中国的森林大悖论

讨论推动世界运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这里是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

事实上，中国自上世纪七十年代以来已种植近2000亿棵树，这是历史上规模最大的绿化行动。

China has planted nearly 200,000,000,000 trees since the nineteen seventies, the largest green campaign in history as a matter of fact.

但科学家们现在发现，这些新生的广袤森林正在显著改变国家的水资源供给。

But scientists are now discovering these massive new forests are dramatically altering the country's water supply.

为此，中国正在全国范围内率先推行智慧节水林业系统。

In response, China is now pioneering a nationwide water smart forestry system.

这个故事讲述了一项全球气候解决方案如何为更干旱、更炎热的世界进行重新设计。

It's a story of how a global climate solution is being reengineered for a drier, hotter world.

我们正在北京为您现场报道。

We're live from Beijing.

这里是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

我是史蒂夫。

I'm Steve.

非常感谢你今天和我们在一起。

Thank you so much for being with us today.

今天的节目，我和菲菲、雨珊一起主持。

And for the show, I'm with Fei Fei and Yushan.

首先。

First up.

几十年来，当我们谈论气候行动时，植树造林总是标准答案。

For decades, when we talk about climate action, trees are the universal answer.

更多的树意味着吸收更多二氧化碳、更健康的空气和更绿的景观。

More trees mean more carbon absorbed, healthier air, and greener landscapes.

自上世纪七十年代以来，没有哪个国家比中国更认真对待这项使命。

Nobody has taken this mission more seriously than China since the nineteen seventies.

中国开展了史上最大规模的生态工程，种植了约1860亿棵树，这个数字令人震撼。

The nation has embarked on the largest ecological engineering project in history, planting an estimated and mind blowing 186,000,000,000 trees.

这是一项令人震惊的地球保护行动。

That is a staggering act of planetary preservation.

然而，最近的科学分析揭示了这一绿色成功故事背后惊人的隐性代价。

However, recent scientific analysis reveals a shocking hidden cost to this green success story.

大规模的新造林从根本上改变了全国尤其是北方干旱地区的水资源分布格局。

The sheer volume of new forests has fundamentally altered the distribution of water across the country, particularly in the northern arid regions.

我们是否可能在解决一个环境危机的同时不引发另一个危机？

It is possible or is not to solve one environmental crisis without triggering another?

这是个值得深思的问题。

It's a valid question.

我们将解析中国绿色行动的史无前例规模，并探讨其对国家供水系统影响的发现。

We'll break down the unprecedented scale of China's green initiatives and also explore the findings about its impact on the country's water supply.

这确实是个非常非常有趣的故事。

This is a really really interesting story.

一个重大问题得到解决的同时，却意外引发了另一个问题。

One problem, one major problem being solved has somehow created another.

不过，我们先从地理知识说起。

But let's start with a bit of geography.

玉山和菲菲，下午好。

Yushan and Fei Fei, good afternoon to you both.

嗯。

Yeah.

这里是中国的一些地理情况。

A bit of geography from here in China.

我们具体在讨论哪些地区？那里的土地类型是什么？

Which areas are we talking about, and what type of land do they have there?

为什么需要采取如此极端的措施？

And why did this require such a drastic action?

哇。

Wow.

这真是一步到位提了好多问题啊。

That's many questions in one step.

我把问题打包在一起了，是吧？

I bundled them, didn't I?

是的。

Yeah.

首先，这主要发生在中国北方地区，也就是你提到的整个项目实施的区域。

To start with, this happens mainly in the Northern part of China where this whole project you mentioned took place.

而且它确实可以持续，实际上也确实如此。

And it it can span over well, actually, it did.

它确实跨越了几十年的时间。

It does span over decades.

但要理解这一点，

But to understand this is

几乎半个世纪了。

Half a century almost.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

还有更多。

More.

但为了更好地理解这一点，我们得专门聚焦中国北方地区，看看那里发生了什么。

But in order to understand this better, we kinda have to just look specifically at Northern China, and let's just see what's going on there.

因此，主要关注区域就在那里，尤其是最低的高原地区。

So the primary region of focus is there, and it's particularly in the lowest plateau.

