如何与Matt Fitzgerald一起掌握跑步

如果你真有当运动员的天赋，能逼近极致，那你就永远不会停下精进，因为你天生就爱学习，总能找到新方法，把自己逼得更进一步。

If you have what it takes as an athlete to get really close to mastery, then you're never going to stop refining, you know, because you have what it takes to, you know, just like always learn, always like just, you know, you know, find new ways to get more out of yourself.

我觉得这段旅程从来就没有终点。

I don't think the journey ever ends.

如果你听说过‘二八法则’，说80%的跑步训练都该是轻松跑，那今天这位嘉宾马特·菲茨杰拉德，早就帮上你的训练了。

If you've ever heard of the eighty twenty rule where 80% of your mileage is easy running, then today's guest, Matt Fitzgerald, has already helped your training.

他写过很多广为人知的跑步书籍，还是‘二八耐力训练营’的创始人和教练。

He's the author of many well known running books as well as founder and coach for the eighty twenty Endurance Group.

他也是节目的老嘉宾了，就在这一期播出的前一天，他刚发布了新书，讲如何精通跑步这项运动。

He's also a repeat guest on the show, and the day before this episode comes out, released his new book on how to master the sport of running.

我好像刚才在节目里说错成‘播出后’了，不过你要是正在听，书已经出了。

I think I might have accidentally said the day after in the show, but if you're listening, it's out.

赶紧去看看节目简介里的链接吧。

So check out the link in the show notes.

他说的‘精通’，跟天赋、时间、资源都没关系。

Mastery, as he describes it, has nothing to do with talent or even time and resources.

这意味着，即使你是个每天上班、马拉松跑五小时的普通人，依然完全有可能发挥出自己作为运动员的全部潜力。

That means that if you're listening as a five hour marathoner with a full time job, it's still completely possible to reach your full potential as an athlete.

说实话，我觉得这个理念挺棒的——突破自己的极限。

I think it's a pretty cool concept, to be honest, reaching your personal limits.

所以我请马特来节目里聊聊，他觉得要达到那种境界需要什么，以及他作为一个50岁非职业跑者，是怎么做到精通跑步的。

And I wanted to get Matt on the show to share what it takes to get there and how he believes that he managed to master running as a 50 year old non pro runner.

马特是业内最有见识的作家之一，但他为人特别接地气，他还跟我说，他想让跑者播客里喝啤酒变得正常起来，如果你在YouTube上看视频，就会发现他真这么干了。

Matt is one of the most knowledgeable writers out there, but he's also really down to earth guy who told me that he wants to normalize drinking beer on running podcasts, which you'll see if you're watching on YouTube.

好了，咱们直接进入访谈。

So with that, let's get into the interview.

大家好，跑者们，欢迎收听《跑向巅峰》播客，我们的目标是让每一期节目都帮你成为更好的跑者。

Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode.

我是节目制作人科里·纳格勒。

I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

我不是顶尖跑者，但我们会一起探索各种新方法和话题，帮你把跑步水平提升到新高度。

And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level.

这个播客由RunnersConnect.net的资深教练团队制作和运营，那里有全网最优质的跑步资讯，还有适合每位跑者、各种预算的训练计划。

This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

Matt，欢迎你来参加我们的节目。我有点不确定该说‘欢迎你第一次来’，还是‘欢迎你回来’，因为我觉得你之前好像跟别的主持人做过一期，不过不管怎样，很高兴你来到《Run to the Top》。

Matt, it's good to have you show on the show, and I'm I'm not sure if I should welcome you here for the first time or or back because I think you were with a a different host, but great to have you with us on Run to the Top.

是的。

Yeah.

能来这儿我很开心。

Great to be here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

太好了。

Cool.

你上次来的时候，是Claire还是Finn主持的来着？

And last time you were here, was it Claire or was it Finn who would have been

主持人？

host?

克莱尔。

Claire.

哦。

Oh.

是克莱尔。

It was Claire.

明白了。

Okay.

那次是为你写的另一本书做的访谈。

That was, that was for a different book you had, written.

当时重点是《反弹力》这本书。

The comeback quotient, I think, was the focus.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Uh-huh.

是的。

Yes.

我有时候会搞混。

I I lose track.

我得说实话。

I gotta be honest.

你懂的。

You know?

我写了很多本书。

I write a lot of books.

说得通。

Fair enough.

说实话，我也特别喜欢那本书。

Honestly, I'm a big fan of that one as well.

我觉得这本书对任何想了解运动员心理的人都很有启发，不过今天我们重点聊的是你最近的一本书，大概在采访发布后不久就会出版，叫《追求精通》。

I think really good insight into athlete mentality for anyone listening, but our focus today is on one of your more recent books, which I think will be coming out just after this interview releases, which is called Chasing Mastery.

对。

Mhmm.

你能先给我们透露一点这本书的内容吗？

Do you wanna give us a little bit of a hint as to what's in that book?

当然可以。

Sure thing.

是的。

Yes.

除了写很多关于跑步的书，我其实也是一名跑步教练。

So, you know, in addition to writing a lot of books about running, I'm also a a running coach.

我现在正在亚利桑那州弗拉格斯塔夫的梦幻跑者营给你说话，这地方就像一个永不停歇的成人跑者训练天堂。

I'm I'm coming at you from Dream Run Camp in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is like like, you know, like a fantasy training retreat for adult runners that never ends.

这里全年都在运营。

It just operates year round.

所以说，教练才是我真正做的事。

So, you know, like, know, coaching is what I do.

我觉得我的职责就是帮助跑者逐步掌握这项运动，因为我不是人生教练，也不是心理咨询师，我得守住自己的专业边界。作为跑步教练，只要你专注于提升跑者的技能，照样能和他们建立深厚的关系。这种理念本质上是一种成长型思维——帮助跑者探索自己作为运动员的潜力。当你在跑步中进步时，你整个人也在成长，这是实实在在的蜕变。

And I view my role as like my job is to help runners move toward mastery of their sport because like, I'm not a life coach, I'm not a therapist, you know, like I need to stay in my lane as a running coach And and, you know, for me, you can still have a pretty fulsome relationship with an athlete as a coach staying here in your lane if you have that mastery orientation because it's like it's like a it's like a developmental way of looking at finding out what's possible for you as an athlete, you know, like, you know, the idea of like you can grow as a person as you grow as an athlete, like you're truly, you know, developing.

