思维的燃料，作者：雷妮·麦格雷戈

她确实列了几样，但总体上还是尽量选一些普通又对身体好的东西。

So she's got a few of those, but she tries to keep this list, just ordinary things that are good for us.

有时候她不得不

Sometimes she has to

选一个有点冷门的词，比如Z开头她用了za'atar，或者叫别的什么名字。

pick a word that's a little fringe, but then she says, well, when I say this, I mean, for Zed, she has za'atar or whatever it's called.

但她解释说，我提到Z的时候，其实是指所有香料。

But she says, oh, mean all spices.

都应该多用。

Should use them.

不过za'atar确实挺棒的。

But za'atar is really good.

我们以前住在市区的时候，常买那种撒了za'atar的皮塔饼。

We used to get this pita bread with za'atar on it when we lived downtown.

因为那时候可以去PA店，买那种——

Because you could go to PA and you could get this Yeah,

确实很好。

absolutely it is good.

对，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

你知道我从清单里挑了哪个吗？

You know what I picked out of the list?

哪个？

What?

我选了'I'，代表冰淇淋。

I is for ice cream.

她说因为饮食要均衡，要健康。

She said because you need balance and a healthy diet.

这主意真不错。

Now that's cool.

对，夏天我们经常去吃冰淇淋。

Yeah and we do ice cream runs in summer.

夏天才合适，现在太冷了。

In summer because now it's too cold

得等天气暖和点再开车去买。

for See stopping fuel.

对，等天冷了我们就改喝热可可了。

Yeah we'll be doing hot chocolate runs soon.

我注意到这个A到Z食物清单里，肉挺少的。

One of the things I noticed about the A to Z foods is it doesn't contain very many meats.

这清单里根本没提到任何肉类，对吧？

It doesn't contain any meats, does it?

这倒是个好问题。

Well, that's a good question.

C不是代表鸡肉，是代表鹰嘴豆。

C is not for chicken, C is for chickpeas.

S也不是代表牛排。

S is not for steak.

对，确实

Yeah, that

没错。

is true.

里面有很多

There's lots and lots of

D是乳制品，E是鸡蛋。

D is for dairy and E is for eggs.

哦，F是鱼。

Oh, F is for fish.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我喜欢吃鱼。

I like fish.

那是我最喜欢的肉。

That's my favorite that's my favorite meat.

但我也不确定。

But I don't know.

有些人说那不算肉，可我觉得就是。

Some people say it's not meat, but I'm like, yeah.

但它确实是动物的肌肉。

But it's it's animal muscle.

所以。

So

前几天我吃了一些鳟鱼。

I had had some trout the other day.

那味道很不错。

That was pretty neat.

对。

Mhmm.

这不错。

That's good.

等等。

Wait.

咱们能不能聊点跟主题无关的事？

Is it okay for us to chat a little bit off subject?

我们

We've

我不确定。

I don't know.

你觉得听众想听我们聊这些跑题的内容吗？

Like, do you think the listeners are gonna wanna hear us chat about things that are off topic?

他们可以快进跳过这段。

Well, they can fast forward this bit.

行吧。

Okay.

说吧。

Go ahead.

是的。

Yeah.

我们刚订了一份新鲜食材配送，是哪家来着？

We've we've just signed up for a fresh food delivery to our Which one?

叫Luffa的那家。

From a place called Luffa.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

你听说过Luffa吗？

Have you heard of Luffa?

对。

Yeah.

我们以前也订过一阵子。

We did that for, like, a little while.

我们没坚持下去。

We didn't stick with it.

他们在建筑物的屋顶上搭温室种蔬菜，就在城市里头。

They grow vegetables on the roofs in greenhouses, on the roofs of buildings Mhmm.

基本上就是在城里头。

In the city, basically.

所以你拿到的菜特别新鲜。

So you you get it sort of fresh.

但你得接受他们有什么就给什么，这点没办法。

You have to you have to take what they got to some extent.

不过他们的App现在改进多了。

But their their app's getting better now.

你可以调整送货时间。

You can you can you can adjust your delivery.

所以我们想着试试看。

So we thought we'd give it a try.

他们给我们送了一些鳟鱼。

And they sent us some trout.

哇，真的吗？

Oh wow,

我压根没想过吃鳟鱼，但现在有了，那就吃吧。

I didn't really think of having trout, but I've got some trout now, I'll eat it.

太棒了。

Excellent.

是啊，我们以前住在市中心的时候，还没Leafa Farm，因为那时候他们应该还没成立，那都十多年前了。

Yeah, when we were living downtown, it wasn't Leafa Farm because I don't think they were around yet because this was like more than a decade ago.

不过当时有个农场设了个取货点，我那时候还在康考迪亚大学读书，取货点就在学校门口，我们住得不远。

But there was like a farm that had a drop off that was like, I was still at Concordia at the time, and they had a drop off that was right outside Concordia, we lived up the street.

对。

Yeah.

夏天我们就参加，挺好的，就是因为这个原因——全是水果蔬菜，主要是蔬菜，每次拿到的东西里总有些从没见过的，得自己琢磨怎么吃。

And so we did that in the summer because it was nice because you exactly for that reason, like, it was all fruits and vegetables, mostly vegetables, but you would get stuff that like, you didn't know what it was, and so then you had to figure out how to eat it.

所以这就像一次探索性的体验。

So it was kind of like an exploratory exercise.

挺有意思的，你看到个圆圆绿绿的东西，就会想，这玩意儿怎么吃啊。

Like it was kind of fun, because you'd be like, Oh, what's this round green I wonder how you eat this.

是的，不过大部分都是你平时就认识的常见食材。

Yeah, I mean, mostly it's standard stuff that you kind of know.

但我们这次收的货里，有一样东西挺特别的——我们总共就收过一次货。

But one of the things that we got in our delivery, we've only had one delivery.

