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我在提案会议上从不发言。
I wouldn't speak up at pitch meetings.
我记得是罗伯特·克罗尔维奇告诉我，你知道的，你可以做出贡献。
And I remember it was Robert Krowlwicz who told me, you know, you can contribute.
我当时说，我只是个秘书。
And I went, I'm the secretary.
你在说什么呢？
What are you talking about?
他看着我说，你有自己的见解。
And he looked at me and went, you have an opinion.
我想我们愿意听听看。
I think we'd like to hear it.
这里是《Radiolab》节目。
This is Radiolab.
我是露露·米勒。
I'm Lulu Miller.
在我们开始今天的节目之前，我想花点时间向大家介绍我们团队的一位成员。
And before we hop into today's episode, I wanna take just a moment to introduce you to someone on our team.
我是大卫·加贝尔，WNYC工作室的行政助理。
I am David Gabel, and I am the administrative assistant for WNYC Studios.
他对自己在节目中的贡献非常谦虚。
He is very modest about what he does at the show.
我就是个处理文书工作的。
I'm just like the paperwork guy.
但如果没有他，我们根本做不成《Radiolab》这档节目。
But we absolutely could not make Radiolab without him.
我不会制作节目，但我能确保大家愿意和我们一起制作节目。
I can't make an episode, but I can make sure people wanna make an episode with us.
每当我们聘请人员为节目工作时，大卫就是他们的联系人，很多人都和大卫打过交道。
Whenever we hire someone to do some work for the show, David is the person they hear from, and a lot of people hear from David.
我们可以聊聊事实核查员的事。
We can talk fact checkers.
我每个月都在给他们付钱。
I'm paying them every month.
自由撰稿记者们。
Freelance reporters.
还有我们才华横溢的插画师贾里德，我们一直在支付他的费用。
And I've got our illustrator brilliant illustrator, Jared, that we're paying him all the time.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
为整个混音带项目，
For all of mixtape,
我们
we
曾有一位出色的中文翻译。
had a wonderful Chinese translator.
大卫还负责处理我们所有有时很奇怪的报道开支。
David also handles all of our sometimes weird reporting expenses.
路边小旅馆、矿泉水瓶、自行车租赁、麦克风和驱虫喷雾。
Little roadside hotels and water bottles and bike rentals and microphones and bug spray.
我提交了一张收据，里面有2.99美元是买暖手宝的，当时我离北极圈只有两小时路程。
I submitted I submitted a receipt that had, like, $2.99 in there for for hand warmers when I was, like, two hours from the Arctic Circle.
都是些零零碎碎的东西。
It's a lot of little stuff.
是啊。
Yeah.
但当我终于听到这玩意儿时，看到整套戏服拼凑完成的样子，而不是满地散落的布料碎片，感觉真好。
But when I finally hear the darn thing, it's nice to, like, see the costume all put together, not just the pieces of cloth all over the place.
而且能看到你缝制的部分。
And, like, see the parts you sewed.
没错。
Yeah.
看到我缝制的部分时就会想，哦，原来那笔账单是花在这上面的。
See the parts that I sewed going, oh, that's what that bill was for.
如果没有Gable爷爷提交所有这些文件，这一切就不会发生。
And it wouldn't have happened if grandpa Gable didn't submit all this paperwork.
没有听众们的支持，这一切也无法实现。
And it wouldn't happen without the support we get from our listeners.
David能够开具支票支付节目制作中的所有费用——从暖手宝这样的小物件，到翻译、事实核查和飞机航班这样的大项——全靠你们的帮助。
The only way David is able to write checks to pay for everything that goes into making a show from the small things like hand warmers to the big things like translators and fact checkers and airplane flights is with your help.
帮助David和我们Radiolab团队所有人的最佳方式，就是加入实验室会员计划。
And the best way to help David and all of us here at Team Radiolab is to join the lab.
这是支持我们的一种简单方式。
It's an easy way to support us.
作为回报，你会获得独家周边商品、额外访谈内容和无广告收听等酷炫福利。
And in return, you get cool stuff like exclusive merch, bonus interviews, and ad free listening.
我们即将迎来财年结束，这就是我现在喋喋不休的原因。
And we're coming up on the end of our fiscal year, which is why I'm I'm yammering at you now.
我们需要750名新实验室成员来实现预算目标。
And we need 750 new lab members to hit our budget goal.
不到1000人。
Less than 1,000.
这只是你们中的一小部分。
It's a small fraction of you.
所以如果你能省下几块钱，请考虑加入我们。
So if you can spare a few bucks, please consider joining.
如果你在六月前注册，就能获得一个全新的Radiolab餐厅马克杯。
If you sign up by the June, you get a brand new Radiolab diner mug.
它是淡蓝色的。
It's baby blue.
它不仅能装咖啡。
It doesn't just hold coffee.
还能装茶、水、牛奶，以及你宿敌的泪水。
It also holds tea, water, milk, the tears of your nemesis nemesisi.
所以，请访问radiolab.org/join查看马克杯详情，了解实验室，并考虑成为会员吧。
So, yeah, please go to radiolab.org/ join to check out the mug, check out the lab, and consider becoming a member.
这对我们意义重大。
It means so much to us.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Alright.
现在开始今天的节目。
On with today's show.
哦，等等。
Oh, wait.
你正在收听。
You're listening.
好的。
Okay.
行吧。
Alright.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Alright.
你正在收听《倾听》。
You are listening Listening.
收听《Radiolab》。
To Radiolab.
《Radiolab》。
Radiolab.
来自
From
WNY Lucy。
WNY Lucy.
Lucy。
Lucy.
是的。
Yep.
好的。
Alright.
好的。
Alright.
我是露露。
I'm Lulu.
我是拉蒂夫。
I'm Latif.
这里是Radiolab，今天的故事由制作人辛杜·尼亚内萨姆·班丹提供。
This is Radiolab, and today's story comes to us from producer Sindhu Nyanesam Bandhan.
好的。
Okay.
这个故事，某种程度上是它找到了我。
So this story, it sort of found me.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yep.
去年，我正在制作一期关于记忆的节目。
Last year, I was working on this episode about memory.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我当时正在和一位名叫马克·惠特曼的神经科学家交谈。
And I was talking to this neuroscientist, Mark Whitman.
那太糟糕了。
That's too bad.
然后他顺便提到
And as a sort of aside
你可以把这段剪掉。
You you can sort of cut this out anyway.
他问了我一个问题。
He asked me this question.
如果你闭上眼睛，想象一个红苹果。
If you if you close your eyes and you think about, let's say, a red, red apple.
对吧？
Yeah?
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在再睁开你的眼睛。
Now open it again, your eyes.
你能告诉我你看到了什么吗？
Can you tell me what you saw?
你看到了什么？
What did you see?
上面有一片叶子。
There was a leaf on it.
它是嗯。
It was Mhmm.
