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好的，鲁珀特。
Okay, Rupert.
欢迎来到节目。
Welcome to the show.
为了开始，对于任何之前从未接触过这个概念的人，你能先给我们一个关于不二的定义吗？
To get started, for anybody that has never come across this before, could you maybe start with giving us your sort of definition of what nonduality is?
你能告诉我们这句话的意义吗：‘如果我说话，我在说谎；如果我沉默，我就是一张牌’？
And could you maybe tell us about the significance of the phrase, if I speak, I tell a lie, but if I remain silent, I am a card?
好的，首先，尼尔，感谢你邀请我。
Okay, well, first of all, Niall, and thank you for inviting me.
再次与你交谈真是一种荣幸。
It's a pleasure to speak with you again.
我能用一两句话概括不二吗？
Can I sum up non duality in one or two sentences?
是的，不二实际上是所有伟大宗教和灵性传统所基于的领悟。
Yes, non duality is really the understanding that underlies all the great religious and spiritual traditions.
如果我们提炼这种理解的精髓，并用当代的语言表达出来，它听起来会像这样。
And if we were distill the essence of that understanding and express it in contemporary terms, it would sound something like this.
平静与幸福是我们存在的本质，我们与所有人和一切共享这种存在。
Peace and happiness are the nature of our being, and we share our being with everyone and everything.
现在，这句话的第一部分——平静与幸福是我们存在的本质——指的是我们的内在体验，即我们的思想和感受。
Now the first part of this phrase, peace and happiness are the nature of our being, refers to our inner experience, our thoughts and feelings.
而这个定义的第二部分——我们与所有人和一切共享我们的存在——指的是我们的外在体验，也就是我们与他人、动物和事物的关系。
And the second part of this definition, we share our being with everyone and everything, refers to our exterior experience, that is our relationship with people, with animals and things.
为了重述一下，以回答你的第二个问题：‘如果我开口，意味着什么？’
To rephrase, in order to answer your second question, what does it mean if I speak?
这是出自一位禅宗大师的名言。
And this is a quote from a Zen master.
如果我开口，我在说谎；但如果我保持沉默，我就是一个懦夫。
If I speak, I tell a lie, but if I remain silent, I'm a coward.
因此，为了回答这个问题，让我换一种方式重新表述非二元的理解。
So let me now, in order to answer this question, let me rephrase the non dual understanding in a different way.
非二元的理解认为，现实是一个单一、无限且不可分割的整体，所有人和万物都从这一整体或现实中借来了其看似独立存在的表象。
The nondual understanding suggests that reality is a single, infinite and indivisible whole, and that everyone and everything borrows its apparently discrete and independent existence from that one whole or reality.
然而，这一现实——那个无限、不可分割的整体——无法用我们语言中的术语来定义，因为我们的语言是为描述现实的各个独立部分而演化出来的，比如人、树、原子、行星、思想、感受等等。
Now that one reality, the one infinite, indivisible whole cannot be defined in the terms in our language, because our language has evolved to describe all the individual parts of reality people, trees, atoms, planets, thoughts, feelings, and so on.
因此，我们的语言是为描述整体的各个部分而演化出来的。
So our language has evolved to describe the parts of the whole.
整体本身无法用这些部分的术语来描述。
The whole itself cannot be described in terms of those parts.
所以，我们实际上并没有一种语言能够描述或定义现实。
So really, don't have a language for describing or defining reality.
事实上，这正是我们拥有诗歌和艺术的原因——它们试图在我们的体验中唤起对现实的感受，却并不试图去定义它。
In fact, this is why we have poetry and art that they attempt to evoke reality in our experience, but they don't attempt to define it.
因此，禅师说‘如果我说话，我就在说谎’，这句话是对这样一个事实的承认：我们对现实所说的任何话，最终都是不真实的。
So the reason the Zen master said, if I speak, I tell an I, this was said in acknowledgment of the fact that anything we say about reality is ultimately untrue.
那么，我们或许可以简单地选择保持沉默。
Well, we could then just simply agree to remain silent.
对于非二元的理解来说，最准确的表达方式就是保持沉默。
That would be the most accurate way of speaking of the nondual understanding, be to remain silent.
但仅仅在人们受苦时保持沉默，并不会产生多大效果。
But that would not be very effective just to remain silent in the face of people's suffering.