这片广袤的高原覆盖面积超过64万平方公里，由于历史上环境退化严重，中国最集中的生态保护工作都集中于此。

So this massive plateau, it covers over 640,000 square kilometers, and it's where China's most intensive conservation efforts have been concentrated due to historic environmental degradation.

这片土地最显著的特征就是在干旱半干旱气候下土壤极易流失，也就是说这里非常非常干燥。

In this land, it is particularly characterized by highly vulnerable losses of soil in an arid and semi arid climate, meaning that it's very, very dry.

我们所说的黄土，实际上指的是被风吹积的细颗粒粉砂。

And that's what we call loess is actually referring to the fine wind blown silt.

是的。

Yeah.

这是最表层

It's the top the top layer

对。

Yeah.

是沙子的表层，对吧，容易被风吹走。

Of sand, right, that's easily blown around.

嗯，不一定是沙子。

Well, not necessarily sand.

还包括土壤。

It's also soil.

只是非常松散，容易飞扬，在某些情况下看起来像沙子。

It's just very loose and easily flying away and looks like can look like sand in some cases.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

这种土壤极其松散、粉质，在缺乏植被固着时极易遭受严重的风蚀和水蚀，使得整个地区天然地容易受到荒漠化影响并遭受其害。

And this soil is incredibly loose, silty, and prone to severe wind and water erosion when not anchored by vegetation, making this whole area by nature easily affected by affected by and suffer from desertification.

是的。

Yes.

而且，

And also,

你知道，当我们谈论最低的高原时，我认为另一个标志性的事物就是黄河。

you know, when it when we are talking about the lowest plateau, I think one of the most another landmark thing is the Yellow River.

它流经这片高原。

Passes through this plateau.

这片高原有着一千多年的农耕历史，采用非常粗放的耕作方式。

And it the the plateau has a history of over 1,000 over one thousand years of farming methods, very extensive farming methods in this area.

所以你能理解为什么土地退化到这种程度，形成了这种沙尘。

So you can see why the land is so so so degraded to the level that the the sort of the dust.

这是农民们年复一年的砍伐森林造成的，使得土壤完全暴露在外。

So it was it was years and years and years years of deforestation by the farmers, and that left that soil completely exposed.

这就是为什么我们需要重新植树，因为正如你所说，这些泥沙极易被吹散，我想我们稍后会详细讨论，为什么这对附近城市造成如此严重的问题？

And that's why we saw the need for trees to come again because that silt, easily blown as you said, and I guess we'll get into it in a little bit, And why that's such a a problem for for nearby cities?

首先，十几年前

Well, the first thing is a few years more than ten years ago,

我认为

I think

华北最著名的自然特征之一就是沙尘暴

that one of the most famous nature feature of Northern China is the sand storms.

是的

Yeah.

每年会发生十几次，尤其是在春季

It happens more than a dozen times a year, especially during the spring.

大量的沙尘基本上会吞没城市和村庄

And the the the massive sand basically engulfs cities and villages.

比如北京和天津这样的城市

For example, in the cities of Beijing and Tianjin.

嗯

Mhmm.

你能感受到并看到那些沙尘暴。

You can feel and see those sandstorms.

所以我来自内蒙古，在那段时期，我们那里被称为沙尘暴的发源地，仅仅因为那里有沙漠和大量退化的土地。

And so where I'm from in Mongolia is during that time, we were called the birthplace of sandstorms simply because of the deserts and a lot of degraded land that we have.

据说是因为蒙古境内这些退化的土地导致了沙尘暴。

And it said it was said that it is in Mongolia and because of this degraded land caused the sandstorms.

是的。

Yeah.

我在北京只待了一年，还没遇到过沙尘暴。

So I've only been in Beijing for a year, but I haven't seen a sandstorm.

我猜它们已经不再来了。

I'm guessing that they don't come anymore.

其实还是时不时会有的。

Well, from time to time still.

我是说，沙尘暴仍然是自然现象的一部分。

I mean, sandstorm is still a part of the nature.

现在一年也就十来次了。

It's just not a dozen times a year.

嗯。

Mhmm.

让我这样描述吧。

Let me describe it this way.

回想2012年我刚上初中时，我每天都是骑自行车去学校的。

So back in 2012, when I first got into junior high, I used to cycle, like, take bicycle and go to my school on a daily basis.