二维的。
Two dimensional.
我没有我没有想到三维的。
I didn't I didn't think in three d.
你有没有看到颜色？
Did you ever did you see a color?
没有。
No.
我不知道用心灵看到颜色意味着什么。
I don't know what it would mean to see a color with your mind.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
所以谁知道呢？
So who knows?
等等。
Wait.
即使他告诉你红苹果？
So even though he told you red apple?
我什么都没看到。
I saw nothing.
但你看到了叶子。
But you saw Leaf.
对吧？
Right?
我我知道。
I I know.
我只是觉得我必须说点什么关于
I just I felt like I had to say something about an
苹果。
apple.
你在测试中作弊。
You cheating I on the test.
我是说，没有撒谎。
I mean, wasn't lying.
就像，这在我生活中经常出现。
Like, this has come up a lot in my life.
好吗？
Okay?
人们会说想象某个东西。
People are like visualize something.
所以我一直以为这是个比喻。
And so I just always thought it was a metaphor.
就像，我只是按自己的方式做了。
Like, I just did my version of that.
那是什么？
Which is what?
像是...一个词
Like like a word
类似词云那种东西吗？
cloud kind of thing?
不是。
No.
这不是一个词云。
It's not a word cloud.
这是一种抽象的认识。
It's it's like an abstract knowing.
比如，我知道我爱某个人。
Like, I know I love someone.
就像，我知道苹果有片叶子。
Like, I just know that an apple has a leaf.
我有一部分知道那是真的，但并没有看到它。
There's a part of me that knows that that is true, but it's not seeing it.
比如，如果我闭上眼睛去想，真的只是一片漆黑。
Like, if I close my eyes and think about it, like I like, it's really just black.
哇。
Wow.
但当然，让我惊讶的不是我脑子里发生的事情。
But, of course, the thing that was surprising for me was not what's going on in my head.
就像，我知道我这一生都是这样过来的。
Like, I know I I I've lived in that my whole life.
对。
Right.
真正让我大开眼界的是
The thing that blew my mind open
我正在想象一个红富士苹果。
I'm picturing a red delicious apple.
是别人脑海中的景象。
Was what's been going on in everybody else's head.
左下角还泛着一点黄光。
Got a little yellow shine on the bottom left.
就是那种亮到看起来有点打蜡的苹果。
Like the ones that are so shiny that they look kinda waxy.
那次访谈后，我开始逢人就问红苹果的样子。
After that interview, I started obsessively asking everybody I came across a red apple.
描述他们的苹果。
To describe their apple.
它不是完全红色的，但
It's not perfectly red, but
它是红色的，带有一些黄色和绿色的条纹。
it's red with little streaks of yellow and green.
你真的能看到颜色吗？
And do you actually see the color?
我想是的。
I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
每次都是，你是指什么？
And every time What do
什么意思？
you mean?
我脑海中的图像。
The images in my head.
我怎么会看不到颜色？
How could I not see the colors?
我不知道。
I don't know.
你的眼睛是闭着的。
Your eyes are closed.
人们会说他们确实能看到。
People would say they could actually see it.
不。
No.
我确实看到了那些颜色。
I'm definitely seeing the colors.
哇。
Wow.
你看到了吗？
Do do you see it?
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像一颗闪亮的红苹果。
It's like a shiny red apple.
比如，我现在就正看着它。
Like, I am seeing it right now.
就像你在现实生活中看到东西那样吗？
In the way that you see things in real life?
有多生动呢？
Like, how vivid is it?
我是说，还挺生动的。
I mean, it's decently vivid.
就像，它放在一个白色盘子上，摆在那种食堂风格的桌子上。
Like, it it's on a white plate on a kinda cafeteria style table.
就像，我上中学的时候。
Like, I went I went middle school.
我知道是几年级，因为那时是皮乔利老师教的，所以是六年级。
I I know the grade I went because this is when I had miss Piccioli, so it was sixth grade.
我把它扔进了那个特定的食堂里。
I threw it into that particular cafeteria.
轻轻一碰。
Soft touch.
你是从苹果那里得到的吗？
You got that from Apple?
是的。
Yeah.
当她说想象一个苹果的时候。
When she said picture an apple.
你的呢，拉蒂夫？
How about yours, Latif?
好吧。
Okay.
我的其实没那么生动，更像是卡通风格的
Mine mine is actually mine's not that vivid, but mine's like it's kind of a cartoon
苹果，我想。
of an apple, I think.
比如，我也不知道。
Like, I don't know.
我越想越觉得，
The more I think about it, I'm like, am
我在看它吗？
I seeing it?
是啊。
Yeah.
比如，在脑海中看到到底是什么意思？
Like, what does seeing in the mind even mean?
对。
Right.
嗯。
Yeah.
我想这只是文字描述吧。
I guess it is just words.
我们怎么知道呢？
Like, how do we know?
也许我看到的是和你一样的模糊画面，但我对此感到兴奋并诗意盎然，而你却觉得，呃，没什么。
Maybe I see the same blur as you, but I get all excited and poetic about it, and you're just like, meh.
那里没什么东西。
There's not much there.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们怎么能确定呢？
How can we be sure?
我是说，嗯，很长一段时间里，我们都无法确定。
I mean, well, for a long time, we couldn't be sure.
我们只能某种程度上相信某人所说的，那就是他们想象的样子。
We had to sort of take someone's word for it that that's what they were imagining.
那就是他们的体验感受。
That's what their experience was like.
但后来我发现了这个人，乔尔·皮尔森。
But then I found this guy, Joel Pearson.
我是新南威尔士大学认知神经科学教授。
I'm a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of New South Wales.
他偶然间发现了这种方法，能够真正展示出这里的差异。
Who sort of, like, stumbles into this way of showing that there really is a difference here.
这几乎是个意外发现。
Was almost an accidental discovery.
所以
So
有一天，他在实验室里。
One day, he's in his lab.
实际上是在编写一个实验程序。
Was programming an experiment actually.
他当时在摆弄一种叫做双眼竞争的东西。
He was playing around with this thing called binocular rivalry.
这是个非常神奇的现象
It's an amazing illusion
嗯
Mhmm.
你给每只眼睛呈现完全不同的画面，然后
Where you present very different pictures, one to each eye, and
基本上，你戴上这种类似VR眼镜的设备，给每只眼睛显示不同的图像。
you can Basically, you put on these sort of, like, VR goggles that give each eye a different image.
比如说，左眼看到绿色方块，右眼看到红色圆圈。
So let's say your left eye gets a green square, and your right eye gets a red circle.
等等。
Wait.
好的。
Okay.
所以每只眼睛只能看到其中一个图像？
So each eye only gets one of those?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
每只眼睛都看不到另一只眼睛看到的内容。
Each eye can't see what's going on in the other eye.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Got it.