因此，禅师首先承认：‘我说话，就是在说谎。’
So that's why the Zen master, first of all, acknowledged if I speak, I tell a lie.
我所说的关于现实的一切，最终都不是真的。
Nothing I say about reality is ultimately true.
然而，当他补充说‘如果我沉默，我就是懦夫’时，他暗示：拥有这种理解的人，有一种充满爱的责任与义务去表达它，因为它是内在平静与幸福的源泉，也是外在之爱的源头。
However, he suggested by saying if I speak, I am a coward, he suggested that one that that has this understanding, has a kind of loving obligation and loving duty to speak of it because it is the source of peace and happiness on the inside and the source of love on the outside.
我们有爱的责任去表达它。
We have a loving obligation to speak of it.
这就是为什么他说：‘如果我说话，我在说谎；但如果我沉默，我就是懦夫。’
That's why he said, if I speak, I tell a lie, but if I remain silent, I am a coward.
如果我沉默，我就是在逃避这种理解赋予我的爱的责任。
If I remain silent, I'm not I'm shirking my my loving the loving duty that this understanding confers upon me.
说得非常好，你刚才说话时我突然意识到，这种理解似乎正是他们所谈论的内容。
That's very well said, and it just struck me there as you were speaking that this understanding seems to be what they were talking about.
我不太确定。
I'm not sure.
我对这个了解不多，但在《福音书》中，每当他们提到好消息时，这似乎就是那个好消息。
I don't know that much, but in the gospels, whenever they talk about the good news, this seems to be the good news.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
这正是《福音书》中所提到的好消息。
Is the good news that they talk about in the Gospels.
它在所有不同的传统中都有体现。
It's expressed in all the different traditions.
色即是空，空即是色。
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
个体自我与宇宙自我是一体的。
The individual self and the universal self are one.
这属于吠檀多传统。
That's in the Vedantic tradition.
它在各种宗教、灵性和哲学传统中以不同方式表达出来。
It's expressed in various different ways in the religious and spiritual and philosophical traditions.
但没错，这就是好消息。
But yes, this is the good news.
好消息就是，天国——那个每个人最渴望的和平与幸福的境界——就在每个人内心。
The good news that the kingdom of heaven, the realm of peace and happiness for which everyone longs above all else, is inside one.
它就是人存在的本质。
It is the very nature of one's being.
是的，这就是好消息。
Yes, it's the good news.
在你的书《你所寻求的幸福就是你自己》中，你使用了一个名叫约翰·史密斯的人扮演李尔王的隐喻。
Now in your book, You're the Happiness That You Seek, you give the metaphor of a man called John Smith who plays King Lear.
在这个隐喻中，他忘记了。
And in the metaphor, he forgets.
我让你来描述，但如果你能解释一下这个隐喻对于我们理解真实自我的意义，那就更好了。
I'll let you describe it, but if you can maybe explain the significance of that that metaphor for understanding of who we really are.
是的，这是一个像你所知道的，我经常使用的隐喻。
Yes, it's a metaphor that, as you know, I use a lot.
在这个比喻中，约翰·史密斯代表我们的本质自我，即在我们的思想、情感、行为、关系等赋予我们身份之前，我们真正是谁。
In the analogy, John Smith represents our essential self, who we really are before who we are is qualified by our thoughts, our feelings, our actions, our relationships.
约翰·史密斯代表我们的本质自我。
John Smith represents our essential self.
李尔王代表的是人格、我们所扮演的角色，是我们自身与思想、情感、记忆、历史、关系等的混合体，等等。
King Lear represents the persona, the character that we play, the mixture of who we are with our thoughts, our feelings, our memory, our history, our relationships, so on.
因此在这个比喻中，约翰·史密斯活着。
So in the analogy, John Smith lives.
他独自一人住在家里。
He lives alone at home.
他过着平静而幸福的生活。
He lives a peaceful and happy life.
他感到满足且充实。
He's he's content and fulfilled.
他去剧院扮演李尔王这个角色，这不仅涉及穿上戏服，还包括采纳一系列思想和情感，并参与一系列活动和人际关系。
He goes to his theater and he puts on the character of King Lear, which which involves not only putting on a costume, but also adopting a series of thoughts and feelings and engaging in a series of activities and relationships.
他已婚。
He's married.
他有三个女儿。
He has three daughters.
他是英格兰的国王，并且正在与法国交战。
He's the king of the of England, and he's at war with the French.
