历经泪水，依然前行，作者：丽莎·杰克逊

和我一起跑完一百场马拉松的那些人，现在都已经跑了五六百场了。

A 100 with me at my time, they've gone on to do five, six, 700 marathons by now.

我不得不暂停跑马拉松七年，因为丈夫生病了。

I mean, I had to stop running marathons for seven years because my husband was ill.

那时候我没法安心花那么多时间训练，更没法离开他那么久。

So I couldn't, you know, justify spending that much time away from him and that much time training.

但他们一直坚持着，至今仍是我最大的动力。

But, yeah, they've carried on and they're just such an inspiration to me still.

他们甚至帮我撑过了第一百零九场马拉松，因为后来我又和他们重逢了，那些简短的重逢对话，帮我熬过了无数艰难的里程。

And they actually helped me through my one hundred and ninth marathon, because I met up with them again, and just having those little reconnecting conversations got me through many, many difficult miles.

这太了不起了。

That's amazing.

其实咱们聊聊吧，你之前好几次提到自己跑得不快，甚至在一些比赛里拿过最后一名。

Actually, let's talk about, because you mentioned already quite a few times that like you're not fast, but you've actually, you've actually come last a few times in some of the races.

我觉得这个话题值得说说，因为很多人一想到比赛就怕跑最后一名。

And I think this is kind of, I don't know, I think we should talk about this because a lot of people are intimidated by racing because they don't want to come last.

你都跑过最后一名，但看起来也没对你造成多大打击。

And you've come last, and it didn't seem to be like very traumatizing for you.

有时候感觉你后面还有一群朋友陪着你。

And sometimes it seemed like you, you know, you had some friends back there.

说不准呢。

I don't know.

你有什么想对那些因为怕跑最后一名而不敢参赛的人说的吗？

Do you have anything to say to the people that are, you know, that are kind of scared off by racing because they might come last?

首先我想说，想跑最后一名其实挺不容易的。

Well, first of I'd like to say it's actually very difficult to come last.

你得真下大功夫才行。不过我跑了十七场马拉松才第一次垫底。

You've really got to put a lot of effort into But actually, I ran 17 marathons before I came last.

我一直都是那个速度，没变过。

So, know, I've always been the same pace.

我花了好长时间才终于成了最后一名。

It took quite a while for me to come last.

结果当我真的拿到最后一名时，完全是意外，根本没想到。

And then when I did, it was completely out of the blue by accident.

当时我和跑步俱乐部的一个朋友一起跑，后面还跟着一位收尾的工作人员，他骑着自行车，一路收起赛道上的标识牌。

And I was with a friend from my running club and we were accompanied by the sweeper who was picking up all the race markers as we went along when he was on a bicycle.

他对我们说：‘女士们，我不是来赶你们的。’

And he said, ladies, I'm not here to chase you.

我只是陪着你们，确保你们安全，等你们过去后再收拾赛道、收走标识牌。

I'm just here to keep you company, make sure you're safe and to clear up the course behind you and to take down the markers once you pass them.

当我们到达终点时，现场爆发出巨大的欢呼声。

And when we got to the finish, there was this massive cheer for us.

所有的志愿者都在那儿等着我们。

All the volunteers were waiting for us.

欢呼、喊叫、拍背、拥抱，全都来了。

The cheering, the shouting, the pats on the back, the hugs.

我们还收到了额外的参赛礼包，而这正是我最害怕拿到最后一名的原因。

We got extra goodie bags and that had been my greatest fear coming last.

我不明白自己为啥那么怕这个，就是觉得特别丢脸似的。

Don't know why I feared it so much, but it just felt like this terrible shame or something.

但经历过一次之后，我才明白，根本没什么大不了的，迷路完全不是问题。

And once I'd experienced that, I was thinking this is, there's no problem, there's no problem coming lost at all.

事实上，这还值得庆祝呢。

In fact, it's something to be celebrated.

现在呢，我反而有点失望，要是发现自己没迷路，就会想，唉，要是再慢一点，说不定更有意思。

And these days, I'm a bit disappointed when I find out that I'm not lost because I think, oh, you know, if I just slow down a little bit more, could add to my taste.

我已经迷路25次了，每次迷路都没吃过亏。

I've come lost 25 times now and I've never had a bad experience coming lost.

真的从来没有过。

I really haven't.

从来没人跟我说过这有多丢人。

No one said to me how embarrassing.

有些人可能觉得迷路挺羞耻的，但我完全不这么觉得。

Some people, I suppose, do feel that that's something to be ashamed of, but I certainly don't.

因为我觉得，那些有这种想法的人，通常都是不跑步的。

Because I kind of think the people who feel like that are usually people who don't run.

我就想，可你有没有过那种勇气，在受伤的时候、明明跑得慢、或者根本没时间好好训练的情况下，还站到起跑线上？

And I just think, yeah, but how many times have you taken the courage to go and stand on that start line when you've been injured, when you've been, well, you're just slow, or you haven't had time to do all the training?

大概一次都没有吧。

Well, probably no, no times at all.

所以我反而更替他们感到遗憾，而不是他们替我感到遗憾。

So I feel more sorry for them than they have to feel for me.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

说得真好。

That's good.

没错。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

好吧。

All right.

所以对于那些觉得跑步让人望而生畏的人，现在你们明白了吧。

So for anybody that's intimidated by running, there you go.

我觉得，如果我们听众里还有谁没跑过马拉松，听了丽莎分享她的经历后，现在真该认真考虑一下了。

I think so far if we if we've got anybody in our listenership who haven't done a marathon yet, you should be seriously thinking about it now having listened to Lisa explain her experience with it.

你完全来得及。

You are quick enough.

你做得到，你有能力完成。

You can't, you are capable, you can do it.

就算最后一名，也能玩得很开心。

And even if you come last, you could have a really good time.

总结得真好。

So good summary there.

咱们是不是可以聊聊格雷厄姆，还有他后来怎么样了。

Maybe we could talk a little bit about Graham and, and you know, what happened to Graham.

也许你可以讲讲他是怎么确诊癌症的，结合你照顾格雷厄姆的经历，后来你也是照顾你爸爸，不过这两者可能还是有点不一样。

Maybe you can give the background of how he was diagnosed with cancer, but then in your experience caring for Graham, and after that, you were also a caregiver for your dad, but maybe, you know, it was a little bit different.

如果重来一次，有没有什么事是你当初会早点做的？比如多请点帮手之类的？

Is there anything that you maybe would have done earlier if you could do it over, like hire more help or something like that?

那你可以跟我们说说看。

So maybe you can talk to us.

先跟我们讲讲格雷厄姆吧。

Start by telling us about Graham.

我18岁上大学时遇见了格雷厄姆，那一眼就爱上了。

Well, I was very lucky to meet Graham when I was 18 at university, and it really was love at first sight.

和他一聊天，我就感觉好像这辈子早就认识他了。

I just spent the next I felt like I'd known him all my life when I started talking to him.

那感觉特别奇妙，因为他从小在世界各地奔波，父母是外交官，而我却一直待在家里。

Was actually a really, really strange experience because he'd grown up traveling the world, his parents were diplomats, and I'd spent my entire life at home.

他是在英国的寄宿学校长大的。

He'd grown up in boarding school in England.

我在南非长大的。

I'd grown up in South Africa.

所以我们俩居然有这么多共同点，这真有点奇怪。

So it's actually quite strange that we just seem to have so much in common.

我妈妈从小就教我要看重人的内在品质。

But the thing was, my mother brought me up to value values in people.

更看重一个人的内心，而不是外表。

So it was more what's inside rather than physical appearance.

当然，我觉得格雷厄姆特别英俊。

Although I did think Graham was incredibly handsome.

但那并不是我认定非他不嫁的主要原因。

That wasn't the main reason that I just knew that I was going to marry him.

而是他身上所有我欣赏的品质。

It was just every kind of quality that I admire in someone.

