抖音到小红书

讨论让世界转动。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这里是《圆桌》。您正在收听《圆桌》，我是Steve Hatherley，今天与Lai Ming和Yushan一起。接下来，TikTok难民正把他们的“为你推荐”页面换成小红书的精选内容，希望找到新的数字家园。小红书现有用户的欢迎可谓热情又可爱，新友谊的机会似乎真实存在。

Is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable. I'm Steve Hatherley together today with Lai Ming and Yushan. Coming up, TikTok refugees are trading in their for you pages for Xiaohongshu's curated feeds hoping to find a new digital home. The welcome from Xiaohongshu's current users has been nothing short of warm and lovely and it seems the opportunity for new friendships is real.

之后，虽然许多祖父母珍惜与孙辈相处的机会，但期待他们无偿提供育儿帮助，而不对其时间、精力和专业知识给予某种形式的金钱认可，这公平吗？今天提出这个问题。我们的播客听众——也就是你——可以在Apple播客上找到“圆桌中国”。别忘了，我们也爱听到你的声音。邮件很棒，但我们更想听到你的声音。

After that, while many grandparents cherish the opportunity to spend time with their grandchildren, is it fair to expect them to provide childcare without some form of financial recognition for their time, effort, and expertise? That question is posed today. Our podcast listeners, that's you, can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. And please don't forget, we love hearing from you as well. An email is wonderful, but you know we want to hear your voice.

把语音片段或邮件发给我们，谈谈你对节目中任何议题的看法。方法如下：roundtable podcast at qq.com。再说一遍，roundtable podcast at qq.com。现在，让我们深入社交媒体与新友谊的世界。

Send those voice clips or your emails our way with your, thoughts on any of the issues that we discuss on the show. Here's how you do that. Roundtable podcast at qq.com. One more time, roundtable podcast at qq.com. Now, let's dive into the world of social media and new friendships.

一波感到漂泊的美国社交媒体用户，因TikTok可能被禁，正在小红书——这款热门的中国生活方式平台，也被称为“小红书”或“Red Note”——找到温馨的避风港。这场迁移规模之大，据称仅两天就有70万新用户涌入。这些数字游牧者以探险者的好奇与兴奋拥抱新旅程，意外发现文化宝藏，并与中国现有用户建立惊人联系。这是技术意外连接大陆、促成意外友谊的暖心故事。当然，这一切都与美国可能封禁TikTok有关。

A wave of American social media users feeling a bit adrift with the potential TikTok ban are finding a welcoming haven in Xiaohongshu, the popular Chinese lifestyle platform also known as Little Red Book or Red Note. So large is the migration in fact that a reported 700,000 new users joined the app in just two days. These digital nomads are embracing this new adventure with the curiosity and excitement of explorers, stumbling upon unexpected cultural treasures and forging surprising connections with existing users here in China. It's a heartwarming tale of how technology can unexpectedly bridge continents and foster unexpected friendships. And this, of course, is all related to the potential ban of TikTok in The United States.

那么，Yushan，请你给我们介绍一下最新情况。

So, Yushan, get us up to speed if you could.

好的。根据其在线音频直播，1月10日，美国最高法院就TikTok在美国的未来进行了两小时的讨论。所以此刻，TikTok基本在等待最高法院的裁决，该裁决将决定它是否会在美国被禁。于是，与此同时，其用户正迁移到另一款中国社交媒体平台，就像你说的，Steve，叫Little Red Book或Red Note，中文里我们年轻人就叫它“小红书”。我们之前在《圆桌》也多次聊过这片红色。

Yeah. So according to its own online audio livestream, the US Supreme Court held a two hour discussion on January 10 regarding the future of TikTok in The US. So at this moment, TikTok is basically waiting for a supreme supreme court decision that could determine whether it will be banned in The US or not. So in the meantime, its users are now migrating to another Chinese social media platform, like you said, Steve, called Little Red Book or Red Note, which literally, in Chinese, we call it in here among the Chinese young people. So we talk about the red on Roundtable for multiple times.

多年了。

For years.

对，多年了。这家公司成立于2013年，是中国最大的社交媒体平台之一，根据研究公司陈国的数据，拥有3000万用户。三

Yeah. For years. And this company is founded in 2013, and it's one of China's biggest social media platforms with 30,000,000 users according to research firm Chen Guo. And Three

是30还是300,000,300？

thirty or 300,000,300.

