太空的下一批先驱者并不穿着宇航服

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

解读趋势，剖析头条新闻。

Translating the trends and deciphering the headlines.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

我是林业火。

I'm Yeoho Lin.

从火箭到玫瑰，从卫星到太空工厂，在上一期节目中，我们已经确认中国商业航天正从愿景迈向实际应用。

From rockets to roses, from satellites to space factories, in our previous episode, we've established that China's commercial space industry is moving from ambition to application.

这里有一种思考其未来的好方法。

Here is a useful way to think about the future of it.

商业航天不仅仅是卖午餐，而是在出售选择权。

Commercial space is not just selling lunches, it's selling optionality.

为各行业提供在地球上无法实现的创意测试机会。

Optionality for industries to test ideas that are impossible on earth.

为企业缩短研发周期提供可能性。

Optionality for companies to shorten R and D cycles.

为各国在传统产业放缓时构建新的增长引擎提供选择。

Optionality for countries to build new growth engines when traditional industries slow down.

而正是在这里，事情变得有趣起来。

And that's where things get interesting.

所以今天，让我们看看，下一章的书写者不仅限于宇航员，还包括那些从未离开地球、却已正在塑造人类未来太空命运的农民、工程师、科学家和政策制定者。

So today, let's see why the next chapter is not only written by astronauts alone, but by farmers, engineers, scientists, and policymakers who may never leave Earth yet are already shaping humanity's future beyond it.

在本期节目中，我邀请到了费菲和史蒂夫·哈瑟利。

For today's show, I'm joined by Fei Fei and Steve Hatherley.

现在，请坐下来，加入我们的讨论。

Now pull up a chair and join the conversation.

一旦太空变得可负担，它就会变得有用。

Once space becomes affordable, it becomes useful.

一旦它变得有用，每个人都想分一杯羹。

And once it becomes useful, everyone wants a piece of it.

那么，谁真正受益了？谁又付出了代价？

So who's actually benefiting and who's paying the price?

这将是我们的太空话题，尤其是商业太空产业主题的第二部分。

This would be the second part of our space, especially commercial space related industry topic.

让我们从三个层面来分解这个问题。

And let's break this down into three layers.

不同行业如何利用太空，是什么在一定程度上阻碍了该行业的发展，以及政策如何努力跟上，以便行业能更好地发展。

How different industries are using space, what's holding the sector back a little bit, and how policy can try to catch up so that the industry can develop better.

首先，从跨文化或跨行业的应用来看，我们知道商业太空产业不仅在中国，而且在全球范围内都还是一个新兴事物。

So starting with some cross cultural or cross industry application, we know that the commercial space industry is still something new not only in China but around the world.

它仍在发展中，也在探索如何更好地开展这项事业。

It's still something that are developing and also exploring a little bit how to do it.

但我很高兴看到，许多不同的行业和领域已经充分利用了这一点，试图从太空中发掘潜在价值，首先是农业领域。

But I am very glad to see that many different industries, many different sectors are already taking advantage of it and trying to see what can come out from the space, starting with the agriculture industry.

所以我很想知道农业领域是如何在太空中进行实验，寻找新的可能种子和新物种的

So I'm curious to know how does the agriculture industry experiment and also just, you know, find new possible seeds, new possible species

在太空中吗？

in the space?

嗯，历史上在太空中进行的研究与开发主要是为了在太空中生存。

Well, the the research and development that's been done in space historically has been for survival in space.

但当我们谈论商业化时，是为了在地球上生存。

But when we're talking about commercialization, it's for survival on Earth.

我所说的这意味着，我们现在的地球正面临一场完美的风暴。

And what I mean by that is we're facing kind of a perfect storm, with our planet right now.

我们面临着气候变化。

We've got climate change.

我们面临着资源短缺，同时全球人口仍在增长。

We've got resource scarcity, and we have a still growing global population.

你知道，许多国家正面临人口老龄化问题，但全球人口在未来五十年到六十年内预计将继续增长。

You know, a lot of countries are dealing with an aging population, but globally, the world's population is projected to continue growing for the next fifty or sixty years.

他们实际上估计，到2080年代中期，全球人口将达到约103亿。

They actually estimate, that it will peak out at about 10,300,000,000 by the mid twenty eighties.

所以我们离达到这个数字还有相当长的路要走。

So we still have quite a ways to go until we get there.

说到太空种子以及类似的东西，还有太空中农业的发展情况。

Asking about, you know, space seeds and and things like that and and and what's going on agriculturally in space.

我来举一个非常具体的例子。

I'll I'll talk about one very specific example.

