重新定义朝九晚五

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

您正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是牛红林，今天和史蒂夫与玉山一起讨论。

I'm Niu Honglin, joined by Steve and Yushan.

马上开始。

Coming up soon.

对于当今进入职场的许多年轻人来说，传统的朝九晚五工作已不再是唯一甚至不是首选的选择。

For many young people entering the workforce today, the traditional nine zero five job is no longer the only or even the preferred option.

灵活的工作时间、多元的收入来源和数字创业正日益成为他们职业版图的一部分。

Flexible schedules, multiple income streams and digital entrepreneurship are increasingly part of their career landscape.

在中国，这种转变推动了新型就业形式的迅速崛起，从配送服务到直播电商，更不用说与人工智能相关的新职业了。

In China, this shift has fueled the rapid rise of new forms of employment, from delivery services to live stream commerce, not to AI related new jobs.

随着立法者和政治顾问齐聚两会，国家正在密切关注这一代新型劳动者如何重塑中国的劳动力市场。

As lawmakers and political advisers gather at the Two Sessions, the country is taking a closer look at how this new generation of workers is reshaping the country's labor market.

想象一支规模超过大多数国家人口的劳动力队伍。

Imagine a workforce larger than the population of most countries.

在中国，如今已有超过两亿人从事灵活就业形式，从穿梭于拥挤城市街道的外卖骑手，到面向在线观众直播带货的主播。

Here in China, more than 200,000,000 people now work in flexible forms of employment, from delivery riders navigating crowded city streets to live streamers selling products on to online audience.

这一增长的很大一部分得益于数字平台，它们实时连接着劳动者与消费者。

Much of this growth has been powered by digital platforms, which connect workers and consumers in real time.

就在几天前两会在北京召开之际，这支庞大且不断演变的劳动力队伍已成为关于就业、权益保障和国家数字经济未来政策讨论的核心。

As the two sessions unfold in Beijing several days ago, this massive and evolving workforce has moved to the center of policy discussions about employment, rights production, and the future of the country's digital economy.

因为我们必须承认，如果你拿个小黄本写下这些工作的利弊，你可能会发现自己也想从事其中一些工作。

Because we have to admit that some of these jobs would be you if you have a little yellow pad writing down the pros and cons of these jobs.

这两栏里的内容都很多。

There are many on both columns.

你需要一个很大的黄色笔记本。

You would be you would need a big yellow pad.

很大的

A big

不是小黄本。

Not a little yellow pad.

没错。

Exactly.

但具体是哪些工作呢？

But what jobs are we talking about exactly?

太多了。

Well, so many.

它涵盖了各个行业，包括餐饮、快递、物流、医疗保健，还有教育、零售以及其他所有领域。

It covers all various industries, the catering industry, express delivery, logistics, health care, and also in education, retail, and just all other sectors.

这是根据一位全国政协委员本周早些时候、也就是上周的表述。

So this is according to one of the CPPCC member just earlier this week or rather last week.

因为到2024年，中国灵活就业人员数量已超过2.4亿，其中8400万人从事这些新型就业形式。

Because by the 2024, the number of flexible workers in China had exceeded 240,000,000, among which 84,000,000 were engaged in this these new forms of employment.

这确实涵盖了大量人群，因此显得尤为重要。

That really covers a lot of people and it makes it really important.

这些工作对于中国的经济和社会具有极其重要的意义。

They are highly significant that that's for China's economy and society.

而且，正如你所说，洪林，今年的两会也多次强调和提及这一点。

And also, it's highly it's highlighted and mentioned multiple times in this year's two sessions as well as as you said, Honglin.

这些工作对整个经济也极为重要，因为如果你仔细想想，它们就像一张蜘蛛网。

These are really, really important jobs too for the economy as a whole because they connect if you think about it, it's kind of like a spider web.

这些类型的工作将生产、分配、流通和消费连接在一起。

These types of jobs connect production to distribution to circulation to consumption.

