饮食指南已经改变

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

Is Roundtable.

您正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是林永红，今天和史蒂夫以及费费一起参与讨论。

I'm Yong Hong Lin, joined by Steve and Fei Fei.

接下来。

Coming up.

蛋白质、全脂牛奶回归，同时我们看到超加工食品有所退却。

Protein, whole milk returns, and also we see the ultra processed foods take a step back.

最新的美国膳食指南引发了广泛反响，有人欢呼，也有人困惑。

The latest US dietary guidelines have triggered a wave of reactions, some cheering, some confused.

营养科学改变了观点，还是我们只是重新发现了被忽视的内容？

Has nutrition science changed its mind, or are we simply rediscovering what was overlooked?

今天，我们来谈谈营养指南。

Today, let's talk about nutrition guidelines.

多年来，消费者被告诉要害怕脂肪，选择低碳水化合物选项，并相信健康饮食表。

For years, consumers were told to fear fat, choose low cardio options, and trust healthy tables.

现在，官方建议听起来有所不同。

Now the official advice sounds different.

多吃蛋白质，不要对全脂牛奶感到恐慌，并避免食用高度加工的食品。

Eat more protein, don't panic about whole milk, and avoid heavily processed foods.

嗯，这没什么太大变化。

Well, that didn't change much.

这感觉不像节食，而更像是吃真正的食物。

It feels less like dieting and more like real food.

要回答什么是真正的食物，我们先谈谈美国最新营养指南的变动，因为显然‘真正的食物’也是这里的关键词。

To answer what is real food, we first talk about the the latest change in US dietary guidelines, because apparently real food is also a keyword here.

是的，对于真正的食物，有一个简单的解释或定义。

Yeah, there's a simple explanation for or a simple definition for real food.

就是‘它看起来像它本身吗？’

It's 'Does it look like what it is?'

啊，加工得更少。

Ah, less processed.

答案是肯定的，比如胡萝卜看起来像胡萝卜，但纳乔奶酪看起来不像任何东西。

The answer is yes, like a carrot looks like a carrot, but nacho cheese doesn't look like anything.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你能感受到那里的区别。

So you can feel the difference there.

对吧？

Right?

所以胡萝卜属于真实食物类别。

So the carrot falls into the real food category.

对。

Yeah.

所以最新版的《美国居民膳食指南》将‘真实食物’作为其核心标语，贯穿这份十页的文件。

So the latest version of The US dietary guidelines for Americans, they are putting the real food emphasis as their tagline, basically, for this 10 page document.

他们鼓励人们食用真实食物，同时也提倡家庭烹饪。此外，我认为，如果我们听众关注来自不同政府和国家的饮食建议和指南，一些媒体会将这一版指南视为重大转变，因为最新版的膳食指南中，有一个参数与之前版本完全相反。

They are encouraging people to eat real food, also home cooking as well that, but also, I think, if our listeners who follow a lot of these dietary suggestions and guidelines from different governments and different countries, some media outlets are highlighting this version of guidelines as a great flip because simply because in the latest version of that dietary guidelines, they also published a parameter that's basically reversed from the previous version.

他们大幅提升了某些食物的视觉权重，比如你看到图片时会发现，牛排、鸡肉、全脂牛奶的字体比面包或其他全谷物大得多。

They're putting a lot of they're putting if you see the photo, you see that, for example, steak, chicken, whole milk is putting into a larger font when it compares to, like, a bread or other whole grains.

因此，全谷物被放在金字塔的底部尖端，而肉类、黄油、牛油果、水果和蔬菜则位于金字塔顶部，并且占据更大的比例。

So the whole grain stays on the bottom at the tip of that pyramid, while meat, butter, avocado, fruits and vegetables staying on the top of that pyramid but also form the larger part of it.

这和我平时的做法确实很不一样。

It is definitely different from what I do.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这其中有很多不同之处。

I mean, there are a lot of differences.

一个是文件本身的长度。

One is the length of the document itself.

