恭喜你获得博士学位。接下来呢？

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

您正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是牛红林，今天与史蒂夫和一山共同参与讨论。

I'm Niu Hong Lin, joined by Steve and Yishan.

在大多数职业中，经验是一种优势。

In most professions, experience is an asset.

然而，在学术界——一个本应建立在终身学习基础上的领域——年龄在某些情况下却意外地成为了一道障碍。

Yet in academia, ironically a field built on lifelong learning, age is somehow becoming a barrier in certain cases.

博士项目的快速扩张、稳定的招聘配额以及激烈的竞争，使得年龄限制成为招聘中效率的代名词。

The rapid expansion of doctoral programs, stable hiring quotas, and intense competition have turned age limits into a shorthand for efficiency in recruitment.

这一趋势引发了诸多重大问题：大学如何定义人才？研究文化如何重视创造力？机构又该如何规划长期的学术活力？

This trend raises large questions about how universities define talent, how research cultures value creativity, and how institutions plan for long term scholarly vitality.

今天，我们将深入探讨在推送通知时代，博士求职中的35岁以下规则——消息发出与回复之间的间隔，已成为期望值的战场。

Today, we'll take a closer look at the 35 and under rule in the PhD job in the age of push notifications, the gap between message sent and message replied has become a battleground for of expectation.

我们渴望即时回应，却又反感不断要求快速回复的压力。

We crave crave immediacy, yet we resent the constant demand for quick responses.

对于那些只被阅读却未回复的消息，你有什么看法？

What's your take on the messages left on just read?

让我们来谈谈这个话题。

Let's talk about it.

但在那之前，每年都有更多人投身博士研究，希望进入教学与学术领域。

But before that every year, more people commit to pursuing doctoral research, hoping to enter the world of teaching and scholarship.

然而，围绕他们的体制变化速度远超他们的预期。

But the structure around them is changing faster than they are.

曾经看似只是行政细节的年龄限制，如今已演变为决定性的障碍，重塑着谁有资格留在学术界，谁在尚未起步时就被推了出去。

Age restrictions that once seemed like administrative details have become decisive hurdles reshaping who gets to belong in academia and who gets pushed out before they even begin.

当博士毕业生申请大学教职时，尤其是在中国，他们多常遇到‘不超过35岁’的限制？

When PhDs are applying for faculty positions at universities, how common do they encounter this no more than thirty five year old rule, especially here in China?

哇。

Wow.

这是一个巨大的变化，因为我记得不久之前，我们还讨论过国家公务员考试，当时将年龄上限从35岁提高到了38岁。

That's a really big changing because I remember just not very long ago, we just talked about the National Civil Service examination, which reached kind of elevated its age bar from 35 to 38.

但对许多博士毕业生来说，正如你提到的，荷兰，35岁的年龄限制可能仍然是他们追求理想学术职位的障碍。

But here for many PhD graduates, that age limit of 35 might still be a hurdle for them to pursue an ideal job in academia like you mentioned, Holland.

根据2024年和2025年一些高校的招聘公告，申请学术职位的青年人才年龄要求大多在35岁以下，有些高校甚至将年龄上限降至32岁，但对特别优秀的候选人可放宽至40岁。

So according to recruitment announcement from some universities in 2024 and twenty twenty twenty five, the age requirement for young talent applying for academic positions is mostly under 35 years old, and some universities have even lowered the age limit to 32 with exceptions made for particularly outstanding candidates allowing the age limits for these people to be extended to 40 years old.

因此，从事学术研究、博士后工作或成为大学教职人员，通常被视为博士毕业生有吸引力甚至理想的职业路径。

So working in academia as a researcher or postdoc or becoming a university staff, that's commonly seen as an attractive, if not ideal career path for PhD grads.

但如今，年龄限制让许多人的这一目标变得更加难以实现。

But the age limit is kind of making this goal harder to achieve nowadays for many of them.

例如，有一所高校发布了2025年的招聘公告。

For example, there is one school that released its 2025 recruitment notice.

那就是东北大学外国语学院，其招聘公告指出，该学院的教学岗位对博士毕业生的年龄要求一般不超过35岁。

That's the Northeastern University's School of Foreign Languages and Cultures, it says that the teaching position required for their school has an age limit of generally not over 35 years old for PhD holders.

副教授的年龄上限不超过40岁，教授的年龄上限不超过50岁。

So and then that's no no more than 40 years old for associate professors and no more than 50 years old for professors.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这是一个分级制度。

So it's a tiered

是的。

Yeah.

