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理论上，任何超过马拉松距离的赛跑都算超马。
In theory, any race longer than a marathon is classified as an ultramarathon.
所以按这个说法，我跑过50公里，也算超马跑者了。
So in theory, that makes me an ultrarunner because I ran a 50 k.
其实我跑过三次。
Actually, I ran three of them.
但中间隔了好几年，那期间我根本没跑过超马。
But they were spaced out by several years of non ultrarunning in between.
问题是，我觉得自己根本不配叫超马跑者，因为我根本不喜欢真正超马跑者那些东西。
The thing is that I don't think I really deserve the title at all, because I don't seem to like some of the things real ultrarunners like.
比如水泡。
Like blisters.
我准备50公里比赛的时候，还专门有一套防水泡的方案。
I actually had an anti blister strategy when I was preparing for the 50 k.
还有夜里跑步。
Or running at night.
在陌生又漆黑的林间小道上跑，对我来说太考验心性了。我觉得自己还得先多磨练磨练，再考虑去跑那种夜路。
Being on a dark unfamiliar trail is a little too character building for me, and I think I need to first build some character and then maybe think about doing that kind of thing.
说到林道，我总担心自己踩到树根之前根本看不见它。
And speaking of trails, I'm always afraid I won't see the root until after it has tripped me.
要是再配上黑夜，我估计得踩到比平时多好多倍的树根。
And in the dark, I think I might end up finding a lot more roots than usual.
或者你还会把它们看成蛇。
Or you might think they're snakes.
我可能还会觉得它们是蛇。
I might also think they're snakes.
那确实挺吓人的。
That that could be scary.
你脑子里全是蛇，老想着它们是蛇。
You think about their snake them being snakes so much.
我跑步的时候从澳大利亚给你发过一张照片，说，你看，Liz。
I sent you a photograph from Australia when I was running and said, look, Liz.
这是一张路上有蛇的照片。
Here's a photograph of snake on the trail.
其实那是根花园水管。
It was a garden hose.
对。
Yeah.
但在澳大利亚你确实得小心，毕竟那边路上蛇多，你之前跟我说过不少呢。
But you never know in Australia because, you know, they're famous for snakes over there on the trails because you told me all about those.
好了，接着说。
Anyway, moving on.
虽然我很喜欢跑步，但我真不太喜欢在睡觉的时间去跑，而超马选手好像经常这么做。
As much as I love running, I'm not a big fan of doing it during sleeping hours, which is something else Ultramarathoners seem to do a lot of.
而且我觉得我也不喜欢产生幻觉，听说那些跑超长距离还不睡觉的人经常会出现这种情况。
And I don't think I would enjoy hallucinating either, which seems to happen a lot to people that are running really long distances without sleeping.
不过，咱们的听众有福了，因为今天请到的这位嘉宾根本不需要我来教他怎么跑超马。他在这方面经验非常丰富，光西部100英里耐力赛他就跑了十二次以上，还参加过很多其他比赛。
Well, lucky for our listeners, you won't need to listen to me give you any advice on ultrarunning because today's guest author has no shortage of experience doing ultras and has run Western States 100 more than 12 times in addition to many other events.
大家好，欢迎来到《跑步书评》播客。我们专门点评那些写给跑者、关于跑者、或由跑者撰写的书籍，帮你判断自己是否值得读这本书。
Hi, and welcome to the Running Book Reviews podcast where we review books written for runners, about runners, and by runners to help you decide if you would like to read the book for yourself.
我们也希望，通过听我们聊跑步，能帮你保持对跑步的热情，或者激发你去尝试一些新鲜事物。
We also hope that listening to us chat about running can help keep you motivated about your own running, or maybe inspire you to try something new.
我是Liz，和我的搭档Alan一起，今天我们要采访作家Dean Karnazes，聊聊他的新书《跑步者的快感》。
My name is Liz, and with my cohost, Alan, we're going to talk with author Dean Karnazes about his book, A Runner's High.
《跑步者的快感：我运动的一生》讲述了Dean在五十多岁时重返西部100英里越野赛的故事，当时他也在思考自己在这个圈子里是否还有一席之地。
A Runner's High, My Life in Motion is the story of Dean returning to Western States one hundred to do this race again in his fifties at a time where he's also wondering if he's still relevant in the sport.
他还在候补名单上，所以没什么动力去训练。
He's waitlisted, so doesn't feel the motivation to train very much.
眼看离比赛只剩几个月，迪恩参加了一场100公里比赛，以此作为训练的开端。
And as he gets to within only a few months of race day, Dean enters a 100 k race to kick off his training.
整本书里，迪恩回忆了过去，聊起家人如何在他的人生和跑步生涯中给予支持，还分享了一些他在超马比赛中遇到的人的故事。
Throughout the book, Dean reminisces about the past, talks about his family and how they've supported him throughout his life and in his running career and recounts anecdotes about people he meets during ultras.
所以，让我给那些还不认识迪恩·卡纳泽斯的一两个跑友简单介绍一下，说说迪恩和他的背景。
So let me tell you a little bit of for the one or two running people who don't know Dean Karnazes, let me tell you a little bit about, Dean and his background.
迪恩·卡纳泽斯是一位超马跑者，他的成就令人印象深刻，其中包括在50天内跑完50个州的50场马拉松。
Dean Karnazes is an ultrarunner who has an impressive list of accomplishments, including running 50 marathons in 50 states in fifty days.
我觉得这算是他最出圈、最出名的成就之一了。
I think that's sort of, like, the the ultimate, fame thing.
作为一个不太耐热的人，在盛夏横穿死亡谷，这简直不可思议。
Running across Death Valley in the middle of summer, as somebody who doesn't tolerate heat very well.
我完全无法想象那是种什么感觉。
I can't imagine that.
跑到南极的马拉松，那才更像我会喜欢的马拉松。
Running a marathon to the South Pole, that's probably more my kind of marathon.
我可受不了。
Not mine.
一个人跑两百英里的接力赛。
Run a 200 mile relay race solo.
迪恩还赢过巴德沃特超级马拉松，这比赛通常被称为地球上最艰苦的比赛，还有四沙漠挑战赛，基本上就是在地球上最热、最干燥、风最大和最冷的地方比赛。
Dean has also won the Badwater Ultramarathon, commonly known as the toughest race on earth, and the 4 Deserts Challenge, which involve race racing in the hottest, driest, windiest, and coldest places on earth, basically.
你大概已经明白了吧。
You're getting the idea here, I'm sure.
他写过好几本书，还合著了一些。
He's authored and co authored several books.
最出名的应该是《超马人》，说起来，不管好坏，Dean 最后就被大家叫做‘超马人’了。
The most well known is probably Ultramarathon Man, and I guess, for better or for worse, Dean sort of ended up with the the the nickname or the tag Ultramarathon Man.
这本书里好几次都提到了这个称呼。
It appears in the book a few times.
他还和我们认识的朋友马特·菲茨杰拉德合写了一本书，马特上过我们节目三次，书名叫《跑完50场马拉松的50个秘诀》。
But he also wrote a book with Matt Fitzgerald, a friend of ours who's been on three times on our podcast called fifty fifty secrets I learned running 50 marathons in fifty days.
这本书挺有意思的。
That could be an interesting one.
我还没看过这本。
I haven't seen that one.
Dean 毕业于旧金山大学麦克拉伦商学院，也是一位成功的企业家，曾在多家《财富》500强企业和初创公司担任要职。
Dean is also a graduate of the USF McLaren School of Business and Management and an accomplished businessman with a notable professional career working for several Fortune 500 companies and startups.
那么，不多说了，欢迎Dean。
So without further ado, welcome, Dean.
我真不敢当这么高的评价，不过还是很感谢。
I I don't feel worthy of that introduction, but I appreciate it.
不，我觉得你配得上这些，甚至更多。
Well, yeah, I think you end up all of the introduction and then some.
没错。
Yeah.
我们可能还漏掉了一些成就。
We're probably missing a few accomplishments.
不过我们
But We
想留点时间好好跟你聊聊。
we want to reserve a bit of time to talk to you.
不然我们干脆直接念你的简历播完一整期了。
Otherwise, we could just do your bio for the whole podcast.
好，那让我直接开始。
So let me Yeah.
让我直接切入第一个问题，其实我应该提前告诉你问题是什么，这样你也有点时间准备。
Let me kick straight to the opening question, which I should have warned you what the opening question was so you you'd have some chance to prepare.
不过基本上问题都一样，你知道的，是什么让你决定写这本书的？
But, basically, it's always the same, and it's you know, what made you decide to write this book?
我想，我的第一本书《超马男人》需要一个结尾故事，或者说一个从三十年前到现在仍在继续的故事。
I guess that, my first book, Ultramarathon Man, needed a kind of a concluding story or a kind of a a work in progress story from what happened thirty years ago to what's going on today.
我想试着回答这个问题，就是，我还在跑吗？
And I thought I would try to answer the question, you know, am I still running?
我还享受跑步吗？
Am I still enjoying running?
我为什么还在坚持跑？
How is it I'm still running?
这一路走来，我的经历是怎样的？
And what's the journey been like along the way?
所以我打算写一本能实现这些目标的书，但更重要的是，我想写一本配得上它书名的书。
So I I thought that I wanted to write a book that accomplished all those things, but also, more importantly, I wanted to write a book that lived up to its title.
这目标可不低，因为对我来说，跑步时的愉悦感是一种非常深刻的感受。
And that was a pretty lofty goal, because a runner's high is a pretty to me, at least, is a pretty profound feeling.
如果你读过优秀的文学作品，我觉得那种感觉和跑步带来的快感很像，都是某种类似血清素的愉悦。
And if you read good literature, I also think you get a high of a of a same sort of, you know, serotonin or whatever it might be.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你读到书里一段精彩的文字，一段优美的 prose，它真的能打动你。
But if you read a a a good passage in a book, a good prose, it stimulates you.
所以我想，你这已经是第五本书了，
So I thought, you know, you've written this is your fifth book.
也许自打第一本之后，你的写作水平有了提升，毕竟我觉得我自己的第一本书写得实在太差了。
Maybe you've learned how to write a a bit better since your first book because I still think my first book is horribly written.
于是我心想，你不仅要当个出色的跑者，也得努力当个好作家。
And I I thought, you know, try to do your best as far as being a writer as well, not just a runner.
这也是《跑者的高潮》这本书的由来。
And that was kind of the genesis of A Runner's High.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，我觉得他写得确实很好，因为我从来没想过要像书里那样，在黑暗中奔跑，或者因为不睡觉跑到产生幻觉的地步。
I mean, I would say the writing was really good because, you know, I've never aspired to, like, run through the dark or, you know, like, run until I'm hallucinating because I haven't slept.
我读这本书的时候，就开始想，也许我也该去试试那种真正的超马比赛。
And and I was reading the book, and, you know, I was starting to think, well, maybe I should try one of these, like, real ultras.
我是说，我跑过50公里，但这不算真正的超马。
I mean, you know, I've done 50 k, but that's not I wouldn't say that's a real ultra.