你说现在缩减到了10页。

You said it's down to 10 pages now.

以前有150页。

It was a 150 pages before.

但现在它变成了一份面向消费者的文档，用清晰易懂的标语概括了内容，你提到的标语就是‘吃真实的食物’。

So but now it's it's kind of this consumer facing document, and and it's summed up in this kind of clear and accessible tagline, and and that tagline you mentioned it, it's eat real food.

是的。

Yeah.

之前的区别在于，我们所说的这个金字塔或三角形结构，其实可以追溯到1992年。

The difference is before so so this pyramid or this triangle that we're talking about, so this goes back to 1992.

那时美国农业部给我们提供了一个金字塔，其底部是每天六到十一份谷物。

That's when the US Department of Agriculture, they gave us this pyramid with a base of six to 11 servings of grain.

到了2011年，他们放弃了这种金字塔结构。

Then in 2011, they got away from that pyramid.

他们采用了名为‘我的餐盘’的方案，但到了2026年，金字塔又回来了，只是被倒过来了。

They went with something called MyPlate, but then back into, back to 2026, and the pyramid is back, but they flipped it upside down.

以前，金字塔最底层、也就是宽大的基部，专门用于谷物、面包、米饭、面食和麦片，这是最大的部分，告诉人们每天应该摄入六到十一份这类食物，被视为饮食的基础。

So the before, the the very bottom layer, the wide base of the triangle or the pyramid, if you will, was dedicated to grains and breads and rice and pastas and cereals, and that was the largest section, and it told people that they should eat six to 11 servings of those foods every single day, and it was kind of the foundation of the diet.

在这一层之上，下一层被分为两部分，一部分是水果，另一部分是蔬菜。

And then just above that, on the next layer, was split into two sections, one for fruits and one for vegetables.

第三层也被分为两部分。

The third layer was also split into two.

一部分是乳制品，比如牛奶和奶酪，另一部分是肉类、豆类和其他蛋白质来源。

One was for dairy products like milk and cheese, and then the other was for meat and beans and protein sources.

最后，在金字塔顶端是一个很小的部分，用于脂肪、油和甜食，并附有‘适量食用’的建议。

And then finally, at the top of that pyramid was a tiny section for fats and oils and sweets with the instruction to, quote, use sparingly.

但，是的，现在他们把它倒过来了。

But, yeah, now they've flipped it.

他们彻底把它倒过来了。

They've completely flipped it upside down.

这非常有趣，因为近年来，甚至在圆桌讨论中，我们都谈到了营养相关指导中的不同趋势。

This is very interesting because recent years, and even on roundtable, we talked about different trends in the nutrient related teachings.

我称之为指导，因为有太多不同的理论在建议我们该怎么做。

I'm calling it teachings because there are so many different theories that are advising us to do.

有些建议我们减少谷物摄入。

Some advise us to have less grain.

有些则说谷物是饮食的基础。

Some say grain is the foundation of your diet.

如果你减少谷物，就会降低新陈代谢，这对身体不利。

If you lower the grain, you're lowering your metabolism, which is bad for you.

有些人谈论坚果的好处。

And some talk about the benefit of having nuts.

有些人说你应该以不同的比例摄入坚果。

Some say that you should have them in different types of proportion.

你可以吃一小把坚果，但不能吃太多。

You can have a handful of nuts, but not too much.

此外，还曾有过一段低脂时期，认为人们不应摄入过多脂肪，或应确保饮食中脂肪的占比不要过高。

And also, there has been a low fat period saying that one should not intake, take in too much fat, or you should make sure that the percentage of fat in your diet is not too much.

是的。

Yeah.

其中一个例子就是。

One one example of that yeah.

他们说，这个低脂时代现在已经结束了。

They say this low fat era is kind of over now.

观念也变了。

One changed too.

对。

Yeah.

一个例子就是全脂牛奶。

And one example is whole milk.

是的。

Yeah.