一个简单的例子，也许是最容易理解的例子，就是快递员，他们实现了货物从工厂到像你我这样的终端用户的流动。

An example an easy example, maybe the easiest example would be delivery workers, right, realizing the flow of goods from the factory to the end users like like you or I.

通过创造大量就业岗位，你帮助了大学生、大学毕业生、农民工和再就业人员等群体，他们共同发挥着不可替代的作用，使我们从早到晚都能持续运转。

And then by creating these huge amounts of job positions, you're helping out groups like college students or college graduates or migrant workers or reemployed workers, and they're all playing this kind of irreplaceable role together that helps keep us moving on a daily basis from morning to night.

是的。

Yes.

在谈到新型就业形式时，这些不同职业有一个非常有趣的共同特征，或者说是大多数职业的共同点。

And when it comes to new forms of employment, there is a very interesting trait that all these different occupations share or most of these occupations share.

那就是它们大多是基于平台的在线工作，跨越了传统全职与自雇的界限，就像史蒂夫已经提到的快递员、网约车司机和直播主播。

That is it is kind of a platform based online jobs that cross traditional full time and self employment boundaries, like what Steve has already mentioned, delivery riders, ride hailing drivers, and livestreamers.

是的。

Yes.

他们今天可以接一项任务，如果决定换工作，也能非常轻松地切换，这就是为什么很多人喜欢这类工作，因为它的灵活性。

They can do a task today, and they if they decide to change a job, they can do it very easily, which is why many people would like to have that job because of the flexibility.

如果我今天想照顾孩子，就不必当快递员工作，因为我赚的是按单计酬的薪水，这里我指的是这类快递员。

If I want to take care of my kids today, I do not have to work today as a delivery driver, for example, because I learn earn my salary on order by order basis depending on the kind of delivery driver I am being I'm referring to here.

此外，除了这种灵活的新型就业形式，如今就业市场中还有人工智能，这意味着一方面它创造了新的工作岗位，比如人工智能训练师。

And, also, besides the flexible new form of jobs or or new form of employment, there's also AI in the job market these days, which means on one hand, they're creating new jobs like AI trainers.

我们之前已经讨论过这个话题。

We've talked about around table.

数据标注员会给数据打上不同标签，提升数据的质量，这样在将数据投入人工智能训练过程时，AI能学得更好。

Data annotators, they give data different labels, making the data a bit more high quality traits so that when they're putting into a AI training process, the AI can learn a little bit better.

还有提示工程师。

And there's also prompt engineers.

我想我们在圆桌讨论中也提到过这个。

I think we've talked about this on Roundtable as well.

是的。

Yeah.

如何更好地与人工智能交流。

How to talk to the AI better.

没错。

Exactly.

你可以帮助与你一起工作的人使用更好的提示，让他们工作得更好。

And you can help those who are working with you with better prompts so they can work better.

此外，例如在某些情况下，还有人机协作管理者，我想在北京的一些工业园区里，当他们引入无人驾驶汽车时。

And there's also, for example, human machine collaboration managers for certain I think in some of the industrial park here in Beijing, when they introduce automobile that are driverless mode automobile.

他们希望确保能够调整汽车的状况或驾驶方式，使汽车更好地适应工业园区内的实际环境。

They wanna make sure they would adjust the situation or the driving way of the car so the car can better fit the real on the ground situation in the industrial park.

所有这些工作，你并不需要一直调整汽车。

And all these jobs, you don't really need to adjust the cars all the time.

你只需要调整一段时间。

You adjust them for a while.

完成这项任务后，你就转到下一个测试，嗯。

And after you finish this task, you move on to the next test Mhmm.

这使得工作更加灵活。

Which makes the job flexible.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得不久之前，我们曾谈到过一人公司的主题。

I remember just not long ago, we touched upon the topic of one person company.