所以我现在还挺期待的。

So I'm kind of excited about it at the moment.

也许过一阵子就腻了，不过——

Maybe I'll get bored with it after a while, but-

不会的，说不定反而会喜欢上。

No, it could

那样也挺好。

be fine then.

沙拉里有蒲公英叶子，里面还带着蒲公英。

There dandelions in the dandelion leaves in the salad selection.

所以我心想，这东西该怎么处理呢？

So I thought, what are gonna do with this?

我们就直接把它跟生菜和菠菜一起拌进沙拉里吧。

Well, we'll just put it in a salad just like with some lettuce and some spinach.

是的。

Yeah.

味道特别好。

And it was great.

对。

Yeah.

所以你能尝到

So you get

一点

bit of

种类丰富，还有一些你可能平时不太常吃的东西。

variety and different stuff that maybe you don't routinely.

因为之前体验不错，所以我们连续几年都去尝试了。记得在蒙特利尔住市中心那会儿，我们就这么干过。

Tried because of like, we had a pretty good experience, we did it a couple years in a row with that, the one that was in Montreal when we were living there downtown.

当时心想，要不试试丝瓜吧。

We thought like, oh, well, let's try the loofah.

不过后来觉得有点负担，因为那会儿我俩都在上班。

But then it was a bit of a burden because we were both working when we tried it.

所以当时情况是，家里没人，所以我们不想让送货上门。

And so it was like, well, no one was home, so we didn't want home delivery.

我们就选了送到自提点，但那个自提点位置有点偏，不算顺路，反正从哪回家都不方便。

So we got it, we got it sent to the drop off area, but then the drop off it's like, it was like a little, not really out of the way, just like not on the way home from anything.

所以挺麻烦的，因为得在特定时间段内专门跑一趟去取。

And so it like was a little bit of a burden because it was like, well, we have to go pick this thing up between certain times.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，对你来说不太方便。

I mean, doesn't work for you.

是啊。

That Yeah.

所以我们后来就取消了，不过也许哪天我们会再试一次。

Thing, does So we canceled it for that, but yeah, maybe one day we'll go back.

不过我想，你妻子在家上班，所以不一样。

But I guess, well your wife works from home, so.

而且我们的取件点就在本地超市旁边。

Also our drop off is near, just next to our local supermarket.

明白了。

Okay.

哦，如果

Oh, If

你要是顺道去超市取东西，顺便把快递箱取了就行，还可以打电话通知。

you're that's picking stuff up from the supermarket, you pick your, or you go and pick your box, and you can call in

因为那也是另一个问题。

because the that was the other thing.

你没法用它完全替代去超市购物，毕竟东西实在不够全。

Was like, you couldn't replace going to the grocery store with that because there wasn't like really enough.

是的。

Yeah.

不过呢。

But yeah.

结果它就成了我们得多做的一件事。

So it was a bit it was a bit like it ended up being an extra thing that we had to do.

所以，我们就取消了。

And so, yeah, we canceled it.

但是

But

那我们就走着瞧吧。

Well, we'll see how we go.

不过

But

不过说实话，还挺有意思的，从……的角度来说

it's But it's kind of fun in terms of

这个概念也挺好，本地种植嘛。

It's a nice concept as well, locally grown.

对。

Yeah.

利用那些

Using spaces that are

没人用的

That are not used.

城市空间。

Kinda urban spaces.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这太棒了。

It's great.

我真的特别喜欢这一点。

Like, I love that.

所以我们才想支持他们。

And that's why we wanted to support them.

不过呢，也许改天再说吧。

But yeah, it was maybe maybe another time.

咱们看看会发生什么。

We'll see what happens.

对。

Yeah.

但这也挺有意思的，因为你总能在购物篮里收到些稀奇古怪的东西，然后琢磨着怎么吃。

But it's fun also because it's fun to get weird things in your basket and see and figure out how to eat it.

我们买过一些芽菜，他们那儿总会有各种芽菜。

We got like these sprouts, they always had some kind of sprouts

它们上面是不是有点黑色的小东西？

Did they have kind of like little black things on the top of them?

没有。

No.

我觉得我们买的是豆芽之类的。

I think ours were bean sprouts or something.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们买过一盒芽菜，装在纸盒里，我们只加点水，它就能一直长。

We got a punnet of maniac sprouts and what we did was, it was in a sort of cardboard, we just put some water on it and it just keeps growing.

我们不断剪下来吃，它还一直长。

We keep chopping bits off and eating it, it keeps growing.

挺有意思的。

It's fun.

对。

Yep.

不过，扯远了。

Anyway, big diversion.

确实扯远了。

That was a big diversion.

所以啊，你们可以快进接下来大概十分钟的内容。

So guys, you should you can fast forward the next, like, ten minutes.

埃德没吃的了。

Ed is out of foods.

第六章：厨房。

Chapter six, the kitchen.

这一章就叫这个。

That's what the chapter's called.

这主要是多讲了一点关于食物的内容，

It's basically a bit more about food and

对我来说，最重要的启示，可能对你也是，就是雷妮的建议：别总觉得你得靠运动去‘赚’饭吃。

Big take home message here for me, which is probably the same as for you, is the big advice from Renee is don't basically feel you have to earn your food.

以前我总想，嗯，要是我去跑个长跑，就能理所当然地多吃点。

So ever go well okay if I go for a nice big long run then I can eat that afterwards.

这样只会让你和食物的关系变得很糟糕。

You're just setting yourself up for a bad relationship with food.

对。

Yes.

如果

If

你总觉得得先付出才能吃。

you feel you have to earn it.

不如反过来想。

Better put it the other way around.

对。

Yeah.

你是说，是的，打算

Is that what you're Yes, gonna

你知道吗？

you know what?

其实我记下来的重点不是这个。

That's actually not the takeaway I wrote down.

哦。

Oh.

