理查德·布兰森：先说好，之后再想办法

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我们不会永远活着，所以不妨全心全意地投入生活。

We don't live forever, and we might as well throw ourselves wholeheartedly into our lives.

如果有人提前离开，至少我们已经过上了非常充实的人生。

And if one ended up going earlier, at least we've lived very, very full lives.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是亚当·格兰特。

It's Adam Grant.

欢迎回到《重新思考》，我是TED音频合集旗下探讨人类行为科学的播客。

Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective.

我是一名组织心理学家，将带你们走进那些有趣人物的内心，探索新的想法和思维方式。

I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

我今天的嘉宾是维珍集团的创始人理查德·布兰森爵士。

My guest today is Sir Richard Branson, founder of The Virgin Group.

他创立了400多家企业，涵盖音乐、广播、移动通信，到航空、铁路、邮轮和太空旅游。

He's built more than 400 businesses, from music, radio and mobile to airlines, rail, cruise and space tourism.

在空闲时间，理查德一直是一位热情的慈善家，积极倡导可持续发展和人权。

In his spare time, Richard's been a passionate philanthropist and an advocate for sustainability and human rights.

自然，他还曾打破过热气球和风筝冲浪的世界纪录。

Naturally, he's also broken world records in hot air ballooning and kite surfing.

我认为大多数人追求的是乐趣。

I think most people want fun.

他们希望享受生活。

They want to enjoy themselves.

他们希望人们能保持人性。

They want people to be human.

几年前，当我参与理查德家族主办的Strive耐力挑战赛以支持教育时，我亲眼见证了他充满人性的一面。

I got to see Richard being human a few years ago when we spent a week doing Strive, an endurance challenge his family leads to support education.

我的孩子们组织这些极具挑战性的旅行，包括极限骑行、徒步和登山，还会与一群有趣的人同行。

My kids organize these extremely challenging trips, where it's extreme biking and hiking and climbing of mountains and with fascinating groups of people.

在每次旅行中，我们都会就教育改革进行讨论。

And we do talks on each of these trips about reforming education.

理查德推出了一本新有声书，名为《失去与找回我的维珍》，讲述了他的人生故事，并提供了大量关于创业、冒险和领导力的宝贵经验，这些也是我们今天对话的主题。

Richard has a new audiobook out called Losing and Finding My Virginity, which tells his life story and offers a wealth of lessons about entrepreneurship, risk taking and leadership, which are some of the themes of our conversation today.

好吧，我们开始吧。

Okay, let's give it a go.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你找了个不错的配音演员。

You've hired quite a good voice double.

哦，你是想和真正的理查德谈谈，

Oh, you wanted to talk to the real Richard,

是吗？

did you?

是的。

I did.

我本希望他能出现。

I was hoping he would show up.

他在

He's in the

隔壁房间。

room next door.

等一下。

Hang on.

我去把他叫来。

Let me just go and get him.

等一秒。

One second.

他其实不想跟语音替身说话。

He actually doesn't want to talk to the voice double.

他想和理查德谈谈。

He wants to talk to Richard.

他没下楼吧？

He hasn't gone downstairs, has he?

谢谢。

Thank you.

我准备了一整套测验，来确认你是不是真正的你。

I have a whole quiz prepared to find out if it's the real you.

嗨。

Hi.

那是谁？

Who's that?

亚当？

Adam?

是他。

It is.

AG：你好，我是理查德。

AG: Hi, it's Richard here.

很高兴和你交谈。

Good to talk to you.

很高兴你能来。

So glad you could make it.

我想我们第一次见面大概是十年前，当时我震惊了。

We met, I guess, the first time about ten years ago, and I was stunned.

我完全没有料到你其实相当害羞。

I was unprepared for the fact that you're actually pretty shy.

我很好奇为什么会这样。

And I was curious about why.

我年轻时非常害羞，记得我第一次做电台采访的时候。

I was so shy when I was young that I remember the first time I ever did a radio interview.

采访者寄给了我两盘磁带。

The interviewer sent me two tapes.

其中一盘磁带比另一盘长。

One tape was longer than the other.

更长的那盘磁带全是主持人从访谈中剪掉的‘呃’和‘嗯’之类的停顿。

The tape that was longer than the other was all the 'urrs and nums' that he cut out of the interview.

而另一盘较短的磁带听起来非常流畅优雅。

And he left a much shorter tape that sounded very eloquent.

我母亲曾试图说，害羞是一种自私的表现，因此要走上舞台表演时多为他人着想，少想自己，这样就能帮助你克服害羞。

My mother tried to say that shyness was a form of selfishness, and therefore get up on stage and perform and think of other people and don't think of yourself, and that should help you out of your shyness.

