解读中国儿童抑郁迹象：为何"测量"方法失效

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是

This

圆桌论坛。

is Roundtable.

您正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're listening to Roundtable.

今天我和玉山、Fei Fei 一起主持。

I'm Steve Hatherley today with Yushan and Fei Fei.

接下来，一个令人震惊的事实。

Coming up, a startling fact.

中国青少年抑郁的报告率在百分之四到百分之四十一之间。

Reported rates of youth depression in China range from four percent to forty one percent.

你现在可能觉得这说不通，而你说得对。

Now you're probably thinking that doesn't make any sense, and you're right.

确实如此。

It doesn't.

这是一个巨大的差距，而新的研究表明，诊断工具本身存在根本性缺陷。

It's a huge gap, And new research points to a fundamental flaw in the diagnostic tools themselves.

这对治疗和政策有重大影响，我们将全面了解这一点。

It has major implications for treatment and policy and we're gonna learn all about it.

之后，我们会聊一个轻松一点的话题，或者真的轻松吗？

After that, a bit of a lighter topic or is it?

想象一下，一个微小的文明正 thriving 在你的袜子里，当你再次穿上它们时，你不仅仅是在穿洗过的衣服，而是在宣战细菌。

Picture this, a tiny civilization is thriving in your socks and when you wear them again, you're not just putting on laundry, you're declaring a bacterial war.

我们会详细解释那里究竟发生了什么，以及为什么你的洗衣机在洗袜子时可能没有尽到职责。

We'll cover exactly what's going on down there and why your washing machine may not be doing its job when washing your socks.

我们的播客听众，也就是你们，可以在苹果播客上找到我们——Roundtable China。

Our podcast listeners, that's you, can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts.

别忘了，我们也非常期待听到你们的声音。

And don't forget, we love hearing your voice as well.

所以，你应该这样做。

So here's what you do.

把你对本节目讨论内容的想法录成语音，发送到 roundtable podcast at qq.com。

You send your voice notes with your thoughts on any of the things that we discuss here on the program to roundtable podcast at qq.com.

再次提醒，发送到 roundtable podcast at qq.com。

Once again, roundtable podcast at qq.com.

尽管中国对儿童和青少年心理健康的关注日益增加，但关于抑郁症患病率的数据却极不一致。

And now, despite growing attention to the mental health of children and adolescents in China, data on depression, depression prevalence is remarkably inconsistent.

不同研究得出的发病率范围从低至百分之四到高达百分之四十一。

Rates from different studies range from as low as four percent to as high as forty one percent.

南京师范大学与一家国家级三甲医院的最新合作研究揭示了一个被严重忽视的问题。

New collaborative research from Nanjing Normal University and a National Tertiary Hospital reveal a critical overlooked problem.

我们可能正在使用错误的工具来诊断中国青少年的抑郁症。

We may be using the wrong tools to diagnose depression in Chinese youth.

许多现有的筛查量表是为西方成年人设计的，其内容、文化相关性以及对年轻人的适用性都存在巨大差异。

Many existing screening scales were designed for Western adults and differ drastically in their content, their cultural relevance, and also their suitability for young people.

因此，同一个孩子可能被一种量表诊断为抑郁，而被另一种量表诊断为非抑郁。

Consequently, the same child could be classified as depressed by one scale and not depressed by another.

这项研究综合了这些见解，并探讨了它们对公共卫生、临床实践和未来政策的深远影响，这方面的影响非常多。

This research synthesizes these insights and also discusses their profound implications, there are a lot for public health, clinical practice, and future policy as well.

让我们先从问题本身说起。

Let's start with the problem as well.

我的意思是，百分之四到百分之四十一。

I mean, four percent to forty one percent.

为什么这些图表无法帮助我们清晰地了解孩子们的心理健康状况？

Why are the charts not helping us here to clearly understand kids' mental health states?

首先，我认为我们需要审视中国大多数诊所和医院用来诊断抑郁症的方法。

Well, first of all, I think we need to look at the methods that most of the clinics and hospitals in China are using to diagnose depression.

大多数大规模调查依赖于自我报告问卷。

Most large scale surveys rely on self reporting questionnaires.

