查理·普斯：《滚石》杂志专访

大家好，我是布莱恩·海厄特，这里是《滚石》音乐频道。

Hey, I'm Brian Hyatt, and this is Rolling Stone Music Now.

今天，我带来了一段与查理·普斯的访谈，他的新专辑《查理》现已发行。

Today, I have an interview I did with Charlie Puth, whose new album Charlie is out now.

查理当然不仅仅是一位流行歌手。

Charlie, of course, is not only a pop star.

他还是一位才华横溢的制作人兼词曲作者，以拥有绝对音感而闻名。

He's an incredibly talented producer songwriter who famously has perfect pitch.

他在TikTok上公开了专辑制作过程，这种媒介运用方式令人惊叹。

He opened up the process to making his album on TikTok, which was an amazing use of that medium.

今天我们深入探讨了《查理》的创作过程、他在艾伦·德杰尼勒斯厂牌的经历、如何共同创作出Kid Laroi和贾斯汀·比伯的热门单曲《Stay》、他对比利·乔和布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的热爱，以及更多内容。

Today, we talked in-depth about the making of Charlie, about his time on Ellen DeGeneres' label, how he co wrote the song Stay that became a huge hit for the kid Leroy and Justin Bieber, his love for Billy Joe and Bruce Springsteen, and a whole lot more.

我只是

I just

你的上张专辑《语音备忘录》对你而言是个重大突破。

Your last album, Voice Notes, was a huge step forward for you.

它获得了广泛好评。

It was really well received.

我个人非常喜欢，但听说你当时只对它有60%的满意度。

I like it a lot, but apparently, you were only 60% happy with it.

这是为什么呢？

Why is that?

原因在于那段时间我的唱片合约年限里，签约的公司里有部分人并不真正支持我完成完整的作品。

The the reason was because it was still during a time in my recording contract years where I was signed to a place that had some people in it that were not really motivated to have me finish a full body of work.

这实际上是在问下一首热门单曲会是什么？

It was really about what's the next hit single?

下一首热门单曲会是什么？

What's the next hit single?

热门单曲。

Hit single.

请来首热门单曲。

Hit single, please.

从未有人真正鼓励我完成一整张专辑。

No one was ever really encouraging me to finish a full body of work.

所以那张专辑里我有好几首热门歌曲，他们对此很满意。

So I had multiple hits on that record and they were happy about that.

但当我给他们看其他所谓的'专辑曲目'时，他们的反应只是'嗯，还行'。

And then when I showed them other album tracks, as they called them, they were like, yeah, cool.

只要能做完就行。

As long as it gets done.

这种态度总是让我有点受伤和刺痛。

So that always kinda hurt and stung a little bit.

当我与他们分道扬镳，回到最初的唱片公司Proper Atlantic Records时，他们对我说的第一件事就是要我专注于制作完整的专辑。

And when I parted ways with them and went back to my original record label, Proper Atlantic Records, first thing they told me was that they wanted me to focus on making the whole body of work.

说实话我当时真的有点惊讶。

And I was actually I was actually taken aback by it a little bit.

我那时并不完全理解，因为过去一直被灌输只做单曲的理念。

I didn't really understand it because I was so manipulated in the past about just putting out singular music.

在我心里，这意味着，哦，你不相信作为艺术家的我能再创佳绩吗？

In my mind, it meant, oh, you don't believe in me as an artist that I'm gonna be able to have another hit?

你只是想要我把专辑发出来？

You just want me to put the album out?

现在听起来可能很疯狂，但我真的很高兴完成了这张专辑并让它问世。

I didn't it sounds crazy now because this is I'm so happy that I accomplished this album and got it done.

但那时候，我就像一只受伤的狗。

But back then, it I I was so I I was like a a a a hurt dog.

这张专辑里有更多吉他元素，而且首次出现了类似洛奇风格的失真吉他声。

There's more guitars and for the first time sort of almost like Rocky distorted guitars on this album.

这是否说明你也感受到了当下音乐潮流的脉搏？

Is that you feeling the zeitgeist a little bit as far as what's popping out there?

是啊。

Yeah.

既是也不是。

Yes and no.

我确实关注着音乐声学世界的最新动态。

I am aware of what's happening in the sonic world of music.

我认为这是我的职责之一。

I think it's part of my job.

但整张专辑的创作源于我将那些我不够重视的元素和不太了解但能给我积极感受的元素相结合。

But this whole record came about from me combining things that I don't really focus on enough and things that I don't really know too much about but give me a positive feeling.

2005年Jimmy Eat World有首歌叫《中间》。

There there was this song by Jimmy Eat World in 2005 called The Middle.

众所周知。

Everybody knows it.

这首歌是D大调中速节奏，在新泽西州的每个电台都能听到。

It's in d major and it's like mid tempo and it was played on every radio station in New Jersey.

我们听过这首歌。

We heard it.

虽然我从来不是Jimmy Eat World的粉丝，但我清楚记得第一次听到这首歌时的场景。

And it I I was never like a Jimmy Eat World fan, but I know exactly where I was when I heard that song the first time.

当时我在新泽西州拉姆森的Farsdale中学，准备下午两点半左右去商场——大概是两点钟。

I was at Farsdale Middle School in Rumson, New Jersey, and I was going to the mall after at two around 02:30, at 02:00.