简而言之，他痛苦不堪。
In short, he's miserable.
所以，他真实的身份——约翰·史密斯——当然并不痛苦。
So now who he really is, John Smith, is of course not miserable.
他在这种类比的局限性之中。
He's in the context of in the limitations of the analogy.
他内心平静。
He's he's at peace.
他感到满足。
He's fulfilled.
他很快乐。
He's happy.
但当约翰·史密斯融入了角色李尔王的思想、情感、行为和关系时。
But when John Smith becomes mixed with the thoughts, feelings, actions and relationships of the character King Lear.
他似乎变成了李尔王，因此承受着痛苦。
He seems to become King Lear, and as such, he suffers.
然而，他并没有真正变成李尔王。
Now, he doesn't really become King Lear.
他始终都是约翰·史密斯。
He's still John Smith all the way through.
并没有一个是叫约翰·史密斯的人，另一个是叫李尔王的人。
There isn't one person called John Smith and another person called King Lear.
只有约翰·史密斯。
There's just John Smith.
但国王李尔，抱歉，约翰·史密斯已经忘记了。
But King Lear, sorry, John Smith has forgotten.
他被忽视了。
He's overlooked.
他忽略了自己是约翰·史密斯这一事实，因为他让自己与李尔王的思想、情感、行为和关系纠缠在一起。
He ignores the fact that he is John Smith because he's allowed himself to become tangled and tangled up with identified with King Lear's thoughts, feelings, actions and relationships.
因此，他似乎不再是他自己——约翰·史密斯。
And he seems as a result to cease being John Smith.
他似乎变成了李尔王。
And he seems to become King Lear.
就在那一刻，他放弃了或遗忘了自己本有的平静，痛苦便开始了。
And at that moment, he gives up or forgets his innate peace and his suffering begins.
这与我想表达的非常相似，也是非二元理解普遍认为的：我们的本质天性本自安宁。
And this is a very close analogy to what I would suggest, and it's what the nondual understanding in general suggests that our essential nature is inherently peaceful.
我们本质上是什么，即在我们的思想、情感、行为和关系之前的本体，是平静的。
What we essentially are, our being prior to our thoughts, feelings, actions and relationships is peaceful.
但我们允许自己的本体与经验的内容纠缠并认同在一起。
But we have allowed our being to become entangled in and identified with the content of experience.
因此，我们忽视了自身的本然存在，也忽视了与之相伴的内在平静、宁静的喜悦，于是痛苦便开始了。
And as a result of that, we overlook our innate being and with it, we overlook our innate peace and quiet joy and our suffering begins.
那么，李尔王是如何应对他的痛苦的呢？
Now, what does King Lear do about his suffering?
他认为自己的痛苦源于与三个女儿糟糕的关系，或王国中的不满，或与法国的战争。
Well, he thinks that his suffering is caused by his terrible relationship with his three daughters or the discontent in his kingdom or the war with the French.
于是他一生都在努力改善与女儿们的关系，以及英格兰王国的状况。
So he spends his entire life trying to improve his relationship with his daughters and the state of affairs in the Kingdom Of England.
诸如此类。
And so on.
但当然，这些方法都无效，因为它们并非他痛苦的真正根源。
But of course, none of these things work because they're not the real cause of his suffering.
他痛苦的真正原因是，他已经忘记了自己真正的身份。
The real cause of his suffering is that he's forgotten who he really is.
想象一下，戏剧的结尾。
Now imagine the end the play ends.
当国王李尔退到后台时，他本该像往常一样脱下戏服，重新变回约翰·史密斯。
King Lear goes backstage when he would normally just take off his costume again and revert to being John Smith.
但这一次，约翰·史密斯完全沉浸在角色中，以至于他退到后台后，忘记了重新变回约翰·史密斯。
But in this occasion, John Smith has lost himself so fully in the part he plays that he goes backstage and he forgets to revert to being John Smith.
即使戏剧已经结束，他依然保持着李尔王的身份。
He remains King Lear even after the play has ended.
于是，一位在观众席的朋友走进来祝贺他精彩的演出，却发现他十分痛苦。
So his friend, who is in the audience comes in to congratulate him on his great performance, but finds him miserable.
他问：‘怎么了？’
And he says, Well, what's the matter?
你为什么？
Why are you?
你为什么这么痛苦？
Why are you miserable?
