告别算法价格歧视

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌会谈。

This is Roundtable.

忠诚可能代价高昂，多年来，平台一直利用我们的个人数据来测试我们愿意花多少钱。

Loyalty can be expensive, and for years, platforms have used our personal data to test how much we are willing to spend.

但一场整顿已经开始了。

But a crackdown has begun.

从中国到纽约，新法律正在揭开那个算法黑箱，强制要求明确披露：此价格可能有所不同。

From China to New York, new laws are prying open that algorithmic black box, enforcing a bold disclosure this price may vary.

我们将探讨透明度是否真的能阻止个性化定价的秘密算法。

We'll explore whether transparency can actually stop the secret math of personalized pricing.

我们正在北京现场直播。

We're live from Beijing.

这是圆桌会谈。

This is Roundtable.

我是史蒂夫。

I am Steve.

非常感谢您今天参与我们的节目。

Thanks very much for being with us today.

在本节目中，我与牛红林和玉山一起。

And for the show, I'm with Niu Hong Lin and Yushan.

首先，你有没有过那种强烈的感受：在网上过于忠诚实际上会让你花钱更多？

First up, ever get that nagging feeling that being too loyal online is actually costing you money?

当你购物越多、点击越多、预订越多，价格似乎就越高，这种感觉就是如此。

Well, that's the feeling when the more you shop, the more you click, and the more you book, the higher that price seems to climb.

我们并没有想象，我们以前就曾指出过这个问题：多年来，在线平台的忠实用户往往比新用户支付更多。

We are not imagining it and we've actually flagged this problem before that for years loyal users of an online platform often pay more than first timers.

但现在，这个问题再次成为焦点，因为算法的黑箱终于被打开了。

But now it's back in the spotlight because the algorithmic black box is finally being opened.

从中国出台严厉的新规以遏制数据驱动的价格差异，到纽约通过了一项具有里程碑意义的法律，强制平台做出直白的披露，全球监管机构都在说：不再允许秘密的价格测试。

From China rolling out tough new rules on data driven price differences to New York passing a landmark law that forces platforms to come clean with an in your face disclosure, regulators around the world are saying no more secret price testing.

当你意识到自己可能因为朋友购买同样的产品而支付更多时，这确实让人很恼火，牛红林和玉山。

It is annoying when you become aware of it, Nihong Lin and Yushan, that you could be being charged more for a product that your friend is paying less for.

这一直是人们长期抱怨的最大问题之一。

This is kind of the biggest complaint that's been going on for a while.

是的。

Yeah.

我简直不敢相信，我最近才正式了解到这件事，尽管这个问题在网上已经存在多年，并且一直引发热烈讨论。

And I can't believe I just read about it and know it as a form of being informed officially, very recently, despite the fact that this has been online and it's been a heated discussion for years.

你之前不知道这件事。

You didn't know about this.

我有所察觉。

I sensed it.

有时候，如果我决定不购买某个产品，几天后当我再次回来时，系统可能会给我一个折扣或更大的优惠券，让我能以低于原价的价格购买。

Somehow, if I decide not to pay for a certain product and then a few days later, if I come back to the very same, it might give me a discount or give me a bigger coupon so that I can pay less than premium.

我们稍后再回到这个例子。

Would like to go back to that example a little bit later.

好的。

Sure.

但是，是的，你说得对，史蒂夫。

But, yes, you're right, Steve.

但没错，这是迄今为止最大的投诉，所有问题都归结为一种常被称为大数据歧视的做法——购物和票务平台利用你的个人数据，尤其是根据你的消费习惯，为你建立个人档案。

It's the biggest complaint so far and it all boils down to a practice that's often called the big data discrimination where shopping and ticketing platforms, they use your personal data to build a profile for you, especially based on your spending habits.

他们会查看一切：你的设备类型、浏览行为，甚至你预订产品的速度。

And they look at everything, your device type, your browsing behavior, and even how quickly you book a a product.

基于所有这些细节，他们会为你量身定制一个专属价格。

And also they based on all those details, they decide on your personal price tag that just for you.

这个价格可能比你朋友的高，也可能更低。

And it could be it could be higher or lower than your friends.

基本上，这些平台将你提供的个人数据作为一种工具，来试探他们能向你收取多高的价格。

And, basically, the the platforms they're utilizing these personal data from you as a tool to see just how much they can get away with charging you.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是一个有趣而意外的转折。

This is a kind of an interesting and unexpected twist.

哦，不是

Oh, not

让我解释一下为什么这么说。

Well, here's why I say that.