对我自己来说，跑步也是这么回事。我教运动员的时候，传递的正是这种态度，《追逐精通》这本书的核心，也正是这个。

And for me, like, that's that's the way I approach running as an athlete myself and so that's what I try to share with, the athletes I coach and by extension, Chasing Mastery is exactly that.

但其实很少有人去深究这个问题：我们到底为什么这么做？

Because it's not really talked about all that much, like the idea of like, what are we ultimately even doing here?

对大多数人来说，跑步或许只是个爱好，但它绝不是普通的爱好，它是一种热情。

You know, like, what where like, in as much as like, you know, the sport is a hobby for most of us, but it's still a very important hobby, it's like a passion.

那我们最终追求的到底是什么？

It's like like like, what's the north star?

目标不是答案，因为一旦达成一个目标，你马上就会设定一个更难的。

You know, like goals aren't it because as soon as you achieve a goal, you just set another goal that's harder.

所以，我们真正想抵达的，到底是什么？

So like, you know, like, you know, what are we trying to get to?

而我正在努力回应的就是这个问题。

And yeah, so that's what I'm trying to contribute.

是的

Yeah.

当然

For sure.

我觉得跑步挺重要的，但如果你在听这个，那你 probably对这项运动有点着迷了，因为对大多数人来说，怎么练得更快、更精通跑步，大概不会是他们最关心的事。

I I think you know, I I I like to think that running's pretty important, but it's you're you're probably somewhat obsessed with the sport if you're listening to this because I think for the majority of people listening about how to master running around as fast as you can is probably not at the top of their priorities list.

没错

Yep.

对

Yes.

完全正确

100%.

其中一个

One of the

让我从你这本书一开始就印象深刻的是，你提到自己当初对耐力训练和如何精通它，其实有一个不一样的想法。

things that stood out to me right from the start of your book is you kinda talk about how you had this different idea going into it about sort of I think it was something about becoming a journal for endurance training and how to master that.

但我认为，这和掌握这项运动、发挥全部潜力之间有着非常微妙的区别。

But I think it's a really nuanced difference between that and, you know, mastering your sport or achieving your full potential.

我很想听听你对‘掌握’到底意味着什么的看法，以及它和单纯优化训练有什么不同。

Would love to hear your thoughts on what it actually means to achieve mastery and how that's different from just perfecting your training.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，确实如此。

So so yeah.

所以，核心观点其实是，要区分‘表现’和‘能力’，这对很多跑者来说可能是全新的想法，我可以用自己的例子来解释清楚。

So really the core idea, the thing that's going to be novel for a lot of runners is making a distinction between performance and competence and I can try to make that make sense just through the example of myself.

我11岁的时候就开始参加竞技跑步了。

I started running competitively when I was 11 years old.

我觉得自己并没有完全发挥出潜力，也就是说，我那时还有不少余地没挖出来。

I don't think I actually fulfilled my potential, which means like I wasn't leaving anything on the table.

比如，当我回顾一个训练周期和最终的主力比赛时，我会想，其实我在自己能掌控的方面，已经没什么可以做得更好的了。

Like if I look back at a training cycle and the A race that culminated in and said like, there's really not much I could have done better, you know, in terms of like what I had under my control.

对我来说，这花了整整三十五年，等我真正达到那种状态时，身体早已过了巅峰期。那时候我感觉自己完全掌控了自己，作为一个跑者，虽然没再破纪录，但内心更满足，因为我知道自己已经榨干了全部潜力。

You know, for me that took like thirty five years and I was actually past my physical prime when I got to that point where I really felt just in control, the boss of myself, like as a runner, like I wasn't necessarily setting PRs but I was more satisfied because I knew I was getting more out of myself.

这就是关键区别。

So that's the distinction.

举个例子，一个跑四小时的跑者，可能在跑步这件事上比一个跑三小时的跑者更出色——因为那个三小时的跑者其实还有更大潜力，而四小时的跑者却没有。

You know, the idea that in one sense, a four hour marathoner can be better at running than a three hour marathoner because the three hour marathoner actually has the potential to run much faster but the four hour marathoner in this example doesn't.

天赋是上天给的，但能不能好好利用这份天赋，完全是另一回事。

So it's like, well, you know, like it's one thing to be given the gift of talent, it's another thing to do something with your talent.

这才是你能真正掌控的部分，也才是更让人满足的旅程。

That's actually under your control and that's the the more the more satisfying journey.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种直觉吗？

And is that a gut feeling?

因为很容易知道自己有没有破纪录，或者比别人跑得快，但你怎么知道自己是否真正掌握了这项运动？或者说，这根本就不可能完全掌握吗？

Because it's so easy to know if you PR'd or you ran faster than somebody else, but how do you actually know if you've mastered this board or or is it even possible to fully master it?

是的，我觉得这就像一条渐近线，你可以不断靠近，但永远达不到终点。因为如果你真有当运动员的天赋，能接近 Mastery 的境界，你就永远不会停止打磨自己——你天生就爱学习，总能找到新方法，榨出更多潜力。

Yeah, I would say, I mean, you know, it's like an asymptote, you can keep approaching it, because like honestly, if you have what it takes as an athlete to get really close to mastery, then you're never going to stop refining, you know, because you have what it takes to, you know, just like always learn, always like just, you know, find new ways to get more out of yourself.

所以啊，别以为这段旅程会有尽头。

So yeah, don't think the journey ever ends.

但你怎么知道你真的达到了呢？

But like, how do you know?

我知道这话听起来有点玄，但我真的觉得，经过三十五年，我最终达到了那种状态——感觉自己已经真正掌握了跑步。

You know, this like, forgive how this sounds, but I really do think I got to that point, you know, where like I felt like I did kind of master running after thirty five years.