但它们使用的是不同的工具。

But they have different tools.

例如，有些机构使用CSD的九项简版，这是一种在国际上广泛使用的筛查工具。

For example, some of them using a nine item shorter version of the CSD, a very internationally widely used screening tool.

有些则依赖于问卷。

Some of them rely on a questionnaire.

这些都是国际标准的筛查工具，但它们测量的内容并不一致。

They are standard, internationally standard screening tools, but they do not match, measure the same thing.

南京师范大学和那家医院的研究发现了这一点。

That's what the study by the Nanjing Normal University and that hospital found.

他们发现，例如，没有两种抑郁量表测量的是同一组症状。

They found, for example, not two depression scales measure the same set of symptoms.

因此，研究人员分析了440多项相关研究，检查了33种独特的抑郁量表，其中27种可以完整获取其量表内容。

So the researchers, they looked at over four forty relevant studies and they checked 33 unique depression scales and 27 of them can they can have a complete view of their scales.

他们发现，没有任何一种量表能涵盖抑郁症的全部84种症状，也没有任何一种症状出现在所有量表中。

And they found that not one single scale can cover all 84 symptoms under depression and no single symptom appear in all scales.

因此，每种量表都只捕捉了抑郁症的一部分。

So it's like every scale is capturing only a fraction of depressions.

所以这是一个问题。

So that is one issue.

另一个问题是，尽管所有量表都声称测量的是抑郁症，但它们之间共享的内容却非常少，这是同样的问题。

Another issue is that most scales share very little in common despite all claiming to measure depression, the same problem.

是的。

Yeah.

所以它们就像在看天空一样，这些量表和测量工具各自只看到天空的一小部分，一个量表看到的是天空的一块，而其他测量工具看到的则是完全不同的另一块。

So they're looking at the sky kind of and these scales and these measurement tools are looking at, you know, one scale, one measurement tool is looking at one piece of the sky and the other measurement tools are looking at a totally different piece of the sky.

它们之间的重叠非常少。

There's very little overlap

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么你会看到441%的差异。

And that's the reason that you have this 441% difference.

这很有挑战性，真的非常具有挑战性，因为抑郁症是一种非常复杂的疾病，用天空的比喻来说，它是一种看不见的星座，而每一个诊断工具都通过不同的镜头来看待它，这对所有年龄段的患者来说都不是好消息。

It's challenging, it's really really challenging because depression is a very complex, it's an invisible kind of constellation, to use the sky metaphor again, and every diagnostic tool is looking at it through a different lens, this is not good news for the patients no matter how old they are.

是的。

Yeah.

所以正如史蒂夫所说，在实践中，一个孩子可能通过量表A被归类为患者。

So that's why as Steve said that in practice somebody, a child, can be classified as a person by, for example, scale a.

但在量表B下，这个孩子完全正常。

But under scale b, that child is perfectly fine.

是的。

It's Yeah.

所以这是一个问题。

Not So that's an issue.

这是另一个问题。

Here's another one.

为什么我们要用西方成人的工具来评估中国儿童？

Why are we using Western adult tools on Chinese children?

我也觉得这非常奇怪，因为研究显示，跨文化心理学早已表明，抑郁症状在不同社会中存在差异。

That's what I found really curious too because study shows that across cultural psychology has long shown that depressive symptoms vary across different societies.

例如，在南亚，过度担忧更为常见，而在非洲和东南亚，过度思考则更为普遍。

For example, in South Asia, the worrying too much tends to be more common, while in Africa and Southeast Asia, the thinking too much is more common.

年龄差异也显示出显著的不同。

And age differences also shows quite significant difference.

例如，青少年抑郁更多表现为睡眠问题、食欲变化和精力丧失，而成人抑郁则主要表现为所谓的快感缺失，即无法体验愉悦，愉悦来自

For example, the youth depression shows more sleep problems and appetite changes, energy loss, while among adults, depression shows quite differently among the what's called the anhedonia, which is the inability to experience pleasure Pleasure, from

你只是对事物失去了兴趣。

You lose it's just the losing of interest in things.