比如，如果我有一张本地咖啡店的积分卡，他们说买满十杯咖啡，就可以免费送一杯。

Because, you know, if I have a point card to my local coffee shop, for example, and they say when you buy your tenth cup of coffee, you will get one cup of coffee for free.

这是在奖励你的忠诚。

You are being rewarded for your loyalty.

但在这里，你却仿佛因为消费习惯而受到了惩罚。

Here, it's almost like you are being punished for your spending habits.

是的。

Yes.

而且这种情况比你想象的更常见。

And it's more common than you think.

根据中国消费者协会的数据，这一现象被列入2024年十大消费者权益热点之一；四川省消费者协会发布的一项调查显示，近40%有网络购物经验的消费者表示，至少根据他们的理解，曾遭遇过大数据驱动的价格歧视。

According to the China Consumers Association, the phenomenon was listed among the top 10 consumer rights hotspots in the 2024, and a survey released by the Sichuan Provincial Consumers Association found that nearly 40% of consumers with online shopping experience had encountered big data driven kind of price discrimination, at least according to their understanding of the situation.

同样，2024年11月北京、天津和湖北三地消费者协会联合开展的一项调查表明，超过40%的受访者明确报告曾经历过类似玉仙提到的这种大数据营销行为。

And similarly, a joint investigation conducted in November 2024 by Consumer Associations of Beijing, Tianjin, and Hubei showed that over, again, 40% respondents very specifically reported experiencing different big data marketing, like the one that Yuxian mentioned.

他们觉得，比如过几天再回来一看，价格居然变了；或者用朋友或家人的手机查看完全相同的产品，价格却不同。

They believe the feeling of, oh, I came back several days later only to find that, oh, the price is different, or I checked the exact same product with the phone of a friend of mine or a family member of mine, different pricing.

或者，我曾经是或现在仍是某个平台的会员。

Or I used to have or currently I have the membership of a certain platform.

对。

Right.

结果发现，成为会员后，商品价格可能确实低一点，但运费却比其他人高。

And it turns out that with the membership, yes, the price of the item might be a bit lower, but the shipping fee is higher than others.

所以，有各种不同的现象，各种不同的例子。

So a lot of different phenomena, a lot of different examples.

很狡猾。

Tricky.

很棘手。

Tricky.

顺便问一下，我们这里说的是什么类型的产品？

By the way, what type of products are we talking about here?

几乎是所有东西。

It's it's almost everything.

差不多。

Almost.

产品和服务。

Products and services.

例如，投诉最多的包括酒店会员，比如一些黄金酒店会员。

For example, the most complained ones include the hotel memberships, for example, some golden hotel members.

哦，那真是

Oh, that's

最糟糕的。

the worst.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

他们说他们被报价的价格比普通用户更高。

They say they are quoted higher rates than regular users.

还有打车应用。

And then there are the ride hailing apps.

你在线预订一辆车。

You book a car online.

你是这家公司的钻石会员，但有时你支付的费用甚至比新用户还高。

You are the diamond members of this company, but sometimes you pay even more than brand new users.

还有一个根本没测试过的例子。

And then one that isn't even tested at yeah.

他们对电影票做了一次测试。

Did a test with movie tickets.

他或她用了三个不同的账户。

He or she used three different accounts.

一个是全新的新用户账户，然后是普通账户，再就是顶级会员。

One is like a brand new newbie account, and then there's a regular account, and then the top tier membership.

所以最便宜的票总是给新用户，而顶级会员有时反而要多付五块钱以上，每张票都比普通用户贵。

So the cheapest ticket goes always to the brand new account with the top tier membership pay more sometimes more than five, you want extra per ticket than the regular one.

所以这已经足够明显了。

So that's, like, obvious enough.

它涵盖了我们每天使用和支付的所有服务。

It's covering everything that we use, we we pay for on a daily basis.

我遇到过的最狡猾的情况是，我在一个社交媒体平台上关注了某个特定品牌。

The most sneaky case I have ever encountered was that I followed a specific brand on a social media platform.

是的。

Mhmm.

当我从另一个平台——也就是电商平台——购买该品牌的产品时，我发现我看到的价格比我的丈夫看到的要高。

And when I started purchasing the product from that brand from another platform, which is an ecommerce platform, shopping platform, I realized that the price I got was higher than the one that my husband got.

因为他没有注册。

Because he he did not sign up.

是的

Yeah.

他没注册

He didn't

注册。

sign up.

这两个平台本应是独立的，不应该互通。

And the two platforms are supposed to be worse, supposed to be separate from each other.

这就是关键所在。

That was the catch.

人们觉得这种做法很狡猾。

So people feel like this is sneaky.

人们觉得这种做法不公平。

People feel like this is unfair.