对我来说，那种感觉就是对自己的信任。

And what it felt like to me was self trust.

现在的我，作为一个运动员，内心有一种无比坚定的自信。

Like I just, as an athlete now, I walk around with like unshakable self trust.

我知道自己还是会犯错、会做错决定，但比起过去，我已经少多了。而且我知道，这些错误不会毁掉一切——我始终相信，自己总能想办法解决。

I know I'm gonna make mistakes and make bad decisions but I don't make nearly as many as I used to and I know that like those aren't gonna be ruinous mistakes or bad decisions that I'll I still I know I can always figure it out.

我就知道。

I just know it.

如果你也有这种感觉，心里有底了，那你自然就明白。

And and so like, if you if you feel that and you're walking around with that, like, you know it.

你整个人都清醒了。

You're wide awake.

在我运动员生涯的很长一段时间里，我充满了恐惧、焦虑和怀疑。

Like, you know, for so long in my athletic journey, I I had a lot of fear and anxiety and doubt.

我知道，这些东西后来改善了很多。

And, you know, I know that that got a lot better.

那些负面的声音渐渐变小了，变成了耳语，而自信的声音却变得响亮起来。

Like all that stuff was attenuated, like those voices became whispers and the, you know, the voice of self trust became a shout.

所以这是一种感觉，但话说回来，感觉本来就是生活的一部分，对吧？

So that's one, it really it's a feeling but feeling, I mean, that feelings are life, you know?

所以，站在起跑线上，真的特别棒。

So it's just great to be on the starting line of a race.

比如最近，我跑了一百公里的山地超马，就是不害怕。

Like it's, you know, for me, recent ones, you know, a 100 kilometer trail ultra marathon and just like not be afraid.

不是因为你无聊或者不感兴趣。

Like, it's not that you're bored or not into it.

你其实特别期待，就是不害怕。

Like, you're you're very eager, but you're not afraid.

我知道这会很难，会冒出各种意外，但我就是相信自己能搞定。

You're like, I I know that, like, it's gonna be hard and and surprises are gonna be thrown at me, but I just know I can figure it out.

我知道，只要是我能掌控的事，我绝不会让自己失望。

Like I know I'm not going to let myself down, you know, where the things I control are concerned.

这是第一点，另一点是回望。

So that's one and then the other one is retrospective.

当你回头复盘训练周期和比赛时，如果有教练帮你客观分析，会更有帮助，但你得自己问问：

When you look back and do a postmortem on a training cycle and a race, you know, if you can like, you know, it helps maybe if you have a coach also helping you keep honest about it, but to look back at it and say, you know what?

这儿其实没什么好改进的。

Not much to improve here.

我的意思是，总归能找出点东西来。

I mean, there's always something.

总归能学到点东西。

There's always some lesson.

但我觉得，如果你能把这两点结合起来——一个是赛前和赛中，一个是赛后，那你差不多就到位了。

But I think if you have those two things coupled together, one kind of before and during and the other one after, you know you're close.

马特，我得问个可能有点直接的问题：你都说自己差不多已经征服这项运动了，怎么还跟弗拉格斯塔夫最顶尖的运动员一起训练？

Matt, I'm gonna ask what might be a pretty blunt question, but you're out living training with some of the most elite athletes in Flagstaff after saying that you feel like you've pretty much conquered the sport.

对啊。

Yeah.

既然你觉得自己的潜力已经发挥到极限了，干嘛不干脆放手，把鞋带系紧算了？

Why not say the hell with it and, you know, tie up your laces if you feel like you've already reached your full potential?

是啊。

Yeah.

说实话，确实有人就是这么做的。

I mean, honestly, for some people, that that's exactly what they do.

我总能跟自己对话。

I can always speak to myself.

你知道的。

You know?

其实我的跑步路上经历了不少中断。

Like I've had a lot of interruptions actually in my running journey.

我从11岁跑到17岁，后来累了就放弃了，整整十年没怎么跑。

I ran competitively from age 11 to like 17, then burned out and quit and I didn't really run for a decade.

快30岁的时候才重新捡起来，心里特别遗憾，总觉得要是当初没放弃，说不定能有点成就，结果自己把机会全搞砸了。

Got back into it in my late 20s, like with a lot of regret actually, like, oh man, you know what, I could have been a contender, you know, and I threw it all away.

那时候我特别想追回来，身边还有些高中时一起跑的伙伴，他们没放弃，一直跑到了大学，甚至毕业后还在跑。

And so I was hungry and I, you know, I had peers, you know, people I raced against in high school who didn't quit, who ran through college, who ran post collegiately.

等他们跟我一样快30岁的时候，反而都跑累了，撑不下去了。

And then by the time they were my age, like 28, they were burned out.

但对我而言，情况完全不一样。

And so for me, that wasn't the case.

虽然我有很多遗憾，但我特别渴望，就直接冲了上去。

So though I had a lot of regret, I was very hungry and I just got after it.

但不知怎么的，我总是受伤。

But I, for whatever reason, got injured a lot.

所以每次都会因为重伤被迫中断。

And so I would have big injury interruptions.

我总感觉，这东西一次次从我手里被夺走。

So I always felt like this thing just keeps getting being taken away from me.

每当我重新回来，我还是那么渴望，三十多岁到四十多岁，一直都没放弃。

And like I and so when I got it back, I was still hungry, you know, throughout my 30s, like into my 40s, still hungry.

后来我得了新冠，49岁那年还出现了长新冠，一下子丢了四年。那时候我正拼得正猛，竞技状态好得很，结果却被夺走了，比任何伤病都更彻底。

Then I got COVID and I got long COVID at 49 and then I lost four years and at 49 I was kicking ass, like I was still like really getting after it competitively and it was taken away from me in the like a way that's far worse than any injury.

就是身体突然垮了，四年就这么没了。

You know, just like my health giving out like four years gone.

直到去年，我才终于又慢慢找回了状态。

So only within this the past year I've been able to like get it back again.

每次我重新回到这项运动，都觉得新鲜、不同，而且充满激情。

And what I find like every time I come back to it, it's new, it's different, it's exciting.