毕竟你是在白天跑。
You're you know, you're running during the day.
说白了就是马拉松后面再加个七八公里。
It's basically a marathon with an extra bonus seven eight kilometers tacked on the back.
可能还得爬些山。
With some mountains in the way probably as well.
如果你是在山径上跑，不过说实话，我有一次是在公路上跑的。
If you do it on the trail, but, you know, I I did one on the road.
所以你连这个挑战都没有。
So so you don't even have that challenge.
要不咱们先从头说起？要是有人还没读过你的其他书，你是怎么开始跑超马的？
I guess maybe we can start with, if anybody, like, hasn't read read your other books, how did you start ultrarunning?
我的意思是，跑步本身已经不容易了，但超马完全是另一回事。
I mean, you know, like, just running is is something, but ultrarunning.
而且你已经跑了这么多年了。
And especially, you know, you've been doing it for so long.
我记不得二十年前、三十年前有谁这么谈论超马，可现在人人都知道，那时候可没这么火。
I don't remember hearing so much about ultrarunning, let's say, twenty years ago or thirty years ago as, you know, everybody knows about ultrarunning now, but, it wasn't so popular back then.
那你当初是怎么入行的？
So how did you get into it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的故事有点意思，小时候我其实特别爱跑步。
My origin story is kinda interesting in that I used to love to run, when I was a kid.
我记得小时候上幼儿园的时候，经常自己跑着回家，那大概是我最早的记忆了。
So I remember running home from kindergarten when I was a young boy, and that was, like, my earliest childhood recollections.
后来我一路跑到了高中，还在高一那年帮学校拿了联赛冠军。
And then I ran competitively all the way through high school, and we won the the league championships when I was, in my first year of high school.
当时我还以为，我的跑步生涯也就到这儿了。
And I thought, you know, that's as far as I'll ever take my running career.
说实话，跑步这段经历挺不错的，但我后来觉得跑着跑着有点无聊了，觉得有更好的时间利用方式。
You know, it's been a good ride, but I thought running was getting kinda boring, and I had better ways to to spend my time.
所以我在15岁那年就不跑了。
So I stopped running when I was 15.
后来我上了高中。
And I got to high school.
接着读了大学，又读了研究生，最后还读了商学院。我在旧金山找到了一份非常体面的公司工作。
I went to university, and then I went to graduate school, And then I went to business school, and I had a very comfortable, corporate job in San Francisco.
然后在我三十岁生日那天晚上，我和哥们儿在夜店、小酒馆或者酒吧里，做着三十岁生日那天大家都会做的事。
And then the night of my thirtieth birthday, I was in a a nightclub, you know, in a pub, in a bar with my buddies, doing what kind of what's the tradition on your thirtieth birthday.
你知道的，就是喝得烂醉。
You know, you get very drunk.
到了午夜，我跟朋友们说我要走了，他们问：你要去哪儿？
And I told my friends at midnight I was gonna leave, and they said, where are you going?
不如再喝一轮龙舌兰，庆祝一下吧。
Let's have another round of tequila to celebrate it.
你知道，那是你三十岁的生日。
You know, it's your thirtieth birthday.
我说，不了。
And I said, no.
我打算跑30英里来庆祝，也就是差不多50公里。
I'm gonna celebrate by running 30 miles instead, which is, you know, close to 50 kilometers.
他们看着我，说，可你又不是跑步的人。
And they looked at me and they said, but you're not a runner.
你喝多了。
You're drunk.
我说，是喝多了，但我还是要跑。
And I said, I am, but I'm still gonna do it.
我就这么走出了酒吧。那时候我连跑步装备都没有，身上只穿了一条真丝内裤，就是那种真丝的平角裤。
And I walked out of this bar, and I didn't even own running gear at this at the at the time, but I had on these silk underwear, these silk, like, boxer shorts.
所以我到现在都忘不了。
So I'll never forget.
我把裤子脱了扔进小巷，然后跌跌撞撞地往南走，心想那个叫半月湾的小镇离这儿有三十英里。
I took off my pants and threw them down the alleyway and just started stumbling into the night heading south thinking that a township called Half Moon Bay was 30 miles away.
等酒劲过了，我就想，我到底在干嘛啊？
And, you know, when the alcohol wore off, I thought, what the hell are you doing?
这决定真是蠢透了。
It was really What a dumbass decision.
真是个馊主意。
Bad idea.
对。
Yeah.
但感觉是对的，所以我继续往前走。
But it felt right, so I just kept going.
最后我居然挺过来了。
And I somehow made it.
我一整夜不停地跑，然后决定辞职，去跑超级马拉松。
I ran straight through the night and decided that I was gonna quit my job and become an ultramarathoner.
然后，哇。
And then this Wow.
所有这些，都在你三十岁生日派对上。
All the all that in in over your thirtieth birthday party.
对。
Yeah.
那时候你结婚了吗？
Were you were you married at that point?
因为我能想象，你知道，我退休前一直在企业界工作。
Because I can imagine, you know, I I was in the corporate world before I retired.
我在制药行业当高管。
Was an executive in the pharmaceutical industry.
我简直能想象，有天回家对老婆说，嗨，我回来了。
I could just imagine coming home one day and say, hello, dear.
我不干了。
I'm quitting.
我要去跑超级马拉松。
I'm going to be an ultramarathon runner.
我老婆估计得跟我拼命。
My wife would probably have killed me.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时是结婚的。
I mean, I was married.
我娶的是高中时的初恋。
I married my high school sweetheart.
所以，我们当时也正准备迎接第一个孩子的到来。
So I, we were, having we're expecting our first child as well.
我基本上就跟她说，你知道的，我要放弃那份稳定的月薪，一份不错的薪水。
And I basically said to her, you know, I'm gonna walk away from, a consistent monthly paycheck, you know, a nice paycheck.
我还要放弃我的股票期权，还有奖金。
I'm gonna give away my stock options, you know, my bonuses.
公司给我配了一辆车。
They had given me a company car.
我得把公司的车还回去。
I'm get gonna back the company car.
以后我们就没有医疗保险了。
We're not gonna have health insurance anymore.
公司也不再提供401(k)的匹配缴费了。
We're not gonna have a four zero one k matching program anymore.
她看着我。
And she looked at me.
她
She
说，好的。
said, yeah.
去做吧。
Go for it.
所以她非常支持我。
So she was very supportive.
到了那个阶段，你是不是真的在冒险？
And at that point, you you were really going out on a on a limb?
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，那是1992年。
I mean, this is 1992.
现在嘛，搞副业挺常见的，很多人会做点兼职，确实如此。
And, you know, nowadays, kind of the gig economy, it's it's not that unusual for someone to kinda have a side gig or Yeah.
大家搞个副业很正常，但我这回是彻底辞了职，全身心投入。
You know, you know, pursue a a side profession, but this was a full on commitment.
我是直接辞职不干了，那时候大多数人都是在一家或两家大公司干到退休。
I mean, this is quitting my job, and most people just work for one or two big companies and then retired.
我当时就想着靠跑超马养活自己，你们应该也清楚。
And assuming I was gonna make a a living as an ultramarathoner and you guys probably know.
其实大多数超马比赛，奖金根本没多少，就算你赢了。
I mean, most of these ultramarathons, there's not a big cash purse involved if you
如果你
if you
赢了比赛。
win the race.
但我压根没考虑过这个。
And so I didn't even think about that, though.
我就是想去做，然后就直接去做了。
I just thought I wanna do this and just do it.
这样回答你的问题了吗？就是说我是怎么入行的。
Does that does that answer your question, like, I got into it?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这太棒了。
I mean, I think that's fantastic.
我真惊讶她居然还活着。
I'm surprised she's still alive.
所以我老婆要是知道了，肯定得把我宰了。
So my wife would killed
我要是敢这么干，我老婆肯定饶不了我。
me if I'd done that.
不过我得说，你在书里稍微提过你太太，她给人的感觉是，虽然不像你那样充满激情，但她确实很热爱自己的工作，也很享受现在的生活状态。感觉她对其他事情都挺淡然的，心态很平和。
Although, I have to say that, you know, you talk about your wife a little bit in the book, and she seems, like, very like, she seems to have a bit her not the same passion, but, like, she she really seems to love her job and her place in life, and it almost seems like she's very zen about everything else, I feel like.
你多次参加过的一项赛事是西部100英里越野赛。
One of the things that you did multiple times was Western States one hundred.
对于不了解西部100英里赛的人来说，也许你可以简单介绍一下这是个什么样的比赛。
For people that don't know Western States, you know, maybe you can describe a little bit what it is.
另外，这项比赛到底有什么特别之处？
And, also, just what makes this race so special?
是因为参赛名额限制在369人，所以显得稀缺吗？还是说大家真的就是特别想参加这场比赛？
Like, is it is it a little bit the, the the cap on the number of runners because you can only have 369, or is there really something special that people really just wanna do this race?
对。
Yeah.
我是说，我可能要再讲一遍我的起源故事，有点枯燥，但在那次喝得烂醉、跌跌撞撞走完三十英里之后，我开始跑步，而且挺规律的。
I mean, I'm gonna bore you with another origin story, but, after I finished that 30 mile drunken stumble, I started running, fairly consistently.
我当时觉得自己跑得还挺不错的。
And I thought I was a pretty good runner.
真的，从来没人能超过我。
Like, I was never getting passed by anyone.
我一直都，你知道的，比所有人都快。
I was always, you know, faster than everyone else.
但我那时候并不参加比赛。
And but I wasn't racing.
我只是每天晚上跑五到六英里去金门大桥。
I was just running five or six miles out to the Golden Gate Bridge every night.
然后有一天晚上，我跑过一座小山回家的时候，有两个家伙，简直像另一个物种一样，从我身边嗖地跑过去了，感觉我就像站着没动似的。
And then one evening, as I was coming home running over a hill, these two guys that were almost like different species just ran past me as though I was standing still.
我当时就想，天哪。
And I thought, my god.
我从来没见过这种场面。
I've never seen anything like this.
他们还背着包呢。
And they had packs on as well.
他们一路跑到我们租住的那座山顶上，然后就消失在山的那头了。
And they ran up to the top of the mountain the top of the peak we were renting to, and they just disappeared over it.
我当时想，真想跟那两个人聊聊，但估计再也见不着了。
And I thought, I'd love to talk to those guys, but I'll never see them again.
结果我跑到山顶，发现那两个人居然还在那儿。
Well, I got up to the top, and there these guys were.
他们背着背包，正在做俯卧撑。
They were doing push ups, with their backpacks still on.
他们话不多，但我总算跟他们搭上话了。
And they weren't a talkative bunch, but I I finally got out of them.
他们是在为一场比赛做训练。
They were training for a race.
我就问，那比赛到底有多长啊？
And I said, well, how, you know, how long is the race?
他们说，五十英里。
And they said, well, it's 50 miles.
我说，等等，这太离谱了吧。
And I said, but hold it.
