北京逐步淘汰除冰化学品

讨论让世界运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这里是圆桌会议。

Is Roundtable.

您正在收听的是圆桌会议。

You're listening to Roundtable.

今天由史蒂夫·哈瑟利与雨顺和菲菲共同主持。

I'm Steve Hatherley today with Yushun and Fei Fei.

接下来：当一座国际大都市面对冬季风暴时，决定收起除冰剂会发生什么？

Coming up, what happens when a major world city looks at a winter storm and decides to put away the de icing agents?

这正是北京正在采取的做法。

That's exactly what Beijing is doing.

以水土健康之名，这座城市正用铁锹取代化学药剂。

In the name of soil and water health, it's swapping chemicals for shovels.

但这个现代化大都市能用传统方式应对霜冻吗？

But can this modern metropolis handle its frost the old fashioned way?

我们将探讨北京街头这场高风险环境下的实验。

We'll look at the high stakes environment and experiment playing out on Beijing sidewalks.

之后，对许多人来说，闲聊是打破僵局、消磨时光的舒适方式。

After that, for many, small talk is a comfortable way to break the ice and pass a bit of time.

然而对另一些人而言，闲聊却令人精疲力竭。

For others, however, small talk is exhausting.

有位作家决定停止闲聊一个月，结果发现了更深刻、更有活力的对话。

Well, one writer decided to stop small talk for a month and found much deeper, more energizing conversations.

随着数字生活和职业倦怠的蔓延，是时候摒弃客套话，谈谈真正重要的事了吗？

As digital life and burnout grow, is it time to drop the polite filler and talk about what actually matters?

播客听众可以在Apple Podcasts上搜索《圆桌议事》找到我们。

Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts.

别忘了，我们期待听到您的声音。

And don't forget, we love hearing your voice.

请将语音留言发送至roundtablepodcast@qq.com。

So send your voice our way through a voice note, roundtablepodcast@qq.com.

再次提醒，我们的邮箱是roundtablepodcast@qq.com。

Once again, roundtablepodcast@qq.com.

近日，北京迎来了今冬第一场雪，既带来了节日般的喜悦，也给城市运营带来了新的挑战。

And now, Beijing's first snowfall of the winter arrived recently, bringing festive cheer alongside new operational challenges for the city.

一项显著的政策变化是，官方已禁止在人行道、公园及主要旅游景点使用融雪剂。

In a notable policy change, officials have banned deicing agents on sidewalks, parks, and key tourist destinations.

这标志着城市管理向更环保的方向迈出了明确的一步。

Now this marks a clear step toward me a more eco conscious urban management.

但实际影响如何？比如清雪队伍将如何调整作业流程，替代方案能否保障城市交通的可靠运行？

But what about its practical impact, such as how removal crews will adapt their processes and whether alternative methods can ensure reliable urban mobility.

除了后勤问题，这项决策的广泛影响也值得深思。

Beyond the logistics, the decision's broader implications, they merit consideration.

减少化学径流预计将带来显著的环境效益，但这需要与冬季道路安全的关键考量及城市基础设施的长期韧性取得平衡。

Significant environmental benefits are anticipated from removing that chemical runoff, yet this has to be balanced against critical concerns for winter road safety and then the long term resilience of the city's infrastructure too.

是啊。

Yeah.

北京这里下了一场大雪。

We had a big snowfall here in Beijing.

嗯，不知道按北京的标准算不算大，但这确实让我有点想起加拿大的雪。

Well, I don't know if it was considered big by Beijing standards or not, but it did remind me of Canada at least a little bit.

是啊。

Yeah.

按照北京的标准，上周的雪算是中等规模吧。

Well, on Beijing standard, last week's snow was a moderate a middle sized snowfall, basically.

这给基础设施带来了挑战，尤其是交通方面。

So it posed challenges for infrastructure, especially in transport.

特别是从今年开始，北京实施了定制化的除雪计划，采用小型除雪机和人工清扫相结合的方式，负责居民区、人行道、公园和景区等区域的积雪清理。

And especially come starting from this year, Beijing has implement a tailored snow removal and ice clearing plan, and that rely on a mix of small snow removal machines and manual labor to clear the snow for in areas like residential communities, sidewalks, parks, and tourist spots.

