跑步如何改变了我们对女性的一切了解

大家好，各位跑者。

Hello, fellow runners.

我是你们的主持人芬·穆拉森，欢迎收听《RUN2THETOP》播客，每一期节目都旨在帮你成为更出色的跑者。

I'm your host, Finn Mullanson, and this is the RUN2THETOP podcast, the podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode.

本节目由RunnersConnect.net的专业教练团队制作与运营，那里汇集了互联网上最优质的跑步资讯，还有适合各类跑者、各种预算的训练计划。

We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

今天我们邀请到玛吉·默滕斯，和她聊聊她的新书《更好、更快、更远：跑步如何改变了我们对女性的认知》。

Maggie Mertens joins the show to talk about her book Better Faster Farther How Running Changed Everything We Know About Women.

在一场内容广泛的对话中，我们结合了近期女性田径领域的一些热点新闻，比如三月份的Lululemon FURTHER赛事、贾斯敏·巴黎在2024年巴克利马拉松创纪录的完赛，以及克莱尔·班瓦尔特在2023年全年多项耐力赛事中的出色表现。

In a wide ranging discussion, we tie in some of the exciting recent news on the female side of the sport including the Lululemon FURTHER event back in March, Jasmin Paris's historic finish at the twenty twenty four Barkley Marathons, and Claire Bannwarth's dominant multi day performances across all of 2023.

我们还把这些案例与更广泛的社会议题联系起来——探讨学术界、体育组织以及其他文化机构如何推动并继续改善女性运动员的参与环境与支持体系。

And we link all of these to discussions around the progress and the work to be done in academic, sporting, and other cultural institutions across society that play significant roles in making past times like running more accessible to and supportive of female athletes.

我相信你们一定会喜欢这场对话。

I think you will really enjoy this conversation.

玛吉，非常高兴你能来到《RUN2THETOP》播客。

Maggie, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the RUNTOTHETOP podcast.

你今天怎么样？

How are you doing today?

我挺好的。

I'm good.

非常感谢你邀请我来。

Thanks so much for having me.

能请你来真的很开心。

It's a pleasure to have you here.

说来也巧。

And it's funny.

我读这本书的时候，正好我身边也发生了几件挺重要的事。

As I was reading this book, there were a few other I'll call them landmark events that were were happening in in my world.

第一件是我有个朋友参加了Lululemon的FURTHER活动。

The the first was I had a friend who participated in the Lululemon FURTHER event.

你听说过这个活动吗？

Were you familiar with that?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

你有什么看法？

What were your thoughts?

哦，我的意思是，太棒了。

Oh, just I mean, incredible.

我特别喜欢在Instagram上看到它出现。

I just loved seeing it pop up, you know, on my Instagram.

我关注的很多女性都参与了，或者发帖讨论这件事，看到这样一场对女性耐力跑的庆祝，真的让人很振奋。

So many of the women that I follow were either doing it or you know, posting about it and to see just this celebration of women's endurance running was really exciting.

是的

Yeah.

我有个朋友住在盐湖城，叫莉亚·英格林，她在六天内跑了四百英里，简直不可思议。我本人更多参与的是越野跑和超长跑，你在书里也稍微提到了这一点，我觉得特别有意思——随着距离越来越长，越来越多的研究表明，女性的表现开始超越男性。

I have a friend based here in Salt Lake City, Leah Yingling who ended up doing 400 miles over the six days, which was incredible and it's actually I'm more involved in the trail running, ultra running side of the sport and you do touch a bit on this in the book, which I found really cool, that as the distance gets longer, there's a lot of emerging research out there that, I mean, women start to get better than men.

是的，完全没错。

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

我觉得正是这一点让我意识到，跑步会是一个特别合适的框架，来承载我想探讨的那些想法，因为这种现象其实经常发生。

I think that's one of the things that made me realize that running was gonna be a really great frame for this book and the kind of ideas that I really wanted to write about where, you know, that's a thing that we see regularly.

你不会看到男女在奥运短跑项目里对决吧？

Like you don't see an Olympic race between men and women, right?

在百米或短距离田径赛里，女性不可能赢过男性，但像贾斯敏·巴黎直接赢得脊椎越野赛冠军，还有其他女性经常击败男性选手，这种事情确实屡见不鲜。

Where women are gonna beat men in short distance track or anything but to see, you know, Jasmin Paris win the spine race outright, to see these women who are beating men and that it happens fairly regularly, you know.

而且随着越野跑和超长跑越来越流行，参与的女性也越来越多——这本身也是过去不平等的一部分，毕竟以前真正参与这些赛事的女性少之又少。

And I think as too, as ultras and trail running have become a little bit more popular and more women are participating cause that's been the other part of the inequality there, right, is fewer women of course have been active really in those ultras until more recently.

现在数据多了，现象也更常见了，我们发现跑步中有一个领域，其实不需要像其他项目那样严格按性别划分，这真的很值得思考。

So now that we do have more data, now that we've seen it a bit more to be able to see that there's a space in running where we don't have to really divide by gender in the same way is really interesting, think.

我也这么觉得，我再举几个例子吧。

I think so too and you know, I'll name drop a couple more.

我很高兴你提到了克莱尔·班瓦思。

I love that you mentioned Claire Bannwarth.

她在我们这项运动里人气超高，2023年表现特别出色，最让人佩服的是她的恢复能力。

She's very much a fan favorite in our sport, had an incredible 2023, and her ability I think the most impressive thing was her ability to bounce.

你知道的，她刚跑完两三百英里的比赛，才过两周就完全恢复了，接着又直接赢下下一个多日赛事，简直不可思议。

Like, she would do that, you know, as you know, she would do a 200, 300 mile race, and then, like, two weeks later, have already bounced back and was winning the next multi day event outright, it was incredible.

她确实太厉害了，我碰上克莱尔也算是运气好。

Yeah, she was amazing and that was really luck that I came across Claire.