多年来，人们被不同的人建议

For years, people were advised by different people

是的。

Mhmm.

要避免全脂牛奶，转而选择低脂甚至零脂的奶制品。

To avoid whole milk and then switched to low and even even zero people.

人们被不同的人建议。

People were advised by different people.

这是真的。

That is true.

但全脂牛奶，现在又回来了。

But whole milk, yeah, it's back now.

全脂酸奶也回来了。

Full fat yogurt is back.

奶酪，谢天谢地，也回来了。

Cheese, thankfully, is back.

这是我列表中最喜欢的。

That's my favorite on the list.

这正在摆脱我们几十年来只喝脱脂奶的建议。

And this is moving away from the kind of skim milk only advice that we got for for decades.

我们长期接受这样的建议。

We got that for a very long time.

此外，首次将黄油和牛脂等脂肪列为可接受的烹饪选择，前提是它们取代加工食品中的工业种子油。

Also, for the first time, fats like butter and beef tallow, those are listed as acceptable cooking options provided that they replace industrial seed oils found in processed foods.

那糖呢？

How about sugar?

糖还是不好的吗？

Is sugar still bad?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

根据这一指南，未改变的部分包括：一是强调新鲜蔬菜和水果，二是对糖的严格限制——最新指南规定每餐添加糖的摄入量必须严格控制在10克以下。

So according to that guideline, what's not changed is one part is the focus is on fresh vegetables and fruits, and the another one is on the hard line on sugar that in the latest guidelines, added sugar are strictly limited to under 10 grams per meal.

指南还指出，任何量的添加糖或非营养性甜味剂都不被推荐，也不被视为健康饮食的一部分。

And it also notes no amount of added sugar or non nutritive sweeteners is recommended or considered part of a healthy diet.

此外，这一标准也开始为儿童设定更高的要求。

And it's also start to lower to to lift the bar for children as well.

指南建议儿童在10岁之前避免摄入添加糖。

It calls for children to avoid added sugars until the age of 10.

以前的年龄标准是两岁。

Previously, it was at the age of two.

是的。

Yes.

作为一位母亲，我以前会给孩子吃糖和糖果，因为他已经过了两岁。

As a mom, I was giving my kid well, allowing him to have sugar and candy because he passed the age of two.

现在我得重新把禁令拿回来了。

Now I have to, you know, bring back the ban.

是的。

Yep.

但我认为要再坚持

But I think For

八年。

eight more years.

哇。

Wow.

对孩子们来说可不是好消息。

Not good news for kids.

对。

Yeah.

但根据当前指南的预览版本，如果真的想吃糖、有甜食瘾，他们仍建议从天然食物中获取糖分。

But according to the preview of the current version of the guidelines, they still recommend if you really want sugar, you you've got a sweet tooth, you can get your sugar from natural food.

水果。

Fruit.

根据这些指南，即使是干果也比甜味剂更好。

Or even dried fruit is better than sweeteners according to that guidelines.

首先，这种变化如此剧烈，而且在营养指南中发生如此重大的调整。

One, the change is as drastic as this and also as major as happening in a nutrient guideline.

我们经常讨论这个问题，无论是在中国还是在世界各地，因为营养学家们彼此交流，学习其他国家的指南，并试图找出哪些内容可以启发我们改进自己的指南。

We often talk about it, no matter if it's happening here in China or around the world, because nutritionists talk to each other, they learn what the other country's guidelines are about and try to find out if there's something that can inspire us to make possible improvements to our guidelines.

而今年，也就是去年，2025年，中国也特别关注帮助人们控制体重，因为我们意识到体重与慢性疾病之间的关联。

And this year well, last year, 2025, was a year that China has also put a lot of focus on making sure that people are managing their weight because we realize the correlation between weight and chronic diseases.

中国也有自己的食物指南。

There are food guidelines here in China too.

对吧？

Right?

我们稍后会再聊这个。

We'll talk about that a bit later.