他不物质，重视教育，像你一样，艾伦，他正在攻读博士学位，我爸爸也有博士学位，所以我明白要达成这样的目标需要多大的投入。

He wasn't materialistic, he valued education, he was studying for a PhD like you Alan, and my dad had a PhD so I knew the kind of dedication it took to achieve something like that.

他特别善良，特别幽默，还总爱调皮捣蛋。

He was just incredibly kind, incredibly funny, a really mischievous person.

我们俩整天笑个不停。

We spend so much time laughing.

如果非要说最想念他什么，那就是整天和他一起大笑的时光。

I think if I have to say the thing I miss most about him is just spending all day laughing.

我们觉得啥都好笑，这种幽默感真很难说清楚。

We would just find everything funny and it's very hard to explain humor like that.

比如圣诞节的时候，满大街都是香水广告，他每次都装作第一次看见似的。

At Christmas time for example, there's a lot of perfume adverts and he'd always act as if he'd never noticed that before.

他就问：这又是香水广告？

So he goes, is that another perfume advert?

这又是香水广告？

Is that another perfume advert?

我就回他：你真信了？

And I go, do you believe it is?

他还说，圣诞节期间的香水广告真是多得离谱。

And he goes, there's an awful lot of perfume adverts at Christmas time.

这实在说不清楚。

I can't explain it.

然后我们就笑得直不起腰来。

And then we just kill ourselves laughing.

我们之间总有这些莫名其妙的小事，外人根本没法理解。

We just had these silly things that is very hard to explain to an outsider.

他还一直支持我追求所有目标，因为跑马拉松和当作家是我最大的两个梦想，没有他的支持，我根本做不到。

Also, he supported me in all my goals because becoming a marathon runner and becoming an author were my two biggest dreams and I couldn't have done that without his support.

他包揽了所有家务，我则全职工作，还要通勤。

So he did all the housework, and I worked full time and I commuted as well.

我常常工作到晚上九点、十点甚至十一点，或者在训练，诸如此类。

And I'd worked till 09:00 at night or ten or eleven, you know, or I'd be training or whatever.

他一个人打理整个家，买菜、做饭、打扫，让我能专心实现自己的梦想。

And he'd just run the household, do all the shopping, all the cooking, all the cleaning so that I could achieve my dreams.

他甚至还陪我一起跑步。

And he even joined me in running.

他其实特别讨厌跑步。

He actually hated running.

他根本是跑步的死对头，但还是跑了三十场马拉松，还有两场五百六十一公里的科马德马拉松，他自己说都是被迫的。

He was an absolute running hater, but he did 30 marathons and two fifty six mile comrades marathons against his will, so he said.

因为我偷偷给他报了名。

Just because I entered him into those races.

我以前总是偷偷给他报名，从不提前告诉他，然后他就会问：这周末我们干嘛？

I just used to enter him and not tell him and then I just he'd say, what are we doing this weekend?

我就说：跑马拉松。

And I'd say, running a marathon.

他就会说：你开玩笑吧？

He'd oh, you're joking.

我就说：真的，真的，别推了，快来。

I'd say, no, no, no, come.

不，你得开车送我去，我不喜欢开车。

No, you just gotta drive me there because I didn't like driving.

所以他一直以来都特别支持我，真的很难得。

So, he was incredible, you know, support to me my whole life.

有一天他出去跑步，回家后说喘不上气来。

Then one day he went for a run and he came home and said he couldn't breathe.

我当时特别震惊，但还以为是他太久没训练了。

I was so shocked but I actually thought it was just because he hadn't done any training for ages.

我说，你跑得太快了。

I said, Yeah, you ran too fast.

他说，你不懂。

He said, No, you don't understand.

我连路都没跑完。

I couldn't get to the end of the road.

他一直很注重自己的健康。

He was very proactive about his health.

他立刻去看医生，做了各种X光和活检，结果确诊为石棉引起的肺癌。

He went to the doctor straight away through various x rays and biopsies and stuff, he was diagnosed with asbestos related lung cancer.

他在伦敦白厅的办公室工作时，长期接触了石棉。

So he'd been exposed to asbestos in his office at work in Whitehall in London.

我当时真想替他挡住那些可怕的资料，因为间皮瘤这种肺癌特别凶险，存活期常常只有几个月。

And yeah, I mean, I wanted to protect him from the terrible information I was reading, because mesothelioma, this kind of lung cancer, is an incredibly aggressive cancer and the prognosis for it is sometimes merely months.

这种病非常罕见。

Very, very rare.

我记得只有百分之三到五的人能活过五年。

I think it's three or five percent people live past five years.

这个诊断结果实在太让人震惊了。

So it was a very shocking diagnosis.

我做了所有调研，因为我是个记者。

So I did all the research because I'm a journalist.

我把这些压力都扛了下来，没让他操心。

I took that burden off him.

他本身也是一名研究员。

He's a researcher as well.

他本来可以自己去查，但我就是不想让他看这些，因为每当我读到关于生存期的数据，心里都像被狠狠揍了一拳。

So he could have done it, but I just wanted to protect him from reading that because I knew every time I read a statistic about the life expectancy, it would be a kick to my stomach.

就连那些最有希望的新临床试验，也不过是让人多活几周，最多一两个月。

I mean, even reading about the most promising new trials was adding weeks to people's lives or maybe a month or two.

根本不是那样。

It wasn't.

不会让你多活五年、十年。

This is going to extend your life by five years or ten years.

那真是一段极其艰难的旅程。

So it was a very, very challenging journey.

刚开始我们俩都震惊又绝望。

We were very, very shocked and depressed to begin with.

我们甚至一度考虑过一起结束生命。

We even considered a suicide pact.

自杀协议。

Pact.

简直让人难以置信。

It was just so unbelievable.

我无法想象没有格雷厄姆的日子。

I did not think I could live without Graham.

后来我们决定，要怀着希望生活，而不是活在恐惧中。

And then we took a decision to live in hope, not fear.

我认为，这是任何人一生中最重要的决定。

And that was the most important decision I think anyone can ever take.

我对格雷厄姆说，如果我们一直想着你该怎么死，是会痛苦地走吗？能正常呼吸吗？会不会喘不过气？你到底会怎么离开？

Because I said to Graham, you know, if we sit here and just think about how you're going to die, are you going to die in pain, are you going be able to breathe, are you going be gasping for breath, how are you going to die?

如果整天想着死亡，只会毁掉当下的每一刻。尤其是他做完手术后，其实状态还不错。

And we think about your death all the time, it's going to ruin the here and now and at the moment once he'd had his surgery especially, he was fine.

他一直全职工作，直到去世前一个月。

You know, worked full time until a month before his death.

所以我跟他说，我们不能让死亡的阴影污染我们的思绪。

So I just said to him, we cannot allow our thoughts to be contaminated by the sphere of death.

他完全接受了这个想法。

And he wholeheartedly embraced this.

我真的很幸运。

I was so lucky.

我们简直就是完美的搭档。

We were an absolute team.

我们的想法完全一致。

We had exactly the same vision.

所有事情我们都会一起商量。

We discussed everything together.

所以我亲自照顾他的一切日常起居，因为我不想让别人替我丈夫做那些我能做的事。

So I did, you know, the end I did all his personal care because I didn't want anyone else to do things for my husband that I could do myself.

说实话，唯一我没法做的，就是打针了。

I mean the only thing I couldn't do was administer injections really.

但其他所有事我都全心全意地帮忙做了。

But everything else I wholeheartedly helped with.

这对我来说是一种荣耀。

It was an honor.

能为格雷厄姆做这些，是我一生最大的荣幸，因为他一辈子都在照顾我。

It was an absolute honor of my life to do that for Graham, because he'd spent so much of his life looking after me.

我后来去南非照顾我爸的时候，也是同样的感觉。

And it was the same when I went to South Africa, to look after my dad.

他一直是我最大的榜样，能陪他度过生命的最后八个月，我觉得那可能是他最快乐的时光——我从没见过我爸这么开心。

You know, he'd been such an inspiration to me and to spend the last eight months of his life with him, which I think were actually the happiest, I'd never seen my dad as happy.