随着时间推移，我认为我已经很大程度上克服了这一点。

And in time, I think I've largely overcome it.

当心理学家研究害羞时，他们常常发现它源于对负面社会评价的恐惧，担心陌生人会评判你。

When psychologists study shyness, they often find that it it stems from a fear of negative social evaluation, being worried that strangers are gonna judge you.

看来你小时候确实有充分的理由担心别人会如何评判你。

And it seems you had good reason growing up to be concerned about how people would judge you.

跟我聊聊你早年与阅读障碍抗争的经历吧。

Talk to me a little bit about your early struggles with dyslexia.

首先，给那些在发音和拼写上有困难的人起这样一个极其古怪的名字。

So, I mean, first of all, a most bizarre name for people who have difficulty pronouncing and spelling things.

但不管怎样，当我年轻的时候，根本不存在‘阅读障碍’这个说法。

But anyway, dyslexia was something that didn't exist when I was young.

任何有阅读障碍的人，在学校里都被认为是有点笨。

Anybody who was dyslexic was just seen as slightly stupid at school.

你会坐在教室后面，实际上根本不会去听黑板上讲的内容。

And you'd sit at the back of the class, and you'd be doing anything really but listening to what was going on in the blackboard.

所以，传统的课堂教育对我来说根本没用。

And so, conventional classes just passed me by.

15岁的时候，我决定退学，创办一份杂志，反对学校体制，也反对越南战争。

And at age 15, I decided to quit school and start a magazine to campaign against the school system and to campaign against the Vietnamese war.

我发现，通过走出校园、投身于自己感兴趣的事情，我很大程度上克服了阅读障碍。

And I found that the education I got from being out in the real world and doing things that I was interested in, I largely overcame my dyslexia.

如果我有机会和任何阅读障碍者，或是他们的父母交谈，我都会鼓励他们专注于自己热爱的事情，其余的迟早会跟上。

And if I'm ever talking to somebody who's dyslexic, or a parent of somebody who's dyslexic, I'll just try to encourage them to concentrate on the things that you love, and the rest will catch up in time.

别太担心这个。

Don't worry too much about it.

我认为大量的企业家都有阅读障碍、是阅读障碍患者，或者有注意力缺陷多动障碍。

I think an enormous amount of entrepreneurs were dyslexic, are dyslexic, or have ADHD.

我认为这其中一部分是试图克服我们年轻时所经历的困难。

And I think some of that is trying to overcome the struggles that we had when we were younger.

那种困难是什么样的？

What was the struggle like?

不同的人表现出来的方式不一样。

It comes out differently in different people.

50岁时，我参加一次董事会，当一组数据公布时，我问这是好消息还是坏消息，他们用了‘净利润’这个词。

Aged 50, I was doing a board meeting where I asked whether that was good news or bad news when a set of figures were given, and they'd used the word 'net profit'.

那时我已经经营着欧洲最大的私营企业集团，我记得有一位董事把我叫到董事会会议室外面，说：理查德，你分不清净利润和毛利润吧？

By then, I was running the largest group of private companies in Europe, I remember one of the directors took me outside the boardroom and said, you you don't know the difference between net and gross, I think, Richard.

我说：我不太想承认，但你说得对。

And I said, I hate to admit it, that's right.

于是他拿出一张纸，把纸涂成蓝色，然后在纸上放了一个渔网，再把一些鱼放进网里，说：‘这就是你的利润，其余的是你的营业额，那片更大的海洋。’

And so he pulls out a sheet of paper, he colours the paper blue, then he puts a fishing net in it, and then he puts some fish in the net, and he says, 'That's your profit, and the rest is your turnover, the greater ocean.

从那以后，我就总是挂着‘净’这个、‘毛’那个，感到非常得意。

And ever since then, I've been name dropping net this and gross that, and very chuffed.

像这样的小事很奇怪，但当涉及到创造事物，或者确保我们运营最好的航空公司、最好的游轮时，我都能应对自如。

It's strange little things like that, but when it comes to creating things, or making sure that we run the best airline, the best cruise, then I can deal with all that.

当我试图乘热气球环游世界时，有一个操纵杆上贴着大标语：‘此杆专为理查德而设，切勿拉动’——那是将热气球与吊舱分离的操纵杆。

And then when I was trying to balloon around the world, they had a big sign on one lever which said this sign specifically for Richard do not pull' which was the lever that separated the balloon from the capsule.

因此，阅读障碍对不同的人表现方式不同，我认为随着年龄增长，你可以在很大程度上克服它。

So dyslexia for different people comes out in different ways, and you can, to a large extent, overcome it as you get older, I think.

你确实做到了。

Well, you certainly have.