这个问题本身并不新鲜，但中国的新规是新的。

The issue itself is not new, but the regulations in China are new.

如果我们能的话，我们来逐一讨论这些。

Let's go over those if we could.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是我们谈到今年1月7日公布的新规的时候。

That's when we talk about the new rules announced on January 7, so just earlier this year.

这项规定名为《网络交易平台规则监督管理办法》，旨在加强对在线平台制定和执行运营政策方式的监管。

And it's called the measures for the supervision and administration of online trading platform rules, and it aims to tighten oversight of just how online platforms draft and enforce their operating policies.

很快就要生效了。

Coming into effect very soon.

对吧？

Right?

很快就在今年二月生效。

Very soon on February year.

它们由多个行政部门联合发布，包括市场监管总局、国家互联网信息办公室等。

And they're jointly released by several administrative bodies, including the market regulation, state administration for that, and also the Cyberspace Administration of China.

因此，这些规定旨在规范平台如何制定、修订和应用影响价格与费用、尤其是其算法的内部规则。

So they're all here to govern how platforms set, revise, and apply internal rule books affecting prices and fees and especially their algorithms.

那么新规则手册包含哪些内容？

So what's in the new rule book?

首先，禁止隐形涨价。

That's including, first of all, no more invisible price hikes.

因此，如果消费者不知情，平台对同一商品设定不同价格或费用的行为现在属于违法。

So it is now illegal for these platforms to set different prices or fees for the same item if consumer doesn't know it's happening.

这意味着，你必须明确告知平台用户价格变动的具体情况，甚至需要做出相应提示。

And by that, it means that you need to let the user of your platform know exactly what's going on with the price and even make indicators on that.

如果价格上涨，必须告知客户。

If the price is going up, it needs to be indicated to the customer.

如果价格有变动，是的。

If it's being changed, yes.

这非常重要，因为从学术角度来看，经济学中的价格歧视行为，在线上消费中表现为过渡条件歧视或差异化定价，这正是我们一直在描述的情况。

It is very important because, from academic perspective, the practice of, let's say, price discrimination in economics, manifesting in online consumption as transition condition discrimination or differentiated pricing, which is what we've been describing.

但从理论上讲，差别定价本身并不道德或非法。

But in theory, differentiated pricing itself is no it's not immoral or illegal.

这样做是可以的。

It is okay to do that.

但在新的制度经济学框架下，买卖双方就信息产权进行的协商目前仍是可接受的。

But when we are talking about in these new institution economics, the negotiation over information property rights between buyers and sellers are are acceptable yet.

如果消费者对此毫不知情，那就不可接受。

If the consumers do not know about this, it's not okay.

所以，设置不同价格是可以的，但不知道自己被区别对待就不行。

So having different price is fine, but not knowing that you are treated differently is not okay.

这里似乎存在一个反方观点。

It feels like there's a counterargument here.

你现在想讨论这个吗？

Do you wanna discuss that now?

如果我去商店，促销明天才开始。

If I go to a store and the sale will start tomorrow.

对吧？

Right?

如果我去一家服装店，而公司知道促销将在周五开始。

If I go to a clothing store and the sales the sale the company knows the sale will start on Friday.

明白吗？

Okay?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我在周四去那里。

I go there on Thursday.

这家公司没有义务告诉我：嘿。

Now that company is not obligated to say to me, hey.

别今天买东西。

Don't shop today.

我们明天开始有25%的折扣。

We have a 25% sale starting tomorrow.

但如果顾客明天来，他们就能享受到这次促销。

But if the customer comes tomorrow, they're gonna benefit from that sale.

我并没有收到任何关于情况有变的通知。

I'm not being notified that something different is happening.

我们这里是在比较苹果和苹果，还是苹果和橙子？

Are we comparing apples and apples here or apples and oranges?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you see what I'm saying?

是的。

Yes.

但我不认为这是相同的情况，因为公司是否推出折扣，实际上只有在真正推出折扣的那一刻才最终确定。

But I don't think it's the same situation because whether or not the company would roll out the discount is only really finalized at the moment they roll out roll out the discount.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果他们没有进行促销宣传，就无法确切地告诉你促销何时开始。

If they do not do promotional kind of marketing, they cannot really tell you for sure that it's starting.

好的。

Okay.

说完你的想法。

Finish your thought.

这是一方面。

That's one thing.

另一方面，我说同样的商品采用不同定价是可以接受的，是因为在在线购物出现之前，我们就经常遇到这种情况。

And the second thing is the reason I said that a different pricing is okay for the same item is because long before online shopping exists, we encounter this all the time.

当你在市场里买土豆时。

When you're in a market, you shop for potato.