那路上有酒店或者露营地吗？
In in like, are there hotels or campgrounds along the way?
我的意思是，你们在哪休息？
I mean, where where do you stop?
他说，哪儿都没有。
I mean and he he he said, nobody.
枪一响，你就开始跑，直到冲过终点线才停下。
The gun goes off and you start running and you stop when you cross the finish line.
我觉得这简直是我听过的最疯狂的事了。
And I thought that is the most insane thing I've ever heard of.
我非得试试不可。
I gotta try this.
于是我打听到了这场50英里的比赛。
So I I found out about this 50 mile race.
我去参加了那场50英里的比赛，差点把命搭进去。
I went and did this 50 mile race, and it almost killed me.
我是说，我整个人都垮了。
I mean, it I was destroyed.
我永远忘不了完赛时坐在医疗帐篷里的场景，裹着那种锡箔保温毯，一直在发抖。
I'm I'll never forget sitting in the, medical tent at the finish, and I was wrapped in, you know, Mylar blanket, kind of shivering.
你知道的，我身上全是盐渍。
You know, I had salt crust all over me.
然后我看到那两个人，还是那两个人，他们正在互相击掌庆祝。
And I see these two guys, these same two guys, and now they're high fiving each other.
他们还说，我们达标了。
And they're saying, we qualified.
我们达标了。
We qualified.
我心里想，你们到底达标参加什么项目？
And I'm thinking, what'd you qualify for?
是进疯人院吗？
The insane asylum?
你懂的。
You know?
他们说，不是。
And they said, no.
我们成功获得了西部山区一百英里耐力赛的参赛资格。
We, we qualified for the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run.
我说，等一下。
And And I said, hold up.
你说的是一百英里？
Did you say a 100 miles?
就是我们刚跑的两倍远？
Like, twice as far as we just went?
他说，对，一百英里。
He's like, it's a 100 miles.
比赛从一个滑雪场的山脚下开始。
It starts at the base of a a ski resort.
前5英里，你得一路跑到当地最高的山顶，然后剩下的95英里都要在雪山和烈日下穿越群山。
The first five miles, you run right to the top of the highest peak in the area, and then you run through the mountains for 95 more miles through the snow, through the heat.
半夜还得过河。
You cross a river in the middle of the night.
我当时就问，那你们什么时候吃饭？
And I said, when do you eat?
他说，跑着跑着就吃了。
He said, you eat when you run.
我问，那你什么时候睡觉？
I said, when do you sleep?
他说，你不睡觉。
And he said, you don't sleep.
你得在二十四小时内搞定。
You try to do it within twenty four hours.
我当时完全没法理解他说的话。
And I just I could not wrap my head around what he was saying to me.
他们临走前最后跟我说了一句：嘿，伙计。
And the last thing that they said to me as they were walking out is, hey, buddy.
你也达标了。
You qualified as well.
他们这么说的时候，我突然意识到，这真是改变人生的一刻——我必须参加这场比赛。
And when they said that to me, it was one of those life defining moments where I thought, I have to do this race.
如果我不参加，这辈子每天早上醒来，我都会想：我明明达标了，却没勇气去跑。
If I don't do this race, like, for the rest of my life, every morning, I'll wake up thinking I qualified and I didn't have the courage to do this.
于是我开始了解西部山区一百英里耐力赛，以及它为什么这么有名。
So I learned about the Western States one hundred mile endurance run and and why it's such a, an iconic race.
这是历史上第一场全程一百英里的越野跑赛事。
It's it was the first 100 mile foot race on a trail ever.
它的起源其实是一场一百英里的马术比赛。
And the the origins there was that it was a a 100 mile horse race.
有一位骑手身体特别好，比赛前几天他的马突然跛了，他就跟赛事组织者说：我还是会跑完这场比赛。
And one of the horse racers, he was a real fit guy, His horse came up lame a couple days before the race, and he told the race directors, I still am gonna I'm still gonna do the race.
他们问，那你打算怎么跑呢？
And they said, well, how are you gonna do it?
你连匹马都没有。
You don't have a horse.
他说，那我就干脆用跑的。
And he said, I'm just gonna run instead.
他们觉得他简直疯了，但还是让他参加了。他居然跑完了那100英里的越野赛，那是1974年的事。
And they thought he was absolutely nuts, but they let him do it, and he somehow finished his 100 mile, trail race, and that was in 1974.
然后，我报名参加了西部100英里耐力赛，那是1994年的事。
And, I signed up for the Western States one hundred, and that was 1994.
就是那种哪怕到现在，过了三十年，我依然记得比赛中的每一个瞬间。
And it was just one of those things where even now, you know, thirty years later, I remember every moment of that race.
我是说，那些画面深深印在我的脑海里。
I mean, it's etched in my mind.
比赛中的每一分钟，我踩过的每一块石头，我交谈过的每一位志愿者，还有空气拂过皮肤的感觉，跨过河流时紧紧抓住绳索的那一刻，都是人生中那种极其罕见、史诗般的时刻，让人根本忘不了。
Every every minute of that race, every rock I stepped on, every volunteer I talked to, everything is just so the way that the air felt on my skin, you know, crossing the river, holding onto this rope, it it was just one of those moments that, is is so rare and epic in life that you just don't forget it.
所以我得问个有点怀旧的问题。你知道的，1994年的时候，还没有互联网可以报名比赛或者获取赛事信息。那是一场在某个荒郊野外的冷门比赛，几乎没人参加。
So I've I've kind of a little bit of a throwback question because, you know, in 1994, like, we didn't there there was no Internet to sign up for races or even get information about races, and this was some obscure race somewhere, you know, in the middle of nowhere that hardly anybody did.
你是怎么找到更多相关信息的呢？
How did you end up finding more information?
比如，你是怎么完成报名的？
Like, how did you register?
因为我记得90年代跑步的时候，基本上就是填那种小表格，然后寄过去。
Because, you know, I remember running in the nineties, and it was basically you'd fill out these little paper forms, and you'd mail them in.
所以你得事先知道有这场比赛，因为你得想办法拿到报名表。
And so you had to, like, already know that the race existed because you had to somehow get the form for the race.
我记得我当时基本上只参加本地的比赛，所以那会儿挺容易的，但我猜这次比赛不在本地吧。
And so I remember, like, I did basically just local races, So that was easy, but I'm I'm guessing this wasn't local.
对。
No.
不过听到你也经历过同样的事，我真挺高兴的。
But it's I'm glad to hear you went you've experienced the same thing.
我去了一趟图书馆。
I I went to the library.
你还记得杜威十进分类法吗？
And remember the Dewey decimal system?
我试着查了一下，找到了一本外刊。
I tried to do a search, I found an outside magazine.
那本外刊刚创刊不久，里面正好有一篇文章讲了这场赛事。
This was an outside magazine first came out, and there was a story, apparently, in this magazine about this race.
我翻开一看，这辈子都忘不了。
So I opened it up, and I'll never forget.
照片里有个跑者在爬坡，累得几乎要垮了。
There's a picture of a guy who was trying to run up a hill, and he just he he it looked like he was so destroyed.
他根本爬不上去。
He couldn't make it up.
可那根本不是什么陡坡。
And this was not a big hill.
这是快到终点的时候。
This is toward the end.
他爬不上那个坡，看起来特别狼狈，浑身都是泥。
He couldn't get up this hill, and he just looked devastated, dirty.
我当时就想，你真的要参加这个比赛吗？
And I thought, do you really wanna do this race?
不过，他们留了个地址，你知道的，就是报名的地方。
But, they they had an address, you know, where you could register.
所以我就把报名表寄出去了。
So I, I mailed in my entry.
我到现在都记得清清楚楚。
I'll never forget.
后来结果出来了，你知道的，这是个抽签制。
And I got you know, when the it it was a lot it's a lottery.
因为名额有限，想参加的人太多了。
So, there's not enough slots, available for all the racers that wanna enter.
刚开始那会儿，能中签的概率大概是一半一半。
Back when I first started, it was about a fifty fifty chance of getting in.
后来我收到了那封信，说我被录取了。
And, I got the the letter back, saying I was accepted.
所以那时候，全都是通过美国邮政办理的。
So it was, yeah, it was all via US mail.
从那以后，你开始连续完赛，而且名次都很靠前，我想也因此获得了再次受邀参赛的资格。
And after that, you started finishing you you began a run of finishing quite high up in the field and we're able to get, I guess, get reinvited back because of that.
那是比较早的时候。
Those were the younger days.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你能跑进前10名，下一年就能免费参赛。
If you finish in the in the top 10 of the finishers, you get a free entry the next year.
我之所以能完成这么多次比赛，主要原因就是这个。
That's that's one of the reasons I was able to get so many finishes is because because of that.
明白了。
Okay.
现在还是这样吗？
And is that still the case?
现在还给前十名直接提供下一年的参赛资格吗？
Like, do they still give entry for the next year to the top 10?
是的。
Yes?
好的。
Okay.
是的，现在还是这样。
They do.
但现在参赛的人太多了，竞争太激烈了。
The the thing is now is that it's it's so competitive, the field.
现在的竞技水平真的提高了。你知道，在我那个年代，我连续十年都能进前十。
Like, the the level of performance has really increased that you know, back in my day, I could, for, you know, a decade, get a top 10 finish.
现在想做到这点可难了。因为在你连续三四年都进前十之后，新的一批年轻人就冲上来了。
Now, you know, it's hard to do that because after, you know, three or four years of you finishing top 10, you know, this younger crew comes in.
现在想进前十都变得非常困难。
It's it's very hard even finish top 10 anymore.
我挺好奇书里写的，为什么西部100英里赛的参赛人数限制在369人。
I was pretty interested to read in the book why there are only 369 runners allowed in the Western States.
我之前还真不知道这个答案。
I didn't know the, the answer to that.
我一直以为只是参赛名额有限，但你其实在书里详细解释过原因。
I just thought it was just a restricted field, but you actually explained in your book why that's the case.
对。
Yes.
而且，能跑上西部100赛的几率，比考上哈佛还低呢。
And also that the the odds of getting into Western States are are lower than the odds of getting into Harvard.
是的。
Yeah.
真没想到现在居然不再是五五开了。
That's surprise it's not fifty fifty anymore.
没错。
No.
不过我得问你一下。
But let me let me ask you.
我有个问题想问问你们，关于这本书。
What what let me ask you guys a question regarding the book.
你读得开心吗？哪些部分特别让你喜欢？
I mean, did you enjoy it, and what parts did you particularly enjoy?
我平时很少收到反馈，除非去亚马逊上看，但我一般也不去。
And, you know, I don't get much feedback unless I go on Amazon, and and usually don't do that.
你真的喜欢这本书吗？
So did you enjoy the book?
我们确实很喜欢。
We did.
非常喜欢。
Absolutely.
我想想啊。
I guess okay.
这么说吧，先简单介绍一下背景，我这个人比较像那种喜欢一路狂奔的人。
So, like, I guess a little background is, like, I I'm more of a roadrunner.