当这首歌响起时，妈妈刚把我送到地方，那一刻我感觉自己像个青少年，仿佛迎来了黄金岁月，就像电影开场时看到巴特·辛普森滑滑板的那种氛围。

And that song came on and my mom dropped me off and it just I felt like a teenager and I felt like these were, like, my golden years and it felt like the beginning of like a movie where like you see Bart Simpson skateboarding or something like that.

不知道这样描述能否让你想象出那个画面。

I don't know if that make you just paint that picture.

我记得当时告诉自己，总有一天我要做一张摇滚专辑——虽然至今没实现，可能永远也不会，但我一定要抓住那种音乐带给我的感觉，于是创作了专辑《Charlie》里的第二首歌《Charlie Be Quiet》。

And I remember telling myself, I'm I'll I I feel like I'll make like a rock record one day, but I I haven't and I don't think I ever will make a rock record, but I certainly am going to capture feelings that a record like that gave me and make a song like Charlie Be Quiet, which is track two on my album Charlie.

《Charlie Be Quiet》。

Charlie Be Quiet.

别写歌了。

Don't make a song.

你得

You got

向主祈祷。

to the Lord.

然后还有一点香草蘸酱。

Then there's a little vanilla dip.

了解你的爱。

Known your love.

她已经搭车离开了。

She's got a ride away.

虽然听起来完全不像Jimmy Eat World的《the middle》，但我希望当某个八年级生偶然听到我的专辑时，能获得同样的怀旧感——那种‘我正活在当下，深知明天永远不会像今天这样重现’的感觉。

And it sounds nothing like Jimmy Eat World the middle, but it hopefully will give some other eighth grader that happens to listen to my album that same nostalgic, I'm in this moment feeling like I know that tomorrow, like today is never gonna happen again kind of feeling.

我知道或许他们通过听《Charlie Be Quiet》能获得那种感受。

I know that maybe they'll get that feeling by listening to Charlie Be Quiet.

并不是说我在把自己的歌和摇滚歌曲比较，只是我在创作这张专辑时并没有刻意听任何特定类型的音乐。

Not that I'm comparing my song to a rock song, but I just I I I wasn't listening to any particular genre of music when I made this album.

我试图捕捉那些伴随我成长的音乐带给我的感觉。

I tried to encapsulate the feeling that I had from listening to music that I grew up with.

这番冗长的解释其实就想说：我完全是因为受到那些音乐的启发才创作了这张专辑。

That was a long winded explanation of I just am very I I made an album based off music I was inspired by.

我觉得《I Like Her》这首歌给我的感觉很有Weezer的风格，这在副歌部分尤其出乎意料。

I don't think that I Like Her, to me, almost has a Weezer vibe, which was very unexpected in the chorus.

不知道你是否也有同感，是否注意到了这一点。

I don't know if you felt that at all, if you were aware of that.

是的。

Yeah.

确实确实有点Weezer的影子，甚至有点像《Penny Lane》那种感觉——就像披头士在每句歌词间穿插和弦进行的方式，比如你听《Blackbird》就能体会到。

It definitely definitely was hinted at Weezer a little bit and almost like a like a Penny Lane kind of situation where I love how the Beatles put chord progressions on every other lyric and they're almost like a you listen to like Blackbird, for example.

有只黑鸟一二和弦和弦和弦和弦。

There's a Blackbird one two chord chord chord chord.

黑鸟。

Blackbird.

这首歌那部分的和弦比歌词还多。

There's more chords than there are lyrics at that part of the song.

这就是为什么我想做，因为我不喜欢那个标题太长的。

That's why I wanted to do for I don't think that I like her with the long title.

黑鸟飞吧。

Blackbird fly.

黑鸟飞吧。

Blackbird fly.

我觉得你有点迎合了Weezer的风格。

I feel like you kind of played into the Weezer thing.

那时我就很确定你是故意的，因为你加入的那些小细节听起来像Rivers Cuomo的吉他填充。

That's when I was pretty sure you were aware of it because you're putting in little things that sounded like a Rivers Cuomo guitar fill.

它们可能是用键盘弹的，也可能是人声，但这些装饰音与对位旋律相映成趣。

They might have been played on keyboard or they might have been vocal, but these little frills against counter melodies.

有趣的是，我对Rivers Cuomo和Weezer其实了解不多。

What's funny is that I don't even really know that much about Rivers Cuomo and about Weezer.

我只知道他们在08年出的那些唱片，有首歌是...我连那首歌叫什么都不知道。

I know some of the records they put out put out in in in in o eight, the the one song that goes, I that that I don't even know the name of that song.

我只记得听过它，记得那是2008年，当时我对YouTube上瘾。

I just remember hearing it and I remember it being 2008 and me being addicted to YouTube.

我只记得第一次听到那首歌时我在哪里。

I just remember where I was when I heard that song.

老实说，我其实没怎么听过Weezer乐队的歌，但我在创作那首歌时，潜意识里可能想捕捉那种初次听到Weezer时的感觉。

I never really listened to a lot of Weezer to be honest, but I just I guess when I was making that song, I subconsciously wanted to tap into that feeling of hearing Weezer for the first time.

你

You

键盘弹得很棒，但据我所知你几乎不会弹吉他。

have a lot of keyboard skills, my understanding is you can barely play guitar.

有时你在键盘上假装弹奏，有时你会弹个和弦然后采样再播放。

Sometimes you fake it on keyboards and sometimes you sort of play a chord and then sample it and play it.