如果你很擅长砍价，就能拿到一元的折扣。

If you're really good at bargaining, you get a 1 yuan discount.

我不认为这有什么可比性。

I don't think that's a comparable thing at all.

这 definitely 是的，因为你买的是完全相同的产品，只是因为你擅长和卖家讨价还价，所以得到了更低的价格。

It definitely is, because you're buying the exact same product, yet you get a lower price because you're good at bargaining with the seller.

这个责任在顾客身上。

That onus is on the customer.

是我需要去谈判。

It's on me to negotiate.

我知道，如果我想尝试谈判，我完全可以。

And I'm aware that if I want to try to negotiate, I can.

你把责任推给了顾客。

That you're putting the responsibility on the customer.

不。

No.

我只是说，同一个产品却有不同价格这种现象本身。

I'm just saying the sheer phenomenon of having different price for different product.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果价格差异不是高到完全不合理，那就可以。

If if the price difference is not too high that it's definitely not reasonable Yeah.

这种现象本身是没问题的。

That phenomenon itself is fine.

我有点同意，因为你知道，如果有人在街上发10%的折扣券，嗯。

I kind of agree because, you know, if someone's handing out a 10% discount coupon on a on the street Mhmm.

对于一杯咖啡，而我恰好从后门进去之类的，我没看到有人发优惠券。

For a coffee, and I happen to go through the back entrance or something, I don't see the person handing out coupons.

当走过前门的顾客享受了10%折扣时，我却没有得到。

I don't get the 10% discount when the customer who went through the front door did.

这就是线下和线上购物场景的不同之处，因为在线平台上，确实如此。

That that's where the offline and online shopping scenes vary because on online platforms sure.

线下服装店在周四、周五的销售差异，可能会让你以为明天有促销，但你并不知道。

The Thursday, Friday differentiation on sales for a clothing store offline may just lead you to believe, oh, there's a sales tomorrow, but I don't know it.

这不公平。

That's unfair.

但如今在线购物，尤其是在中国，我不确定他们是否也在其他国家这么做。

But on online shopping these days, especially in China, I'm not sure if they're doing it outside of China too.

比如，双十一大促就要来了。

But for example, the double 11 is coming.

在双十一大促之前，我买了一件东西。

And then before the double 11 comes, I bought something.

但当购物季到来时，价格却下降了。

But when the shopping season arrives, the price drops.

于是你就有了充分的理由去找那个商品的公司理论，说在这么短的时间内，价格已经大幅下调，比我买的时候低多了，我应该得到某种形式的退款。

Then you have a very good reason reason to argue with the very product company of that product you purchased to say that, oh, within this very short and limited period of time, the price has been dropped to a much lower level than how much I paid, then I should be refunded in some way.

他们也有相应的政策。

And they have policies for that too.

他们会给你补偿。

They'll give you the compensation.

是的。

Yes.

他们会提供价格保护之类的措施。

You've got price preservation or something.

这个论点很合理。

It's a fair argument.

当然了。

That's for sure.

新规则里还有另一点。

Here's another thing in the new rules.

他们不能再像以前那样利用你的购物记录了。

They cannot play with your shopping history like before.

因此，平台现在被严格禁止使用数据画像来对同一产品收取不同价格。

So platforms, they are now strictly prohibited from using data profiling to change different prices or charge different prices for the same product.

也就是说，他们不能查看你的消费记录。

So, essentially, they can't look at your spending history.

如果他们不能查看你的消费记录，那就无法判断你是否更愿意付款了。

So if they can't look at your spending history, then they can't decide if you are more willing to pay or not Mhmm.

相比新用户。

Than a new user.

这是一个巨大的变化。

That's a big change.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，与其说他们不能查看你的消费记录，不如说这项规则并不是禁止平台获取你的个人购物历史或数据。

And rather they can't see your spending history at all, it's like it's not a rule to ban the platform from gaining any access of your personal shopping history or data.

只是他们不能操纵这些数据。

It's just that they can't manipulate it.

他们仍然可以用它来影响你，嗯。

They can manipulate you with it Mhmm.

作为一种工具。

As a tool.

他们不能利用这些数据来判断你愿意支付多少。

They can't use that as a leverage to to decide how much you're willing to pay.

而且，早在2021年，我们就出台了个人信息保护法，这在某种程度上与此相悖。

And also, back in 2021, we had this personal information protection law, which kinda goes against it.

它明确界定了平台可以如何使用平台用户的个人数据。

Like like, it specify very clearly how much a platform can utilize the the platform users' personal data.

