中国发现：在动物园成为动物园之前

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

你正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're listening to Roundtable.

今天我是史蒂夫，和Fei Fei以及Yushan一起。

I'm Steve today with Fei Fei and Yushan.

接下来，Yushan，你一定很兴奋，因为你将在节目中推出一个新板块，叫做

Coming up, Yushan, you must be excited because you have a new segment on the show and it's called

中国发现。

China Finds.

中国发现。

China Finds.

今天节目开始时我稍微透露了一下，这个板块将聚焦于挖掘中国的历史，一定会非常有趣。

I gave a little teaser when we started the show today, but it's all about uncovering the history of China and it's gonna be a whole lot of fun.

我们已经有了。

We've got that.

我们的播客听众可以在苹果播客上搜索 Roundtable China 找到我们。

Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts.

别忘了，我们也非常期待听到你的声音。

Don't forget that we love to hear from you too.

请给我们发送一段语音留言，分享你对我们节目中讨论的任何话题的看法。

So send us a voice note with your thoughts on any of the things that we discuss here on show.

或者，如果你这个季节正在受过敏困扰，也可以告诉我们你的经历。

Or if you're suffering from allergies this season, you can tell us about that too.

Roundtable 播客，网址是 qq.com。

Roundtable podcast at qq.com.

再次提醒，Roundtable 播客，网址是 qq.com。

Once again, roundtable podcast at qq.com.

接下来。

And now.

你以为历史已经过去了？

Think history is behind us?

再想想吧。

Think again.

永恒的发现，现代的意义。

Timeless discoveries, modern meanings.

这是《中国发现》。

This is China Finds.

这是《中国发现》的第一期，它将出现在我们每周的节目安排中，这个板块属于玉山，且只属于玉山。

It is the first edition of China Finds, and this is going to be when it pops up on our weekly schedule, a segment that belongs to Yushan and Yushan alone.

在我们进入你今天要分享的内容之前，先给我们讲讲这个板块吧。

So tell us a little bit about the segment before we get into what you have for us today.

哇哦。

Wow.

我太兴奋了。

I'm so excited.

经过几个月的准备，终于到了这一刻。

After a few months of preparation, final here it goes.

欢迎各位来到《中国发现》第一期。

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the first edition of China Finds.

在这个环节中，我们将穿越时间，回溯中国历史，通过考古研究、文化传统以及至今仍在不断涌现的新发现，来更好地理解中国。

So this is where we travel a little bit across time back in the history of China to understand China better through archaeological studies and the our history, the culture here, and also the stories that new discoveries are still bringing upfront until these days.

那么今天，我先给你们俩出个简单的测验问题。

So today, let me start with a quick quiz question for both of you.

想象一下，你正站在三千年前的古代中国——也就是我们现在称之为中国的这片土地上。

Imagine you're standing in ancient China, I mean, three thousand years ago on this land that we call China now.

你听到鸟儿鸣叫，同时听到身后树林中有什么庞然大物在移动、潜伏。

And you hear birds chirping and something large moves and lurking behind the woods behind you.

我们谈论的是三千年前生活在中国这片土地上的野生动物。

And we're talking about wild animals from over 3,000 ago here in China.

那么问题来了。

So here's the question.

你觉得你会最先看到什么？

What do you think you'll expect expect to see first?

A，鹿，B，老虎，C，仙鹤，还是D，以上都是？

A, a deer, b, a tiger, c, a crane, or d, all of the above?

或者希望是E，以上都不是。

Or hopefully, e, none of the above.

我觉得是蜡笔，听起来不错。

I think it's a crayon sounds nice.

那可不是最安全的，哦，不。

Not that's the safest oh, no.

鹿也是无害的。

Deer deer is harmless too.

我选老虎。

I'm gonna say tiger.

哦，那正是我的答案。

Oh, that's my answer.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

它是一种大型的

It's something large and

可怕的。

Scary.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，答案是d。

Actually, the answer is d.

所有选项都对。

All the above.