你在录制吉他部分时有什么诀窍？

How do what is your trick for for laying down guitars?

既然我们聊到《我不喜欢她》这首歌——还没听过的朋友注意这是第11首曲目——

So for well, since we're talking about I don't think that I like her, track 11 for anyone who hasn't listened yet.

开头的那些拨弦音是用这部iPhone录制的，我只弹了一个拨弦音，就是'嘣嘣'两声。

That little That was played those little beginning plucks were recorded with this iPhone here and it was me playing just one little pluck, the boom boom.

当你在Pro Tools里提高音调时，音长会相应缩短。

And then when you pitch it up in Pro Tools, it kind of shortens it.

所以我用复音模式确保每个音符的时值相同。

So I made sure that some some of the lengths of the notes I was using polyphonic and make sure that the duration of each note was the same.

这样做的时候，当你复制粘贴一堆相同力度的音符，听起来会很有机械感。

And it sounds when you do that, it sounds almost robotic when you copy and paste a bunch of the the same velocity note.

我反复调整音符位置，这种机械感反而让我兴奋，因为我知道吉他手Jan会在上面叠加演奏。

A bunch of times, it was and then I move the notes around And I get almost excited by the roboticness of it because I know that my guitarist, Jan, is going to play on top of it.

我会保留机器人版本以保持其冲击力，但会叠加两三层人性化元素在上面。

And I'm gonna keep the robotic version for the punchiness of it, but the humanness is gonna be layered two, three times over it.

这就是我制作《Attention》的方式，也是我制作《We Don't Talk Anymore》的方式——这是唯一一首直接使用iPhone原声吉他的歌。

And that's how I did Attention and that's how I did We Don't Talk Anymore was the only song where I just used the original guitar off the iPhone sound.

我们不再像从前那样交谈了。

We don't talk anymore like we used to.

现在这已成为这张专辑传奇故事的一部分：你在2019年推出那些单曲时，埃尔顿·约翰告诉你它们不够好。

It's now become sort of a famous part of the narrative of this record that you had those singles in 2019 and Elton John told you they were no good.

那次谈话的背景是什么？

What was the context of that conversation?

你怎么会正好和埃尔顿·约翰聊天，让他决定要粉碎你对这些歌曲的信心？

How did you happen to be talking to Elton John where he decided to, like, break your heart about these songs?

嗯，其实更像是...算不上粉碎。

Well, I it was it was less of a break.

虽然很刺耳，但这是个重要的醒悟。

It it was harsh, but it was important realization.

我一直在自欺欺人，没意识到当时有多少人参与制作其他音乐作品——现在那些人都不在了，曾经有那么多制作人和词曲作者。

I had kind of been in denial about how many people I was working with on some of these other pieces of music and they just no longer there there were so many producers and so many writers.

我为其他艺人制作音乐时也常有多位创作者，但如果是我的个人项目，哪怕一个钢琴音色不对，就感觉不像我了。

I've worked on music where there's a bunch of writers and producers for other artists, but from my project, it just if one piano sound is wrong, it doesn't sound like me.

所以他基本是在告诉我：是的，你的感觉没错。

So he basically told me, yes, you're correct.

你现在合作的人实在太多了。

You are working with way too many people.

你真的需要回归自我，只与少数人合作，因为这样你的音乐才最真实地展现你自己。

You really need to get back to working with yourself and a select few because that's how your music sounds most genuinely you.

我当时真的被震惊了，因为他显然是个传奇人物，但正是他让我确信我需要重新开始。随后疫情爆发，我以为我的巡演艺术家生涯基本结束了。

And I just was taken aback because he's such a legend obviously, but he was the one who affirmed to me that I need to just start over and then the pandemic hit, and I thought my career as a touring artist was pretty much over.

但我以另一种方式为人们表演，转向互联网，打开手机摄像头，在TikTok上发布我在工作室表演的视频，展示歌曲的创作过程。

But I performed for people in a different way, and I turned to the Internet and turned on my phone camera and made TikToks of me performing in my studio, the breaking downness of a song.

是啊。

Yeah.

你确实很自然地适应了TikTok。

You really took very naturally to TikTok.

事实上，我听说你的唱片公司曾让其他艺人参考你的TikTok，告诉他们'你们得学学这样'。

In fact, I heard that your label was kind of sending other artists to your TikTok and being like, you need to be like that.

那只是你自然而然的发挥。

That was just you naturally taking to it.

这种事强求不来。

It can't be really forced.

没错。

Yeah.

比如《Light Switch》，这是那些TikTok视频首次触达大量观众的案例。之所以会拍那个视频，正是因为这首歌与我过去《Attention》《One Call Away》这类作品截然不同。

I mean, Light Switch, the first instance of one of those TikToks reaching a lot of people, Light Switch, the reason why that video was even made is because it was so different from records like Attention and One Call Away and things that I've done in the past.

当时我刚离开前唱片公司，不再依赖他们的认可——而此前我一直活在这种认可体系里。

And having that being that I I left my previous record label situation where I was so dependent on their seal of approval and I felt like I didn't have that anymore.

我感觉自己就像失去了乐器的乐手在空中飘荡。

I felt like I was kind of flying without my instruments.