但仍然，那些开发这些平台的人可以嵌入不公平的算法，这些算法非常难以判断他们究竟对我们个人数据拥有多少访问权限。

But still, people who build those platforms can bake in unfair, like, algorithm writings that's very hard to determine just how much they truly have access of our personal data.

所以，这些新规则正是试图保护我们免受这种行为的影响。

So that's something that this new rules is trying to, you know, protect us from.

另一个正在被解决的问题是那些小字条款。

Another one being addressed is the fine print, if you will.

这又是另一个重要的问题。

So this is another big one.

默认同意不再被允许。

Default consent is no longer allowed.

你不能只是，或者他们也不能让你自动同意某些规则。

You can't just or they can't just make you auto agree to some types of rules.

我们都自动同意了，因为条款太长、太复杂了。

And we all auto agree because it's just too long, too complicated.

但现在，至少他们需要将重要条款以粗体显示，并且一旦对您的会员资格或您即将续订的会员资格做出重大变更，他们必须通知您。

But now, at least, they need to specify the important articles as bold text, and also, one, they make major changes about your membership or about the membership that you're you're about to continue.

他们必须告知您。

They need to let you know.

此外，在您的会员期间，他们不能秘密更改条款，偷偷削减您的权益。

And, also, during the time of your membership, they cannot really change articles secretly and sneaking into your benefit and takes them away from you.

他们不能再这样做了。

They cannot do that anymore.

这

This

这很好。

is quite good.

现在，对于会员购买，他们不能再中途更改条款了。

Now they will not be able to change things halfway through, if you will, for membership purchases.

是的。

Yes.

这意味着他们不能向你收取更多费用，或者像你所说的那样，悄悄剥夺你的权益。

And that means that they cannot charge you more or, like you said, quietly take away your benefits.

这一点很重要，因为如果你要续订某项会员服务，平台必须明确告知你任何变化。

And this will be important because if you're going to be renewing a membership to something, then the platform has to clearly tell you if anything has changed.

这些都是重大的变化。

These are all significant changes.

由于这些变化，公司现在不得不考虑：好吧。

Now because of these changes, the companies are thinking, alright.

我们必须遵守这些规定，但还有一些我们可以利用的漏洞，其中之一就是优惠券漏洞。

Well, we have to comply with these, but there are certain loopholes that we can take advantage of, and one of those is the coupon loophole.

因为对于不同的消费者，他们可以辩称——坦白说，这种做法是合法且被允许的。

Because for different consumers, they can argue that you have well, for to be honest, this one is legal, and it is allowed.

我指的是，根据你在该平台上的会员等级，他们仍然可以给你不同的价格，以体现你的忠诚度。

I'm talking about based on your level of membership in this platform, they can still give you differentiated price because it shows your loyalty.

对于在平台上等级更高的会员，他们可以降低价格，这仍然是可以接受的。

They can make the price lower for those level or for those those members who have higher level on the platform, that is still okay.

比如学生优惠券，这仍然可以接受，因为学生可以享受某种折扣，有时老师也可以，所以这没问题。

And for example, students coupon, that's still okay because students can enjoy a certain discount, sometimes teachers can as well, so that is still okay.

但这种优惠券就不同了，这感觉有点个人化，嗯。

But for this coupon one, this is personal, feels a little personal Mhmm.

有时候你和朋友看到同一个100元的价格，但你的朋友可能拿到30元的优惠券，而你只能拿到15元，你根本无法反驳或证明商家是在针对你设置价格。

Because sometimes you can maybe you and your friend see the same 100 price, but your friend could get a 30 yuan coupon, and you get a 15 yuan yuan, And you cannot really argue or prove that the shop owner is setting the price against your benefit.

是的。

Yeah.

这也正是现在很多人认为，这对许多平台来说是一种备选方案的原因。

And that's also why many people nowadays, they believe that this is to be a plan b for many platforms out there.

现在我们有了禁止平台利用我们的个人数据来构建用户画像的规则。

And now that we have rules to ban them from using our personal data to to to draw profiles on us.

所以新规则并不是明确允许或禁止这种做法，而是让平台更容易重新包装这种策略，尤其是针对新用户。

So it's not like the new rules allow this or ban this, but rather it's convenient for them to for these platforms to repackage the game, especially for new consumers.

当被质疑时，平台通常都能准备好现成的解释，比如：价格会随时间变动。

And and when questioned, the the platforms can usually just have ready made explanations like, oh, prices vary by time.

你知道的。

You know that.

还有根据地点不同。

And also by location too.

新用户会获得特别优惠。

And new users get special deals.

一直都是这样的。

That's always the case.

这是另一种个性化定价的方式。

That's another way of personalized price.

是的。

Yeah.