我2023年1月去看了脊柱赛，因为我早就想写这个比赛，之前从没亲眼见过一场越野跑赛事。既然我知道要写贾斯敏·巴黎的胜利，那场胜利对女性跑者来说意义重大，我就想亲眼去看看。

I went to the spine race in 2023 in January because I knew I wanted to write about it, I had never seen an ultra race in real life and after knowing that I wanted to write about Jasmin Paris' win because it was so such a huge landmark I think for women runners.

我想知道她赢的到底是个什么样的比赛，现场看真的太震撼了。

I wanted to go see what it what it was like, like what is this race that she won and to see it in real life is absolutely fascinating.

简直冷得要命，看着一点都不舒服。

I mean, just freezing cold and does not look fun.

简直疯狂到不行。

Like it looks just really crazy.

克莱尔是第一个完赛的女性，当时她正好在那儿闲逛，我就过去和她聊了聊。后来跟进她那一年的其他表现，真的让我震惊——她看起来是个特别娇小、温柔的姑娘，跟我聊天时说的一句话彻底颠覆了我的认知：‘我喜欢跑步，但我其实跑得很慢。’

And that and Claire was the first woman in and she happened to be you know, just sort of hanging out and I went over and talked to her and then to be able to kind of like follow along, yeah, what she did the rest of the year was shocking like and you know, she's this sweet, know, very petite woman who talks to me and what she said that really blew my mind was like, oh yeah, like I love running but I'm actually very slow.

我不是那种速度快的选手，但我就是爱跑，只想一直跑下去。

Like I'm not like a fast runner but I love running and I just want to keep running.

我觉得这种态度特别有吸引力，对吧？

And I thought that was also really, it's kind of appealing, right?

很多人因为公路赛太看重成绩，觉得跑步就是为了比谁快，所以对跑步失去了兴趣。

For people who maybe are turned off of running road races because they're so focused on time and focused on like, this is this is what it's for.

是吧？

Right?

跑步好像就是为了证明自己多快。

It's to like show how fast you are.

但超马完全就是另一回事。

And really like ultras are just such a different beast.

对。

Yeah.

最后一个问题想问你，我当时感觉就像被闪电击中了一样。

The last one I'll throw out to you and I I was just it was like lightning striking.

那是我第一次以媒体身份参加巴利马拉松赛。当时我正巧在那儿，看到贾斯敏·巴黎冲刺跑过比格科夫营地，触碰终点门，创造了历史。

It was my first year I got to be a member of the media at the Barkley Marathons this year, so I I happened to be there as Jasmin Paris was sprinting up the Big Cove Campground there, touching the gate, making history.

我看过很多体育赛事，我觉得抛开近因偏差不谈，

I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of sporting I I think it might have been the and recency bias set aside.

那大概是我见证过的最精彩的体育时刻，也是最动人的人类时刻之一。

It was probably one of the greatest sporting moments, human moments I've ever witnessed.

太不可思议了。

It was incredible.

而且那场比赛，我相信你在研究中也发现了，它的神秘感以及人们关注它的原因在于，在整场比赛的历史上，从来没有女性完赛者。当时有很多猜测，甚至有人断言这根本不可能发生。

And that race, I'm sure as you found in your research, like, it's the part of the mystique around it and and part of the human interest around it is that, you know, there hadn't been a woman a female finisher for, you know, the whole entire history of the race, and there was all these speculations and sort of like condemnations around like, it's never gonna happen.

大家觉得，根据数据计算，根据历史成绩分析，这绝对不可能实现。

Like we've done the math, we've run the numbers, we've just looked at the data, it's not gonna happen.

所以，Jasmin 竟然打破了这种所谓的‘科学定论’，成功完赛，这真的很酷。

So for Jasmin to supposedly defy science and get it done was pretty cool.

确实很了不起。

It was pretty great.

真的非常精彩。

It's pretty great.

我觉得那部分更多是炒作，不完全是科学，但正是这种氛围反而激励了贾斯敏回来挑战。

I mean, I do think a lot of that was kind of like not exactly science and a little bit more baity than we may want to but I also think that's what really brought Jasmin back.

我跟她聊过巴克利赛事，她说自己觉得这事非做不可。

I did speak with her about the Barkley and she was she was kind of she felt like okay, this is like a thing I need to do.

我问她会不会再参加脊椎赛，她直接说：不做了，我已经完成了。

Like when I asked her if she was ever going to do spine raise again, she's kind of like no, I did that, you know?

她这种人特别在意别人说她做不到，这挺有意思的，因为她平时性格特别安静。

And so, she does seem to be the kind of person that's really driven by like you know, being told she's she can't do something and that's really interesting because she also has this very you know, quiet demeanor.

她看起来并不是为了证明女性能行才去参赛的，但她的行动本身就已经说明了一切。

Like she doesn't seem like, I'm just out here to like prove something about women but she has just through her actions, right?

天啊，我真羡慕你亲在现场，她冲过终点线后立刻倒下的画面太动人了，尤其是想到她刚跑完脊椎赛，看起来根本没多累，连脸都 hardly 红。

And yeah, oh my gosh, I can't I'm very jealous you were there because those images of her crossing the finish line and just like immediately collapsing and so moving especially because her at the end of the spine race, she looks like and like no big deal, you know, she barely looks flushed really.

但说实话，她真是个榜样，要不是她去挑战这些赛事，很多人根本不知道什么是脊柱赛，也不知道巴克利马拉松是什么，是她用行动打破了这些偏见。

But yeah, it's she's an inspiration and the fact that you know, I don't think most people didn't know what the spine race was or what the Barkley Marathons are, right, without her doing them and kind of like proving these things wrong.

所以我觉得另一件令人振奋的事是，她让更多女性跑者注意到了这些赛事。

So I think that's another exciting part of it is also bringing them to an audience more women runners.