所以这种可能性一直都在，确实，随着年龄增长，很多东西都会失去，尤其是像我这样五十多岁的人，再往后六十岁、七十岁呢？

And so that possibility is out there and yeah, lot changes and a lot is taken away from you, especially as you get like, you know, I'm in my fifties, like how about your sixties and your seventies?

随着时间推移，你得找到新的满足感，但我们看到很多人确实做到了——如果你决定收起跑鞋，去打高尔夫，这也没什么好遗憾的。

Like, know, it has to scratch a kind of different itch over time, but we see it happen and it's no tragedy if you decide to, you know, hang up your your, you know, spikes and and take up golf.

如果你真想那样，那当然没问题。

If that's what you want, I mean, fine.

但我觉得，那种可能性依然存在：你回望这段旅程，会发现自己走了这么远，却依然感到兴奋。

But I think that that possibility is out there where you can feel like, wow, I've come a long way in this journey and it still excites me.

它依然能带我去往全新的地方。

It still takes takes me new places.

当你到了退休的年纪，不再从事创作了，你觉得会转去打高尔夫，还是打算一直跑下去？

When you're at a stage in life where you, you know, you're retired, you've given up authoring, do you think you're gonna switch over to that golfing side, or do you see yourself running throughout your life?

说实话，我不觉得自己会跑到生命的最后一刻。

I actually don't see myself, like, you know, running till till till my last day.

说实话，我觉得这不太可能发生在我身上。

I don't think it's really in the cards for me, honestly.

所以我对一切都保持开放的态度。

And, you know, so I'm just open to it.

我最无法接受的，就是还没准备好就被迫放弃跑步。

You know, the thing that I just couldn't live with was like having it taken away from me before I was ready.

我之所以开始跑步，是因为我父亲上世纪八十年代就爱跑步，后来他在黑冰上摔了一跤，摔断了髋骨，没及时就医，结果发展成股骨头坏死，最后只能做髋关节置换。

So, you know, my dad, the reason I became a runner is that my dad was a runner back in the 1980s and his running career came to an end when he fell on black ice, broke his hip, like didn't go to get it checked out, developed necrosis, had to have a hip replacement.

那时候大家普遍觉得，你要是做了髋关节置换，那就别再想跑步了。

And this is a long time ago when it was always like, you're a runner, Well, not anymore.

只要做了髋关节置换，跑步就彻底结束了。

Like if you had a hip replacement.

那是他最后一次跑步，他确实经历了一段失落期，但也没持续太久，后来就慢慢调整过来了。

So like that was the last time he ever ran and he went through like a grieving process but like it didn't last all that long and he was basically fine.

他后来特别爱上了散步。

He got really into walking.

所以啊，这也会成为我的故事。

So yeah, something that'll be my story as well.

说实话，我就是觉得……嗯，就这样吧。

You know, I don't I I I just yeah.

我觉得自己还能轻松跑个十年，跑完也不会觉得遗憾。

I think I'll have, like, a good ten years as a post runner, like, and not missing it.

我觉得你们父子俩都有耐力运动员的心态，你父亲的经历真让人难过，但他能这么快转去散步，真不容易。

I feel like you both have an endurance athlete's mindset, both your your father and I'm sorry for what happened, but to transition that quickly to walking.

而你看到他经历这些，反而更想投身这项运动，

But even on your end, to see him go through that and and think, I want some of that sport.

听起来确实挺有意思的。

That sounds like fun.

对。

Uh-huh.

没错。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

我想稍微理一下时间线，因为我知道你提到过自己曾受长期新冠困扰，一度不得不把跑鞋收起来，但就在那段时间前后，你其实已经开始和全球顶尖运动员一起训练，为打破个人最佳成绩做准备，之后在2023年又暂时歇了一阵。

So I I'd love to draw a bit of a timeline here because I know you talked about how you suffered some long COVID and maybe had to tie back the sneakers for a little, but I think somewhere in there, just before you were actually training with some of the best athletes on the planet to achieve a new personal best before taking another bit of a break in 2023.

这些事到底是怎么衔接上的呢？

So where does that all fit together?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

2017年的时候，其实准确说是前一年，2016年底，我认识了一位叫本·罗萨里奥的先生，他在弗拉格斯塔夫创办了HOKA NAZ精英跑步队，我跟他聊了聊，说服他让我以普通人的身份加入队伍，和他们一起训练。

So in in 2017, well, was actually the the previous year in '20 late twenty sixteen, I talked a gentleman by the way, by the name of Ben Rosario, who had founded the HOKA NAZ Elite Professional Running Team here in Flagstaff, talked him into letting me basically embed myself with the team as like an everyman.

那时候我46岁，真正开始训练是在2017年。

I was 46 years old, so it was 2017 when it actually happened.

他答应了。

He said yes.

那时候我和我妻子住在加利福尼亚。

So yeah, my wife and I lived in California at the time.

我们夏天在弗拉格斯塔夫待了十三周。

We came out to Flagstaff for thirteen weeks in the summer.

那段时间我完全在进行一场全程马拉松的训练，当时我已经46岁了，但说实话，就算我26岁的时候，也远不如队里那些真正的职业选手。

It was like an entire marathon build and I was 46 years old then and you know, even when I was 26, like I was nowhere near as good as the the real pros on this team.

我完全不在一个水平线上，但这正是我想达到的目的。

So I was way out of my depth, but that was kind of the idea.

你知道，我就是特别热爱跑步，就像我之前说的，马拉松一直是我心里过不去的坎。

Like, you know, I just, you know, I loved running so much that and I, like I said, I'd had, like the marathon in particular was my bugbear like forever.

我一直想跑进2小时40分，可每次都在门口打转，就是进不去。

I wanted to run under two forty and I just kept knocking at the door and not making it.

主要原因是我总是没法保持健康足够长的时间。

I think largely because I just couldn't stay healthy long enough.

所以我跑到这儿来，想彻底投入这项运动，像年轻顶尖选手那样全身心生活，那真是一段难忘的经历。

And so I came out here just to like go all in for the sport in a way I never had, you know, to truly live like a young elite gazelle and it was an incredible experience.