但这并不意味着城市完全禁止在主干道、坡道、匝道和桥梁等关键区域使用融雪剂。

But that doesn't mean that the city is sort of completely banning out the use of deicing agents for major roads for key areas like slopes, on ramps, and bridges.

这些关键点位仍需要使用融雪剂来防止结冰。

They will also need deicing agencies to prevent ice buildup at critical points.

此外，主要交通路口也会使用液态融雪剂以确保交通安全。

And also liquid deicers will also be used at major traffic intersections to ensure traffic safety.

其他区域的除雪工作将根据道路结冰风险来开展。

And for other areas, snow removal will be carried out based on the risk of ice formation on the roads.

听起来市政府已决定在适宜区域全面停用化学融雪剂。

So then it sounds like the city has made a decision to eliminate the use of chemical de icers where it is a good idea to do that.

但在关键安全区域，如主要交叉路口、高速公路下坡匝道等处仍会使用。

But in critical safety areas, major intersections, down sloping off ramps, off of highways, things like that, you'll still find it used there.

是的。

Yes.

使用时剂量也受到限制。

And when in the use, the amount is also limited.

例如标准规定每次每平方米不超过25克，且需根据降雪情况每隔几小时按需补施。

For example, the standard is to apply no more than 25 grams per square meter at a time and with reapplications only made as necessary based on the snowfall conditions every few hours.

若作业期间需临时使用融冰剂，还必须实时上报以控制使用量。

And if de icing agents need to be used temporarily during these operations, They also must be reported real time to control the amount being used.

嗯

Mhmm.

这是北京基于除雪新趋势采取的新举措。

So that's a new move based of snow removal trend here in Beijing.

我记得去年，也就是2024年，北京出台了冰雪清除工作方案，并在奈罗斯地区试点启动了无融雪剂除雪项目。

And I think last year, in 2024, Beijing has introduced a work plan on snow and ice removal, and they sort of started a pilot program of deice deicer free snow removal on Nairos.

今年他们决定将这项措施推广到全市范围。

And then this year, they decided to sort of roll out the whole citywide.

嗯

Mhmm.

不只是北京

Not just Beijing.

哈尔滨在这方面也做出了类似的决策吗？

Harbin did something made a decision in terms of that as well?

是的

Yeah.

哈尔滨作为中国黑龙江省的省会，在2019年仅针对182个重点路口在特定条件下使用了融雪剂。

Harbin, who which is the provincial capital of Northeast China's Heilongjiang Province, only applied de icers on 182 key street junctions under specific conditions in 2019.

哦，他们几年前就做出这个决定了。

Oh, they made that decision a few years ago.

是的。

Yeah.

作为一个市民，我能立即看到的效果是人行道上的雪融化得更慢了，结冰现象能持续更长时间。

And I I would say the instant result that I can see as a citizen is that the snow on the sidewalk melted slower slowlier, and you can see the ice for a longer time.

这对我这个南方人来说反而是个好处。

That that is kind of a benefit for me as a southerner.

确实。

Yeah.

冰雪存留时间更长了。

It hangs around longer.

没错。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

这取决于你的视角，我想。

Depending on your perspective, I I suppose.

是的。

Yes.

但为什么是现在呢，我在想？

But why why now, I wonder?

因为除冰剂一直是许多地方清除积雪的首选方案，由于它们的低成本。

Because de icing agents, they've been the go to solution for snow removal in a lot of different places because of their low cost.

它们往往在价格上较为便宜。

They tend to be on the cheaper side of things.

它们也相当快速。

They're also pretty quick.

它们相当有效。

They're they're pretty effective.

它们确实能完成自己的任务。

They do they do their job.

但我想这与所使用的化学物质及其对环境的影响有关。

But I guess it has to do with the chemicals used and their impact on the environment.

关于这个问题的讨论已经持续了相当长一段时间，公众对这些化学品的广泛使用一直存在诸多担忧，许多声音呼吁城市尽可能减少或停止使用这些化学品，因为除冰剂主要分为三类。

And there has been discussions on this for quite a while and there has been many, like, ongoing public concern about the widespread use of these chemicals with many voices calling for cities to reduce or eliminate their use whenever possible because, the deicing agents are mainly divided into three categories.