你知道，我高中时参加过田径队，我喜欢在公路上跑，想看看能不能把自己的成绩再提高一点。
You know, I did track in high school, and and I I like, you know, the road and trying to see if I could better my time.
Alan也喜欢公路跑，但他也会跑很多越野路线，而且他很享受那种感觉。
And Alan likes the road as well, but he does, like, do a lot of trail, and he enjoys that.
所以对我来说，虽然我读过你为了备战西部100英里耐力赛而进行的那些百公里训练的故事，那些经历听起来确实挺让人震撼的，光是想想你经历过的种种就觉得很不可思议。
So for me, like, sometimes even though even though I read the stories of, like, your your 100 k race that you did to prep for the Western States, and it's kind of, like, a bit mind blowing, like like, just doing that and going through some of the experiences you went through.
但我发现你依然让人觉得非常亲切、容易共鸣。
I found that you were still very relatable.
虽然你是个超马界的传奇人物，但我觉得你写得特别真实，把很多普通人心里都会有的想法都讲出来了——比如担心自己在超马圈是不是还跟得上节奏，还能跑多久。这些顾虑我特别能感同身受，毕竟我都42岁了，也在想，我这辈子还能跑进三小时以内吗？
Like, even even though you were you're kind of a ultra trail runner superstar, but I found that the book, like, you you really described well kind of just, I guess, everyday not insecurities necessarily, but thoughts that I think a lot of people have and just about, you know, when you were talking about wondering if you're still relevant in the ultrarunning world as a runner, like, how long can you maintain your career and all those kinds of, I guess, fears that that I I think, like, I could relate to because, you know, I'm 42, and I'm wondering, like, am I ever gonna run this sub three hour marathon?
我也有类似的想法。
And so same kind of thought.
你懂的。
You know?
虽然规模不一样，但你提到的那些问题，比如回望人生时，忍不住问自己：我是不是做对了？
It's just it's not the same scale, obviously, but also, like, all your all your questions about, you know, just, like, sometimes looking back because, you know, you're looking back on your life and you're wondering, like, did I did I do this right?
我是不是个好父亲？
Like, was I a good father?
我觉得这些困惑，其实每个人心里都会有。
And all these things I think that, you know, everybody kind of has.
我就经常有，所以看到你把这些写出来，真的挺让人安心的。
I mean, I know that that I do, so it was, it was nice to sort of see that
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，我们通常把这类话留到最后再说，但既然你问了问题，
I mean, we we we we kind of reserve these sort of comments for the end usually, but you asked us questions.
所以，我的笔记也准备放在最后了。
So, I mean, I've gotten my notes for the end.
你知道的，我们得以看到迪恩作为一个真实的人，而不是那个所谓的‘超级马拉松之神’，而是一个你能产生共鸣的真实个体，而不是那种遥不可及的超人。
You know, we get to see Dean as a real human being rather than as the sort of Ultramarathon Man, but as a as a as a as a real human that you can relate to rather than some superhuman that you can't really relate to.
确实。
Mhmm.
这也是这本书让我感到惊喜的地方。
And that was the thing that that that kind of pleasantly surprised me about the book.
我原本以为会听到一些精彩的冒险故事，但觉得跟自己的生活没什么关系。结果完全不是这样，我其实特别有共鸣，可能正因为没预料到会有这种感受，所以反而更深刻。
I was thinking, oh, I'm gonna hear about wonderful exploits, but I'm I'm gonna be not connected to it at all when, in fact, I was extremely connected to it, probably more so because I wasn't anticipating, that.
我觉得这跟刚才Liz说的意思差不多。
I I think, you know, just another version of what Liz is saying.
其实书里展现的，是你对跑步的热爱，这也是我们大家都共有的情感。
Really, what we see in the book is your love your love for running, which we all share.
所以我们看到的是你对跑步的热爱，而不是对赢比赛或破纪录的执着。
So we see your love for running rather than your love for winning things or achieving records.
书中也体现了这一点，书名《跑者的愉悦》真是再贴切不过了。
We see in the book, you know, and it's aptly named the Runner's High from that point of view.
我们看到的是你对跑步本身、对这个过程的热爱，而我们每个人，其实都是为这个而来的。
We see your your love for the for the actual the act, the process of of running, and, you know, we're all here for that.
读到这些，我觉得这才是让人产生共鸣的地方。
So reading about that, I think that's what makes it relatable.
如果我们顺便聊聊书里的那些话，有句你说过，跑超马能塑造性格，也能暴露性格。
Also, if we wanna if we wanna just jump in and, talk about, like like, quotes, I mean, there was one that you said you said running an ultramarathon builds character, but it also exposes it.
我不知道为什么，但这句话特别打动我，因为我觉得跑步确实就是这样对我们。
And, I don't know why that one, but that one just really kind of sat with me because I think well, running kind of does that to us.
比赛也是，它同样会让我们显露本色。
Racing does that to us.
它还让我忍不住想，如果我跑一场超马，我会展现出怎样的性格？
It also sort of made me wonder, like, what kind of character I would have if I ran an ultramarathon.
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我也不太确定。
So I don't know.
我觉得这本书的文笔特别自然，几乎不用怎么费劲就看完了。
I I found that the the the writing like, the book, I it pretty much read itself, basically.
真的很棒。
It was great.
作为作者，我的目标之一就是让自己隐形，让读者完全沉浸在故事里，根本不会去想作者是谁。
Well, I mean, as a writer, that was one of my goals is just to to get out of the way of myself so they would just you could just read it and not and kind of forget about who the author was or whatever and just get absorbed into the story.
对。
Mhmm.
没错。
Yeah.
而且整本书的叙述很流畅，从当下自然切换到过去，穿插了你人生中的不同片段。
And it it flowed well, you know, from, like, the present to the past and just, like, different moments in your life.
这一点处理得特别好。
It was, it was really good in that way.
当你时隔二十多年再次参加西部山区赛时，有没有想过，也许这次我会在自己的成绩记录里留下一个空白？
Did you think when you were entering Western States again twenty plus years after previously being able to do it successfully, did you think, well, maybe I'm gonna just block my record book here?
我就这么直接去参赛，可能再也达不到以前的水平了——当然，速度肯定没法跟从前比，但更担心的是，我是不是真的已经老了，再也做不到了？
I'm just gonna turn up and maybe not be able to do what it well, certainly, you're not gonna be able to go as fast, but maybe I'm not gonna be able to achieve the way I've achieved in the past, and I'm just gonna prove that I'm an old has been.
你懂的吧？
You know?
那种排队等名额、像普通人一样靠抽签才能参赛的感觉，到底是怎样的？
And and what was it like to be, like, sort of the human way the the normal human waitlisted for the for the entry and those kind of things?
我觉得跑步是最平等的运动，能尊重西部山区赛的抽签制度，不试图走后门，这其实特别好。
I think, you know, running is the most democratic of sports, and I think that honoring the Western States lottery system and not trying to get any special exception to get entered is is is a good thing.
这真的很棒。
It's a beautiful thing.
如果我能跑进前十，那当然最好；还有一种叫‘金票’的途径，就是在其他几项重要赛事里拿到前三名就能直接入围。
It's you know, if I could finish top 10, I would, or there's something else called the golden ticket where you finish top three at a number of these other marquee events.
对。
Mhmm.
这明显更偏向顶尖跑者。
It's it's very skewed toward elite runners, obviously.
以我这个年纪，根本不可能跟那些年轻跑者一较高下。
And, you know, at my age, I'm just there's just no possibility I'm gonna be able to compete with some of the younger, folks.
所以，通过抽签的方式参赛，我觉得挺好的。
So, going through the lottery process, I think, was was a good thing.
而且正如你所说，这让大家看到，我就是一个普通跑者，跑步把我们连在了一起。
And I think it to your point, it shows people that, you know, I'm just a runner, and running is something that unites us.
不管你是不是顶尖选手，或者落在最后，其实都没关系。
It doesn't really matter, you know, if you're an elite or back of the packer.
不管你信什么神，都不重要。
It doesn't matter what god you worship.
不管你是什么肤色，说什么语言，也不重要。
It doesn't matter your skin color, what language you speak.
跑步是我们人类共有的东西，是属于全人类的共同语言。
Running is something we it's a commonality we share as a species, as being human.
所以我一直觉得，跑步的时候，大家都是平等的。
So, I've always thought that, when we run, we're equal.
所以这个抽签流程，我也得像其他人一样去经历。
And so the the lottery process is is just something I have to go through like everyone else.
说到跑步，你曾在补给站遇到过传奇跑者安·特雷森，因为她当时在做志愿者。
Speaking of running, you actually meet a legendary runner, Anne Trason, at one of the aid stations because she was volunteering.
她那会儿并没有参赛。
She wasn't running.
对你来说，那是一种什么样的体验？
Like, what was that like for you?
因为，我听说过安·特雷森这个人。
Because, I mean I mean, I've heard of Anne Tracy.
所以……
And so
她是不是赢过十四次西部山区赛跑之类的？
So she won Western States, like, 14 times or something?
太离谱了。
Ridiculous.
简直不敢相信。
Unbelievable.
我觉得她还几次直接拿了总成绩第一，不只是女子组第一。
And I think she even won it outright a few times, like, you know, first overall, not just first woman.
见到她的时候是什么感觉？后来你们有保持联系吗？
So what was it like to see her, and have you connected with her since?
你知道她现在还在跑吗？
Do you know if she's still running?
是的。
Yeah.
我和安妮确实有点交情。
I mean, I I have a little bit of a relationship with Anne.
我总是跟年轻跑者提起安妮·特雷森，她的名字本该比我有名得多，但我觉得这跟代际有关。
And, you know, I always remind young runners about Anne tracing because her name is not you know, her name should be definitely more widely known than mine, but I think it's a generational thing.
她是个挺复杂的人，我觉得她自己也会承认这一点。
She's a complex character, and and I think she'd admit it herself.
我是说，像她那样地位的人，一旦不再拥有那种地位，这种落差确实很难接受。
I I will say that, you know, for someone of her status to not be her status anymore, it's a hard reckoning.
对我来说都挺难的，我还没拿过12次西部100呢，我记得她好像拿过。
I mean, it's hard for me, and I I haven't won Western States, you know, 12 times I think she won it.
所以，你要怎么从那种一直站在领奖台顶端的位置过渡过来呢？
So, how do you make the transition from, you know, being someone that's always at the top of the podium?
我常跟人说，如果你不讨厌输，你就永远赢不了。
And, I mean, there's a saying that I have that, you know, you'll you'll never win if you don't hate losing.
当年我跟她赛跑时了解到的安妮就是这样，她特别讨厌输。
And what I knew of Anne when I raced against her is, I mean, she just hated losing.
她肯定也享受赢的感觉，但我认为真正驱动她的是那种对失败的厌恶。
I'm sure she enjoyed winning, but I think more the hate of losing drove her.
所以当她开始输的时候，以她那样的性格，心理上肯定承受了巨大的压力。
And so when she started losing, psychologically, it must have weighed heavy on her with that sort of personality.