每年春天，三月下旬到四五月间那段时间，我们都知道沙尘暴要来了。

And every time when it's springtime, April, early May, or late March, around that time of the year, we know that this is gonna come.

有些早晨我六七点醒来，会看到整片天空都是黄色的。

There will be mornings when I wake up at six, 7AM in the morning and then see the whole sky in color yellow.

那时我们就知道沙尘暴要来了，学校也会提醒我们戴口罩上学，以防吸入大量沙尘。

And we know that that's when the sandstorm is coming and we we are kind of warned by the school that we need to wear a mask to come to school because of, you know, the potential of inhaling in a lot of sand.

那时候你出门的话，能见度怎么样？

When you would go outside at that time, how was visibility?

我是说，你能看清面前的东西吗？

I mean, could you see in front of your face?

情况有多糟糕？

How how bad was it?

我只是想

I'm just trying to

了解一下。

get an idea.

它不像雾那么浓。

It's not as so intense as the fog.

你仍然能看清道路、交通信号灯等一切。

You you can still see the road, see the traffic light and everything.

嗯。

Mhmm.

虽然不像晴天那样能看到几百米远，但至少在路上还是能看清的。

Perhaps not from like hundreds of meters away like a clear day, but it's still visible on the road at least.

唯一的问题是你很容易喉咙不适。

And the only thing is you will have throat issues very easily.

嗯。

Mhmm.

持续吸入一到两天后。

After two to one to two days, keep on inhaling it.

所以学校和公共场所都会有公告建议市民佩戴口罩。

And that's why schools and, you know, just in public in general, there are announcements recommending for citizens to wear masks.

这基本上算是年度例行事件了。

And it's kind of expected on an annual base.

因此，这曾是个重大的公共卫生问题。

So therefore, it was a it was a big public health issue.

那时候确实如此。

Back then, yes.

对城市来说。

For for cities.

这就是为什么，我是说，要追溯到上世纪七十年代，嗯。

And that's why, I mean, going back to the nineteen seventies Mhmm.

采取了这种激进的干预措施。

This drastic intervention took place.

那正是这一切开始的时候。

That that's when it began.

对吧？

Right?

种植数十亿棵树木，是的。

The planting of the billions of trees Yeah.

作为某种防护性的绿色屏障。

To act as kind of a protective green barrier.

是的。

Yes.

我们说的是中国北方，不仅指黄土高原，还包括中国大约13个省份和地区，像内蒙古、新疆，以及高原所在的山西和甘肃等地。

We're talking about Northern China, not only about the Lois Plateau, but also in basically 13, I think, provinces and regions in China, including in Mongolia, Xinjiang and also Shanxi and Gansu where the plateau is located.

该项目实际上是在1978年正式启动的。

And the project actually started precisely in 1978.

他们开始种植这些树木，计划分八个阶段实施，直至2050年。

And they started to plant these trees, and it was carried out supposed to carry it out in like eight phases till 2050.

所以我们仍处于这项大规模植树计划的中间阶段，目前我认为正处于第六阶段。

So we're still in the middle of this massive tree planting program where I think we're now in the sixth phase.

是的。

Yeah.

它将在2030年结束。

It will end in 2030.

在过去的近五十年里，该项目已恢复了中国约47%的陆地面积，并修复了约90%先前荒漠化的土地。

And so over the past close to fifty years, they've the project has restored about 70 47% of China's land area and restored about 90% of the previously decertified land.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为这个面积基本上相当于日本和韩国的总和。

And that's the area, I think, is basically what what Japan and South Korea combined.

所以这是一个极其庞大的工程。

So it's a massive, massive project.

1860亿人的队伍。

A 186,000,000,000 troops.

这规模简直难以想象。

That's kind of hard to even imagine what that looks like.

但如果你能找到他们称之为'绿色长城'的视频。

But if you do find videos of what they call they call it the Great Green Wall.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

绿色长城。

The Great Green Wall.

总长2800英里。

It's 2,800 miles in total.

那大约是4000多公里，甚至更长。

That's about 4,000 some kilometers, if not more.

它就是字面意思那样。

And it's just it's exactly what it says it is.

这是一道伟大的绿色长城，由1860亿棵树组成，被称为造林工程。

It is a great green wall, a 186,000,000,000 trees, and it's called a forestation.