不管结果如何，那十三周都是我一生中最棒的时光，因为我热爱跑步，而且我给自己定了规矩，让跑步成为这十三周里生活的唯一重心，身边全是顶尖跑者，接受顶级教练的指导，拥有全部资源和支持。

Regardless of how it ended, they were the best 13 of my life because I love running and I just had I had given myself permission to make running just the center of my universe for thirteen weeks and to be surrounded by all these stallions and to be coached at that level and have all the resources and support.

那段经历太棒了。

It was incredible.

后来结果其实也很好。

Then it actually did end well.

我居然跑出了个人最快纪录，这简直让人震惊，毕竟那是我第四十一场马拉松，过去九年我都没能比个人最好成绩快上八分钟。

Yeah, I very shockingly ran my fastest marathon ever which is saying something because it was like my forty first marathon and I hadn't come within eight minutes of my PR in nine years.

我压根没想过这能实现，但真的发生了，跑完之后我只想把这份体验分享出去。

So like I truly didn't even think that was possible but it happened and I just came away from it like wanting to share that.

我想，为什么只有我才能拥有这样的经历呢？

I'm like why should only I be should I be the only runner who gets to experience something like this?

于是我就写了这本书，叫《追逐梦想》，还在这里的弗拉格斯塔夫创办了Dream Run训练营。

So So that's what inspired well, I wrote a book about it called Running the Dream and then, created Dream Run Camp, here in Flagstaff.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你把自己称为普通人还挺有意思的，毕竟你可不是普通人。

And I think it's kind of interesting to refer to yourself as an everyman because I think you're no slouch.

那次训练结束后，你在芝加哥马拉松跑出了多少时间？

What was the, the time you ran at the Chicago marathon after that training period?

两小时三十九分多一点。

Two two hours thirty nine minutes and change.

相当了不起。

Pretty impressive.

你在书里提到过，要学会给自己授权，全身心投入。

And you talk in your book a little bit about this sort of giving yourself permission to go all in.

但我觉得对很多听众，包括我自己来说，完全全身心投入并不总是现实的，比如飞到弗拉格斯塔夫或博尔德，

But I think for a lot of people listening, including myself, it's not always feasible to go completely all in in the sense of, you know, flying out to Flagstaff or Boulder and

没错。

Yep.

把生活全部围绕跑步来安排。

Revolving your life around running.

那么对于有工作或者家庭的人来说，还能不能达到精通的水平？还是说必须把全部人生都献给跑步？

So in the context of somebody who has a job and or family, is it still possible to achieve mastery, or do you have to devote your life to running?

我觉得是可以的。

I I think it is.

我的定义是这样的，这个问题问得真好。

I mean, by my definition, and that's a very good question.

我确实反复想过这个问题。

It's definitely one I've like mulled over.

我在弗拉格斯塔夫那十三周的夏季夜跑训练，总共就持续了十三周，转眼就结束了。

Know, my thirteen week midsummer night stream here in Flagstaff was only thirteen weeks and it ended all too quickly.

之后我就回到了加州的日常生活。

And I went back to my regular life in California.

我没法把高海拔的环境带回去。

I couldn't take the high altitude with me.

我也带不走我的队友，还有本·罗萨里奥。

I couldn't take my teammates or Ben Rosario with me.

我不得不留下很多东西，但我还是想尽可能多地带走，结果发现能带走的其实不少。

I had to leave a lot of it behind, but I did want to carry as much of it as I could and I found out that was actually a lot.

我觉得，所谓精通，其实就是充分利用你手头的限制，对吧？对我们大多数人来说，这种限制就是天赋。

And I think like, I mean, the essence of mastery is that, I mean, you are making the most of your constraints, you know, so for a lot of us that's simply talent.

想象一下，你生来就是个富豪的孩子，不用工作，又热爱跑步，只想看看自己能走到哪一步——那时候，你最大的限制其实就是基因，因为别的限制都不存在了，对吧？

Like, you know, imagine you were just like born a billionaire's child and you didn't have to work and you loved running and you just wanted to see what you could do, you know, like then like it's like, well, it's your it's your it's your genes that are your main constraint because like there's no other constraints, right?

钱不是问题，时间也不缺，但你依然会遇到瓶颈。

Money is no object, time is not a problem, but you're still running up against the constraint.

所以，就算你拥有全世界的时间、金钱和资源，也不代表你就能进奥运会。

So just because you have all the time and money and resources in the world doesn't mean you're going to go to the Olympics.

我觉得，我们这些想知道自己能走到什么地步的运动员，其实一直在自己的限制里打拼，不管这些限制是什么。对我们这样的人来说，这些限制更现实、更具体。

So I think that's what all of us are doing all the time as athletes who want to see what we're capable of is working within our constraints, whatever they may be And for every man and women like us, you know, those constraints are more practical in nature.

你当然希望，要是能有更多时间训练，表现会更好，对吧？

Like, yeah, you know, would you like perform better if you had more time to train?

当然，但那并不是精通的真正含义。

Sure, but that's not really what mastery is about.

掌握精髓在于掌控你能掌控的部分，所以我认为，每个运动员都有这种可能。

Mastery is about controlling what you can control and so yeah, I think it's a possibility that's open to any athlete.

我们之前聊过，Lagoon的定制枕头比大卖场卖的普通枕头舒服多了，但定制枕头的好处可不止是舒适。

You've heard us talk before about how much more comfortable custom pillows from Lagoon are compared to pillows from big box retailers, but comfort isn't the only improvement you'll see with a custom pillow.

定制枕头最大的优势之一，就是能帮你保持凉爽。

One One of the biggest benefits of a custom pillow is that it helps to keep you cool.

春天马上就到了，这一点尤其重要。

This is especially important with spring being just around the corner.

科学研究已经明确指出，枕头调节体温的能力，对获得深度、不间断的睡眠至关重要。

The scientific literature is clear that your pillow's ability to regulate your body temperature plays a critical role in getting deep, uninterrupted sleep.