她非常有竞争心，不只是和自己较劲，也和别人一较高下。
And, you know, she was very competitive and, not just with herself, but with others as well.
所以，对她来说，这种转变一定特别艰难。
So I'm sure it was a heavy transition for her to go through.
你可能会说，这种时候该找心理医生或治疗师帮忙。
And there you know, you can see someone for that, you know, maybe a psychologist or a therapist.
但除非你亲身经历过这种事，否则你说的话听起来都会有点空洞。
But unless someone has really lived that experience, you know, it's their words are gonna be somewhat hollow.
能真正体会安·特拉辛这种经历的人，少之又少。
And there's not a lot of people that have lived the experience of Anne Tracin.
那你怎么去开导她呢？
So, you know, how do you how do you counsel her?
你怎么和她交谈，理解她的挣扎？
How do you, you know, talk with her and and relate to her struggles?
真的能做得到的人，屈指可数。
You know, there there are very few people that can.
在西部州那短暂的相处中，我就觉得她还是那个她。
And it just seemed like in the few moments we spent together at Western States, she's still there.
你懂的。
You know?
她身上那种魅力依然还在，哪怕现在更多是做志愿者，但就是这种状态，重新点燃了我继续前行的动力。
There there's there's still this charm about her, even though it's more in a volunteering role, that that, you know, just reinvigorated me to keep going.
我看到了安妮·特雷西最棒的一面。
And, you know, I I saw the best side of Anne Tracy.
你说的问题嘛，其实我知道安妮这个人。
I guess your question, I mean, it's it's she's I know Anne.
她确实是个很复杂的人。
She's she's definitely a complex individual.
我想她是想跟越野跑保持联系，但要她参赛却不赢，对她来说真的很难。
I guess she's trying to, stay connected to ultrarunning, and to running, but baby has a hard time, I guess, competing and not not winning.
她其实有自己的教练工作，帮过很多人。
Well, she I mean, she has, a coaching practice, and she certainly helped a lot of people.
我想帮她把教练事业发展起来，因为我知道，能有安·特雷西当教练有多棒。
And her I'm trying to help her grow I've tried to help her grow her coaching practice because I know, you know, what a thrill to have Anne Tracy as as a coach.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
尤其是对女性来说。
Especially for, I think, women.
女性有更多女性教练，这真是太好了。
Like, to have more more female coaches for women is is amazing.
说实话，这样的教练确实太少了。
I mean, sure, there's there's not enough of them.
从书里能听出来，你在补给站突然遇到安娜，确实受到了很大的鼓舞和激励。
I certainly sounded in the book like you got an injection of inspiration and, motivation from, you know, having the surprise visit from Anna at the aid station.
我想这也推动了你的名气，还有你的激励作用。
And and I guess that also kicks to to your to your fame and and your your the motivational factor.
我们在书里和现实中都看到，经常有人跑过来跟你说，通常是‘卡诺’之类的，然后接着告诉你，你是他们参与的原因之一，或者是他们想参加这个活动的主要动力，或者是你激励了他们去做这件事。
We see on a number of occasions, and we see in the book as well, that there are people who come up to you and go, usually, Karnau or something like that, and and then proceed to tell you that, you know, oh, you were one of the reasons I got in or you were the primary reason why I wanted to do this event, or you motivated me to do this.
这挺酷的。
That's kinda cool.
但当你身处西部100赛的中段，正经历着自己特有的艰难时刻时，你会不会感到纠结，心想‘天哪’。
But when you're in the middle of Western States and you're struggled doing your own particular struggle, are you conflicted between oh god.
我真希望自己能再低调点，这样就能专心处理自己的痛苦了，而不是像个名人似的，成了Ultra里最接近明星的那个人。
I wish I was just a bit more anonymous so I could get on with my personal suffering, you know, versus being, I don't know, a celebrity and the nearest thing Ultra has got to a celebrity.
确实。
Yeah.
这是个挺有意思的问题。
It's an interesting question.
而且你知道，我是个内向的人。
And, you know, I'm an introvert.
我性格挺内向的。
I'm a pretty strong introvert.
所以，只要不在人群里，我几乎就跟隐居似的。
So, I'm I'm almost like a hermit when I'm not in, groups of people.
而且，你也知道，我多少有点在意别人的看法。
And I'm also, you know, somewhat self conscious.
不过，那些主动找我聊天的人，都是些很棒的人。
And the the people that come up to me, I should say, are great people.
比如，在机场有人走过来跟我说，天哪。
Like, when someone comes up to me in the airport and says, oh my god.
你知道，你是迪恩·卡纳泽斯，你帮了我，或者改变了我的生活。
You know, you're Dean Karnazes, and you really helped me or you changed my life.
遇到这样的人，心里挺暖的。
It's a good person.
这感觉不像我是个摇滚明星，周围围着一群狂热粉丝那样。
It's it's not like a like, I'm a rock star that has a bunch of groupie fans.
我的意思是，这些人都值得我专门跑去和他们一起跑步。
I mean, these are people I'd, like, I'd wanna go running with.
是的。
Yeah.
在这方面，我觉得自己特别幸运。
So I feel blessed in that regard.
但你知道吗，当你跑了七十英里，鼻涕直往下流，食物卡在喉咙里，乳头都磨破了，还急着找地方上厕所，这时候有人跑来要合影，真得靠强大的意志力才能回过神来，笑着说‘行，你拍吧’。
But, you know, when you're 70 miles into a race and you you got snot coming out of your nose, you got food and you're stuck in your tea, and your nipples are bleeding, and, you know, you've you've got to go take a poop and someone wants to do a selfie, it it takes a lot of discipline to kind of come back and say, oh, you can do this.
对。
Yeah.
但这确实给一些比赛增添了额外的挑战。
But it does definitely add another element of, of challenge to some of these races.
是的。
Yeah.
我读这本书的时候，也有点能体会到那种感觉。
I I was kinda getting that feeling when I was reading the book on
对。
Mhmm.
给那人点面子吧。
Give the guy a break.
你懂的。
You know?
他这会儿正遭罪呢。
He's going through hell here.
我的意思是，他们出发点都是好的。
Well, I mean, they're they're well intentioned.
你知道的，他们出发点都是好的。
You know, they're well intentioned.
而且，如果你曾经在补给站工作过，你就会知道，那时候你整个人都精神抖擞。
And, you know, if you've ever worked at an aid station, you know that, you know, you you're you're fresh as a daisy.
所以，你很难真正理解那些在赛道上跑了十四个或十五个小时的人正在经历什么。
So you don't you can't really relate to what someone who's, you know, been out there for fourteen or fifteen hours is is going through.
当他们进来时，看起来像个僵尸，你知道的，你精力充沛。
When they come in and look like a zombie, you know, you have so much energy.
你只是想试着让他们振作起来。
You just wanna try to lift them up.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
说到超马的时长，感觉有个后勤团队确实挺重要的。
I I guess speaking of, just, like, how long ultras are, it seems like having a crew is very important.
而且书里提到，你儿子最后那场 races 还给你做了后勤。
And, in the book, actually, your son ends up crewing you for for this this last race.
我知道书里大部分时间你都不太放心他，因为他看起来没把这事儿当回事，但最后他却给了你个大惊喜。
And I I know, like, you you were you were not really sure about that situation throughout most of the book because he didn't seem to take it seriously, but then seemed to really surprise you at the end.
你想聊聊为什么后勤团队这么重要吗？
I don't know if if you wanna just talk about, like, why like, how important is it to have a crew?
还有一个相关的问题，有人能不靠补给队，完全依赖八个补给站完成超马吗？
And maybe follow-up question is, can anybody run an Ultra without a crew and just relying on the eight stations?
是的。
Yeah.
我先回答你最后那个问题。
I I'll answer that first that last question first.
我经常这么跑。
I do it all the time.
你知道，我已经跑过好几次了。
You know, I've I've run a number.
事实上，我最近两次200英里的比赛都没带补给队。
The in fact, the last 200 mile races I've done, I haven't had a crew.
好吧。
And Okay.
我其实更喜欢这样。
I actually prefer it.
但有些比赛，比如西部极限赛，有后勤团队本身就是比赛文化的一部分。
But some races, like Western States, it's just the the whole lore of having your crew.
这已经超越了个人范畴，成了更宏大的事情。
It's it's almost it's it's a bigger thing than one person.
我知道那场比赛非常依赖社区氛围。
I know that that race is very, like, community driven.
所以我刚才提到的那两百英里，就是我完全靠自己完成的。
So, the last those 200 miles I'm referring to where I just did it self supported.
嗯，我不该说是完全靠自己，因为沿途有补给站。
Well, I shouldn't say self supported because there are aid stations along the way.
所以我是没有配速员也没有后勤团队的情况下完成的。
So I I did it without a crew and with no pacers.
在西部100英里赛中，如果没有后勤团队和配速员，这种情况非常罕见。
At Western States, it's that'd be highly unusual for someone to run it without a crew and without a pacer.
几乎所有人都会在西部100英里赛中使用配速员。
Almost everyone uses a pacer at Western States.
你知道的，我讲这个故事的方式是这样的：我选了西部州赛。
The the thing with, you know, the the way I told the story you know, you I I chose Western States.
我选了主教高 Sierra 一百英里赛，只是觉得它们能串起一个故事线索。
I chose the Bishop High Sierra one hundred just because I thought they kind of led to a narrative thread of a story.
我觉得要讲好一个故事，你得把别人也卷进来。
And I think to to tell a good story, you know, you have to involve others.
不能光讲你自己和你的挣扎。
It can't just be only about you and your struggles.
我觉得是家人。
I think, family.
我是希腊裔，我总会想到荷马和奥德修斯。
I mean, I'm I'm Greek, and I always go back to Homer and, you know, Odysseus.
他一直在努力回到家人身边。
He's always trying to get back to his family.
所以我也想在我的故事里融入家人的元素。
So I want to involve my family in the storytelling.
而且你知道，如果你是个家长，你就会发现孩子挺有意思的。你以为你挺了解你儿子或女儿，结果突然他们做了件事，让你心里一惊：等等，这是怎么回事？
And, you know, if you're a parent, you know that kid kids are interesting because you think you know your your son or daughter, and all of a sudden they do something, and you're like, hold it.
这反应是从哪儿冒出来的？
Where'd that come from?
要想看到这种意想不到的表现，就得把他们推出舒适区，放到新环境里，看看他们的技能在新的情境下是怎么运用的，或者看看他们到底缺哪些能力。
And to have those kind of reveals, you have to take them out of their comfort zone and put them in new environments where you're seeing their skills being applied in a different sort of way or lack thereof of skills.
所以我想，咱们不如借此机会，多了解了解你儿子，看看你以前可能没发现的一面。
So I thought, you know, let's let's let's learn a little bit more about your son than you probably knew before.
我让他帮我招募，或者他主动提出帮我招募，我就接受了。
And I asked him to or he actually volunteered to recruit for me, and I accepted.