对吧？

Right?

这与森林砍伐正好相反。

That's the opposite of deforestation.

而这个计划将在2030年完成。

And this, is going to end in 2030.

所以从七十年代开始直到2030年的计划是，尽可能覆盖更多区域来解决荒漠化问题。

So the plan back in the seventies up until, 2030 was to cover, I guess, as much as they could to solve the problem of decertification.

当地农民...还有个针对农民的退耕还林计划之类的

And the farmers the farmers there was also a program directed at the farmers to grain grain for green or something like

那个？

that?

我想在中文里，这基本上被称为退耕还林。

I think in Chinese, it's called basically to quit farming and restore forests.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这个项目实际上官方名称叫做'三北防护林工程'，因为它主要针对华北、西北和东北地区。

And the program called SANBEE, actually, the official name of it, Three North Shelter Belt Program because it basically targeting North China, Northwest China, and Northeast China.

所以叫三北。

So the three North.

而且你知道，这些地区过去也有很多人生活在贫困中。

And as part of you know, in this area is also a lot of people living in poverty in the past as well.

所以政府试图通过这个项目实现的另一个目标，是帮助这些地区的农民寻找其他生计，而不仅仅是务农。

So what the government is trying to do, what the program is also has achieved is also helping farmers in these areas to look for other livelihoods, not just by only farming.

比如在黄土高原上，几百年来他们的主要生计不是放牧就是耕种。

You know, for example, on the Loews Plateau for hundreds of years, I think their main livelihood is either herding or farming.

这会给土地带来巨大负担，尤其是考虑到人口增长等因素。

And that can put a great burden on, you know, the land land area, especially considering, you know, population growth and so on and so forth.

因此现在，作为项目的一部分，他们鼓励农民种植树木，并以此谋生。

So now, I think as part of the program, for example, they are encouraging farmers to, for example, planting trees and make a living with those trees.

例如，你可以种植果树或中草药，这样能一举两得甚至一箭三雕。

For example, you can plant fruit trees or Chinese herbs, which you can sort of kill two birds with one stone or kill three birds.

对，确实。

Good for the yeah.

既有利于环境，又能改善生计。

Good for the environment and good for your livelihood.

所以我认为退耕还林项目也是这个宏大的绿色长城工程的一部分。

That's why I think the Grain for Green program is also part of this massive Great Green Wall program as well.

种植这么多树木，过去几十年确实产生了一些可量化的积极成果。

So with the planting of that many trees, there were some quite quantifiable positive outcomes that came from the previous decades.

具体有哪些成果呢？

What were some of those?

是的。

Yeah.

我们取得的一个重大成果或环境胜利，就是中国的森林覆盖率自上世纪70年代以来几乎翻了一番。

One major outcome or environmental victories that we've received, it has to be China's forest coverage that has nearly doubled since back in nineteen seventies.

从1978年的仅12%增长到如今的约23%。

That's rising from just 12% in 1978 to about 23% today.

这是一个巨大的转变，也显著标志着国家在扭转数十年森林砍伐方面取得的进展。

So it's a dramatic shift and a major mark of how far the country has been through in reversing decades of deforestation.

从一个城市居民的个人视角来看，就是春季的沙尘暴越来越少了。

And from a personal city dweller view point of view is that there are less and less sandstorm coming in springtime.

如果有的话，我们会说，哦，它又来了。

If there is one, we'll say, oh, it's coming again.

但老朋友，好久不

But old friend, long time no

见。

see.

是啊。

Yeah.

以前是宿舍。

It used to be the dorm.

差不多吧。

Something like that.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

而且正如我提到的，很多著名的标志性农产品也是从这个项目中涌现出来的。

And also, I think, as I mentioned, a lot of famous well, I think landmark agricultural products are also emerged from this program.

比如新疆的阿克苏苹果，就是这些大规模造林工程的成果之一。

For example, the apples, Akasu apples from Xinjiang is also a part one of the results coming from these massive afforestation program as well.

哦，所以这些产品已经在全国范围内小有名气了？

Oh, so those have become those have become kind of famous nationwide then?

是的。

Yes.

这些苹果非常、非常甜。

The apples are very, very sweet.

对。

Yeah.