你创办自己的公司，把其他事情交给AI和机器，这样你就有更长的时间去做那些只有人类才能决定的事情。

You start your own company and leave the rest to AI and to the machine so that you have you have like longer window of time to do those that only require human efforts to decide on.

所以，这正是我们如今正在推进的方向。

So that's something that we are moving on to these days.

在互联网时代和数字时代，一切都在迅猛发展，这再合理不过了，因为如今互联网、智能手机的快速发展，以及人们与智能手机内容的紧密互动，加上大数据和算法，共同构建了稳定的在线平台，能够实时连接工人、服务和消费者。

And with the Internet era, with the digital era, just booming up the development of everything, that only makes sense because right now, the rapid development of the Internet, the smartphone, how people are so closely engaged with contents from our smartphones, the big data and algorithms, those have all built stable online platforms that can really connect workers with services and consumers in real time.

这里有一个非常有趣的事例。

Here's one very funny example.

我男朋友最近在沈阳开始工作，却在北京领养了一只猫。

So, my boyfriend recently started his work in Shenyang and he adopted a cat in Beijing.

而且

And

我现在明白你为什么会爱上

Now I know why you fall in

了。

love.

事情是这样的。

Here's the thing.

他想在沈阳养猫，但猫却在北京。

He wants to raise the cat in Shenyang, the cat is in Beijing.

那么，我们如何让这个转移发生呢？

So how do we make that move happen?

我告诉他，我就是这么跟他说的。

I told him here's exactly what I told him.

如果你考虑物流方面，想运东西，市场上已经有一些现成的方案了。

If you regarding logistics, if you want to weigh out, there is something that's already out there in the market.

那我是在哪里找的呢？

And where did I search?

小红书上，有很多人在做拼车服务。

Red note, there are a lot of people just doing car lending.

他们经常开SUV往返于不同省份和主要城市之间。

They do, like, SUV drives between different provinces and different major cities.

专门专注于运送体型较大、无法乘坐高铁或飞机的宠物。

Just focusing dedicated on transporting pets of larger size that couldn't get on the high high speed train or couldn't get on the the the airplane.

我们领养的是缅因猫，是个大块头。

And Maine Coon is the type of cat we're adopting, and it's a big boy.

是的。

So, yep.

我我

I'm I'm

我真的觉得你们的关系正在变成一集《圆桌会议》。

really I feel like your relationship is turning into an episode of Roundtable.

你们在分享物流信息。

You're sharing logistical information.

你们在深入挖掘故事。

You're searching deep into stories.

但这是个不错的

But that is a good

故事。

story.

它

It's

对，没错。

a good Exactly.

谢谢你，洪林。

Thank you, Honglin.

我想表达的是，就物流而言，比如有一些人正在做生意，真正及时地满足需求。

Where I'm heading is that for logistics, for example, there are people doing businesses and really providing in time need.

你只需要提前一到两天预订，他们就能这么快地为你办妥事情。

You only need to book like one to two days ahead, that's how fast they can get things done for you.

是的。

Yeah.

我的感受是，如今中国的经济，其运作的许多方面正在迅速变化，因为你有平台经济、共享经济、在线零售加外卖、蓬勃发展的直播电商，而所有这些都需要不同类型、具有不同需求的劳动者。

I mean, I the impression that I get about China now is that the economy is how the economy functions, many aspects of it, is changing quite rapidly because you've got the platform economy, you've got the sharing economy, you've got online retail plus food delivery, you've got live streaming ecommerce, which is booming now, and all of these things require different types of workers that have different types of needs.

并不是每个人都想要或能够胜任朝九晚五的办公室工作，因为每个人的生活状况不同。

Not everyone wants or or can handle a nine to five office job because of different life circumstances.

正是如此。

Precisely.

因此，毫无疑问存在这样一个市场，这一点从我们听到的这些工作岗位所需工人数量的数据中就可以看出。

So there's absolutely a market, and that's evidenced by the numbers that we heard, for the number of workers needed for these types of jobs.