因为你刚刚走进了中国最古老的动物园。

Because you've just walked into what's deemed to be China's oldest zoo.

而且，是的，这个动物园在你们家乡的第一次学校动物园之旅前三万三千年前就已存在。

And, yes, this zoo existed thirty three thousand years before your first, well, school trip to the zoo in your hometown.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

以下是新闻。

Here's the news.

今年年初，中国中部的考古学家宣布了一项非凡的发现。

At the beginning of this year, archaeologists in Central China announced something extraordinary.

他们可能发现了中国历史上已知最早的圈养野生动物场所。

They may have uncovered the earliest known complex of captive wild animals in Chinese history.

所以，早在三千年前就已存在动物园的概念。

So the concept of a zoo existed even three thousand years ago.

我认为当时他们并不称之为动物园，但没错，这正是

I don't think they called it a zoo back then, but, yes, that's the

想法。

idea.

当然。

Sure.

这一发现发生在位于中国河南省安阳市的著名考古遗址殷墟。

So this discovery happened in Anyang, Henan Province in Central China at a very famous archaeological site called Yinshu or the Yin Ruins.

它是大约三千年前商朝的最后一个都城，商朝统治时期约为公元前1600年到公元前1046年。

It's the last capital of the Shang dynasty back in all of three thousand years ago, which ruled from around 1600 to January.

这是中国历史上的第二个王朝，对吧？在夏朝之后。

That's the second dynasty in the Chinese history, right, after Xia.

所以是商朝。

So the dynasty of Shang.

所以那可能是一座很大的城市，也许是王室居住的地方。

So it can be a very big city, maybe where the royals live.

是的。

Yeah.

王室成员居住于此，而且这里的工业早已非常著名，出土了包括甲骨在内的众多考古发现——古代中国人曾用甲骨占卜，还有青铜器物，这是最早的青铜雕刻和器物，代表了当时青铜文化的稳步发展。

The the royals live and also industry is already very very famous and for all the archaeological discoveries including oracle bones where ancient Chinese people used to tell fortune, and also bronze artifacts, the earliest bronze carving and artifacts that represent the really steady growing bronze culture at that time.

所以这是一个早已以考古发现闻名的地方。

So this is a place that's already been known for archaeological finds.

没错。

Correct.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

但在2023年至2024年间，考古学家们进行了更深的挖掘。

But just between 2023 and 2024, archaeologists, they dug deeper.

大约又深挖了240平方米。

That's about a 240 square meters deeper

哇。

Wow.

并发现了19个填满动物遗骸的祭祀坑。

And uncovered 19 sacrificial pits filled with animal remains.

所以这是一项相对较新的发现，尽管我们所发现的东西可以追溯到几千年前的中国历史。

So that's relatively a a new discovery even though what we found is, like, thousands of years ago back in Chinese history.

那么他们在那里发现了哪些类型的动物呢？

So what did they what types of animals did they find there?

我们谈论的不仅仅是普通的家畜。

It's not just usual farm animals we're talking about.

我们发现了鹿、狼、老虎、豹子、狐狸、野猪，以及天鹅、鹤和鹅等鸟类。

We're seeing deer, wolves, tigers, leopards, foxes, serrows, and wild boars, as well as birds including swan, cranes, and geese.

因此，有大量不同种类的动物。

So a a huge variety of different types of animal.

此外，考古学家还注意到一些连他们自己都觉得不寻常的现象，让我们听听中国社会科学院考古研究所助理研究员李晓明的说法。

And also, the archaeologists also noticed something unusual even to them that let's hear this is Li Xiaoming, assistant researcher at the Institute of Archaeology Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

到目前为止，我们在殷墟王陵区的两条环绕壕沟之间发现了七排动物祭祀坑。

So far, we have discovered seven rows of animal sacrificial pits between two surrounding trenches in the Royal Mausoleum area of the Yin Ruins.

在这里你可以看到两头神圣水牛相对完好的遗骸。

Here you can see the fairly well preserved remains of two sacred water buffalo.