但我们讨论美国的指南，并不是因为我们认为它适合我们并应该照搬，而是因为我们也想了解外面发生了什么，以及能从中学到什么。

But the reason we're talking about The US one is not because we believe that is the one for us and we should follow that, but because we kinda also wanna know what is happening out there and also what we can learn from that.

那么，是什么引发了这一重大变化？

So what triggered this major change?

我认为，美国的健康问题是这一变化的主要原因之一，甚至可能是最主要的原因，因为公共卫生指南是对肥胖、糖尿病和心脏病流行的一种回应。因此，正如我们刚才提到的，关注点已经从精制碳水化合物和添加糖转移开来，因为这些是导致过量摄入的关键因素——首先，你购买了太多这类产品，吃得太多，从而引发了这些健康问题。

Well, I think the health issues in The United States are one of the major reasons, if not the major reasons that this was, this change was deemed, necessary, because the public health guidelines, those are responding to an epidemic of obesity and diabetes and heart disease, so this focus has moved away from refined carbs and added sugars as we just talked about because those are those are key drivers of overconsumption, number one, so you're buying too much of this stuff, you're eating too much of this stuff, and it's leading to those health complications.

他们正转向关注蛋白质的充足性。

They're moving away from that towards protein adequacy.

‘充足性’这个词很重要，因为它意味着不要过量摄入蛋白质，而这一点在如今的美国恰恰是个问题。

Adequacy is an important word there because it means, you know, don't overdo it with the protein, which is kind of a thing in America now.

但同时，你也应该做出更健康的脂肪选择，多吃全食物，这也不是对极端饮食的推崇，而是旨在稳定血糖、增强餐后饱腹感，也就是说，即使在短时间内，你也不会觉得还想再吃更多，最终目标，我认为，是减少慢性疾病。

But you're also meant to make healthier fat choices, eat whole foods, and it it's also not an endorsement for extreme diets, but the goal is to stabilize blood sugar, improve satisfaction after a meal, meaning you don't feel like you need to eat more even within a short amount of time, and ultimately the goal, I think, is to reduce chronic disease.

在美国和加拿大的食品环境中。

In a food environment in The United States and Canada.

我们也可以认为加拿大同样存在这个问题。

We can say Canada is guilty of this as well.

一个被超加工食品完全主导的食品环境。

A food environment that's dominated, completely dominated by ultra processed products.

在把焦点转回中国之前，我仍然对一件事有点困惑。

Before taking the focus back to China, I'm still a little bit confused about only one thing.

就是从150页的文件缩减到10页。

That is from processed 150 pages to 10 pages.

希望更多人愿意阅读这10页的指南，并为自己寻找更好的饮食方式，但这仍不能确定。

Hopefully, more people would want to read the 10 page guideline and try to find a better way to diet for themselves, but that's still not a sure thing.

这仍然不是我们可以依赖的事情。

That's still not something that we can count on.

那么，这样一个截然改变的指南究竟如何能起到作用呢？

So how can a guideline change this drastically really help?

我认为，首先，对于第一个问题——我们为什么需要这样的指南？

Well, I think, first of all, for example, for the first question as to why do we need such guidelines?

我认为这些指南并不是对公众具有法律约束力的责任，你不需要每天严格遵守。

I think these guidelines is not sort of a legally binding responsibilities for the general public that you have Yeah.

每天遵循。

To follow every day

好的，继续。

okay, keep going.

对。

Yeah.

但这为学校午餐和膳食计划提供了一个框架。

But that sort of gave a framework for school lunches, for school meal programs.

此外，许多美国人如今在寻求医生建议时，也会把这些建议当作他们依赖的准则。

And also one nutritionist that a lot of, I think, Americans all seek these days when they are seeking doctor advice, these guidelines will also be their rule book to rely on.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这不仅仅适用于学校。

And it's not just for for schools.

据我了解，学校午餐和早餐项目必须依法与这些指南保持一致，这一点非常重要。

From what I understand, school lunch and breakfast programs, they are legally required to align with the guidelines, and and that is really an important thing.