因此，在所有这些差异以及你之前提到的27个量表中，费费在中国研究中使用的量表里，只有八个包含了年龄特异性症状，只有四个包含了文化特异性症状。

So, yeah, among all of these variations and and also the 27 scales you mentioned earlier, Fei Fei, used in the Chinese studies, only eight, according to the results, included age specific symptoms, while only four included cultural specific symptoms.

因此，最常使用的量表是SDS，这是由杜克大学的一位教授在20世纪70年代开发的。

So the most frequent used skills were the SDS that's developed by a professor from Duke University Yeah, back all the way back in 1970s.

那是自评抑郁量表，人们或患者需要回答一份包含20个项目的简短问卷。

That's the self rating depression scale, where people or patients answer a short 20 item questionnaire.

这意味着，我们虽然使用了这些所有量表，但常常将为20世纪六七十年代美国成年人设计的工具，应用于当今的中国儿童。

So that means that we are using these all of these scales, but we're often applying tools designed for another society, for American adults in the nineteen sixties to seventies to today's Chinese kids.

这也造成了这里的不匹配。

And that's something that's also creating mismatch here as well.

从我发音这些量表的方式，你能听出来我在这方面真的是个新手。

And I believe by the sound of how I was pronouncing the scales, you can tell that I'm really a newbie in this.

在我做研究的过程中，我还发现了一些非常有趣的事情。

And as I was doing the research, I found something really interesting too.

如今，当父母带孩子进行抑郁筛查时，他们会相信检测结果。

Nowadays, when parents take their kids to do screenings for depression, they believe in the result.

但根据他们使用的测试或筛查工具不同，检测出的结果也各不相同。

But based on which test or which screening tool they're using, different things are being detected.

但他们只是简单地认为这就是抑郁水平的结果。

But they just simply believe that's the result for depression level.

但情况并不总是如此。

But that's not always the case.

这里还有另一种正在使用的工具。

And there's another one in use here as well.

你提到了SDS。

You mentioned the SDS.

还有SCL-90。

There's also the SCL 90.

这就是它的名字。

That's the name of that one.

这是一个系统清单，s l 或 s c l，系统清单。

That's a system checklist, s l or s c l, system checklist.

这是一个更长的问卷。

That's a longer questionnaire.

它有90个问题。

It's 90 questions.

它询问了强迫症、人际敏感性、抑郁，以及焦虑、敌意和恐惧性焦虑等问题。

It asks about things like obsessive compulsive disorder and interpersonal sensitivity and depression, but also anxiety hostility and phobic anxiety.

这是一种用于筛查整体精神痛苦的通用工具。

That's a general screen for overall psychiatric distress.

它并不是一个专门针对抑郁的工具。

It's it's not a specific depression tool.

它只是其中的一个抑郁子量表。

It's depression subscale within it.

它只是其中的一部分。

It is just one piece of it.

这意味着我们正在使用的这些工具都是比较老旧的。

So what that means then is that we're applying the tools, and these are old.

是的。

Yeah.

它们不仅来自世界的不同地区，而且还是较旧的测量方法。

So not only are they from a different part of the world, but they're older measurements as well.

没错。

Exactly.

也正因如此，在研究中发现，有八百多名儿童被一种针对儿童的量表标记为抑郁，但同一组儿童却被另外三种不同的量表认为没有抑郁。

And also that's why in the study they find that over eight hundred children that were labeled depressed by one scale targeting children, Well, the same group of children were considered not depressed by three other different scales.

因此，对于家长和学校来说，很难判断这些问卷的可信度有多高。

So it's very difficult, think, especially for parents and schools to determine the amount of trust you can put on these questionnaires.

我并不

I don't

那我们来谈谈这一点。

Well, let's talk about that.

我的意思是，对于家长、学校以及整个社会来说，这究竟意味着什么？

I mean, for parents and for schools and just for society in general, what what does this mean now?

我们该如何利用这些信息？

What do we do with this information?

我认为，对于家长和学校来说，更直接的是，单一的抑郁问卷无法定义孩子的心理健康状况。

I think for parents and schools, it's more, like in their face, it's more direct that a single depression questionnaire cannot define the kid's mental health status.