系统。

System.

因此，这所大学计划在2025年招聘10名专业技术人员。

So that particular university, they planned to hire 10 professional and technical staff in 2025.

但对于硕士毕业生，年龄限制是28岁以下。

But for master's degree holders, the age limit was under 28 years old.

而且，没错，你提到过，对于博士毕业生，年龄限制是32岁。

And, again, yeah, you mentioned it for PhD old holders, age limit of 32.

一些大学正试图稍微放宽这一限制，但这一点还不完全明确。

Some universities, they're trying to to loosen the limit a little bit, but that's not entirely clear.

他们不希望因为过于僵化的年龄限制而错失人才。

They don't want to miss out on talent due to that very rigid age limit.

一些高校正在招聘过程中考虑更多因素，比如为不同学科设定不同的年龄限制；此外，许多大学表示，他们可能会对所谓的‘特别杰出候选人’放宽年龄限制，但如何定义‘特别杰出候选人’尚不明确。

Some are considering more factors in their recruitment processes, such as setting different age limits for different disciplines, And then on top of that, a lot of universities, they've stated that they may relax the age limit for what they call, quote, exceptionally outstanding candidates, but it's not entirely clear how they're going to define an exceptionally outstanding candidate.

所以这一点仍有待讨论，我想。

So that is open for debate, I suppose.

至于那里会发生什么，我们还不知道。

And what will happen there, we don't know yet.

我们讨论这个问题的原因是，乍一看，我很好奇这是否违反了任何规则、法律或规定。

And the reason that we're discussing this is because at the first look, I was almost curious to know whether or not it's against any types of rules or laws or regulations.

经过核实，我发现在中国，确实有法律禁止任何形式的歧视性

And after checking, I realized that here in China, there are definitely laws anti any kind of discriminative

年龄歧视？

Age discrimination?

是的。

Yeah.

任何形式的歧视政策。

Any type of discrimination policies.

但年龄在任何法律中都没有明确提及。

But let age is not clearly cited in any kind of law.

在不同的法律中，我们有规定禁止性别歧视，因为只有极少数工作确实不适合女性。

In different types of law, we have the ones that states that you cannot have sex discrimination, gender ones, because that only certain very few job that is definitely not suitable suitable for ladies.

比如，有人负责清理男厕所。

I can think of someone who is helping clean the bathroom in the men's bathroom, perhaps.

无论如何，这些情况可以明确设定性别要求，但其他情况就不行。

Anyways, those ones, you can set a clear requirement for different gender, but other ones, you can't.

而且，你不能对任何民族群体设定特定要求，也不能歧视孕妇或正在抚养孩子的人员，除非该职位需要某种特定能力，而其他人不具备这种能力。

And also, it's you cannot have a specific requirement for any type of ethnic group, and also definitely cannot discriminate those who are, for example, pregnant or are raising a kid and cannot have the kind of requirements asking to have people who are without any disabilities, except that this position requires a certain ability that the other person does not have.

但年龄在任何法律中都没有规定。

But age is not in any type of law.

这只是一个总体指导原则，即不能因为年龄而歧视他人。

It's said as a general directive, a general idea that you cannot discriminate people because of their age.

但我们可以理解，在某些情况下，年龄因素确实很重要。

But definitely, we can somehow understand that age the age factor can be important in certain occasions.

一是，招聘方在招聘人员。

One, the place is hiring for people.

例如，如果一家公司只想雇佣银发族，因为他们需要更有经验的人来担任某个职位，这并不构成对年轻一代的歧视。

For example, if a company is merely thinking about hiring the silver age group because they need people who are more experienced for the certain position, they're not having any discrimination against younger generation.

对的。

Right.

反之亦然。

And vice versa.

这就是这个理念。

It's the idea.

所以这只是一个原则，一个总体原则，而不是一项具体明确的法律。

So it's only a principle, general principle, instead of a very specific law.

从另一个角度来看，这反而为年轻的博士毕业生创造了更多机会。

It's also if you look at it from a different angle, it's creating more opportunities for young PhD holders ironically.

是的。

Yes.

如果这么说的话，市场已经饱和了。

The market got flooded, if you will.

早在2015年，全国就有74,000名博士生在读。

Back in 2015, there were 74,000 PhD students enrolled in the country.

到2020年和2024年，这一数字分别上升到了116,000和171,000。

That number rose to a 116,000 and a 171,000 in 2020 and 2024 respectively.