这挺好的。
That's pretty nice.
我觉得这是故事里很不错的一部分，就是沿途遇到的人。
I think that was a good aspect to the story, the the people you meet along the way.
那个法国 guy 挺有意思的，我看得挺开心。
I was quite, entertained by the the French guy.
从法国跑到西部赛事来的人本来就不多，但那个从你身后赶上来、一直让你烦得不行的法国人，你一开始还觉得他真是典型的法国人。
You don't get many people coming over from France actually to the Western States, but the French guy who came up behind you and was annoying the hell out of you to begin with, and you thought, oh, he's being a stereotypical French guy.
我后来还真去查了比赛成绩，想看看他是谁。
Does this guy I actually looked him up on the results.
结果发现他叫法布里斯，准确地说，应该是法布里斯·佩兰。
You find out he's called Fabrice, but but he's actually, I think, Fabrice Perrin.
他知道自己在你的书里被塑造成法国刻板印象的角色了吗？
Does he know he has a cameo in your book as the French stereotype?
这太搞笑了。
That's so funny.
不知道。
No.
我觉得他应该不知道。
I I don't think he does.
其实我连他叫什么都没去查过。
In fact, I I didn't I didn't even look up his name.
我只记得跟他聊过天。
I just remember talking with him.
你知道的，在越野跑过程中，你总会遇到一些有意思的人。
And, you know, it's one of those during an alter, you have these interesting encounters with people.
不过我得为他辩解一下，如果你去过欧洲，尤其是法国，这可能只有超马跑者才有共鸣，那边的越野跑文化跟这里差别挺大的。
And I've gotta I've gotta say in his defense, it's the if you've ever been to Europe, and this is probably more something for Ultramarathoners to relate to, the the trail running culture over there is very different, especially in France.
欧洲毕竟是个很大的地方。
And Europe is a big place.
但不知怎么的，跑这些比赛的时候，其他选手会追上来，离你特别近。在一百英里的长距离跑道上，大家本来应该拉开距离，但他们就死死跟在你后面。
But for some reason, when you're running these these races, these other racers come up behind you, and they just are, like, within a breath away from you behind you on a on a 100 mile footpath where that's very spread out, and they just stay there.
我不觉得他们觉得自己很烦人。
And I don't know what I I don't think they think they're being annoying.
我觉得这可能只是文化习惯，大家平时都这么跑。
I think it's just kinda culturally that's what you do.
但对我来说，我不喜欢有人跟在后面跑，还一直听到脚步声。
But for me, I don't like having someone running behind me and hearing footsteps behind me.
这让我有点想，我是不是该往旁边让一让？
It kinda makes me think, should I move over?
他们会不会撞到我？
Are they gonna run me over?
我是不是跑得太慢了？
Am I going too slow?
我是不是跑得太快了？
Am I going too fast?
不过我觉得这更多是文化差异，而不是他故意惹人烦。
But I think that's just more of a cultural thing than him being obnoxious.
对。
Yeah.
不是的。
No.
我想大家通常会说，嘿。
I guess the tendency is to say, hey.
你想过来的话就过来吧，然后他们就会说，哦，不用了。
Just come through if you want, and then they go, oh, no.
不用。
No.
不用。
No.
没关系。
It's okay.
你懂的？
You know?
真是的。
Damn.
你去过那儿。
You've been there.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你去过那里。
You've been there.
对。
Yeah.
那挺有意思的。
That that that was pretty entertaining.
我就不细说了，但读过这本书的人，自然会把整个故事了解清楚。
I I won't I won't go into the details, but, you know, people who read the book, they'll they'll get the whole story.
你懂的。
You know?
另外，我想这也是因为文化差异造成的误解。
And and, I guess, a misconception as well based on cultural differences.
对。
Yeah.
你为那本真正的书写西部州赛事时，有一件事我记得挺清楚的，就是天气特别热。
One of the things about the Western States that you did the the for this for the for the actual book is, if I remember rightly, it was extremely hot.
你确实也提到了天气热，不过我想那边本来就很热吧。
And you do talk about it being hot, but I guess they're all hot.
但我记得当时热得有点反常，而且你好像从一开始就遇到了不小的挑战。
But I think it was unnaturally warm, and and you seem to get into quite a challenge quite early on.
我记得大概跑了20英里之后，你就开始提到感觉训练不足，或者说是被热浪给影响了。
I think after about 20 miles, you start talking about, oh, starting to feel a lack of training or the heat.
你有没有想过，也许这根本成不了书？
Did you think maybe, maybe this is not gonna be a book after all?
因为如果我在30英里或者35英里处退赛，我就不会写关于这件事的书了。
Because if I have to drop out at 30 miles or 35 miles, I'm not gonna be writing a book about it.
你有没有害怕过？有没有想过？
Did you did you fear did you think?
还是说，伟大的迪恩·卡纳泽斯不会这么想？
Or does doesn't Dean Karnazes the great Dean Karnazes think like that?
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，当时我根本没想到会把这场比赛写进书里。
Well, I mean, to be honest, I I didn't know I was gonna at the time, I didn't know I was gonna in incorporate, that particular race into
这本书。
the book.
是的。
Yeah.
我跑这场比赛的时候，压根没打算写一章关于它的内容。
It wasn't it wasn't like I was running the race knowing I was gonna write a chapter about it in the book.
我觉得，一场糟糕的比赛反而比一场顺利的比赛更有故事性。
So it did it I think that a a bad race is a better story than a good race.
你懂吧？
Know?
一场顺利的比赛，冲过终点后也就互相击个掌而已。
A good race, you kinda just high five at the finish and
是的。
Yeah.
你
You
明白吧。
know?
对。
Uh-huh.
那场
That
一切都太神奇了。
It's all magical.
是的。
Yeah.
那场三个小时零五秒的马拉松，你一辈子都忘不了。
That three hour and five second marathon is the one you're gonna remember forever.
对吧？
Right?
所以你知道的，确实挺让人意外的。
So I that's, you know, that that's and, yeah, it was shocking.
我不清楚那场比赛到底出了什么问题，但我当时期望很高，结果却完全没达到。
I I don't know what went wrong at at that particular race, but I had pretty high expectations, and they were very much not fulfilled.
所以我觉得这又是一种很人性化的体验。
So I think that's again, it's it's a very human experience.
对吧？
Right?
你一开始满怀很高的期待，结果突然之间，事情完全没按预期发展。
You you set out with with lofty expectations, and all of a sudden, it doesn't happen.
那你该怎么应对呢？
And how do you deal with it?
你知道的，面对这种失望，你该怎么调整心态？
You know, how how do you deal with the disappointment?
对我来说，我也会跟自己较劲。
You know, to me, I'm competitive with myself as well.
比如你跑了一个三小时零五分或者三小时十分的马拉松，因为没跑进三小时而感到失望。这时候你其实可以想想，好歹我跑完了全程马拉松，这可是绝大多数人一辈子都做不到的事。
And, you know, to be disappointed that you just ran a, you know, a three zero five marathon or whatever, three ten because you didn't crack three hours, you know, at at a at a point, you you kinda say, well, I did finish a marathon, and that kinda is something 99.99% of the population will never do.
确实是这样。
Yeah.
我觉得我儿子尼古拉斯当时跟我说的也是这个意思。
I think that's kinda like what my son, Nicholas, said to me.
我说，好吧，尼克，你知道的，我跑在中间位置。
I said, well, Nick, I, you know, I I finished mid pack.
他说，爸，你可是刚跑完一百英里啊。
He's like, dad, you just ran a 100 miles.
这就够了。
Enough said.
你刚跑完一百英里呢。
You just ran a 100 miles.
是的。
Yeah.
这让你看得更清楚了。
Puts it in perspective for you.
对。
Yeah.
我们刚才聊了尼古拉斯，但你团队里的另一部分人——你父母，好像也总是跟着你到处跑。
And, so we talk about Nicholas, but the other part of your crew, and it seems like they follow you everywhere, are your parents.
他们简直就像是你最大的粉丝。
It seems like they're almost like your biggest fan.
他们一直有参加你所有的比赛吗？
Like, have they always come to all your races?
如果没有，那是什么时候开始的？
And if not, when did that start?
是的。
Yeah.
没有。
No.
是从1994年的西部山区耐力赛开始的。
It started with with the Western States in 1994.
那是我第一次参加，从那以后他们每一场西部山区赛都去了。
It's my very first, and they've been to every single Western States.
天哪。
Wow.
不管有没有邀请，他们都会来。
Invited or not, they're yeah.
我的意思是，我们全家都一路陪着我走过来，我妻子也不例外。
I mean, we've we've all of us have been along for this journey, my wife included.
其实1994年我跑西部山区赛的时候，本来想找个帮手，但我妻子那时候正在读牙医学校，正好那周末要考牙医执照。
So, you know, the story was I did want someone to try to crew for me in 1994 when I ran Western States, but my wife was not she was in dental school, and she had her her dental boards that same weekend.
更别说她那时已经怀孕六个月了。
Not to mention, she was six months pregnant.
所以我们觉得她不太适合去，于是我父母主动请缨。
So we didn't think it was a good idea for her to go, so my parents volunteered.
这对他们来说，也跟我一样，是一次全新的体验。
It it was, you know, it was an awakening for them as well as for me.
更有意思的是，我老婆后来实在受不了了。
And, ironically, my wife decided she couldn't stand it.
于是她在两场考试中间，趁着半夜赶过来，结果车还在半路上抛锚了。
So she drove up in the middle of the night after after one board and before the next board, and her car broke down on the side of the road.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，那简直就是一场闹剧。
So, I mean, it was just like a a comedy of errors.
但正是这些经历造就了最难忘的回忆。
But, I mean, those make for the most unforgettable experiences.
是的。
Yeah.
从小范围来说，我和莉兹经常聊起，嘿。
On a small scale, Liz and I always talk about, hey.
你做了这么多事，然后去参与一个活动，要么取得一些成功，要么收获一些特别精彩的故事。
You do all these things, and then you take you take on an event, and you either get some success or you get some really good stories.
我喜欢这个说法。
I like that.
对。
Yeah.
我希望自己能少点坎坷，多点成功。
I wish I could have, like, less stories and have more success
靠你自己。
by you.
少点折腾，多点成功，那就更好了。
And less learning and a bit more success would be good.
对。
Yeah.
我想，既然书里提到了，那我就有点理由稍微聊聊这件事了。
I guess, you know, it comes up in the book, so it kinda gives me permission to talk about it a little bit.
不过，说起来挺让人难过的，你妹妹帕里斯在大约三十年前的一场车祸中去世了，当时她才18岁。
But, you know, tragically, you you lost, your sister, Paris, in in a car accident about thirty years ago when she was only 18.
她在你的书里出现过，特别是在你跑完超长距离越野赛结束时那些毫无保留、最真实的内心独白里，还有那些特别触动人的瞬间。
She comes up in your the rawness of your thoughts at the ends of ultras, the end of the ultra that you were doing, the particular sort of raw moments.