1亿。是的，这远超我的想象。

100,000,000. Yeah. That's far more than I thought.

当然，是美国TikTok用户数量的两倍。

Of course. Twice the amount of users on TikTok in The US.

哦，对。截至1月15日，RedNote已成为苹果美国应用商店下载量第一的App。这些美国用户自称“TikTok难民”，并与中国本土用户产生了许多有趣且持久的互动。

Oh, yeah. And as of January 15, RedNote was the number one most downloaded app in Apple's US App Store. So these American users call themselves TikTok refugee and have had many interesting and enduring interactions with the app's native users here in China.

嗯，没错。我们今天聊的这件事确实出人意料，但新闻里到处都是。小红书，也叫RedNote或Xiaohongshu，已经占据了中国市场，不过在国际上的关注度一直不高，直到现在。据我在办公室聊天所知，这本来也不是这款App的初衷。

Yeah. Mhmm. This is really an unexpected story that we're talking about here today, but it's kind of all over the news. And the app, Little Red Book or Red Note or Xiaohongshu, it had cornered the Chinese market, but hadn't gained a lot of attention internationally speaking until now. But as far as I know from chats I had in the office, it wasn't that wasn't really the intention of the app anyway.

但现在我们看到一大批美国新朋友涌进来。

But now we're seeing this flood of American new American friends who are coming.

对，这是一个生活方式应用或平台，人们可以看短视频、照片、图文帖子，还有购物功能。我好像注册过小红书，但没时间用。不过我太太用得很多，她会查博士论文的指导和小技巧。

Yeah. It's a lifestyle application or platform where people go and see short videos, photos, text posts, and shopping functionalities. I don't necessarily own I think I have a Xiaohongshu account, but I don't have time for for it. But I do my wife uses it a lot. She gets guidance and tips on her doctoral dissertation.

她写论文太累时，也会刷点轻松内容放松。所以这是一个非常综合的平台，应有尽有。算法对中国用户似乎很有效，但面对大量外国用户涌入，能否同样吸引他们，还有待观察。

She also gets entertaining fees to help her relax when she's too tired and fatigued writing her her paper. So it's a very comprehensive platform. You get all everything you want. The algorithm appears to be working quite well for the Chinese users, but it remains to be seen with the with the influx of foreign users. It'll also appeal to the foreign users as well.

我读到它的界面和TikTok很像。你就在用这个App，对吧？玉山，你觉得呢？用起来挺顺手吧？

Well, is it I've read that it's quite similar to TikTok in its user interface. You are on the app. Correct? Yushan, would would you agree with that? It's pretty user friendly.

是的，绝对。因为小红书不仅是年轻人的社交媒体或刷视频工具，更像一个可以聊天、互相评论的平台。对我来说，它更像查不同光线下口红试色、穿搭风格，以及日常小技巧的信息来源。

Yes. Definitely. Because Xiaohongshu not it's not only a social media app or rather a video scrolling tool for the young people nowadays, but also like a just a platform to chat and to comment on each other's posts. And for me, it's more about a place to get information on the comparisons of lipstick colors under different lights and also the the dressing styles and yeah. Just some day to day tips.

而且小红书对不同国家用户发帖几乎没有限制或界限。嗯，所以你能看到来自这个国家或那个地区的用户，大家就在一条帖子下一起聊天，这就是小红书的氛围，非常相似。

And the thing with Xiaohongshu is that it doesn't really have like any limitations or boundaries for different countries of users to post stuff. Mhmm. So you can see literally see users from this country or this region of that country, like everybody just chatting together over one post. So that's the vibe of Xiaohongshu. And it's very similar.

如今这个面板被适配得和TikTok非常相似。而且，我觉得也有一些网友在对比中美两国的不同应用。所以在他们看来，小红书更接近Instagram。嗯。如果是这样的话，是的，这确实是一款非常用户友好的应用。

The panel nowadays is adapted to in a way that's very similar to TikTok. And also, I think there are some netizens comparing different apps between The US and and China as well. So Xiaohongshu in their perspective is closer to Instagram Mhmm. As well in that case. So, yeah, it's it's a really user friendly app.

正因如此，这些新美国用户才能如此舒适地加入并使用这款应用。据路透社报道，仅两天就新增了70万用户。那我们就直入主题吧。到目前为止，两国网友之间有哪些互动呢？

That's what makes it comfortable then for these new American users to join and Mhmm. And use the app so comfortably. 700,000 new users in just two days as reported by Reuters. So let's get to it. What are some of the interactions between netizens from the two countries so far?