而且，你知道，通常情况下，当你环顾四周时，你的两只眼睛会接收到略微不同的图像。
And, you know, typically, when you're just looking around at things, like, your your your eyes are getting slightly different images.
对。
Right.
你的大脑会将这两幅不同的图像融合在一起。
Your brain's fusing those two different images together.
但是，就像
But, like
当这些图像差异很大时，比如这个实验，你的大脑就无法做到这一点。
When those images are very different, like this experiment, your brain can't do that.
所以转而你
So instead You
会看到这些美妙的振荡现象。
get these beautiful oscillations.
你的大脑只是在两者之间随机切换。
Your brain just sort of, like, randomly switches between the two.
就像是绿色方块、红色圆圈。
It's like green square, red circle.
绿色方块、红色圆圈。
Green square, red circle.
实际上，你的意识正以这种非常随机的方式来回切换。
So literally, your consciousness is changing back and forward in this sort of really random manner.
所以我当时正在编程一个实验来研究这个现象。
So I was programming an experiment to look at that.
出于某种原因——今天我已记不清缘由——我当时想，我要在脑海中想象这两张图片中的一张。
And for some reason, and today I don't remember why, I thought, I'm gonna imagine one of these two pictures.
在他启动图像和护目镜之前，他说，好吧。
Before he turns on, like, the images and the goggles, he's like, okay.
让我想象一个绿色的正方形。
Let me just imagine a green square.
然后
And then
他启动了它。
He turns it on.
我当时就想，我看到了我想象的东西。
And I was like, I saw the thing that I imagined.
乔尔只看到了绿色的正方形。
Joel only sees the green square.
什么？
What?
不。
No.
这不可能。
This can't be.
让我再试一次。
Let me try that again.
现在想象红色的那个。
Now imagine the red one.
现在我在双筒象牙中看到了红色画面。
And now I saw the red picture in the binocular ivory.
哇。
Woah.
就像想象红色圆圈让他的大脑真的选择展示那个图像。
It's like just imagining the red circle made his brain actually choose to show him that one.
他的想法确实改变了他看到的内容。
Like, what he thought actually changed what he saw.
事实证明我们的想象确实会改变视觉感知。
Turns out that what we imagine does change our visual perception.
这确实改变了我们看待世界的方式，不过前提是你具备心理意象能力。
It literally changes how we see the world with the caveat, you know, if you have mental imagery.
像我这样的人就具备这种能力
If someone like me does
我们看不到相同的反应。
it We don't see that same response.
我的思维不会停留在想象的对象上。
My mind doesn't linger on the imagined object.
它只是在两者之间来回切换。
It just kind of switches between the two.
哇。
Wow.
这实际上是第一种测量视觉想象力的客观方法。
It was actually the first sort of objective method to measure visual imagination.
自那以后，我们又开发了几种其他方法。
Since then, we've developed a few other ways.
乔尔继续寻找这些客观方法来观察差异。
And Joel's continued to find these, like, objective ways to see a difference.
比如，做了一个实验观察人们的眼睛。
Like, did this one experiment looking at people's eyes.
如果我们抬头看光，瞳孔会收缩。
If we look up at the light, our pupils contract.
对吧？
Right?
当然，在黑暗环境中，瞳孔会完全放大。
When you're in the dark, of course, your pupil opens right up.
有视觉想象力的人，如果你让他们想象看着太阳
People who have imagery, if you ask them to imagine, say, looking at the sun
他们的瞳孔实际上会收缩。
Your pupil actually constricts.
就像他们真的在看太阳一样。
As if they were actually looking at the sun.
不。
No.
但如果一个脑海中没有图像的人这么做
But if someone with no images in their head does this
就不会产生这些效果。
You don't get these effects.
完全没有吗？
Not at all?
完全没有。
Not at all.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
这种现象甚至有个专门的名称，指无法在脑海中形成图像。
And there's even a name for this, for not being able to see in your head.
心盲症。
Aphantasia.
心盲症。
Aphantasia.
这个词是什么意思？
What does that word mean?
为了确保我们真的
Just so we really
嗯，aphantasia指的是想象力。
fan Well, aphantasia means imagination.
好的。
Okay.
而心盲症则意味着缺乏想象力。
And aphantasia means no imagination.
哇。
Wow.
我知道。
I know.
所以大约有1%的人什么都看不见。
So there's like about one percent of us who don't see anything.
大多数人能看到一些东西，比如模糊的线条或像你（Latif）那样的卡通画面，甚至像你（Lulu）那样更生动的画面。
Most people see something, like maybe vague lines or cartoons like you, Latif, or even more vividly like you, Lulu.
但还有另外一些人。
But then there are these other people.
我会编造这些故事，并且能看见它们。
I would fabricate these stories, and I would see them.
我就像看电影一样看到它们。
I would see them like they were movies.
他们说自己的想象画面和真实所见一样生动。
Who say their imagery is as vivid as real seeing.
创造出一个完整的世界，在那里我仿佛骑着飞马翱翔，你知道吗，对我而言那感觉无比真实。
Create this entire world where I'm like flying on a Pegasus back, you know, and it's as real to me.
哇哦。
Woah.
这被称为超常想象症。
It's called hyperphantasia.
大约2%到3%的人拥有这种能力。
About two to three percent of people have it.
当你让这些人想象直视太阳时，他们的瞳孔会剧烈收缩。
And when you ask these people to imagine staring at the sun, their pupils super constrict.
哇哦。
Woah.
我可以走进后院。
I can go into the backyard.
我可以步行去朋友家。
I can walk to my friend's house.
我可以走到我们以前常在那棵树上玩耍的天主教学校。
I can walk to the Catholic school where we used to play on the tree.
有个人描述说他能像穿越回童年世界一样行走。
One guy described being able to, like, walk through his childhood world.
我可以偶遇老朋友们。
I can run into old friends.
我可以一直走下去。
I can just keep walking.
哇。
Wow.
它陪伴着我。
It keeps me company.
所以，通常我其实从不感到孤独。
So, like, I never actually feel lonely usually.
这位女士描述说读书对她来说就像
This woman described reading books being like
就像我在看电影一样，只不过我是站在电影里面。
As if I was watching a film, except that I'm standing in the film.
置身于电影中，哇哦。
Being in a movie Woah.
当另一个人阅读时，画面感如此强烈，以至于他有时会直接离开书页，就像
That when this other person reads, the visuals are so strong that he'll sometimes just leave the page, like
所以我就在酒馆这边，然后上楼去了。
So I'm just over here in the saloon and going upstairs.
故事甚至都没发生在楼上。
The story doesn't even take place up there.
哦，所以就像是进入了书中的世界，脱离了作者所写的内容，然后就像是在探索。
Oh, so it's like it's in the world of the book, leaves the page of what the author is saying and just is like And explore.
我只是
I'm just
要去探索这个虚构的世界。
gonna go explore this fictional world.
是啊。
Yeah.
我只是想知道它
I just wanted to know what it
看起来是什么样子。
looked like.