所以，我认为阅读障碍是你童年时期的关键经历之一。

So dyslexia was was one of the, I think, the defining experiences of your childhood.

另一个经历，我认为发生在你五岁时，你父母让你下车，自己找路回家。

Another one, I think happened when you were five years old, when your parents told you to get out of the car and navigate your own way home.

我真想听听你讲这个故事，因为以今天的眼光来看，这简直难以想象。

I'd love to hear you tell that story, because it's honestly hard to imagine in this day and age.

是的。

Yeah.

我的妈妈在今天肯定会因涉嫌虐待儿童而被逮捕。

I mean, my mom would have been arrested today.

但在那个年代，她觉得有权利让孩子们学会自立。

But in those days, felt she had permission to bring her kids up to stand on their own two feet.

所以在这次特定的经历中，我们正要去外婆家，我猜我当时在后座吵闹得有点过分，她就突然停车，打开车门，把我推了出去，说：‘你自己找路过去。’

And so on this particular occasion, we were going to Granny's house, and I suspect I was being a bit noisy in the back of the car, she just stopped the car, opened the door, pushed me out and said, You find your own way there.

那时离目的地还有两三英里，要穿越乡间。

And it was about two or three miles still to go across the country.

我果然迷路了，最后误入了一户农舍，两个多小时后，一位十分惊慌的母亲前来接我。

And I got suitably lost and ended up in somebody's farmhouse, and a rather mortified mother, about two hours later, came to collect me.

但那正是她的处事方式。

But that was very much her approach.

我非常感激我们被抚养长大的方式。

And I'm grateful for the way that we were brought up.

我记得当我创办这本杂志时，在杂志背面写了一句话，大意是：勇敢的人未必长生，但谨慎的人根本不算活着。

I remember when I started the magazine, on the back of the magazine, wrote a quote which said something like, The brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all.

我认为我一直践行着这一信条，从此以后，我幸运地一直遵循它，经历了无数非凡而精彩的体验。

And I think I've lived by that mantra, and I've been lucky enough to live by that mantra ever since, had the most extraordinary, incredible experiences.

这听起来像是你‘管他呢，干就完了’哲学的起源。

It sounds like this is the genesis of your Screw it, let's do it philosophy.

人们都叫我博士。

I'm known as Doctor.

是的，我的做法就是说‘管他呢，干就完了’，然后去试试看。

Yes, and my approach is just to say Screw it, let's do it, and let's give it a try.

这有时给我惹了麻烦，但也让我拥有了丰富而精彩的人生，涉足多个领域，创办了无数事业。

And that's got me into trouble on occasions, but it's resulted in a fascinating life of building many, many, many different ventures in many different areas.

这确实与我最欣赏的你的建议之一完全吻合。

This definitely tracks with one of my favorite pieces of advice from you.

你说过，如果有人给你一个绝佳的机会，但你不确定自己能否胜任，那就先答应下来，之后再学习如何去做。

You said that if somebody offers you an amazing opportunity, but you're not sure you can do it, say yes, then learn how to do it later.

大多数工作，你都可以在岗上几个月内学会。

Most jobs, you can learn on the job in a couple of months.

而且我认为，大多数事情你都可以在几个月内学会。

And most things, I think, you can learn in a couple of months.

是的，所以如果有人给你提供什么机会，总的来说，就直接答应吧。

Yeah, so if you're offered something, by and large, just say yes.

如果你真的不会做，就去快速参加个速成班，学会后再试试。

And if you can't actually do it, go and have a quick crash course and learn how to do it, and then give it a go.

你一直靠招聘人才、让自己周围都是那些愿意即兴学习的人来发展事业。

You've made a career out of hiring people and surrounding yourself with people who have that attitude, who are just willing to learn on the fly.

当你遇到新人时，如何判断他们是否会带来这种态度呢？

How do you gauge that when you're meeting somebody new, whether they're going to bring that to the table?

公司就是一群人。

A company is just a group of people.

因此，我们需要那些真正关心员工的人来经营我们的公司。

And so we need people who genuinely care about the people who work for them to be running our companies.

所以我们不看考试成绩。

And so we don't ask for exam results.

我给你举个例子。

I'll you one example.

我有一群人来英国参加我正在制作的一档电视节目。

I had a bunch of people coming to England for a TV show I was doing.

我派了一位大约85岁、年迈的出租车司机去机场接他们，他们到达我在牛津的家时，那位年迈的出租车司机走进了厨房，而我恰好就是那位出租车司机。

And I sent a fairly elderly taxi driver to the airport, about 85 years old, to pick them up and they arrived at my house in Oxford and the elderly taxi driver came into the kitchen where they all were and I happened to be the elderly taxi driver.