国王李尔说：因为我的女儿们、与法国的战争、王国的动荡。他的朋友说：别傻了。
King Lear said, Because my daughters, the war with the French, the troubles in my kingdom and his friends says, Don't be silly.
你痛苦并不是因为这些原因。
You're not miserable because of any of those reasons.
你痛苦是因为你忘记了自己真正是谁。
You're miserable because you've forgotten who you really are.
你真正是谁？
Who are you really?
于是国王李尔开始讲述他的想法和感受，他的朋友说：不，那些并不是你真正的样子。
And then King Lear, of course, starts relating his thoughts and his feelings, his friend says, No, no, those aren't really who you are.
那些只是你所采纳的想法和情绪。
Those are just thoughts and feelings that you've adopted.
国王李尔开始谈论他的行为、人际关系，他的朋友说：别傻了。
King Lear starts talking about his actions, his relationships, his friends said, Don't be silly.
这些并不是你真正的样子。
These are not really who you are.
深入探索你自己。
Go more deeply into yourself.
你真正是谁？
Who are you really?
于是，李尔王追溯他的思想、情感、行为和关系，最终有了这样的领悟：啊，我是约翰·史密斯。
So King Lear traces his way back through his thoughts, through his feelings, through his activities and relationships, and eventually there is this recognition, ah, I'm John Smith.
就在那一刻，他的幸福恢复了。
And at that moment, his happiness is restored.
这种追溯到他本质存在的过程，正是西方传统中所称的祈祷，以及东方传统中所称的冥想。
And this this tracing his way back to his essential being is that is really what is called what's called prayer in the Western tradition and meditation in the Eastern tradition.
我们深入自己的内在，摒弃所有非本质的经验元素——思想、情感、记忆、行为、关系，直到抵达我们本质的、不可再简化的自我或纯粹的存在。所谓纯粹的存在，是指尚未被经验内容所染色或限定的存在；而我们存在的本质就是平静。
We go deeply into our self, discarding all the elements of our experience that are not essential to us, our thoughts, feelings, memories, actions, relationships, and until we come to our essential, irreducible self or being unqualified being by which I mean by which I mean our being before it is colored or qualified by the content of experience and the nature of our being is peace.
这就像图像背后的屏幕。
It's like it's like the screen behind the image.
它是透明的。
It's transparent.
它是寂静的。
It's silent.
它是静止的。
It's still.
它是平和的。
It's at peace.
我觉得这是一个非常精妙的隐喻。
I think it's such a brilliant metaphor.
我特别喜欢书中你提到的，国王李尔有一种非常模糊的感觉，觉得自己就是约翰·史密斯，或者约翰·史密斯就是他。
I particularly liked in the book whenever you talked about, you know, King Lear has the the the sense has a very vague sense that he is John Smith or that the John Smith.
没错。
Absolutely.
对。
Yes.
但它是如此微小，以至于他把这种感觉投射到了自己之外。
But it but it's so it's so dis or so small that he projects it outside of himself.
而宇宙几乎，你知道的。
And the universe almost, you know.
但你现在说对了。
But you're right now.
这是《李尔王》中对他内在幸福的深层记忆吗？
Is this deep memory in King Lear of his innate happiness.
正是这种记忆让他渴望幸福。
And that's what causes him to long for happiness.
如果他从未体验过幸福，他就不会如此渴望。
If he didn't know the experience of happiness, he wouldn't long for it.
所以他以为，幸福是他童年时曾经经历过的某种东西。
So he thinks that the happiness was something he experienced in his past when he was a child.
不，他对幸福的直觉并非来自过去。
No, the happiness, his intuition of happiness doesn't come from the past.
它来自他内心深处。
Comes from deep within him.
他在某个地方知道有一种叫做幸福的东西，但他还不知道它就在自己内心，因此他在自己的行为和关系中向外寻找它。
He knows somewhere that there is this thing called happiness, but he doesn't yet know that it lies within him, Therefore he searches for it outside of himself in his actions, relationships.
对我们来说也是如此。
And it's exactly the same with us.
我们每个人都渴望和平与幸福，胜过一切。
Each of us longs for peace and happiness above all us.
我们拥有对幸福的记忆。
We have this memory of happiness.
我们都体验过幸福。
We all know the experience of happiness.
现在我们可能会将这种记忆投射到生命早期的某个阶段。
Now we may project that into some early part of our life.