我觉得我一直在想的一点是，直到现在，无论是在医疗、教育、体育机构，还是整个社会文化中，都有太多力量在阻碍女性——从是否敢参与运动，到能不能坚持下去，再到能否取得成功，方方面面都在跟她们作对。

I think one of the things I'm driving towards, because you know, read the book and one of the big takeaways for me was even until now there's been a lot of forces, whether it's in medical institutions, educational institutions, sporting institutions, the culture, there's been a lot of forces working against women, both whether it's feeling comfortable in sport, even wanting to be in sport in the first place, to stay in sport, to be successful, like everything has been working against them.

当你看到像贾斯敏·巴黎这样的人，还有克莱尔、宝拉·拉德克里夫，这些个体的瞬间，究竟在多大程度上为未来创造了机会和改变呢？

When you look at people like Jasmin Paris and you see this FURTHER event and Claire, Paula Radcliffe, like, how how important are these individual, like, single person moments for creating a lot of opportunity and change in the years to come?

你怎么看这个问题？

Like how do you think about that?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我觉得这些时刻真的非常重要，因为写这本书的过程中，我学到的一点是：很多关于女性跑步、女性运动的所谓‘科学依据’，其实都是神话和谬误，而这些错误观念之所以流传，是因为我们被灌输了太多这样的故事。

I mean, I do think that they're really important because I mean, what really learned while writing this book and wanted to focus on was that so many of the stories and ideas and you know, even when we're told like the science, you know, quote unquote are based on myth and on falsehood when it comes to women running and women in sport in general and a lot of that is because of the stories we've been told, right?

我们愿意相信这些故事，是因为长期以来社会的结构就是这样。我跟人聊这本书时，他们常会提到凯瑟琳·斯维策在波士顿马拉松的事，这确实是个标志性时刻。但你读完书就会知道，凯瑟琳并不是第一个跑波士顿马拉松的女性——在官方允许之前，早就有无数女性跑过。真正让人惊讶的是，光靠一个人做点什么，远远不够。

And the stories we want to believe because of just the ways that society has been set up for so long and you know, think a lot about when I tell people about this book, one of the first things they often say, you know, is they bring up Katherine Switzer in the Boston Marathon and I think that's such a touch point for people when they're thinking about women runners and as you know, because you read the book like there's, Catherine was one woman who ran the Boston Marathon, know, there were actually many, many women who ran the Boston Marathon before it was officially opened up to women and you know, what I think is so surprising is that it takes so much more than just that one woman doing something, right?

所以我觉得，特别是想到马拉松的时候，凯瑟琳·斯威策跑过之后，鲍比·吉布在她前一年也跑过，之后还有很多女性也跑过。波士顿终于正式允许女性参赛了，但之后又过了十二年，女性才第一次在奥运会上跑马拉松。你看，阻力真的太大了，对吧？

So I think especially like when we think about the marathon, like Katherine Switzer ran, Bobby Gibb ran the year before her, many women ran after that, Finally, Boston sanctioned women but then like it took another twelve years before women were running a marathon in the Olympics so you're up against so much, right?

所以，一个女性可能做了一件突破性的事，也许能打开局面，但也可能不行，对吧？

And so one woman can do something and maybe break it open but maybe not, right?

这往往需要各种事件和因素汇聚在一起才行。

It takes like this confluence of events.

我有个想法，我知道社交媒体因为各种原因名声不太好，有些批评也是合理的，但我看到它的一个好处是，它能让信息传播得比平时快得多。所以理论上，如果你在为某个特定问题努力，变革的速度可能会更快。

One of the things I wonder and I know social media gets a bad rap for a lot of reasons it's warranted but one of the positives I see about it is that of course, it allows information to spread a lot faster than it would otherwise and so theoretically, like the rate of change could be faster if you're working on a particular problem.

过去二十年里，我们看到很多重要的社会问题得到了解决，这在很大程度上要归功于社交媒体的巨大助力。

We've seen a lot of like really important like social issues solved for I would say in the last two decades in part because of social media helping out a ton.

这也是我一直想问的。比如，我想到了杰斯敏的故事能影响到多少人，这和你在书里提到的媒体覆盖情况形成了对比。你还记得二十世纪初那些赛事吗？当时虽然有摄影师在场，可能也拍到了照片，但要把这些照片传到普通大众甚至只是核心粉丝圈子里，往往得花上十天半个月。

So that's what I was wondering too, like if you you if like I just think about like the reach of Jasmin's story for example and how many people that influences versus like I know in your book you talk about media coverage at certain events like you know, in the early twentieth century and it's like there'd be photographers there, maybe they'd get a photo but it would take like you know, ten days to get to like not even the general public but like just like the core fans of the sport.

所以我对这种信息传播的可能性真的很感兴趣。

So I just I'm I'm really curious about that information spread possibility too.

没错。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

有一件事也让我特别着迷，就是你书里提到的大量报纸报道和档案研究，真的还原了二十世纪初女性跑步者的生活状态。你说得对，当时就算有文章，你也得恰好住在那个城市，又在当天买了那份报纸才能看到，而且很可能连张照片都没有。更关键的是，我在那些早期报纸文章里发现，这些女跑者几乎从不被采访。

That's something that really fascinated me as well was, you know, obviously there's a lot of there's a lot of newspaper coverage in the book, a lot of like archival work researching, you know, what it was really like for women in the early twentieth century who were runners and you're right, like maybe there would be an article, you know, and if there was, you wouldn't necessarily see it unless you lived in that city and happened to read the paper that day and maybe there was a picture but probably not and maybe most likely too, one of the things that I really found in those early twentieth century newspaper articles were these runners were almost never interviewed themselves.

她们从不发言。

They were never like speaking.

也从不被引用。

They were never quoted.

所以，她们的故事几乎全都是通过男性视角来呈现的，关于女性身体能做什么、不能做什么，全是他们的想法。

So, you know, you had their stories also really being shown through the lens of these like male ideas about women's bodies and what they were capable of, right?

她们常被塑造成怪胎，像是异类，或者让人觉得不可思议——居然有女人会在跑道上跑来跑去？

They were kind of presented as these almost freaks, you know, like outliers or like this is so crazy that these women would run around the track, you know?