你不能只看一个参数就得出结论并做出决定。

And you can't just look at one parameter and see the outcome and make decision out of it.

它只衡量了整体图景中的一部分。

It measures only one part of the picture.

因此，临床诊断应依赖专业评估，而不是单一分数，应该有更全面的结果，而不是接连进行多个测试。

So clinical diagnosis should rely on professional evaluation, not a single score and a more comprehensive result should be there instead of just doing one test after another.

好的。

Okay.

此外，我认为对于研究人员来说，因为这些研究会查阅大量已发表的论文，许多研究也是由其他研究人员开展的。

And also, I think for researchers because these studies look at a lot of the papers that's been published, a lot of studies also done by other researchers.

对于研究人员而言，他们需要警惕不要过度依赖这些测量工具。

And I think for researchers, they need to beware that do not get too reliable on these measurement tools.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们还需要找到方法来标准化这些工具。

And they also need to come up ways to standardize these tools.

是的。

Yeah.

对于政策制定者。

For for policy makers.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你可以想象这里会出什么问题。

Because you can you can just imagine the problems here.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你的孩子觉得哪里不对劲，或者父母觉得想带孩子做个检查。

So if you, if you have, you know, your child may think, oh, something's wrong, or the parents might think, you know, I wanna have my child checked.

他们看起来并不特别开心。

They don't seem particular happy.

有些地方感觉不对劲。

Something something seems off.

于是他们去接受来自西方上世纪六七十年代的这些测量工具的评估，恰好做了个显示“没问题”的测试。

And they go and they're measured by these measurement tools from the West from the nineteen sixties and seventies, and they happen to take the the test that says, you're fine.

那之后会发生什么呢？

Well, then what happens after that?

然后孩子回到家，父母说：‘好吧，你没事，我想。’孩子就开始想：‘但我感觉并不好啊，可也许……他们的感受怎么办？’

Then the kid comes home and the parent says, well you're fine I guess, and the kid starts to think, oh, well I don't feel fine but I guess, you know, what happens to their feelings?

他们的感受突然变得毫无根据，这只会像雪球一样越滚越大，进而给孩子本人、家庭，甚至在学校里带来更多问题，我想。

Their feelings are suddenly unjustified Then that's just going to snowball, and it's going to create more problems with the child and then with the family at home and within school, I would think.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

在这项研究的结尾，他们呼吁政策制定者开发一种适合中国人、具有文化根基且经过科学验证的评估工具，针对中国人群体。

In the end of this study, they called for policymakers to develop an appropriate, culturally grounded and scientifically validated assessment tool for Chinese people and So Chinese

那你要怎么做呢？

how do you do that then?

你如何为中国的儿童创建一种专门的评估工具？

How do you create something that's specifically for Chinese kids?

我认为，首先，正如玉山提到的，某些症状在不同社会和文化中可能会有所不同。

Well, I think first of all, as Yushan mentioned, when it comes to some symptoms, for example, it can vary among societies and cultures.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但在中国社会，最常见的症状是什么？

But what about what's the most prevalent symptoms symptoms in the Chinese society?

嗯。

Mhmm.

例如，在南非和东南亚国家，过度担忧是抑郁症的一种表现。

For example, people in South Africa, they they they Southeast Asian countries, are worrying too much is one of the symptoms showing depression.

但在中国人这边呢？

But what about Chinese on the Chinese side?

另一点是，我认为这取决于你收集的数据。

And another thing is that I think it sort of relies on the data that you collected.

这甚至提出了一个更大的问题。

Like, even it puts a bigger question.

如果我们多年来用来诊断和衡量人群心理健康状况的工具是错误的，那这说明了当前关于这个问题的数据是什么情况？

If the tools we've been using to diagnose, to measure the mental health states among the population for years is wrong, what does that say about the current data that you have when it comes to this problem?

你有点得从头再来一次了。

You kind of have to start over again a little bit.