是的。

Yes.

一方面，我们看到经济蓬勃发展。

So on one hand, we see the economy booming.

我们看到了市场需求，也看到越来越多的人，尤其是年轻人，希望进入这些行业，从事这些工作，享受其中的福利。

We see the market there, and we see more and more people, more and more young people wanting to get into these industries, wanting to get into these jobs to enjoy the perks.

但另一方面，我们并不是说一切都完美无缺。

But on the other hand, we're not saying it's all rosy and perfect.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在快递员和在线主播这些群体身上，情况显然存在一些挑战。

The picture is definitely with some challenges when it comes to delivery drivers, when it comes to online livestreamers.

他们也面临着各种困难。

They also face challenges.

是的

Yeah.

当然

Of course.

而且首先

And first of

我们面临这些新型就业工人法律地位不明确、缺乏劳动合同的问题。

all, that we have got these unclear legal status and lack of labor contracts for these kind of new form of employment workers.

因此，中国现行的劳动法并未明确界定灵活就业人员、平台和雇主的权利与责任。

So China currently the current labor laws do not actually clearly define rights and responsibilities for flexible workers and platforms and employers.

因此，劳动标准仍处于研究不足的状态。

And so labor standards, they're still under researched.

结果，超过一半的灵活就业者没有签订劳动合同，这可能导致诸多潜在问题。

And as a result, over half of flexible workers have no employment contract, and that can lead to a lot of potential issues.

我的意思是，当你没有合同的时候，保护权益是很困难的

I mean, it's difficult to protect rights when you don't have a contract in

地方

place

来保护你的权利。

to protect your rights.

权利。

Rights.

但当你确实有合同的时候，比如你签了一年的合同，你虽然不能说完全失去了灵活性，但情况确实发生了变化。

And But when you do have a contract, for example, you sign a one year contract, you kinda, not to say lose that flexibility, but the situation is definitely changing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

话虽如此，我们并不是说国家不应该思考这个问题。

That being said, we're not saying the country should not be thinking about this this problem or this question.

实际上，很多人都在讨论这个问题。

Actually, a lot of people are discussing this.

我们听到了许多不同的政策顾问以及

We hear many different political advisers as well as

立法者、全国人大代表正在讨论如何改善这一状况，因为我们根本无法忽视如此庞大的劳动力群体。

lawmakers, NPC deputies talking about how to improve the situation because we simply cannot ignore this huge workforce.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Indeed.

谈到决策的政治层面，如今官员们建议更好地统计这类工人的数量及其从事的工作类型。

Speaking of the the political side of how decisions are making, nowadays, officials suggest better tracking just how many such workers there are and what kinds of jobs they do.

因此，官员们希望承认即使没有正式合同的实际雇佣关系。

So the officials, they want to recognize real working relationship even without a formal contract.

这样，工人就能真正获得公平的报酬和充足的休息，避免被逼迫超时工作，同时保障他们的安全。

So workers, they can really get fair pay and a good amount of rest without any possibilities of being squeezed to overwork and also there's safety protection for all of them.

此外，官员们还提议为快递和网约车服务设定最低小时工资，以帮助更多工人加入与工作相关的工会，以便在需要时维护自身权益。

And also, the officials also proposed setting minimum hourly wages for delivery and ride hailing services services to help more workers join work related unions to define defend their rights when when when they need to.

对。

Yes.

如果你看看这些建议中的大部分，会发现它们实际上非常务实。

And if you take a look at all of these or many of these advices, they're actually being very practical about it.

我们并不是从现在几乎没有合同，直接过渡到所有人都必须签合同。

We are not moving from having not a lot of contract now to, okay.

你们必须从早上9点工作到下午5点，像办公室职员一样准时上下班。

All of you sign a contract.