第一类是有机除冰剂。

One is organic de icers.

这类主要成分为醋酸钾，能有效融雪且腐蚀性极低，但价格昂贵，通常用于机场或高尔夫球场等特定场所。

These are primarily made of potassium acetate and they are effective at melting snow and cause minimal corrosion but they are expensive and are typically used in specific areas like airports or golf courses.

高尔夫球场？

Golf courses?

嗯。

Mhmm.

场所。

Places.

哦，让顾客满意。

Oh, keep the customers happy.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

然后是氯化物基除冰剂，这些是我们在大街上最常见到的东西。

Then there's the chloride based de icers and these are the things that we can like most commonly see in in the streets.

那些就是除冰盐。

Those are the de icing salts.

对，那些白色的

Yeah, the the white

小点你都能看到。

dots that you can see.

而且那些要便宜得多，对吧？

And those those are a lot cheaper, right?

那些的成本大约只有有机除冰剂的十分之一。

Those will be about, oh, about a tenth of the cost of the organic ones.

有机融雪剂是最昂贵的那种。

The organic ones are are the are the most expensive ones.

在北京这边，他们一直在试验这种新型环保融雪剂，基本上是用玉米或其他植物秸秆制成的。

Well, here in Beijing, they've been trialing to this new eco friendly de icers that's basically made from corn or other plant stocks.

我记得他们大约十年前就开始在北京试用这种玉米基融雪剂了，像奥林匹克公园这样的主要场所都用了。

I think they start in Beijing, they start to trial these corn based de icers about ten years ago in major places like the Olympic Parks.

其实早在2002年就开始逐步测试了，我觉得更像是个边试验边观察效果的过程。

And slowly, they I think it's more of a testing and see how it went process as early as 2002.

北京这边有关于逐步淘汰盐类除冰剂的讨论。

There have been talks here in Beijing about phasing out the use of the salt de icers.

嗯，那些不好的除冰剂，比如氯化钠类的问题在于，它们会损坏地面的混凝土，还会损害桥梁等钢结构。

Well, one of the problems with the the bad ones, the sodium chloride ones, is using those as de icers is that it can damage the concrete on the grounds and it can damage steel structures like bridges.

盐类与混凝土的相互作用方式是渗入混凝土的孔隙，进入内部后与混凝土中的化合物发生反应。

Salts can the the way that it interacts with the concrete is that it gets into the pores of the concrete and then it goes into the interior and then it reacts with the compounds in the concrete.

这是个问题，因为它会使混凝土强度降低。嗯。

And that's a problem because it can make the concrete weaker Mhmm.

久而久之。

Over time.

而当它与钢材接触时，比如那些桥梁中的钢筋结构，盐分确实会加速钢材的腐蚀过程。钢材腐蚀后，其体积和强度都会发生变化——虽然这不是一朝一夕就会显现的问题，但长此以往确实会影响桥梁等重要基础设施的稳定性。

And then when it comes into contact with steel, the reinforced bars, for example, those those steel structures like bridges, well, it can accelerate the the salt can accelerate the corrosion of the steel, and when that steel corrodes, the volume and the strength change, and over time that, you know, that's not gonna be an overnight problem, but over time, that can affect the stability of bridges and other important infrastructure.

还可能污染周边水体，对当地生态系统造成危害，甚至影响居民区的饮用水安全。

And also polluting maybe the surrounding bodies of water, potentially harming the local ecosystem and maybe even the drinking water of that household area.

而且这些盐分还会导致土壤盐碱化，使得植物根系难以从土壤中吸收水分。

And also this salt, I think they can also have their lead to soil salt salination salinization, meaning that plant plants' roads will be struggle to absorb water from the soil.

我记得2022年有报道称，某些道路旁的树木开始枯萎凋零，调查发现这些树木死亡与除冰盐的使用存在关联。

I think there were reports back in 2022 that trees along certain roads start to wither and became sparse, and investigation found the link between these dying trees with these de icer salts.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以北京正在努力减少这类除冰制剂的使用。

So that's why Beijing is trying to, you know, cutting back on the use of the deicing agencies.