有些玩笑。交“猫税”就是其中之一。许多中国用户说，如果你想留下来，就得先交猫税。嗯。

Some jokes. Paying the cat tax is one of the Yeah. Things that's happening. Many Chinese users say if you want to stay, you better pay the cat tax. Mhmm.

嗯。意思是，RedNote上的美国用户发个人帖子时应该附上自家猫咪的照片。中国用户则热情回应，晒出他们自己的毛孩子，掀起一阵萌宠交流的旋风。俗话说互联网上全是猫片，而小红书正是又一个绝佳例子。

Mhmm. Meaning, American users on RedNote, they should share photos of their cats alongside personal posts. And Chinese users enthusiastically respond by showcasing their own furry friends, creating a whirlwind of adorable exchanges. There's a saying that the Internet is filled with cat videos. And and Xiaohongshu is another good example of that.

就在今天早上，我还和其他爱猫的同事聊天，说我们如今不仅撸自家的猫，还在数字世界里撸地球另一端的猫。

I was chatting with other fellow cat loving colleagues just this morning that nowadays, we're not only petting our own cats, but also digitally petting cats from the other side of

世界另一端的猫。是不是很可爱？是啊。中国网友在应用里对新来的美国用户就是这么说的：等等。

the world. Isn't that so cute though? Yeah. That that's what Chinese netizens were saying on the app to the new American users. Hold on.

等等。想待在这app里，就先给我们看看你家猫的照片。然后你才会被接纳。

Hold on. If you want to be in this app, show us a picture of your cat. And then you will then you'll be accepted.

这就是入场费。

That's the entrance fee.

他们称之为“猫税”。我还发现一些我觉得很暖的回应。一位用户说：我只想向你们保证，我们想努力找到与你们沟通的方式，并尊重你们的社区。我们想成为好客人。这是美国用户的原话。

The cat tax as they call it. I found some more responses which I think are quite nice as well. One user said, I just want to reassure you that we want to try to find a way to communicate with you and be respectful to your community. We want to be good guests. That's a quote from an American user.

这是另一位美国用户的话：给其他刚来这里的美国用户捎个口信——我们只想在这里玩得开心，我们只想享受自己，也想对已经在这里的人表示尊重。

Here's another one from an American user. Just a quick message for the other American users coming over here. We just wanna have fun here. We just want to enjoy ourselves, and we want to show respect to the people who are already here.

嗯哼。所以大多数中国用户都热烈欢迎这些新来的人，有些人甚至分享视频教程来帮助这些“TikTok难民”上手。哦，不错，教他们怎么用这些应用。

Mhmm. So most Chinese users have warmly welcomed the newcomers with some even sharing video tutorials to help the new TikTok refugees Oh, nice. Get the apps.

教他们怎么——对，教他们正确使用。

Showing them how yeah. Showing them how to use it properly.

就像咱们同事带Steve熟悉一些应用那样。

Like our coworkers have shown Steve around some of the applications.

是的，完全没错。

Yes. Exactly.

因为有语言障碍。小红书已经有英文界面了吗？

Because of the language barrier. Does Xiaohongshu already have an English interface?

我觉得还没有，不过他们肯定在努力。根据小红书一些员工的采访，公司仍在尝试把它做成双语，方便英语背景的用户使用。嗯哼。我还特别感动，有些所谓的“TikTok难民”在小红书上互相喊话，告诉同伴这里氛围很好、很友好，大家正努力融入。

I don't think they already have one, but well, they definitely are working on it. According to the interview with some of the employees of Xiaohongshu, the company. They're still working on trying to make it bilingual for users that's from an English speaking background. Mhmm. And also, I found it very impress impressive that some so called TikTok refugee, they're trying to tell each other by calling out to the TikTok refugee group on Xiaohongshu that this is a very nice and friendly environment that we're trying to blend in here.

这里不太谈政治，用户也很友善，所以请别把以前在TikTok那种氛围带到小红书来。他们真的在用日常话题融入小红书的中国本土社区，比如“你杯子里喝的是什么？”“今天过得怎么样？”

And this is not very political, and the users are very friendly. So please don't bring that kind of vibe we used to have on TikTok to Xiaohongshu. And they're really trying to engage in to the, say say, the native Chinese communities on Xiaohongshu with just daily stuff. Like, what do you drink in your cup? And how is your day?