他们仍然可以推荐算法，也就是说，只要不是直接对完全相同的商品操纵价格，他们仍然可以基于你的价格承受能力或财务忍耐度来推荐你可能喜欢的产品。

They'll also still be allowed to recommend the algorithms, I mean, will still be allowed to recommend products that they think that you will like based on your price tolerance or pain financial pain tolerance, if you will, as long as they aren't directly manipulating the price for the exact same, item.

我想这个问题在中国变得越来越严重了。

I guess this has become more and and more and more of an issue here in China.

事实上，2021年曾有一项具有里程碑意义的法院判决，与我们今天讨论的内容密切相关。

And there was actually a landmark court ruling back in 2021 that's very closely related to exactly what we're talking about today.

那是什么？

What was that?

是的。

Yes.

我们讨论的是一位姓胡的消费者对在线旅游巨头携程提起的诉讼，他在2020年7月通过携程预订了一间希尔顿酒店的湖景房，价格接近2900元。

We are talking about a, consumer, surnamed Hu, in a lawsuit against online travel giant t oh, trip.com, and he had booked a really nice lake view room at a Hilton hotel through trip.com in July 2020 for nearly 2,900 yuan.

这超过了415美元。

That is over 415 US dollars.

结账时，她发现发票上列出的价格与她支付的价格不符。

Upon checkout, she discovered the room is listed price on her invoice.

实际上，列出的价格不到1400元。

Well, the listed price was under 100 1,400 yuan.

这表明她支付的价格超过了双倍。

That showed that she had paid for more than double.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是她遇到的问题。

So that is the problem she encountered.

她在在线平台购物时，因为个人情况而遭受了价格歧视。

That is when she was shopping on the online platform, she got discriminated, pricelessly, because of her personal situation.

当然很生气。

And, of course mad.

她很生气。

She was mad.

但最终，法院判决Trip.com退还差价，并向她支付总计近4800元。

But as a result, the court ordered trip.com to refund the price difference and to pay her a total of nearly 4,800 yuan.

因此，这一判决被援引为中国首例此类案件。

So the ruling was cited as the first case here in China.

正如史蒂夫所说，这件事发生在2020年。

And like Steve has said, it's back in 2020.

随着时间的推移，我们逐渐观察到越来越多不同类型的案例，有些仅涉及微小的价格差异，消费者觉得不值得花时间和精力去投诉。

And gradually, over the course of time, we are observing more and more different types of cases, some with just tiny price difference that are not worth the time and energy of the consumer to file a complaint.

但这种现象正变得越来越普遍，因此我们现在正试图理清：我们究竟有多重视保护消费者的权益。

Yet, the phenomenon is getting more and more common, and that is why now we're trying to at least make a sense of how much we care about protecting the rights of consumers.

说到这个，现在甚至还有一些线上社群、社交媒体群组，专门分享如何规避这些价格差异的技巧和窍门。

And speaking of which, there are even online groups, social media groups that give tips and tricks on how to circumvent these price differences.

是的。

Yeah.

他们是‘Momo军团’。

They are the Momo Army.

我不确定你有没有听说过，波兰。

I'm not sure if you've heard about it, Poland.

但特别是在小红书或Retino这样的平台上，有一群用户，头像都是同一个可爱的粉色卡通恐龙形象。

But especially on platforms like Xiaohongshu or or Retino, there's groups of users with identical profile picture of a cute little pink cartoon dinosaur.

他们的用户名总是叫‘Momo’。

And their username is always Momo.

所以这就是为什么他们被称为Momo军团。

So that's why they're referred to as Momo Army.

这意味着，那个粉红色恐龙头像背后的用户可能来自任何性别、任何年龄层，但他们都有一个共同的习惯：定期清除Cookie，尤其是在使用隐身模式浏览时，有时甚至减少应用使用，以逃避应用的持续追踪。

And that could mean that the user behind that avatar of a pink dinosaur is of all gender, of all age groups, but following a same habit of regularly clearing their cookies, especially in browsing in congi incognito mode, or sometimes reduce app usage even to escape constant profiling from the from the app.

暗黑模式。

Dark dark mode.

是的。

Yeah.

他们伪装成Momo，表面上看起来都一模一样，并且不断清除数据。

They're they're like going under a disguise of Momo so that they're they all look the same from the surface and they clear their data constantly.

人们评论说：一开始，我们不明白为什么突然间每个人都变成了Momo。

And people are commenting that, oh, at first, we don't understand why is everybody suddenly becoming Momo overnight.

但流行的说法是：看到Momo，质疑Momo，理解Momo，最终成为Momo。

But the slang goes, see Momo, question Momo, understand Momo, and eventually become Momo.