我认为，如果你想为中国的儿童创建一些专门的东西，那么它至少必须扎根于中国文化，甚至基于中文本身。

I think if you wanna create something that's specifically for Chinese kids, well, then it has to be at least grounded in Chinese culture somehow or even within even within Chinese language.

有时候，东西从英语翻译成中文，或者反过来，效果并不好。

Things don't translate from English to Chinese very well sometimes and back back and forth.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们还发现了一个量表中的翻译错误。

Because they also found a translation error in one of the scales.

在一种广泛使用的量表的早期中文翻译中，'我无法振作起来' 这句话被错误地翻译成了 '我走得很慢'。

It says in an early Chinese translation of a very widely used scale, the phrase I could not get going was incorrectly translated, I walk slowly in Chinese.

哦。

Oh.

这完全说不通。

That doesn't make sense at all.

抱歉。

Well, pardon me.

这也不意味着有什么问题。

It also doesn't signify that there's something wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

而且之前，我想我们在这档节目中提到过，中国一直在积极利用人工智能治疗精神疾病。

And previously, I think we mentioned on the show of how China has been actively using AI in treating mental illness.

我们并没有特别提到孩子们对此的反应，但这表明了中国社会正在努力适应这一新现象——是的，心理健康很重要。

We didn't really particularly mention about how kids react to that, but that shows a sign of how this society here in China is trying to adapt to this new phenomena that, yes, mental health matters.

而且，我们需要自己的本地机制来应对这个问题。

And, yes, we need our own local mechanism in combating that.

是的。

Yeah.

而这里的积极一面是很明显的，我认为，因为你们确实有一个系统，虽然它并不是最完美的系统，但至少它让我们看到了问题所在，我们正在努力寻找解决方法，是的。

And that's I mean, silver lining here is quite obvious, I think, because, yep, you've got a system in place that isn't the best system to be used, but how but we are looking at the problems it does give us, and we're trying to figure out how to fix it Yes.

而不是完全忽视中国儿童的心理健康问题。

Rather than just ignoring mental health for Chinese kids altogether.

所以，这也在不断升级，成为在中国更为重大的问题。

So moving up, and that's also snowballing into something that's more major here in China too.

我认为对于父母来说，我一直在观看一些播客视频，内容是中国父母和医院医生之间的讨论，他们提到接诊了大量儿童，以及孩子们的症状、父母的反应等等。

And I believe for parents, it lies I've been watching like podcast videos on discussions among Chinese parents and also doctors in the hospitals saying how they've been receiving many kids and what are the symptoms, what are what are the reactions from the parents, etcetera.

根据我所看到的这些讨论，我逐渐意识到，父母是筛查任何抑郁症状的第一道防线。

And according to those talks that I I just tend to realize that parents are the first screening barrier for any of the depression symptoms.

任何与健康相关的问题，是的。

Any health any health related Yeah.

没错。

True.

而在我们今天讨论的这个话题中，父母——妈妈和爸爸们，或许正是你们肩负着用这些工具来真正衡量孩子状况的责任。

And and in this very topic topic that we're bringing on to the table today, think, yes, parents, moms and dads, it's perhaps ups up to you then these scales on really measuring what's going on with the kids.

我最喜欢的一句话是：发现问题，解决问题，这似乎正是这里正在发生的事情。

One of my favorite expressions is see the problem, fix the problem, and that seems like what is happening here.

你正在收听《圆桌讨论》。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是史蒂夫，今天和Fei Fei以及Yushan一起。

I'm Steve today with Fei Fei and Yushan.

接下来，你的袜子很脏。

Coming up next, your socks are gross.

我来告诉你为什么。

I'll tell you why.

在寻找激情吗？

Looking for passion?

那火热的辩论呢？

How about fiery debate?

想从不同视角了解中国时事吗？

Wanna hear about current events in China from different perspectives?

那么请收听《Roundtable》，在这里东西方交汇，理解是目标。

Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal.

这里是《Roundtable》。

This is Roundtable.

我是Steve，和Yushan、Fei Fei在一起。

I'm Steve with Yushan and Fei Fei.

好的。

Alright.

这是你的情景。

Here's your scenario.