所以我觉得你说得完全对，随着越来越多女性运动员亲自发声，把自己的故事讲出来，这真的带来了巨大改变。

And so I think you're absolutely right that, you know, as we've seen more and more and more women athletes speaking for themselves and putting their own stories out in the world, like I think that makes a huge difference.

我觉得这正是现在女子篮球获得更多关注的原因之一——她们有了自己的平台，大家终于能看见，原来她们一样有趣，一样有天赋。

I think that's some of the reason we're seeing, you know, much more attention on women's basketball right now or something like that is that these people have platforms of their own and you're able to kind of see like, oh, they are just as interesting, they are just as talented.

这不再经过那种传统上由男性主导、对女性能力持怀疑态度的体育媒体过滤了，对吧？

Like it's not being filtered through this like sports media which has been you know, very traditionally male and very traditionally kind of skeptical of women's abilities, right?

你研究了这段历史并写下了它之后，总体上你是对我们的发展方向和取得的进步持乐观态度，还是觉得仍需保持高度警惕，认为变革的速度还不够快？

Are you after studying the history and writing about the history of all this, are you generally an optimist about the direction that we're heading and the progress that's being made or do you still feel like a lot of vigilance is required and like there's still like the rate of change is not enough?

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

我说的是那些成就。

Of the things.

比如我想到的一些进展。

I think I can of the wins for example.

是的。

Yeah.

比如说最近，你知道，现在有很多普通妈妈都知道贾斯敏·巴黎是谁，她们就是普通的跑步爱好者，但都知道她。

I mean, I think most recently, you know, I mean, I think what we're seeing like that there are women that know who Jasmin Paris is that are just kind of like normal moms who run, you know, like just know who she is.

这真的意义重大。

Like that is a huge thing.

这和一百年前完全不同了。

That's completely different than a 100 ago.

我觉得我们现在正经历一个女性体育的重大转折点，这让人特别有希望，但同时也让人思考——看看过去花了多长时间，比如鲍比·吉布跑波士顿马拉松到奥运会设立女子马拉松，中间隔了整整二十年，这说明了什么？

I also think we have you know, really we're living through kind of a big turning point I'd say with women's sports and that's like particularly, you know, hopeful but it's also like, you know, it brings up those questions of like when you see how long this has taken, when you look back at these stories and say like, yeah, it took twenty years between when Bobby Gibb ran the Boston Marathon and the Olympics had a women's marathon.

那现在意味着什么？

What does that mean now?

我们是不是还要再等二十年，才能看到女子体育实现薪酬平等？

Like are we waiting twenty years before like, you know, we see pay equity in women's sports and things like that?

难道又要再等两代女孩成长起来，才会有改变吗？说实话，写这本书的时候，最让我震撼的是想到1966年鲍比·吉布被说成‘生理上不可能完成这项运动’这件事。

Like is that going to be another two generations of girls right now, you know, who I think what's so exciting is like this idea that for me, you know, particularly like when I was writing this book, one of the things that was so huge to me was thinking about Bobby Gibb in 1966 being told you are not physiologically capable of doing this.

这简直是我妈妈的童年经历。

That is like my mom's childhood, right?

我妈妈是1955年出生的。

Like my mom was born in 1955.

所以她小时候，根本就认为女性在生理上不可能做这些事。

So my mom was basically grew up thinking that that like women were not physiologically capable of doing these things.

我从小六岁就开始踢足球，还练田径和越野跑，这跟以前比简直是天翻地覆。虽然我这一路都被告诉说，你永远不可能比得上男孩，但大家还是一直鼓励我去做，对吧？

I grew up playing soccer starting when I was six and doing track and doing cross country, you know, and that's just like a huge change and even though I was told probably throughout my life that I was never going to be as good as a boy, I still was encouraged to do it, right?

我觉得，我们讲的这些故事，每一代都在一点点改变，你都能看出来——现在的小孩看到体育比赛时，那种兴奋劲儿就是最好的证明。

And so like how these stories that we tell, the different generations are changing like bit by bit I think and you can see that, right, in like the way that the little kids now are so excited to see sports.

他们看到女子体育比赛，特别激动。

They're so excited to see women's sports.

他们根本不会像以前那样，把它们分得那么清楚。

They don't really categorize it the same way.

不好意思，我刚才在你回答问题开头的时候插话了。不过，你一般觉得自己是更乐观的那一类人，还是依然很担忧？

And I apologize because I think I interrupted you earlier at the beginning of the question, but would you generally say like you kind of are more on the optimistic end of the spectrum or are still very concerned?

两者都有。

Both.

我的意思是，我确实挺乐观的。

I mean, I think I am optimistic.

我特别喜欢看女子运动员比赛，说真的，我爱她们。现在越来越多的人也开始说他们爱女子运动员、爱女子体育了，这真的让人特别振奋。

I love seeing mostly because listen, I love women athletes and I think like other people are finally saying that they love women athletes and women's sports too and that's been really exciting.

就拿过去十年写女子体育这件事来说，我明显感觉到变化太大了——人们对女子运动员的认知，还有看她们比赛时的心态，都跟以前完全不一样了。

Like even in the past ten years of writing about women's sports, I've noticed such a huge change just in the way that like what people know and what people, you know, the perspective that they bring to the table when they go see women athletes doing something.

不过我也得说，我们现在所处的时代，性别议题真的特别复杂，因为反对的声音依然很多，这一点谁都看得出来。

And I will say too though, you know, we live in a really difficult time just in terms of gender politics because there's a lot of backlash still happening, you know?

比如对跨性别运动员的担忧，对女子体育和女孩体育中什么是‘公平’的争论，这些都让我感到忧虑。

And I think, you know, we see that in like the fear around transgender athletes, the fear around, you know, like what is fair in women's sports and girls sports and that makes me concerned.

早上高强度训练最难受的，就是那种脑子昏沉、精神疲惫的感觉，尤其当你想集中精力开始一天的工作时。

One of the most difficult things about training hard in the morning is the brain fog and mental fatigue that comes when you're trying to get your workday going.