有了定制枕头，你可以确保它既透气，又能贴合你的睡姿。

With a custom pillow, you're able to ensure you have both breathable material and one that contours to your sleeping position.

这两点都能提升空气流通，让你更凉爽，睡得更深、更久。

Both of these increase air circulation and ventilation, keeping you cooler and in deep sleep for longer.

再也不用半夜醒过来，头发都汗湿了。

No more waking up with a sweaty head.

这又是我们喜欢Lagoon枕头的另一个原因。

It's just another reason why we love the pillows designed by Lagoon.

Lagoon专门设计适合跑者和运动员的枕头，帮助他们更好地睡眠和恢复。

Lagoon specializes in making pillows designed specifically for runners and athletes to help them optimize their sleep and recovery.

如果你想看看专为你定制的枕头能带来多大的改变，就去lagoonsleep.com/top吧。

If you wanna see the dramatic effect a pillow designed just for you can be, head to lagoonsleep.com/top.

然后做个他们那套只需两分钟的睡眠测试，根据你的睡姿、体型等信息，帮你找到最适合的Lagoon枕头。

Then take their awesome two minute sleep quiz that matches you with the Lagoon pillow that's perfect for you based on sleep position, body size, and more.

另外，结账时使用代码top，还能再享八五折优惠。

Plus, if you use the code top at checkout, you'll also save 15% off your purchase.

再次提醒，网址是lagoonsleep.com/top。

Again, that's lagoonsleep.com/top.

除了训练方法的问题，缺铁是导致运动表现不佳最常见的原因之一。

Outside of training deficiencies, low iron is one of the most common reasons for poor results during workouts and races.

研究显示，近56%的男性跑者和86%的女性跑者都因缺铁而影响了运动表现。

Research indicates that almost fifty six percent of male runners and eighty six percent of female runners suffer from an iron deficiency that hampers performance.

光靠吃含铁丰富的食物或者用传统铁补充剂的问题在于，铁元素本来就很难被身体吸收和利用。

The problem with only eating iron rich foods or using traditional iron supplements is that iron is notoriously difficult for the body to absorb and utilize.

事实上，动物性食物中的铁只有大约百分之二十五能被吸收，而植物性来源的铁吸收率更低，只有百分之十七或更少。

In fact, only about twenty five percent of the dietary iron found in animal sources is absorbed and only 17% or less of iron from plant sources is absorbed.

但MAS Iron找到了解决吸收难题的方法，确保你能获得维持健康和提升表现所需的铁元素。

But MAS Iron has found a way to combat these absorption issues to ensure you can get the iron you need for health and performance.

我自己就曾因铁摄入不足而困扰，后来发现MAS Iron不仅有效，还特别容易消化。

I've suffered myself with getting enough iron and found that MAS Iron is not only effective, but easy to digest too.

它把吸收效率最高的元素铁，搭配经过临床验证的助吸收成分，让这款铁补充剂在市场上独树一帜。

By combining the most efficiently absorbed form of elemental iron with clinically proven ingredients to aid in absorption, MAS Iron performs like no other iron product on the market.

临床研究显示，MAS Iron的配方能将铁的吸收率提升四倍，生物利用率增加百分之三十，同时把肠胃不适减少一半。

In fact, clinical research has shown the combination of ingredients in mass iron can quadruple absorption and increase bioavailability by 30%, all while reducing GI issues by 50%.

想亲自看看研究数据和实际效果？去massedge.com/iron看看吧。

Check out the research and the results for yourself at massedge.com/iron.

网址是masedge.com/iron。

That's masedge.com/iron.

另外，RunnersConnect 的粉丝在任何购买时都能自动享受八折优惠。

Plus, RunnersConnect fans will automatically save 20% on any purchase.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们排除了天赋、时间或资源作为区分精通与追求精通的关键因素，

So if we're ruling out talent and or time and resources as the key distinction between mastery and and sort of that pursuit or chase of mastery.

在与那些已经达到顶尖水平的运动员合作，或者你自己感觉已经发挥出全部潜力之后，如果要概括一下，有哪些关键因素能帮助人们更上一层楼？

After working with elite athletes who have reached that level or even for yourself feeling like you've achieved your own full potential, if you had to generalize, what are some of those key differentiators that help people get to the next level?

对。

Yeah.

天啊，这问题问得好。

Man, another good question.

没错。

Yeah.

确实有几个关键点。

So, there are a few.

我想强调的第一点是热情。

The ones I would highlight are, number one, passion.

你就得一直对它保持热爱。

You know, just like you have to stay in love with it.

当然，你不一定非得这样，但要想发挥全部潜力，你就得真的爱它。

I mean, you don't have to, but like to reach your full potential, you have to stay in love with it.

就像我说的，如果你没了兴趣去打高尔夫，那也没什么大不了的。

Like I said, no tragedy if you fall out of love and switch to golf.

但那其实是个挺好的故事，对吧？

But that's kind of a good news story, right?

你得真的觉得有趣才行。

Like you kind of have to be having fun.

你得是真心想要，而不是单纯靠自律硬撑。

You have to like genuinely want it versus, you know, just like disciplining yourself.

你就会发现，那些不仅登上巅峰、还能长期保持的人，都是这样。

And so that's what you see, especially the athletes who don't just reach the top, but stay there.

这一直都是关键所在。

That is always the story.

说到底，这跟任何关系都一样，你得一直维持那份热情，而具体怎么做到这一点，会随着时间变化，就像关系一样。

It's just, it's like any relationship, honestly, you know, you have to keep the spark alive and that can, you know, how you do that can change over time, just like relationships do.

所以，保持渴望和乐趣是一方面，另一方面呢，我们真正关注的是谁在长时间里进步最大——那些善于学习的人进步最快。

So yeah, just, you know, keeping the hunger there and the enjoyment is one and then the other one is, you know, those who make them what we're really looking at is like who improves the most over time and it's the learners that improve the most over time.

我特别欣赏的一些运动员，据说那句名言是约翰·杜威说的，但其实这说法并不可靠，不过它确实符合他的思想。

Athletes who I love the apparently it's an apocryphal John Dewey quote, not a genuine one, but it's consistent with his philosophy.