他变得特别有幽默感，这可不是他以前给人的印象。

He's developed an incredible sense of humor, which I won't say was something my dad was known for before that.

我们俩老是互相打趣，我特别享受那种感觉。

We used to tease each other all the time and I just loved it.

他无条件地爱着我。

He just loved me unconditionally.

我是说，大家对我的爱真是让人感动。

I mean the outpouring of love towards me was so amazing.

看得出来，他真的很享受有你陪在身边。

It's clear in that the he clearly loved having you beside him.

是的。

Yeah.

所以从这一点来看，你的付出也得到了回报。

So your commitment to him was rewarded from that point of view.

没错。

Absolutely.

你知道的，虽然他得了痴呆症，但他从来没忘记过我。

You know, he never although he had dementia, he never forgot who I was.

疗养院里所有人都认识我的名字，因为他总是打听我的消息，我每天从早上九点一直陪他到晚上七点，一天都没落下。

Everyone in the care home knew my name because he was always asking after me and I was with him from literally nine in the morning till seven at night every single day.

我去照顾他，只是因为我太想他了。

I just went because I missed him.

如果我不花时间和他在一起，其实我会很想他。

If I wasn't spending time with him, actually missed him.

所以，是的，那段时间有点……

So, yeah, it was a little

你刚才提到的一个点真的很特别。

You actually mentioned something really interesting too.

你在书里说过，人在生命尽头的时候，好像所有美好的品质都会被放大，或者类似的情况。

You said in the book that, that people at the end of their life, it's like, it's like all of the good qualities get enhanced or something.

所以那段时间，你看到的就像是他最好的一面，而且

So it was like you were experiencing like his best version and

对，没错。

Oh yeah, yeah.

我爸爸，在我长大的那会儿，脾气挺大的，我们以前都叫他‘龙卷风’，因为有一部动画片叫《龙卷风》。

My dad, when I was growing up, my dad had quite a temper and we used to call him Rumpel because shorts for Rumpels, Soltskin.

你知道，就是那个童话里的小精灵，动不动就发脾气、跺脚的那种。

You know, the fairy tale character who has little fits and stomps his foot.

我爸爸完全不是这样。

And my dad just didn't have any of that.

他一直都知道我是谁。

Mean, he always knew who I was.

他常跟我开玩笑。

I mean, he used to play tricks for me.

他会假装不认识我。

He used to pretend he didn't know who I was.

我一进门，他就坐在那儿，眼都不带看我一下，我心里咯噔一下：坏了，今天爸爸是不是认不出我了？

I'd walk in and there he was sitting there and he just looked right through me and I go, no, oh no, this is the day my dad doesn't recognize me anymore.

我就喊：爸，爸，是我啊，你认得我的。

And I go, Dad, dad, it's me, you know.

然后他突然张开双臂，一把抱住我，说：丽莎，来，给爸爸一个大大的拥抱。

And then he suddenly just put his arms out to me and say, Lisa, give me this massive hug.

能有那段时光陪在他身边，我真的特别幸运。

So I was so blessed to spend that time with him.

他走得很平静，因为他后来也得了癌症。

And he had a very peaceful death because he also developed cancer.

他得了前列腺癌，癌细胞已经扩散到骨头了，而骨癌是那种最痛苦的癌症之一。

He actually got prostate cancer, which has spread his bones, which is and bone cancer is one of the most painful cancers you can ever have.

我一直在担心，怕我爸会像格雷厄姆那样，在生命最后经历那样的痛苦。

So I was absolutely dreading my dad going through what Graham went through at the end of his life.

结果我爸感染了新冠，有一天就安安静静地睡过去了，走得特别平静。

And then my dad, caught Covid, and he actually just fell asleep one day, and had a very peaceful death.

但他跟我说过的话，我一辈子都忘不了，他说他爱我这种特别有味道的性格。

But the things he said to me, and I'll never forget, like he just said, he loved my delicious personality.

能有我爸在身边，真的特别好。

And it was so nice to just have my dad.

他不像我这么爱说话，可他居然说他连我这点安静的个性也喜欢，这让我觉得特别珍贵。

He wasn't as talkative and chatty as I am and just to have him acknowledge that he even loved that part of me as well was incredibly special to me.

你在书里提到过，关于格雷厄姆的治疗，还有各种治疗方案的探索，这些内容我印象很深。

One of the things that I saw in the book that you say around I think it was Graham's treatment and exploring treatments and quite a lot of different parts of treatment.

你书里提到一点，说要接受诊断结果，但不要接受预后判断。

One of the things you say is to accept the diagnosis but not the prognosis.

这话具体是什么意思呢？

What do mean by that?

对，这个观点是我从一本书里看到的，我觉得特别有价值。因为如果你给自己设定一个存活期限，潜意识里就会觉得那才是最终结局。

Yeah I got that from a book and it's one of those most valuable things because if you set a time limit on how long you're going to be alive you sort of inform your unconscious mind that

也就是说

that's what

你心里有这个预期，所以你的生命很可能就会在那个时候走到尽头。

you expect and therefore you're more likely to have your life end at that point.

这有点像那种所谓的“巫毒死亡”，就是有人告诉你，我给你下了诅咒，你下个月就会死。

So it's a little bit like voodoo deaths when people are told I put a curse on you and you're going to die next month.

这种想法会直接渗透到你整个潜意识里，让你真的相信那就是结局。

Know it just informs your whole unconscious mind that that's the expectation.

所以我们当然不能否认格雷厄姆得的是那种非常凶险的肺癌，但医生当时给他的预期寿命是十八个月到五年。

So we obviously couldn't deny that Graham had a very aggressive form of lung cancer, but they gave him eighteen months to five years to live.

我们找到了一位外科医生，最近刚见过面，他说他的很多病人活过了五年。

And we found a surgeon, who I've just met up with recently, who said, Oh, loads of my patients have lived longer than five years.

他前几天跟我讲了一个病例，患者活了十六年。

He told me a story the other day of sixteen years.

所以我们决定，接受诊断，但完全忽略那些说格雷厄姆只剩几年可活的预言。

So we just said, Okay, we accept the diagnosis, but the prognosis of this life limiting sentence that's been passed on Graham that we just disregard.

我们真心实意地过好了每一天。

So we honestly lived our lives to the fullest.

他一直全职工作。

He was working full time.

其实格雷厄姆离世时，那位医生特别惊讶，因为只有百分之三的间皮瘤患者会转移到大脑，而格雷厄姆偏偏撞上了这百分之三。

And actually, I think the surgeon was so surprised when Graham died because only three percent of mesothelioma patients have the cancer spread to their brain, and Graham was unlucky to be in that three percent.

他也不幸属于那百分之七十五对免疫疗法没有反应的群体。

And he was also unlucky to be in the seventy five percent of people who don't respond to immunotherapy.

各种不利因素全凑到他身上了。

Somehow the odds were stacked against him.

另外，他有一个基因缺陷，让他更容易患上间皮瘤。

Also, he had a defective gene which made him more likely to develop mesothelioma.

所以两个人接触同样量的石棉，一个会得癌，另一个却不会。

So two people could be exposed to the same amount of asbestos and one would get the cancer and one wouldn't.

当时有很多不利因素，但我们没去纠结这些。

So there were a lot of bad luck elements, but we didn't focus on those.

我们一直抱着希望，觉得他会是活得最久的那个人。

We always just lived in hope that he'd be the longest surviving person.

别人要是愿意把这叫作否认，那就随他们吧。

And people can call that denial if they wish.

但这其实是一种很有帮助的自我保护机制。

But it's actually a very helpful protective mechanism.

很多人根本不知道格雷厄姆得了癌症。

A lot of people didn't even know Graham had cancer.

我记得有时候是在疫情期间，他在家接受化疗，就那样坐着。

I mean, used to sit sometimes it was during Covid he'd be hooked up to chemo because he had chemo at home.