我相信所有早起跑步的朋友都深有体会——早上那几个小时，根本没法专注，也提不起劲儿。

I'm sure all of you morning runners out there can relate to that feeling of not being able to focus and get motivated in those first few hours at work.

所以当BIOptimizers推出一款叫‘Mushroom Breakthrough’的独特产品时，我特别兴奋。

That's why I was excited when BIOptimizers released its one of a kind product called Mushroom Breakthrough.

它是一种含有五种强效超级食物的粉剂，其中就包括整整一斤二两浓缩蘑菇，研究显示这些蘑菇能提升记忆力、专注力和思维速度等等。

It's a powdered blend of five potent superfoods including 1.2 pounds of concentrated mushrooms which have been shown in research to enhance memory, focus, processing speed and more.

这简直是早晨提升思维清晰度、帮助运动后恢复的完美选择，而且完全不用靠咖啡因刺激肾上腺。

It's the perfect way to not only boost recovery post run, but improve mental clarity in the morning without taxing your adrenal system with caffeine.

你会明显感觉到注意力、专注力和情绪上的变化，尤其是在晨训后特别疲惫、提不起劲儿的那些日子。

You'll notice the difference in concentration, focus, and mood, especially on those days when morning training really has you feeling tired and unmotivated.

想获取专属优惠，请前往 buyoptimizers.com/run，结账时输入代码 RUN10，R-U-N-10。

For an exclusive offer, go to buyoptimizers.com/run to the top and use code RUN10, 10, that's R U N, 10 during checkout.

BIOptimizers 的另一个亮点是，他们提供 365 天无条件退款保证，你可以放心试用，详情请访问 buyoptimizers.com/runtothetop。

And the great thing about BIOptimizers is that you can try it risk free with their 365 money back guarantee, so head on over to buyoptimizers.com/runtothetop to learn more.

如果你目前正在受伤，或者总是反复受伤，Exakt Health 提供了一种全新的康复方式。

If you're currently injured or tired of being constantly injured, then Exakt Health has a revolutionary new way to approach your injuries.

Exakt Health 是一款专为跑者设计的物理治疗应用，针对最常见的跑步损伤。

Exakt Health is a running physical therapy app for all of the most common running injuries.

这款应用让你能以实惠的价格获得专业且个性化的物理治疗，还能根据你的反馈自动调整方案。

The app simplifies access to a professional and customized physical therapy without the high cost and that automatically adapts to your feedback as well.

所有康复计划都由他们的理疗团队设计，基于最新科研成果，帮你从最初感到疼痛一直到完全恢复跑步。

The plans are designed by their physical therapy team and are based on the latest scientific research to guide you through your rehab process from feeling that first pain to a complete return to running.

除了康复计划，Exakt Health 还为跑者提供了预防性训练方案。

Besides those injury plans, Exakt Health also offers a prevention plan for runners.

这个计划专为帮助跑者建立正确的动作模式，提升整体力量与灵活性，从而预防跑步损伤。

This plan is specifically designed to help runners adopt good movement patterns and improve overall strength and mobility to prevent running injuries.

前往 runnersconnect.net/injury 下载并试用这款应用，通过苹果或谷歌应用商店享受七天免费试用。

Download and test the app at runnersconnect.net/injury and get with the seven day free trial via the Apple or Google Play Store.

此外，使用代码 RUNTOTHETOP 可享受三个月或六个月订阅最高四成折扣。

Plus use the code RUNTOTHETOP to get up to 40% off their three and six month subscriptions.

我刚刚在反思我们的这项运动，比如超马越野跑这个领域，确实存在很多亟待解决的问题。

I'm just reflecting on our sport, like the world of like ultra trail running and there's we have a ton of problems we have to work on.

我的意思是，看看参与人数的数据就知道了，我们还有大量工作要做。

I mean, just look at like the overhead numbers of participation, like we have to there's a lot of work to be done.

但有一件事让我特别兴奋，我觉得这几乎是顺理成章的发展——根据沃尔特的说法。

But one thing that excites me and I feel like it was a pretty natural development is according to Walter.

她是这项运动中最受爱戴的运动员，没有之一。

She is universally the most beloved athlete in our sport and it's not even close.

你只要看看女性运动员的排名，再看看男性运动员的排名，就知道了。

Like you look, you go down the ranks of female athletes, you go down the ranks of male athletes, etcetera.

她的知名度，不仅在运动圈内，甚至在圈外，都是最高的，根本没人能比。

Her name recognition, not just in the sport but outside of it, think is the highest and it's not even close.

我觉得这挺了不起的。

I think that's kind of cool.

是的，完全没错。

Yeah, absolutely.

你身边不就是有这样的人吗？

I mean you have people like that, right?

我觉得这也证明了，变化的速度确实很快。

And I think that's also proof of yeah, the rate of change, right?

而且，当我们回头看体育本身的时候，其实有很多积极的方面。

And how, I mean, also like within these, like, think it's part two of like that when we look within the sports themselves, like there is a lot of good, right?

很多时候，对未知的恐惧、把女性限制在固定角色里、坚持严格的二元分类，这些往往都来自外界。

A lot of times there's the fear of the unknown and the kind of like keeping women in their place and making sure we have these strict, you know, binary categories often comes from kind of like the outside.

但你去跟运动员聊聊，会发现他们大多都清楚身体能做什么。

It's like when you talk to athletes, like most of them are very like they're aware of like what bodies can do, right?

而且想想她们有多了不起，人类的多样性如此广阔，我们都该为彼此能达成的成就感到惊叹，对吧？

And like how amazing they are that, you know, there's this huge spectrum of humanity and we should all kind of like be in awe of what we can all do, right?

再回到Lululemon的FURTHER活动，让我特别感兴趣的是，你也在书里多次提到，长期以来，直到今天2024年，女性运动员依然面临巨大的信息空白。

Coming back to the Lululemon FURTHER event, one of the things that interested me about that was and you and you talk about it a lot in the book, like, for a long time, even really right until present day 2024, there's a massive information void for female identifying athletes.