就像，我无法只听音乐而不在脑海中形成完整的，可以说是一部视频。
Like, I cannot hear music without having a complete, I guess you could say, video.
我有过这样的经历，比如试图寻找一个音乐视频，结果发现它并不存在。
I've had the experience of, like, trying to find a music video that then I find out doesn't exist.
那只是存在于我的想象中。
It was just in my mind.
这位女士描述说她脑海中不断有这些画面在背景中播放。
This woman described having these, like, images that just constantly play in the background of her mind.
比如，在采访中途，我问了她。
Like, in the middle of the interview, I asked her.
我当时就问，你现在是看到了什么吗？
I was like, are you seeing something right now?
那就像是一个特别感人的爱情场景，发生在两个角色之间。
It's like a really touching, like, love moment between two characters.
她去世前来看望他，而他以为那是一场梦。
She passes away and visits him before she dies, and he thinks it's a dream.
天啊。
Oh my god.
她骑上了一匹独角兽。
She climbs up onto, like, a unicorn.
她穿着最美的裙子，然后他醒来看着她骑着独角兽冲向墙壁消失不见。
She's wearing a most beautiful dress, and then he wakes up to watch her ride the unicorn into the wall and disappear.
所以你一边回答我的问题，一边在脑海里经历这些画面？
So you are experiencing that in your head while you're answering my questions.
是的。
Yeah.
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是的。
Yeah.
刚刚发生的。
That's just happened.
就像我背景里开着个电视一样。
It's like it's like I have a TV on in the background.
哇。
Wow.
当你和这个女人交谈时，你感觉如何？是感到嫉妒吗？
And and when you were talking to this woman, like, what like, what is the fee are you feeling jealousy?
你是否觉得他们得到了你得不到的东西？
Are you feeling like like they're getting something you aren't?
天啊。
Oh my god.
你在开玩笑吗？
Are you kidding?
我太嫉妒了。
I am so jealous.
想到作为人类有这样一个完整的部分，我却永远无法体验。
Just to know that there's this, like, whole part of being a human that I will just never get to experience.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如，我在听一集老版的《Radiolab》节目。
Like, I was listening to this old Radiolab episode.
从没听说过。
Never heard of it.
那是什么节目？
What show is that?
是适合你的吗？
Is that for you?
那是一集叫《我是谁》的老节目
It's like some old episode called Who Am I with
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
是啊。
Yeah.
罗伯特。
Robert.
然后他继续讲这个小小的——其实，你们知道吗？
And he goes on this little actually, you know what?
你们想听听看吗？
Do you guys wanna hear it?
好啊。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
好的。
Okay.
任何一个人类
Any human being
你能听到吗？
Can you hear that?
可以想象一辆白色汽车并将其改造。
Can take a white car and make it in their imagination.
她可以在想象中给它涂上红色。
She can paste red on it in his imagination.
但你认为猴子做不到。
But a monkey, you don't think, can do it.
它做不到
It cannot do
这对人类来说非常简单。
And this is so simple for a human being to do.
让我们快速进行一个小练习。
And I just let's run through a quick exercise.
好的。
Okay.
在脑海中为我想象一只鸟。
Imagine for me a bird in your head.
想象出那只鸟了吗？
Got a bird in there?
我要稍微快进一下。
I'm just gonna cut forward a little bit.
只有人类能做到这一点，因为只有人类能将现实世界的图像引入脑海，分解成部分，然后开始将这些部分抽象化。
Only a human being could do this because only humans can take images from the real world, pull them into their heads, divide them into parts, and then start turning those parts into abstractions.
猴子，正如拉梅什·钱德兰所说，无法做到
Monkeys, as Ramesh Chandran, can't do
这一点。
that.
而你坐在那里心想，
And you're sitting there like,
啊。
ah.
他基本上就是在说你是只猴子。
He basically just called you a monkey.
不。
No.
猴子其实能进行视觉想象。
Like, monkeys can visualize.
只是它们大多无法改变脑海中的图像。
Like, most of them just can't change the image.
罗伯特说我连猴子都不如。
Robert says I'm worse than a monkey.
虽然我知道这很好笑，但说实话这也让我有点难过。
And, like, I know it's funny, but, like, it's just it also makes me sad.
我想沉浸在书的世界里。
I wanna disappear into books.
当一本书描写得非常细致时，我会把同一段落反复读上五遍，但脑子里什么也留不下。
When a book is, like, really descriptive, I'll just read the same paragraph again, like, five times and nothing will enter my brain.
没错。
Right.
密密麻麻的文字墙。
Dense wall of words.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且，想到自己无法像你们所有人那样保存记忆。
And also, yeah, just thinking about, oh, I don't get to I don't I just don't get to hold memories the way that all of you get to.
我的记忆不是我能前往的地方。
Like, my memories aren't places I go.
我无法看见、感受或触碰它们。
Like, I don't get to see or feel or touch them.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我几乎想让你们现在就想象一个你们爱的人。
I almost wanna make you guys, like, picture someone you love right now.
明白了吗？
Got it.
然后分享一下你们看到的画面和感受。
And just like share what you see and how it feels.
是啊。
Yeah.
奇怪的是，这感觉很亲密，但确实如此。
It's weirdly, like, intimate, but just yeah.
因为你在想象——我是说，我在想我的妻子格蕾丝。
Because you're just picturing I mean, I'm thinking of Grace, my wife.
我在想她脸颊高处那层细小的绒毛，还有她眼周的细纹。
And I'm thinking of, like, the little peach fuzz on the on her high part of her cheek and like a little crinkle like the crinkles around her eyes.
嗯，是的。
And, yeah.
我只是在想象她，比如，在漫长的一天后放松下来的样子。
I'm just kind of imagining her, like, softening after a long day.
就像，我能想象她身后浴室门透出的灯光。
Like, I could picture the bathroom door light on behind her.
她正转过身来。
She's turning back.
那一刻，一天的疲惫消融，就像一个小小的笑容，面部表情放松下来，职责完成，瞬间的连接感。
Like, that moment where, like, the stress of the day melts, and it's just like a little, like, like a laugh, a little face shifting duties are done, quick moment of connection.
而且，是的，这画面非常生动。
And, yeah, it's very vivid.
就像是她四分之三侧脸的样子。
It's just like her face at a three quarter profile.
好的。
Okay.
我突然想起了我的曾祖母。
I had this flash to my my great grandmother.
她有一头鲜红的头发，因为她会用指甲花染发。
Like, she has bright red hair because she would like henna dye her hair.
是啊。
Yeah.
我能想象她坐在椅子上的样子。
And and I can picture her sitting on a chair.
她就那样坐在那里，轻轻笑着。
She's sort of sitting there and like kinda laughing.
就像那样。
Like that.
比如，我想要那样。
Like, I want that.
对。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像是，啊。
And it's like, ah.