你迟到了，你的洗衣篮里俨然成了一个繁荣的生态系统，但你发现了一双袜子。

You're running late, and your laundry basket is a thriving ecosystem, but you spot a pair of socks.

还算干净。

Clean ish.

你昨天才穿过它们，但没关系，因为你只是去街角商店跑一趟，然后马上回来。

You wore them just yesterday, but hey, it's okay because you're just gonna run to the corner store and straight back.

你的大脑开始进行内在的辩论。

Your brain goes into the internal debate.

我可以这么做。

I can do this.

对吧？

Right?

你知道这并不是正确的做法，但我们都知道，有时候我们确实会这么做。

Well, you know that is not the right answer, but we all know that it's something that we do sometimes.

但从科学角度来看，重复穿袜子是个坏主意吗？

Scientifically though, is rewearing socks a bad idea?

是的。

Yeah.

我想我们都明白这是不对的。

I think we know that it is.

但今天我想和你们分享的是，稍后我们会谈到这一点。

But here's what I wanna share with you today, and we'll get to it in a little bit.

当你终于洗袜子时，你真的用能彻底清除所有细菌的方式在洗吗？

When you do finally wash your socks, are you actually washing them in a way that gets all that bacteria out of there?

我们先从这个开始。

Now let's start with this one.

我之所以这样讲这个故事，是因为我选择了‘是的’。

I'm leading this story by the way because I chose Yeah.

当我提出这个话题时，小组会议上的情况是这样的。

Here's how it went at the group meeting when I suggested this topic.

话题。

Topic.

我说：嘿，咱们聊聊袜子吧，看看你们是不是洗对了，结果大家说：什么？

I said, hey, let's talk socks and if you're washing them correctly and the group went, what?

我简直翻了个白眼。

I gave I I literally gave a roll of my eyes.

我根本没想到

I was not expecting

听好了，听众。

Listen, listener.

每当你在圆桌讨论中听到一个奇怪的故事，你都可以相信是我提出来的。

Whenever you hear a weird story pop up on roundtable, you can trust that it was me who suggested it.

太棒了。

Awesome.

现在，大家都以为没人会连续两天穿同一双袜子。

Now, everybody thinks nobody wears the same socks twice in a row.

对吧？

Right?

让我先跟你们分享一下。

Let me share this with you first.

有一项调查，涉及六个欧洲国家的3000名男女，这是一项由一家非常权威的市场研究机构进行的具有代表性的调查，结果显示，有很大比例的人实际上会连续两天重复穿同一双袜子？

There was a survey, a total of 3,000 men and women in six European countries, and it was a representative survey conducted by a market research institute, very reputable institute, that showed that a large percentage of people actually rewear their socks for a second day in a row?

这并不奇怪。

It's not it's not a surprise.

这并不奇怪。

It's not surprising.

我看到很多人这么做，因为你知道，袜子闻起来没什么味道。

I saw a lot of people do that because, you know, it smells nothing.

看起来完全没问题。

Looks perfectly fine.

测试。

Test.

我喜欢称之为嗅觉测试。

I like to call that the sniff test.

是的。

Yeah.

我有个朋友，她的标准是

I have a friend who, her standards I

喜欢一个朋友。

love a friend.

谁决定什么时候该洗了？嗯。

Who designed whether it's time Yeah.

对。

Right.

当然。

Sure.

一个朋友。

A friend.

她洗衣服的标准是闻一闻。

Her standards of doing laundry is to sniff them.

如果闻起来有味道，那就说明该洗了。

And if it smells, it means it needs a laundry.

如果没有味道，那就还能再穿一两次。

If not, it means a second or a third wear.

穿三次。

A third wear.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候。

Sometimes.

哇。

Wow.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我问了办公室里的人。

So I was asking around the office.

我做了一个小调查。

I did my own little survey.

你会连续两天穿同一双袜子吗？

Do you wear your socks second day in a row?

大家都说不会。

Everybody said, no.

呃。

Ew.

不。

No.

我问的每个人都给出了完全相同的回答，但这项调查结果和Fei Fei的朋友的言论表明，实际情况恰恰相反。

And every person I asked said exactly the same thing, but that survey result and Fei Fei's quote friend suggests that the answers, are otherwise.