无意冒犯，但你知道飞行员驾驶飞机时，他们有仪表设备辅助降落。

No pun intended, but, you know, when pilots fly a plane, they have instruments and it helps them land the plane.

我感觉自己像是在驾驶一架上世纪五十年代的飞机。

I felt like I was flying a plane from the nineteen fifties.

就像独自漂泊在海上，突然失去了那个可以倾诉的人。

Like, I was just alone out in the sea and I no longer had my person I run things through anymore.

我打电话给朋友杰夫说：这首歌太奇怪了，我甚至都不...

And I called my friend Jeff and I was like, I don't even this song is so weird.

我完全不知道这能不能成事。

I have no idea if this could ever be a thing.

他说：你为什么不直接告诉大家这首歌是怎么创作的呢？

And he was like, why don't you just tell people how you made the song?

大西洋唱片的杰夫·莱文建议我：用最简单的方式告诉人们这首歌的创作过程。

Jeff was the one Jeff Levin at Atlantic Records was the one who told me, why don't you just tell people how you made the song in a really simple way?

当我提出'如果这首歌这样开头会怎样'时，我是认真的。

And I really meant it when I was like, what if there was a song that started off like this?

我不知道这样好不好。

I don't know if it's any good.

如果开头用这种类似Sade的鼓点...拍摄中途我突然意识到，人们可能会被吸引——因为它的诞生过程如此独特怪异，听起来和我所有作品都截然不同。

If it started off with this these Sade like drum like and then there and then I think mid filming of that, I realized that this I feel like people could gravitate towards this because it's so unique and strange how it all came together and it sounds way more different than anything I've ever done.

当然上传后，网络反响热烈，大家都催我完成这首歌。

And then, of course, I upload it and then I get a giant thumbs up from the internet and they tell me finish this song.

结果我又拖了五个月，然后开始做整张专辑。

And then I dragged it on for five months and started the album.

你说疫情是你整个职业生涯中第一次真正放慢脚步，在此之前你一直处于快进状态。

You said that the pandemic was really the first time that you got to slow down in your whole career, that you were sort of on fast forward the whole time before that.

在那段时间里，你为自己找回了些什么？

What were you able to kind of recover for yourself during that time?

嗯，有件事我一直想说。

Well, something that I've always wanted to say.

我当然不是为了乐评人做音乐，但当我首张专辑被他们贬低说'这是有史以来最烂的音乐'时，我其实认同他们的观点。

I certainly don't make music for critics, but I was agreeing with them when they curbed my first album and they were like, this is the worst music ever.

我当时想，真希望有时间能做张更好的专辑，因为有些歌至今我仍热爱表演，比如《We Don't Talk Anymore》——那种融合暗黑流行、西班牙吉他风的多乐器混搭曲风。

And I'm like, I wish I had time to make a better album because there are certain songs that I still love performing to this day like We Don't Talk Anymore, which is like this dark pop, like Spanish guitar, like hodgepodge of multi instrumentation.

它历经时间考验至今仍不过时。

Like, it was different throughout the time and it still holds up today.

真希望首专里能有11首这样的歌。

I wish I had 11 more of those songs on that first album.

但我们有《See You Again》——自《Lose Yourself》以来最火爆的单曲。

But we had See You Again, the biggest song since Lose Yourself.

那首歌原本根本不该由我来唱。

And I was never supposed to sing that record.

我创作时就是专门写给另一位歌手唱的。

I wrote it specifically for another artist to sing.

然后突然间，我不得不学着在数百万人面前扮演艺人角色。

And then I suddenly had to figure out how to be an artist in front of millions of people.

没有你的日子漫长无比，我的朋友。

It's been a long day without you my friend.

我会告诉你一切

And I'll tell you all about

我当时很老土

And I was corny.

我在摸索自己24岁的意义

I was figuring out how I was 24 years old.

我在思考如何在现场观众面前演唱意味着什么

I was figuring out how what it meant to like, how to sing in front of a live audience.

我从未做过这些事，因为我原以为自己只会待在幕后

I had never done any of this stuff before because I thought I was just gonna be behind the scenes.

所以如果我犯了错请原谅，毕竟当时有数百万双眼睛盯着我

So forgive me if I made some missteps, but I had millions of eyes on me.

通常人们会私下练习这些，录好唱片再向世界展示

Usually, you figure out how to do that stuff in private, make your record, and then present it to the world.

我完全反着来

I did it all backwards.

我忘了...你刚才问什么问题来着？

And I forgot what the what was the question you asked?

我只是...突然闪回过往的战争场景

I just I'm having war flashbacks.

你正接近那个答案

You're heading towards it.

基本意思是，你整个职业生涯都在快进，而疫情是你第一次有机会喘口气跟上节奏

I mean, basically, the idea that you were on fast forward throughout your whole career and that the pandemic was your first chance to kind of like breathe and catch up.

是的。

It was.

那种感觉既怪异又平静，同时也很美妙。

And it felt it felt kind of weird and still and also good at the same time.

我因为频繁乘坐飞机而病了很多次。

I I got sick so many times from flying on so many planes.

但没错，疫情从2020年持续到2022年中旬，那是我第一次真正进入放松状态。

But, yes, the pandemic was the 2020 to 2022, mid twenty twenty two was the first time where I was like in more of a chill mode.

你从中收获了什么？

What did you gain from that?

我获得了新的视角。

I gained perspective.