你知道加拿大用的是什么吗？

Do you know what we use in Canada?

我就算给你一百万次机会，你也绝对猜不到答案。

I I could give you 1,000,000 guesses, and you would never guess the answer to this.

我猜不是甜甜圈吧。

Not doughnuts, I guess.

甜甜圈。

Doughnuts.

对。

Yeah.

甜菜汁。

Beet beet juice.

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yeah.

甜菜汁。

Beet juice.

虽然这不是全国性的做法，但加拿大许多地区会使用盐水，比如盐卤水，然后与甜菜汁混合，这样做有一些不同的优势。

It's it's not a nationwide thing, but a lot of different Canadian areas will use a brine, like a salt brine, and then mix that with beet juice, and there are some different advantages to it.

混合液的冰点比纯盐更低，因此在极低温度下非常有效——加拿大冬季当然会遇到这种情况，而且腐蚀性也更小。

It has a lower freezing point, of the salt alone, so it's very effective at very low temperatures, which Canada, of course, deals with in the in the wintertime, and it's less corrosive as well.

不过也有人抱怨，因为甜菜汁容易留下污渍。

Some people complain though because beet juice tends to stain.

是啊。

Yeah.

它们是红色的。

They're red.

没错。

Yeah.

它们不仅是红色的，还有气味。

They're red and they smell too.

所以当用它来除冰时，会产生一种相当独特的气味，有些人觉得很难闻。

So when you're using that as a de icer, it has this really kind of distinct smell that some people find unpleasant.

它的前期成本相当高，而且存在一些环境问题。

It also has a pretty high upfront cost, and there are some environmental concerns.

虽然比盐要好，但如果大规模使用，也会向水体引入大量有机物。

It is better than the salt, but if you use it on a large scale, it can introduce high levels of organic matter into waterways too.

不过，我三天前刚看到渥太华的新闻。

But still, I was reading the news from like three days ago, Ottawa.

渥太华现在有一份请愿书。

There there's a petition in Ottawa.

他们想在道路上使用这种甜菜汁盐水来帮助减少盐分。

They wanna introduce this beet juice brine to their their roads to help with salt removal.

有些城镇改用白甜菜，因为人们抱怨红甜菜会染色路面。

And some towns are using white beets because people were complaining about the color of state and staining the roads.

所以，好吧。

So, okay.

既然我们知道盐对环境不利，对基础设施也不好，那么这对北京本地的除雪意味着什么？

So we know that the salts are not great for the environment, they're not great for the infrastructure, but what does this mean for snow removal in the sit in Beijing itself?

那是大海。

That is the sea.

实际上它带来了效率。

It brings, actually efficiency.

它能非常迅速地融化雪泥，这当然也是我们担忧环境的原因。很多人还表示，需要使用更多设施，投入更多人力，而且人们在路上驾驶甚至在人行道上行走都不太安全。

It can melt the smolts quite quite quickly, and, that is why, of course, we're concerning about the environment, and a lot of people are also saying, more facilities need to be used, more manual labor are are needed, and also, it is not that safe that people are, like like driving on the road or even just walking on the sidewalk.

地面可能会很滑，在普通工作日人们需要上班时，可能导致一些事故。

It can be quite slippery and maybe cause some of these, like, incidents when that's just a a regular workday people need to get to work.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这就是城市规划的关键所在，不是吗？

And I think that's the thing when it comes to city planning, isn't it?

当你提出一个解决方案时，总会存在某些优点和缺点。

Is that when you come up with a solution, there will always be some advantages and also disadvantages.

确实。

Sure.

例如，当北京试图减少使用这种融雪盐时，就意味着需要更多人冒雪外出清扫道路，因为我们需要人力，尤其是人行道更需要人工清理。

For example, when Beijing is trying to reduce the use of this deicing salt, that means more people would be going out in snowfalls to clear the roads because we need the manual labor, especially for for sidewalks to cleaner clear the roads.

我们需要志愿者。

We need volunteers.