我们在水牛的脖子上发现了悬挂的青铜铃铛。

We found bronze bells hanging from the necks of the buffalo.

事实上，这一排坑中都埋藏着稀有 exotic 动物，且大多数动物的脖子上都出土了青铜铃铛。

In fact, this entire row consists of pits containing rare and exotic animals, and bronze bells were unearthed from the necks of most of them.

这表明这些动物并非通过临时或偶然的狩猎获得，而是商王专门饲养的珍稀生物。

This indicates that these animals were not obtained through temporary or opportunistic hunting, but were rare creatures specially raised by the Shang King.

哦，这太酷了。

Oh, that's pretty cool.

是的。

Yeah.

真是一头水牛啊。

What a buffalo.

我以前不知道这一点。

I didn't know that.

如果他们只是发现了骨头，那可能也就只是个有趣的发现，虽然不错，但不会特别令人惊讶。

If they had just found the bones, well, that probably wouldn't have been it would have been a cool find, but it wouldn't have been that surprising maybe.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但发现铃铛挂在动物骨骼的脖子上，这表明这些动物具有不同的意义。

But to find the bells around the necks of the animal's bones, that's a clue that these animals meant something different.

没错。

Exactly.

这正是故事变得真正有趣的地方，因为正如视频中的考古学家提到的，这些动物中有一些佩戴着青铜铃铛，准确地说，共有29个。

The this is where the story gets really interesting because as mentioned by the the archaeologist in the clip, some of these animals, they wear these bronze bells and well, to be exact, that's 29 of them.

如果这些动物是被饲养、被珍视、被管理和被监控的，而不是仅仅在野外被猎杀，那么这些铃铛就完全说得通了。

And these bells make perfect sense if they were kept alive and appreciated and managed and monitored instead of just being out there and, you know, like being hunted as of

只是在大自然中的某个地方。

Just out there in nature somewhere.

这引出了我今天的第二个测验问题。

That leads to my second quiz question for today.

你认为三千年前这些动物为什么会被圈养？

Why do you think were these animals kept in captivity three thousand years ago?

A，它们是商朝为王室宾客打造的VIP宠物动物园。

A, they were the Shang dynasty's vision of a VIP petting zoo for royal guests.

B，它们是某种复杂仪式的一部分，但同时也被精心饲养和管理，而不仅仅是为了狩猎。

B, they were part of an elaborate ritual, but also carefully raised and managed not just for hunting.

C，它们是早期驯化尝试的一部分，旨在控制和改造自然。

C, they were early attempts of domestication, part of trying to control and reshape nature.

D，它们被训练成古代的安保人员，或作为战时坐骑来保护王室。

D, they were being trained as ancient security guards were wartime rides to protect the royal court.

你能训练水牛吗？

Can you train a water buffalo?

用于战争？

For wartime?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我认为传说中，早在几千年前，有一位部落首领曾骑过熊猫。

I think legends had it that back in, like, many thousand years ago, one tribe leader used to ride panda.

哦。

Oh.

他的名字叫楚游。

His name is Chuyou.

是的。

Yes.

那是

That's

但那是

But that's

像是史前的。

like prehistorical.

对。

Yeah.

但就我有限的考古学知识而言，我会猜是A。

But for for me, based on my very limited archaeology knowledge, I would guess a.

它们是VIP饲养园的皇家版本。

They're they're as the version royal version of the VIP padding zoo.

真的吗？

Really?

你为什么猜是这一个？

Why'd you guess that one?

因为我不认为在三千年前，人们试图控制或改造自然。

Because I don't think back to three thousand years ago, they were trying to control or reshape nature.

因为那时候，我认为人们仍然对自然抱有精神信仰，认为自然是当时主宰一切的力量。

Because back then, I think there's still this spiritual belief about nature is the, you know, ruling power of our time.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

而且，我认为在战争时期，你不可能训练水牛或仙鹤。

And also, I I don't think you can train a water buffalo or crane during wartime.