我们以为过去曾经有过一段幸福的时光，但其实，我们对幸福的直觉并非来自过去，而是源于我们内心此刻依然可触及的幸福记忆。
We think there was a time in the past when I was happy, but no, our intuition of happiness becomes from comes from a memory that somewhere in us now happiness is available.
但我们并不知道这一点。
But but we don't know that.
所以我们到自身之外去寻找它。
And so we seek it outside of ourselves.
我们通过物质、 substances、活动、关系等来寻找它。
We seek it in objects, substances, activities, relationships and so on.
有些人一生都在通过外在体验寻求幸福。
And some people go through their entire lives seeking happiness in objective experience.
有些人会在生命中的某个阶段开始怀疑，外在体验是否真的能成为幸福的源泉。
Some people notice at some stage in their life, they begin to doubt whether objective experience can ever really be a source of happiness.
对许多人来说，这就是灵性旅程的起点。
And this is where for many people, the spiritual journey begins.
我们意识到，世界上所提供的所有常规事物——物质、活动、关系，我们或许还没有完全理解，但有一种直觉告诉我们：不，我内心深处的渴望不可能在这条路上找到。
We realize none of the none of the conventional objects that are on offer in the world, the substances, activities, relationships, we have an intuition, if not yet a full understanding, but an intuition that no, I deeply long for can never be found in this direction.
还有一条向内的道路。
There's another direction, inward facing path.
而这种觉察或直觉，正是许多人开启灵性修习的起点。
And and that this recognition or this intuition is what initiates a a spiritual practice for many people.
完全正确。
100%.
在我们开始录音前，我们刚聊到，我是在你参加周末大学讲座后不久才接触到这个想法的，然后我花了一些时间认真思考，并为此写了一些东西，等等。
So we were talking before just before we started recording about, you know, I discovered this this idea not long after you spoke at the Weekend or, yeah, not long after you spoke at the Weekend University, and I took some time to really think about it and did some writing on it, whatever.
每当这一点终于让我恍然大悟时，它都极大地提升了我的生活质量，也几乎改变了我感受这个世界的方式。
And whenever the penny dropped a little bit, it had a huge impact on my quality of life and, I suppose, just how I felt in the world almost.
你懂的？
You know?
所以，我想问你一个问题，鲁珀特：我知道对你来说，顿悟可能已经是很久以前的事了，但自从你真正理解了这一点并开始依此生活后，你的生活质量发生了怎样的变化？
So the question I'm curious to ask you, Rupert, is I know it's probably been a long time since the penny did drop for you, but what's the difference been in your own quality of life since you really understood this and started living in accordance with this?
嗯，尼尔，其实有两方面，它们都与我最初试图阐释非二元理解时提到的内容相关：一方面关乎我们的内在生活——我们渴望内心平和与幸福；另一方面关乎我们的外在生活——我们渴望拥有充满爱的关系，摆脱冲突。
Well, are two things really, Niall, and they relate back to my very first attempt to suggest what the nondual understanding is about, one relating to our inner life, our desire to be at peace and happy on the inside, and one relating to our outer life, our desire to be to have loving relationships, to be free of conflict.
我逐渐明白，我最渴望的平和、最想要的幸福，正是我本性的本质。
It became clear to me that the peace that I seek above all else, happiness that I want to above all else is is the nature of my being.
幸福永远无法通过客观经验、物质、活动或关系找到。
It can never be found through objective experience, substances, activities, relationships.
此时我需要强调一下，我并不是在暗示人们不应该追求物质、物质、活动或关系等等。
Now, I should emphasize at this point, I don't mean to imply that one should not seek objects, substances, activities, relationships, so on.
追求这些是完全正当且必要的。
It's perfectly legitimate and necessary to do so.
我所要表达的只是，人们不应当为了追求幸福而去这么做。
All I'm suggesting is that one should not do so for the purpose of seeking happiness.
任何物体、关系等等都不可能成为幸福的源泉。
An object relationship and so on can never be the source of happiness.
这一点对我来说变得清晰了。
This became clear to me.
所以早在我的人生早期，二十岁出头的时候，我就意识到，这并没有让我的世界寻幸福之旅戛然而止。
And so it it can take me very early on, quite early on in my life, my early 20s, and there was a it didn't bring my search for happiness in the world to an abrupt end.
我继续了一段时间，追求幸福的惯性在世界上持续了一阵子，但我知道，幸福并不在那里。
I continued for some time, the momentum, the habit of seeking happiness in the world continued for some time, but I knew it didn't belong there.