当我们谈论太空农业和科学家在那里所做的工作时，这就像按下了快进键，加速培育出新的植物品种。

When we're talking about agriculture in space and what scientists are doing there, it's like hitting a fast forward button to create new plant species.

比如在地球上，如果你想让番茄获得一种新性状，比如更耐旱，以便在干旱环境中种植，

So on Earth, for example, if you want want to get a new trait from a tomato, for example Mhmm.

那么育种者可能需要经过许多代的杂交，花费多年时间——不是很多代人，而是很多代植物，这仍然需要很多年，而且他们只能寄希望于偶然的变异。

That's maybe more drought resistant so that you can grow it in arid environments, well, breeders of that tomato might have to cross breed plants for many generations over many years, many generations of plants, not many generations of people, but it'll still take years and they'll hope for a lucky change.

是的。

Mhmm.

如果他们运气好的话，就能找到。

If they're lucky, they can find it.

对。

Mhmm.

但当你将宇宙辐射照射到番茄植株的种子上时，就会瞬间产生效果，这种辐射会在植物的DNA代码中同时制造出无数微小的随机错误。

But when you apply cosmic radiation to that tomato's plant's seeds, you kind of zoop, you zap it, and then what that radiation does is it creates these tiny random kind of typos in the plant's DNA code all at the same time.

想象一下，把一副牌以极快的速度洗牌，迅速生成上千种不同的植物变体。

Imagine shuffling a deck of cards at really high speeds, and it quickly creates a thousand different versions of the plant.

因此，在地球上，科学家们可以迅速从这副庞大的牌中找出那张稀有的牌。

So back on Earth, scientists, they can quickly look through this big deck of cards to find that one rare card.

这张稀有的牌就是那株恰好因偶然获得有用新性状的植物——比如能在干旱环境中生长、生长更快或更有营养，因为辐射造成的错误或损伤迅速引发了种子中的突变或变异。

That rare card would be that one plant that by pure chance now has a useful new trait like being able to grow in air environments or growing faster or being more nutritious because the typo or the damage caused by the radiation created very quickly the mutations or the variations in the plant seeds.

我们已经在全中国乃至全世界享受着这种成果。

We are already enjoying this nationwide and worldwide.

中国自二十世纪八十年代起就利用可回收卫星和航天器开展太空育种，只不过当时这还是国家级项目。

China has conducted space breeding since the nineteen eighties using the recoverable satellites and spacecraft, only that at that time, it's still the national projects.

现在我们正在探索将这种技术扩展到商业领域的可能性。

Now we're looking at possibilities of having that expand to commercial sectors as well.

当我们去西章出差时，余勋自己抱了一个巨大的太空南瓜。

And when we were having a business trip in Xizhang, Yu Xun himself hugged a huge space pumpkin.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Right.

特别大。

Was huge.

这非常有趣，但也说明了这些太空诱变的物种是多么普及和常见。

It was very much fun, but it also shows how popular and how common these space induced mutated kind of species are.

这真的非常有趣，简单的比喻就像是把一颗种子送到太空中的新兵训练营。

It's really kind of fascinating, and the simple analogy would be like sending a a seed to a boot camp in space.

这对植物来说是一个高压环境，有些植物会因此随机获得有用的全新特性。

It's a high stress environment for the plant, and some will come out with these random useful new skills.

这些就是植物的突变，植物的新技能。

Those would be the mutations in the plant, the new skills of the plant.

通过观察它们在恶劣环境中挣扎与适应，科学家们可以了解到种子中关于力量与韧性的深层奥秘，而这些奥秘可以应用回地球上来。

And then by watching them struggle and adapt in that difficult environment, the scientists can learn the deep secrets that, exist about strength and resilience, within the seeds, and those can be put to use back here on planet Earth.

我所说的这些秘密，是植物可能具备的能力，而地球上从事研究的科学家们可能根本不知道。

And these types of secrets that I said, these are things that the plant could be capable of that scientists here doing research on Earth might never know about.

我认为他们也在研究某种植物。

And I think they are also, for example, working on some sort of plants.

比如土豆，我们知道目前我们只吃土豆植物的一部分，但我认为他们在太空中研究，看这些突变是否能让我们食用整个植物。

For example, for potatoes, We know that currently, we're only eating a part of the plant potatoes, but I think they are working in space to see if the mutations can help us eat the whole plant.

这也能解决世界上许多国家的食物短缺和饥饿问题。

And that can also solve the food insecurity and and all hunger problems in many, many countries in the world.

所以当你想到这部电影，你知道的，就是在火星上种土豆，嗯。

So when you thought thought when I think about the movie, you know, growing potatoes on Mars Mhmm.