我不太确定。

I'm not really sure.

所以啊，你知道的，把鹤当士兵，是的。

So And I don't you know, a crane as a soldier Yeah.

大概不是你的最佳选择。

Probably not your best choice.

水牛的话，当然可以。

Water buffalo, sure.

只有在《功夫熊猫》里才这样，

In Kung Fu Panda only,

我想是吧。

I guess.

顺便问一下，《功夫熊猫》里那只鹤叫什么名字？

What was the crane's name in Kung Fu Panda, by the way?

那是大师吗？

Was that the master?

我忘了。

I forgot.

对吧？

Right?

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

另一个葡萄牙人。

One other Portuguese.

但不管怎样，好吧。

But anyway Alright.

所以，我不，嗯，我会拒绝保安。

So I'm not, yeah, I'm gonna say no to security guards.

我会拒绝改造自然，但我也要拒绝动物园，因为我觉得在那个时代的皇室，这些动物会有更深的意义。

I'm gonna say no to reshaping nature, but I'm also gonna say no to petting zoo because I feel like the animals would have had a deeper meaning to the royal court at that time.

所以我会说它们是复杂仪式的一部分，因为我们知道在中国古代历史中，有很多神灵。

So I will say they were part of elaborate rituals because we know that in China's ancient history, there were a lot of gods.

对吧？

Right?

这个神，那个神，另一个神。

The god of this, the god of that, the god of that.

所以我在想，这些动物可能是作为献给神的祭品被牺牲的。

So I'm thinking that maybe the animals were sacrificed as an offering to the gods.

你已经非常接近了，但让我们听听来自中国社会科学院考古研究所的研究员余山的答案。

You were getting really close, but let's get the answer from Yushan, researcher at the Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

我们发现这些野生动物都是幼年个体，尚未完全成年。

We found that these wild animals were all juveniles and not yet fully grown.

这表明当时的人们正在尝试驯化这些动物，进行了一些最早期的改造和征服自然的尝试。

This suggests that people at the time were attempting to domesticate these animals, engaging in some of the earliest efforts to transform and conquer nature.

所以正确答案其实是C。

So the answer is is actually c.

他们试图把这些动物当作宠物来养。

They were trying to make pets out of them.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，考古学家发现这些动物在被捕获时大多还很年轻，这表明当时的人们确实试图驯养它们、饲养它们。

Well, they the fact that archaeologists found that many of these animals were actually young when captivated suggest that people at that time were really attempting to domesticate them, raise them.

有道理。

Fair point.

它们体型更小。

They were smaller.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

是幼年个体。

Were juvenile.

它们还不是完全成年的成年个体。

They weren't fully grown adults yet.

我想在三千年前，人们也在考虑不同的家养动物选择

I guess also back in back three thousand years ago, people are also looking at different options of farm animals

没错。

Right.

而不仅仅是羊或其他类型的动物。

Rather than just sheep or or other types.

我认为在中国的不同地区，不同的地方文化使用了不同的动物。

I think at different parts of China, different culture local cultures use different animals too.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我之所以提到，史蒂夫，你差不多是对的，是因为在那时，商朝的动物是权力、声望以及整个宇宙秩序的象征。

But the reason why I mentioned, Steve, you were sort of right, almost right, is also because back then, animals in the Shang dynasty were symbols of power, prestige, and this whole cosmic order too.

因此，许多动物被用于复杂的祭祀仪式，这些仪式旨在与祖先和古代人所信仰的神灵沟通。

So many were used in elaborate sacrificial rituals that's meant to communicate with the ancestors and the gods that the the ancient people believed in.

但真正令人惊讶的是，最近发掘的这座动物园背后的体系极其复杂，因为它表明考古学家发现了对来自不同地区的多种物种进行标准化管理的证据，以及有组织的获取和照料痕迹，这意味着在三千年前的中国，已经存在一个能够进行运输的国家级网络。

But here's the really the surprising part where the system behind this zoo that was excavated recently that's really incredibly sophisticated as it shows because archaeologists found standardized handling diverse species from different regions and signs of organized acquisition and care through their excavation, meaning that a state level network capable of transport transporting already exist back in three thousand years ago here in China.