对吧？

Right?

现有的研究资料根本跟不上现实需求。

Like, the literature out there has not caught up.

我觉得这很有意思，当然，你也可以纠正我。

I found it very interesting that like, and I could be, you know, you could correct me here.

据我了解，推动这件事的主力并不是公立学术机构。

From what I understand, a lot of the push isn't coming from like public sector academia.

反而是像Lululemon这样的私营企业，主动办了这场活动。

Like a private sector company like Lululemon had to create an event.

虽然里面有不少营销成分，但核心目标之一，就是开始做以女性为中心的研究，探讨女性身体在超耐力运动中的表现。

There's a lot of marketing in it, but one of the biggest premises was starting to do research that is like female centered on how the body performs in an ultra endurance context, know.

我觉得这太棒了，不过你能不能跟听众说说，这个问题到底有多重要？为什么我们会面临这样的情况？你有什么观察？

I just I think that that's so cool, but maybe tell the audience a bit just about like what the stakes are here and your observations on why we have this problem that we do and yeah, just take it away.

说到研究，体育科学领域一直以来都偏向男性。很多医学和生理学研究也都是以男性为对象，因为长期以来，医学根本没把女性当作独立的群体来研究。

I mean, it comes to research, like sports science research in general has just always been very male focused and you know, some of that is because a lot of medical research and physiological research in general has usually been male focused and that comes from, you know, just sort of how medicine didn't really look at women as their own thing, as their own category for a long time.

人们默认女性和男性在医学和运动上都能用同样的方式对待。不过近几年情况改善了很多，尤其是随着女性运动员逐渐被社会接受——得有足够多的女孩开始跑步，相关研究才真正开始。

It was sort of just assumed that we could treat women the same way that we treated men when it came to medicine but also when it comes to sports and I think what's, we've gotten a lot better in recent years and especially given just how long it took for girl athletes and women athletes to become normalized, know, like enough girls had to be runners for them to start doing those studies.

我觉得特别有意思的是，这不只是要改变社会上‘女性和女孩也能做这些事’这种观念的问题。

So that's one of the things that I think is just like very fascinating that I found was, it wasn't just that like we had to change the ideological conversation in society about, yes, women and girls are capable of doing this stuff.

这些科学家、研究者和医生还得真刀真枪地做研究，去证明一件事：允许女性跑步并不会伤害她们，因为过去大家真的担心这个。

These scientists and researchers and you know, doctors had to actually do research to prove because there was so much fear around like whether we were hurting women and girls by allowing them to run.

这些研究确实有积极意义，它们证明了：好吧，我们可以跑马拉松，不会因此丧命，也不会因此失去生育能力——这些曾经都是真实的恐惧。

They had to do the research to disprove that but some of that was good, right?

但即便现在有了这些研究，很多运动员和医生告诉我，他们依然缺乏你提到的那种具体信息。

Because it did start to show like, okay, we can do this or we're allowed, we're gonna allow this, we're gonna put these things in the Olympics but also you know, what a lot of athletes and doctors that I spoke to for the book would say were you know, we might have this research now that says, okay, you know, we're not gonna die if we run a marathon, we're not gonna, you know, lose our ability to have a baby if we run a marathon, which were all, real fears at various points but they don't necessarily have the information like you're talking about.

比如，女性在超长耐力运动中，身体到底需要什么？这些需求和男性有什么不同？有没有哪些因素能带来优势？

Like what are there certain things that like women's bodies need during an ultra that maybe men's bodies don't or that would provide an advantage.

我们已经到达极限了吗？

Like have we reached the top?

我们知道，人类整体的表现一直在稳步提升，但女性刚开始参与跑步项目时，进步速度要快得多。既然我们至今还没完全搞清楚如何最大化地优化训练，还没真正掌握女性身体的生物潜能，那我们真的知道女性的极限在哪吗？这些成绩差距真的会一直保持不变吗？

We know and you know, obviously in humanity we see that there are these we're kind of consistently getting better but when women started doing running events, they got better at much faster intervals and so there is this idea that like, okay, if we still don't know how to maximize and like biohack to the best of our abilities, like these running events and for runners then do we really know what the ceiling is on what women can achieve and do we really know that like these performance gaps are going to stay exactly the way that they are?

我觉得这特别有意思，你说是吧？

And I think that's really fascinating, you know?

不过你说得对，运动医学确实是个独立的领域。

But like, you're right, like I don't know, sports medicine is its own thing, right?

它背后有很多私人资金和复杂的因素，因为你确实需要那些能提供资金支持的人感兴趣——在体育界，通常就是那些大品牌。

It does have a lot of like private money and interesting components because you really do need that like, you need interest from people who can fund and like in sports, like that's often like these big brands.

所以我觉得，这某种程度上正是问题所在。

And so that's kind of like, I think part of like the problem.

说到这点，书里有两个地方让我印象特别深。

Well, were to to your point, there were there were two parts of the book that really left an impression on me.

一个是你说的，在设计研究方案、考虑科学方法之前，这些科学家在研究基因组学、生物医学和运动科学时，心里到底带着哪些预设？

One was your point that like even before you get into like designing research protocol and thinking about the scientific method and stuff, what assumptions are these scientists bringing to the table before they even get into like research around like genomics and biomedical stuff and exercise science?

这挺有意思的。

That was interesting.

还有保拉·拉德克利夫的故事，对吧？

And then the story around Paula Radcliffe, right?

她跑出了2小时15分的马拉松成绩，然后怀孕了——这事儿也就十五二十年前，不算太久，但那时候她完全是走在医学的未知领域。

Like she runs two fifteen in the marathon, then she gets pregnant and like this is what, fifteen, twenty years ago, so not that long ago, but that is like she's in medically unknown territory.

相关研究里根本找不到先例。

Like there's no precedent for that in the research.

我觉得这简直让人震惊。

That's I just found that like mind blowing.

是啊，确实如此。

Yeah, it is, right?