这其实并不是那么科幻，背后是有科学依据的，虽然仍然很科幻。

It's actually not really that sci fi has science behind still very sci fi.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

我的意思是，这些才是推动因素。

And I mean, the these are the drivers.

对吧？

Right?

应对气候变化、资源短缺、全球粮食安全以及太空的极端环境，太空充当了检验种子和植物韧性的完美试验场，从而找到解决这些问题的农业方案，而他们在太空中发现的成果对我们地球上的生活大有裨益。

Addressing climate change and our and our scarcity of our resources and and our global food security and the extreme environment of space, it acts as a perfect testing ground for the resilience of the seeds and the plants and the to find agricultural solutions to problems, and what they find in space is beneficial to us here on Earth.

我们现在有了无土栽培，也就是水培或气培。

We now have soilless farming, which is hydroponics or aeroponics as that's referred to.

这些技术最初是为了在航天器上节约用水和提高空间效率而开发的，但现在已成为利润丰厚的城市垂直农业的基础。

It was done for for water and space efficiency on spacecraft, but these systems are now the foundation of very profitable urban vertical farming Yeah.

这些产业用极少的水和土地就能生产粮食。

Industries, and and they produce food with very minimal water and land.

我了解到，微重力会改变植物的细胞分裂模式、根系方向和水分运输。

I learned that we know microgravity would change the patterns of cell division, root orientation, and water transport in plants.

这有助于隔离控制开花、抗逆性、养分分配的关键通路，正如史蒂夫所说，这些通路已被用于太空水稻及其他相关实验，能够为地球上的育种和栽培策略提供指导。

It would help isolate key pathways governing flowering, stress resistance, nutrient allocation, and like Steve said, that have been used in space rice and other kind of experiments, which can inform breeding and cultivation strategies on Earth.

所以，我们不仅试图在物种和种子中诱导某种突变。

So not that is why not only are we trying to induce some kind of mutation in the species, in the seeds.

2022年，中国还在天宫空间站完成了首次完整的水稻生命周期栽培实验。

In 2022, China has also completed the first full life cycle rice cultivation experiment on the Tiangong Space station.

目的是观察微重力如何影响整个植物生长过程，嗯，也就是食物的生长过程。

That is to see how microgravity would affect the entire growing process of the fruit well, of the food Mhmm.

植物。

The plant.

我们之前在圆桌讨论中谈过，人工智能如何也影响着温室环境，这些环境在温度、湿度和光照方面都受到严格控制，而这些正是在空间站上为让植物生长所必须做到的。

We've talked on Roundtable before about how AI is having an influence in greenhouses as well, and those environments are very tightly controlled in terms of temperature and humidity and light, and these are the things that they do and and are necessary to do on space stations in order to get the plants to grow.

他们在那里的研究和发现，直接促成了我们现在地球上这些先进的节能温室系统，这些系统非常出色，因为它们能提高每茬作物的水果和蔬菜产量，同时大幅减少商业运营中水、土壤、肥料等资源的消耗。

And the research that they've done there and the discoveries that they've made there have directly led to these types of advanced energy efficient greenhouse systems that we have now here on Earth, and these are amazing because they boost the yield, the amount of fruits and vegetables that we can get per crop, and it also reduces the amount of resources that are used in commercial operations to the amount of water and soil or fertilizer and things like that.

是的。

Yes.

除了农业之外，我们还看到其他行业也试图将自己的实验装置装上卫星，以便送入太空进行特定实验。

And besides agriculture, we also see other sectors trying to squeeze themselves in to a satellite so they can be sent up there to do certain experiments.

但这是否也与生物学有关，比如制药业和医药相关产业？

But it's all it also has something to do with biology that would be pharmaceutical industry and medicine related industry?

因为我们知道，这些公司对微重力实验也非常感兴趣，尤其是与蛋白质相关的实验以及药物筛选。

Because we know that these companies are very interested as well in microgravity experiments, and especially for protein related process experiments, as well as drug screening.

那么背后的逻辑是什么？

So what's logic behind that?

是的。

Yeah.

关于蛋白质结晶，这真的非常有趣。

So for protein crystallization, this is really kind of cool to to learn about.

在地球上，重力会导致对流，这意味着流体的运动，同时也导致沉降，也就是物质下沉。

So the problem here on Earth is that gravity causes convection, and that means the the movement of fluids, and it also causes sedimentation, which means things sinking.

当你试图培养出完美的蛋白质微观晶体时——这就像为蛋白质拍摄一张三维原子图像，以便设计出能完美契合它的药物，也就是解开谜题的钥匙。

So when you're trying to grow a perfect microscopic crystal of a protein, which is like taking a three d atomic photo of it to design a a drug that perfectly fit fits it, the key that will unlock the puzzle, so to speak.