“你最喜欢玩什么游戏？”前几天我在小红书上和一位美国用户聊到我们最爱的游戏，结果都是《Boulder Skate 3》，我们就聊剧情怎么发展。我特别开心，如今不仅能在YouTube等国际平台得到这种反馈，就像在身边一样。

What's your favorite game to play? I actually got one comment from one of the American users on Xiaohongshu these days while we were talking about our favorite game, which happened to both to be a boulder skate three. So we were talking about how the story line goes on. Yeah. And I was very happy that nowadays, I I can not only get those kind of feedback from say YouTube or the international platforms, but just like next door.

打开小红书就能拿到各种游戏建议、剧情推进技巧，一切都太酷了。

Just open Xiaohongshu and you can get all kind of, you know, advice on the game and tips on how to go on with the narration and everything. That's just so cool.

还有人发帖说：“嘿，你能帮我看点英语作业吗？作为交换，我可以帮你看看数学作业。”因为时差很大，两边的帖子几乎不会撞车，这也是个有趣的现象。

There are other posts about, hey, can you help me with my English homework a little bit? If you want, I'll help you with your math homework a little bit. There were posts about that. Another interesting side of this is that there isn't much of an overlap in terms of the post because of the huge time difference.

对吧？对。这就是“早C晚A”现象。

Right? Right. That's the morning c evening a phenomenon.

嗯。

Yeah.

在中文里，我们用这个词来形容一种生活方式：一个人可能早上喝咖啡，晚上喝酒。嗯。但在这里，“早C晚A”指的是“早上中国，晚上美国”，因为时差。

Here in Chinese, we say We use it to describe a lifestyle where one person might drink coffee in the morning and alcohol in the evening. Mhmm. But in in this case, morning c, evening a stands for morning China and evening America because of the time difference.

对。这样就很方便，对吧？就像一半英文帖子，一半中文帖子，一半……然后就这样循环下去。

Right. And that makes it quite convenient. Right? Because then it's just like half English pose, half Chinese pose, half and it just goes in a cycle like

是啊。Red Nose应该高兴，因为他们的服务器被充分利用了。嗯。从这种意义上说，没有时差。

that. Yeah. Guess Red Nose should be happy because their servers are being utilized to the maximum. Yeah. There's no time difference in in that sense.

说到英文帖子，有位中国用户写道：为什么我今天刷到的全是英文？我一打开小红书就变成外国人了？我是谁？我在哪儿？

Speaking of the English post, one Chinese user wrote this. Why is my feed full of English today? Did I become a foreigner by opening Xiaohongshu? Who am I? Where am I?

哈哈，把我逗笑了。好多帖子都

Yeah. That made me laugh. So many of these posts are

挺有

just kind

趣又搞笑，确实让人忍不住嘴角上扬。Lai Ming，还有哪些中国用户的反应？

and funny and and definitely put a put a smile on your face. What are some of the other Chinese reactions, Lai Ming?

嗯，小红书没有在中美之间设置地区分区，一些像“突袭挑战”的梗也主要是中文，这是很大的障碍。一位前小红书员工告诉中国媒体《山东速报》，外国用户进入中文社交媒体可能会因讨论风格不同而遭遇文化冲击，甚至影响老用户，而且缺乏翻译也是问题。还有用户说，我……我不知道怎么

Well, Xiaohongshu hasn't introduced regional divisions between China and The US, and some jokes like sudden challenges. It is primarily in Chinese, and it's a very significant obstacle. So a former Xiang Hongshui employee told Shandong Expresso, which is a Chinese media outlet, that foreign users entering Chinese social media might face a cultural shock due to different discussion styles and which could even affect existing users, and the lack of translation is an issue. And other users, some are saying, I I don't know how to how to

会说中文吗？

Speak Chinese?

会的。那么美国的薪资情况怎么样？一些非常有趣的问题。在你们国家看医生方便吗？

Yeah. And how is it what is the salary situation in The US? Some very interesting questions. And and how is it easy to see a doctor in your country?

哇。

Wow.

所以这种层面的交流也在发生。

So that level of exchanges are are taking place as well.