但好吧，我最想分享的是这个。

But okay, here's what I wanted to share the most.

所以人们认为，当你用抗菌洗涤剂洗袜子时，嗯。

So people think when you wash your socks with an antibacterial detergent Mhmm.

你实际上杀死了袜子里的所有细菌。

That you are actually killing all of the bacteria in the socks.

因此，没问题。

Therefore, no problem.

这也是你的想法吗？

Is this also your belief?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

这就是为什么我有时还会在洗衣液上面再加一些抗菌液体。

That's why we put the sometimes I even include more sort of the the antibacterial thing liquid inside a top of the detergent.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

我洗袜子前会先泡一泡。

I kind of soak my socks before I throw them into the washing machine.

哦。

Oh.

我们来谈谈

Let's come And

再加一层，以确保真菌和细菌被杀死。

so one more layer to ensure that the fungi and the bacterias are killed.

我们回到那个话题。

Let's come back to that.

好的。

Okay.

有个问题。

Question.

你是用冷水还是热水洗衣服、袜子或其他东西？

Do you wash your clothes or your socks or whatever in cold water or hot water?

冷水。

Cold water.

绝对是的。

Absolutely.

这就是我今天故事的关键。

Here is the hook of my story today.

冷水不够用。

Cold water doesn't cut it.

科学研究表明，约30摄氏度的冷水洗涤旨在清洁衣物，而非消除微生物。

Scientific studies show that cold water washing around 30 degrees Celsius is designed to clean clothes, not eliminate microorganisms.

研究表明，在清洗被污染的袜子后，我认为那就是你刚穿过的袜子。

Research has demonstrated that after washing contaminated socks, I think that's just socks that you just wore.

被污染的。

Contaminated.

喜欢这个词。

Love the word.

污染的。

Polluted.

用冷水加洗涤剂清洗后，仍有超过50%的足癣真菌残留。

In cold water with detergent over 50% of the athlete's foot fungus remain.

你知道足癣真菌是什么吗？

You know what athlete's foot fungus is?

嗯。

Yeah.

真菌会污染水源，如果你用冷水洗衣服，这些孢子可能会转移到其他衣物上。

Fungus then contaminates the water and can transfer spores to other clothes that you've put in your washing machine if you put the laundry or put the water at a cold temperature.

那么我们应该用什么温度来洗袜子，才能确保不会被污染呢？

So at what temperature then should we be washing our socks to make sure it's not contaminated?

60摄氏度是杀死这些耐久真菌孢子的公认阈值。

60 degrees Celsius is the proven threshold for killing the resilient fungal spores.

但那样会让很多衣服缩水。

But that would shrink a lot of clothes.

那不是我的问题。

That is not my problem.

这就是原因。

That's why.

我今天来就是要消灭你的脚气真菌，菲菲。

I'm here to kill your foot fungus today, Feifei.

这就是为什么你需要把袜子单独洗。

That's why you need to wash your socks separately.

嗯。

Yeah.

泡一泡。

Soak them.

嗯。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

嗯。

Yeah.

冷水根本没用。

So cold water does nothing.

基本上，如果你用冷水洗袜子，那就相当于一个病菌转移计划。

Basically, they call that if you wash your socks in cold water, that's basically a germ relocation program.

一个细菌转移计划。

A germ relocation program.

它并不能杀死细菌。

It doesn't kill bacteria.

所以你接下来可能会问，那温水呢？

So you're gonna ask next, okay, well, about warm water?

嗯。

Yep.

温水，比如40到60摄氏度。

Warm water, like 40 to 60 degrees.

它对杀菌效果不稳定。

It provides inconsistent germ killing.

它能减少细菌，但不是可靠的消毒方式，因此他们坚持必须用热水，这是不可妥协的。

It's gonna reduce germs, but it's not a reliable sanitizer, and so that's why the hot water it's it's non negotiable, they say it has to be hot water.