这些力会制造缺陷，导致晶体变得杂乱，就像看一张模糊的照片。

The forces create flaws, and the crystals get messy, and it's like looking at a blurry photograph.

但在微重力环境下，解决方案几乎是完美的，因为在这种环境中重力基本消失，蛋白质会漂浮并缓慢均匀地组装，这使得它们能够形成更大、更有序的晶体。从商业角度来看，用照片来比喻的话，这就是一张更清晰的蛋白质图像。

But the solution in microgravity is where they can find almost perfection because with gravity mostly absent in that environment, the proteins float and they assemble slowly and evenly, and this is this is allowing them to form larger, more perfectly ordered crystals, and the commercial payoff of this is a clearer well, to use the photo analogy again, it's a clearer picture of the protein.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们谈论的不是你所知道的头痛药的研发。

And we're talking about things we're not talking about, you know, developing headache medicine here.

我们谈论的是寻找癌症或阿尔茨海默病的治疗方法，而拥有更清晰的蛋白质图像，意味着科学家可以设计出像钥匙精准匹配锁孔一样的药物分子，实现极其精确的契合，这大大加速了更有效、更具靶向性的药物研发。

We're talking about things looking for cures for cancer or Alzheimer's, and having that better picture or the clearer photo of the protein, it means that scientists can design a drug molecule that fits like a a key to that puzzle or or to that lock with really incredible precision, and this really, really speeds up the creation of more effective and targeted medicines.

我知道这一点。

And I you know that.

这也让我想到，其他制造领域也遵循着非常相似的原理。

It also reminds me of, for example, in other manufacturing that also follow very similar theories.

比如半导体制造中的芯片生产。

It's, for example, in the producing of chips in semiconductor manufacturing.

这也是许多研究人员和工厂一直在困惑和挣扎的问题：如何获得完美的晶体。

That's what's also a lot of the researchers and factories are been puzzling about, have been struggling about is to get those crystals in a perfect condition.

我们知道，例如，制造芯片需要极高纯度的硅。

And we know that, for example, to making chips, we need very high level of purity of silicon.

世界上最好的制造商能够达到高达99.999%的纯度。

And the best manufacturers in the world are able to get like 99.999% of the purity.

但这已经是行业的极限了。

But that's like the ceiling of the industry.

他们在地球上能做到的就只有这些。

That's all they can do on earth.

但在类似的微重力环境下，他们现在也能像史蒂夫提到的蛋白质晶体那样，有序地排列自己的晶体。

But with a similar macro gravity environment, they now can also arrange their crystals like what Steve mentioned with protein crystals.

因此，他们现在有望实现100%纯度的硅，从而制造出更便宜、性能更好的半导体芯片。

So they can now looking at possibilities of 100% of pure silicon and making more cheaper, better chips for semiconductors.

所以我认为，这种环境为科学家提供了一个完美的实验室，让他们可以自由测试任何想法。

So I think that environment is giving scientists this perfect lab that they can just test whatever they have in mind.

另外，在半导体领域，另一个问题是关于容器的密封性。

And also, when it comes to semiconductor, another issue with that is about containment.

你知道，在地球上，当你试图达到那种纯度时，很难做到完全不让氧气渗入你的

You know, on earth, when you are trying to get that level of purity, you just it's very difficult to get zero zero oxygen leaked into your

实验室。

lab.

好的。

Okay.

或者不让任何物质渗入你的实验室。

Or zero anything leaked into your lab.

但在微重力环境中，这种密封问题几乎不存在。

But on macro in macro gravity environment, that containment issue is almost doesn't exist.

因此，他们能够非常快速、高效地制备出先进的材料。

So they are they are able to get very advanced materials done very fast, very efficiently.

不仅芯片的性能会更好，而且还能节省更多能源。

Not only there will be the chips will perform better, but, they can use less energy.

我们知道，在地球上制造过程消耗大量能源。

We know, you know, manufacturing consume a lot of energy on Earth.

但当把制造搬到太空时，实际上也降低了能源需求。

But when putting up on space, it actually reduces the demands for energy as well.

所以，至少对于半导体来说，太空基本上是一个完美的工厂选址。

So it's basically like a perfect place for a space factory for semiconductors at least.

是的。

Yeah.

这两个看似不相关的行业之间，其逻辑其实非常相似。

The logics are quite similar here between these two seemingly not related industry.

我还在思考我们这个领域是如何在脑海中形成完整闭环的。

I'm also thinking about the full circle our segment that is finding the logic in mind.

对。

Yes.