所以你才说，人们并没有法律义务去遵循。

And that's why you said, like, people aren't legally required to follow.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

个人不需要遵守，但学校餐饮项目必须遵守，这意味着每天有超过三千万名美国儿童享用的餐食都依据这些新指南和新标准，这对国家健康产业的未来也至关重要。

Individuals are not, but school programs are, and that means that every day over 30,000,000 American kids are served meals that are based on these new guidelines, these new standards, and this is also an important thing for the future of the health industry in the country.

美国儿童面临许多健康问题，做出这一改变被认为是绝对必要的。

There are a lot of health problems with children in The United States, and making this change is deemed absolutely necessary.

有一项研究完成，这是食品和药物管理局专员马蒂·马卡里的一段引述。

There was a study that was done, and this is a quote from Marty Makary, who is the commissioner of food and drugs.

目前有百分之四十的儿童患有慢性健康问题。

Forty percent of children currently have a chronic health condition.

他还在这段故事中提到，2021年发表的一项研究发现，在1999年至2018年期间，大多数美国儿童和青少年的热量摄入来自超加工食品，比例从61%上升至67%。

He also mentioned in the in the story, there was a 2021 study that was published that found a majority of US children and teenagers caloric intake came from ultra processed foods between 1999 and and 2018, increasing from sixty one to sixty seven percent in that period.

想想看吧。

So think about that.

目前有百分之四十的儿童患有慢性健康问题，而美国儿童或青少年高达百分之六十七的热量摄入来自超加工食品。

Forty percent of kids currently have a chronic health condition, and up to sixty seven percent of the caloric intake of an American child or teenager comes from ultra processed foods.

同样，这是从1999年到2018年期间的数据，

Again, that's from 1999 to 2018,

但是

but

这是一个相当长的时期。

that's a significant window.

是的。

Yes.

超加工食品确实是我们在指南出台前后都努力避免的东西。

And ultra processed food is definitely something that we're trying to avoid, not only after the guideline, but also before.

我们已经讨论过许多不同类型的营养建议，主张避免超加工食品，但在社交媒体和短视频平台上，

We've talked about many different types of nutrition advising to avoid ultra processed food yet on social media platforms, on short video platforms.

我看到过一些视频，展示家长为孩子准备学校餐食。

I've seen videos of entitled preparing for my school kid.

还有我的午餐袋。

And I lunch bags.

是的。

Yeah.

午餐袋里，人们放糖、糖果、饼干，再加一点水果，这样的学校午餐看起来冷冰冰的，不好吃，而且加工过度。

And the lunch bags, people put sugar, candy, crackers, a little bit of fruit in the school lunch bag, which looks cold and not delicious and a little too much processed.

希望这种情况能改变。

Hope that can change.

对。

Yeah.

还有糖的摄入量。

And also the amount of sugar intake.

不仅是孩子，如今成年人也是如此，尤其是蛋白棒之类的食物。

Not only children, but also adults are taking in these days, especially when it comes to protein bars or No.

是的。

Yeah.

蛋白粉。

Protein shakes.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你在互联网上搜索，就搜一下‘美国人对蛋白质的痴迷’，看看会出现多少篇文章。

If you if you do an Internet search, just just search this, America's obsession with protein, and look at the number of articles that pop up.

如今，蛋白质无处不在，它被用作一种营销手段。

It's in everything these days, and it's used as a marketing tool.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

人们希望摄入更多蛋白质，但他们并不知道那些蛋白棒、薯片、蛋白粉或其他他们想吃的产品中添加了多少糖。

People want to intake more protein, but they are not aware of the amount of sugar added to those protein bars or chips or, I don't know, shakes or whatever products that they are trying to to to to to eat.

那在中国的情况如何？

How about the situation here in China?