增长超过了50%和130%。

That's up by over 50% and a 130.

这数量相当大，博士生和最终获得博士学位的人越来越多。

That's a lot, more PhD students and then eventual PhD holders.

而当这些人四到六年后毕业时，近年来就业市场上的新博士毕业生也越来越多。

And when those people graduated four to six years later, there have been more and more fresh PhD holders in the job market in recent years.

所以这是一个供需问题，对吧？

So you've got it's a supply and demand issue, isn't it?

越来越多的人获得博士学位，但为这些博士毕业生提供的职位却越来越少。

You've got more and more people getting their PhD, but fewer positions available for those for those PhD holders.

设置年龄限制的一个好处是，这些职位可以留给刚毕业、完成学业的人。

And one of the benefits of of having the age limit is that you're saving those jobs for the people who have just come out and finished their degrees.

如果这些职位被52岁、49岁或其他年纪更大的人占据，就会挤占本属于年轻人的岗位，进一步加剧年轻博士毕业生找不到工作的困境。

If those positions were filled by 52 year olds or 49 year olds or what have you, then that would be taking away positions, and it would worsen the problem of younger people coming out with their PhD not being able to find positions.

作为一个刚满35岁的人，我很好奇，从科学角度来看，有没有研究指出学术研究的黄金年龄是什么时候？

As someone who's just passed to the age of 35, I'm curious, scientifically speaking, is there any kind of research showing what are the prime time when it comes to academic research?

我的意思是，这其实是个有趣又复杂的问题。

I mean, because it's it's kind of a interesting and complicated issue.

你还需要人们具备创造力和创新能力。

You also need you need people to be creative and innovative.

同时，他们也需要非常努力，长时间工作，并能在思考问题时记住某些结果或灵光一现的瞬间。

Also need them to work really hard, working long long hours and being able to remember certain results or certain sparks when they are thinking about the the issue.

那么，年龄与学术表现之间有什么关联吗？

So is there anything in regards to age related to academic performances?

简短的回答是：有。

Short answer is yes.

因为有研究表明，自然科学研究人员的最佳年龄范围是25到45岁之间。

Because there is research showing that the optimal age range for researchers of natural sciences is between 25 and 45.

这个阶段与他们职业生涯的早期高度重合，也是他们进行创新研究、打破旧有框架并开创全新成果的黄金时期。

So that's a period that aligns closely with the early stages of their careers, and that's also the prime year for research in the for them to research innovatively and break the old while creating the new regarding their academic production.

所以，是的，但这并不适用于所有领域。

So, yes, but not covering all major.

当然。

Definitely.

我们并没有一概而论或贴标签。

We're not generalizing or putting labels on anything.

我们知道很多八九十岁依然产出卓越研究成果的聪明而杰出的科学家。

We know plenty of smart and brilliant scientists who are in their eighties or nineties and still giving out great research results.

所以说，我们再谈另一个非常有趣的因素，对于那些不太熟悉中国相关研究领域的朋友来说，我们有一个叫做‘国家自然科学基金青年项目’的计划。

So that being said, we another factor, very interesting one, and for those of you who are not that familiar with the research related area here in China, we have something called a National Natural Science Foundation Youth Program.

这个项目的年龄上限是男性35岁，女性40岁，许多大学里的年轻博士都试图申请这个项目，这几乎是他们的一项重要目标。

And that program's cap is thirty five years old for men and 40 years old for women, and that one is the one that a lot of young PhDs in universities trying to get, and it's kind of one of their goals.

此外，大学在某种程度上也会因为其教职员工获得这类基金的数量而受到评估。

And universities would also, in a certain way, be be assessed by how many of these kind of foundations they have or their faculties have.

因此，从这个角度看，设立这样一个基金很自然——目的是鼓励年轻科学家，为他们提供开展研究所需的资金和支持。

So from that point, it's quite natural to know why there is such a foundation, is to encourage the young scientists, give them the money they need to do their research, giving them support.

但在当前这种特定情况下，这也成为高校在招聘时更倾向于选择较年轻博士的一个原因。

But at this specific particular situation, it's also becoming a reason that those universities, one hiring, favor relatively younger PhDs.

是的。

Yeah.