我揭下了贴在脸上的假皮肤。

I ripped off the skin on my face that had been stuck on.

在机场有几个人并不尊重那位年迈的出租车司机，让他搬行李，还因为他的年龄开玩笑。

And there were a couple of people at the airport who didn't care for the elderly taxi driver and made him carry the bags and joked about him because of his age.

总之，他们被送回去了。

Anyway, they got sent home.

那些关心他人、性格出众的人留了下来。

The people who cared about people and had great personality and they stayed on.

其中一个人就是莎拉·布莱克利，她后来创办了Spanx。

One of those people happened to be Sarah Blakely who went on to start Spanx.

她对那位出租车司机特别友善，你可以看出她也会同样善待为她工作的人。

And she'd been particularly kind to the taxi driver, and you could tell that she'd be very kind to people who worked for her as well.

我喜欢这个例子。

I love that example.

这让我作为一名心理学家长期以来所看到的一点：真正的品格考验，在于人们如何对待那些没有权力的人。

It speaks to something I've long seen as a psychologist, which is that the true test of character is how people treat others who lack power.

有很多人擅长讨好上级、欺压下属。

That there are so many people who are great at kissing up and kicking down.

我真正想知道的是，你如何与一个对你毫无帮助的人相处？

And what I really wanna know is, how do you interact with somebody who can do you no good?

我认为这实际上触及了你的一个核心领导原则，理查德。

I think that this actually goes to one of your core leadership principles, Richard.

要把人培训得足够好，好让他们能离开。

It's train people well enough so they can leave.

要对他们足够好，好让他们不想离开。

Treat them well enough so they don't want to.

跟我谈谈，对你来说，善待他人意味着什么？

Talk to me about what treating people well looks like to you.

就是给他们自由，做真实的自己。

It's giving them the freedom to be themselves.

我的意思是，人们喜欢为维珍工作，因为他们被给予了做自己的自由。

I mean, people love working for Virgin because they're given that freedom to be themselves.

我记得有一次走进一场CEO的聚会。

I remember walking into a gathering of CEOs.

那时我是个刚出道的作家。

I was a brand new author.

我觉得自己根本不该在那个房间里。

I felt like I did not belong in the room.

你走过来向我打招呼，说：嗨，我是理查德。

And you walked up to me and introduced yourself, and said, Hi, I'm Richard.

是的，我知道你是谁。

Yes, I know who you are.

但你主动走向房间里地位最低的人，还愿意和他交谈，这真是出乎意料的时刻。

But it was such an unexpected moment of you going to the least powerful person in the room, and being interested in having a conversation.

然后我们围坐在一张桌子旁，那里一定有三十位领导者。

And then we sat around a table, there must have been 30 leaders there.

而你是唯一一个在做笔记的人。

And you were the only one taking notes.

我深深被你对倾听他人、向他人学习的热情所打动。

And I was just struck by how interested you were in listening to other people and learning from them.

我首先非常热爱学习。

I love learning, first of all.

我记得我15岁就离开了学校，所以我一直把人生看作是一场我从未拥有的大学教育。

And I remember I left school at 15, so I've seen life as one long university education that I never had.

我永远无法理解，人们怎么能在和别人开会时不做笔记。

I can never understand how people can have a meeting with somebody and not take notes.

如果你和一群人开会，目的是解决问题却不做笔记，你只能记住会上的两三个事情。

If you're having a meeting with a group of people, you're planning to sort out issues and not take notes, you're only going to remember two or three things from that meeting.

很多时候，一次会议可能会产生二十个想法，当你回到房间后，可能会发现其中一些并不值得跟进。

And quite often from a meeting, you might have a list of 20 ideas that come out of it, and when you go back to your room, you can maybe find that there are some of those that it's not worth following up on.

但也许其中十个、十五个想法是值得跟进的重要点。

But maybe ten, fifteen of those ideas is important to follow-up on.

回到提出这些想法的人那里，给予积极回应或说明你为何不同意，这非常重要。

It's very important to get back to the person who came up with those ideas and either respond positively or say why you disagree.

通过迅速处理所有这些小事情，你就能从一家普通的公司转变为一家卓越的公司。

And by dealing with all those small things quickly, you go from potentially becoming an average company into becoming an exceptional company.

在那里工作的员工会非常感激自己的问题得到了重视和解决。

And the staff who work there are really appreciative that their issues have been dealt with.

这确实与大量证据一致，表明倾听能力在领导力中与表达能力同等重要，而倾听可能是最被低估的领导力技能。

It certainly tracks with a body of evidence suggesting that listening skills are every bit as important as talking skills in leadership, and that listening may be the most underrated leadership skill.

你认为为什么这么少见呢？

Why do you think it's so rare?