我差点把这张专辑命名为《与自我对话》，因为我被迫远离人群。

I almost called this album Conversations With Myself because I had in order I I was forced to not be around people.

真的，当时如果想进录音棚和人合作，我们得签免责协议。

I like I literally couldn't like we had to sign waivers if you wanted to go into the studio with people.

我当时就想：去他妈的。

Was like, fuck that.

我决定独自完成所有这些歌的创作和制作，最后只和圈内人比如J Cash一起收尾。

I'm gonna just make all of these songs and produce these songs all myself and finish them off with the people that I or or that that are in my circle like J Cash.

我不太喜欢心理治疗。

I don't really like therapy.

我觉得通过听音乐和自我反思就能解决很多问题。

I think that I can fix a lot of my problems just by listening to music and self reflecting.

我是说，心理治疗，我并不是在逃避治疗。

I mean, therapy, I'm not dodging therapy.

心理治疗对某些人确实有益，但对我来说，我只需坐在钢琴前思考其他实现目标的方式，就解决了一些最大的困境。

Therapy is good for some people, but for me, I just, I've solved some of my greatest debacles by just sitting down at the piano and thinking about an alternate way to accomplish something.

也许未来我会找一位心理治疗师。

Maybe in the future I'll have a therapist.

但现在，这张专辑就是我的治疗。

But for now, this album was my therapy.

我发现了许多关于自己的事情，经历了两次分手。

And I found out a lot about myself and I went through I, you know, I went through two breakups.

一次是感情上的，另一次是事业上的——那个曾与我共同开启职业生涯的人突然离开了我的生活，但随着时间推移，我感觉到他们在我的生活中逐渐淡去。

One romantic and the other one in a business way, someone that I had started my career with was suddenly out of my life, but I felt that they were like less in my life as the years progress after attention.

我曾一度失去了两段我认为对成功至关重要的关系，以及两个我认为需要与之共同成功的人。

And I had I it was a loss at one time of two relationships that I thought I needed to succeed and two people that I thought I needed to succeed with.

当他们离开我时，我找到了方法...抱歉，我只是...这确实有些创伤。

And when when they that they left me, I I figured out a way I realized sorry, I'm just I'm really it's slight trauma.

我意识到自己有能力做很多事，制作专辑就是其中之一，我要独自完成这件事。抱歉，我现在又重温了那段经历。

I realized that I'm capable of a lot of things and making an album is one of them and I'm gonna do this myself and I'm sorry, I'm reliving it right now.

就像，我希望人们听这张专辑时能意识到自己的特别，因为我意识到了自己的特别之处。

It's like, I hope people listen to this album and realize how special they are because I realize how special I was.

我记得你在疫情期间参加新泽西电视慈善演唱会时，是在父母家里。

I remember that when you did that New Jersey TV benefit concert during lockdown, you were in your parents' house.

这是否意味着你又和父母住了一段时间？

Does that mean you spent some time living with your parents again?

是啊。

Yeah.

其中一些歌曲的构思是在我父母家完成的，我对TikTok的热爱也是在那次拍摄后不久在那个房间里开始的。

Some of these songs were conceptualized at my parents' place, and my love of TikTok started in that room shortly after that filming.

坐在那里，仅凭键盘就仿佛回到了起点，这种感觉一定很奇怪吧。

It must have been weird to be sitting there sort of back to where you started just with your keyboard.

那是在他们加州的家，但自从我们从新泽西搬来后，它给了我一种2012年被Interscope唱片公司放弃、离开Ellen DeGeneres的唱片公司后重返校园的相同感觉。

And it was at their house in California, but it like, since we had moved from New Jersey, but it gave me the same feeling of being dropped from Interscope in 2012 and leaving Ellen DeGeneres' record label and going back to school.

那是一种轻微的挫败感，对事情没有按计划发展感到沮丧。

It was a slight feeling of defeat and being bummed out that things didn't work out.

我记得那时候，从伯克利毕业后我搬回父母家住，这简直是音乐人最可怕的噩梦，但我期待着能找到出路。

I remember during that time, I moved back home with my parents after I graduated Berkeley, which is like a musician's worst nightmare, but I was looking forward to figuring things out.

又一次，我独自一人，但我找到了办法。

Again, I was alone and I figured things out.

我采取了这样的态度：好吧，如果我成不了著名歌手，那我就为著名歌手写歌。

And I took the approach of, okay, if I'm not gonna be a famous singer, I will make songs for famous singers.

然后，当然，我写了《See You Again》并最终成为了演唱者。

And then, of course, I wrote See You Again and ended up being the singer.

一切以一种我未曾预料到的方式解决了。

And it all worked out in a way that I didn't think it was going to.

我想，现在是2020年3月、4月，这给了我一种类似大学时搬回父母家的感觉。

And I thought, here I am in '20 in March, April 2020 in a this is giving me a similar vibe of when I moved back to my parents' place at college.

虽然当时没有发生全球疫情，但如果我那时能想出职业规划，现在肯定也能再次做到。

I know it's not a global pandemic wasn't happening, but I if I figured it if I figured it out then what to do with my career, I can certainly do it again.

然后我意识到，好吧。

And the I realized, okay.

那么我错过了什么？

So what am I missing?

我错过了现场表演。

I'm missing performances.

我错过了现场演出。

I'm missing playing live shows.