但问题是，在这么短的时间内完成博士学位其实非常困难。如果你18岁上大学，本科四年，硕士两到三年，博士四到六年，那么当你毕业时，理论上年龄会在28到31岁之间，这还是假设你一路连贯完成、没有任何中断的情况。

But the problem with that is that it's really hard to finish your PhD in that amount of time because if you entered the if you enter university when you're 18 years old and you spend four years doing your undergrad and then two to three years for your master's and then four to six years to get your PhD, well then by the time you graduate, theoretically, you're gonna be somewhere between 28 and 31 years old, and that's if you do it consistently without any breaks.

这就使得你职业生涯的起步和找到理想工作的时间窗口变得非常有限，挑战不小。

This makes it quite a challenge to I mean, that leaves you a limited window in terms of, you know, starting your career and finding the job that you want to.

但如果你有学术中断，比如因为个人原因休学一年，你就会消耗掉自己的时间窗口。

But, you know, if there are academic gaps, if you take a year off to do this or that, whatever the case might be in your own personal life, you're eating into your own time window,

因此，许多博士生或毕业生正面临这个问题，他们也在讨论它。

And so to that is why a lot of PhD students or graduates are are facing this problem, and they're talking about it.

他们正在尝试寻找不同的方法来应对，因为像史蒂夫说的，作为个人追求事业时，有很多因素需要考虑。

And they're trying to find different ways to deal with this because, like Steve said, there there's a lot of factor to think about if you are as an individual, you're pursuing the career.

你希望一生从事科研，但同时你也必须面对组建家庭的期望。

You wanna work for science for your entire life, but at the same time, you still have to face the expectation of starting a family.

在中国，我们有一种观念，一旦到了30岁，你就应该开始思考独立生活，规划自己的人生，至少要踏上成功人生道路的起点。

In China, we have this concept of once you hit the age 30, you're supposed to be thinking about independent, about building something out of your life already, or at least ending at a starting point of a successful life path.

是的。

Yeah.

我正在朝那个方向努力。

I'm getting there.

我正在朝那个方向努力。

I'm getting there.

就是这样。

It's that.

而且家人也对你有期望，希望你能找个人，开始建立家庭，等等。

And there's also the expectations from the family that you're supposed to be, you know, finding someone, start So a

因此，完全可以预期你可能在33岁或35岁才完成博士学业，即便如此，也仍被视为相对年轻的。

therefore, it's really reasonable to assume that you might finish a PhD when you're 33 or 35, and even that would be considered on the younger side of things.

但仅仅因为你不到35岁并获得了博士学位，并不意味着你一定能找到工作，它只意味着你符合年龄要求。

But just because you're under 35 and you have your PhD, that doesn't guarantee that you're going to get a job, it just means that you qualify under that age.

用于申请。

For applying.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

而实际情况是，你把整个学术生涯都投入到了获取博士学位上，那人们的假设是什么？

And what's happening is that you've spent your academic career to acquire that PhD, What's the assumption?

人们的假设是，只要你拿到博士学位，就能顺利开启成功的人生，但很多这个年龄段的博士发现，他们甚至无法在学术领域找到工作。

The assumption is that, you know, if you get a PhD, you're off and running to a successful life, and a lot of PhD holders in that age group are finding they can't even work in the academic field.

根本就没有职位给

There's just no positions for

即使有职位，一旦拿到手也很难保住。

Even there is a position, it's really hard to retain the position after you have it.

如今大学对年轻教职员工的评估标准不同，但通常涵盖多个方面，包括教学、研究表现、社会服务时间，甚至科研经费来源。

Universities nowadays, they have different evaluation standards for young faculty, but they typically cover just a whole category of things including teaching, how you're doing your research, your social service time, and even research funding, where you're getting your funding from.

因此，如果博士毕业生的评估结果被认定为合格或良好，他们就可以进入下一个聘期。

So if the PhD grads, their evaluation result are deemed qualified or good, they can move to the next appointment period.

对于新聘用的讲师，通常有两个评估周期，每个周期持续三年。

There are usually two evaluation period for new employed lecturers each lasting three years.

所以，你熬过一个阶段后，还会有下一个阶段，之后可能还有更多阶段。

So you survive one phase and then there's another following and then perhaps more following afterwards.

我上大学时的教授曾向我们抱怨，他们在教学的同时还要做研究，面对如此多的其他学术职责，要满足三年或几年内必须达成的标准，实在太艰难了。

I've had my university teachers back in the days when I was college student who complained literally to us about how hard it is for them to finish their research while teaching and do research while amid of all the other academic responsibilities they have to carry in order to meet the standards or the requirements asked of them to fulfill that three year or a few

年，因为他们被期望发表论文

year Because time they're expected to publish

一定的论文数量。

Certain numbers of paper.