所以种植所有这些树木会包括改善空气质量。

So this the planting of all these trees would include include the improved air quality.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当地气候也会有所改善。

The local climates would have improved as well.

农民们现在的做法与过去不同了，对吧。

The farmers are doing things differently than they would have done in the past Right.

但仍然在做一些相当不错的事情。

Yet still doing some pretty good things.

显然，这些都是显而易见的一些好处。

So that's obviously those are obviously some of the benefits.

但最近有科学研究发现了一个问题。

But there has been some recent scientific research that has identified a problem.

那是什么问题呢？

What is that problem?

尽管这些成就非常重要，特别是在控制土壤侵蚀方面，但一个科学家团队最近开始研究这些大规模植树活动的长期生态可持续性，特别是新造林对中国区域水循环的影响。

So while these successes are very important, particularly in controlling soil erosion, A team of scientists recently began to look at look into the long term ecological sustainability of these massive tree planting efforts, specifically in the the its impact of the few of the new forests on China's regional water cycle.

他们发现了一个意料之外的水资源管理挑战。

So they identified an unexpected water management challenge.

种植的规模之大及最初采用的方法，特别是树种选择和干旱高原地区的种植密度，导致了全国水资源分配的重大变化。

The sheer scale and initial methodology of the planting, particularly the species selection and density on the arid lowest plateau led to a significant shift in how water is distributed across the country.

他们发现许多种植的树木是高耗水树种，如杨树和松树。

So what they found is that many of the trees planted were high water use species like poplar and pines.

这些树木虽然生长迅速，但它们并非种植所在的干旱和半干旱地区的原生树种。

So these trees, while fast growing, they're not native to the arid and semi arid regions where they were planted.

实际上，它们所需的水量远超当地降雨或原生植被能可持续提供的量。

And they actually require far more water than the local rainfall or local vegetation and could they could sustainably provide.

是的。

Yeah.

它们会从土壤中吸取更多的水分。

So what they do is is that they suck in more water from the soil.

同时，还改变了水分在地表上下流动的方式。

And in the meantime, kinda change how water goes underground and or above the ground as well.

对。

Yes.

我认为另一个核心矛盾是，他们发现系统中不同水资源的重新分配。

Another central conflict, I think, is that they found a redistribution of different waters in the system.

例如，他们提到的蓝水，主要指储存在河流、湖泊和地下水中的水资源。

For example, they they they have this blue water, which is basically water stored in rivers, lakes and groundwater.

也就是我们容易获取和使用的水。

And, you know, the the water that we can easily access and use.

嗯。

Mhmm.

此外还有绿水，即储存在土壤中并通过植物蒸散发过程释放到大气中的水分。

And there are also green water, which is water water held in the soil and then released into the atmosphere by plants through a process called evaporotranspiration.

因此绿水在我们人眼中不那么明显。

So the green water is less apparent in our human eyes.

也就是说，新森林正从地下汲取更多水分。嗯。

So that means that the new forests were drawing a lot more moisture out of the ground Mhmm.

当然也会将其重新释放回大气中。

And also releasing it back into the atmosphere, obviously.

当这种情况发生时，可供我们和农民使用的水资源就减少了。

And when that happens, it reduces the water that's available for us and for farmers too.

嗯。

Mhmm.

具体而言，研究发现整个高原地区的蒸散发量增加了32%。

And specifically, the study found that evapotranspiration increased by 32% across the plateau.

这个增长幅度相当显著。

That is a significant increase.

因此，当这种由水分亏缺引发的蒸散发量增加时，与之相连的河流就会出问题。

So when you have that increase in that type of evapotranspiration created by that water deficit, then you have a problem with the connected rivers.

那么具体是如何运作的呢？

So how does that exactly work?

嗯，我认为蒸散量的增加导致中国北方部分地区比以往更加干旱。

Well, the the increase in the evapotranspiration is causing, I think, parts of the Northern China more dry drier than before.

同时，这也使得像西藏和青海高原这样的地区变得更加湿润。

And also, it's making regions, for example, on the Tibet Tibet and Qinghai Xizang and Qinghai Plateau that is becoming humid, more humid.

实际上我们观察到，青藏高原上的湖泊增多了，降雨量也增加了。

We've actually seen that on the plateau of Xizang and Qinghai, there are more lakes, more rainfalls.