他会安排一位穿白大褂的护士在视线之外待命，然后他在Zoom上开会，大家都不知道他得了癌症。

He'd have a white suited nurse sitting out of sight and he'd be working on Zoom calls, and people did not know he had cancer.

有很多人

There were many people

在国会办公室

in the coronal office who

对Graham得了癌症感到震惊，因为他看起来非常健康，行为举止也完全正常，而且心态特别积极，真的非常乐观。

were shocked that Graham had cancer because he looked so healthy and he acted so healthy and he was positive, you know, he really was positive.

这不是盲目的乐观，而是发自内心的积极态度。

And it wasn't fake positivity, it was authentic positivity.

所以我们就做了一本关于积极心态的书，封面上贴满了纸杯蛋糕的贴纸，因为我喜欢纸杯蛋糕，看着它们我就觉得开心。

So that's why we created a positivity book, and it was covered in cupcake stickers, because I like cupcakes, it makes me feel happy when I look at them.

我们把所有跟格雷厄姆的癌症有关的积极因素都列了出来。

We just wrote down every single factor that was positive, you know, about Graham's cancer.

在两百名患者中，只有两个人在手术期间不需要输血，他就是其中之一。

He was one of only two out of two hundred people, he was one of two, who didn't have to have a blood transfusion during his surgery.

他得的是最幸运的一种间皮瘤，更容易治疗，患者存活时间也更长。

He had the best kind of mesothelioma that was more treatable and people lived longer etc.

别人对我们和我们韧性的评价，比如‘要是你们能挺过这段，就没什么过不去的’这类话，我们都记在了书里。

And then comments that people made about us and our resilience and, you know, if you can get through comrades, can get through this all that kind of stuff we put in that book.

这本书成了我们不断回顾和强化生活中积极面的工具。

So it was a continual reference and reinforcement of the positive things that were happening.

再糟糕的情况里，也总会有积极的一面。

Because there's always positive things in any negative situation.

积极的事情一直都在，只是我们总被训练着去记住坏的，这是生存本能。所以我们现在只专注好的一面。

There are always positive things, but you forget about them because we're trained to remember the bad things as a survival So we just focus on the positive.

老实说，他在生病的两年里，我们去了22个国家，后来疫情来了，旅行就停了。

And honestly, we traveled to 22 countries in two years while he was ill, and then COVID hit, so we didn't travel.

那两年里，我们写了两本旅行日记，一本叫《旅行中的宁静》，另一本叫《旅行代理人》。

And in those two years, we wrote two travel logs, Travel Seekness and Travel Agents.

我们珍惜他生命里的每一分钟，尽可能过得充实。

So we made the most of, you know, every minute that he had in his life.

而且我也确实一直在督促格雷厄姆。

And also I'd really pushed Graham.

我是个目标导向型的人。

I'm very goal orientated.

你知道的，我们一起去了100个国家，等等。

You know, we had gone to 100 countries together, etc.

这都是我推着他去做的。

And that was me pushing him.

所以我当时真不知道他会那么早离开。

So I didn't know he was going to die young.

我是说，他去世的时候才58岁。

I mean, he died at 58.

但如果你看看他这一生，在58年里他写了两本书，去了108个国家，那时候可能还没到108个，反正超过100个，还跑完了那么多马拉松，也完成了环哥德马拉松。

But if you looked at his life, what he achieved in fifty eight years writing two books, traveling to 108 countries, whatever it was at that time, it was fewer countries, so over 100, doing all those marathons, doing comrades.

他把人生过得满满当当。

He packed it all in.

这压力其实是我自己给的，因为我本来就是这种特别有冲劲的人。

And it was the pressure for me because I am a real, go getter in that respect.

但他告诉我，他原谅了我逼他跑步的事。

But he told me he forgave running.

这事儿挺让人意外的。

Was quite interesting.

他临终前跟我说：我知道你硬拉着我跑那么多马拉松，但我原谅你了。

Just before he died, he said to me, you know, I forgive you for forcing me into all those marathons.

其实我心里偷偷喜欢跑这些比赛。

Like actually, I did secretly like doing them.

我明白，就是因为他性格太倔了。

I knew it was because he was so stubborn.

如果他真不想跑，他也不会说，这给我带来了太多快乐，也让我们更亲近了。

If he didn't want to do them really, And he just said, yeah, it just brought me so much joy and us closer together.

当然，这也帮他早早就发现了病情。

And obviously it helped him with his early diagnosis as well.

是的，最后一切都释怀了。

Yeah, all was forgiven in the end.

他在接受治疗期间其实也一直在跑步，我记得你之前说过，运动对癌症患者有好处？

And he did end up running during his treatment as well, I think, Because I think you had read that exercise is actually good for cancer patients?

没错。

Absolutely.

每个癌症患者情况都不一样，有些人连去邮局都跑不动，但格雷厄姆一直尽可能坚持跑步。

I mean, every cancer patient is different, so some people can't even run to the post box, But Graham kept up the running as much as he possibly could.

有些初步研究显示，运动能提高化疗的效果。

I mean, are some preliminary studies that show it can enhance the effectiveness of chemo.

它显然能极大改善情绪，因为癌症患者很容易陷入焦虑和抑郁，风险非常高。

It obviously boosts your mood incredibly, because when you're a cancer patient, the danger of anxiety and depression is very high, the likelihood of it developing.

他刚完成第一轮化疗，第一件事就是去捷克跑了一场半程马拉松。

So, I mean the first thing he did when he finished his first rounds of chemo was run a half marathon in The Czech Republic.

他顺利完成了比赛，拿到了奖牌，特别开心。

And he managed to finish, got his medal, he was chuffed.

事实上，我刚委托制作了一座格雷厄姆的青铜雕像，刻画的就是他跑半马那天的情景。结果我因为跑得太慢被劝离了赛道，这还是我跑半马以来头一回。

In fact, I've just commissioned a bronze statue of Graham and it's that day that he ran his half marathon and I got kicked off the course for being too slow, which was a first for me in a half marathon.

骑自行车的工作人员过来跟我说：‘请离开赛道。’

So the guys in bicycles came up and said, Get off the course.

于是我灰头土脸地回了酒店，结果看到格雷厄姆脖子上挂着奖牌，笑得特别灿烂。

So I slunk home to my hotel and there was Graham beaming with his needle around his neck.

我们把这张照片发给了他的主刀医生和医生的妻子——她也是一位跑者。

And we sent the photo to his surgeon and his surgeon's wife, who's also a runner.

那真是巨大的胜利。

And that was a massive triumph.

格雷厄姆跟我说：‘一个刚做完化疗的老人，能跑成这样，不赖吧？’

Graham said to me, Not bad for an old man who's just finished chemo.

我为他感到无比骄傲。

I was so proud of him.

说实话，你从没见过他脸上有那样的笑容，而那正是我在这座青铜像里想定格的瞬间。

Honestly, you've never seen a grin like that on his face and that's what I've captured in this bronze that I've commissioned.

我们跑步的人常常觉得跑步是为了健康。

Often as runners we think of running as health related thing.

觉得它能让你保持健康。

Think okay, it will keep you healthy.

但事实上，真正带来巨大改变的，是那种‘我能行’的心态、积极的态度，这些心理层面的东西，往往比身体上的挑战更重要。

But in fact it seems to be the mental the can do and the positivity and the mental aspects of it that bring just as much if not more to your person versus some challenges.

这虽然是个极端的挑战，但其实任何挑战都一样。

This is an extreme challenge but it could be any kind of challenge.

我完全同意。

No, I absolutely agree.

跑步，尤其是和跑友一起跑，让我明白我们能做的远比自己想象的多。

I mean running taught me, especially running comrades, that we're capable of much more than we think.

它给了我一种无比坚韧的心态。

It just gave me this unbelievable bulletproof mindset.

我当时就想给格雷厄姆找世界上最好的外科医生，结果还真让我找到了。

You know, I was going to find Graham the best surgeon in the world and I found him.