也许是因为他们得到了晋升。

Maybe because they get promoted.

人们因为善于表达而获得晋升。

People get promoted by being great talkers.

然后他们因为能够发表鼓舞人心的演讲、提出有说服力的论点而获得大量正面反馈和奖励。

And then they get a lot of positive reinforcement and a lot of reward for their ability to deliver an inspiring speech, to make a persuasive argument.

最终他们渐渐认为，我在团队中的价值就是我的个人魅力。

And they end up kind of thinking that my contribution here is my charisma.

我讲得越多，别人学得越多，却忘了他们自己也需要学习。

And the more I talk, the more other people learn, forgetting that their job is to learn too.

当你听到自己的声音时，你只是在确认自己的想法，因此并没有学到任何新东西。

Hearing your own voice, you know what you think, so you're not learning anything from it.

偶尔，你确实应该表达一下，与他人分享你的想法和所学。

Occasionally, it's good for you to talk to share ideas with other people and share what you've learned.

但当我谈论演讲时，你实际上并没有获得任何东西。

But you're not actually gaining anything when I'm on the subject of presentations.

我最受不了的就是有人说话时，把文字直接贴在PPT后面。

One thing I cannot stand is when somebody's talking and they put their words up behind them in PowerPoints.

我真想疯掉。

I just want to go screaming mad.

人们应该做真实的自己，站起来，像普通人一样与人交流，而不是对着观众说话，甚至更糟的是，对着黑板讲。

People should just be themselves, stand up, chubbish as human beings, and not talk talk to people, or even worse still, talk to the blackboard.

所以，如果你们当中有谁以后见到我，请一定不要带你的PPT演示文稿。

So if you ever come and meet me, any of you out there, please do not bring your PowerPoint presentations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这让我想到你领导风格中另一个独特之处，那就是有趣。

It speaks to something else that that I think is distinctive about your leadership, which is fun.

我觉得你讨厌无聊。

I think I think you're anti boredom.

嗯，大多数人都是讨厌无聊的。

Well, most people are anti boredom.

危险在于，某些人一旦掌权，就会觉得自己必须当老板。

The danger is that certain people, when they get into positions of power, they feel that they have to be the boss.

他们觉得必须打领带。

They feel they have to wear the tie.

他们觉得自己必须穿西装。

They feel they they need the suit.

他们需要与所有为他们工作的人保持一点距离。

They need to be slightly aloof from all the people that are working for them.

我认为这是个大错误。

And that's a big mistake, I think.

上次我在你面前打领带时，我们正在沃顿商学院面对现场观众，你拿起剪刀把我的领带剪掉了。

Well, the last time I made the mistake of wearing a tie in your presence, we were in front of a live audience at Wharton, and you picked up scissors and cut the tie off of me.

这个人有什么不对吗？

Anything wrong with this man?

他系着领带。

He was wearing a tie.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

我们不会允许这种行为

We're not gonna allow that to

所以，理查德，你才来这儿三分钟，就已经破坏宾大的财产了。

So, Richard, you've only been here for three minutes, and you're already defacing Penn property.

那条领带是宾大的。

That was a Penn tie.

谢谢你的配合。

Thank you for that.

女士们、先生们，理查德·布兰森爵士。

Ladies and gentlemen, sir Richard Branson.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我仍然保留着那条领带，我得让你签个名。

I still I still have the tie, and I I have to get you to sign it.

这些不仅仅是宣传噱头。

These are not just publicity stunts.

我记得我们在参加Strive挑战时，你为了逗一小群人笑，直接跳进热水浴缸里做了一个入水动作。

I remember when we were on the Strive Challenge, you ran and did a cannonball into the hot tub just to get a laugh out of a small group.

你为什么要跳进热水浴缸里做入水动作？

Why are you doing a cannonball into a hot tub?

为了让大家微笑，打破僵局。

To make people smile, to break the ice.

我认为，如果你是一家公司的董事长，你就应该第一个穿着全套衣服跳进泳池，然后其他人也会跟着穿着全套衣服下水，大家一起开个盛大的派对。

I think if you're the chairman of a company, you should be the first into the pool fully dressed, and then everybody else can get in the pool fully dressed and everybody can have a great party.

所以，这本质上就是打破僵局。

So it's breaking the ice, basically.

如果你拘谨而不放松，别人也会觉得他们必须同样拘谨。

If you're stuffy and you don't let your hair down, then everybody else feels that they have to be stuffy.

但这可能要追溯到我母亲让我上台表演，既然你擅长心理分析，那就由你来分析我吧。

But it may go back, since you're good at psychoanalyzing people, may go back to my mother telling me to get up on stage and perform, but I'll leave you to analyze me.