我们知道，这也是中国早在神舟计划初期就开始在太空中进行蛋白质结晶实验的原因之一。

And we know that is also part of the reason that China has began protein crystallization experiments in space early in the Shenzhou program.

正如费费所说，制药行业发现，在微重力环境下生长的蛋白质晶体通常更大、更均匀、缺陷更少，这有助于确保找到合适蛋白质的过程显著缩短，从而提高效率，并缩短药物研发周期。

And like Fei Fei said, the pharmaceutical industry find that the protein crystals grown in microgravity often become larger, more uniform, and less defective and enabling to make sure that the process of finding the right protein for things are definitely shortened, which would be more effective, and it can shorten also drug development timeline.

另一个非常酷的方面是，在地球实验室中观察培养皿与在太空中进行实验的差异。

Another really cool thing is the difference of looking at a lab dish versus how they can do it in space.

当地球上的科学家在实验室中培养细胞时，细胞会在一个扁平的培养皿中生长，这其实是一种二维结构，而这种结构无法真实反映复杂三维组织和器官（如肿瘤或脑组织）在人体内的运作方式。

So when scientists here on Earth are growing cells in a lab, they grow in a flat, like a petri dish, right, which is a two d layer, and that's a really poor representation of how complex three d tissues and organs like tumors or brain matter, how they work in our our own bodies.

我们并不是二维生物。

We are not two d beings.

因此，在地球实验室中使用扁平细胞测试药物，常常会导致误导性的结果；但在微重力环境中，重力不再将细胞向下拉扯。

So testing drugs on the flat cells in earthly labs, it can often lead to misleading results, but when you do this, when they do this in a microgravity environment, there's no gravity pulling down on the cells.

这意味着细胞可以自由地组装成复杂的三维结构，这些结构就像是器官的微型简化版本，比如微型大脑或微型肿瘤之类的东西。

That means that the cells can freely assemble into these complex three d structures, and these are like miniature simplified versions of organs, like a tiny brain or a tiny tumor or something like that.

在中国，我们知道，当谈到太空计划、太空实验和太空发展策略时，不同国家的做法各不相同。

And here in China, we know that, well, I think when it comes to space programs and space experiments and space developing strategies, different countries are different.

例如，我们知道美国的模式主要由国际空间站国家实验室项目驱动，大型制药公司会提出他们希望在这些国家太空实验室中开展的实验项目。

For example, we know The United States, their model is mainly driven primarily by ISS, National Lab Projects, with big pharmaceutical companies providing or giving or offering the kind of experiment they would like to do, they would like to conduct in these national national space labs.

但中国目前仍在采用一种双重模式，即国家空间站加上商业返回舱。

But China here is still working on a dual approach of national space station plus commercial return capsules kind of model.

这种模式的理念是，国家空间站负责长期复杂的实验，而商业返回舱则提供短周期、高频次、小批量的药物和材料实验，并带回样本，从而逐步培育市场需求。

The idea is that the national hosts long term complicated experiments while the commercial capsules provide short cycle, high frequency, and small batch drug and materials experiments with sample return, and that would gradually cultivate the department demand.

此外，开展这类相对成本较低的项目，也能确保任何希望进入商业航天领域的公司，在每一步都不会面临巨大的财务风险。

And also doing these kind of relatively less cost costly kind of projects would also make sure that the each step of any company, if you wanna tap the water of the commercial space area, you won't be looking at a huge risk financially.

嗯。

Mhmm.

另外，我想提醒一下，比如我们谈到太空环境在农业和植物方面的应用。

Also, I think for that reminds me, like, for example, if we're talking about the the use of space environment in agriculture in plants.

在国家层面，我们肯定需要开发与粮食安全相关的东西，比如水稻、小麦。

On national level, we definitely need to develop things that matter to our food security like rice, like wheat.

但比如我们昨天提到的丽红卫星，他们正在测试中国玫瑰。

But for example, on that Lihong satellite that we talked about yesterday, they are testing with Chinese roses.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我

I

我的意思是，他们现在可以研究一些更小众、目前对市场来说可能没什么意义的领域。

mean, they now can look into more niche, sometimes not really making sense right now to the market.

这并不那么必要。

Totem quote not that necessary.

是的。

Yeah.

但还是很有趣。

But it's still fun.

是的。

Yeah.

非常有趣。

It's much fun.

而且你永远不知道最后会得到什么。

And you you never know what you'll get in the end.

所以这就像在外面进行实验，测试每一个可能的选项，看看你可能会得到什么结果，你知道的，令人惊讶的结果。

So it's like experimenting out there, testing every possible options, and to see what results you may get, you know, surprisingly.

是的。

Yes.