你想想，短短十五二十年，变化有多大，而生育就是其中一个重大转变。

Like it's just wild when we sit down and think like how much has changed in just fifteen, twenty years and that's one of the big ones is childbirth, right?

直到不久前，女性运动员还普遍被告诉：生了孩子，职业生涯就结束了，身体再也回不去了，速度也找不回来了，怀孕期间能不能训练？没人知道，因为风险太大了。

And how women athletes were really told up until not that long ago that like you have a baby, your career is over, like you're not getting your body back, you're not going to get your speed back, we don't know whether you can train while you're pregnant, like, because it's, it just seemed so risky.

而且某种程度上，这其实跟一种观念有关——女性被默认视为潜在的母亲。

And some of that, you know, I think does come back to this idea that like just ideologically, like women were seen as potential mothers, right?

大家最关心的是她们能否继续生育，我们生怕做任何事会伤害到她们。但如今这种观念发生了巨大转变，就像你说的，故事能改变一切，现在我们看到越来越多女性在成为母亲的同时，依然保持着顶尖运动员的身份，一路坚持下来。

And like the most important thing was that they retain this ability to have babies and we could never do anything that might harm them and I think that's what's like such a huge shift again, like you said about seeing stories that can change things is seeing these women who have now like maintained their ability to be professional athletes and elite athletes while becoming mothers and like going through that.

还有耐克当年解雇怀孕运动员的事，其实没过去多久吧？

And I mean like the whole Nike experience of dropping their pregnant athletes, that didn't happen that long ago, right?

这背后部分是因为信息不足，但更多是我们下意识觉得，这些女性生完孩子后，不可能再回到以前的状态了。

And that was all part of it was that maybe it was that we didn't have the information but we also just like made the assumption that these women were not coming back the way that they to the form that they had before they had children.

这真让人难以置信。

It's wild.

这话题稍微偏了点，但就连其他职业领域也是这样，我有几个女教师朋友，面试时主管直接问：‘我看你怀孕了，你打算怎么兼顾工作和育儿？’

Yeah, this is a little bit off topic but even just going into other areas of professionalism like I've had teacher friends, female teacher friends who like in their job interviews, the administrator will ask you know, I see you're pregnant, how are you gonna be able to do both of these jobs simultaneously?

这种问题，你根本不会问男性候选人——比如‘你当了爸爸，怎么平衡工作和家庭？’

That's such an you know, you would never see a male candidate forced to reckon with that question like, okay, how are you gonna be a dad and you know, do your job at the school here at the same time?

真的太离谱了。

Just it's just wild.

没错，完全正确，我想在这本书里想传达的一点就是，这些现象之间是有联系的。

Exactly, exactly right and I think that's one of the things that I wanted to get across in this book is that there are connections, right?

从我们对哪些工作适合或不适合女性的刻板印象，到长期以来对哪些运动适合或不适合女性的假设，这些想法从来都不是孤立存在的。

Between the ways that we assume that certain jobs are for or not for women and the way that we have assumed for so long that certain sports are for or not for women and that like these ideas don't just live in one place, right?

当我们看到这些观念，尤其是在体育领域——它们被我们奉为偶像，搬上电视，成为许多人生活的中心时，这些偏见其实一直在悄悄影响着人们。

When we see them, especially in sports, is something that we idolize and we put on our TVs and we like put at the center of our universes, for many of us, like those ideas really do trickle down and remain in effect.

我也不想剧透太多书里的内容，不过最后我想聊一聊书里的一句话，它特别能说明，我们对参与体育运动的种种规范，其实从小就深植于心了。

I don't wanna give away too much of the book so maybe the last thing I'd like to talk about, I'm gonna paraphrase a quote from the book that I think speaks to sort of like how early a lot of these norms around participation in athletics get ingrained in us.

书中说：当这些关于差异的观念在学校里被灌输时，它们的影响力尤其强大。

And the quote is, lessons of difference are especially potent when they're taught in our schools.

我们在成长过程中，通过自己的身体所学到的那些认知，会在心里留下长久的烙印。

Lessons learned in our own bodies at the time when we're figuring out our places in the world remain deeply ingrained.

你能不能展开说说，这些早期的观念是如何影响一个人长期参与体育运动的轨迹的？

Talk about that and just like how that influences long term trajectory and participation in sport.

当然，完全同意。

Oh, absolutely.

很高兴你读到了这一部分。

I'm really glad you read that part.

我特别想深入探讨的一点是，我们的学校其实高度隔离。

This is one of the things that I really tried to dig into deeply was this idea that our schools are really segregated.

在这个国家，学校不仅在种族上隔离，这个问题依然严重，性别上的隔离也同样明显。

Our schools are very segregated in this country by obviously by race, like we still have a lot of issues with that in our country but also by gender.

但很多人没意识到这一点，我说的不是女子学院或男校这类情况，而是日常学习中，我们常常把男孩和女孩分开，最典型的就是体育课和课外运动。

And I think we don't think about that as much and I'm not talking about like women's colleges and boys schools and things like that but you know that there are moments within our school day where we really segregate boys and girls and mostly that happens in gym class and in after school sports.

小孩子会把这些看在眼里，记在心里。

And if you're a young child, you're taking that in, right?

如果你从小听到的暗示或明示是：女孩在体育课上就该做别的，比如打垒球，而不是学橄榄球，这种观念就会深深扎根在你心里。

And if the message you're receiving, whether implicitly or explicitly is that, you know, as a girl, you're going to do something else at PE class like you might play softball instead of learning how to play tackle football for instance and that's going to ingrain in your mind, right?

哪怕只是小学的田径训练，看似没什么压力，可你还是被分成男生组和女生组比赛。

That like, oh, my body is not capable of this thing that the boys are doing at the same time or if you're told like, okay, elementary school track practice for instance, you know, something very low stakes and yet like you're still splitting into boys and girls races.

这传递出什么信息？那些其实跑得比男生还快的女孩，却永远没机会看到，自己的身体完全能和男生一样出色。

Like what does that say that those girls who actually might be faster than those boys at that time aren't getting the opportunity to see that their bodies are capable of the same things as boys are.