我们需要政府机构或企业的参与。

We need government agencies or businesses.

我认为今年北京市将扫雪责任划分为8000多个区段，由政府机构、企业和志愿者共同协作清理积雪。

I think the city this year divided snow removal responsibilities into more than 8,000 sections with government agencies, business, and volunteers working together to clear the snow.

还建立了应急响应机制，确保在需要时工具和人员能及时到位。

There is also an emergency response mechanism to make sure that they have the tools and people are in place when they are needed.

嗯。

Mhmm.

确实如此。

Well, they they do.

我是说，北京拥有超过4800台扫雪车、7000台除雪机和48000件人工除雪工具。

I mean, Beijing has more than 4,800 snowplows, 7,000 snow removal machines, and 48,000 manual snow removal tools.

我想那是指铲子吗？

I think is that a shovel?

听起来人工除雪工具就是指铲子吧。

Sounds like manual snow removal tool sounds like a shovel to me.

会贬值。

Of depreciates.

当然还有其他工具。

And other things, of course.

全市共有48000件这类工具。

48,000 of those around the city.

但确实，如果没有这些融雪剂的快速效果，那么清除冰雪会更具挑战性，需要人们积极参与并在下雪时迅速响应。

But, yeah, if without the quick effectiveness of these deicing agents, then, yeah, snow and ice clearing, it's gonna become more challenging, and you need people on board and to be very active and very quick in their response when it does snow.

我想好在至少根据我在北京的有限经验，冬天并不会经常下大雪。

I guess the good thing is that, at least based on my limited experience here in Beijing, it doesn't snow that heavily that often in the wintertime.

是的。

Yeah.

与加拿大等地相比，北京相对干燥。

Beijing is relatively dry compared to, for example, places in Canada.

确实。

Sure.

但说到下雪，我们仍需制定某种除雪策略。

That but when it comes to snow, we still need some of some sort of a strategy in place for snow removal.

这是一座拥有2000多万人口共处的大都市。

It's a big city with more than 20,000,000 people living in the same space.

我在想或许可以运用具身智能机器人

And I think maybe embodied intelligence robots

说对了。

There you go.

我正等着你们中有人提到这个。

Can be I was waiting for one of you to mention it.

没错，正是如此。

Yes, exactly.

这正是这类具身智能机器人能进入这些湿滑危险环境的时候。嗯哼。

That's when these kind of embodied intelligence robots can get into these slippery, dangerous environments Mhmm.

或许还能用铲子清理结冰。

And just maybe clear and use the shovels to clear the ice.

这...这正是我所见。

It it is what I saw.

我们刚才讨论的正是我在我那个社区看到的情况。

What we what we were talking about is what I saw in my particular neighborhood.

主干道很快就清理得非常干净。

The main roads were very clear very quickly.

但拐进小路后，路上就更多泥泞积雪，人行道有些路段清理了，有些则没有。

You get off into the side roads, you get a little bit more of that slush on the roads, and then the sidewalks themselves, some sections were cleared and some sections weren't.

那些被清理的路段都是人们拿着铲子辛苦劳作的结果，这让我回想起加拿大的童年时光——我爸总会说'现在去把车道铲干净'，结果又下雪了，又得重新铲。

But the sections that were cleared were cleared by people who were out there with their shovels working hard, and it gave me a flashback to my Canadian childhood when my dad would say, go clear the driveway now, and it would snow again and you gotta do it again.

以上就是北京除雪现状的最新报告。

There's your update on snow removal here in Beijing.

您正在收听《圆桌论坛》，我是史蒂夫，与菲菲和雨欣一起主持。

You're listening to Roundtable, I'm Steve with Fei Fei and Yushin.

稍后回来，我们将讨论：闲聊文化正在消亡吗？

When we come back, is small talk dying?

寻找激情？

Looking for passion?

想来场激烈辩论吗？

How about fiery debate?

想从多元视角了解中国时事吗？

Wanna hear about current events in China from different perspectives?

那就锁定《圆桌论坛》，在这里东西方相遇，理解是我们的目标。

Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West, and understanding is the goal.

您正在收听《圆桌论坛》。

You're tuned into roundtable.