最终形成了更多绿地，我想当地居民对此非常欢迎。

So ending into more greens, which is I think local residents really welcome.

但这也意味着，我们过去对中国本土气候的认知正在发生改变。

But that also means that what we used to study, what we used to know about local climate here in China is changing.

嗯

Mhmm.

这就引出了一个问题：未来我们该如何应对？

So that posed, you know, questions into what should we do in the future after?

比如下一步，当我们尝试植树时该怎么做？

What's the next, for example, step when we're trying to plant trees?

具体来说，我们应该种植什么种类的树？在哪里种植？

What what specifically, kind of trees should we plant and where should we plant?

附近的湖泊与河流也因此无法获得它们以往的水源补给

So the lakes and the rivers nearby, they weren't getting the water supply that they were used to either because of that same because of the same reason

嗯

Mhmm.

我是说，我们谈论的是1860亿棵饥渴的树木，它们正在从原本会流向附近湖泊河流的土壤中汲取水分

That the trees were just I mean, we're talking a 186,000,000,000 trees here that are thirsty, and they're taking the water out of the ground soil that would have gone to the lakes and the rivers nearby.

嗯

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是一个非常有趣且亟待解决的问题。

A a really interesting problem that obviously needs to be solved.

另一个有趣的旁注是，从该地区蒸发的水汽正朝着国家的南部地区移动。

And also another interesting kind of side note to this is that the water that evaporated from that region was heading to southern parts of the country.

那里正是青海和西藏高原的所在地。

Where the Qinghai And Shizan Plateau is is located precisely.

所以

So

因此，这些地区将会获得更多

therefore, regions would be getting more

降雨。

Rainfalls.

比它们原本应该得到的，对吧。

Than they had Right.

过去的情况可能既有利也有弊。

Previously, which might come with its benefits or its advantages and disadvantages too.

好的。

Alright.

他们已经识别出了问题，现在更大的问题可能是：如何解决这类问题？

So they've identified the problem, and now the perhaps the bigger question is how do you fix that kind of problem?

科学家们提到的一个方法是实施科学指导下的造林策略。

One thing that the scientists mentioned is to implement a scientifically informed afforestation strategy.

因此他们认为未来的工作必须超越目前的大规模植树运动，转而采用尊重区域生态平衡的策略。

So future efforts they consider must move beyond mass planting campaigns as we do now and in the meantime adopt a strategy that respects the regional ecological balance.

这意味着要优先创建多样化的韧性生态系统，而非单一物种、高密度的单一树种或少数几种树木的单一栽培。

And this means prioritizing the creation of diverse resilient ecosystem over single species, high density, one kind of tree or monocultures and a few particular type of trees.

这也引出了山水林田湖草一体化保护和系统治理的概念，即将各种不同类型的景观纳入一个整体系统。

So this also calls the concept of integrated protection and systematic governance of mountains, of rivers, of forest, farmland, lakes, just various different kind of landscapes in one holistic system.

对中国科学家而言，这代表着认知上的进步：既认识到每个生态系统在构建可持续健康环境中都扮演着不可或缺的角色，也反映出思维方式的转变——从单纯关注植树数量和彻底消除沙漠，转向接受更全面的可持续种植框架。

So for Chinese scientists, this represents a learning curve of both recognizing that each of these ecosystem plays an indispensable role in sustainable were healthy in building sustainable and healthy environment, but also that this reflects a shift in mindset from focusing just on planting trees and planting as many as possible to trying to eliminate desert altogether, to embrace this more holistic framework of just how sustainably that we're planting

我们的树木。

our trees.

因此，这不仅仅是种植越来越多的树。

So therefore, it's not about just planting more and more and more trees.

不再是了。

Not anymore.

关键在于种植正确类型的树木。

It's about planting the right types of trees.

在正确的地方。

In the right place.

没错。

Yeah.

这是个独特的问题，因为你不可能砍掉1860亿棵树，然后重新种植1860亿棵树来试图解决问题。

It's a unique problem because it's not like you can go and cut down a 186,000,000,000 trees and then replant a 186,000,000,000 more to to try to fix the problem.