去年，我们开展了一项全国性活动，鼓励人们关注自身健康，从控制体重开始，前往不同诊所和营养师那里咨询，甚至有时需要制定专属饮食计划。

Last year, we've seen a campaign, a national campaign of asking people to take care of themselves, starting from managing their weight to going to different clinics and different nutrients nutritionists to ask for maybe sometimes even a diet for them.

但总体而言，我们国家也有一套针对民众的指导方针。

But in general, we also have a guideline for our people people here in the country.

是的。

Yeah.

我们有一个称为‘中国食物指南塔’的体系。

We have what we call Chinese food guide pagoda.

它不是三角形的形状，而是宝塔形的。

It's not in the shape of a triangle, but in the shape of a pagoda.

在宝塔的底层，也就是最宽的部分，是谷物和块茎类食物，即碳水化合物。

And on the base, which is the wide base of that pagoda, is cereals and tubers, carbohydrates.

其上依次是蔬菜、水果，以及肉类、鱼类、禽类、蛋类和乳制品。

And then it followed by vegetables, fruit, and also meat, fish, poultry, meat, and eggs, and also dairy as well.

对于中国的食物宝塔，其核心理念是均衡与多样，也就是说，即使是作为基础的碳水化合物，我们也鼓励人们不仅食用全麦，还要摄入土豆、豆类等，并尽可能每天食用多种不同的食物。

So for China's food pagoda, the philosophy is really balanced diversity, meaning that even for the carbohydrate base, we are we they they're encouraging people to not only consume whole wheat, but also potatoes and beans and just eat as many different varieties as possible on a daily basis.

在蔬菜方面，他们也鼓励人们在每餐中都包含蔬菜，并确保每天摄入不少于300克的新鲜蔬菜，其中深色蔬菜至少占总量的一半，也就是说，

And also when it comes to vegetables, they also encourage people to include vegetables in every meal and ensure a daily intake of no less than 300 grams of fresh vegetables with dark colored vegetables making at least half of the total, meaning,

你知道的，绿色的、紫色的，或者红色的蔬菜。

you know, greens or purple ones or, you know, red ones.

基本上是那些有颜色的蔬菜，而不仅仅是卷心菜。

Basically, vegetables with colors, not just cabbages.

我并没有做足够的研究来断言中国民众的现状。

I didn't do enough research to claim the situation for people here in China.

但根据我的朋友圈和我接触的人来看，我觉得我们如今在糖分摄入方面并没有像之前提到的那样存在严重问题。

But based on my friend circle and the people I talk to, I think we don't have a huge problem when it comes to sugar that we mentioned earlier in these days.

我觉得我们在喝奶昔或奶茶时，至少会尽量选择低糖的。

I think we try to at least try when we're having milkshake or milk tea.

我们会要求少加糖，比如奶茶里只加一半、30%的糖。

We try to have lower sugar, like half per half the sugar or 50%, 30% the sugar added in a milk tea.

但我们确实也经常谈到，我们摄入的盐分太多了。

But we do also talk about the fact that we take in too much salt.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为不同国家或不同地区的人们面临的健康问题各不相同。

So I think definitely different countries or people from different regions would have different sort of problems.

在中国，国家正在努力应对的一个健康问题是所谓的‘三高’。

And one health issue here in China that the country is trying to target would be the so called three highs.

是的。

Yes.

第一个是盐。

First one is salt.

我们是全球食盐摄入量最高的国家之一，超过了世卫组织建议水平的两倍。

We are one of the highest salt intake countries in the world that doubled the WHO recommendation level.

其中之一。

One of it.

翻了一倍。

Doubled it.

我们喜欢吃腌制蔬菜、咸鱼和咸肉，而且在酱油里也加很多盐，而酱油本身也含有大量钠。

We love preserved vegetables, salted fish and meat, and also we put a lot of salt in soy sauce, which also intake has a lot of salt in it as well.

因此，这是我国高血压病例的主要诱因。

So that's the primary driver for a lot of the high blood pressure cases that we see in this country.

