it suddenly feels like things changed overnight.

哇，这可真是……

Wow, this is so...

太神奇了，而且我喜欢这种可能性……

It's so wild, and I love how that possibility...

你说得对。

You're right.

这确实给人希望，因为我觉得，对一些人来说，仅仅是有可能去覆盖现有的软件，就足以让他们想要去做出改变了。

It is hopeful because the process of overriding software that's existent, I think, is enough for some people to maybe want to create that change.

我……

I'm...

我……

I...

还有，我特别喜欢你刚才说的关于责任感的这一点。当你说“六个月后我会跟你跟进”的那一刻，突然就有了一种能量上的转变。

And I love what you said too about there's an accountability piece the minute that you said in six months when I check-in with you, all of a sudden, there was this energetic shift.

连我都能在生理上感觉到。

Even I felt it physiologically.

就像是在说，我最好行动起来。

Was like, I better do.

我知道。

I know.

就像，哦，我得去做。

Was like, oh, I better do it.

我觉得这部分就是外部支持真正帮助我们实现这些转变的地方，对吧。

And I think that this part is where having external support really helps us create those shifts Mhmm.

而且真的要看到那种改变，我觉得很多人想看到的改变。

And to really see that that change that I think a lot of people want to see.

我在想，仪式感是不是也有同样的效果……

I I wonder if having ritual is the same...

是不是也有同样的效果。

Has has that same effect.

嗯，其实我不想说仪式感。

Well, I I don't wanna say ritual, actually.

我……

I'm...

也许我可以这样来提出问题。

Maybe I'll position the question like this.

我是在很多混乱中长大的。

I grew up in a lot of chaos.

所以对我来说，总是有……

So for me, there was always...

我就是在那种不确定中长大的。

I grew up in in that uncertainty.

比如，可能发生驾车枪击，或者就是持续不断的混乱。

Like, there was maybe a drive by shooting or there was, you know, like, constant constant chaos.

那是常态。

That was the norm.

所以随着年龄增长，成为成年人后，我想要确定性。

And so as I got older and I became an adult, I wanted certainty.

我不喜欢经常搬家。

I didn't like moving around a lot.

我想要...

I want...

我和我的伴侣在一起二十一年了。

I mean, I've been with my partner for twenty one years.

我就是特别喜欢有规律的生活。

Like, I just really love routine.

我真的很享受这种生活。

I really enjoy it.

但有时候我确实会感觉到，当我日复一日做同样的事情时，停滞感就来了。

But part of me really does feel that stagnation come in when I'm doing the same things over and over.

所以我想问问你对此有什么看法，比如说...

So I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit, like how...

我觉得有规律的生活是有帮助的，但听了你说的，我能理解这可能会阻碍成长。

I think having routine is helpful, but I could see with what you're saying how that could hinder the growth.

你说的是尝试新食物，甚至练习不同的语言。

I mean, you're talking about trying new foods and, you know, even practicing different languages.

比如旅行的时候，那些事情，我能明白它们对我们内在成长有多重要。

Like when you travel, like those things are, I could see how important those things can be for our internal growth.

那你能稍微聊聊这个话题吗？

So can you speak to that a little bit?

我能说的太多了，不过我最近特别迷嗅觉刺激。

There's so, so many things I could say, but I'm really into olfactory enrichment at the moment.

对，就是一天里尽量多闻各种不同的气味，这对随着年龄增长的认知和记忆力有帮助。

So yeah, smelling as many different things as you can during a day helps with your cognition and memory as you age.

而且你知道吗，不一定非得很愉悦的味道。在心理健康治疗中，有时候我们会把醋倒在纸巾上，让别人闻。

But you know, it doesn't even have to be something pleasant like in mental health therapy, sometimes we would get, we would like pour vinegar onto a tissue and say to people smell this.

然后问他们，这让你回忆起什么？

And then what memories does it bring back for you?

这听起来很英式，但常有人会说，像是海边用报纸包的炸鱼薯条那种感觉。

And this is very British, but people would say like, fish and chips by the beach wrapped in newspaper, that kind of thing.

其实就是通过气味唤起情绪和记忆。

So it's just about evoking the emotions and memories that come with smell.

这对你的大脑非常好。

That's very good for your brain.

就像我说的，多和背景与你很不同的人交流。

And like I said, you know, talking to people who have a very different background to you.

所以我总是说，要确保你有比你大二十岁和比你小二十岁的朋友。

So I always say make sure you've got friends who are twenty years older and twenty years younger.

旅行是激发神经可塑性的好方法。

Travel is a great way to induce your neuroplasticity.

基本上，大脑不太喜欢新事物，因为它把任何不熟悉的东西都视为威胁，但你需要勇敢地走出去，拥抱新事物。

Basically the brain doesn't really love new things because it sees anything that it doesn't know as a threat, but it's you being brave and putting yourself out there and kind of embracing new things.

塔拉，我真的很感激这次对话。

Tara, I am so, so grateful for this conversation.

我得说，我学到了很多，就像往常一样，每次听你说话，无论是在播客上，还是你谈论你的书，或者阅读资料，都让我有深刻的理解和希望。

I have to say I've learned so much as usual, every and any conversation I've heard you have, whether it's on podcasts or you talking about your book or reading the source, it really creates this deep sense of understanding and hope.

我觉得这真的是我从这次对话中得到的最大收获。

I think that that's really the biggest takeaway that that I've had from this conversation.

这真的让我充满希望，因为我知道有办法可以改变我的思维方式和生活方式。

You know, it it really makes me hopeful, to know that there are ways that I can change my my way of thinking and my way of being.

而且这些不同的实践背后都有很多美好的科学依据，无论是愿景板、感恩练习，还是去大自然里走走，还有我们聊到的所有其他事情。

And and there's so much beautiful science behind, you know, all these different practices, whether it's vision board or gratitude practice or going in nature and you know, all the different things we talked about.

嗯，你说你从这次对话中带走了希望，这让我非常感动，因为对我来说，这是非常美好的反馈。

Well, I'm very touched that you said that you've come away from this conversation with hope because that's a really beautiful piece of feedback for me.

我还想说，我敢打赌，当你得知一位神经科学家要来上节目时，你肯定没想到我们会进行这样一场对话。

I'm also going to say that I bet you didn't expect to have the conversation that we've had when you knew that a neuroscientist was coming on the show.

所以非常感谢大家来到这里，再次感谢您，博士。

So thank you all so much for being here and thank you again, Doctor.

塔拉·斯瓦特。

Tara Swart.

我觉得我们已经……

I feel like we're already just...

我想一直和你聊天。

I wanna just talk to you all the time.

新闺蜜。

New besties.

新闺蜜能做什么？

What could a new besties?

再说一次，我在开头就说过，我非常欣赏你所做的事情，也非常欣赏你的工作。

And, again, I I said this at the beginning, but I am such a fan of of what you're doing and such a fan of your work.

我真的很期待你的下一本书会带来什么。

I I really am so excited to see what the next book is gonna is gonna do.

是的，我也很期待能保持联系。

And, yeah, I'm I'm so excited to to stay connected.

我也是。

Me too.

下一本书出来的时候，我一定会再来上这个播客。

I'll definitely come back on the podcast when, the next book is

出来

out

因为你一定会喜欢的。

because you're gonna love it.