我是今天的史蒂夫，与菲菲和雨真一起主持。

I'm Steve today with Fei Fei and Yuzhen.

对我们许多人来说，它只是一种社交润滑剂。

For many of us, it's just a social lubricant.

但对一位作家而言，寒暄变得如此疲惫，以至于她进行了一项社会实验。

But for one writer, it became so exhausting that she conducted a social experiment.

她整整一个月放弃了闲聊。

She gave up small talk for an entire month.

她的目标是减少情感劳动——那种维持礼貌的心理消耗，她感觉这正在耗尽她的精力。

Her goal was to reduce the emotional labor, the mental effort of performing politeness that she felt was draining her energy.

结果她发现，深刻的真诚对话蓬勃涌现，她的精力水平也随之飙升。

The result, she found deep authentic conversations flourished, she had her energy levels sore.

这就引出了一个问题：闲聊究竟是有用的社交工具，还是过时的文化负担？

So it begs the question, is small talk actually a useful social tool or is it an outdated cultural burden?

如今我们的生活中，数字对话和连接正日益包围着我们。

We're increasingly surrounded by digital conversations and connections in our lives now.

职业倦怠现象在加剧，与之相伴的还有深刻的文化差异。

Burnout is on the rise, and along that along with that are deep cultural differences.

那么，闲聊无意义话题的能力是否正在过时，还是我们应该再坚持个百来年？

So is the ability to chat about nothing becoming obsolete, or should we hang on to it for a century or so more?

让我们从这个社会实验开始说起。

Let's start with the social experiment.

这个实验非常非常有趣。

This is quite quite interesting.

这位作家具体做了什么？当她禁止闲聊后生活发生了什么变化？

What did this writer do and what was the result of her banning small talk from her life?

这位作家名叫伊娃·怀斯曼，她是《卫报》的专栏作家，她决定不再进行这种需要情感付出的礼貌表演。

Well, the writer called Eva Wiseman, she's a she's a columnist for The Guardian, and she decided she was done with the emotional text of polite performance.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

所以她基本上避开了所有答案显而易见的问题，比如'下雨了吗？'

So she basically avoided all questions with obvious answers like, is it raining?

因为你知道，谈论天气在英语里是非常典型的闲聊素材。

Because, you know, talking about weather is I think a very mature small talk material in the English language.

于是她不再问这类问题，迫使自己的互动从更有意义的层面开始。

And so she stopped asking about these questions and forcing her interaction to start at more meaningful level.

这需要她谨慎地打断自己默认使用礼貌套话的习惯。

This required her to cautiously interrupt the habit of defaulting to polite filler phrases.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以她做的是，比如不再问天气如何，而是训练自己问'你今天感觉怎么样？'这类问题。

So what she did was instead of asking about the weather for example, she trained herself to ask questions like, how are you feeling about today?

或者'你在想什么？'

Or what's occupying your mind?

这样就把对话从表面的闲聊转向了真实的内容。

And that redirected the conversation from surface level chitchat to something real.

对她听众、对交谈对象提出的真实问题，能确切了解他们对当天的感受。

A real question for her audience, for the person she was speaking to, to find out exactly how they were feeling about the day.

如果我被问到这种问题，我会当场僵住。

If I got that kind of questions, I would freeze.

哦，等等。

Oh, just wait.

我们马上要做一个自己的小社交实验。

We're gonna do our own little social experiment in in just a moment.

我们快速过一下这个，因为我想马上进入正题。

Let's just quickly go through that because I wanna get to that.

当她这样实践了一个月后——你知道，就是剔除对话中那些简单话题——她发现与人进行的对话更有实质内容了。

So what she realized when she went through this for a month, you know, eliminating easy topics from the the conversations, what she found was that the conversations she had with people were more substantial.

这些对话更多地触及了人们的生活事件或个人思考。

It got to cover more of the people's life events or personal reflections.

她说这个实验节省了她的社交精力，保留了她的社交耐力，让她能把个人精力真正投入到她关心的人身上。

And she said that the experiment saved her social energy, her social stamina, and it allowed her to invest her own personal energy into people that she genuinely cared for.