你必须边处理边应对。

You have to deal you have to deal with it kind of as you as you go.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我猜他们会种植的树种，不再是之前提到的杨树和松树，而是会更注重本地的原生树种？

So the types of species that they'll plant, I'm guessing, and instead of, I think you said it was poplars and and pines before, they'll focus more on trees that are native to the region?

没错。

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

尤其是杨树。

Especially poplar.

我认为过去在植树计划中，杨树是各地区非常普遍的选择。

I think in the past during the tree planting program, poplar is very popular choice among different regions.

而且我记得很多科学家称它为'抽水机'。

And it's also known as I think it's called water pump by a lot of scientists.

基本上，它需要大量水分。

Basically, it needs a lot of water.

这些树被称为水泵吗？

The the trees are called water pumps?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以这在干旱地区并不合适，比如新疆，他们本来水资源就匮乏。

So that that is is is not suitable for arid areas, for example, like Xinjiang, which basically, they they don't have a lot of water in the beginning.

所以他们会

So they'll

而且天上降下的任何雨水

And and any water that falls from the sky

都会被吸走

Will be will be sucked

那些树可真贪婪。

Those trees are gonna be greedy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

所以它吸走了所有的水分，你知道，也让农业变得非常困难。

So it sucked up all the water and making, you know, farming also very difficult as well.

而且我认为现在很多中国科学家正在研究天然森林，那里有本地物种。

So and also I think a lot of Chinese scientists are now looking at, you know, natural forests, where the local species are.

另一方面，另一位中国科学家卢琦也在强调，沙漠和沙尘暴在我们的自然系统中也有其作用。

And on the other side, I think another Chinese scientist called Lu Qi, he's also emphasizing, you know, that deserts and sandstorms also have their role in our nature systems.

例如，当我们考虑通过种植这些树木来消除沙尘暴时。

For example, when we are thinking about by planting these amount of trees, we're thinking about eliminating sandstorms.

但沙尘暴一直存在于地球上，对吧。

But sandstorms have always been on the earth Right.

几个世纪以来都是如此。

For centuries.

但它们究竟带来了什么好处呢？

But what benefit do they bring though?

他举例说，沙尘暴的作用是可以降低地球某些表面的温度。

He's for example, he said the roles of sandstorms, it can cool down some parts of the earth's surfaces.

它还能帮助转移或调动部分水分，促进云层形成，这对不同地区的降雨非常重要。

It can also help, you know, transition or mobilize some of the waters and help forming, for example, clouds, which is very important for for the rainfalls in different regions.

他还提到有个观点叫'撒哈拉沙尘滋养亚马逊雨林'。

And, also, he said there was an idea called Sahara dust nourishes the Amazon Rainforest.

从科学角度看这是合理的，因为沙尘暴能输送大量铁等肥沃元素，同时消耗大量温室气体排放，并作为海洋碳封存的催化剂和加速剂。

It makes sense scientifically, basically because the the sandstorms can transform a lot of fertilizing elements, for example, like iron, can be carried by the dusts by huge amounts and then also consuming a lot of the greenhouse gas emissions and acting as a catalyst and accelerator of ocean carbon sequestration.

这意味着在我们努力减少碳排放的同时，沙尘暴这类自然现象也在贡献力量。

Meaning, we are trying to cut back on our carbon emissions, these natural phenomenon like sandstorms are also contributing in the efforts as well.

哇。

Wow.

这就是蝴蝶效应啊。

There's your butterfly effect Yes.

从地理角度来说。

Geographically speaking.

所以当

So when

我们在考虑是否应该消除沙漠和沙尘暴时，也许即便真的实现了，也不代表环境会更健康。

we are thinking about, you know, we should, you know, eliminate deserts and sandstorms, maybe if we really achieved that, it doesn't mean we have a healthier environment.

我们仍然需要这些沙漠和沙尘暴。

We still need those deserts and sandstorms.

我以前从没想过这一点。

I've never thought about that before.

确实。

True.

我是说，当我了解到这个故事时，所有这些信息对我来说都是全新的，我觉得非常迷人，因为这正是地球的奇妙之处。

I've only considered I mean, when when I learned about this story, all of this information was new to me and I just found it so fascinating because, yes, it is just the planet.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，在北京和邻近的天津，大约十五年前，沙尘暴问题严重到需要向公众发布预警的程度。

I mean, here in Beijing and in in neighboring Tianjin, the problem of these sandstorms back in, you know, fifteen years ago or so was to the point where there would be a warning to the public.