昨天，我们谈到过在太空中、月球上，甚至有一天在火星上建造数据中心，以及更深入神秘太空的可能性。

Yesterday, we talked we mentioned a little bit about data center being built in space, on the moon, probably one day on Mars, and even more deep in the mysterious space.

那么，为什么大家都在谈论太空中的数据中心呢？

So why is everybody talking about the data centers in space?

有什么优势？

What are the advantages?

首先，地球上的数据中心也面临着一些问题，首先是能源消耗本身。

Well, first of all, data centers on Earth are also having its troubles, first of all, in the use of energy itself.

想象一下，微软为了一个数据中心，可能需要建造一座核电站。

Imagine for Microsoft, they need to build a nuclear power plant for one data center.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且它们还消耗大量水资源，而水资源对地球上许多人的生计来说已经至关重要。

And they are using also consuming a lot of water, which is already a very important source for many livelihoods on the Earth.

因此，当考虑太空中的数据中心时，它确实能解决我们在地球上面临的全部问题。

And now so when looking at data centers in space, that can really solve all the problems, all the issues that we have on earth.

例如，在能源方面，如果我们把这些数据中心建在昼夜交界处

For example, when it comes to energy, if we place these data centers in a place that remain on the boundary of the night and day

可以利用太阳吗？

Can use the sun?

它们可以全天候利用太阳能。

They can use the sun twenty four seven.

是的。

Mhmm.

在地球上，它们只能在大约25%的时间内利用太阳能。

Well, on the earth, it's only, like, 25% of the time that they can tap into the solar energy.

此外，关于冷却问题——这也是地球上数据中心消耗大量水资源的原因，因为设备24小时运行，产生大量热量，需要冷却。

And also, when it comes to the cooling, which is why they consume so much water in in the earthly data centers, is to cool the the the, you know, the equipment because they run twenty four seven, and they generate a lot of heat.

但当我们把它们放在太空中时，太空中的自然环境温度约为零下270摄氏度。

But when we put them on the space, they have this natural cold environment, roughly minus 270 degrees Celsius in space.

所以你根本不需要担心散热问题。

So you don't really need to worry about cooling.

而且，在太空中，许多散热器可以让这些数据中心将热量直接排放到真空环境中。

And also when it comes to a lot of the the the radiators in the space, the these data centers can basically dump their heat into that vacuum environment.

因此，它们在冷却方面完全不需要用水。

So they don't need they need zero water for cooling at the same time.

资源是地球上数据中心面临的一个问题。

Resources is an issue for data centers on Earth.

太空中也是如此。

Also, space.

它们占用大量空间。

They take up a lot of space.

是的。

Yes.

不。

No.

它们确实如此。

They do.

而且它们在太空中。

And they're in the space.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，它们占用了大量空间。

Well, they they take up a lot of area.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你知道，这将成为一个如何安置这些设备的问题，因为住宅区的人们并不一定希望这些设备靠近他们的家。

You know, it's gonna become an issue of where to put these things because people in residential areas don't necessarily want these things near their near their homes.

但公平地说，中国已经在深海区域，比如水下，设立了数据中心，这样不会占用太多空间。

Well, to be fair, China has set a data center in deep sea area, like underwater so that it does not take as much space.

但这个逻辑是成立的。

But think the logic is there.

占用空间少，还能利用寒冷的环境。

Do not take much space and also take advantage of the cold environment.

我认为中国研究机构也提出了一个数据中心的方案。

And I think there is also a data center proposed by Chinese research institutes.

这是一个由16颗卫星组成的太空数据中心，设计得非常完美。

It's a 16 satellite space data center, and it is perfectly designed.

就像费费刚刚描述的那样，它能全天候利用太阳能供电，同时利用零下270度的宇宙背景进行被动冷却，这可以大幅降低数据中心的冷却能耗，为耗能巨大的AI计算提供可扩展的能源和热管理解决方案。

Like Fei Fei has just described, it can have a twenty four seven solar energy to power it, and also it's exploiting the minus 270 degree cosmic background for passive cooling, and that can dramatically reduce the cooling energy for data centers and providing the scalable energy and thermal solution for power hungry AI computing.

所以我们正在期待这种情况的发生。

So we are looking at that happening.

希望它能实现。

Hopefully, it'll happen.

它能同时解决能源问题和空间问题。

It can solve both the energy problem and also the space problem.

昨天北京感觉有零下270度。

Felt like it was minus 270 degrees in Beijing yesterday.

我们停车场本来可以建个大型数据中心。

Could have built a big data center in our parking lot.

那会完美适用。

It would've worked perfectly.

很冷。

Cold.

是的。

Yes.