比如，我的巡演音乐人生涯就此结束了吗？

Like, is my career as a touring musician completely over?

我之所以这么问，是因为我的一些最佳作品都是在走下舞台后创作的。

And the reason why I was asking that is because some of my best songs were made after coming off stage.

回到后台，捕捉那种为上万观众表演的氛围，然后为他们创作明年能表演的精彩作品。

Going backstage and then just encapsulating that vibe of playing for 10,000 people and then making something exciting for them that I could perform next year for them.

这些都不复存在了，所以我想，我得想办法在互联网上实现这一点。

I didn't have that anymore, so I was like, I gotta figure out a way to do that on the internet.

就像我之前说的，我转向了TikTok，开始用不同的方式为粉丝表演。

And like I said before, it was all I turned to TikTok and started performing for my fans in a different way.

说到艾伦，你知道格雷森·蔡斯刚来《滚石》杂志，他在她的厂牌下经历并不愉快。

You know, speaking of Ellen, you know, Grayson Chance just came to Rolling Stone and he didn't have a great experience on her label.

他和她的合作并不愉快。

He didn't have a great experience with her.

你对他所说的话有什么看法？与你的经历相比如何？

What did you think of what he said and how does that compare to your experience?

从没有人用粗鲁来形容艾伦。

Ellen's never been people describe Ellen as rude.

我从未有过这种体验。

I've never experienced that.

也许她喜欢我。

Maybe she likes me.

但我记得接到唱片邀约时真的非常兴奋。

But I remember being really excited when I got offered the record.

我永远记得当时在她的化妆间里，他们问我是否愿意加入他们刚成立的唱片公司。

I'll never forget where I was in her her dressing room, and they asked me if they wanted if I wanted to be part of this new record label they were starting up.

那对我来说是个激动人心的时刻——我同意格雷森的说法，虽然我们经历不同，但确实在首张试听EP制作完成后，所有人都消失了。

So it was a very exciting time for me where I do agree, not that I I we both have different experiences, me versus Grayson, but I do agree with him that nobody was really present after, certainly after the creation of my first demo EP.

之后我就再没收到过任何人的消息。

I didn't really hear from anybody after that.

不是要责怪某个人，但当时在场的所有人，就这么集体消失了。

Not putting any blame just on one person, but from a collective, I all the people that were in that room, I just they just disappeared.

即便如此，我很幸运获得了伯克利奖学金，得以重返校园完成学业。

And but even then, I was fortunate enough to I I got a scholarship to Berkeley, so I was able to fall back on going back to school and finishing school.

现在回想起来仍觉得——真是万幸。

And I was super I even to I look back on that, I'm like, what a relief.

能依靠学业继续深造，我感到无比幸运与感激。

I'm so fortunate and grateful to fall back on school and to continue my education.

虽然唱片计划失败是个重大失误，但我回到马萨诸塞州继续完成了学业。

So it was a real blunder that it didn't work out, but I went back to Massachusetts and continued my education.

所以事情就这样结束了？

So that's how it ended?

你提交了一个演示，然后就这样了

You delivered a demo and every and then just like

我再也没听过那些歌了，也不知道它们到底好不好听。

I never I never never heard those songs again, but I don't know how good they were.

再说，我我我当时只是个YouTube艺人。

Again, I I I wasn't a very I was a YouTube artist.

我不知道...我甚至不觉得自己唱得很好。

I don't know how I I don't think even think I was a very good singer.

现在我也觉得自己唱得一般，但那时候更糟糕。

I still don't think I'm a very good singer, but back then I was rough.

所以我很高兴再也听不到那些歌了。

So I I was happy to not hear those songs anymore.

不过我我我确实同意。

But I I I do agree.

我发布那些歌后，确实没收到什么反馈。

I I didn't really hear from anybody after I put the those songs out.

但我的情况有点不同，因为我很高兴再也没听到那些歌，我知道更好的作品即将到来。

But it was a bit of a different situation for me because I was kinda glad that I didn't hear those songs again because I knew better things were coming.

我知道你刚上过艾伦秀。

I know you were just on Ellen's show.

听起来你好像从没真正谈过这件事，或者私下里谈过。

Doesn't sound like you've ever really talked this through or maybe you have privately.

不。

No.

我在她节目上表演《See You Again》时，这个问题从未真正被提起过。

It's it's it's never really come up when I perform See You Again on her show.

就像，也别在背后说人坏话，因为我相信这世上每个人存在都有其意义。

It's like, also don't talk shit on anybody because I believe everybody in this world is here for a reason.

当我见到她时，感觉不像四年没见，仿佛只过了一年，就是那种‘嘿，见到你真高兴’的感觉。

And when I saw her, it was like, it didn't feel like four years had passed, felt like maybe a year had passed and it was like, oh, hey, great to see you.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我们要谈谈这件事。

So we're gonna talk about this.

我当时就说，太好了。

And I was like, great.

我只会继续向前，不断进步。

I just onward and upward.

你在TikTok上获得了热烈反响，但我觉得那个说‘你是个音乐天才，却只做中等流行音乐’的家伙可能还是让你有点不爽。

You had a great response on TikTok, but I think it also it might have slightly got under your skin where that guy said, you know, that you're a musical genius, but you make, quote, mid pop music.

我的意思是，这挺有意思的。

I mean, it's it's interesting.

就像，我不知道...