真惊人，他们竟能从这些信息中推断出这么多细节。

It's amazing that they can know all of that Yeah.

仅仅通过在地下发现的这些遗骸。

Simply from finding these remains in the ground.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个令人惊叹的方面是将水牛运送到中国中部。

And also, another amazing part is about transporting a water buffalo to the Central of China.

我不确定水牛是不是三千年前的本地物种。

I'm not sure maybe water buffalo wasn't a native species three thousand years ago.

但想象一下，要捕捉它并将其运输数百甚至数千英里，需要多少力量和资源。

But imagine the power, the resources you need to pour in to capture it and then to transport it, I don't know, hundreds or thousands miles away.

是的。

Yeah.

你总不能把这玩意儿送上高铁吧。

You're not putting that on the high speed train

是的。

Yeah.

在商朝。

In the Shang dynasty.

不。

No.

你得说服那头水牛自己走。

You gotta convince that water buffalo to move on its own.

但即便如此，某种程度上，那也算不上动物园，但又有点像动物园，嗯。

But still, kind of I mean, not a zoo, but yet kind of a zoo Mhmm.

那时候，我想是这样的。

At that time in a way, I suppose.

是的。

Yeah.

但关键是，他们发现了这些动物骨骼，但这些并不属于动物本身的范畴。

But the thing is they discovered this animal bones, but it's not really on the animal part of things.

它还涉及分析这种动物对当时社会造成的生态影响。

It's also on analyzing how or what kind of ecological impact it had on the society back then.

因此，这不仅仅是关于这些动物骨骼，而是这种古代的‘动物园’概念，实际上帮助现代科学家理解商朝时期的历史、环境以及权力等级。

So it's not really just on these animal bones, but rather this ancient idea of zoo is actually helping modern scientists to understand the history and environment and also the hierarchy of power back in the Shang dynasty.

那么，商朝时期发生的事情也影响了今天的动物护理吗？

So that what happened in the Shang Shang dynasty also had an influence on today's animal care?

是也不是，因为那是我们试图从历史中解读的一种象征。

Yes and no because that's a symbol that we're trying to interpret from back in history.

如果我们快进到今天，动物不再只是王室的专属。

If we fast forward to today nowadays, animals are no longer reserved for kings.

原因之一是，以北京动物园为例。

That's for one because take the Beijing zoo for example.

我想所有北京人都在生命中的某个阶段去过那里，就像我一样。

I think all Beijingers had visited in some part of in their life just like I do.

它成立于1906年，是中国最古老的公共动物园，占地超过80公顷，饲养着约400个物种、5000多只动物。

I was was founded in nineteen o six, which makes it China's oldest public zoo that's covering more than 80 hectares of a space, housing over 5,000 animals across around 400 species.

我没去过，它在城市哪里？

I have not been where is it in the city?

它在北京中心，稍微偏西北一点，但仍在市中心范围内。

It's in Central Beijing, a little bit to the Northwestern, but still within the central area.

它离石景门站非常近。

It's very close to Shijimen Station

在二环上。

in the 2nd Ring.

是的。

Yes.

它也是北京必去的景点之一。

It's famous like also a must go to place in Beijing as well.

自1906年就存在了。

Been there since nineteen o six.

你以前去过吗？

You visited before?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我去过好几次，是的。

I've visited multiple times Yeah.

因为那里有熊猫。

Because there were panda.

我觉得那个动物园里还有一只明星熊猫。

I think there was also a star panda in that zoo.

等一下。

Wait a minute.

北京有熊猫？

There's a panda in Beijing?

是的。

Yeah.

我一直在计划去成都旅行，差不多有一年半了，以为那是唯一能去的地方。

I've been trying to plan a trip to Chengdu for, like, a year and a half, thinking that's the only place I can go.