我觉得这很有意思，因为她意识到寒暄实际上是一种防止自己脆弱的自我保护。

And I think that's really interesting because she realized that the small talk was actually a form of self protection against vulnerability.

她说：'我的寒暄是为了与世界保持距离，是一道模糊的安全屏障。'

She said, my small talk was designed to keep the world away, a safety barrier of blah blurredness.

通过摒弃寒暄，她移除了社交防御机制，发现这种脆弱性最终丰富了她的人际互动。

And by eliminating it, she she removed the social defense mechanism and found that this vulnerability ultimately enriched her interactions.

这真的很有趣。

It's really interesting.

世界各地有些文化推崇寒暄，比如西方文化中的美国和加拿大。

There are cultures around the world that embrace small talk, Western culture, America, Canada.

这几乎是一种必需品。

It's almost a necessity.

而欧洲有些文化则不然，比如瑞典和芬兰，他们完全不喜欢寒暄。

Whereas there are cultures in Europe, Sweden is one, Finland is one where they don't like small talk at all.

我听说德国人并不认为寒暄是必要的社交环节。

I've heard that Germany doesn't really find small talk a necessary part of things.

在我们开始实验前简单问下，在中国，关于天气这类寒暄内容在日常交流中常见吗？

How is in China, just very quickly, before we do our experiment, in China, small talk, you know, the weather type stuff, is that is that common in daily interactions?

我认为相当普遍，而且已经融入了日常问候中。

I I think it's quite common and it's integrated into the daily greetings.

嗯

Mhmm.

比如你吃了吗？或者最近在忙什么？

Like have you eaten or or are you up to?

嗯

Mhmm.

像这样

Like that

这是人们常说的一个非常常见的短语。

that's a very common phrase that people would say.

嗯

Mhmm.

我刚意识到人们实际上这样做只是为了打招呼。

And I just realized that people actually, they they do this just for greeting.

他们并不是真的想知道你在忙什么。

They're not actually wanting to know that where you're up to.

这就是作者的意图，摒弃那些表面寒暄，看看我们能否达到更深层次的交流。

And that was the writer's point, to eliminate that stuff and see if we could get to a deeper level.

所以我们要在这里进行我们的实验。

So we're gonna conduct our experiment here.

我们每个人都为对方准备了一个超越表面互动的问题，就像我们偶然在街上相遇一样进行对话，看看这个实验会如何发展。

We have all prepared one question for each other which goes beyond surface level interaction, and we're gonna just gonna play it like we just run into each other in the street and we're gonna see how this experiment goes.

好的。

Okay.

我先开始。

I'll go first.

我正在街上。

I'm out in the streets.

哦，最近下雪了。

Oh, it snowed recently.

看那边。

Look at that.

哦，路上没有除冰剂。

Oh, no de icing agents on the road.

哦，玉树。

Oh, Yushu.

哦。

Oh.

嗨。

Hi.

嘿。

Hey.

最近怎么样，老兄？

How you doing, man?

嗨。

Hi.

嘿。

Hey.

我想问你个问题。

I wanted to ask you.

当你比较在北京的生活和家乡时，如果与你的家乡相比，你最喜欢这里的什么？

So when you compare your life living in Beijing to your hometown, what's your favorite thing about living here if you compare it to where you're from?

哦。

Oh.

我们突然在街头进行个人访谈，而我需要立即回答，回想过去三四年的经历，真是感慨万千。

We're suddenly getting to a personal interview in the middle of the street and I need to answer it immediately that thinking about the past three or four years of me listening just see.

我思考这个问题答案很久了，我觉得应该给你一个合理的回答，但就是说不出来。

I've been thinking about the answer of this question for so long, and I think I need to give you a legitimate answer, but I just couldn't.

这就是为什么我说遇到这种情况时我会突然卡壳

That that's why I I was saying that I I would freeze when I was getting this kind of

嘿，雨欣。

a Hey, Yushin.

看，菲菲来了。

Look, Fei Fei is here.

嘿，菲菲。

Hey, Fei Fei.

嗨。

Hi.

雨欣。

Yushin.

哦，

Oh,

嗨，菲菲。

hi, Fei Fei.