你能跟我们讲讲她，以及她到现在对你产生的影响吗？
Can you tell us a little bit about her and the effect that she has on you even now?
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，她在我那本《超马男人》的第一版里占了很大篇幅，因为我们曾是最好的朋友，也是最亲密的知己。
I mean, she she was a big part of my first book of Ultramarathon Man, in that we were best friends, closest confidants.
你知道的，我比她大几岁，而且，你知道，她去世已经很久了。
You know, I was a couple years older than her, and, you know, she died a long time ago.
她在十八岁生日那天因车祸去世，当时我二十一岁。
She died, on her eighteenth birthday in a car accident, and I was 21 at the time.
我经历了哀悼的所有阶段。
And I went through all of the cycles of bereavement.
你知道，一开始我拒绝接受，然后我对所有人，包括我自己，都充满了愤怒。
You know, I was in denial at first, and then I was angry at everyone, including myself.
接着，我转向了酒精。
And and then I turned to the bottle.
我是说，我靠着喝酒度日，差不多有十年，因为只有在醉酒时，我才能从痛苦中麻木。
I mean, I I crawled into a bottle for almost ten years because drinking was the only time I felt numb numb from the pain.
后来在西岸越野赛上，我下定决心，纪念她最好的方式就是每一天都活得精彩充实。
And then finally, I you know, at at Western States, I decided, you know, the best thing you can do to honor her is to live every day to its fullest.
把她放在心里，这就是她能留下的遗产，而不是我那种因她离去而产生的苦涩和怨恨。
Keep her in your heart, and that's, you know, that's the legacy that she will carry versus these these bitter harsh feelings that I had that she was gone.
所以，当我想通这一点后，我的生活和她在我心中的形象都真的变得更好了。
So once I came to that realization, it it really improved, my life and, my thoughts about her.
不知道你们有没有过类似的经历？这件事发生在我四十多年前，我不想暴露年龄，但确实是很早以前的事了。
And, you know, it it I don't know if if you guys have had this experience, but, I mean, this this happened I don't wanna date myself, but, you know, it was it was more than forty years ago.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，每一天我都没有忘记她。
And, you know, there's not a day that goes by.
我每天都在想她。
I haven't thought about her.
整整四十年，一天都没落下。
Not a single day in forty years.
有时候，我跑步的时候，会花上几个小时来回忆。
And, you know, sometimes it's a couple hours while I'm out running.
我就会想起我们在一起的那些时光。
I just think about our our times together.
而有时候，哪怕只是在机场待上一两分钟，她依然感觉离我很近。
And other other times, it might just be a minute or two as I'm, you know, in an airport, but, she's still very much with me.
这就是这件事带给我的情感触动。
And, you know, I mean, that that's, you know, the emotional, element of it.
但另一方面，我得想想怎么把这段感情融入这本第五部作品里，毕竟这本书是在她去世很久之后才写的。
But the other element is, you know, how do I incorporate that, you know, that relationship into this fifth book that's now, you know, well after her passing?
我该怎么把她写进故事里呢？她在我生命中依然占据着非常重要的位置。我希望写得真实自然，不显得俗套，同时又能打动读者，让他们感受到他确实经历了一段刻骨铭心的痛苦。
How do I bring her into the story since she's such an important part of my life still in a way that's authentic, that doesn't come off as trite, but still has impact so that you get a sense, like, he did suffer something.
很高兴你提到这一点，因为我不想在这本第五部作品里只是草草地写个一两段就把她带过。
And, you know, I'm I'm glad you brought that up because I I don't want people in this fifth book where it's just a couple paragraphs, I think, that I mentioned her.
我不想让她的存在被轻描淡写地忽略掉。
I don't want that to get lost.
挺感人的。
That's cool.
谢谢。
Thanks.
感觉那会儿跟你爸爸之间有个特别重要的时刻。
It seemed like it was, it was a really important moment with your dad.
那种感觉就像你们俩心里都清楚对方在想什么，而且都在想着她。
It was sort of like it was almost like you both you both knew what you were thinking, and you were thinking about her.
对。
Yeah.
那会儿的感觉挺自然的。
It was pretty intuitive moment.
我是说，你知道，另一次离世带来的冲击真的很深。
I mean, you know, the the other death is profound.
而且，我觉得让我跟我爸关系更近的一件事是，我亲眼看着他因失去她而痛苦。
And, you know, I I think the other thing that, you know, has brought my dad and I closer is I've watched his pain from losing her.
有句老话说，对父母来说最痛苦的事莫过于失去孩子，而他遭遇的正是这种最糟糕的情况。
I mean, the, you know, the the worst there's a saying that the, you know, the worst thing that can happen to a parent is to lose a child, and the worst thing that could happen to him happened to him.
他对她的爱非常深。
And, you know, he loved her so deeply.
看着他承受痛苦，看着他如何成熟并走出阴影，我觉得这让我们俩的关系更加紧密了。
And to watch his suffering and to watch how he matured and and got beyond it, I think, brought us definitely closer together.
他确实是个很特别的人。感觉不管带他去哪儿，他都能在几分钟内了解周围所有人的情况。
It actually seems like he is a pretty special guy because it seems like you can like, he's one of those people you can bring him anywhere, and he's gonna he's gonna know everything about all the other people within, like, you know, minutes of of being there.
感觉他特别擅长社交，喜欢跟人打交道，能让每个人都感到开心，而且能很快融入团队。
It's it seem just seems like he's super social and, loves people and makes everyone feel good and incorporates himself, into the group.
我觉得我很想跟你爸一起在补给站待着。
I think I'd like to hang out at an aid station with your dad.
我敢打赌。
I bet you.
我敢打赌，肯定有听众会说："我就是。"
I just bet that someone listening to this is going, I did.
因为有人跟我说过这样的话。
Because I have people say that to me.
比如，他们说：哦，我见过你爸爸了。
Like, oh, I met your dad.
我就问：什么时候的事？
I'm like, when was that?
他们说：哦，大概是1985年吧。
And they're like, oh, it's 1985, I think.
对。
Yeah.
这太酷了。
That's very cool.
是的。
Yeah.
他是那种让人印象特别深的人。
He's one of those guys that stays with you.
对。
Yeah.
所以呢，我就不剧透太多细节了，但在西部100英里越野赛中，我觉得只要你在规定时间内完赛，就能拿到一枚铜质腰带扣。因为比赛最后有个‘黄金一小时’的规则，你得在30小时内冲线才算正式完赛。
So you get you get a, I don't wanna give too much of the story away, but in Western States, I think you get you get a you get a bronze buckle for finishing, like, in ahead of the cutoff because they have, like, a golden hour at the end with where you gotta get in under thirty hours to to to be a finisher.
那如果跑进24小时以内，是不是就能拿银质的？
Do you get a silver one for for being quicker under 24?
我看你手里攒了不少银质腰带扣啊。
You've got a whole bunch of these silver buckles.
你有十个了。
You got 10 of them.
那五十岁以后拿的铜扣，是不是比巅峰时期拿的银扣更有意义、更珍贵？
So is a bronze buckle at age 50 plus sweeter and more valuable than a silver buckle in your in your peak?
我觉得，就是一个扣子而已。
I think it it's a buckle.
你知道的。
You know?
我的意思是，我觉得……
I I mean, I I think
两个都……
They both they both
我本来以为自己能跑进二十小时以内，想打破年龄组纪录，结果最后花了将近二十七个小时。
I think I was gonna run the I thought I was gonna potentially run the race in sub twenty hours, you know, and and set a new record for the age group and ended up being, you know, like, twenty seven hours.
所以，说实话，离跑进三小时马拉松差得远了。
So, you know, I was very, very far from cracking the three hour marathon, if you will.
还有那位做了很久的赛事解说员，是我的老朋友约翰·梅廷格。
And the, the race announcer, who's been the race announcer forever, is an old friend of mine, John Mettinger.
他见证了我的职业生涯。
And, you know, he's watched my career.
我也看着他的发展，我们俩是老交情了。
I've watched his career, and we're we're old buddies.
对，当我绕着跑道跑的时候，他就在广播里播报了。
And, yeah, he, you know, he was as I was coming around the track, they they announced it.
他们把比赛最后的环节安排得特别到位。
It they really stage it well the way the race is finished.
终点设在一个高中田径场上。
You finish on a high school track.
对。
Yeah.
现场还有解说员，你冲线的时候他会实时播报。
And they have, like, an announcer, and they announce as you come in.
大多数跑者都是和家人、队友一起冲过终点线的。
And most of the runners run with their crew and their family members to the finish line.
所以他当时就在解说，说我快冲过终点了，还开了个带刺的玩笑，说你现在有12枚银牌了，现在却拿了个铜牌。
So he was he was announcing, you know, me coming into the finish line, and he made a he made a snide reference that, you know, like, you've got 12 silver buckles, and now you have a bronze.
大概意思就是，变老了是什么感觉之类的？
How's it feel getting older kinda thing?
我当时稍微抬头看了一眼。
And I kinda looked up.
我看到他在上面，就冲他指了指，因为我知道大多数人可能根本注意不到，但我清楚那一下是故意戳他。
I saw him up there, and I pointed my finger at him because I knew most people, that would just kinda fly over their head, but I knew it was like a sharp jab.
就像在说，嘿。
Like, hey.
你老了啊，兄弟。
You're getting old, buddy.
又老又慢。
Old and slow.
对。
Yeah.
不过还是乐在其中，或者说至少还有动力。
But still enjoying it or at least still motivated.
我是说，我觉得对这项运动来说，只要有人愿意继续参与，这就是好事。
I mean, I guess, you know, it it's it's a something for the sport if people just wanna keep on doing it.
是的。
Yeah.
我打算跑一百英里，几周后如果有兴趣的话，大家可以一起来。
I got a 100 miles I'm a 100 miler in a couple weeks if you guys wanna join me.
哇，太厉害了。
Oh, wow.
好的。
Yeah.
我们可以在训练间隙把这事安排上。
We'll just squeeze the training in between.
我们不行。
We can't.
我们要去摩押。
We have we're going to Moab.
哦，那我们有充分的理由了。
Oh, we have a good excuse.
对。
Yeah.
去参加莫阿布的那个Run the Rocks三天赛事。
To, run the run the rocks three day event in Moab.
那是什么时候？三月还是四月？
When is that in April or in, March?
在三月份。
It's in March.
对。
Yeah.
三月三号、四号和五号。
March, third, fourth, and fifth.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
那这是个竞技比赛，还是更像休闲越野跑？
And is a is it a competitive event, or is it more like run touring?
算是竞技性质的吧，因为会有人专门去比赛。
I it's competitive in in that, like, people will be there competing.
三天下来会算一个总时间。
You'll get a combined time over three days.
这是比赛。
It's race.
所以这确实是个比赛。
So it is a race.
没错，是比赛。
It is a race.
是的
Yeah.
这是一场赛事。
It's a race.