在和那位科学家乔尔的对话中，有这么一个时刻
And at one point in that conversation with that scientist, Joel
你能给患有心盲症的人提供意象吗
Can you give someone who has aphantasia imagery
是的。
Yeah.
通过正确的方法？
With the right approach?
我认为这是有可能的。
I think it would be possible.
是的。
Yeah.
他说他认为可以赋予这种能力
He said he thinks he can give it
给他。
to him.
等等。
Wait.
他究竟要怎么做？
How would he even do that?
是的。
Yeah.
乔尔发现，当他用非常微弱的电流刺激人们的视觉皮层时，他们的意象能力实际上增强了。
So Joel found that when he ran this, like, very low electrical current through people's visual cortex, their imagery actually got stronger.
哇哦。
Woah.
不过他认为对于完全没有意象能力的人来说会更复杂。
Now he does think it would be more complicated for people who are starting out with no imagery.
我无法通过刺激你的大脑就让你开始说一门新语言。
I can't stimulate your brain, and you can start speaking a new language.
你必须先学习那些内容。
You have to learn that content first.
你必须学会如何将前额叶皮层与视觉皮层连接起来，以驱动视觉皮层。
You have to learn how to connect your frontal cortex with your visual cortex to drive visual cortex.
但我
But I
认为我们有办法做到这一点
think there are ways we can do this
通过练习。
With practice.
经过一段时间的大脑刺激训练，或许可以实现。
Training with brain stimulation over some time could probably do it.
你试过吗？
Have you tried?
我们还没有进行过那样的尝试。
We haven't done that yet.
如果你让一个从未有过意象能力的人在短短一周内获得这种能力，我认为这可能相当危险。
If you took someone who'd never had imagery and you gave them imagery, let's say, in a week, I think that could be quite a dangerous thing.
什么？
What?
为什么？
Why?
广告休息后我会告诉你原因。
I'll tell you why after the break.
嘿。
Hey.
我是莫莉·韦伯斯特，这是BetterHelp的广告。
I'm Molly Webster, and this is an ad by BetterHelp.
所以这件事每年都会发生。
So it happens every year.
季节正在更替。
The seasons are changing.
白昼逐渐变短。
The days are getting shorter.
基本上，一旦窗外天色变暗，我就感觉整个世界都消失了，只剩下我一个人，无事可做。这个十一月，BetterHelp呼吁大家主动联系身边的人。
And basically, once it becomes dark outside of my window, I feel like the rest of the world disappears, and I'm just alone, and there's nothing left to do This November, BetterHelp is asking everyone to reach out to our people.
可以是你的家人、朋友、邻居，共同抵抗这种'作茧自缚'的冲动。
That could be your family, your friends, your neighbors, and to resist this call of the cocoon.
是的，主动联系确实需要些勇气。
And, yeah, reaching out can take some courage.
我手机里还存着一月份没回复的短信。
I've got text messages from January I haven't responded to.
知道吗？
And you know what?
我现在就要回复他们。
I'm gonna write them back right now.
嗨。
Hi.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我一直没联系你。
I've been missing.
你最近怎么样？
How are you?
为什么我们不早点这样做呢？
Why don't we all do this sooner?
心理咨询也是如此。
Therapy is the same way.
BetterHelp让迈出第一步变得更容易。
BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step.
你只需填写一份简短的问卷，他们就会为你匹配一位他们认为你会喜欢的持证治疗师。
You just fill out a short questionnaire, and they find a licensed therapist who they think you'll like.
我们的听众在betterhelp.com/radiolab首月可享9折优惠。
Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/radiolab.
网址是betterhelp.com/radiolab。
That's better,help,.com/radiolab.
如何
How
大脑如何处理记忆？
does the brain process memories?
为什么人工智能既是气候问题的解决方案又是问题本身？
Why is AI a solution and a problem for our climate?
2025年及未来的领导力是什么？
What is leadership in 2025 and beyond?
TED Radio Hour携手全球顶尖思想家，探讨我们这个时代最重大的问题与最复杂的理念。
The TED Radio Hour explores the biggest questions and the most complicated ideas of our time with the world's greatest thinkers.
现在即可收听NPR出品的TED Radio Hour节目。
Listen now to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
如果我想体验飞翔，可以想象它，那感觉就像真的在飞一样。
If I want to experience flying, can imagine it, and it's kind of, like, really flying.
有星星从我的视野中心向外边缘移动，甚至还有行星。
There were stars coming from the center of my vision to the outer edge of my vision, or even planets.
这取决于我经过的是什么。
It depends on what I'm passing by.
大片云朵呈现出粉红色和黄色，或许还夹杂着些许蓝色。
Large clouds that are like pink and yellow and maybe a little bit of blue mixed in there.
我能感受到空气拂过皮肤的凉意，有点像一种声音。
I can feel the coolness of the air as it hits my skin, kind of like a sound.
露露。
Lulu.
拉蒂夫，这里是《Radiolab》。
Latif, Radiolab.
我们一直在和我们的制作人辛杜交谈，她无法在脑海中形成图像。
We've been talking to our producer, Sindhu, who cannot make images in her mind.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
刚才你听到的那个人叫德里克，他和我完全相反。
And the person you just heard, his name is Derek, and he is the opposite of me.
比如，当我让他描述一个苹果时，他的描述简直天马行空。
Like, when I asked him to describe his apple, his description was wild.
我可以把它变成红色、绿色或金色。
I I could make it red or I can make it green or or golden.
我能让苹果散发出光芒。
I can make a light radiate off of it.
比如现在，我觉得让苹果顶端冒出雷电乌云很有意思。
Like, right now, I think it's interesting to like make a cloud of thunderbolts coming off of the top of the apple.
现在那里出现了一个村庄，人们正在逃离风暴，因为云层中正有龙卷风降临。
And now there's like a village with people and they're like running away from the storm because there's a tornado dropping down from the the cloud.
有个人从苹果上跳了下来，现在正坠入下方那片海洋中
And there's one guy that jumped off of the apple and now he's falling into this ocean down below the
苹果和...哇
apple and Wow.
什么？
What?
早些时候我们了解到，有位科学家或许能让我获得更像Derek的能力
And earlier, we learned that there's this scientist who, like, maybe could give me that ability to be a little more like Derek.
对
Right.
但他说这可能有危险？
But he said it could be dangerous?
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
我之所以告诉你关于德里克的事，是因为实际上是他帮我明白了原因。
And the reason I'm telling you about Derek is because he's actually the one that helped me understand why.
好的。
Okay.
所以德里克
So Derek
让我想想。
Let's see.
他和我年纪相仿。
He's about my age.
我快30岁了。
I'm about to be 30.
他出生在新英格兰地区。
He was born in New England.
马萨诸塞州。
Massachusetts.
他八岁时搬到了德克萨斯州。
Moved to Texas when he was eight.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说小时候，他非常喜欢这种超级丰富的想象力。
And he says as a kid, he loved having this supercharged imagination.