是啊。

Yeah.

噢，你最近在健身啊。

Oh, you've been working out lately.

你的健身进展如何了？

How how is the process of your, like, your What's your fitness process?

哦，我我尽量在百忙之中挤出些健身时间，尽力而为吧。

Oh, I I manage to squeeze in some of the fitness times in between anyway, just trying my best.

不过，你也知道，还有提升空间。

But, you know, things can be better.

我是说，我可以试着少加班，争取早点完成工作...哦，嗨Steve。

I mean, I can try to work less in lead and try to wrap up my work earlier into the Oh, hi Steve.

哦，嘿，Faye Faye。

Oh, hey, Faye Faye.

所以我我我真的很想知道，你从首尔搬到北京这个决定背后的思考过程，为什么做出这个选择？

So I I I really am wondering that the decision making process behind your move from Seoul to Beijing, why did you make that decision?

哦，这个嘛，你知道我们在韩国生活了很多很多年，我觉得这个机会自己找上门来，而且谁能得到这种被邀请去北京工作的风筝般机遇呢。

Oh, well, you know, we had lived in Korea for many many many years and I thought this opportunity presented itself to me and who gets this kite type of chance to to be asked to move to Beijing and work in Beijing.

新文化、新美食、新朋友，说实话我立刻就抓住了这个机会。

So new culture, new foods, new people, kinda jumped at the opportunity to be honest with you.

你真是很有魄力。

That's a very bold of you.

总之，很高兴见到你们。

Anyway, great to see you guys.

街上小心点。

Be careful on the streets.

你也是。

You too.

现在。

Now.

老兄。

Man.

好吧。

Okay.

所以这就是为什么，我的观点是，这位作家说她这样做了一个月，与人建立了更深层次的联系，还节省了精力等等等等。

So that's why, and this is my point, this writer said she did this for a month and she had deeper connections with people, and she saved her energy for blah blah blah.

我觉得如果人们不习惯这种方式，这方法就行不通。

I don't think this could work if people aren't accustomed to it.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

而且，如果你们之前互动非常有限，比如基本上只是点头之交，就不能直接问那些关于人生重大决定的深层问题。

And also, if you have very limited interactions before, for example, basically just acquaintance, you can't just ask about really deep life decision questions.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但这有没有让你觉得不舒服呢？

But did that make you feel uncomfortable in any way?

你可能会想，天哪，我不习惯这种对话方式。

You should like, oh my gosh, I'm not used to this type of conversation.

我觉得有一点。

I think a little bit.

不过这也可能取决于你们之间的关系。

And but but also that depends on maybe the relationship that you two are having.

就像你说的，如果你们只是泛泛之交，我觉得可能会让人有点被冒犯的感觉。

If, as you said, you are just acquaintance, you you I think it can be slightly offended Yeah.

当你问那种私人问题时。

When you're asking that kind of personal questions.

完全同意。

Totally agree.

有点让人不舒服，对吧？

A little off putting, right?

是啊是啊，我本来只想聊聊天气，结果你却想知道些别的。

Yeah, yeah, I'm just ready to chat about the weather, but now you want to know something.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean?

我的健身习惯吗？

My exercise routine?

你为什么要和我一起锻炼？

Why do you wanna work out with me together?

是的，这就是为什么我说这个故事的作者，这个社会实验，对她来说似乎有效，但对接收者来说可能比对你更重要。

Yeah, that's why I said the writer of this story, this social experiment, it seemed like it worked for her, but this is almost more important for your receiver than it is for you.

所以如果你想尝试，要意识到它可能不会奏效。

So if you wanna try it out, kinda be aware that it might not work.

总之，这还挺有趣的。

Anyway, that was a bit of fun.

感谢参与。

Thanks for participating.

今天的圆桌讨论就到这里。

That'll do it for today's roundtable.

非常感谢你今天花时间与我们在一起。

Thank you very much for spending your time with us today.

我是史蒂夫，代表雨欣和菲菲。

For Yu Shin and Fei Fei, I'm Steve.

祝你一切顺利。

Have a good one.

我们下次见。

We'll see you next time.