我之所以笑是因为有些人根本没头发可放下来。

Well, I'm just laughing at the letting your hair down thing because some of us don't have hair to let down.

我很乐意借你一些。

I'm happy to lend you some.

你确实头发很多，我收下了。

You do have an abundance, I'll take it.

关于打破僵局，我的一些研究发现，当领导者自嘲时，人们更愿意挑战他们，也更愿意挑战自己。

To your point about breaking the ice, I found in some of my research that when leaders laugh at themselves, people are more willing to challenge them, and also more willing to challenge themselves.

你是在传递一个信号：嘿，我不把自己看得那么严肃。

You're signaling, Hey, I don't take myself that seriously.

但我对自己的工作很认真。

I take my work seriously.

最优秀的领导者都是以身作则的人。

The best leaders are people who lead by example.

他们会撸起袖子亲力亲为。

They'll roll up their sleeves.

他们会亲自完成自己要求团队去做的事。

They'll do what they ask their team to do.

如果大家能玩到一块儿去，能互相开玩笑，这种氛围会感染所有人。

If you can have fun, if you can joke with each other, it's infectious.

而且这类状况很多都是自上而下产生的。

And a lot of these things do stem from the top.

有些公司里会发生这样的情况：领导层引入了不合适的人，而这会给整个公司带来极具破坏性的影响。

What can happen in some companies is people bring in the wrong person at the top, and the effect that can have right through the company is very damaging.

我觉得你大概率会第一个站出来说，你出过的坏点子都比大多数人一辈子出过的点子还要多。

I think you'd probably be the first to say that you've had more bad ideas than most people have ideas.

我很好奇你能不能聊聊你曾押注过的最愚蠢的点子，或是你最引以为傲的那次失败经历。

And I wonder if you could talk about some of the dumbest ideas you've bet on, or maybe your proudest failure.

我们最著名的失败是挑战可口可乐。

Our most notable failure was taking on Coca Cola.

哦，这是维珍可乐，没错。

Oh, this is Virgin Cola, sure.

维珍可乐。

Virgin Cola.

在好几年里，我们真的以为能打败可口可乐和百事可乐，后来我们开始进军欧洲。

And for a couple of years, we really thought we were going to take Coke and Pepsi down, and then we started going into Europe.

然后我犯了个错误，开着一辆谢尔曼坦克冲进时代广场，压碎了大量可口可乐和百事可乐的罐子，可乐四处喷溅。

And then I made the mistake of landing with a Sherman tank in Times Square and crushing lots of Coke and Pepsi cans, and cola was squirting everywhere.

接着我们用强力技术升级了时代广场的可口可乐广告牌，并把炮塔对准了它。

And we then power teched up the Coke sign in Times Square and turned the turret on it.

总之，这一切都彻底搞砸了。

Anyway, it all backfired horribly.

所以，这是众多失控项目中的一个。

So that was one of the ones out of quite a few that got away.

这非常有趣。

It was a lot of fun.

这对品牌没有任何损害。

It didn't do the brand any harm.

它让我们学到了一些教训。

It taught us some lessons.

我怀疑主要的教训是：如果你要挑战一个巨头，一定要比他们强得多。

I suspect the main lesson was if you're going to take on a giant, make sure you're much better than them.

但维珍品牌，尤其是在欧洲，即使你失败了也没关系。

But the Virgin brand, particularly in Europe, it doesn't matter too much if you tilt and fail.

人们很喜欢弱者。

People quite like the underdog.

你不想总是一个总是成功的自以为是的人。

You don't want to always be the smart ass that is successful.

所以你只能重新振作，调整自己，再试一次。

And so you just have to pick yourself up, shake yourself down, and try again.

最近，你在航天领域稍微转变了方向。

More recently, you've shifted gears a little bit on spaceflight.

这让我想起你另一句名言：只有傻子才从不改变主意。

And it reminds me of another one of your quotes, which is, only a fool never changes his mind.

我非常想听听你谈谈一般意义上的改变想法，以及你对商业航天的看法是如何演变的。

I'd love to hear you talk about just changing your mind in general, but also what's the evolution of your thinking on commercial spaceflight?

我们接下来的重点将是建造德尔塔级飞船，并将所有精力投入到这一项目中，以便最终拥有一支飞船舰队。

What we're going to be doing is concentrating on building the Delta class of spaceship and put all our energies into that so that we actually then end up with a fleet of spaceships.

然后我认为，随着时间推移，我们能够逐步降低太空旅行的成本。

And then I think we can, in time, start getting the price of space travel down.

这不会立即实现，因为太空探索成本高昂，要走到这一步需要投入大量资金。

It's not gonna happen immediately, because space is expensive, and costs a lot of money to get this far.