他们甚至可以把这做到极致。

And they can take it to extreme.

他们不仅更换设备或浏览器，使用匿名和隐私浏览模式，还发布误导性评论，比如：我买不起这个。

Not only are they switching devices or browsers, using using anonymous and private browsing modes, posting misleading comments like, I cannot buy this.

我只买得起一张机票。

I can only afford one ticket, airline ticket.

说‘是的’。

Say Yeah.

不断发表评论，并对着手机说话，仿佛外面真有人在听。

Comment commenting and continue talking to your phone as if there's someone listening out there.

几乎可笑。

Almost ridiculous.

几乎可笑。

Almost ridiculous.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这是一种有效的方式，某种程度上确实如此。

And also effective way, well, somehow Yeah.

是为了重新注册。

Is to reregistering.

这样当你重新注册时，就可以作为平台的新用户出现。

So that when you reregister to you can appear as a new user of the platform.

所以存在一些极端的做法。

So there are extreme ways.

但我得说，我不认为所有这些方法都那么有效。

But I have to say, I don't think all of these ways are that effective.

那我们来谈谈这个吧。

Well, let's talk about that then.

如果有的话，这种游戏预计会改变多少？

How how much is the game expected to change, if at all?

首先，平台现在被要求将其规则手册以透明且易于在其主页上找到的方式公开，以便在对任何政策进行重大更改之前征求反馈，特别是针对商家、美发沙龙或会员服务提供商等服务提供者。

Well, to start with, platforms are now required to make their rule books public in a way transparent and easy to find on their homepages so that, they need to ask for feedback before major changes happen to any of their policies, especially for the service providers like the shops or, I don't know, salons or or or, like, membership providers.

每当他们进行政策调整时，就像我们之前讨论的那样，比如健身房，有时一开始会提供24小时服务，但后来改成了早上九点到晚上十点。

Whenever they have policy changes like we discussed earlier, like for gyms, sometimes they offer you a twenty four seven service at the very beginning, but it changed to, I don't know, nine to ten nine in the morning to ten in the PM.

但你已经支付了会员费用。

But you you've already paid for the membership.

那你还能做什么呢？

So what can you do?

你就跳过那些时间段吗？

You just skip all those hours and or what?

你告他们吗？

You sue them?

是的。

Yeah.

不值得。

It's not worth it.

对。

Yeah.

所以对我们普通消费者来说，最重要的是我们现在能看到这些。

So that's what matters to us normal consumers to most is that we can see now.

如果有什么变动，我们需要在变动发生之前就知道。

And if there's a change to be made, we need to know prior to that happen.

这样能给人们足够的时间去适应，同时为受影响的商家或消费者提供更清晰的申诉途径。

So it really give people time to adjust plus clear ways, clearer ways to appeal if merchants or consumers are affected.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，争议解决的途径也要更明确，因为很多时候你根本不知道该找谁。

Also, clearer ways for dispute resolution because oftentimes, you don't know where to go.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，你报名了一家你以为是24小时营业的健身房。

Let's say that you did sign up for a gym that you thought was twenty four seven.

结果发现并不是。

Turns out it's not.

好吧。

Okay.

我对这件事不满意，但现在我能做什么呢？

I'm not happy about this, but what do I do now?

这是一个新的协议，即投诉不会再像以前那样石沉大海。

And this is one of the new the new deals is that complaints won't just disappear into a black hole.

你会知道该去哪里、该怎么做来解决纠纷。

You'll know where to go and what to do for conflict resolution.

是的。

Yes.

同时，当我们强调确保不滥用信息、购物历史或其他能共同构成你个人画像的信息的重要性时，我们会意识到，这远不止是购物价格的问题。

And at the same time, when we stress the importance of making sure the misuse of information of the history, shopping history, or other information that can jointly allow or jointly make up a portfolio of you, we would know that there are many to be honest, I think it's more than just shopping prices.

当这种信息滥用或个人数据被不当使用的情况发生时，许多问题就会浮现。

When this kind of things or this kind of misuse of information or of your private data happens, a lot of problems would emerge.

这并不是说这项法规能一夜之间解决所有问题。

And that is not to say that this one regulation can overnight solve the problem.

我认为我们之前讨论过，或者至少我提到过，国家正在明确表示，他们正在努力保护消费者的权益。

I think previously we talked about, or at least I worded as the country is making it clear that they are making an effort in protecting the rights of the consumers.

因为如果你认真想想，在这里，如果你想起诉公司或平台，你就需要收集所有数据、信息和证据。

Because if you really think about it, here, you have to if you want to to start with, if you want to sue the company, sue the platform, you need to collect all the data, all the information, and all the evidence.