还有快速说一下，你接下来可能会问，如果用抗菌洗衣液呢？这正是我之前问你的原因。

And just quickly, your next question is what if, and that's why I asked you before, antibacterial detergent.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我用冷水洗，它也是有效的。

If I put that in cold water, it's working.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

抗菌洗涤剂中的消毒化学成分，大多数在低温下活性和效果会显著降低。

Well, the disinfecting chemicals in antibacterial detergents or most of them are significantly less active and effective at lower temperatures.

它们被设计为在热水或温水中效果最佳。

They are formulated to work best in hot or warm water.

冷水洗涤通常更快，这会减少化学物质与细菌的接触时间。

Cold washes are often quicker and it reduces the contact time between the chemical and any bacteria.

所以一些抗菌剂在冷水中会部分失活或变得不溶，从而效果更差。

So some antibacterial agents can be partially deactivated deactivated or rendered insoluble in cold water, making them even less effective.

他们应该在标签上注明这一点。

They should include that on the label.

是的。

Yeah.

没用。

Doesn't work.

是的。

Yeah.

有时在较暖的温度下效果更好。

Sometimes work better in warmer temperature.

是的。

Yeah.

用热水洗。

Wash in hot water.

那你觉得呢？

So what do you think?

你对这个感到惊讶吗？

Are are you surprised by this?

我觉得这非常有趣

I found this to be very interesting

信息。

information.

是的。

Yes.

正如我提到的，我只浸泡它们，但这也是在冷水中进行的，而且

I like I mentioned, I only soak them, but that's also done in cold water and

不过还是跟我们说说你的方法吧。

Tell us tell us your method though.

这听起来很有效，因为这是在把它们放进洗衣机之前多走的一步。

That sounds effective because it's an extra step before you put them in the washing machine.

所以我做的就是把袜子收集在一个专门放袜子的篮子里。

So what I do is I gather my socks in a unique basket that just that's just for socks.

然后等袜子堆到一定数量，不会浪费水，而且适合一次洗衣时，就把它们泡在一个含有杀菌去真菌洗涤剂的盆里，让它们浸泡。

And then after they pile up to an amount that's, you know, doesn't waste water and it's a certain amount that's doable for a laundry, then you soak them into a basin that has the detergent of killing fungi and bacteria and let it stay.

就让它在那儿泡半小时到一小时，然后全部扔进洗衣机，用我平时的冷水洗涤程序清洗。

Just sit in there for like half an hour to an hour, and then throw all that into the washing machine to have the normal what I did is the the cold water washing process.

这就像是在正式洗衣之前加了一道杀菌的步骤。

So it's like adding a screen of killing before the actual laundry.

这非常负责任。

That's very responsible.

不过我觉得大多数人不会这么做，Faye。

I think most people don't do that though, Faye Faye.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是把袜子和我户外穿的衣服一起洗。

I just wash them with my pants, you know, clothes that I wear outdoors.

嗯。

Yeah.

我对于运动袜也差不多这么处理。

I kinda do that with my gym socks.

嗯。

Yeah.

我也是。

Me too.

好的。

Okay.

而且我觉得，健身房的袜子上面还多了一层细菌。

And gyms, I think, are are another layer of bacterias on top there.

当菲菲说我的朋友重复穿袜子时，我在想她是不是在说我。

So when Fei Fei said my friend rewears their socks, I was wondering if she was talking about me.

我确实有这种行为，但这需要稍微解释一下。

I'm guilty of this, but it requires a little explanation.

所以当我去健身房时，我的健身包里会放好几双袜子，有时候这些袜子完全是一样的。

So when I go to the gym, I have multiple socks, pairs of socks in my gym bag, and sometimes they're exactly the same socks.

所以我分不清。

So I can't tell.

有时候我回家后忘了把袜子拿出来，下次去健身房时穿上袜子，就会想：哪双是上次穿过的？

Sometimes I forget to take them out when I come home, so I'll go back to the gym and go to put on my socks, and I'm like, which ones were the one I wore last time?

然后就是闻一闻测试。

And then the sniff test.

听起来

It sounds

希望这些是正确的。

hope these are I hope these are right.

所以我觉得我有时候也确实这样。

So I think I'm guilty of it sometimes as well.

但就是这样了。

But there you go.