一位用户写道，我们终于一起打破了那堵无形的墙，这才有了这些精彩的交流。有些傻傻的，有些猫咪照片和梗图。我还看到另一篇帖子说，我们不想要你的数据，我们只想要你的猫咪照片和梗图。这就是我们的需求。

One user wrote, finally, we've broken the invisible wall together, which is leading to all of these wonderful exchanges. Some silly, some cat photos and memes. I saw another post said, we don't want your data. We just want your cat pictures and your memes. That's what that's what we want.

即便在中国社会，小红书相对来说也是一个更有礼貌、更文明的社区。我是说，还有一些更残酷的平台，你在注册前就得做好心理准备。但小红书，我不太清楚具体的人口构成，我的理解是用户受教育程度更高，彼此更文明，更愿意围绕共同话题讨论，而不是单纯刷页面。

Even in Chinese society, Red Note or is a comparatively speaking more polite and civilized environment. I mean, there are more brutal platforms that you have to brace yourself when you do sign up from before. But Xiaohongshu, I don't know the precise demographics. My understanding is more better educated people and they they more they're more civilized to each other and they are more likely to discuss their their shared topics than just scrolling through the pages.

这很棒，因为有些社交媒体应用确实带有负面印象和氛围。比如X。我不太用，但听朋友说，那里有时会很残酷，偶尔是个糟糕的地方；而在这里，只是传递爱与了解他人。从物流角度看，这个平台能承载如今涌入的全球流量吗？

Which is wonderful because some social media apps do have that negative connotation, that vibe to them. For example, or X. I wasn't on there a lot, but I've heard from friends who use it that It can be brutal. Can be an awful place from from time to time, whereas here, it's just about spreading the love and and getting to know other people. From a logistics point of view, can the site can the platform handle the global traffic that's coming now?

我的意思是，到目前为止，公司对此的反应就像是一次他们并未完全预料到的随机事件。之前也出现过一波外国用户了解小红书，比如像他这样的系列，外国用户发穿搭建议求助，那并没有掀起多大波澜，但这一次，就像把全部注意力倾泻到这个应用上。所以目前，小红书还没有真正在中国和美国之间引入区域分区。是的。

I mean, so far, the company reacts it to it as if it's a rather random occasion that they're not fully expecting, let's say. There were a previous wave of foreign users getting to know Xiaohongshu that's when series like him. Foreign users trying to post themselves for advice for dressing codes and that's not really generating much of a wave, but this time, it's like adding pouring out this whole attention onto this app. So right now, Xiaohongshu hasn't really introduced regional divisions between China and The US. Yeah.

我们应该。目前还在努力让它双语化。另外，据国内科技媒体36氪报道，内部把这一情况视为孤立事件，对他们来说应对起来相当突然。

We should. Still working on just trying to make it bilingual. And also, according this is according to domestic tech media, or 36 crew, in internally view the situation as just an isolated event and is quite sudden for them to try to deal with

我相信。

I'm sure.

这个场合，你知道吗？公司还没有就和核心团队在这个问题上的分歧达成一致，他们正在争论全球化给应用带来的挑战可能超过了他们对处理流量增长的兴奋。

The the occasion, you know? Like, the company has yet to reach a consensus on this issue with the core team debating that the challenge brought by this globalization over their app may outweigh their excitement of handling the increased traffic.

但小红书的员工表示，他们也在加快推出新功能，以应对这些挑战。

But Xiaohongshu's staff, they've stated that they're accelerating the rollout of new features as well to Right. To address the challenges.

据报道，小红书办公楼里灯火通明，经理和工程师们正在加班，二十四小时轮班。

Lies are on reportedly at the office building of Xiaohongshu. So managers and engineers engineerings are working overtime Twenty

晚上也连轴转。

four hours a evening a.

是的。回到咖啡和酒的例子，也许在我们结束前，我觉得这很重要。小红书未来会不会面临和TikTok类似的情况？

Yeah. Going back to the coffee alcohol example perhaps. Just before we finish, I think this is important to address. Could Xiaohongxu face the same situation potentially that TikTok is facing in the future?

我觉得这要看情况，目前仍然悬而未决，我们此刻无法准确回答，因为CNN也报道了字节跳动的另一款应用Lemon8？这是一个生活方式社区，同样来自字节跳动，目前在苹果美国商店下载量排名第二，仅次于小红书。Lemon8有类似TikTok的视频分享功能，模仿Instagram和Pinterest。它最早于2023年在美国上线，但现在，如果字节跳动处于相当复杂的境地，我们真的不知道Lemon8会不会遭遇和TikTok一样的命运。

I think it kind of depends and it's still hanging in the air that we can't really answer that precisely at this very moment because CNN also reported on, you know, this other app from ByteDance called Lemon8? It's a lifestyle community that's, also from ByteDance and is currently ranked as the second most downloaded app on the Apple's US store just after Xiaohongshu. And Lemonade has a, similar video sharing function just TikTok and is modeled after Instagram and Printerist. It was the first it was first launched in The US just two years ago in 2023, but I don't know. Nowadays, if ByteDance is kind of, you know, in this situation that's quite complex, we don't really know if Lemonade is going to face the same as TikTok.