对，这挺让人意外的。

Yeah, that's surprising.

我是说，这也是我的一点心得。

I mean, that's a takeaway that I had.

不过我记下来了，说大脑每天需要120到130克葡萄糖才能发挥最佳状态。

But I wrote down that the brain needs 120 to 130 grams of glucose per day to work optimally.

所以我现在的想法是，最近我脑子用得特别多，因为我回学校了，

So this is like my current thinking is, because I kind of need my brain a lot these days, because like I went back to school and,

而且，

and,

得学这么多新东西。

you know, I need to learn all this material.

所以只要有什么能帮上忙的，我当然都愿意试。

And so anything that can help, like, I'm all all down for that.

我本来挺惊讶的，因为这个数字真的很大。

So I was surprised by that number because that's that's huge.

每天需要一百二十到一百三十克葡萄糖。

A 120 to a 130 grams of glucose per day.

当然，如果你吃点意大利面，身体也会把它转化成葡萄糖，所以你没必要每天喝四瓶运动饮料。

So granted, you know, if you eat some pasta, your body will convert that to glucose and, you know, so it's not like you don't have to drink like four Gatorades every day.

但这恰恰说明，光是大脑运作就这么耗能，还没算上你跑步或者锻炼时肌肉的消耗。

But that's, it just shows that's like just your brain, that's not your muscles working, you going for a run.

你所需的碳水化合物量，其实只是为了维持基本生存而已。

Just like the amount of carbohydrate that you need, like this is just to, you know, keep yourself alive.

她还提到另一个观点，这个说法特别打动我：如果你让两个人去改变某个习惯，比如你调整蛋白质摄入，其中一个人摄入能量不足，另一个人能量充足，那么能量充足的那个会更快适应变化。

So the other fact that she wrote along with this, which is like the convincing argument for me, is that she says, If you ask two people to change a behaviour, so this can be anything, like, you know, you with your protein, and one of them is not getting enough fuel while the other one is, it is the one who's fueling that will adapt the quickest.

明白了。

Okay.

所以，给大脑提供足够的葡萄糖，可能就是你能否

So getting enough glucose for your brain can actually be the difference between you

做出下一步改变的关键。

Making the next change.

能不能做出改变的差别。

Making the change or not.

这不挺有意思的吗？我觉得这个观点真的很棒。

Isn't that, I don't know, I just thought that was really cool.

你的大脑其实正在判断：现在有没有足够的葡萄糖可用。

Your brain is wondering if it has no glucose at the moment.

大脑可真会指挥我。

Brain's Yeah.

催着我去买个甜甜圈什么的。

Sending me out to go and get a donut or something.

一块巧克力。

A chocolate bar.

说到这个。

Mention

对，抱歉，巧克力。

Okay, chocolate sorry.

还有书中提到的一点，如果你打算进行高原训练并想从中获益，那前提是你得提前补充充足的能量和铁元素，因为身体需要能量来适应环境，也需要铁来生成——

Yeah, the other thing that was in that chapter that I captured was that for altitude training, if you want to do some altitude training and get the benefit of that, that in fact you won't get benefit from altitude training unless you go in well fueled with enough iron in your system because you've got to have the energy to make the adjustments and the iron to make the, I guess,

更多的红细胞。

Extra red

就是红细胞里的血红蛋白，没错。

The blood hemoglobin, yeah, in your red blood cells.

是的，因为在高海拔地区运动强度更大，消耗的能量也更多。

Yeah, the energy is because you're working harder at altitude.

所以会消耗更多的碳水化合物，需要更多能量。

So burning more carbs, more energy.

好，我们接着看第七章。

Okay, on to chapter seven.

最佳建议和示例食谱。

Top tips and example menus.

你知道吗？

Okay, so you know what?

我有一个收获。

I had one takeaway.

书里有个词反复出现了好几次。

It was that there's a word in there that was repeated multiple times.

我完全想不起来那词是什么，但你是英国人，应该知道。

I have no idea what it is, but you being from The UK probably know what it is.

所以我没什么特别的收获。

So I don't have a takeaway.

我有个问题想问你。

I have a question for you.

好的。

Okay.

你这是让我答难题啊。

Put me on the spot here.

问吧。

Fire away.

什么是硬糖？

Okay what is a boiled sweet?

她老是提到硬糖。

It was always a boiled sweet.

她多次提到，说她带过一个跑超马的运动员，比赛时总感到恶心，那个运动员就像我

She brought it up multiple times, she said she had an athlete that was doing ultras that was experiencing nausea during races, and her athlete like I

我想这是个英文词。

guess this is an English word.

我从来没想过会有人不知道这是什么意思。

Never even occurred to me that somebody wouldn't know what that meant.

是北美没有这种硬糖吗？

It that North America doesn't have boiled sweets?

没有。

No.

比如我从来不会把糖果煮来吃。

I would never boil my candies for example.

煮糖果？我根本不知道这指的是什么。

Like what the like, I don't even know what that means boiling a sweet.

糖果怎么煮啊？

What's sweet that you boil?

boiled sweet 就是一种糖果。

Boiled sweet is a candy.

好吧。

Okay.

但这真的很难。

But it's really hard.

简直像玻璃一样。

It's like almost glassy.

你知道那种枫糖浆做的糖果吗？

You know how you can have like a maple syrup, a maple syrup sweet.

就是那种黑乎乎、硬邦邦的。

It's just They're the black hard.

是的。

Yeah.

哦。

Oh.

原来这就是硬糖啊。

So that's a boiled sweet.

是的，这就是硬糖。

Yeah, that's a boiled sweet.

好的。

Okay.

表面有点像玻璃一样光滑。

Sort of a glassy sort of surface on it.

哦，我明白了，嗯。

Oh, I see, okay.

那为什么没人叫它玻璃糖呢？

Why don't they call it a glassy sweet?

什么叫‘wild boiled’？

What's wild boiled?