对。

Right.

如今对于博士生来说，世界很艰难，但对每个人来说，外面的世界也都挺艰难的。

It's a tough world for PhDs these days, but it kinda is also a tough world out there for everybody.

所以我想问的是，如果这类政策持续下去，我们已经知道这种政策对大学带来的起伏影响。

So I think my question is, if this kind of policies continue, we already know the ups and downs of such policy for universities.

也许他们能招到更年轻的博士，但肯定会错过那些超过年龄限制的人才。

Maybe they can get younger PhDs, but definitely, they would miss out to the talent who are over that age limit.

但对于那些心系学术界的年轻学生来说，你认为这类政策或这种现象会影响他们追求学术生涯或继续攻读博士学位的热情吗？

But for young students, for those who have their hearts on academia world, do you think this kind of policies or this kind of phenomenon would affect their passion in pursuing, further pursuing a academic life or just a PhD?

我认为这会极大地影响他们。

I would assume it would influence that heavily.

是的。

Yes.

如果你是出于对生活的热爱而这么做，好吧。

If you are doing this out of the passion of your life, okay.

如果你是为了未来的职业保障而这么做，那么根据我们刚才讨论的数据，你不能依赖这一点。

If you're doing this out of potential job security for your future, you can't rely on that according to the numbers that we're talking about here.

如果市场上 PhD 持有者泛滥，那么每一个新颁发的 PhD 学位是否会贬低之前所有已颁发的 PhD 学位的价值？

If the market gets flooded with PhD holders, will that every new PhD degree that comes out devalues all previous PhDs that came out.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

你明白我的意思。

You know what I mean.

对吧？

Right?

因为出来的越多，你的 PhD 就越不稀罕。

Because the more that come out, the less rare your PhD becomes.

所以，如果越来越多的人在做这件事，追求这些博士学位，而未来的发展路径又充满不确定性，我的话，我会看看这种情况，觉得或许换个方向对我更明智。

So if more and more people are doing this and pursuing these PhD degrees and the there's uncertainty about the path to the future, I mean, if it's me if it's me, I'm gonna look at that and say, might be smarter for me to go a different direction.

是的。

Yeah.

这对许多三十岁出头、三十二岁左右的人来说也是一样的。

That's the same for many who who is around their 30, 32.

很多人根本不确定在这个年纪攻读博士学位是否值得。

Many are just simply uncertain whether it's worth it in the first place to pursue a PhD at their age.

他们觉得自己在过程中已经落后了。

And they consider themselves late in the process.

同时，这并不是要泼你冷水，如果你仍然想走这条路的话。

And in the meantime, this is not to pour any rain on any of your parade if you still want to pursue that path.

当然，无论你是在35岁之前、之后或正好35岁获得博士学位，你依然有各种途径可以拥有非常成功的职业生涯。

Of course, there are all different ways for you to still get a very successful career after you graduate with your PhD degree at or over or below the age of 35?

是的。

Yeah.

如果你仔细想想，这真的很令人难过，不是吗？

Which is really sad if you think about it, isn't it?

因为刚才我表达的那种态度，你知道，一个30岁或32岁的人说，我对追求学术生涯、获得博士学位非常感兴趣，这会让你处于什么位置？

Because that attitude that I just expressed, you know, for a 30 year old or a 32 year old to say, you know, I'm really interested in pursuing a career in academia, acquiring a PhD degree, which is puts you in the what?

我认为，你是世界上受教育程度最高的人群中的前1%。

Top 1% of the most educated people in the world, I assume.

我没有相关统计数据。

I don't have statistics.

但你可能会想，30岁或32岁才开始攻读博士学位，是不是太晚了？

But you might think, oh, I'm too old at 30 or 32 to start your pursuit of your PhD.

这真让人难过。

That's sad.

因此，当我们做这些决定时，即使作为个体，我也建议你全面评估自己的人生，找出追求学术生涯背后真正的原因。

So when we're making these kind of decisions, even as an individual, I think try to make sure or try to have a full assessment of your life and find out the reason, the real reason behind the pursuing of academic career.

对于那些想着找份工作、开始生活的人来说，这可能确实不是最好的选择。

For those who are thinking about securing a job and starting a life, maybe this is definitely not well, perhaps it's not the best option.

但对于那些真正热衷于研究、工作、DEMEA生活的人，他们仍然会参与其中。

But for those who really, really have their hearts on pursuing research, work, DEMEA life, they will still be in the game.