此外，我们还想限制用油量，因为当我想到中国传统炒菜时，现在越来越多地变成油炸或用油量很大，尤其是在外就餐时。

And also, we also have a you know, want to put a cap on the use of oil because when I think about the traditional stir fry in Chinese cuisines, now it's increasingly becoming deep fry or heavy oil in mordant, especially if you're eating out in restaurants.

所以这很美味。

So that Yum.

确实很好吃。

Is also it is yummy.

但这也会导致高血压和心脏病的发生。

And but that's also contributing to the high blood pressure and also heart diseases.

因此，膳食宝塔建议每日烹饪用油控制在25到30克之间。

So the Pagoda is limiting cooking oil to 25 to 30 grams per day.

这个量其实也不多。

So it's not very much as well.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我确实提到过，人们现在正在关注他们的糖摄入量。

And I did say that sugar people are looking at or paying attention to their sugar intake.

但关于中餐，你不仅可以从奶茶中摄入糖，还可以从其他地方获得糖分

But the thing about Chinese cuisine is that not only can you get the sugar from your milk tea, you can also get it

从各种菜肴中。

from Yeah.

不同的菜里。

Different dish.

而且这也很明显。

And that is Yeah.

很难留意到

Hard to look

糖不仅仅指糖果或巧克力。

Sugar doesn't just mean candy or chocolate.

糖存在于许多不同的食物中，有时很难识别，因此阅读标签对我们来说变得越来越重要。

It's in a lot of different things, and sometimes it's hard to identify, and that's why reading labels is more important becoming more more important for us.

是的。

Yeah.

回到饮食指南上来。

Back to the to the food guidelines.

关于美国饮食指南的一个批评是，美国是一个多元文化的社会。

The one of the criticisms about, the American one America is a diverse culture.

对吧？

Right?

这是一个多元化的社会，其中一个批评是，不可能有一个放之四海而皆准的计划，因为这些指南没有考虑到文化饮食，也没有考虑到个人健康状况，甚至没有考虑到获取新鲜食物的途径。

It's a diverse society, and that's one of the criticisms is that it it can't be a one size fits all plan because it doesn't account for the guidelines don't account for cultural diets or even individual health conditions or even access to fresh foods.

对吧？

Right?

并不是每个社区都能获得相同的新鲜水果、蔬菜和肉类。

Not every community has access to the to the same fresh fruit, fruits and vegetables and meats.

所以，是的，它并不完美，我认为也不可能设计出一个完美的指南，但这也是对它的批评之一。

So, yeah, it's not it's not a perfect, and I don't think it's possible to design a perfect guideline, but there are that is one of the criticisms about it.

我们可以做的一件事，正在尝试的是，中国正在为生活在不同地区的人们设计不同的饮食或营养计划。

And one thing we can do, try to do, and China is trying out, is to design different diets or different types of nutrient plans for people living in different parts of the country.

如果你住在南方，他们会设计一种包含当地容易获取的水果的饮食。

If you're living in the southern part, they will design the kind of diet that contain the kind of fruit that are easy to find for you.

南方、西部和东部地区会有不同的饮食类型。

And the southern part, the West part, and East part would have different types of diet.

这是一点。

That's one thing.

但另一点是，我同意史蒂夫的说法，这不是一种一刀切的解决方案。

But another thing is I think I agree with Steve when he says it's not a one type fits all kind of solution.

之前在圆桌讨论中，我们谈到了进食顺序，意思是你会吃相同类型、相同数量的食物，但以不同的顺序食用，这会影响你的消化系统反应。

Previously on roundtable, we talked about food sequencing, meaning that you'll eat the same type of food, same quantity, but you eat them in different orders, and that would change how your digesting system would react.

但那时我们也谈到，这只展示了你的消化系统如何反应，而针对不同的健康问题或不同的目标，这个顺序也会改变。

But at that time, we also talked about the fact that it only shows how your digestive system would react, but with different problems you're trying to tackle, with different goal you're trying to achieve, that order will change.