我不清楚。

I don't know.

这应该是历史原因吧。

It must be historical.

也许最早做这种糖的人，就是把糖块煮出来的。

Maybe the original people who made them made them by boiling lumps of sugar or something.

这倒说得通，我觉得糖果本来就是这么做的。

Oh, that would make sense because I think that's actually how you make candy.

没错。

There you go.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Okay.

太好了。

Great.

那从这一章里你学到了什么？

So what did take away from that chapter?

我们告诉过蕾妮，北美根本没人懂她在说什么。

We have told Renee that that no one in North America knows what the hell she's talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全不知道那是什么。

Had no idea what that was.

所以对所有住在这里、读过这本书的人来说，这就解释清楚了。

So to everybody else that lives here and reads that book, well, there you have it.

从这一章里，我得到了一个非常关键的信息，还有其他一些内容。

There was one very key piece of information that I got out of this this this chapter amongst other things.

对。

Mhmm.

她提到，当你在吃能量胶、补充能量的时候。

Was she suggests when you're taking jowls, when you're fueling.

是的。

Yeah.

而且一般来说，我觉得大多数人最后都会选择我们更倾向的那种策略，就是每二十分钟吃一次。

And and generally, I think people seem to to land on the the the gel strategy that we tend to prefer, which is sort of twenty minutes every twenty minutes.

所以，大概在三个小时以上的长时间运动中。

So, yeah, about about in a in a three hours plus effort exercise.

但她建议，吃能量胶的时候别一下子全吃完。

But she says when you're taking a gel, don't take it all at once.

要分几分钟慢慢吃。

Take it over a few minutes.

她说最好用五分钟的时间来吃完。

She says a five minute period.

这跟我自己的感觉差不多。

That sounds about right for me.

差不多就是跑一公里的距离。

That's like a kilometer.

我觉得这个办法挺好，能帮助身体更好地吸收。

Which is a nice idea I think, because it gives you a better chance of absorbing it.

而且也能更好地避免

Also gives you a better chance of not

被噎住。

Choking on it.

对，要是一次性吞太多，容易噎着或者不舒服，而且我觉得那样会更黏稠。

Yeah, choking on it or having some kind of distress because you got too much of a bolus just going down at once, except you're gonna be more sticky I think.

其实我平时吃能量胶就是这么做的，因为跑步到高强度的时候，我根本没法一边呼吸一边吃胶。

Actually that's how I take gels anyway naturally because like, you know when you're running at the harder effort, I just can't breathe and eat gel at the same time.

我觉得自己是不是哪里有问题。

Like I think I'm defective in some way.

所以你是

So you

每次只吃一点点？

just take a little, a little bit?

我每次只吃一点，然后呼吸一下，再吞下去，有时候就先含在嘴里，等缓过劲儿再处理。

I take a little bit and then like, like then I breathe and then I swallow it and yeah, it like, or sometimes it just sits in my mouth for a while, while I can you know process that.

安德烈老笑话我。

Andre laughs at me.

是的。

Yeah.

他就觉得这事儿特别可笑。

He just, he thinks that it's ridiculous.

他说你直接把整袋都挤进去就行，但我觉得一袋里的凝胶量太多了。

He's like, you just have to squeeze it all in, but I find that the gel, there's too much in the packet for one.

我没法一口全吞下去，实在太多了。

I can't like take it all at once, there's just too much of it.

我觉得粘手是个问题，挺让人烦的。

I think I have a problem with sticky fingers, it kind of irritates me.

我也不喜欢手粘粘的，但我就是……

I don't like sticky fingers either, but I just

所以我尽量一口把凝胶全吞了，早点了事。

So I try to take the gel all at once to kind of get it out of the way.

然后擦擦手，或者舔一舔再抹在衣服上之类的。

And then wipe my fingers or lick my fingers and wipe them on my shirt or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，我对这个特别感兴趣，因为我在跑马拉松时一直有个难题：怎么补充能量。

Also, I was quite interested in this because one of the difficulties I have is fueling during a during a marathon race.

我觉得大多数人会用姜来缓解恶心。

I think most people do was ginger can work for nausea.

哦对，我看过这个说法，当时就觉得这主意不错。

Oh yeah, I read that and I was like, oh, that's an idea.

对，就是Caffeine Bullet家的几片姜片。

Yeah, a few ginger rows from Caffeine Bullet.

我也是这么想的。

That was actually exactly my thought.

我打算放几片在口袋里。

I thought I would put a couple of those in my pocket.

就是那种跑着跑着，比如我经常在25公里、30公里左右就开始难受的时候用。

Like for when you hit sort of, I don't know, for me it starts early sometimes like 25 ks, 30 ks, like when you start

可能当你到了后期，那种感觉更多是心理作用。

probably when you, if Yeah, it's psychological, that sort of later stage.

要是你随身带着它们，风险基本就消除了。

Probably if you've got them in your pocket, probably now you've taken the risk off the table.

你可能根本不会觉得恶心，因为有一半是心理因素在作怪。

You probably won't even feel nauseous because half of it's psychological.

没错，我敢肯定就是这样，向来都是这样。

Yes, yep, I'm sure that's the way it's gonna, that's always how it happens.

当你做好了准备，这种情况反而不会发生。

It's like when you're ready for the situation, it doesn't happen.

所以你必须提前做好准备。

So that's why you have to be ready for it.

Renee 提到过要提前准备备用方案。

Renee talks about having contingency feeling plans.

我通常会带两种不同的能量胶，因为每次跑到该吃胶的时候，我都会想……

One of the things I do is I bring two different kinds of gels because when I'm out there and I get to, okay, it's time to take a gel.

我能感觉到，嗯，今天状态不太对。

I can kind of go, okay, I'm not feeling it.

好吧，换一种凝胶吧。

Okay, I'll switch gels.