我可以完全沉浸在自己的想象中，随心所欲地幻想。
I could just live in my head and imagine whatever I wanted.
就像生活在虚拟现实里，或者随便你怎么称呼它。
It was like living in virtual reality or whatever you wanna call it.
这对他来说是件好事，因为现实生活相当艰难。
Which is nice for him because real reality was pretty hard.
我和妈妈，我们那时非常穷。
My mom and I, we we were pretty poor.
我们曾短暂地住过一段时间的无家可归者收容所。
We stayed in a homeless shelter for a short while.
我们并没有在一个地方停留太久。
We didn't really stay in one place for very long.
所以我从未有机会真正了解别人。
So I I never got to know people.
你知道的，生活总是颠沛流离。
And it was very, you know, here and there.
但每当德里克感到悲伤、害怕，或者只是无聊时，他就会闭上眼睛，沉浸在自己的想象世界里。
But whenever Derek got sad or scared or, like, even just bored, he would close his eyes and just go into his imagination.
或者
Or
有时他甚至会这样做：把脑海里的东西具象化，仿佛能将其投射到现实空间里，真实地呈现在物质世界中。
sometimes he'd even do this thing where he would take something from his mind and plop it out into like physical space, like out out into the physical world.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如坐在车里时，我会望着窗外发呆。
So I would be in a car and I'd be looking out the window.
我会想象这个男人，他看起来像个超级英雄之类的。
I would imagine this man, he would look like a superhero or something.
他会以极快的速度沿着这些车辆奔跑，然后跳跃、飞翔，还会翻跟头。
And he would just be running really fast along all of these cars and then jumping and and flying and like doing flips.
通过高度集中注意力，几乎可以切换到以视觉想象为主，它开始更完整地取代我所看到的现实景象。
And by focusing really intensely, it's almost like I can switch to primarily the visualization and it can start to replace what I'm seeing more fully.
嗯。
Yeah.
你总能分辨出那是投影而非现实吗？
And you can always tell that it's a projection and not reality?
是的。
Yeah.
我能分辨出那是投影。
I can tell it's a projection.
但他说到某个时刻，这种区分开始变得模糊了。
But at a certain point, he said that started to slip.
我提前一年高中毕业，当时并不太想去上大学。
I graduated high school a year early, and I didn't really want to go off into university.
所以我最终搬到了西雅图。
So I ended up moving to Seattle.
我非常渴望去一个思想更开放、科技产业发达的地方，因为我对计算机编程很感兴趣。
I was really wanting to be somewhere more open minded where the tech industry was prominent because I am into computer programming.
但他的第一份工作是在Dollar Tree（一元店）。
But the first job he got was at the Dollar Tree.
在别人家沙发上借宿了一段时间。
Couch surfed for a while.
几个月后，情况并不顺利。
And a few months in, it wasn't going great.
是啊。
Yeah.
我当时睡在别人地下室洗衣间里的一张床上。
I was I was sleeping in a bed in someone's laundry room in their basement.
这感觉就像被生活边缘化，极度渴望找到某种解脱。
So it was very much just like being on the sidelines of life, really badly wanting to find some kind of escape.
有一天，他坐在房间里突然有了个主意。
One day, he's sitting in his room and he has this idea.
我记得我有几枚硬币。
I remember I I had these coins.
他随手捡起身边的两枚10美分硬币，决定和自己玩个小游戏。
He picks up 2 dimes he has lying around, and he decides he's gonna play a little game with himself.
同时抛掷两枚硬币，试图让它们以相同的方式落地。
Flipping both coins, trying to get them to land the same way.
他把硬币抛向空中，低头一看——两枚硬币的朝向完全一致。
He flips them in the air, looks down at the coins, and they're both the same.
要么都是正面，要么都是反面。
They're both heads or tails.
具体是哪面他已经记不清了。
He doesn't remember which.
然后他又抛了一次硬币。
And then he flips them again.
它们又落得相同。
They land the same.
他再试一次，结果还是一样。
He does it again The same.
我一次又一次地抛掷着。
I I was flipping over and over again.
他开始相信自己能控制硬币的落向。
And he starts to believe that he can control them.
我能让它们按照我的意愿落下。
That I could make them land on whatever I wanted them to.
就像用他的意念控制一样。
Like using his mind.
如果我想让它们都正面朝上，它们就会正面朝上。
If I wanted them to both land heads up, then they would land heads up.
如果我想让它们反面朝上，它们就会反面朝上。
If I wanted them to land heads down, they would land heads down.
于是他抛掷硬币并暗自心想。
So he'd flip the coins and think to himself.
正面朝上。
Heads up.
然后你会看到它们都是
And you'd see they were both
正面朝上。
Heads up.
再来一次。
Do it again.
反面朝上。
Heads down.
然后它们都会
And they'd both be
反面朝下。
Heads down.
正面朝上。
Heads up.
我记得当时感觉像是反面朝下。
I remember feeling like Heads down.
这就像某种超能力。
It was some superpower.
正面朝上。
Heads up.
反面朝下。
Heads down.
正面朝上。
Heads up.
德里克说接下来发生的事情有些模糊了。
Derek says what happened next gets kind of foggy.
遗憾的是，我对那晚的记忆所剩无几。
Unfortunately, I don't I don't remember much from the night.
我对精神错乱期间的记忆很模糊。
I don't remember much from the psychosis.
但他现在知道，当他翻转那些硬币时
But he now knows that as he was flipping those coins
每当硬币落地，我就会把自己希望看到的样子投射到它们上面。
Whenever they would land, I would project onto them whatever I wanted them to look like.
所以如果我想要硬币正面朝上，我就会看到它们正面朝上。
So I would see them heads up if I wanted them to be heads up.
但它们是否真的正面朝上，我其实并不确定。
But whether or not they were really heads up, I don't really know.
我明白了。
I see.
所以你逐渐无法区分想象与现实了。
So you stopped being able to tell the difference between an imagination and reality.
是的。
Yeah.
基本上是这样。
Basically.
然后那天晚上某个时候
And at some point later that night
我说不清具体时间，但当时天已经黑了。
I couldn't tell you what time it was, but it was dark.
德雷克的室友们把他赶了出去。
Derek's roommates kicked him out.
你知道的，我并没有伤害任何人。
You know, I wasn't hurting anyone.
我没有任何危害性行为之类的。
I I wasn't harmful or anything like that.
他们只是不知道该怎么处理我，而且他们不想——不想承担这个责任，因为他们没法送我去医院或采取其他措施。
They just didn't know what to do with me, and they didn't want to they didn't want it to be their responsibility because they couldn't get me to go to the hospital or anything.
德里克整夜游荡，最终实际上在街头生活了好几年。
Derek wandered around all night and actually ended up living on the street for several years.
哇。
Wow.