但幸运的是，几年前我曾去过太空。

But, you know, I was lucky enough to go to space a couple of years ago.

那是我一生中最非凡的一天，我期待在余生中，以及在下一代的岁月里，与尽可能多的人分享这段经历。

It was the most extraordinary day of my life, and I look forward to sharing that experience with as many people as possible in my lifetime and in my kids' lifetimes in the years to come.

为什么那是你生命中最不平凡的一天？

Why was it the most extraordinary day of your life?

首先，我们为此项目奋斗了二十年。

Well, first of all, we'd spent twenty years working working on this project.

这一路上我们有泪水，也有喜悦。

We'd had tears and and joy along the way.

人们认为，一个人不可能自己建造一艘飞船和母船。

People thought it would be impossible for somebody to build their own spaceship and mothership.

那天凌晨两点，我听到厨房有动静，过去一看，发现埃隆和他的宝宝正在厨房，特意来送我们出发，这对一位同样从事航天事业的人来说非常体贴。

The day started at 2AM in the morning with me hearing noises in the kitchen and going to the kitchen and finding Elon and his baby in the kitchen come to surprise us to see us off, which was very sporting of somebody who's also in the space business.

然后我的孩子们也醒了。

And then my kids got up.

很难具体形容，但那天一整天都像是那种需要掐自己一下才能相信是真的时刻。

It's difficult to put one's fingers on it, but just the whole day was one of those pinch me moment days.

当我们最终进入太空，解开安全带，轻轻飘到飞船顶部，回望我们赖以生存的这颗非凡地球时。

And when we finally got to space, and just being able to unbuckle and then just float up into the top of the spaceship and look back at this extraordinary Earth that we live on.

我记得第二天醒来时眼睛还闭着，心里想：昨天是做梦了吗？

And I remember the next day waking up and my eyes were closed and I just thought, did I dream yesterday?

然后慢慢睁开一只眼睛，意识到：是的，我在新墨西哥，我们真的昨天去了太空。

And then sort of slowly opening one eye and realizing, yes, I'm in New Mexico and yes, we really did go to space yesterday.

你有一天也想去太空，我觉得。

You want to go to space one day, I think.

我吗？

Do I?

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定我是不是想去。

I don't know if I do.

啊，这就对了。

Ah, there we go.

好了。

Alright.

嗯，你是第一个我遇到的不想去太空的人。

Well, you're the first person I've met who doesn't want to go to space.

我觉得那会非常有趣。

I think it would be a lot of fun.

我觉得很难拒绝。

I think it's hard to say no to.

是的。

Yeah.

但上次你劝我做一件我还不确定自己是否准备好的事时，我到现在还没从滑翔伞的阴影中恢复过来。

But I feel like the last time you talked me into doing something I wasn't sure if I was ready to do, I still haven't recovered from paragliding.

每年给自己设定一些挑战是很好的。

It's good to set oneself's challenges every year.

有你同行真是太好了。

And it's been great to have you along.

我从没像那周一样，如此享受这种痛苦。

I don't think I've ever enjoyed suffering quite so much as that week.

骑自行车70公里上山却没用脚套，这真是一次绝佳的挑战体验。

It was a great stretch experience to to bike 70 kilometers up a mountain without toe clips.

哎呀。

Oops.

不。

No.

下次我们会给你安排更长的路程。

We'll make it longer for you next time.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你总是为我着想。

You're always looking out for me.

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Whether you're sending dollars down under, spending pounds in London, or paying freelancers in pesos, you'll get the mid market exchange rate on every transaction.

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条款细则适用。

Ts and Cs apply.

我现在想进入一个快问快答环节。

I wanna I wanna transition to a lightning round now.

我已准备好随时开始。

I I'm all ready to go.

你曾经收到过的最糟糕的职业建议是什么？

What is the worst career advice you ever got?

做你懂的事情。

Do what you know.

你必须专注于你的洋葱。

You must concentrate on your onions.

我认为我大多数成功的业务都来自我完全没有行业经验的领域。

And I think most of my successful businesses were in industries where I had no industry experience at all.

我认为这正是克服心理学家所说的认知固化的绝佳方式，即你被困在一些自己都未曾意识到的假设中。

Which I think is a great way to overcome what psychologists call cognitive entrenchment, where you get trapped in assumptions that you don't even know you're making.

当你以局外人的身份进入一个行业时，就能看到那些被视作理所当然的东西，并对它们提出质疑。

And when you're fresh to an industry from the outside, you get that ability to see what's taken for granted and challenge it.

下次见面时，你可以解释一下什么是认知定势。

When we next meet, you can explain what cognitive entrenchment means.