Like, I don't know what

那么音乐到底是为谁而作？难道我只该为天才创作音乐吗？

Well, what is what is what is music for is am I supposed to make music for geniuses only?

我甚至都不这么称呼自己。

I'm not even calling myself that.

比如，想象一下只为科学家制作音乐。

Like, imagine just making music for scientists.

烧杯和锅炉的声音。

The sounds of beakers and boilers.

再想象一下，如果你是个厨师，却只给喜欢吃蜗牛的人做饭。

And imagine only make if you're a chef, but you're only gonna make food for people that like snails.

然后你会把你的餐厅命名为蜗牛美食。

And you're you're gonna call your restaurant snail food.

每个去那里的人都别无选择，只能吃法式蜗牛。

And everyone who is gonna go there has no choice but to have escargot.

如果你不喜欢，就他妈的不准在那儿吃饭。

And if you don't like it, you're not allowed to fucking eat there.

这真是个愚蠢又短视的评论。

Like, it's such a stupid myopic comment.

我...我...我制作音乐，你可以有自己的观点。

It's I I I make pot like, have your opinion.

你花时间在我的页面上留言，但我很高兴那个人有那样的观点，因为如果他们不评论，那才是真正更伤我的方式。

You took the time to write on my page, but I'm happy that person had that opinion because if they didn't comment, then that's that's the way they don't realize that would hurt me a lot more.

实际上我得到了他们的反应，这让我非常开心。

I actually got a reaction out of them, which I I I love.

但我做的是流行音乐。

But I'm making pop music.

我正试图撒下渔网，尽可能多地收集听众。

I'm trying to cast my fisher's net and gather as many ears as I can.

所以呢，流行文化可能有点老套。

So with that, it's gonna maybe you know, pop culture is kinda corny.

所以这是不可避免的。

So it's inevitable.

有趣的是，比如《电灯开关》这首歌的前奏其实用了些相当花哨的和弦。

It's funny because actually Light Switch, for example, has some some pretty fancy chords in the intro.

你会在里面加入些降十一度音之类的，把这些元素悄悄塞进去。

You you you tend to slip this some flat eleventh and stuff, you slip that stuff in there.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

因为我喜欢大卫·福斯特，他是制作流行音乐的人，而昆西·琼斯会融入爵士和弦，我形容这些就像昂贵的和弦变化。

Because I love David Foster and that was a guy who makes made pop music and and Quincy Jones slipped in jazz chords and it sounds the the I describe them as like expensive chord changes.

这些和弦带点摩擦音和不协和音，然后解决。

They're chords with a little bit of rubby notes and dissonance and resolving.

尤其在美国音乐中，你每天都能越来越多地听到这种手法。

And especially in American music, you hear it more and more every day.

在史蒂夫·莱西那张非常成功的专辑里就能听到。

You hear in that Steve Lacey record that's done very, very well.

那把吉他弹的可不只是三和弦。

Those aren't just triads on that guitar.

那些音符，你知道的，有种延展性，我不会形容为爵士风格，但比简单的三和弦要复杂得多。

Those are, you know, stretchy kind of, they're it's not I wouldn't describe it as jazzy, but they're more complex than a one three five.

但这正是我不可避免地总会融入音乐中的元素，因为这是我的爵士乐背景使然。

But that's just I'm inevitably going to always put that into my music because that's from my jazz background.

你刚刚翻唱了《纽约之心》。

You just covered New York State of Mind.

看得很享受。

Enjoyed watching that.

有些人喜欢逃离，从邻里间抽身去度假。

Some folks like to get away, take a holiday from the neighborhood.

我觉得自己表现得还行。

I I think I did okay on it.

我回看了录像。

I I watched it back.

感觉就是，呃...

I'm like, ugh.

我在音准上失误了很多次。

I I slipped in pitch a lot.

这个...我只排练过一次。

It's I I had rehearsed it once.

这首歌可不容易唱。

It's not an easy song to sing.

我觉得听起来真的很棒，观众也很喜欢。

I I thought it sounded really good, the crowd loved it.

谢谢。

Thanks.

如果你必须在比利·乔和布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀之间选一个，这可是终极三州难题。

If you had to pick Billy Joe or Bruce Springsteen, the ultimate tri state question.

哦，天啊。

Oh, man.

这。

It's.

我讨厌这个。

I hate that.

为每个人选一个理由。

Make the case for each one.

如果你要选每个人的话。

If you were gonna pick each one.

所以布鲁斯·布鲁斯

So Bruce Bruce

斯普林斯汀，信不信由你，我是在9·11之后才开始听布鲁斯的，因为他创作了《崛起》这张专辑。

Springsteen, believe it or not, I only started listening to Bruce after 09:11 because he made the the rising.

在我看来，那是一张不容错过的专辑，因为它精美地——而且我告诉过他这一点——

And in my opinion, that's a no skip album because it beautifully and I've told him this.

它精美地描绘了那样一个黑暗、痛苦的时期，却又...却又...却又以视觉化的方式呈现了新泽西州美丽的九月。你知道，住在东海岸，九月是纽约最美好的时节。

It beautifully painted such a dark, tormented time in such a but but but visually in the beautiful month of September in New Jersey and, you know, being living in the East Coast, like September is the best time to be in New York.

九月是东海岸最美好的时光，因为那是秋叶最美的季节。

September is the best time to be in the East Coast because it's the fall foliage.