试试别的口味和质地。

I'll try for a different flavor and a different texture.

这其实就是我给自己留的后备方案。

So that's my sort of way of building some contingency into it.

其实去年我们跑葡萄酒赛道时，我无意中这么做过。他们沿途发的是Huma，但我本来计划用Morton，所以口袋里装着Morton。

Actually, I did that by accident when we did wine glass last year because they were giving out Humas on the course, but I had planned to fuel with Morton, so I had Morton in my pocket.

明白了。

Okay.

但在某个补给站，我拿了点那种水果味的Huma，

But at one of the stations, I took some of the Humas that were like a fruity flavor,

不是

not

巧克力味的，因为比赛时我根本吃不下巧克力。

the chocolate ones because I can't can't do chocolate during a race.

这事儿吧。

It's

太腻了，实在受不了。

too too much.

后来我真的吃不下去Morton了。

And eventually, like, just I couldn't take the I couldn't take the Morton's.

于是我换了Huma，吃起来还行。

So I switched, I took a Huma and it went down okay.

因为味道好像不太一样。

Because it was like, I guess it was different.

口感也不一样，不是那种感觉。

The texture So is not the yeah.

这有个前提。

There's a condition.

是有一些，没错。

There's some, yeah.

我的意思也不是真有计划，但反正管用了。

I mean, it wasn't really a plan, but it worked.

至少有点帮助。

It helped at least.

说实话，我不确定是不是真有效，毕竟那场比赛我没跑好，但确实有帮助。

I mean, I don't know if it worked because I didn't have a good race, but it helped.

她还提到，如果你感到恶心，她这时候说的可能是超马，但我跑马拉松快到终点时也会有点反胃。

She also says that if you're nauseous, she's probably referring to ultras at this point, but I certainly get a bit nauseous at the towards the end of a marathon.

她说，就算有点恶心，也得硬着头皮吃点东西，因为要是没法补充能量，迟早会撞墙。

Says if you're a bit nauseous, you still have to try and keep eating because, basically, if you can't get if you can't get fuel in, you're going to you're going to bonk.

但她建议，哪怕少吃一点，也尽量吃点东西。

But she says, take a little bit, try to eat something.

她还提到，有时候这跟补水也有关系。

She also talks about it sometimes being related to hydration.

是的。

Yes.

如果你喝水不够，有时候这正是你在超马中更容易感到恶心的原因。

If you haven't been drinking enough, sometimes that's the reason that you'll get more nauseous in ultras.

我觉得她更多是在说超马，不过马拉松也一样，毕竟你一跑就是好几个小时。

So I think she says this more about ultras, I mean it's true for marathons as well because you're out there for a few hours.

嗯，这里面有不少有用的信息。

Okay, so some good stuff in there.

对，这一章挺好的。

Yeah, that was a good chapter.

这这

The The

算是最后一章了。

kinda final chapter.

对，差不多是最后一章了。

Yeah, the kinda final.

因为第九章完全是她的总结性想法。

Because chapter nine is just her closing thoughts.

所以

So

这其实不算是一章有信息量的内容。

it's not really a chapter informational.

更像是

It's like,

后面还有一些类似的内容，不过有些评论确实不错。

there's of more those things, some of the comments are good though.

是啊，如果你愿意，我们可以结合第八章一起来聊聊。

Yeah, well, we could talk about it if you want, kind of in conjunction with chapter eight.

第八章讲的是，这本书最后部分，她谈到了人不是教科书。

Chapter eight was, this is basically the last part of the book where she just talks about humans not being textbooks.

所以第八章讲的是虚假的避难所，以及它们如何阻碍我们。

So chapter eight is false refuges and how they hinder us.

她在这里更详细地谈到了那些所谓的‘跑步网红’。

And this is where she goes more into detail about calling out, she calls them runfluencers.

对。

Yeah.

她提到，我们总是拿自己跟这些跑步网红比较，但其实很多人根本不是专业运动员，未必跑得有多好，也不一定有正常的工作。

You know, she talks about how we compare ourselves to these runfluencers and these, they're, you know, a lot of them are not they're they're not professional athletes, so they're not necessarily performing well, and they're not, you know, normal people with jobs necessarily either.

当然，这些人的情况各不相同，但她的意思是，如果你看到他们就总觉得自己不够好，那其实没必要比较——他们很多是为了推广品牌才这么做的，跟品牌合作，也不一定真有具体的跑步目标。

I mean, of them are, like, they're not all on the same same page, but she just says like the, if seeing these people makes us kind of like always feel bad about ourselves, then she kind of just says like, you shouldn't compare yourself because they're often trying to promote a brand because of, they're working with the brand and they're not necessarily always working towards a specific running goal either.

比如有些人，就是专门参加那些大型赛事，因为——

Like some of them, they like, you know, they, for example, do all the big races because they

对，就为了在波士顿露个脸，

Yeah, just wanna pop up at Boston and

然后去拍视频。

They go and vlog.

吸引大量点击。

Get lots of hits.

是的。

Yeah.

他们并不像专业运动员那样，为某一场特定的比赛进行系统训练。

So they're not necessarily, you know, doing a big training block towards one dedicated race like a professional athlete does.

他们参加这么多比赛，主要是为了报道这些赛事。

They're kind of just, you know, they're doing all these races because they're kind of covering races.

所以，你真不该拿自己跟他们比。

So, you know, you shouldn't be comparing Yeah.

你跟他们比目标，根本没意义。

Yourself to You shouldn't be comparing yourself to to them in terms of goals.

这个嘛，说实话，我也说不好。

Like it's, I mean, I don't know.

她没明说，但我认为，如果你喜欢某个人在Instagram或YouTube上的内容，关注他们也没问题，毕竟你欣赏他们，说不定还能学到些有用建议，但得留个心眼。

She doesn't say this, but I think like it's fine to follow somebody that you like on Instagram or on YouTube or whatever, because you know, because you like them and I don't know, they give out some good advice, but you have to watch out.