如果他们抱有这种态度，我相信你也能赢得这场游戏。

And if they have that attitude, I believe you can win that game as well.

接下来是《圆桌讨论》，敬请收听。

You're listening to Roundtable coming up next.

在24小时随时保持联系的时代，我们往往在信息堆积时感到压力山大，而当自己的消息无人回应时又感到受伤。

In the age of stay in touch twenty four seven, we tend to feel overwhelmed when messages pile up, but wounded when our own go unanswered.

让我们在广告后立即剖析这一数字悖论。

Let's examine this digital paradox right after the break.

在寻找激情吗？

Looking for passion?

那激烈的辩论呢？

How about fiery debate?

想从不同视角了解中国时事吗？

Wanna hear about current events in China from different perspectives?

那就锁定《圆桌论坛》，在这里，东西方交汇，理解是目标。

Then tune in to Roundtable, where east meets west and understanding is the goal.

欢迎收听《圆桌论坛》，我是史蒂夫·哈瑟利和余申。

It's Roundtable with myself, Steve Hatherley, and Yu Shen.

你有没有过这种感觉：你的消息显示已读，但半小时后还是没有回复？

Do you know that feeling when your message shows red but half an hour later, still no response?

你坐在那里盯着手机，心想：我是不是被数字性地冷落了？

You're sitting there staring at your phone like, am I being digitally ghosted?

一定是我说了什么不对的话。

It must be something I said.

如果我现在再发一条消息，会不会显得太迫切了？

If I send over another message now, will it be too desperate?

这就像一种缓慢燃烧的焦虑。

It's like a slow burn of anxiety.

那么，我们该如何在保持联系和拥有生活空间之间找到平衡，避免陷入数字焦虑的漩涡？

So how do we find a balance between staying connected and still having space to live our lives without falling into a spiral of digital dread?

你有这种感觉吗？

Do you have that feeling?

你在那种情况下会感到焦虑吗？

Do you do you do you are you feeling anxious in that situations?

没有。

No.

真的吗？

Really?

我没有。

I'm not.

真的吗？

Really?

为什么没有？

Why not?

你非常平静，可以说是相当稳定。

You have a very, let's say, stable Calm.

是的。

Yes.

非常平静。

Very calm.

康纳的气场

Conner's aura

风格。

style.

我的意思是，我发短信的人只有我的朋友、妻子和父母。

Well, I mean, the only people I text are my buddies and my wife and my parents.

所以如果我父母没有立刻回复我的短信，我也不在意。

So if my parents don't answer my text immediately, don't care.

如果我的朋友没有立刻回复我的短信，我也不在意。

If my buddies don't answer my text immediately, don't care.

而我妻子总是很快回复我的短信，所以这方面我不用担心。

And my wife always answers my texts pretty quickly, so don't need to worry about that.

我认为，这种由未回复的消息——或者更准确地说，已读但未回复的消息——引发的焦虑现象，在约会领域最为常见。

I think this phenomenon of anxiety inducing unread or sorry, read yet not replied messages would be most commonly found in the dating world.

是的。

Yes.

在很多应用中，我们都能看到这种现象，你可以明确知道你的消息已被阅读。

And we see this phenomenon in a lot of apps where you can see for sure that your message message is read.

对。

Right.

然后你知道这个人已经读了，却决定不回复。

And then you know that this person has read it, but decide not to reply.

这是最糟糕的情况之一。

And that is one of the worst situations.

在中国，我们的许多社交媒体应用上，你其实看不到那种红色的已读标记。

And here in China, on many of our social media apps, you don't really see the red note on it.

但有时候，你还是能看到他们在微信朋友圈里发帖。

Yet, sometimes you can see them posting something in their, you know, social media account in the WeChat moment.

好的。

Okay.

不过，这有点像跟踪行为吧？

That's a little stalker ish on your behalf though, is it?

不是你，但其他人确实会这样。

Not you, but Yeah.

那个发消息的人

The person who's

这让我很困扰。

It bothers me.

所以我会去查看这个人是否在互联网上发布了什么，表明他们看过手机却选择不回复我的消息。

So I will check whether or not this person has done something on the Internet showcasing they've checked their phone and they decide not to reply my message.

但你只在约会情境下才会这么做，对吧？

But you're you're only doing that in the dating context, are you not?