我觉得我明白了。

Think I've got there.

我觉得你讲得非常到位。

I think you nailed it.

最近有什么事情是你重新思考过或改变主意的吗？

What is something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?

我曾经认为，对一个人的第一印象，可以在见面的前三十秒到六十秒内就形成。

I used to think that the first impressions of a person, could sum up in the first thirty seconds, sixty seconds of meeting them.

从那以后，我意识到自己有多错了。

Since then, I've realized how wrong I was.

也许年轻时，我只是必须快速形成第一印象，得加快节奏。

Maybe when I was younger, I just had to make first impressions, had to move quicker.

但无论如何，我学会了在评判别人之前要给他们更多时间。

But anyway, I've learned you've got to give people longer before you make judgments.

你对几十年后的未来有什么预测？

What is a prediction you have for the the future a couple decades ahead?

二十年后，世界应该会由清洁能源驱动。

Two decades from now, the world should be powered by clean energy.

我们将迎来一个能源成本几乎为零的世界，能源将来自风能、太阳能，可能还有核能。

We're going to have a world where the energy is gonna cost next to nothing, and it'll be powered by wind, solar, possibly nuclear.

希望我们能尽快实现这样的世界，以避免气候变化最严重的影响。

And hopefully, we'll get to that world as quick as possible so that we can avoid the worst effects of of climate change.

我想听个大胆的观点。

I'd love a hot take.

有没有什么你不认同但坚持的非主流观点？

Is there an unpopular opinion you stand by?

我愿意为之付出生命的，也是我一生都在抗争的，就是惩罚吸毒者。

The thing that I would die for, and I spent most of my lifetime fighting, is punishing people for taking drugs.

这堪称我一生中见过最糟糕的事情之一。

It's been one of the worst things that's happened in my lifetime.

过去七十年，禁毒战争造成了无法估量的损害。

The last seventy years, the war on drugs has done untold damage.

毒品问题应该被视为健康问题，而不是刑事问题。

Drugs should be treated as a health problem, not a criminal problem.

我是全球毒品委员会的一员。

Part of something called the Global Drug Commission.

我们会继续努力改变政府对这一问题的态度，警示人们其危险性，同时在人们遇到问题时提供帮助。

And we'll keep fighting to change government's attitudes to this problem, warning people of the dangers, but helping people when they have problems.

你一直积极参与的另一个事业是反对死刑。

Another cause you've been very active on is fighting against the death penalty.

你认为我们应该废除死刑的最重要理由是什么？

What do you think is the most important reason why we should abolish the death penalty?

欧洲已经废除了死刑，但犯罪率并没有因此激增。

Europe abolished the death penalty, and there has not been an explosion of crime as a result.

国家执行死刑是错误的。

It is wrong for the state to be executing people.

说得好。

Well said.

你和纳尔逊·曼德拉关系很亲密。

You were close with Nelson Mandela.

他教给你的最重要的教训是什么？

What was the greatest lesson that he taught you?

宽恕。

Forgiveness.

我认为曼德拉和图图大主教都是非常乐观的人，但他们最大的力量在于宽恕的重要性。

I think Mandela and Archbishop Tutu were wonderfully optimistic people, but their greatest strength was the importance of forgiveness.

通过宽恕南非的白人对种族隔离的罪行，宽恕那些在种族隔离期间犯下暴行的人。

And by forgiving the white person in South Africa for apartheid, for forgiving people who committed atrocities during apartheid.

他们成功地创造了今天南非这个彩虹之国。

They managed to create the rainbow nation that is South Africa today.

因此，我认为宽恕是他们生活中极其重要的一部分。

And so forgiveness, I think, is such an important part of their lives.

你钦佩的领导者是谁？

Who's a leader you admire?

玛丽·罗宾逊是一位非凡的女性。

Mary Robinson is an extraordinary woman.

她多年前曾担任爱尔兰总统。

She was president of Ireland many years ago.

我从未见过任何人如此努力、如此执着地应对世界问题，无论是核裁军、气候变化、妇女权利，还是物种灭绝。

I've never known anybody work so hard and so relentlessly to tackle the problems of the world, whether it's nuclear disarmament, whether it's climate change, whether it's women's rights, whether it's species depredation.

而她做这一切时总是面带微笑，充满幽默感。

And she does it with such such a smile, such good humor.

她会向世界上最有权势的人直言不讳。

And she'll speak the truth to the most powerful people in the world.

他们会倾听她，因为她既温和友善，又极具说服力。

And they'll listen to her because she's she's so pleasant, so lovely, and so forceful.

下一个问题是：在你所有可能冒生命危险去做的事中，为什么选择热气球？

Next question is, of all the things you could have risked your life on, why a hot air balloon?