我不会让他们只给格雷厄姆做四轮化疗，我们明明说好是六轮的。

I wasn't going to allow them to give Graham only four rounds of chemo when we had agreed on six.

我当时有一股不服输的劲头，我知道自己能突破极限，也相信我能推动别人做正确的事。

You know, I had such fighting spirit and I knew that I could overcome myself and my own limitations and I also knew that I could push other people to do the right thing.

跑步，很明显能让你远离电脑。

Running, I mean obviously it gives you time away from your computer.

它给你空间，让你静下心来理清思路。

It gives you headspace to think things through.

奥古斯丁说过，问题靠散步能解决，但跑步或者跑走结合，效果也一样。

Know, since Augustine said it is solved through walking, but it's also solved through running or walk running.

我觉得，要是没有跑步，我真熬不过那四年。

So I think I mean, I don't think I could have got through those four years if I wasn't running.

我跑的量其实远不如该跑的那么多。

I didn't run nearly as much as I should have.

我说实话吧。

I'll be honest with you.

我跟你说过为什么我不跑马拉松。

Told you why I didn't do marathons.

我只是没有那种拼劲儿，因为每次马拉松都是跟自己较劲，硬撑着冲过终点。

I just didn't have the fight in me because every marathon was a fight with myself to get across the finish line.

但你知道，吃垃圾食品的诱惑特别大，以前我们根本不会碰这些东西。

But you know, it's tempting to eat junk food which we'd never really eaten before.

我偶尔也会放纵一下，比如吃肯德基。

I sometimes indulged in things like KFC.

我有十年没吃过肯德基了，但格雷厄姆生病后，我就特别想吃肯德基、巧克力、红酒这类东西。

I don't think I'd eaten KFC for ten years and when Graham got sick, want to eat KFC and chocolate and wine and things like that.

可这些根本不是好的应对方式，我真心建议大家，哪怕只出去跑五分钟也好。

But those are not helpful coping strategies really and I really want to encourage people, you know, just going for a five minute run.

我真希望当初能降低对自己的要求，直接跟自己说：丽莎，别想那么多，就跑五分钟吧。

I just wish I'd really reduced my expectations of running and I could have just said to myself, you know what Lisa, just go for five minutes.

没必要跟自己较劲。

It doesn't have to be a fight with yourself.

也不用非得跑完五公里什么的。

It doesn't have to be, you know, achieving a five ks or anything.

只要出去跑五分钟就够了，那真的会带来巨大改变。

Just go for five minutes because that would have made a massive difference.

另外，我在重新找回跑步感觉的过程中，也明白了热身有多重要。

And the other thing that I've learned through regaining my running mojo was the importance of warming up.

以前我觉得热身纯粹是浪费时间，从来都不做。

You know, I just thought it was an absolute waste of time and I never ever once warmed up.

我甚至真想让人用独轮车把我推到马拉松起点，

I'd literally, you know, I really want to be taken in a wheelbarrow to the start line of a marathon.

免得在那些不算数的路程上白白耗体力。

So that I didn't waste any energy, you know, doing miles that didn't count.

训练跑也是一样。

And it's the same with training runs.

后来我发现，只要出去走五分钟，不管跟谁在一起——不管是录播客时一起跑、和跑友同行，还是独自一人——这已经成了我雷打不动的习惯。

And then I discovered that just going out and doing a five minute walk, and I don't care who I'm with, I could be on a podcast running with someone or I could be with my running buddy or on my own, that is a non negotiable now.

那五分钟我用来走路，能让关节分泌滑液，这样一开始跑步就会舒服很多，身体反应也没那么剧烈。

I walk for those five minutes, it releases synovial fluid in your joints and it just makes when you do start running so much more comfortable and so much less dramatic.

所以这是我吃过大亏才学到的教训，热身真的非常重要。

So that's something that I've learned the hard way how important that warm up really is.

我是说，别做那些动态拉伸，比如像怪异的走路动作之类的，因为我是在公共场合做这些，其实挺不好意思的。

I mean, don't do dynamic stretches like funny walks and things like that because I am doing it in public and I don't really.

反正戴着我那个奇怪的帽子，别人已经觉得我够疯的了。

People think I'm crazy enough with my bramingo hat anyway.

走路这件事确实带来了巨大的改变。如果你从我这本书里只带走一条建议，那就是：那五分钟的运动，可能决定你是陷入抑郁、自我否定的一天，还是充满活力、有力气去应对生活的一天。

Definitely the walking thing has made a massive difference and I just, you know, if anyone takes any measures from my book, it should just be, you know, that five minute run can be the difference between a day spent in depression, a day feeling bad about yourself, and a day that you feel you've got the energy and the power to carry

去坚持战斗。

on fighting.

我觉得那五分钟也决定了你能不能去跑步，因为我们也差不多有同样的规矩。

I think also that five minutes could be the difference between you getting a run and not, because we kind of had a little bit the same rule.

我记得我以前的教练，那是好几年前的事了。

I remember my coach at one point, this was my my previous coach, so you know, quite a few years ago.

他说，别在家里的时候决定要不要锻炼。

He said, he said, you know, don't decide while you're in your house if you're if you're gonna do the workout or not.

先穿上衣服，出门再说。

Like get dressed, go out the door.

如果跑了五分钟觉得实在不行，再回家也行，但你最后总会跑起来。

And if after five minutes, like the run is no good, like it's a no go, then you go back home, but you always end up running.

你几乎从来不会真的掉头回家。

You almost never end up going back home.

所以这道理其实差不多。

And so it's a little bit the same thing.

就是，干脆先出门，跑五分钟再说。

It's kind of like, yeah, just get yourself out the door, go five minutes.

对你来说，有时候可能只能跑五分钟，因为有别的事，但五分钟总比零分钟强。

And actually, like for you, maybe sometimes it would have been five minutes because you had other obligations, but it would have been five minutes more than zero minutes.

所以

So

是动机跟着行动走。

It's motivation follows action.

不是行动跟着动机走。

It's not action follows motivation.

而且，Liz，我完全就是这么做的。

And, Liz, I've done exactly that.

我从来都不想让跑步跟什么负面的事情扯上关系。

I never ever want running to be associated with negative things.

所以我有时候会这样，我觉得我一次只能想到一个例子。

So I have at times, as I think it's I can actually only think of one at a time.

把自己装备得全副武装。

Got fully kitted out.

那天真的特别冷。

It was really cold.

我打开了前门。

I opened my front door.

我一下子脑子都冻住了，就是那种喝奶昔后头疼的感觉。

I got an instant brain freeze, you know, milkshake headache.

我当时就想，这种天气我绝对不跑。

And I just thought, I'm not running in this.

真的不跑。

I'm just not.

这肯定得是场噩梦。

This is gonna make this is gonna be horrible.

我直接转身回屋了。

I went straight back in.

我翻开《跑者世界》，看了整整半小时。

I opened my copy of Runner's World and I read Runner's World for half an So I absolutely have a deal with myself.

我跟自己有个约定：要是感觉特别糟糕，那就不跑。

If it's going to be hideous, I don't do it.

但真正觉得糟糕的时候其实少之又少，而且我也完全明白你说的——我给自己留了退路。

But the times that it's going to be hideous are very far and few between and I also know exactly what you said, I give myself the get out clause.

丽莎，如果你觉得提不起劲，不如出去透透气，散个步也好。

Lisa, if you're not feeling it, you can just go out in the fresh air for a bit and just have a walk.

好的。

Fine.

但我真想不起来，有哪次我出去走了一圈，然后突然觉得懒得继续了。

But I can't even think of a time when I've just gone out and then thought, I can't be bothered now.

最难的就是系鞋带，我现在换了一双不用系带的跑鞋，一脚蹬上去就行，聪明吧！

I mean the hardest thing is lacing up your trainers and what I've done now is I've got a new pair of trainers that don't need to be laced up, you can just kick them on, called clever!