嗯，我想我只需要坐几站地铁就行了。

Well, I think I can just take the subway for a few stops.

是的。

Yeah.

在成都，你将会看到熊猫宝宝。

In Chengdu, you're gonna see the babies.

但在北京，我们这里有好几只明星熊猫。

But in Beijing, we have several stars here.

这几乎是动物园里最主要的旅游景点之一。

That's, like, kind of the the main tourism spot inside the zoo too.

不过你提到成都很好，现在我们想到的是中国西南部四川省的成都。

But it's very nice that you mentioned Chengdu because now we think about Chengdu in Southwest China Sichuan Province.

我们将熊猫和当地的熊猫文化与这座城市联系在一起，因为成都基本上已经是世界熊猫之都，熊猫在这里得到了非常好的繁育和保护。

That's where we align the idea of panda and the local panda culture with the city because basically Chengdu is already the world's panda capital and the panda being cultivated so well, protected so well.

现在在社交媒体上，它受到全世界的喜爱。

It's like, loved by all around the world on social media nowadays.

是的。

Yeah.

它是中国的国际象征。

And it's an international symbol of China.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

这是每个人都知道的事情。

It's something that everybody knows about.

我有一些朋友专门来中国看熊猫？

I have friends who have traveled to China specifically to see Pandas?

熊猫。

The pandas.

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，他们去了成都。

They visited Chengdu as a matter of fact.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

他们非常喜欢那里的体验。

And they absolutely loved the experience there.

是的。

Yeah.

现在，你知道，现代的动物园显然和以前大不相同，而成都那个熊猫基地，无疑是中国最著名的地方。

And now, you know, modern day zoos are very different, obviously, than the way they used to be, and that place the place in in Chengdu with the pandas would be the most famous place in China for for no.

因为动物园整体而言，北京的可能是最古老的。

For zoos in general because the Beijing one might be the oldest.

对吧？

Right?

1906年。

Nineteen o six.

你觉得成都的这个是最著名的吗？

Would the Chengdu one be the most famous, would you say?

我会说，它是动物保护方面最具标志性的，尤其是针对大熊猫。

I I'll say it's the most iconic one regarding animal preservation and specifically when it comes to panda.

现在我们有一个完整的保护体系，不仅保护着生活在我认为是成都国家公园——大熊猫国家公园里的1340只野生大熊猫。

And now we have this whole umbrella system that's not only protecting the 1,340 wild giant pandas living in the I think there's Chengdu National Park Giant Panda National Park right there in Chengdu.

所以，这已经不仅仅是关于这些大熊猫了，而是整个保护体系，如今保护着超过8000种其他珍稀物种，包括金丝猴和雪豹，以及所有其他本地生物多样性物种。

So this is not only about these pandas anymore, but the whole system that now protects over 8,000 of other rare species, including golden snub nosed monkey and snow leopard and all the other animals falling into local biodiversity as well.

更棒的是，当地社区也参与到了让这个体系为他们服务的故事中。

So even better is that local communities are part of the story of making this work for them.

比如，他们把自家房屋改造成生态旅游设施，吸引来自世界各地的人们来到成都，与大熊猫共度美好时光。

Like, they adapt their houses into ecotourism, attracting people from all across the world to come to Chengdu and have a good time with the pandas there.

酷。

Cool.

对。

Yeah.

不过，并不是中国所有的动物园都规模宏大。

Not every zoo in China though is huge and grand.

对吧？

Right?

有些规模比较小。

Some of them are on the smaller side.

是的。

Yeah.

去年我去中国西南部的贵州时，真想去参观一个动物园，但没机会去成。

There is one that I really wanted to visit in in Southwest China's Guizhou last year when I was there, but really didn't get a chance to.

它叫凯里。

It's called Kaili.

而且，这个动物园被称为历史上最朴素的动物园——凯里动物园。

Also, the zoo is called the humblest zoo in history, the Kaili zoo.