别把自己的生活照搬他们的样子。

Like you shouldn't mimic your life around their life.

是的。

Yeah.

你大概也在社交媒体上关注了一些人。

You probably follow some people on social media.

我确实会。

I certainly do.

我也是。

I do.

对。

Yeah.

你刚才说话的时候，我正好在想这个。

And I was just thinking about it just while you were talking there.

我主要关注那些分享建议、正在努力做事的人。

I guess I follow people mostly who are giving advice, they're trying to do things.

比如有人准备在芝加哥马拉松突破个人最好成绩，你会看到他们怎么训练、遇到什么困难、表现如何，以及他们从中总结了什么。

So they're trying to prepare to PR at Chicago and you'll see what training they're doing, what difficulties they're having, then what their performance is, and then what they conclude from that.

而且我通常关注那些既分享成功也坦诚失败的人。

And it tends to be the people who share the good and the bad.

他们会告诉你他们做了什么、为什么这么做，以及结果是否有效。

They'll tell you what they're doing and why, and then whether it works.

一旦遇到问题，他们也会分析问题出在哪里。

Then when things are going wrong, why they're going wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

那些人呢，整天光鲜亮丽，嗨哟，看我穿着新出的X公司跑鞋在纽约跑步。

People who are just all bright and shiny and, yeehoo, look, I'm running at New York in my new X company shoes.

他们是不是很棒？

Aren't they wonderful?

我一般不太会关注这种人。

I tend not to follow people like that much.

我甚至都不用了解你，就能猜到你关注的大概是哪些人。

I know I can probably guess some people that you follow without even knowing.

我猜你关注的是阿里·奥斯特兰德。

I bet you follow Ali Ostrander.

是的，我关注她。

Yeah I do.

我

I

挺喜欢阿里·奥斯特兰德的。

like Ali Ostrander.

你

You

应该也关注英国的菲利·博登吧？

probably follow Philly Boden in The UK?

没有。

No,

不太关注。

not so much.

我认识她是因为你提到过。

I heard about her because of you.

我觉得你更关注美国的人。

You're more likely to follow Americans, I guess.

是的，我关注莎拉·霍尔。

Yeah, I follow Sarah Hall.

我觉得是因为她是一位顶尖运动员。

I think like it's because like, well, 's an elite athlete.

在你的

In your

年龄组里。

age group.

在我的年龄组里。

In my age group.

所以我觉得，对她我特别有共鸣，毕竟都四十岁了，还跑得这么快。

So I feel like, I don't know, for me, she inspires me because she's still running fast, know, and she's 40.

我的意思是，我也说不准。

I mean, so I don't know.

对我来说，关键是你能从中获得什么。

For me, like, I think it's also what you get out of it.

我的生活当然和她不一样。

I mean, like, my life is not like hers, obviously.

你知道，她全职训练，身边还有一整套资源支持她达到高水平训练。

You know, she she trains full time, and she has a bunch of resources around her, like to train at a high level.

她一直就是职业运动员。

She's always been a professional athlete.

她参加过奥运会。

She's gone to the Olympics.

她和我完全不一样，但说真的，我也说不清楚。

Like she's not not like me but at the same time like I don't know.

我看她的时候就想，是啊，她还能跑出两个小时25分的马拉松。

I figure I look at her and I'm like yeah but she can run she can still run like a two twenty five marathon.

她都能跑出两个半小时的马拉松，那我为什么就不能跑进三小时呢？

If she could still run a two twenty five marathon, like, why the heck can't I go sub three?

对我来说，我就是这么想的。

You know, like for me, that's, that's kind of how I take it.

我觉得这多少也取决于你怎么看待这些职业运动员或者跑步博主之类的。

I guess, know, I guess it depends a little bit on, on how you watch these pro athletes or runfluencers or whatever.

我觉得雷妮在书里说的主要是，你得自己拿捏分寸，因为这些人通常都有值得借鉴的地方。

I think basically what Renee says in the book is, you know, you just gotta have some discretion and, you know, because they all have something good to offer usually.

你得挑适合自己的建议去听，别因为自己跑的里程没人家多，就觉得自己不够格、达不到标准——毕竟你又不是非得跟他们跑一样多才行。

You just have to take the good advice that's good for you, but don't let, I don't know, don't let it seem like because you're not training as many miles or whatever that somehow like you're lacking or you're not, I don't know, you're not at the standard you should be at because you know, you're not running as much as they are or whatever.

我觉得她暗示的关键在于，你得真正了解自己。

I think part of the trick that she sort of alludes to is you need to understand yourself well.

没错。

Yeah.

试着搞清楚，如果你开始 obsess 于 Garmin 手表上的数字，或者老盯着网上那些你根本做不到的‘双挪威训练法’，会不会把自己逼到心态崩掉。

Know try to understand what's your potential to become dysfunctional if you start obsessing about your Garmin watch numbers or you start obsessing about somebody online who's doing this new double Norwegian method training program that you haven't been able to get to yet.

我觉得你得对自己有点了解，留意自己容易被带偏的地方。

I think you need to know a little bit about yourself and watch out for your susceptibilities, I guess.

还有，你也得诚实地问问自己，这件事在你的人生阶段里到底占什么位置？

And also, I guess just be honest with yourself, where does it fall on the timeline?

你刚提到那个双挪威阈值训练法，正好我带的一个学员也问我，这对他有没有帮助。

It's just because you mentioned this double Norwegian threshold training method that, so I coach an athlete and he actually asked me if that would be beneficial for him.

但那时候他一周才跑四天。

But at the time he was running like four days a week.

所以关键问题是，他能扛得住吗？

And so the thing is like, can he handle it?

也许可以。

Well, maybe.

他速度挺快的。

He's quite fast.