我唯一的问题是，这是一个16颗卫星组成的数据中心。

Only problem or question that I have is that this is a 16 satellite data center.

我们需要这么多卫星吗？

Do we need that many satellites?

我认为从规模上看，这个数据中心也不算大。

Well, I think by scale, this data center is also not a big one.

如果我们谈论的是那些拥有大量计算能力的大规模数据中心，可能我们需要数百颗卫星。

If we're talking about big set of data centers that have a lot of computing power, possibly, we're going to need hundreds of satellites.

数百颗卫星？

Hundreds of satellites?

是的。

Yes.

这可能会在未来引发另一个问题，你知道，太空中——也就是轨道上的空间——是有限的。

And that can lead to another problem in the future is, you know, there is only limited space in space, you know, in the orbit.

所以如果我们为这个数据中心发射100颗卫星，再为另一个数据中心发射100颗，就会发生碰撞，嗯。

So if we are launching, for example, 100 satellites for this data center, another 100 for another one, You know, there will be collision Mhmm.

有时确实会发生，而且还会非常拥挤。

Sometimes happening and also very crowded.

因此，如何应对这个问题，我认为将是国际上的一个重大难题。

So how to tackle that would be a major problem internationally, I would say.

你指的是太空碎片吗？

Space space debris you're talking about?

是的。

Yeah.

需要清理它。

Having to clean it up.

对。

Yes.

此外，当谈到数据中心时，人们也在非常聪明且有策略地使用多个卫星，因为首先，这是一个地球上的数据中心。

And besides, when it comes to data center, people are also being very smart and strategic about multiple satellites because, one, it's a data center on Earth.

你无法轻易地移动不同的单元。

You can't really move different units around that easily.

但在轨道上联网多个卫星是可行的。

But networking multiple satellites in orbit is possible.

这意味着你可以将空间计算平台分布到不同的层级。

And that means you can distribute the space compute platform to different layers.

这就像一个分布式空间计算平台，可以将某些AI接口任务卸载到轨道上，减少原始遥感或通信数据的下行量，并与地面数据中心形成分工协作——在轨道上，某些数据可以被存储。

It's kinda like a distributed space compute platform can offload certain AI interface tasks to orbit, reducing raw remote sensing or communication data downlink volume and coordinating with ground data centers in a division of labor that, like, in the orbit, something can be storaged.

当你需要发送回信息时，可以发送到更接近地球的区域，这样更容易，也相对更节能。

When you want to send back the information, it can be a closer in a closer area to Earth so so that it's easier and also relatively more energy less energy consuming.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

而且，当涉及到在轨道上的卫星之间，以及太空与地球地面之间传输数据时，情况也是如此。

And also when it comes to moving the datas between at least not only between the data the satellites themselves in orbit, but also between the space and ground on Earth.

由于我们在这集中频繁提到的真空环境，传输速度也更快。

It's also faster because of the vacuum environment we've been talking about so frequently in this episode.

它比目前地球上使用的普通光纤传输快30%。

It can it can be 30 time 30% faster than through the normal, you know, fiber glass on Earth that we are using currently.

而且这也让我想到，现在如果我们去太空，基本上就不能使用自己的手机了，因为那里没有信号覆盖。

And also, that make me think, you know, right now, if we go into space, basically meaning we are not able to use our own phone because there will be no coverage.

啊。

Ah.

太空中没有青少年。

We No teenagers in space.

是的。

Yeah.

在太空中不能玩手机游戏。

No playing on your mobile games on on in space.

是的。

Yeah.

但也许未来在太空中部署了数据中心后，普通游客甚至宇航员自己就能更容易地打电话，彼此联系，也能与地球保持连接。

But maybe with data centers installed in the future in space, it may be easier for at least ordinary travelers or at least astronauts themselves to make calls to get connected with each other and also to Earth.

但你之前已经提到了一个非常重要的点，那就是即使在太空中，空间也不够用。

But you mentioned something very important already earlier about the fact that even it's in space, it's not enough space in space.

我们正在关注过多的潜在卫星。

We are looking at too many possible satellites.

我们正在考虑为运载卫星的火箭保留重要的空间，同时也关注太空碎片问题。

We are looking at preserving important space for rockets who are sending us, sending up the satellites, and also we're looking at space debris.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，这些可以说是我们在发展航天产业或商业航天产业时遇到的相对表面或浅层的问题。

So these would be the, relatively speaking, superficial or surface level kind of problems we meet when it comes to the development of space industry or commercial space industry.

但除此之外，我们是否还面临其他一些瓶颈，比如成本、可靠性、监管、人才等方面，值得我们关注？

But besides that, are we looking at some other relatively, let's say, bottlenecks, cost, reliability, regulation, talent, anything that's worth our attention?