这下省事多了，我最讨厌弯腰，血压低，一弯腰就头晕，还容易头疼，整个人都累，还没出门就已经没劲了。

And that's just eliminated that one because I hate bending over because I've got low blood pressure so I always find I can get this weird head rush and kind of headache and I just feel tired doing it and I'm already tired by the time I get out the front door.

现在鞋子一踩就上脚，立马就能出发。

And the issue is that my feet just glide into them and then off I go.

我完全同意你的说法，对自己得温柔一点。

So I absolutely agree with you that you need to be kind to yourself.

如果你跟自己定个规矩，比如：感觉不对劲，就回家休息。

If you make a deal with yourself, like if the deal is, if you are not feeling it, you go home.

你得坚持这个约定。

You need to stick to that deal.

如果真的没状态，那就回家吧。

If you are really not feeling it, do go home.

但你已经证明了自己有持续性，我觉得持续性才是最重要的。

But you will have shown that you have got consistency and I think consistency is the most important thing.

我觉得五分钟总比零分钟强。

I think five minutes is better than no minutes.

这一点我是用亲身经历才真正明白的。

And I've really learned that the hard way.

所以，格雷厄姆，你后来失去了格雷厄姆，而你父亲其实成了你的私人支持者，因为他也失去了你母亲，所以他能懂你的感受。

So I guess back Graham, you know, eventually you lost Graham and your dad actually seemed to be a little bit of a, you know, personal support crew for you, because he had lost your mother, and so he kind of knew how you felt.

他有没有说过什么话，对你有帮助，也可能帮到其他刚失去伴侣的人？

Did he say anything that was helpful, that maybe could be helpful to somebody else that's just lost their significant other?

我和父亲其实很少聊格雷厄姆去世的事，但当我母亲走的时候，他说了一句话，特别帮我——他说：‘咱们该庆祝的是和妈妈一起度过的那些年，而不是遗憾那些再也无法共度的时光。’

You know, my dad and I didn't talk a lot about Graham's death, but when my mother died, my dad said something which really helped me and he said 'let's celebrate the years we did have with mommy rather than the years we won't get to spend with her.

对一个正在哀伤的孩子来说，这句话实在太有力量了。

And that was such a profound thing to say to a grieving child.

我父亲根本无法承受我母亲去世的打击。

My father did not cope well with my mother's death at all.

他连火葬场都没法去，就是去不了。

He couldn't come to the crematorium, he just couldn't come.

我们办了一场不是葬礼的告别仪式，而是一场庆祝。

And we organised the whole it wasn't a funeral, it was a celebration.

我们请来了福音合唱团。

We had a gospel choir.

仪式就在我们家后院、泳池边举行。

It was held in the garden of our house around the swimming pool.

我父亲完全呆住了，因为母亲那天只是出门去训练跑步。

And my dad was just absolutely numb with shock because my mother had gone out on a training run.

她原本计划那年晚些时候和我一起去法国参加梅多克马拉松，可有个司机没在停车标志前停下，撞上了前方一辆车，那辆车又撞上了我母亲，她当场就没了。

She was intending to run the medoc marathon with me in France later that year, and a driver didn't stop at a stop street and went into fast moving traffic and bumped a car that was traveling down the road into my mother and killed her instantly.

你可以想象，你妻子出去跑步，结果再也没回家，你开始一个个打电话问医院和警察局，最后才找到她。

So you can imagine your wife just doesn't come home from a run, and you start phoning hospitals and police stations, and then finally you find her.

我觉得我爸爸当时完全崩溃了。

I think my dad was just beside himself.

他们从大学时代就在一起了，就像我和格雷厄姆一样。

They'd been together since their university days as well, like Graham and I had.

那真的帮了我很大的忙。

And that was an incredibly helpful thing.

有一段时间，我的精神状态特别差，因为失去至亲后，你会变得异常敏感。

And I went into a very bad mental state at one time, just because you become very, very hypersensitive when you're bereaved.

有个人对我特别不礼貌，我讲个故事，他居然说：‘别绕弯子，直说重点。’

Someone was very rude to me and sort of said, get to the point, just get to the point, when I was telling a story.

那句话真的让我特别难过。

And that just upset me so much.

现在听起来可能觉得小事一桩，但当时我被伤得特别深。

It sounds like such a trivial thing now, but it upset me incredibly.

我回到家，早上十点就开始喝威士忌。

And I came home, and I started drinking whiskey at 10:00 in the morning.

那时候我脑子里全是阴暗的念头。

And I felt I had incredibly dark thoughts.

我给爸爸打了电话，一开口就哭了出来。

And I phoned my dad, and I just started sobbing.

那时候我和爸爸之间并没有那种可以分享情绪的亲密关系。

And I was not I didn't have that kind of relationship with my dad then of sharing emotional things with him.

但他那天每两个小时就打一次电话，确认我好不好，这对我意义重大。

But he phoned me every two hours that whole day to check I was okay, and that meant the world to me.

所以说，他真的、真的一直在支持我。

So, you know, he really, really did support me.

就像有句话说的，有人能把你从悬崖边拉回来。

And, as I say, know, there's an expression talk me off a ledge.

那天，他真的把我从悬崖边拉了回来。

He actually really did talk me off a ledge that day.

我不记得他具体说了什么，但关键是每两小时就打个电话来关心一下。

I don't know what he said to me, but it was just that checking in every two hours.

因为他以前从来没见过我那样。

Because he'd never seen me like that.

我是说，我根本不是那种容易有自杀念头的人。

I mean, I'm just not the kind of person who's prone to suicidal ideation at all.

这完全不是我的习惯。

It's just not my go to.

所以那件事真的让我非常震惊，没想到一件那么小的事竟然能把我彻底击垮。

So that was very very shocking to me that something quite trivial could literally devastate me.

说实话，失去亲人的那段日子，我有时候感觉就像被剥了皮一样，浑身上下没有一块好肉。

When you bereaved, honestly I felt at times I'd been flayed, like I had no skin left.

我的感官变得异常敏感。

I was so hypersensitive.

比如，如果我对店员微笑，对方却没回以微笑，或者我跟司机打招呼，司机没理我，这些小事就能把我一整天的心情都毁掉。

Like if a shopkeeper didn't smile at me when I smiled at them, or the bus driver didn't greet me when I greeted him, that would just ruin my entire day.

所以经历过丧亲之痛的人一定懂，那种脆弱和极度敏感的感觉。

So people who are bereaved will recognize this, how vulnerable you feel, how oversensitive you are.

正因如此，拥有能倾诉、能慢慢聊开的朋友才特别重要。

And that's why it's so important to foster friendships where you can talk to people and talk things through.

这一点其实是我后来特别后悔没做到的。

And that's actually something I really regret not doing.

我一个人硬扛着所有的悲痛，靠朋友的支持撑过来，后来才发现了‘GriefWorks’这个哀伤支持团体，创办人是一位非常著名的心理治疗师，也是戴安娜王妃的治疗师。

I battled through all my grief myself, on my own with the help of friends, then I discovered a grief support group called GriefWorks by a really eminent psychotherapist who was Princess Diana's friend and psychotherapist.

GriefWorks里有一整个社群，大家都在经历失去的痛苦。

GriefWorks, there was a whole community of people experiencing grief.

等我加入的时候，那个平台已经有App了，但那时我已经好多了，结果反而觉得它让我不断回到悲伤里，而不是帮我继续往前走，因为我走的路，比大多数人都远得多。

By the time I joined there's an app as well by the time I joined I'd already healed a lot, So in the end I found that it was pulling me back into my grief rather than helping me forward with it, because I was much further down the grief journey than most of the people there.

不过那个团体真的特别棒，我很庆幸自己去了，因为能和真正懂你的人待在一起，太珍贵了。

But it was an incredible group and I'm so glad I did attend, because just being around people understand.

说真的，人一旦失去至亲，总会遇到一些特别的事。

I mean there's certain things that happen, when you are bereaved.

你会觉得特别没力气。

Like you lose energy.

哀悼真的特别耗人。

Like it's exhausting, grieving.