它规模相对较小，远未达到国家级水平。

It's relatively smaller, not really on the national scale.

这里有20多种国家保护动物，但最令人感动的是，它的馆长是一位70岁的退休小学校长，他把全部退休金都花在了照顾这些动物身上。

There are more than 20 species of national protected animals, but the highlight is that its director is a 70 year old retired school principal who really spent his own his all of his pension, personal pension on taking care of all the animals there.

天哪。

Go wow.

所以这是他个人的动物园吗？

So it's it's his own personal zoo?

某种程度上，他是以他哥哥的名义在照料这里，但没错，他既是馆长，也是负责人，还是这些动物的饲养员。

In a way, he's taking care of it in the name of his brother, but, yeah, that he is the the curator, the director, and also the the the caretaker of those animals.

他说过一句话，非常感人。

There's one line that he said that's really touching.

我不能挨饿，但我绝不会让这些我照顾的动物挨饿。

I can't starve, but I will never starve these animals that I'm taking care of.

这深深触动了中国众多爱动物的人，他们愿意支付仅21元的门票，只为参观他那座小小的私人动物园。

And that really rings a bell to a lot of animal lovers across China paying for the only 21 ticket just to have a visit in his private little zoo.

我认为，即使这座动物园规模不大、也没有最稀有的动物，人们依然排着队想去参观。

I think people lined up for right now to to visit this zoo even though it's not the grandest or have the rarest animals.

他们在社交媒体上变得非常有名。

They got really famous on social media.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

但我认为，中国还有一座动物园也一度成为网络热点。

But I think there is another zoo that's really becoming sort of online sensation at some point in China as well.

它向我们展示了动物园发展的一种全新路径。

It's telling us about a new a new path of development when it comes to zoos.

我想你提到的是南京所谓的迪士尼乐园。

I think you're mentioning the so called Disneyland of Nanjing.

对吧？

Right?

如今，真正吸引年轻人在社交媒体上关注的是南京红山森林动物园。

It's the Nanjing Hongshan Forest Zoo that really captured young people on social media nowadays.

它位于南京市中心的红山森林动物园，已成为一种巨大的文化现象，2024年吸引了约800万游客。

It's in the heart of Nanjing in the Hongshan Forest Zoo, and it's becoming a massive cultural phenomenon attracting approximately 8,000,000 visitors back in 2024.

但与传统动物园不同，红山动物园的核心理念是：动物才是真正的主人，而你们只是访客。

But unlike the traditional idea of zoo, the Hongshan operates on the core principle that the animals are the real hosts, and you guys are just visitors.

我们是平等的。

You guys we are equal.

你们是在造访动物的家。

You're visiting the animal's home.

动物园园长沈志军致力于逐步改变公众对动物园应有的传统认知，他曾在一个采访中这样说：

And the zoo director, Shin Zhijun, aims to gradually change the public traditional perception of what a zoo should be, and here is what he once said in an interview.

我心目中的动物园，是野生动物的快乐家园。

My idea of idea zoo is a joyful home for wildlife.

你应该尽一切可能重建自然栖息地，让动物能够更自由、更舒适地生活。

You should do everything possible to recreate natural habitats so animals can live more freely and comfortably.

除了看到活泼的动物自然地行为外，我们还希望游客能理解与自然和谐共处、可持续共存的意义。

Beyond seeing lively animals behaving naturally, we also hope visitors develop a understanding of living in harmony with nature and coexisting sustainably.

每个生命都是平等的，参观动物园应该成为我们反思与自然世界关系的机会。

Every life is equal, and a visit to the zoo should be a chance for us to reflect on our relationship with the natural world.

洪山动物园的理念之所以吸引很多人，是因为它把传统动物园通常藏在后台的东西直接展现在你面前，实现了完全的透明化。

The idea of Hongshan Zoo is really capturing a lot of people because they bring what traditional zoo will usually put in the backstage in front of you, the whole total transparency.