首先，资金耗尽绝对是主要问题之一。

Well, first of all, the financial burnout is definitely one of the major thing.

我认为，尽管我们现在讨论的这些技术似乎都触手可及，

I think even though we are talking about in right now, it seems like a lot of these technologies are so reachable.

但如果我们把传统农业方式与使用航天相关技术进行比较，后者仍然非常昂贵。

It's still quite expensive if we compare, for example, farming in traditional methods and both using a space related technology.

在商业航天领域，许多公司往往需要在多年研发上投入数十亿美元，才能看到任何收入或利润。

So for a lot, especially in commercial space industry, a lot of the companies would have spent billions of dollars in their research and development for years before they see any revenues in profit.

是的。

Mhmm.

你可以想象，有多少公司能够做到这一点，并维持这样的运营。

You can imagine how many companies are able to do that, can sustain that kind of operation.

这对许多公司和初创企业，尤其是在初期阶段，都是一个重大问题。

So that would be a big question for many companies and many startups, especially in the beginning phase.

我认为这不仅需要政府支持，还需要更好的市场策略。

And I think that really demands not only government support, but also better market strategies out there.

关于可重复使用性，我想我们昨天也提到过。

And also for when it comes to reusability, I think we also touched on that yesterday.

它仍然面临很多困难。

It still faces a lot of difficulties.

尽管最近中国有几起成功的案例，我们的火箭实现了部分回收，但这并不意味着百分之百成功。

Even though we're talking about several successful cases in China recently that we are able to reuse some of our rockets, it doesn't mean it's 100% successful.

如果研究人员能关注火箭长期回收过程中的不同阶段，仍然会存在一些障碍和需要解决的问题。

If would the researchers been looking at different phase of the long term recycle of those rockets, there is still some, you know, hurdles in the way, some problems that they need to fix.

因此，我们目前描绘的许多场景实际上并未大规模实现，也尚未惠及很多人。

So a lot of the pictures that we are painting right now is pretty much not really happening on a large scale and not reachable to a lot of

目前来说。

people out there at the moment.

我的意思是，我们正在讨论将大量的农业研究和制造甚至太空制造从地球转移到太空。

I mean, we're talking about moving a lot of our agricultural research and manufacture even manufacturing in space from the from this planet.

这会很昂贵。

It's gonna be expensive.

这会很耗时。

It's going to be time consuming.

在这个过程中，肯定会遇到很多所谓的失败。

There are going to be plenty of quote unquote failures along the way.

但我认为，这只是过程的一部分，要让成本和时间限制降下来，还需要很长时间。

But, I mean, I think that's just part of the process, and then it'll take a long time for things to come down in terms of prices and time constraints.

但这件事可能不会在未来发生。

But it won't probably happen in the future.

是的。

Yes.

即使只看农业领域，仅那些突变种子，我们已经几乎随处可见了。

And even for only for agriculture, only for the mutated type of seeds, we're already seen almost everywhere.

你仍然要知道，国家正在组织大量的太空育种任务。

You still have to know that there's the lunch missions being organized by national by by the state.

此外，研究机构需要筛选性状，商业平台需要负责品种认证与示范，地方政府和企业需要将种子与订单及扶贫项目对接，这些事情都在进行中。

And also research institutes would have to screen the traits per venture platforms, would have to handle the variety certification and demonstration, and local governments and companies have to connect seeds with orders and poverty alleviation projects, and these are things that are happening.

在中国，太空育种已经形成了从研究、审批到推广再到产业化的完整链条。

And that space breeding in China, it already forms this research and approval and then promotion and then to the industry kind of chain.

但即便如此，我们仍在探索各种可能性，这意味着仍存在一些小漏洞和小问题，需要通过政策来解决。

But even that even that being said, we are still looking at different types of possibilities, which means different possible of little loopholes, little problems that we need to address with possible with policies.

幸运的是，我们已经制定了促进商业航天高质量和安全发展的行动计划，这是一份针对2025年和2027年的政策文件。

And, luckily, we already have the action plan for promoting the high quality and safe development of commercial space flight, which is a policy paper for 2025 and 2027.

它已经发布，并将一套系统的商业航天行动计划全面融入国家航天战略之中。

It was released, and it has fully integrated a systematic kind of commercial space action plan into the overall national space strategy.

因此，我们非常期待看到越来越多的企业和行业利用商业航天产业，从而为未来社会的发展带来更多可能性和机遇。

So with that, we are very much looking forward to see more and more companies and more and more industries taking advantage of commercial space industries so that a lot of optionality or possibility can happen in the future of the development of our society.