你不想去跑步，这会让你很惊讶，因为你明明知道跑步能帮你，可就是提不起劲儿来。

So you don't want to run and that's shocking to you because you know running will help you but you don't you just don't have the energy to run.

还有脑子一片空白。

Or the brain fog.

说实话，这最让人害怕。

I mean that's the most terrifying thing.

比如别人的名字，认识了三十年的人，你脑子里能清楚地想起他们的样子，可就是想不起名字，也记不住任何细节。

It's just people's names, people you've known for thirty years, you can picture them but you just can't remember their names at all or any facts.

我现在还偶尔这样，有些事明明想说，就是怎么也想不起来。

I'm still suffering from it slightly, I just find that there's certain things I just cannot recall, even though I know exactly what I want to say.

话到嘴边说不出来，或者关键的事实怎么也记不起来。

I can't find the words or I can't remember the fact.

所以，能和那些理解你经历、知道这很正常、明白你的记忆终会恢复的人待在一起，真的很有帮助。

So just being around people who know what you're going through and know it's normal and that your memory will come back eventually.

这次是在我妈妈去世后发生的，但因为接连经历了三次失去，所以持续的时间更长了。

Mean, this time it happened when my mom died, but this time because there were three bereavements it's lasted for a longer time.

但只要明白这一点，就会觉得安心很多，也知道悲伤真的会让人精疲力尽。

But just knowing that can be very helpful and just knowing grief is exhausting.

如果你一向忙个不停，像我一样，突然连床都起不来，连泡杯茶都觉得像完成一项大工程，或者洗个澡都觉得自己今天可能撑不住了——这种感觉真的很可怕。但如果你知道这只是过程的一部分，而悲伤根本没有捷径可走，就会好受一些。

Know because if you're a person who's on the go all the time, like I am, to not be able to get out of bed, know to just actually feel like making a cup of tea is a mission or having a shower just feels like oh my god I'm not quite sure that I'm going to manage it today!' It's very frightening but if you know it's just part of the process and there's no shortcuts out of grief.

这正是我必须学会的道理。

Mean that's what I had to learn.

我以前总以为悲伤能像宜家那样，有隐藏的捷径，只要拐个弯就能直接到收银台。

Know I wanted to be like IKEA, you know IKEA's got those secret little shortcuts and you can get to the tills if you just turn left.

但悲伤可不是这样。

It's not like that with grief.

它该持续多久就持续多久，你只能陪着它走，唯一的出路，就是穿过它。

It lasts as long as it lasts and you have to ride it so the only way out is through.

我想关于悲伤，我们可能都经历过一些，或者身边有人正在经历丧亲之痛。

And I guess with grief we've probably all experienced a little bit of it ourselves or people who are grieving.

这种情况大概有两面性。

There's kind of two sides to the situation.

一方面是你自己，可能极度敏感，浑身神经都绷着；另一方面是周围的人，他们可能也小心翼翼，生怕踩到你的雷区。

There's there's you in your grief perhaps incredibly sensitive and with all your nerve endings out, and then there's all the people maybe treading on eggshells around you as well.

所以与此同时，还有你身边的人以及他们的行为方式。

So at the same time, there's the people around you and how they behave.

总有一些人，可能是因为你在经历悲伤，他们反而有点怕你，不知道该怎么跟你相处，又怕做错什么，结果干脆什么都不做，这其实也是一种错误。

And there's always the people who, I don't know, are almost frightened of you because you're grieving and they don't know how to deal with you and they're scared they're going to do it wrong and then by not doing anything at all they're kind of doing it wrong.

我不确定有没有什么标准做法，但对于那些朋友正在经历悲伤的人，你有什么建议吗？

I don't know if there's a standard recipe but do you have advice for people whose friends are grieving?

你提到了“活着的丧失”，也就是在悲伤过程中，你实际上失去了某些人，或者通过这个过程看清了他们的真面目。

You talk about living losses, people who effectively you lose through the grief or you find out their real face through the grieving process.

我不确定是我们失去了他们，还是通过悲伤的过程看清了他们的真实样子，但你确实提到了“活着的丧失”这个概念。

I don't know whether you lose them or we find out who they really are through the grieving process, but you talk about living losses.

你有什么建议吗？或者随便说点什么建议都行。

Do you have any advice, guess, words of advice?

这真的让我特别震惊。

That was something that really shocked me.

简直就像一场大火一样。

It really is like a fire.

有些人冲上来帮忙，有些人却躲得远远的。

Some people rush in to help and some people run away.

我特别惊讶，居然有这么多人选择离开。

I was really shocked how many people ran away.

我觉得周围的人跟我们待在一起时特别不自在。

I felt it was very awkward to be around us.

尽管我和格雷厄姆很努力地想聊点别的，不谈癌症，见朋友时也刻意避开这个话题。

Despite the fact that Graham and I made a real effort to be interesting to talk about topics other than cancer, in fact, we met with people, we did not want to talk about cancer at all.

我们只希望聊点轻松的、跟癌症完全无关的事。

We just wanted light on a conversation about any other topic other than cancer.

我们真的觉得不能给朋友添麻烦，但其实你根本不该有这种想法。

And we really felt that we couldn't be a burden on our friends, which you shouldn't have to feel.

但我心里很清楚这一点。

But I was conscious of that.

所以，我们对一些朋友的行为感到非常惊讶。

So yeah, we were very, very surprised at the behavior of some of our friends.

我还不打算为他们找借口。

And I'm not yet to make excuses for them.

人们就是会以他们的方式行事。

People behave in the way they behave.

但我发誓，我绝不会那样对待别人。

But I vowed I will never behave like that myself.

所以，当你失去亲人时，人们会觉得很不自在，怕说错话。

So yeah, when you're bereaved, people feel very awkward and they are worried about saying the wrong thing.

我只能说，我想不出有什么话是真正不能说的。

And all I can say is, I can't think of anything that could be the wrong thing.

其实，你什么都不用说也没关系。

And actually, you don't have to say anything at all.

只要你愿意听，就像今天这样，跟我说说格雷厄姆的事。

If you just listen, like to me today, say tell us about Graham.

刚才听到两个陌生人提起格雷厄姆的名字，我心里一下子暖了起来，因为能有机会聊聊他，实在太难得了。

Now hearing Graham's name said by two strangers, I mean, heart just warmed when I heard you say that, because it's very rare that I get a chance to speak about Graham.

你对他感兴趣，这真的让我很感动。

And, it's just amazing that you were interested in him.

所以我觉得，你只需要静静听着就够了。

So I just think all you have to do is listen.

真正给我最大安慰的，是一个我并不太熟的人。

And someone who actually provided the greatest comfort to me was someone I didn't know very well.

她是我的一位年长邻居的女儿，她自己也经历过很多与医生打交道的艰难时刻，就像我当年为格雷厄姆奔走一样——我们俩在格雷厄姆四年的抗癌过程中，都得不断跟医疗系统周旋。

She was the daughter of one of my elderly neighbors, and she'd fought many health battles with the health professionals as well, which I had to do on Graham's behalf, or Graham and I both did on his behalf throughout his four years of cancer.

所以她特别懂我的感受：你总是对医生抱有最好的期待，但心里又早有准备，因为他们说的话、做的事，常常会让人措手不及。

So, she really understood where I was coming from, that you hope for the best with doctors and medical professionals, but then expect the worst because you are going to be shocked by some of the things they do and say.

她真的懂我，那天我本来要写《跑者遗嘱》专栏，她抱着一大束向日葵就来了，坐在我身边，一点不怕我的悲伤。

And so, she really understood me and she just came around It was the day I was supposed to write my Runner's Will column, and she just came with this massive armload of sunflowers, and she just sat with me, and she wasn't scared of my grief.

我们坐了三个小时，聊了很多深刻的事，还说到一个有意思的现象：有钱的朋友往往最吝啬，而像她说的——‘穷得连尿壶都没有的人’，反而最慷慨。这句话我一辈子都忘不了。

And we sat there for three hours just talking about all kinds of things, like really meaningful things, and just saying how it's interesting that wealthy friends are the most stingiest and people who don't have a, as she said, I've never forgotten this expression, people who don't have a pot to piss in are the most generous.