他最终得到了诊断，是精神分裂症，并为此开始服药治疗。
He does eventually get a diagnosis, schizophrenia, and he he gets on medication for that.
他说情况有所好转，但有时仍会经历精神病发作。
And he says that things are better, but he still sometimes experiences psychotic episodes.
过度想象是精神分裂症的常见症状吗？
Is is the hyperphantasia a common symptom of schizophrenia?
还是说
Or Or
像是常见的共病现象？
like common co occurrence?
对。
Yeah.
根据神经科学家乔尔·皮尔逊的说法
So according to neuroscientist Joel Pearson
你会发现非常强烈的意象与精神分裂症之间存在这种联系。
You see this link between very strong imagery and schizophrenia.
它们似乎确实存在相关性。
They do seem to be correlated.
而且不仅仅局限于精神分裂症。
And it's it's not just schizophrenia.
这个范围更广。
It broadens beyond that.
这位是临床心理学家兼神经科学家艾米丽·霍姆斯。
This is clinical psychologist and neuroscientist Emily Holmes.
那些倾向于图像思维的人可能会稍微更容易焦虑。
People who are highly disposed to thinking images may be slightly more anxious.
她提到了某些焦虑障碍，比如恐惧症。
She brought up certain anxiety disorders, things like phobias.
例如，如果你害怕蜘蛛，你可能会在脑海中浮现出长着巨大獠牙的蜘蛛片段。
For example, if you were afraid of spiders, you might experience bits of imagery of spiders with terribly big teeth and fangs.
而且也许
And also Perhaps the
典型病症是创伤后应激障碍，患者会反复生动地回忆过去经历的创伤事件。
hallmark disorder is post traumatic stress disorder in which people relive vivid mental images of of events that have been traumatic in the past.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当然，拥有强烈的意象能力并不意味着你会患上这些疾病，反之亦然。
Now, of course, having strong imagery doesn't mean you're gonna have any of these disorders, or not having it doesn't protect you from them.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
但似乎能在脑海中形成非常生动画面的人确实更容易出现这些症状。
But it does seem that being able to make really vivid pictures in your mind makes them more likely.
躺在床上，回想起你在三年级或八年级时说过的蠢话，或者被欺负的那些时刻。
Laying in bed and remembering stupid stuff you said when you were, like, in third grade or eighth grade or, you know, times you were bullied.
与我交谈过的那些拥有超强想象力的人，他们也告诉我，心理意象实际上以其他方式让他们的生活变得更加困难。
The people with hyperphantasia that I spoke to, they also told me about these other ways that mental imagery actually makes their life harder.
很难听那些新闻，比如战争爆发时，大规模枪击事件发生时，还有泰国那些男孩被困在矿井里的时候。
Very difficult to listen to news where, you know, there's a war going on, you know, when there's a mass shooting, when the the boys were trapped in the mine in Thailand.
就好像我自己也在矿井里，听着水滴落的声音，掉进下面的水里，那些男孩紧张的样子，他们的呼吸声，潮湿的环境，任何人的痛苦，我都无法不去想象。
Like, I am, like, in the mine, you know, it's just like sound of the water dripping off and and falling into water below and like the boys being stressed and their breathing and the humidity, like anybody suffering at all, I cannot not see it.
我能想象出被人大声呵斥的场景。
I can visualize, you know, being yelled at.
我能看到每个人脸上的表情。
I can see the looks on everyone's faces.
我的肌肉会绷紧。
My muscles will tense up.
我想小时候的我更能活在当下，那时还没有积累一层又一层的创伤。
I think when I was a child, I think I was a little bit more in the moment before before I had stacked up layers and layers of trauma.
所以
So
无论是回顾PTSD般的创伤还是焦虑地展望未来，比如对潜在担忧的想象，画面感实在太强了，简直能激起身体的情绪反应。
whether it's looking back in sort of like PTSD or looking forward in anxiety, like a potential worry, like a it it's just so visual that it it it kinda like drums up the body's emotional.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
想象确实能放大情绪。
Like, imagery can really turn up emotions.
确实如此。
I it is.
我是说，这就像
I mean, it's like
这完全是福祸相依，或者说天赋的馈赠总有代价。
it's the whole blessing and a curse or like a gift, but not without a cost.
就像你获得了一个逃生舱口。
Like, you get an escape hatch.
就像德里克可以直接飞向太空。
Like, Derek can just fly off into space.
是啊。
Yeah.
这可以是一份礼物，但听起来你有时会遭遇这些萦绕不去的困扰，让你无法逃脱。
And that can be a gift, but then it sounds like you get this sometimes these hauntings that then you can't escape.
嗯，而且这某种程度上与控制有关。
Well, and that it's kind of about control.
如果你能掌控它，这就是一种惊人的超能力。
Like, if you can control this, this is an amazing superpower.
但如果它控制了你
But if it controls you
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
你就是这个，是的。
You're that's this is Yeah.
太可怕了。
Terrifying.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
实际上，艾米莉的工作之一就是教人们如何掌握这种控制力。
And actually, like, part of what Emily does is teach people how to gain some of this control.
以蜘蛛为例，你可以把它缩小或变成绿色，然后推开它，让它看起来更远，就像字面上视觉上的那样。
So if we take the spider example, you could shrink or turn it green and push it away like it's more distant, like literally, visually.
这是一种展示'我在控制你，而不是你控制我，而且你并非真实存在'的方式。
And it's a way of showing I'm controlling you, you're not controlling me, and you're not real.
哇。
Wow.
哇。
Wow.
她就像是现实生活中的X教授，教导X战警如何控制他们的超能力。
It's like she's like the real life, you know, professor Xavier teaching the X Men how to control their powers.
这太酷了。
That's so cool.
那你呢？
But what about you?
你还想要意象训练吗？
Do you still want imagery?
说实话，经过我所有的报道后，我不需要了。
I mean, after all my reporting, honestly, no.
真的吗？
Really?
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，我完全没有这方面的实践经验。
I mean, I've I have no practice with it.
感觉那可能会变成一场我无法摆脱的糟糕旅程。
I feel like it could be kind of a bad trip that I, like, can't get out of.
那如果你能稍微体验一点点呢？
Well, what if you could just get, like, a little bit?
嗯。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不过，你知道吗，我越想越觉得，我的内心就像一片纯净空旷的空间。
Although, you know, the more I've been thinking about it, the more I'm like, I just have such a clean, empty space inside of me.
哦，所以这不是害怕拥有那些照片。
Oh, so it's like it's not the fear of having the pictures.
更像是欣赏
It's like appreciating
没有它们的状态。
Not having them.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
比如，我...我不会像你那样看待诗歌，也不会以那种丰富的感官方式体验我的记忆。
Like, I I am not gonna see poetry the way you see poetry or, you know, experience my memories in some sort of, like, rich sensory way.
但我确实有冥想练习，当时我就想，哇。
But, like, I do have a meditation practice, and I was like, woah.