他说的是，我们不是从经验中学习，而是从反思经验中学习，这正是关键所在。

The line is we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on experience and like that's a differentiator.

你可以有两个跑者，每周都跑五十英里，持续五年，经历的总里程一样，但其中一个人从每次跑步中学到的东西可能多得多，作为教练，我天天都能看到这种情况。

You know like you could have two runners who run 50 miles a week for five years and they don't, so they have the same amount of experience but one of them could be learning quite a bit more from the experience they're having and as a coach I see that all the time.

有些运动员天生就是爱学习的，另一些则需要有人推动，才能学会反思和成长。

So like some athletes are just like, they're they're just learners and others need to be, like, encouraged, to learn.

所以，这两点特别重要。

And, yeah, so those are two big ones.

我觉得很多人其实会自我筛选，因为如果你在听这个播客，或者挑一本关于挖掘潜能的书，那你大概率本身就是个愿意学习的人。

I feel like there's a bit of self filtering going on because if you're somebody who's listening to this podcast or picking out a a book on reaching your full potential, you're you're probably leaning towards the side of being a learner.

没错。

Yep.

确实如此。

Yeah.

但即便如此，那些具备这些特质的运动员——我觉得这些特质是达成真正精通所必需的——他们也还是会给自己设限。

But but, you know, but even so, you know, like, even athletes who have those traits, which I think kind of are essential to achieving like true mastery, I mean, even they self limit in some way.

我们都这么做。

Like we all do it.

这再正常不过了。

It's just human.

所以说，耐力运动里所谓的完美，其实主要是清除你自己制造的那些障碍。

Yeah, so like perfection is really, you know, the path to, you know, perfection in endurance sports is, like, mostly about removing the obstacles you yourself create.

你只需要把那些杂七杂八的东西清理掉，让过程自然发生就行。

You you just have to, like, get the junk out of the way and let the process happen.

你觉得在通往精通的路上，最大的障碍是什么？

What what did you consider your biggest junk on that path to achieving mastery?

这个问题我也反复想过很多次。

This is also something I've thought a lot a lot about.

有一条，我肯定曾经自我设限，而且当时根本没意识到。

One, for sure, in terms of ways I self limited, and I was not conscious of these, you know, always in the moment.

只有过了一段时间，回头看看自己走过的弯路，才发现其中一条是缺乏耐心。

Like it was only after some time passed, you know, when I kind of looked back at my missteps, one of them was impatience.

这挺奇怪的，因为我是个耐力运动员，也是个作家，这两件事都特别需要耐心，可我天性就是没耐心。

Am which is weird because like I'm an endurance athlete, I'm a writer, both those pursuits really demand patience but like by nature, I am not patient.

所以在训练想把马拉松跑进2小时40分的过程中，我总是急着想快点见效，一遍又一遍地犯同样的错——其实一点都不意外，我老婆要是在这儿，她准会说：‘对啊，马特开车急，超市排队也急，上班更是坐不住，他哪儿都急。'

And so in the process of just training to try to break two forty in the marathon or whatever, I would get impatient and I would try to hurry the process and I did it again and again and again and no shock because my wife would tell you if she were in the room like, yeah, Matt's like impatient in traffic, in supermarkets, in the workplace, Matt's just impatient.

所以他在跑步上因为这性格自我限制，也就没什么奇怪的了。

So no shocker that he's self limiting through that trait as a runner.

还有一个，我觉得和我性格里的强烈倾向有关，那就是我容易贪心。

Another one which is I think related just all related to my intensity as a person is that I would get greedy.

所以我总是不断抬高目标，一旦训练进展顺利，我就觉得原来的计划太保守了。

So I would keep raising the bar and like if training was going well, I'd be like, oh, well, I think my original goal is too soft.

得定个更有挑战性的目标才行。

I need to go for a more challenging goal.

结果就这样一再拔高，最后把自己搞垮了。

And then I would just keep raising the bar until I blew myself up.

第三个问题，就像我说的，我确实反复思考过。

And then a third one is, like I said, I've thought a lot about this.

我不知道该不该叫高风险承受力，但我就是特别喜欢冒险。

Have, I don't know if you call it like a high risk tolerance, but I kind of like crave risk.

我靠冒险才能发挥出最佳状态，所以我会做那些其他跑者根本不敢做的事。

Thrive on risk so I would take risks, that other runners I discovered would would not take.

我想这大概就是我老受伤的原因。

And I think that's one of the reasons I got injured a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

听你把那些挫折都归结为道德品质，我觉得特别有意思。

I find it really interesting listening to what you consider your setbacks that you define them all as almost moral qualities.

我本来以为你会说，比如我总是一开始跑得太快，或者太盯着数据了。

I was expecting an answer more like, you know, I always started my workouts too fast or I focus too much on the numbers.

但你提到的这些个人特质，你觉得很多跑者也都是这样吗？

But but the very personal qualities, do you do you think that's the case for a lot of runners?

是的。

Yes.

其实有一句话出自小说《一个人的威力》——心智才是真正的运动员。

I mean, yeah the there's a line in the novel The Power of One, the mind is the athlete.

这句话也是北卡罗来纳州一个专业跑者团体‘Zap耐力队’的座右铭，我特别喜欢这句话，因为我觉得追求运动中的卓越，本质上是一场全人的旅程。

Yeah that was that's the motto of the Zap Endurance team in North Carolina, an enclave of professional runners and I love that little mantra, the mind is the athlete because I really think it is like pursuing excellence in sport, it is a whole person journey.

是你整个人的投入。

It's all of you.

你在生活里能让你前进的那些东西，同样也会在运动中帮到你。

Like, whatever it is that enables you in life outside of sport is going to enable you within sport.

你生活中任何让你在人际关系、工作或日常琐事中受限制、退缩的内在因素，其实都是同一批问题。

Whatever it is within yourself that limits you and holds you back in relationships, the workplace, chores, all of it is gonna be the same stuff.