如果你妈妈三个小时没回你消息，你也不会去翻她社交媒体看吧

If your mom doesn't reply to your message in the first three hours, you're not going on your mom's social media to see

如果她发帖的话。

if she's posting.

并不总是这样。

Not always the case.

就我而言，如果父母过了一段时间还没回复，我会担心。

In in my case, if my parents don't reply after a decent amount of time, I'll worry.

我会感到焦虑和不安，猜测他们是不是生我的气，或者有什么别的原因。

I'll get worried and concerned, wondering if they'll they're they're mad at me or for some reason.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的。

Yeah.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

而且这种情况对不同的人影响方式截然不同。

And it see, it happens or it impacts individuals in very different ways.

对一些人来说，这种所谓的‘已读不回’现象是现代沟通中最不可饶恕的罪过。

For some, this whole thing called left on red phenomenon is the ultimate cardinal sin of modern messaging.

这是他们无法原谅、也无法理解的行为。

It's it's something they do not forgive and they do not understand.

首先，我绝对是那种一知道消息已读却无人回复就会焦虑的人。

To start with, I am definitely one of those people who get anxious while knowing that my message is read yet unreplied.

而且我并不是一个人。

And I'm not alone.

2024年《北京青年报》的一项调查显示，超过一半的受访中国Z世代在看到消息已读但没有回复时会感到沮丧或被忽视。

A 2024 survey by Beijing Youth Daily found that more than half of Chinese generation z surveyed feel down or ignored when they see red but get no reply.

此外，近24%的受访者认为，单纯让人消息未读是一种有点无礼的行为。

On top of that, more or nearly 24% of respondents think it's a bit rude to simply leave people unread.

但我想知道，我们这样想是否合理？

But I wanna know, is it reasonable for us to think this way?

如果你深入探究人类心理，这种想法其实是有一定道理的。

If you go deeper into human psychology, it does actually make some sense.

这是一种强烈的情绪反应，而不仅仅是敏感。

There's a strong emotional reaction, and it's not just being sensitive.

这其实是我们的生存本能。

It's kind of our survival instinct.

从生物学角度来说，当我们感到被忽视、被排斥或被群体抛弃时，大脑会进入研究人员有时称为‘疼痛模式’的状态，这时大脑的反应几乎和你撞到脚趾、割到手指时一模一样。

Biologically speaking, when we feel ignored or excluded or pushed out of a group, our brain flips into what researchers sometimes call a pain mode, and that's when your brain reacts almost the same way it does when you stub your toe or you cut your finger or something like that.

真正的痛苦。

A real pain.

是的。

Yeah.

身体上的疼痛。

Physical pain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后研究显示，当一个人经历拒绝时——比如看到你已读了我的消息却还没回复——大脑中两个关键区域会活跃起来。

And then studies have shown that when a person experiences rejection, which could come in the form of I see you've read my message and haven't responded yet, two key areas of your brain light up.

一个负责感知身体疼痛，另一个则与身体感受不适有关。

One that detects physical, pain, and then another linked to how the body experiences discomfort.

所以，下次当你没有回复某人，而你知道他们已经看到你读了消息时，你实际上给予他们的回应，就跟他们身体受伤或情感受伤时得到的一样。

So remember that the next time that you're not replying to someone and you know they can see that you've read their message, you're actually giving them the same response that they would get if they physically hurt themselves or emotionally hurt them.

谢谢你这么说。

Thank you for saying that.

我从不这样做。

I never do that.

我总会回复，除非我在开会。

I would always, always respond unless I'm in a meeting.

我没带手机。

I don't have my phone.

我在参加节目。

I'm on the show.

我确实没法回复消息。

I cannot really reply to the message.

或者我只是太忙了。

And or the fact that I'm simply too too busy.

我会稍后回复并解释我的情况。

I will reply later and explain my situation.

但我也知道，要求每个人都这样做是不公平的。

But I also know it's not fair to ask everyone to do that.

那么，当我们没有立即收到回复时，我们能否说服自己，一方面避免那种几乎像身体疼痛一样的大脑不适感？

So is there anything that we can, you know, persuade ourselves when we do not get the message, replied instantly to e well, on the one hand, avoid the almost physical pain kind of pain in our brain.

另一方面，也要对那些没有回复我们的人多一些理解。

And at the other I will also, you know, be a little bit more understanding towards those who are not replying our

别这样。

Just don't

查看。

check.

啊。

Ah.

如果你不查看，你就不会知道。

If you don't check, you won't know.