就像，如果你处理的不仅仅是文字和想法，还有实际的图像，那么安静中蕴含的东西要多得多。
Like, there's so much more to quiet if you're dealing not just with words and I like, ideas, but actually, like, images.
对。
Right.
有
There's
还有更多东西需要从那里清扫出去。
more stuff to sweep out of there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我觉得我很好。
So I think I'm good.
你对自己现在的状态很满意。
You're good with where you are.
你已经通过报告的方式摆脱了欲望。
You reported your way out of lust.
你当时其实是，我不想要这个。
You were like, actually, I don't want it.
但超越个人层面，我真的认为世界存在多样性是件好事，你知道，有这么多不同的大脑以各种方式思考。
But also just beyond myself, I I really do think it's a good thing for the world that there's a spectrum and, you know, there's all these different brains thinking in all these different ways.
你知道吗？
You know?
但这种多样性也意味着我们某种程度上更孤立于自己的思维中。
But there's also a kind of like like the diversity means we're more, like, marooned in our own heads a little bit.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如有本小说你会很喜欢，而我却会看着它们。
Like, where there are there's a novel that you'll love and I'll, like, look at them.
我就，我甚至都没法，就像，我根本...
I'm like, I haven't like, I just I can't even, like, I don't
连这段关于多余灌木的描述都读不下去
even read this description of a redundant bush.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
或者甚至一段记忆。
Or or even a memory.
就像，我们明明同时同地经历了同一件事。
Like, it's like we were both in the same place at the same time, experienced the same thing.
一年后再谈起时，却发现我们的记忆完全不同。
And then a year later, we're talking about it and it's like, we remember it in a totally different way.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就像，这其中确实有些令人伤感的地方。
Like, which is there's there is something sad about that.
是啊。
And that Yeah.
这很可能导致了大量的沟通不畅和误解。
Probably leads to like so much miscommunication and misunderstanding.
还有言外之意。
And connotation.
嗯。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
你知道，就是
You know, it's
就像在问，你为什么对那件事如此耿耿于怀？
like being like, why are you so obsessive about this thing that happened?
就像是
It's like
为什么不能
Why can't
你看到这个吗？
you see this?
确实如此。
Exactly.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为对于那个问题，我们都需要更好地理解，我们的大脑运作方式有多么不同。
I think for that problem, it's like we all just need to understand better, I think, just how differently our brains work.
对。
Right.
等等。
Wait.
我能给你们再放最后一段吗？
Can can I play you guys one last thing?
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
当然可以。
Of course.
来吧。
Go for it.
好的。
Okay.
所以，你们知道，我刚才在谈论冥想。
So, you you know, I was just talking about meditating.
这是我很喜欢做的事。
It's something I love to do.
但当我与德里克交谈时，就是那个有着超级强烈视觉想象的人，我问他喜欢做什么，比如他有什么娱乐活动。
But when I was talking to Derek, the guy with that super intense imagery, I asked him what he likes to do, like what he does for fun.
我只是想和你们分享一下。
And I just need to share it with you.
我也练习重金属嘶吼唱法，纯粹为了好玩。
I also practice harsh metal vocals just for fun.
有人建议我应该尝试加入乐队，但我觉得那并不是我的目标。
People have told me I should try and get into a band, but I don't think that's really my goal or anything.
什么是重金属嘶吼唱法？
What is harsh metal vocals?
你想听个例子吗？
Do you want an example?
好啊。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
准备好你的耳膜。
Prepare your eardrums.
好了。
Okay.
哇哦。
Woah.
或者
Or
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
本期节目由辛杜·尼亚纳·桑班丹报道并制作。
This episode was reported and produced by Sindhu Nyana Sambandan.
哟。
Yo.
在安妮·麦克尤恩的协助下，由波普·波普·波普·沃尔特斯编辑。
With help from Annie McEwen and edited by Pop Pop Pop Pop Walters.
混音由杰里米·布鲁姆和穆里埃特·瓦克斯协助完成。
Mixing help from Jeremy Bloom and Murriet Wax.
事实核查由娜塔莉·米德尔顿负责。
Fact Tucking by Natalie Middleton.
特别感谢金·纳德法内·彼得森、内森·皮尔布姆、莉齐·皮博迪、克里斯汀·林恩、乔·韦德曼。
Special thanks to Kim Naderfane Peterson, Nathan Peerboom, Lizzie Peabody, Kristen Lynn, Joe Weidman.
以及马克·纳克拉、布莱恩·拉德克利夫和安德鲁·利兰。
Mark Nacla, Brian Radcliffe, and Andrew Leland.
下次见。
Catch you next time.
向所有重金属乐迷致歉。
And sorry to every heavy metal enthusiast.
真是万分抱歉。
It's a big sorrys.
很快再见。
Catch you soon.
嗨。
Hi.
我是Rianne，我
I'm Rianne, and I'm
来自爱尔兰多尼戈尔。
from Donegal in Ireland.
以下是工作人员名单。
And here are the staff credits.
Babyolab由Jad Abounrad创建，由Sorey Neuter编辑。
Babyolab was created by Jad Abounrad and is edited by Sorey Neuter.
Lulu Miller和Latif Nasser是我们的联合主持人。
Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts.
Drinkeef是我们的音效设计总监。
Drinkeef is our director of sound design.
我们的团队成员包括Simon Adler、Jeremy Bloom、Becca Bressler、Biketti Foster Keyes、W。
Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Biketti Foster Keyes, W.
哈里·福图纳、大卫·加布尔、玛丽亚·帕斯·古铁雷斯、辛杜·纳·尼桑巴丹、马特·基尔蒂、安妮·麦克尤恩、亚历克斯·尼森、萨鲁·卡里、瓦伦蒂娜·鲍尔斯、莎拉·桑德巴赫、阿里安·瓦克、帕特·沃尔特斯和莫莉·韦伯斯特。
Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Na Nisambadan, Matt Keelty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Saru Kari, Valentina Powers, Sarah Sandbach, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster.
我们的事实核查员是黛安·凯利、艾米丽·克鲁格和娜塔莉·米德尔顿。
Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Kruger, Natalie Middleton.
嗨。
Hi.
我是杰里迈亚·巴尔巴，来自加利福尼亚州旧金山的来电。
This is Jeremiah Barba, and I'm calling from San Francisco, California.
《Radiolab》科学节目的领导力支持由戈登与贝蒂·摩尔基金会、科学沙盒、西蒙斯基金会倡议及约翰·坦普尔顿基金会提供。
Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, Simon Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation.
《Radiolab》的基础性支持由阿尔弗雷德·P·
Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P.
斯隆基金会提供。
Sloan Foundation.
自WNYC电台1924年首次开播以来，我们始终致力于创作世界所需的优质内容。
Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs.
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In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all.
如需联系或了解更多信息，请访问sponsorship.wnyc.org。
To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.
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