对于想增重的孩子，你应该先摄入快速碳水化合物。

For kids who wanna gain some weight, you want to have the quick carbon first.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

说到孩子，这是我主要的批评之一。

Speaking of kids, this is one of the major kind of criticisms I have.

我的意思是，你知道，你说学校必须遵循这些指南。

I mean, you know, you talk about the fact that schools have to follow these guidelines.

但学校里的营养师或负责学校项目的人员会告诉你，他们需要更多的资源和支持。

Well, schools, you know, a school nutritionist or a person in in charge of the school program would tell you that they would need a lot more resources and support.

运营一个健康的厨房并不便宜。

It's not cheap to run a healthy kitchen.

这发生在学校里。

That's in the school.

但我关注的问题是广告，我们从小就被灌输的那些东西。

But the problem I have is with the advertising, the things that we are exposed to from a very young age.

几天前我看了场美国的足球比赛，无意中注意到每一条与食物相关的电视广告都是油炸或超加工食品。

I was watching a football game from The United States a few days ago, and I happened to notice every single television commercial related to food was for something deep fried or ultra processed.

所有人。

Everyone.

嗯。

Mhmm.

显然，你不可能为一根胡萝卜做电视广告。

Now, obviously, you can't really have a TV commercial for a carrot.

没人会在意。

Nobody's gonna care.

没人想要它。

Nobody wants it.

对吧？

Right?

从公司的角度来看，这并不是一笔明智的投资。

It's not gonna be money well spent from the company's point of view.

但话说回来，这80%以上主要来自美国市场。

But that being said, over 80% this is from United States Focus.

在美国，每年近140亿美元的食品营销支出中，超过80%都用于推广糖果、含糖饮料、零食和快餐。

Over 80% of the nearly $14,000,000,000 spent annually on food marketing in America is dedicated to promoting candy, sugary drinks, snacks, and fast foods.

所以，如果你想要出台一项政府指南，建议多摄入蛋白质、健康脂肪，减少这些食物的摄入。

So for the if you wanna come out with a government guideline that says more proteins, more healthy fats, less of this.

但与此同时，你又允许广告行业去向孩子们传递这样的信息：这些广告大多针对儿童，下次去超市时，去缠着你妈妈、爸爸或其他人买这种含糖麦片。

But then you're allowing your advertising industry Mhmm.

这些广告大多针对儿童，下次去超市时，去缠着你妈妈、爸爸或其他人买这种含糖麦片。

To say to children, by the way, these are targeted towards children, a lot of these advertisements, go bug your mom or dad or whoever the next time you go to the market for this sugary cereal.

在我看来，这简直是自相矛盾。

That's talking out of both sides of your mouth in my opinion.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以这说不通。

So it doesn't add up.

每當這個話題出現時，我都會感到煩躁，因為我總會想起廣告業，以及超加工食品如何通過廣告強行塞給我們。

Whenever this topic comes up, I kind of get annoyed because I'm always reminded of the advertising industry and how ultra processed foods are just shoved down our throats through advertisements.

這正是為什麼我們需要更多地討論——當然，我們可以談談廣告行業的監管，但也可以更多探討關於營養的不同理論，通過了解我們吃的食物，多學一點，從而為自己設計更好的飲食。

And that is why we need to talk more well, definitely, we can talk about regulations in the advertisement industry as well, but we can also talk more about different kind of theories when it comes to nutrient and how to better manage our own individual health conditions by looking at what we eat and by learning a bit more so that we can design a better diet for ourselves.

這也標誌著今天圓桌討論的結束。

And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.

非常感謝你們一直陪伴我們。

Thank you so much for staying with us.

保持好奇，保持見聞，繼續這場對話。

Stay curious, stay informed, and keep the conversation going.

我是牛紅林，和史蒂夫、菲菲一起。

I'm Niu Hong Lin with Steve and Fei Fei.

再见。

Bye bye.