你可以看到兽医护理，比如考拉接受治疗，大象修整蹄子，还有那些

You see veterinary care, like koalas receiving medical care, elephants getting their nails shaped, and, you know, those those

像是SPA一样的服务吗？

kind Like a of spa?

就是足部护理之类的。

Let a pedicure care or something.

总之，一切都直接呈现在你眼前。

Like, everything is just in front of you.

他们还为动物进行全面体检，饲养员也会维护一块公告板，发布关于新生动物的新闻。

And they give this whole checkup on on on their animals and also zookeepers maintain a bulletin board featuring news on newborns.

今年我们有哪些新生动物呢？

What are the newborns that that we have this year?

还有志愿者活动、如何参与我们的活动，甚至还有已故动物的讣告，以此鼓励线上线下的人们将它们当作家人来缅怀。

Volunteering events, how you can participate in our activities, and even obituaries for animal that pass away to really encourage everyone from offline and online to remember them like family.

这类动物园通常非常擅长营造环境，让动物能够发挥其自然本能。

These types of zoos usually do a really great job at recreating an environment that allows animals to use their natural instincts.

没错。

Right.

我想他们在这里也是这么做的。

And I think that's probably what they do here too.

是的。

Yeah.

还会为老虎建造隧道，让它们在你头顶上方行走，去拜访它们的邻居。

And also to build tunnels for tigers to walk around above you, right above your head, and and visit their neighbors.

希望他们不会像人们说的那样吃掉同事。

Hopefully, not eating their co workers as they say it.

我想说：别吃同事和邻居啊，各位。

I'm like, no eating of co workers and neighbors, guys.

但没错，它们可以自由活动，从视觉上看，你能明显感觉到它们在南京红山森林动物园过得很开心。

But, yeah, they are free to move around and they like, visually, you can just tell they enjoy their their lives in the Hongshan Forest Zoo.

而且，我曾经在去南京的时候想进这家动物园，但它实在太受欢迎了。

And also, think that zoo I tried to get into that zoo when I visited Nanjing at one point, but it was just so popular.

是的。

Right.

很难进去。

It's difficult to get in.

很难进去。

Hard to get in.

但我认为，对游客来说另一个非常吸引人的地方是，它们在动物园有限的空间内重建了自然环境，让不同物种共同生活。

But I think the the the also another thing that's very attractive to visitors is that they're creating this recreating nature within the very limited space of zoos, like different species living together.

与传统动物园相比，如果我们看到猴子，就只会看到猴子在那个区域。

And instead of compared to traditional zoos, it's like if we were seeing monkeys, we're only seeing monkeys in that section

嗯。

Mhmm.

而蛇就只在这一区，是的。

And only snakes in this Yeah.

但它们让不同物种能够共存、一起生活。

But they are having, like, different species when they can to coexit to co live with one another.

从考古发现到现代动物园，玉山，这个故事为什么对你如此重要？

So from the archaeological discovery to modern day zoos, Yushan, why does this story matter to you so much?

因为我们看到，动物反映了我们自身。

Because we see the fact that animals reflect who we are.

而如今，这越来越意味着在伦理和保护方面都要有所关注。

And really today, it increasingly means to care to on the ethics part and also on protection part.

它不断提醒我们，随着时间推移，我们的态度究竟发生了怎样的变化，也许这正是最重要的发现——我们终究只是这个生态系统的一部分。

And it reminds us continuously that what's really changed in our attitude over time, and maybe that's the most important discovery of all that we are just part of this ecosystem after all.

说得好。

Well said.

接下来，我们今天的话题讨论就到这里结束。

And with that, we will finish up today's roundtable.

非常感谢你们今天抽出时间参与我们的讨论。

Thank you so much for spending your time with us today.

我是史蒂夫。

I'm Steve.

对于玉山和费费，我们感谢你们带来这一期节目，也期待你们能回到下一期。

For Yushan and Fei Fei, we thank you for this episode and ask you to come back to the next one too.

再见。

Bye bye.