她就这么慷慨地把时间给了我。

And here she was just being so generous with her time.

她不怕我哭，其实我也没怎么哭，光顾着笑了。

She wasn't scared of me crying, and actually I didn't spend much time crying at all because I was laughing so much.

这对我来说意义重大。

That meant the world to me.

如果非要说一套待人接物的准则，那就是这样。

If I had to say a blueprint of how to behave, it's that.

给这个人一个机会，让他聊聊他爱的人。

And just give that person a chance to speak about their loved one.

还有就是，送点吃的。

Another thing is just providing food.

我得说，没力气的时候，根本懒得下厨。

I have to tell you that the lack of energy means you just can't be bothered to cook.

我们都懂，要是吃不好，整天靠外卖和垃圾食品撑着，身体只会越来越糟。

And we all know if you don't eat well and you start living on takeaways and junk food, you just feel worse and worse.

越来越差。

And worse.

所以，一大锅一大锅的健康饭菜最管用。

So massive pots of healthy food.

煮一锅鸡汤吧。

Just cook up a chicken soup.

人家管这叫犹太人的青霉素。

They call it Jewish, penicillin.

我妈妈走的时候，邻居们提着巨大的一锅汤和一篮子面包卷上门来。

I remember when my mother died, neighbors came up the road with this enormous cauldron of soup and a basket of bread rolls.

那顿饭让全家人都吃上了，不用我操心，那时候我正忙着组织福音合唱团呢。

And that just fed everyone in the house, you know, for one more meal that I didn't have to think about when I'm trying to do organize the gospel choir.

所以我觉得，当别人经历困难或失去亲人时，送食物是最贴心的礼物之一，尤其是健康的食物。

So, I think food is is one of the greatest gifts you can give, people when they're going through a tough time or when they're bereaved, and especially healthy food.

然后呢，就是你愿意花时间陪他们，耐心倾听，主动提起那个逝去的人的名字。

And then I think it's just your time and just being willing to listen and bring out that person's name.

你可能觉得这么做不合适，但当他们听到那个名字时，可能会哭出来。

Yes, you might make that not make, but that person might cry when they hear that person's name.

但我向你保证，那一定是感动的泪水。

But I promise you, those will be happy tears.

那不是悲伤的泪水。

Those will not be sad tears.

我从那些还记得格雷厄姆的朋友身上，得到了很多安慰，他们总会主动提起他，说：嘿。

And, the joy I get from the remaining friends that I can who bring up Graham and say, hey.

今天我骑车的时候，听到了杀手乐队的歌。

Was on a cycle ride today and I heard the killers play.

那一整首歌的时间里，我满脑子想的都是他。

And I just thought of him the whole that whole song.

我只是想起了格雷厄姆。

I just thought of Graham.

每次有人突然提起他的名字，那种感觉真的直击心灵。

Oh, every time someone brings up his name just out of the blue, you know, it it's just so it's bomb for your soul.

对。

Mhmm.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

你提到杀手乐队，这个我们之前还没聊过。

You mentioned the killers are something that we never touched on.

你的每一章都配了一首歌作为开场，相当于有一整套音乐记忆和情感回响。

Each of your chapters has a song to introduce it as well so you have sort of a sound set or music set of memories and reflections as well.

是的，这其实挺有意思的。

Yeah that's actually quite interesting.

这更多是为了纪念格雷厄姆，而不是我，因为我小时候家里只听古典音乐。

It's more of a homage to Graham than to me because I grew up in a house with classical music only really.

我记得我们大概有五张专辑。

I think we had like five albums.

其中一张是皇后乐队的精选集。

I think one was Queen's Greatest Hits.

还有一张是那种《经典之声》之类的合辑。

One was, you know, hooked on classics, things like that.

但他和我爸爸特别喜欢波尼因。

And but he and my dad loved Bony Inn.

所以我的音乐背景其实非常有限。

So a very limited musical, background.

后来我认识了格雷厄姆，他什么类型的音乐都感兴趣。

And then when I met Graham, he was interested in all kinds of music.

我永远都忘不了。

So I'll never forget.

他给我买了《The Killers》那张专辑，就是《Friends》那张。

He bought The Killers album for Friends.

我就跟格雷厄姆说，送人一份叫‘The Killers’的乐队专辑当圣诞礼物？

And I said, Graham, giving someone a group called The Killers for Christmas.

我觉得这不太合适。

I just don't think that's appropriate.

他却说，丽莎，你要是真听听他们的歌，一定会喜欢的。

And he said, Lisa, I think if you listen to them, you'd really like them.

我说，我可不这么认为。

And I said, I highly doubt that.

然后他就放给我听。

And then he played me their music.

结果我直接被震撼到了。

And it just blew me away.

后来我跑了那么多场马拉松，都是靠他们的音乐撑着的，毕竟我以前特别爱听比利·乔尔。

And I've really I've run so many marathons with their music, because actually, I listened to Billy Joel a lot.

而他呢，根本讨厌比利·乔尔。

So, and he just despised Billy Joel.

他觉得，天哪，他们的音乐太普通了。

He just thought, oh my god, they're so middle of the road music.

是啊。

Yeah.

其实这些歌里很多都是格雷厄姆特别珍视的。

And so this was picking out all this actually a lot of them are songs that were precious to Graham.

但我一直觉得，人跟音乐的关系特别深，音乐就是他们人生的背景音。

But I just thought people really relate to music, know, it is the soundtrack of their life.

我觉得这其实也是我跟读者之间另一种联结的方式。

And I just thought it's actually another of connection with my readers.

而且很多歌本来就是格雷厄姆会挑出来的。

And a lot of them are are songs that Graham would have picked out.

所以我在研究这些歌的时候特别享受。

So I actually had a lot of fun researching that.

花了好几个月，因为我对音乐其实不太懂。

That took me months because I'm not really that knowledgeable about music.

所以我得努力回想格雷厄姆说过的话，然后去找那些歌，毕竟我都记不清它们的名字了。

So I had to try and remember things Graham had said and find the songs, you know, because I couldn't remember what they were.

不知道

Don't if

是不是这么具体。

they're that specific.

你记不得歌手是谁，也想不起歌名，或者其他细节。

You don't remember who the artist is or the title of or the something.

就是能听见它在脑子里响着。

You just like, you can hear it in your head.

是的。

Yeah.

很多人都说，他们特别喜欢这部分。

So and that has a lot of people have said they really enjoyed that.

对我来说，纪念一些事也很有意义，比如我们第一次去看的电影是《看得见风景的房间》，那里的音乐真的特别鼓舞人心。

Just And for me to commemorate, you know, things like the first movie we went to see was A Room With A View, and, that music is just so, so uplifting.

所以我反复听了好多遍，因为那些歌是我老公当初介绍给我、对我们俩意义重大的曲子。

So I listened to that, you know, quite a lot, over and over again, because I rediscovered songs that meant a lot to us as a couple that he'd introduced me to.

说实话，几乎每首歌我以前都没听过。

I mean, almost all of them were music I'd never heard before.

这本书里还夹着不少乌鸦的剪影，至少我们的版本是这样的。

The the book also is is scattered with, little silhouettes of crows, at least our copies are.

我们手头有几本提前发布的版本，后来书里也提到，乌鸦是格雷厄姆的灵兽。

We've we've got some pre released copies, and and we we hear in the book eventually that Crow is Graham's spirit animal.

你们俩其实都有自己的灵兽。

Well, you both have spirit animals.

你之前提到过那顶火烈鸟帽子，看来你的灵兽就是火烈鸟了。

Actually, you you touched on your flamingo hat, and it seems your spirit animal is a flamingo.

你们的灵兽差别挺大的，但挺有意思的。

Very different sets of spirit animals, but interesting.

这些灵兽的由来到底是怎么一回事？

How where where does that all come from?