不过，我相信很多人只是想去体验一下，就像我们一样，顺便看看摩押的风光。
But, I I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are just gonna go there to do it and, and and see Moab kind of like us.
我的意思是，你知道的。
I mean, you know
如果你了解由凯文·麦克唐纳和胡达组织的‘落基山脉穿越跑’，那是个六天的分段赛。
If you know the, Trans Rockies run, organized by, Kevin McDonald, Huda, which is a six day stage race.
这个新项目是他的心血之作。
This is his new baby.
这是他第一次在摩押举办为期三天的分段赛。
It'll be the first year that he's done a three day stage race in in Moab.
对。
Yeah.
我参加过Trans Rockies，大概有五六次吧。
I've run, Trans Rockies, I think, a handful of times, maybe five or six times.
我参加过两次。
I've done I've done two.
对。
So Yeah.
我确实参加过。
I did it
有点慢。
Bit slow.
我参加了。
I did
我第一年就去参加了。
I did it the first year.
我觉得他们办第一届的时候我就去了。
I think I did it the first year they had it.
所以第一年只有团体赛。
So it was only a team race back then, the first year.
我记得好像还是两人一队，对吧，Alan？
I think isn't it still a still a two person team, Alan?
不是。
No.
你可以单人参加，也可以两人组队。
You can do singles, or you can do two two two man teams.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
说到跑步，书的结尾部分，你好像写了一个小结章节，描述了疫情爆发时你在哪里，以及你是怎么应对的，因为你原本计划参加米沃克100英里越野赛。
So speaking of running, at the end of the book, you have, like, kind of, like, a little conclusion chapter where you describe where you were when the pandemic hit and how you dealt with it because you were supposed to run the Miwok one 100.
后来比赛取消了，但你还是背着背包自己跑完了全程。
And then you ended up it ended up being canceled, but you ran it anyway by yourself with a backpack.
我想跑步帮你度过了那段 pandemic 的日子。
I guess running helped you deal with the pandemic.
你觉得疫情期间的跑者是不是因为有跑步而更有韧性，还是说我们和普通人一样，也都受到了影响？
Do you think that runners during the pandemic were maybe more resilient because they had running, or were we just all affected, like, the rest of the population?
是的。
Yeah.
那段时间情绪起伏挺意外的，因为我本来就特别喜欢一个人跑步，也常独自背着包跑一百公里，还挺享受的。
It was it was an interesting and unexpected flow of emotions because I very much like running by myself, and I very much will go out and run a 100 kilometers by myself with a pack, and quite enjoy it.
我原以为 Miwok 赛事也会是同样的情况。
But I thought it would the same thing would happen with Miwok.
但当我走到那些通常有补给站、观众欢呼、拍照打卡的地方时，却发现什么都没有。
And what I found is that when I got to those junctures where I knew there'd typically be an aid station, lots of cheering fans and, you know, selfies and all that kind of stuff that I kinda complained about, it wasn't there.
那一刻我才意识到，原来我那么想念这些。
And it struck me how much I I missed it.
虽然我喜欢独来独往，但我也真的很享受和跑者群体在一起的那种氛围。
You know, how much as as much as I like being a loner, I I do enjoy the camaraderie of being around, you know, the community of runners.
因为那些都不见了，整场比赛感觉空落落的。
And with that not being there, it just seemed hollow, the ex the whole thing.
心里确实有点失落。
And it's it was it was a bit sad.
我们有个问题，你现在都在忙些什么？
One of our questions is what are you up to now?
你刚提到，几周后你要跑一场百公里越野赛。
And you've just told us that you're running a 100 in a few weeks.
那这个活动具体是什么情况？
So what's this of what is the event?
你愿意跟我们讲讲吗？
Do you want to tell us about it?
对。
Yeah.
这个活动其实在匹兹堡外面，宾夕法尼亚州。
It's, it's an event outside of Pittsburgh, actually, Pennsylvania.
所以是在东海岸。
So it's on the East Coast.
这个比赛叫‘疯狂浣熊一百英里’。
It's called the Rabid Raccoon one hundred.
比赛有一百英里的组别，还有一百公里组，另外还有五人接力的一百英里团队赛。
And there's a 100 miler, there's a 100 k, and then there's a five person, 100 mile relay team.
赛道是二十英里的循环路线。
It's a 20 mile loop course.
所以，你可能觉得宾夕法尼亚的匹兹堡并不是越野跑的热土，主办方正努力在那里扩大跑者社群。
So, you don't think of, you know, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania as being kind of a hotbed of ultrarunning, and they're trying to grow the race organizers are trying to grow the community there.
所以他们邀请了我，我想，既然有机会，那就去吧。
So they invited me, and I thought, you know, you go do it.
你知道的，当我答应的时候，他们还挺意外的。
It's you know, they were surprised when I said, yeah.
我说我会去参加的。
I'll come do it.
我就是想帮忙，你知道的，帮他们把比赛办起来，也激励更多人参与。
But I just want I wanna help, you know, them build build the race and inspire some other people.
所以接下来就是这些安排。
So that's, you know, that's what's coming up.
然后四月份，我今天刚启动了一个叫希腊跑步之旅的新业务，这也是我刚才问摩押那三天是不是有竞技性质的原因。
And then, in April, I actually just today launched a business called Greek Running Tours, and it's not that's why was asking if the the three days in Moab were competitive.
这次是六天的跑步活动，不比赛，主打的是跑步旅游。
This is six days of running, noncompetitive, and it's it's foot tourism.
所以这是一种用双脚去探索一个地方的方式。
So it's a way to see a place on foot.
最长的那段路程呢，你知道的，差不多是个半马的距离。
And the longest day is you know, it's it's like a half marathon.
那就是最长的一天。
It's the longest day.
那估计得花上五个多小时，因为我们会一路上停下来，拍拍照，你知道的，体验一下沿途的文化风情。
And that's probably gonna be over five hours because we'll stop along the way, take selfies, you know, do some, cultural experiences along the way.
然后呢，你知道的，每天晚上都住豪华酒店，还有按摩服务，食物也特别棒。
And then, you know, you stay in luxury hotels every night, and there's massage services and really good food.
所以，这个项目今天刚启动，我们的第一次行程安排在四月，地点是希腊的一个岛屿，叫克里特岛。
So, that launched today, and our first, tour is in April in a place called Crete, an island in in Greece.
那里跑步简直太棒了。
It's incredible for running.
听起来太棒了。
That sounds amazing.
所以大家都想参与进来吗？
So people wanna people wanna get in on that?
他们可以去哪个网站查找信息？
There's a website they can they can find?
或者
Or
对。
Yeah.
就是 greekrunningtours.com。
It's just greekrunningtours.com.
明白了。
Okay.
你会亲自去吗？这样他们就能见到你了？
And you're gonna be there so they'll get a chance to meet you?
而且
And
我会亲自到场。
I'm gonna be there.
我会带队或者沿途提供支持。
I'm gonna lead or support the route.
我们提前把所有路线都实地考察过，因为我对希腊太熟悉了，想确保路线完美。
You know, we'll, we've got I mean, it to the routes, I went, like, scouted out all the routes beforehand because I wanted them to be like, I I know Greece so well.
我是希腊人，经常去那里。
I'm Greek, and I travel there all the time.
我还希望他们能去一些没被游客踩过的地方，那些地方比热门景点还好。
And I wanted them to go to untouristed spots that are better than the tourist spots.
每天你都知道跑步从哪儿开始。
So every day, you know, you know where the where the run begins.
大概一半在小路上，一半在公路上。
Some of it most of it is it's about fifty fifty on the trail and on the road.
不过我说的小路，可不是那种崎岖的单人小径。
But when I say trail, it's not single track rugged trail.
更像是一条修整过的防火道。
It's more like a like a graded fire road.
就是一条土路。
So it's it's just it's dirt.
是土路，但跑起来并不特别难走。
It's a dirt path, but it's not super technical running.
你也能跑这个，莉兹。
You could do that, Liz.
是的
Yeah.
听起来不错。
That sounds great.
这倒真挺对我胃口的。
That sounds like my kind of trail, actually.
也就是说，我不用担心会被路上的障碍绊倒。
Like, you I won't have to, you know, worry about tripping over any routes.
如果有人负担不起希腊度假，或者体力跟不上，但又想跟着你的脚步，迪恩，他们最该去哪儿关注你的行程呢？
And if people can't afford the Greek holiday or they don't have the, they don't have the legs for that, and they wanna follow you, where's the best place they can follow you, in terms of your exploits, Dean?
你只要搜我的名字就行了。
Just you can just, Google my name.
有人说过，你要是搜‘迪恩’，我就是第一个跳出来的结果。
Someone said if you someone said if you Google Dean, I'm the first reference that comes up.
对。
Yeah.
问这个问题感觉有点傻。
I feel kinda a bit dumb asking that question.
其实我们会问每个人，因为是的。
Actually, we ask that to everybody because Yeah.
通常大家是希望稍微提升一下知名度，我们就想着帮他们一把。
Normally, the people are looking to, you know, raise their profiles a little bit, and we thought, well, we'll help them along.
就像我问这个问题一样。
Like, I asked the question.
我还纳闷，干嘛要去问德恩·卡纳泽斯我该去哪儿跟着他呢？
I thought, why am I asking Dean Karnazes where we can follow him?
我很容易找到的。
I'm I'm I'm findable.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的
Mhmm.
你在所有社交媒体平台上都有账号，还开了个网站。
You're on all the social media platforms, and you have a website.
我有个网站。
I have a website.
我搜过你的名字。
I've googled your name.
我还做希腊跑步导览。
And I have Greek running tours.
我有两个网站。
I have two websites.
对
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我会把希腊跑步之旅的链接放在节目简介里，这样大家就能
I I'll I'll link the Greek running tours in the in the show notes so people can
谢谢。
Thank you.
对。
Yeah.
如果人们想旅行，并且想在旅行中加入跑步，他们可以去那里看看。
People can can go there if they're if they're looking to travel and incorporate running in their travel.
听起来很棒。
Sounds great.
其实这就是个借口，好名正言顺地大吃一顿。
Really it's an excuse to eat.
既能运动又能享受美食，这其实关乎美食，关乎美食文化。
You get to exercise because the food is it's really about gast it's about gastronomy, these two words.
就是……
It's it's
不过这类活动真的很棒。
These kind of events are fantastic, though.
我去年在葡萄牙北部参加过一次，是由一位著名的葡萄牙超马选手卡洛斯·卡纳泽斯组织的。
I I did one last year in the North Of Portugal, organized by a a famous Portuguese ultramarathon called Carlos Karnazes.
哦，我认识卡洛斯。
Oh, I know Carlos.
对。
Mhmm.
是在佩内塔·赫里切国家公园组织的。
Organized in in the Penetta Jeriche National Park.
你知道的，他是本地人，认识所有人，也熟悉所有的村庄，会为你安排好一切，体验真的特别棒。
And, you know, he's a local guy, and he knows all the people and knows all the villages and organizes everything for you, and it was absolutely fantastic.
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