这是一个正在发展的故事。在美国，政府正随着局势变化而应对。《华盛顿邮报》独家称，美国候任总统唐纳德·特朗普正在考虑签署一项行政令，在上任后暂停执行禁止或出售法律六十到九十天。就在节目开始前，拜登政府也 reportedly 表示可能会让TikTok继续运营，正在考虑此事。

It's a developing story. In The US, the government is dealing with the situation as it changes. A Washington Post exclusive says US president-elect Donald Trump is considering an executive order to suspend enforcement of the ban or sale law for sixty to ninety days once he's in office. And just before the show, Biden's administration is also reportedly saying that it might continue the operation of TikTok. It is considering this.

所以这是一个不断演变的故事。

So it's a evolving story.

确实如此。这也是一个温暖人心的故事。我想用这段话作为结尾。这是一位中国用户在一条现已走红的帖子中对新的美国朋友说的，他自称Abe：‘长久以来，我们真的无法这样连接或交谈，但现在我们终于做到了，这感觉非常特别。’

It is indeed. Well, it's a heartwarming story as well. And I think I'll leave you with this. This is from a Chinese user who identified himself as Abe in a now viral post speaking to new American friends. For so long, we really haven't been able to connect or talk with each other like this, but now we finally can, and it feels so special.

‘这是我们真正了解彼此、也许一起创造美好事物的真实机会。你们不仅受欢迎，我真的、真的希望你们能留下来。’我想我们《圆桌》的所有人都可以一起说，我们也希望你们留下来。是的。

This is such a real chance for us to get to know each other and maybe create something amazing together. You are not just welcome here. I really, really hope you will stay. And I think for all of us here at Roundtable, we can collectively say, we hope you'll stay as well. Right.

您正在收听《圆桌会谈》，接下来请继续收听：您的祖父母可能会帮忙照看孩子，但问题是，他们是否应该获得报酬？请继续收听。

You're listening to Roundtable, and coming up next, your grandparents may help take care of your kids, but the question is, should they be paid? Stick around.

想寻找激情吗？来一场激烈的辩论如何？想从不同视角了解中国的时事？那就收听《圆桌会谈》，在这里东西方相遇，理解是目标。

Looking for passion? How about fiery debate? Wanna hear about current events in China from different perspectives? Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal.

您正在收听《圆桌会谈》。我是何思礼，她是雨珊。现在这是一个火辣的话题：祖父母是否应该被要求——不是被要求——是否应该接受家人提供的报酬？世界各地的祖父母当然常常愿意通过做不同的事情来支持孙辈的成长，比如在父母上班时陪伴他们。

You're listening to Roundtable. I'm Steve He's Laming and she's Yushan. Now this is a spicy meatball. Grandparents, should they be required not required, should they be accepting pay if offered from their family members? Grandparents around the world, of course, are often willing to support the growth of their grandchildren by doing different things such as spending time with them when their parents are at work.

但情况会变化，有时祖父母可能成为主要照顾者。他们应该获得报酬吗？文化或许在回答这个问题时起作用，但世界上有些国家对此有明确答案，那就是“应该”。这是一个有趣的问题

But situations change, and sometimes the grandparents can become the primary caretakers. Should they be paid or should they not? Culture perhaps plays a role in the answer to the question, but there are countries around the world that have a definitive answer to that question, and that answer is yes. It's an interesting issue

是的。

Yes.

这个问题似乎正在被讨论。思礼，哪里法律规定祖父母必须获得报酬？

That seems to be being addressed right now. Lai Ming, where is it that it's law that grandparents need to be paid?