你只有一颗心，得用它来应对所有事情。

Like you only have one mind to apply to everything.

它可能会在不同情境下以不同方式表现出来，看你往哪个方向使力，但归根结底，你还是那个你。

So it'll manifest in slightly different ways, you know, based on which direction you're channeling it, but you're still you in every context.

所以这一切，其实都始于我自己的运动经历。

So this is, you know, it all begins with like my own athletic journey.

对我来说，成为最好的运动员，和成为最好的自己，根本就是一回事。

And for me, becoming the best athlete I could be was inseparable from becoming the best version of myself, like as a human being.

早年我在高中时崩溃，是因为我把自己当成一个懦夫。

Like early on, I mean the reason I burnt out in high school was that I viewed myself as a coward.

我是州里顶尖的跑者之一，本来有机会拿个人州冠军，却始终没拿到，因为我总觉得，自己没像其他选手那样，真正拼到极限，我看得出来。

Like I was one of the best runners in my state and I perhaps could have won an individual state title that I never won because I just didn't feel like I was willing to go as deep into the pain cave as other athletes were and I thought I could see it.

那个人跑得没我快，可他赢了我，就是因为比我勇敢。

It's just like this person isn't faster than me but this person beat me and it's because they're braver than I am.

所以当我二十多岁后期重新开始跑步时，那就像压在我心头的一块石头。

So when I got back into running in my late twenties, like that was a monkey on my back.

我想成为一个勇敢的选手。

Like I want to become a brave competitor.

我想诚实地看待自己，觉得自己是个勇敢的人，但当时我不这么认为，于是我有意识地去锻炼这一点，感觉进步很明显，成绩也在提升，但那几乎只是副产品——我真正想做的，是通过跑步让自己成为一个更好的人。

I want to see myself honestly as a brave man and I didn't think I was one and so I worked on that very consciously and I felt like I made a lot of progress and I could see it in the numbers, my numbers were getting better but that was almost like an after effect of, like, just trying to grow as a person through running.

这些会带到跑步中的个人特质，你是在训练中成长的，还是受外界因素影响更大？

And to what extent for these personal traits that carry over to running do you grow through your training versus external factors?

就拿你提到的变得勇敢来说，你是靠不断完成艰难的训练、用你认为勇敢的方式去执行来突破的，还是有其他外部方法可以培养这种能力？

So using the example you gave of, say, becoming braver, do you push through that just by going through a bunch of difficult workouts and trying to execute them in a style you deem to be brave, or are there other things you can do outside to develop that skill?

我觉得对我，可能对大多数人来说，最关键的因素是必须有明确的意图。

I actually think the number one factor for me and probably for for most people is, like, it has to be a very conscious intention.

如果你去问一群跑者：你觉得你能比现在更坚韧吗？

You know, like if you poll a group of runners, you know, hey, do you think you could be tougher than you are?

大多数人都会点头。

Like most hands are gonna go up.

你总觉得，要是自己能更坚韧一点，跑步表现肯定会更好。

It's like, you think you would benefit as a runner if you if you got tougher than you are.

结果呢，大多数人都会点头同意。

It's like, oh, most hands go up again.

但接下来第三个问题就来了：那你具体做了什么？

And then then the third question is, like, what are you doing about it?

结果一片沉默。

And it's crickets.

对大多数运动员来说，这不过是个模糊的念头，比如‘注意配速’之类的。

You know it's like for most for most athletes it's just like a vague kind of yeah like pacing.

天哪，我又把配速搞砸了。

Oh shit, I blew my pacing again.

唉，也许下次运气会好一点吧。

You know maybe I'll be luckier next time.

话说回来，你离下一场赛事还有十八周呢。

Well I mean shoot you got you got you got eighteen weeks till the next a race.

也许你可以好好练练配速。

Maybe you could work on your pacing.

对我而言，关键就在于这种主动意识——你不需要一开始就全想明白怎么变得更强。

And so and and for me, just that intentionality, like, you don't have to have it all figured out, like how you get tougher.

我也没想明白。

I didn't.

事实上，对我来说，那感觉就像一道根本跨不过去的坎。

Like, in fact, to me, it felt like an impossible barrier.

你知道吗，比赛时一到关键时刻，明明知道自己还能再撑一点，可就是不想往深里逼自己，那时候真觉得那道墙怎么也撞不破。

You know, when I got when I like in, you know, the heat of competition, when I felt myself just not willing to go deeper, even though I knew I could, it felt like an immovable barrier.

就是觉得自己实在撑不住了，太难了。

It's like, I can't, you know, it's just, it's too much.

可即便如此，我还是告诉自己：这就是我的目标。

Nevertheless, I just, I'm like, well, that's my goal.

我要做这件事，办法总会有的。

That's what I'm gonna do and I'll figure it out.

但关键是这种心态，我说的就是有志者事竟成，如果你只是等着运气降临，那它不会自己发生；但像我二十多岁参加那些比赛时，我就根本不在乎什么个人最好成绩、时间或者名次。

But sort of like the intention, know, it's the where there's a will there's a way is what I'm saying like, know, if it's just like, hope it happens along the way, it's not going to happen but if it's actually, know, for me in a lot of those races I did in my late 20s, like I forgot about like, you know, PRs or time or what place I finished in.

我会完全凭主观来评价自己的表现。

Like I would grade my performance entirely subjectively.

你就问自己，你是不是已经拼尽了全力？

It's just like, close to 100% of what you had to give did you leave out there?

我对自己的要求特别严格。

And I would be pretty ruthless about it.

一旦没做到，我就狠狠责备自己，一次又一次，但说白了，那几乎就是靠蛮力硬撑。

Like I would take myself to task when I fell short and I did again and again and again, but like it was just almost like brute force, honestly.

因为我觉得，其实我们每个人都有韧性。

Because I think we all, the thing is, I think we are all tough.

问题不在于变得更强韧，而在于怎么把这份韧性用对地方。

It's not a matter of getting tougher, it's a matter of channeling your toughness.

所以你根本不需要什么捷径就能达到那个状态。

And so it's no wonder that you don't necessarily need a hack to get there.