所以我觉得，当我们想到这一点时，更宏观层面的问题其实还在继续。

So I think when we think about that and then at an even higher level, that continues.

特别明显的一个例子就是大学体育——我们的教育机构总是把资源和关注都集中在橄榄球队上，哪怕女子篮球队或者女子越野队表现得同样出色。

And one of the things that really stands out is of course college sports and the way that we at our educational institutions say that like, okay, these football teams get all of the funding and all of the attention even if our women's basketball team or our women's cross country team is really, really good.

你自然会觉得低人一等，这种现象体现在方方面面，虽然从法律上讲，这违反了第九条修正案，但现实中却非常普遍。

You know, you're gonna be kind of seen as lesser than and that plays out in all kinds of ways which you know, is technically illegal under title nine but it's very, very common.

性别隔离这个现象，我以前真没怎么想过，但听你这么一说，确实挺有意思。我记得上大学时去了马萨诸塞大学阿默斯特分校，不远处就是蒙特霍利oke和史密斯学院，都是女子学校。

The the world being gender segregated is something I I haven't thought about a lot but that's really interesting and it it reminds me so in college, I I went to a school, UMass Amherst and then right down the road was Mount Holyoke and Smith, both, you know, female only schools.

你觉得这种单性别学校是好事吗？还是说它们其实限制了学生的视野，应该向男女混合开放？

Do you think that that's a good thing or do you think that like those schools are creating like a limited world view and that they should be like opened up?

你对这个怎么看？

What are your thoughts there?

本，我就是史密斯学院毕业的。

Ben, I went to Smith.

没想到你居然知道，这真是太巧了。

I didn't know you knew that but that's so funny.

是的，没错，

Oh yeah, no,

我特别喜欢北安普顿和阿默斯特，那是个很棒的地方。

I love Northampton and Amherst, a great area.

其实，这正是我对性别议题如此感兴趣的原因之一。我上过一所女子学院——史密斯学院，身处那样的环境，你会发现它跟人们通常的假设恰恰相反——你以为这是在自我设限，其实恰恰相反。

Yes, no, I think well, think that's actually one of the reasons that I'm so interested in gender and in seeing things like beyond a binary as having had the opportunity to go to a school that was women, you know, a historical women's college and being in that kind of environment, it's almost like the opposite of what you might assume, like that assumption that like, okay, we're limiting ourselves.

因为你没有了性别二元中的另一方，反而能摆脱那些束缚，对吧？

It's almost like you're able to remove the limits because you don't have this other part of the binary, right?

这样一来，大家就不得不去填补那些过去被男性占据的角色，你懂我的意思吗？

So it's just removed like then everyone has to like fill in what they might have previously limited themselves because boys or men were taking up those roles, you know what I mean?

所以我觉得单性别环境最动人的一点就在这儿，而这一点在女子体育中也特别明显——你能看到女性突破传统性别角色的种种可能。

So that's what one of the things that I think is really beautiful and amazing about single sex environments and I think that that's also something that plays out in women's sports a lot actually is these teams where, you know, you're able to see women that are going beyond, you know, traditional female roles.

但同时，我也觉得这很复杂，我希望这本书能传达的正是这一点：性别问题远比表面看起来复杂得多，它没有简单的答案。有时候，人们一谈到追求平等，就以为只要一个简单方案就能解决一切，对吧？

At the same time, you know, I think that's complex and I hope that that's kind of what the book gets across to is that, you know, gender is really complicated and it's not just like a one answer and you know, I think sometimes people think that, you know, when we're advocating for more equality, sometimes people want to make it a simple answer, right?

比如，干脆取消体育中的性别隔离。

Like, okay, just get rid of gender segregation in sports.

可没人这么说过，对吧？

Well, nobody said that, right?

我们其实可以想得更开放一点，把那些固有的观念拓宽一些。

Like we actually, maybe we could just like think more expansively and like expand the ideas that we have.

不过确实，这些不同的背景下，关于性别的思考都大有可为。

But yeah, I do think that there's great opportunities for thinking about gender in all of those different contexts.

Maggie，和你聊天真的非常愉快。

Well Maggie, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.

这本书让我学到了很多，我特别喜欢。

I learned a lot from the book, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

书名是《更好、更快、更远：跑步如何改变了我们对女性的所有认知》。

The title is Better Faster Farther How Running Changed Everything We Know About Women.

我们会在本期节目的说明里附上这本书的链接。

We will link to it in the show notes of this episode.

书预计六月中旬上市，我们现在是四月底录的，再过几周就发布了，非常值得一读。

It goes live I believe in mid June, so we're recording in late April, so a few weeks from Great book, check it out.

这真是一次很棒的对话，非常感谢你。

And this has been awesome, thank you so much.

在结束之前，你有什么想对听众说的建议或号召吗？

And do you have any final thoughts or calls to action that you wanna leave listeners with before we go?

不，该说谢谢的是我，感谢邀请我来做客。

No, thank you so much for having me.

我觉得我唯一的建议就是去读读这本书，支持女性运动员。

I mean, I think my only call to action is check out the book and support women athletes.

感谢收听《RUN2THETOP》播客。

Thanks for listening to the RUN2THETOP podcast.

我是你们的主持人，芬·穆兰森。

I'm your host, Finn Mullansson.

我们每期节目的目标，都是帮助你成为更好的跑者。

As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode.

欢迎在 Instagram 上关注我，账号是 Wasatch Finn，也别忘了关注我们团队的 Runners Connect。

Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners connect.

另外，也可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 播客上给我们的节目打个分，这对我们来说就是免费的支持。

Also, supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players.

最后，如果你喜欢这个节目，想获取独家内容、幕后花絮、嘉宾的特别互动，还有优先参与抽奖和赠品活动，就去 runnersconnect.net/podcast 订阅我们的通讯吧。

And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net backslash podcast.

好了，我们下期再见，祝你一切顺利。

Until next time, happy trading.