美联社2024年7月报道称，瑞典推出了一项开创性的新法律，允许祖父母在照顾孙辈时获得带薪育儿假，最长可在孩子出生后的第一年内享受三个月。根据该法律，父母可以将部分慷慨的育儿假配额转让给孩子的祖父母。一对父母最多可转让45天，而单亲家长可转让90天，据政府机构社会保险局称。瑞典以其由纳税人资助的社会福利体系而闻名，育儿津贴可发放480天，即大约16个月。所以这是瑞典，一个北欧国家。

Well, The Associate Press reported in July 2024 that Sweden launched a groundbreaking new law which allows grandparents to step in and get paid parental leave while taking care of their grandchildren for up to three months of a child's first year. Under the law, parents can transfer some of their generous parental leave allowance to the child's grandparents. A parent couple can also transfer a maximum of forty five days to others, while a single parent can transfer ninety days according to the Social Insurance Agency, a government agency. And Sweden is known for its taxpayer funded social welfare system where parental benefit is paid out for four hundred and eighty days or about sixteen months per child. So that's Sweden, a North European country.

我们知——知道北欧国家以其社会福利体系著称，他们也有鼓励人们多生孩子的激励措施。所以我认为这两者的结合，造就了我们现在看到的结果，这

And we we know know the North European countries for their social welfare system, and they also have incentives to encourage the people to have more babies. So a combination of the two, I think, creates the result that we are seeing, the

新当然。

new Sure.

我的意思是，瑞典是世界上第一个为父亲而不仅仅是母亲引入带薪育儿假的国家，那是五十年前的事了。

I mean, Sweden was the first country in the world to introduce paid parental leave for fathers, not just mothers, and that was fifty years ago.

这相当具有开创性。

That's quite pioneering.

他们——他们——他们在这方面很有名。玉山，让我们稍微环游一下世界。在美国或其他国家，有没有这样的例子，或者有没有不向祖父母提供支持的例子？

They they're they're well known for this. Let's go around the world just a little bit, Yushan. In The United States or other countries, are there examples of this, or are there examples of not providing support to the grandparents?

嗯，就美国而言，他们并没有一个专门设计用来向提供育儿服务的祖父母提供经济支持的联邦项目。即使在美国，虽然文化上普遍期望祖父母会站出来，以某种方式照顾孙辈并帮助父母，但实际上，正如美联社文章提到的，联邦层面的假期非常有限。美国1993年通过的《家庭与医疗休假法》允许符合条件的美国员工因家庭或医疗原因享有最长12周的无薪、受工作保护的休假，包括照顾新生儿。无薪的。对，无薪的。

Well, in the case of The US, they don't really have a federal program specifically designed to provide financial support to grandparents who provide childcare. Even in The US, even though it's kind of culturally expected for the parent grandparents to step in and actually take care of the grandkid and help the help with their the parents in a way, there are, in fact, limited federal leaves as mentioned in the Associated Press article that the Family and Medical Leave Act that's passed in 1993 in The US allows eligible American workers up to twelve weeks of unpaid job protected leave for family and medical reasons, including caring for a newborn. Unpaid. Yeah. Unpaid.

没错，这就是关键词。然而，这种假期确实是无薪的，而且并不适用于祖父母等其他家庭成员。所以他们到目前为止还没有这样的政策，但期望却存在。正如我们所见，许多中年祖父母自己尚未退休，仍在工作或发展自己的事业，他们有时只能心甘情愿地接受一个事实：他们需要帮助自己的孩子——也就是新生儿的父母——不得不辞职或暂时离开职场，只为回家照顾

Exactly. That's the keyword here. However, this leave is really unpaid and does does not really extend to other family members such as the grandparents. So they don't really have this policy so far, but the expectation is there. As we can tell a lot of, say, middle aged grandparents who themselves are not yet retired and and is still doing participating in the work or having their own career, they sometimes will have to just willingly accept the fact that they need to help their child, in this case, the parents of the newborn, and have to quit their job or leave their career temporarily just so that they can go back home to take care of

孩子。

the kids.

澳大利亚，让我们短暂地去那里看看。他们有一个专门的项目，叫做“额外育儿补贴计划”，旨在帮助符合条件的祖父母支付经批准的育儿费用。确实。嗯。

Australia, let's take a trip there for a brief moment. They have a specific program. It's called the Additional Child Care Subsidy Program, and it's designed to assist eligible grandparents with the cost of approved childcare. Sure. Yeah.