但如果不查看，我就不会阅读，也不会回复。

But if I don't check, I don't read and I don't reply.

不。

No.

我的意思是，不要去查看你的消息是否已被阅读。

I mean, don't check if your message has been read.

啊。

Ah.

而对于如今的年轻人，以及各个年龄段的人们来说，我们 simply 不想立即回复，正是因为不想让回复成为我们的全职工作。

And then for, I guess, of the young people nowadays and people of all ages, we just simply don't want to reply instantly because of the very fact that we don't want that to be our full time job.

因为很多时候，如今在我们中间盛行的这种回复文化，给我们带来了必须立即回复的压力。

Because many of the times, it's like this whole reply culture that's so popular among all of us nowadays gives us the pressure to reply immediately.

同时，也剥夺了我们更专注于当下、更好奇地体验此刻正在做的事情，并好好享受它的能力。

And in the meantime, robbing us of being able to live more presently and curiously of what you're doing at this very moment and just try to enjoy it.

现在对我们来说真的越来越难了。

It's getting really hard for us nowadays.

在红勾时代，不作为在很多方面本身就是一种行动，因为阅读消息后有意识地选择不回复，也是一种明确的传达。

And inaction, in many ways, in the age of red receipts can be a form of action on its own because by reading a message and consciously choosing not to reply, it's also a clear message sent.

我现在正在处理一些事情，而你暂时还不是我的优先事项。

I have something I'm working on right now and you are, for the moment, not my priority.

哎呀。

Ouch.

很多时候这样是可以的。

Which is okay for a lot of times.

不用说得这么直接。

Don't don't have to word it like that.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

也许你可以为别人着想，因为你完全可以关闭你的

Maybe do other people a favor because you can turn off your

红色通知。

red Notification.

红色收据。

Red receipts.

是的。

Yes.

所以如果你关闭了这个功能，如果大家都关闭了这些功能，这种焦虑就会完全消失。

So if you turn that off on if everybody turns those off, nobody this anxiety will simply disappear.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

玉山，你会跟你的父母表达吗？比如，你如果不及时回复，我会感到紧张和担心。

Do you express that to your parents, Yushan, that, you know, if you don't reply quickly, it makes me nervous and worried.

从不。

Never.

你从不告诉他们

You never tell them

吗？

that?

因为我知道，需要应对这个问题的是我，而不是他们。

Because I know it's me that need to deal with it, not them.

他们也有自己的事情要处理。

They have stuff to work on.

但也许如果你告诉他们，他们就会回复得更快？

But maybe if you told them that, then they might just reply faster?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好主意。

That's a good idea.

我爸爸经常告诉我，他在我没回复时会感到焦虑。

My dad used to tell me that all the time that he's anxious when I'm not replying.

所以是的。

So Yes.

在理想情况下，我们有空时总会回复消息，而不会太在意消息是否已读但未回复。

So in a perfect world, we would always reply the messages when we have time, and we would not care or care that much about the message read but but not replied.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在结束今天的节目之前，我想为大家提供一个小提示：实际上，本周末将举办一场中档淋浴活动。

And before putting a close to today's show, I want to do a little bit of a service to tell you that the mid tier actually, there will be a mid tier shower happening this weekend.

真想听听淋浴。

Long to hear shower.

是的。

Yes.

希望天空会放晴。

Hopefully, the skies will be clear.

是的。

Yes.

它将在12月13日发生，并且会被广泛观测到。

It will happen in December 13, and it is widely observed.

嗯，它确实会被广泛观测到，而且绝对是一场非常明亮多彩的天象。

Well, it can be widely observed, and it's definitely a very bright colorful one.

如果你感兴趣，可以查看你所在地区任何你常用的天气应用或网站的预警信息，或许你能度过一个非常浪漫的周末。

So if you're interested, maybe check the weather alert in your local whatever app or website that you're interested in knowing, and maybe you can have a very romantic weekend.

这是得益于《巴黎协定》吗？

Is that thanks to the Paris Agreement?

你早就知道这个信息？

You knew that information?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这也就结束了今天的圆桌讨论。

And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.

我们非常期待听到您对今天话题的看法。

We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.

请在评论区留言，或发送邮件至 roundtablepodcast@qq.com 与我们联系。

Leave us a comment or send us an email to roundtablepodcast@qq.com.

我是林日宏，和史蒂夫、易生一起主持。

I'm Nihong Lin with Steve and Yisheng.

非常感谢您的收听。

Thank you so much for listening.

再见。

Bye bye.