他主要跑五公里，是个五公里选手。

He's a five ks, he's mostly a five ks athlete.

雅各布·英格布里特森也做这种双阈值训练，他本身是五公里选手，所以他看到这个方法，就在想：这对我训练有帮助吗？

And you know, so Jacob Ingebritsen, who does these double threshold workouts, is also, he's a five ks athlete, so he's following this guy and he's like, think this might, would this be beneficial for my training?

我说：当然有潜力，但关键是你作为跑者的成长阶段还没到这儿——你跑的频率没到极限，单次时长也没到极限，每周训练次数也没到极限。

And I'm like, well yes, but the thing is like, in terms of timing in your evolution as a runner, like it doesn't fit here because you're not maxing out the frequency of your runs, you're not maxing out the duration of your runs, you're not even maxing out the number of workouts per week.

那时候我给他安排的是一次高强度训练加一次长跑。

At the time I was giving him like one hard workout plus a long run.

所以一周其实只有两天是硬训练。

So it's like two hard days.

所以我的想法是，在你考虑一天做两次高强度训练之前，你得先做到每周训练六天。

So you know, I'm like, well, I think before you jump to doing two hard workouts in a day, you first need to do at least six days of training.

你每天至少得跑一个小时。

You should be running at least like an hour a day.

等到那时候，你才可以考虑做两次训练，但那也应该是两次轻松跑。

Then you can maybe think about doing doubles, but double easy runs.

再往后，如果你觉得还需要更进一步，偶尔可以尝试双阈值训练，但你不能直接跳到这一步，这根本行不通。

And then maybe like after that, like if you still need like another step, like maybe we can do a double threshold run every so often, but it like, I mean, it's just not, it's just not, you can't just jump into That's that

这是个很好的例子，很多人一看就想着：也许我也该这么做。

a great sort of influencer example because people go, maybe I should be doing this.

是的，这种反应很正常。

Yeah, and that's a normal reaction I

我觉得。

think.

但其实你该问的是：你为什么想这么做？

When in fact, what you should be asking is, why do you want to do that?

你想这么做，是因为你想跑得更快。

You want to do that because you want to be faster.

所以我们该问对问题。

So let's ask the right question.

为了跑得更快，你下一步该做什么，而不是盲目跟风这个突然冒出来的‘亮点’。

What's the next thing that you should do versus what you're currently doing in order to be faster rather than this shiny object that's appeared in your

你的信息流里。

In your feed.

对，在你的信息流里。

Yeah, in your feed.

没错。

Yeah.

但要说明的是，这绝对不是运动员的错，他们只是分享自己在做什么。

And just to be clear, it's definitely not the athlete's fault either because he's just sharing what he's doing.

因为我们常常责怪顶尖运动员，觉得他们都很保密，没人愿意透露自己的训练方法。

Because we often blame elite athletes, you know, that they're all secretive and, you know, nobody wants to say what they're doing.

但在跑步圈子里，现在其实已经非常开放了。

And I think in the running space, it's become very open.

所以高水平的跑者确实会分享自己的训练内容。

And so, like, high level runners do share their workouts.

而且他们的训练强度相当高。

And their workouts are quite hard.

有些训练课特别长，特别折磨人。

Some of them are, you know, they're quite long, grueling sessions.

他们都会分享这些。

They share those.

去看看他们的训练，受到启发，想想自己的训练还能往哪儿提升，这完全没问题。

And it's fine to go in and watch them and be inspired and see where your training can go.

因为这意味着，也许有一天你的训练也能达到那个水平，但问题是，你现在准备好了吗？

Because, you know, it means your training can maybe get there one day, but like, are you ready for it now?

这才是该问的问题，而答案很可能是不是，现在还没准备好。

That's the question to ask because the answer is probably not now.

她提到了一些很好的例子，比如能量摄入不足、营养不良，以及运动型相对能量缺乏综合征（RED-S）。

There were some very nice examples of, she talks about low energy availability and under fueling and then the possibility of REDS, relative energy deficiency in sport.

这些情况通常更多出现在女性身上，因为她们会有明显的信号，比如月经停止之类的。

Often those are related more to females because they get very obvious signals like stopping their menstrual cycle and stuff like that.

但她其实也举了一个男性的例子，也出现了类似的问题。

But she actually gives a good example of a male with some of that.

我觉得随着这方面的研究不断深入，我们会看到越来越多这样的案例。

I think as the research develops around that, we're going to see more of that.

我还在喝我的荧光绿运动饮料。

I'm still drinking my fluorescent green Gatorade.

还有那些高度加工的食品。

And like ultra processed food.

是的，我喜欢她举的那个例子，毕竟她是女性，经常谈论女性的问题。

Yeah, I did like that example because, like, she's obviously a woman, she talks a lot about women.

我觉得这有道理，因为历史上很多研究都是以男性为对象的，但在这整个REDs的例子中，他们通常举的都是女性的案例，这挺好的。

I think there's reason for that because historically a lot of research and everything has been with men, but it's nice that in the whole reds example, it's often women examples that they give.

但这次她提到了一位男性，你知道，男性能量摄入不足时更难察觉，因为他们没有女性那种明显的信号。

In this one she does talk about a man and it's, you know, it's harder, I guess, to realize when you're under fuelling, because you don't have that signal that women do.

但在这个案例里，这位男士出现了股骨应力性骨折。

But in this case, the poor guy, had a femoral stress fracture, think.

股骨可是很大的骨头。

The femur is like a huge bone.

所以如果你的股骨出现应力性骨折，那就是一个非常明显的警告信号了。

So like if you get a stress fracture there, that's a huge red flag.

特别有意思。

Massive amount of fun.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

在我们讨论这本书适合谁之前，你对最后一章有什么想说的吗？

Did you wanna say anything about the last chapter before we maybe talk about who we think this book is for?