我们可以看到那里的情况。英国也有一个体系，根据2021年的一项政府调查，超过22%的0到14岁儿童在2021年使用了非正式育儿服务。不过，英国的情况——这是来自他们最大的投资平台之一——补贴并不延伸到祖父母，除非他们是孩子的法定监护人，所以定义上更严格一些。而且我觉得那里和养老金挂钩。

We can see that there. The UK, they have a system as well according to a 2021 governmental survey. Over twenty two percent of the children aged zero to 14, they used informal childcare of twenty twenty one. The situation in The UK though, and this is from one of their largest investment platforms, is that it doesn't extend to grandparents unless they are the child's legal guardian, so it's a little bit more strict in its definition. And then I think there, it's it's connected to their pensions.

是的，就是祖父母在孩子父母不在时顶替父母角色。

Yeah. It's grandparents stepping into the shoes of the parents when they are not around.

那中国呢？

So how about China then?

嗯，有一项减税政策，也就是税收豁免政策，针对0到3岁儿童的法定监护人。我儿子不到三岁时我就享受过这项优惠。法定监护人可以是孩子的父母、继父母或祖父母，以及其他照顾者，一方父母可减税2000元，双方各1000元。所以如果你年收入1万元，其中2000元不用缴税。政策就是这样运作的。

Well, there's a tax reducing policy, tax exemption policy for the legal garden of a child aging from zero to three years old. I I I use that benefit when my son was below the the age of three. The legal guardian can be the child's parents, step parents, or grandparents, and other caretaker of the child with a tax reduction of 2,000 yuan for one side of the parent or 1,000 on both sides. So if you make 10,000 yuan a year, 2,000 of them is not taxable. That's the how the policy works.

从文化角度来说，我觉得在西方——当然这是为了我们今天的讨论而做的概括——不同家庭会有差异。但总体而言，祖父母帮忙照看孙辈几乎被视为理所当然，不一定是全天候，而是偶尔过来搭把手，具体要看父母的日程安排。我觉得这算是一种默认的期待。在中国文化里，这样说公平吗？

Culturally speaking, I think in the West, and this is this is a generalization for the sake of our conversation, it would differ from family to family. But generally speaking, I think it's almost expected that your grandparents should help out with the care of the grandkids, not necessarily on a full time basis, but just, you know, come over from time to time, and it would depend on the parents' schedule. But I think it's kind of expected. Would you say that's fair in Chinese culture too?

从我的经历来看，绝对是的。当年我爷爷奶奶专门从乌鲁木齐——就是新疆自治区——千里迢迢飞到北京，1996年落地就是为了照顾我。在很多中国家庭里，尤其是比较传统的家庭，如果祖父母已经退休、身体还硬朗，有能力照看孙辈，他们大多会心甘情愿加入，早上送孩子上学、下午接回家、父母上班时给孩子做饭，这些都是常态。

I would say from my experience of my grandparents flying all the way from Urumqi, which is the Xinjiang Autonomous Region just to land in Beijing back in 1996 to try to take care of me. Yes. Totally. That's the same expectation shared in many Chinese families as well, especially in the more traditional families where the grandparents happen to have already retired and is in good health status to be capable and able to take care of the grandkids, then, yeah, most will, generally speaking, willingly join in that efforts to just try to maybe see their grandkids off to school and get them back home, cook for them while the parents are out working.

各家情况真的差别很大。

It really varies from family to family.

嗯。那你觉得，祖父母有没有权利因为他们的付出而获得金钱报酬？

Mhmm. Should should the grandparents have the right to receive monetary compensation for their efforts, in your opinion?

我不认为这是种“权利”。说到底，这是家庭内部的决定。核心家庭是不是经济压力很大？两代之间有没有明确的共识？这些都要看具体情况。我家的情况是，我继母退休后，我每月给她一笔生活费。

I I don't think that's a right. I mean, again, it's it's a family decision. Whether the smaller family, the nuclear family is under a lot of financial pressure, whether they test it or or clear agreement between the one generation and the other is there to to provide a solution. It really depends. In my family, I give my stepmother a monthly allowance once she's retired.

我的意思是，这算是……

I mean, that's that's sort of a Are

你是瑞典人吗？不是。好了，今天的圆桌就到这儿。我是Steve。

you Swedish? No. Alright. Well, that's all the time we have for roundtable today. I'm Steve.

这位是Lai Ming，这位是你，Sean。感谢两位。也感谢你抽出时间陪伴我们，希望你下次继续收听。

That's Lai Ming. That's you, Sean. Thanks to them both. And thank you as well for sharing your time with us. And we hope that you, of course, will come back again next time.