表面上看来，这似乎只是个需要解决的问题，解决后就能翻篇。

So seemingly on the surface, that just seems like a problem that needs a solution and then we can move on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但当我们试图解决地球的一个问题时，反而可能引发一个始料未及的新问题。

But when we try to solve a problem of the planet, then we thereby create a problem that was perhaps unforeseen.

同样地，当我们针对地球自然现象制定解决方案时——比如大量植树

And also, when we create a solution to a natural part of the planet like planting more trees

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们就会制造出某种意料之外的问题。

We create a problem that was somehow unforeseen.

直到此刻我才第一次意识到自然与经济之间竟存在这种关联。

I've never until this moment right now seen a connection between nature and economics.

但经济运作方式也类似。

But economics kind of functions the same.

解决一个问题，又会产生另一个问题。

You fix one problem, you create another.

你

You

解决那个问题后，又会引发新的问题。

fix that, and then you create another.

我从未以这种方式思考过自然。

I've never thought of nature that way.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

而且我认为另一个非常有趣的例子来自另一位中国科学家。

And I I think another very interesting example is by another Chinese scientist.

他在一次演讲中确实解释过，野火和融雪如何也在促进许多天然森林的生长。

He actually explained in one of his speeches about how, you know, wildfires and snow melts are helping grow a lot of the natural forests as well.

因此，当我们生活在气候变暖的环境中时，比如春季变暖导致积雪减少，融雪量也随之下降。

So when we are, for example, living in a warming climate, when snows are no longer for example, the the spring is getting warmer, there is less snow melt.

有些树木将无法生长，因为它们需要那种温度变化来促使种子形成。

Some trees won't grow because they need that temperature change for them to create their seeds.

若没有这种剧烈变化，它们的种子就无法发育，意味着新森林无法繁衍。

And without that drastic change, they cannot You know, their seeds cannot grow, meaning new forest cannot be grown.

甚至连天然森林也难以维持，因为我们缺少了这些环境变化。

Even the natural forest cannot be sustained because we lack of these changes in the environment.

这里让我感到非常好奇。

Here's where it got me really curious.

比如，火是怎么起到帮助作用的？

Like, how do fire help?

我们总是害怕山火烧毁树木和森林，但火实际上是如何对此做出贡献的呢？

We always fear mountain fires burning trees and forest down, but how do fire actually contribute to that?

我想这也是橄榄林生态系统的一部分，特别是大面积森林，火灾往往会在一年中的特定时段发生。

It's also part of I guess, in an olive forest, especially large amount of forest, it happens that the fire will happen in in certain periods of time of the year.

当火灾烧毁这些树木的部分时，它也有助于改变，比如土壤中的真菌或环境温度。

And when the fire, for example, burn down burn down these parts of trees, it also helps changing the, you know, for example, the the funguses in the soil or the temperatures in the environment.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这些植物已经进化到能适应这些变化。

And when these changes, these plants have grown to adapt to these changes.

它们需要这种信号来告诉它们时机已到。

So they need this kind of cue to tell them, you know, this is the time.

它们可以将种子撒入土壤，种子就能生长。

You can, you know, throw your seeds into the soil and the seeds can grow.

当我们没有火灾，没有融雪时，种子就接收不到这类信号，它们就无法生长。

And when we don't have fire, when we don't have snow melts, the seeds can't receive those kind of cues and they can't they won't grow.

但如果要实施这种措施，必须采取高度可控的方式。

But if you're going to do that, you have to do that in a very controlled fashion.

否则，情况可能会失控

Otherwise, that can get out of control

确实如此

Exactly.

非常——这实际上是个大问题

Very That's actually a big problem.

我认为这是当今的全球性问题，尽管科学家知道火灾对这种森林环境至关重要

I think a global problem at these days because even though scientists know that fires is essential in this forest environment.

你知道，就是当你无法控制火势的时候

You can't, you know, just when you you can't control the fire.

你无法让火只烧你想烧的地方

You can't have the fire just burn the places you want them to burn.

嗯

Mhmm.

这是个重大的治理问题

And it's a big governance issue.