他们提出的是针对不同类型灵活就业者的不同计划，以及不同的社会保障缴费方案。

You have to work from 09:00 to 05:00, and you have to work exactly the time as a office worker, they are suggesting different plans, different Social Security related paying plans for different types of flexible workers.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们建议地方政府为这些劳动者缴纳一定比例的社会保障费用。

They're suggesting local government pay a certain percentage for them if they decided to dedicate it in paying their social security related insurance.

是的。

Yeah.

他们还建议，因为许多这类劳动者面临的一个挑战是，他们希望在不同省份之间流动，而在中国，这可能会成为一个问题——因为你是在某个省份缴纳社保，将来该省才会在你需要时提供补偿。

And they're also suggesting that because many of these workers, their one of their challenges is that they wanna move across different provinces, which in China could be a situation because you're paying your social insurance to the province so that later the province can give you compensation when you need it.

所以如果你搬到一个新省份，就不覆盖了吗？

So if you move to a new province, it's not covered?

如果你办理转移手续，是覆盖的，但目前转移流程还不够顺畅。

It's covered if you do the transfer, but currently, the transfer process is not as smooth.

所以他们建议我们让这个流程更顺畅。

So they're suggesting we can make it smooth.

而且甚至有代表表示，对于全职配送骑手，确实应该给他们正式的劳动合同，并纳入完整的社会保障体系。

And we also even have deputies saying for the full time delivery riders, yes, you should give them formal labor contracts and participation in the full Social Security system.

对于稳定长期的兼职骑手，可以自动将他们纳入基本收入或工时保障，由平台或公司提供部分缴费补贴，也就是说，公司为他们缴纳社保的比例可以略低于全职员工，但仍需缴纳。

And for the stable long term part time riders, maybe you can automatic enroll their them into the basic income or working hours with platforms, companies providing partial contribution subsidies, meaning that the percentage that the company is paying for their social insurance plan is a bit is a bit lower than the full time workers, but they still have to pay.

这样工人自己只需支付较少部分。

So the workers themselves can pay a bit less.

而对于偶尔接单或低收入的零工，政策是鼓励但不强制他们参与。

And when it comes to the occasional or low income gig workers, they are encouraged, but they're not required to participate.

他们可以根据自身情况自行判断是否参与以及如何参与。

They can judge on their own situation to decide whether or not or how to participate.

这使得它既灵活又有保障。

This makes it both flexible, but also insured.

是的。

Sure.

工人自己也需要有所意识。

And workers need to be aware as well.

责任并不全在公司。

It's not all on the companies.

对吧？

Right?

有一项调查结果显示，我认为大约有42%到50%左右的灵活就业者甚至不知道自己拥有哪些保险。

There was a survey result that showed that, I think it was between 42, maybe 42 to somewhere around 50% of employees, these flexible workers weren't even aware of what kind of insurances they had.

所以工人也需要了解情况。

So workers have to be aware of what's going on too.

此外，我们看到越来越多的地方政府和企业鼓励员工学习人工智能技术，并提供补贴，让他们能够报名参加此类课程，以便更好地适应快速变化的工作环境。

And besides that, we see more and more local government as well as companies letting their workers learning AI technology and giving them subsidies one day sign up for such courses so that they can better adjust to the fast moving work related landscape.

我们始终希望看到这样的情况，并将继续在《圆桌论坛》中关注这一点。

And we would love that kind of situation always, and we'll continue observe that here on Roundtable.

这也为我们今天的节目画上了句号。

And that brings us to the end of today's show.

非常感谢您的参与。

Thank you so much for being with us.

我们非常期待听到您对这些话题的看法。

We'd love to hear your thoughts on the topics.

请在您收听播客的平台留下评论，或发送邮件至 roundtablepodcast@qq.com 告诉我们。

Leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcast or send us an email to roundtablepodcast@qq.com.

我是牛红林，和史蒂夫、玉山一起。

I'm Niu Honglin with Steve and Yushan.

谢谢。

Thank you.

再见。

Bye bye.