你仍能感受到一丝夏日的炎热。

You can still get a little bit of the summer heat.

那天我记得非常清晰，那是个异常完美的日子，却看到了滚滚黑烟。

And I remember that day very vividly and it was just an unusually perfect day out and just seeing black smoke.

然后听到布鲁斯的专辑，第一首歌叫《孤独的日子》。

And I I and then hearing Bruce's album, there's a song the track one is called Lonesome Day.

它是F大调，听起来像他之前的作品《饥渴的心》。

It's an f major, and it sounds like Hungry Heart, which is his prior work.

每个人都有一颗饥渴的心。

Everybody's got a hungry heart.

每个人都有一颗饥渴的心。

Everybody's got a hungry heart.

虽然旋律听起来很欢快，但歌词实际上是在描述9·11事件。

And it's very happy sounding, but it's about the it's literally about 09:11.

那是有史以来最悲伤的一天。

It's the saddest day ever.

我一直很着迷于他如何在音乐上升时，将欢快的和弦、愉悦的情绪与歌词中同时表达的快乐与悲伤这对主要矛盾结合起来。

And I was always so fascinated how he was able on the rising to combine happy chords, happy sentiment with the main dichotomy being what what was being sung lyrically, happy and sad at the same time.

所以后来我又发现了《来自阿斯伯里公园的问候》，并开始回溯布鲁斯的早期作品。

And that so so I I and then I've discovered other greetings from Asbury Park and went backwards from Bruce.

因此我非常感激布鲁斯。

So I I I'm greatly appreciative of Bruce.

我认为如果没有那张专辑的第15首歌《我的废墟之城》——它有着相似的和声节奏——就不会有《再见一面》这首歌。

And I don't think there would be See You Again without track 15 on that album, My City of Ruins, which has a similar chordal cadence.

双向，这个词在许多歌曲中都出现过，但我

Two way, which has been used in many songs, but I

正在考虑那个。

was considering that.

等待世界改变。

Waiting on the world to change.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

有首史蒂夫·雷·沃恩的歌叫《TikTok People》。

There's a song called TikTok People by Steve Ray Vaughan.

约翰·梅尔就是从那里得到的灵感。

That that's where John Mayer got it.

某晚我躺在床上，做了个美梦。

One night while sleeping in my bed, I had a beautiful dream.

然后全世界的人们都站在同一战线开始互相帮助。

Then all the people of the world got together on the same wavelength and began helping.

哦，当然是柯蒂斯·梅菲尔德和印象乐队的《People Get Ready》。

Oh, of course, People Get Ready by Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions.

还有范·莫里森的《Crazy Love》。

There's Crazy Love by by Van Morrison.

这份名单还在不断增加。

The list goes on and on.

但是

But

这就是为什么我如此欣赏布鲁斯，如果可以的话我现在就想发短信告诉他，因为他是我的短信好友，而且他还住在新泽西，我觉得一个超级成功的艺术家能回归新泽西的根基真的很酷。

that's how why I appreciate appreciate Bruce, and I'll text him that right now if I could because he's, and I can because he's a text buddy of mine and he still lives in New Jersey and I think that's super cool that a super successful artist is just back to his roots in New Jersey.

他正在制作一张R&B翻唱专辑，可能有点太接近你的领域了。

He's doing he's doing an R and B album, an R and B covers album and it's getting a little too close to your turf maybe.

真的吗？

Is he really?

据说他有一首八十年代Commodore乐队的歌。

He has like a Commodore song from the eighties supposedly.

所以

So it's

我超级期待听到这个。

I'm I'm soup I'm super excited to hear that.

比利·乔尔，我从小学习古典音乐，你听——他最近的专辑《River of Dreams》已经是差不多三十年前的事了。

And Billy Joel, I I grew up playing classical music and you listen to there's a I think his most recent record, which is still almost thirty years ago, River of Dreams.

里面有首歌叫《Lullaby》。

There's a song called Lullaby.

我想他是为女儿Alexa写的。

I think he wrote for his daughter Alexa.

晚安，我的天使。

Good night, my angel.

是时候闭上眼睛，把这些问题暂且搁置了。

Time to close your eyes and save these questions.

听起来几乎像，像一首古典音乐作品。

It almost sounds like a, like a classical piece of music.

我还记得听过那段旋律。

And I remember hearing that.

就像，那就像我正在学习的钢琴老师教我的曲子，但它其实是首流行歌。

It's like, that's like the music that I'm learning that my piano teacher is teaching me, but it's a pop song.

这让我确信自己可以学习——不必因为弹不好莫扎特钢琴协奏曲而气馁，只要尽我所能去学习，然后把它改编成流行歌曲。

I can that just affirms to me that I can learn I can not get discouraged about not nailing the Mozart piano concerto because I can just learn it the best of my to the best of my ability and then make it into a pop song.

比利·乔尔就是活生生的证明，这完全可行。

And Billy Joel was the living proof of that to be possible.

你看，我可以成为成功的艺术家同时弹钢琴——虽然中学时因为弹琴被朋友嘲笑是个书呆子。

Like, I can be a successful artist and play the piano, which, you know, my friends made fun of me for playing, but because I was a dork in middle school and beyond.

但在我眼里，比利·乔尔是把古典音乐变成流行乐的酷家伙。

But I looked at Billy Joel as the cool guy who made classical music into pop music.