是的。

Yeah.

从根本上说，你需要证明商家是因为你的身份而设置了歧视性价格，而不是因为他们的促销策略，也不是因为你所属的群体。

And at the at the core, you need to prove that the shop owner has set a discriminative price because of who you are, not because of their promotional strategy, not because of the people group you belong to.

这很难。

And that is hard.

但有了这项新规定，我们知道保护自己权利的成本正在降低，因此当你做出决定时，会更容易。

But with this new regulation, we know that the price or the cost of protecting your rights rights is lowering so that when you want to make that decision, it's easier.

这也向企业发出了警示信号。

And that is also a warning sign to the companies.

玉山，你说你不确定这种情况是否在世界其他地方也发生。

Yushan, you said you're not sure if this is happening in other parts of the world.

确实确实如此。

It absolutely absolutely is.

今年十一月，纽约的算法定价披露法案生效，这是全球首部此类法规，其中明确规定了相关内容。

In November, New York's algorithmic pricing disclosure act, which was a first of its kind statute, took effect, and it specifies this.

如果公司使用算法，根据您的个人数据（如购物历史、位置或过往行为）来设定或调整价格，他们必须在您看到价格的那一刻明确告知您。

If a company uses an algorithm to set or adjust prices based on your personal data, things like your shopping history, location, or past behavior, they have to tell you clearly right at the moment you see the price.

这是一项警示标签要求。

It's a warning label requirement.

因此，任何在纽约开展业务并使用算法和您的个人数据来设定价格的公司，都必须对此做出清晰明确的说明。

So any company doing business in New York that uses an algorithm and your personal data to set your price, they have to be crystal clear about it.

这就是他们现在必须做到的要求。

So this is what they are required to do now.

他们必须在您手机页面上显示一条通知，明确说明：此价格是通过使用您的个人数据的算法设定的。

They have to display a notice on the page on your phone that says very clearly, this price was set by an algorithm using your personal data.

这条通知必须非常醒目，确保您能清楚意识到这一点。

That has to be in your face so that you are aware of it.

如果公司未能遵守，每次违规最高可被处以1000美元的罚款。

And if you fail to comply, companies, then they could face a fine of up to $1,000 for each violation.

这听起来很有用，除非每家公司都这么做。

That sounds useful unless every company does that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

如果每家都的话。

If every yes.

如果你在滚动浏览时，每一样东西都显示‘此价格基于您的数据设定’，‘此价格基于您的数据设定’，是的。

If everything you look at as you scroll down says this has been set based on your data, this has been set based on your data yeah.

没错。

Right.

那肯定就失去效果了。

Then it loses its impact for sure.

如果他们不这样做，我相信消费者甚至可以举报他们没有履行应尽的义务。

And if they don't, I I believe consumers can even report that they're not doing what's required.

对吧？

Right?

现在他们正在建立一种机制。

There's a mechanism they're building now.

顺便问一下，你关心这个吗？

Do you care about this, by the way?

我的意思是，这对你来说很重要吗？

I mean, is this big for you?

你之前有没有被冒犯过？

Were you personally insulted before?

你知道算法是根据某些因素定价的，但玉山直到大约24小时前才知道。

You knew algorithms were setting a price based on well, Yushan didn't know until about twenty four hours ago.

很多人知道并意识到，他们的价格是专门根据他们的情况设定的。

Many people know and are aware that that their prices are being set specifically for them.

你对这个问题有意见吗，还是没有？

Do you have an issue with this, or do you not?

这就是问题所在。

That's the problem.

我认为，当我们面对那些在漂亮的数据中心里运行算法的庞大机器时，我们会感到很无奈，因为一开始损失并不大，直到它变得巨大为止。

I think when we are up against a huge machine in certain kind of beautiful data centers running the numbers, we are kind of frustrating because there's not a lot that we can do, and the loss is not massive until it becomes massive.

这就是问题所在。

And that's the problem.

你其实不想跟一家奶茶店争论，因为它们多收了你朋友0.5元，直到你买了上万杯后才发现损失已经巨大。

You don't really wanna argue with a drinking shop because they charged you 0.5 yuan more than your friend until you bought your 10,000 cup and realized that the loss is huge.

这也部分解释了为什么我认为这项监管非常重要。

And that is partly also why I believe that this regulation is significant.

因为首先，我们要明确传达出国家对此的关注，并采取行动来应对这个问题。

That is because, to start with, we're making it clear that the country cares, and we are doing things to address it.

而且，我认为纽约的这项监管至少也是一个不错的契机，能让消费者至少意识到这一点。

And also, I think the New York regulation is also at least a good temptation to make sure that at least consumers are aware of it.