最后一章就几页纸，总结了一下，说跑步是为了生活。

Well, the last chapter's kind of just a couple of pages of summary saying, you know, running for life.

没错。

Mhmm.

我觉得最后一章里有一件事我特别有共鸣，我想你也一样，就是别再以为你追的那个成绩、那个时间，真能带来什么真正的满足感。

I think I think the the one point that I'd just like to make on that chapter is that something that I identify strongly with, and I think you do, is stop thinking that, this PR that you're chasing or this time that you're chasing, you know, will bring you some sort of fulfillment.

这其实是个错觉，因为你不能把自己的幸福和结果绑在一起，一旦达到了，你马上就会想：接下来呢？

It's kind of a false it's a false thing because basically your happiness you shouldn't connect your happiness to the outcome because once you get the outcome, you'll start saying, okay, now what?

然后你就重新设定目标。

And then you'll reset.

接着就是不断重复这一套，没完没了。

And then, it's just a series of that, which goes on forever.

如果你把最终的幸福全寄托在这些上面，那你永远都在把幸福往后推。

And ultimately, if you connect your ultimate happiness to that, you're just pushing your happiness out all the time.

你那是子三小时马拉松，别拿你标准说别人，艾伦。

Speak for yourself, Alan, you sub three hour marathon.

我只要跑进三小时，我就满足了。

I will be happy when I run under three hours.

你当然会满足，但等你真跑成了，咱们再聊聊看。

Certainly you will a time, but it'll be interesting to talk to you once you've done it.

我现在挺知足的，不过你也知道。

I'm content, but you know.

也许两小时五十五分吧。

Maybe two fifty five.

你觉得两小时五十五分怎么样？

What do think two fifty five?

或者你可以换个思路。

Or maybe what you'll do is you'll change gears.

我想说的是，我希望能和越野跑建立更好的关系，或者类似的东西。

You'll well I'd like to have a better relationship with trail running or something like that.

我不知道，也许当你不再执着于这个目标时，突然就明白了。

I don't know, you might suddenly when that's off

我觉得

I the think

我们一直说的，就像菲利·鲍登讲的，要学会享受过程，热爱训练，努力把它做好，不断调整，而不是一味地埋头苦干，还假装自己很开心。

you and I have said is we need to increasingly focus on loving, as Philly Bowden says, loving the grind, loving the training process, trying to get it right, nuancing it, you know, not just let's just work, work, work and pretend like we're really happy.

我们总是精疲力尽。

We're exhausted all the time.

不，那太傻了。

No, that's dumb.

这太傻了。

That's dumb.

这根本一点都不聪明。

That's not smart at all.

咱们来做点让我们感兴趣、有动力，同时又有挑战性、能推动我们前进的事，也要有休息和恢复，保持平衡。

Let's do something that interests us and motivates us and that is hard to push us forward, but also has rest and recovery and balances up.

包含最大摄氧量训练、节奏跑，让我们能评估自己跑步能力的进步。

And does VO2 max work, does tempo work, allows us to evaluate how we're developing our running.

而且要从中学到乐趣。

And let's get joy out of that.

是的，有时候就先做你喜欢的训练吧。

Yeah, sometimes just do the workouts that you like for a while.

比如你要是喜欢最大摄氧量训练，或者喜欢在跑道上跑五公里配速，那就去做这些。

Like if you like VO2 max, or if you like five ks pace on the track, like, well, do those.

每周做一两次，就这样。

Do those once or twice a week for Yeah.

六周。

Six weeks.

为什么不呢？

Why not?

对。

Yeah.

如果你不在训练周期里，不妨停几周，好好休息一下。

Well, you know, stop for a few weeks and have a few weeks off if you're not in a training block.

这样等到下一个训练周期来的时候，你才能带着热情全身心投入。

So that when the training block comes around, you commit to it with certain amount of enthusiasm.

我觉得这倒是给这本书一个不错的收尾。

I think that's a kind of a good outro on the book.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我想最后一个问题是，你觉得这本书适合谁，因为通常我们都会谈谈这个。

So I guess the last question that we'll answer is who we think this book is for, because that's, you know, usually give some thoughts about that.

我觉得这本书适合那些不是想找那种特别细节的训练营养指南的人，比如我们之前读过的那些，会具体告诉你每周训练多少小时就得吃多少克碳水化合物每公斤体重。这本书不是这类的。

I think that this book is for, I guess it's not, it's not so much one of the books, like we've covered some books that really go through the nitty gritty of like, if you're training this many hours per week, you need to have this many grams of carbs per kilogram of body weight So this is not that book.

这本书更侧重于你和食物之间的关系，当然里面也稍微提到了一些相关内容，比如你训练两小时以上时该摄入多少碳水。

This is more like all of the sort of relationship with food around and like, yes, there is a little bit of all that mixed in the, you know, for example, with the, how much carbohydrate you need when you're training for two hours or more.

这些内容确实有涉及，但重点不在怎么精确计算你该吃多少，而是在于你和食物之间的整体关系。

So there is a little bit of that sprinkled in, but this is a little more on the relationship with food and less on like the nitty gritty of how do you calculate how much you need.

我觉得这本书适合任何想对饮食补给有一个平衡看法的人。

I guess this is like for anybody that's looking for a balanced opinion on fueling.

如果你试过很多种流行饮食法——比如生酮、生食、 Paleo 之类的，结果却越来越累、越来越沮丧，

So if you do feel like you've tried a whole bunch of, I'm gonna say fad eating strategies, paleo or whatever, and I don't know, you're feeling kind of exhausted and discouraged.

那这本书或许能帮你重新思考：饮食补给本来该是什么样子。

Maybe this is kind of the book you need to like reset what fueling should look like.

它不是简单地让你一刀切，把某几类食物全砍掉就行。

It's not usually as simple as like, let's cut out all these food groups or whatever.

事情没那么简单，要复杂得多。

It's more nuanced than that.