我知道，如果我想找到持久的平静与幸福，就必须向内探寻，从自己内心找到它。
I knew that if I wanted to find lasting peace and happiness, I had to go within and find it within myself.
因此，这改变了我内在体验的方式。
So that was the change in relation to my internal experience.
就我的外在体验而言，特别是与他人的关系，我最初是直觉地意识到，后来越来越清晰地认识到，我与所有人共享着我的存在。
In relation to my external experience, particularly in relationship to people, I realized at first intuitive, but then it became clearer and clearer to me that I share my being with everyone.
我并不与所有人共享我的思想、感受、感觉、知觉等，但我确实与所有人共享我的存在。
I don't share my thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions and so on with everyone, but I do share my being with everyone.
我想指出，这种对我们共同存在的觉察，正是我们称之为爱的体验。
And I would suggest this this recognition of our shared being is the experience we call love.
我逐渐明白，这是一个不断深化、永无止境的过程。
And it became clear to me, and this is something that just goes on and on and on deepening.
我明白，我喜欢或不喜欢某人并不重要。
It became clear to me that whether I like somebody or not is not important.
我喜欢或不喜欢某人，取决于我的思想、感受、行为、习性等是否与他们的相契合或和谐。
When I like someone or not is to do with the extent to which my thoughts, feelings, actions, conditioning and so on coincides or harmonizes with theirs.
但无论我有多喜欢某人，我们都共享着我们的存在。
But irrespective of the extent to which I like someone, we share our being.
换句话说，在我思想和情感背后的存在，与他人思想和情感背后的存在，是同一个存在。
In other words, behind the being that lies behind my thoughts and feelings and the being that lies behind everybody else's thoughts and feelings is the same being.
但这并不意味着我们在思想和情感层面总会意见一致、彼此微笑，完全不是这样，仍然可能存在分歧。
Now, that doesn't mean to say that at the level of our thoughts and feelings, we'll always agree with one another and smile sweetly with one another, not at all, but there may still be disagreements.
但这些分歧并不会阻止我们不仅理解，而且感受到我们与每个人共享着存在。
But these disagreements, they don't prevent us from not just understanding but feeling that we share our being with everyone.
这种觉察对我的人际关系——家人、朋友、陌生人——产生了深远的影响。
Recognition has had a profound effect on my relationships, family, friends, strangers.
这实际上是我与每个人最主要的关系，即我爱他们。
It's really it's my primary relationship with everyone, the fact that I love them.
但我说的爱，并不是指一种温暖、舒适的感觉。
But by love, I'm not talking about a warm, fuzzy feeling.
我指的是这种深切的体悟：无论他们如何思考、感受，无论他们如何行动和相处，在最深层面上，我和他们是一体的。
I'm talking about this this felt understanding that irrespective of how they think and feel, irrespective of how they act and relate at the deepest level, I am one with them.
这是我与每个人最主要的关系。
And that's my primary, primary relationship with everyone.
因此，它彻底改变了我与他人的关系。
And so it's transformed my my relationships with people.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
回到你刚才说的关于追寻的事，这种观点认为你无法通过追寻找到它，但并非如此。我特别喜欢书中的一句话，我直接念出来：我们所渴望的东西，无法通过追寻找到，但只有追寻者才能找到它。
Just to go back to what you were saying about seeking, this idea that you can't find it by seeking, but it's not part The quote I really love from the book was, I'll just read it out here, That for which we long can't be found by seeking, but only seekers find it.
这是巴耶兹id·巴斯米说的。
That's by Bayezid Bastami.
我们所追寻的东西，无法通过追寻找到。
That for which we seek cannot be found by seeking.
像许多这类神秘的陈述一样，它们看似相互矛盾。
And like a lot of these enigmatic statements, they can seem to contradict each other.
但当然，如果理解了我们最渴望的东西无法通过追寻获得，它们就并不矛盾。
But of course, they don't really, if one understands that for which we long above all else cannot be found by seeking.
但只有那些寻求的人才能找到它。
And yet only those who seek find it.
让我们把这个道理应用到约翰·史密斯和国王李尔王的类比中：国王无法通过走遍世界寻找约翰·史密斯来找到他，因为他自己就是约翰·史密斯。
Let's translate that into our analogy of John Smith and King King Lear cannot find John Smith by going out into the world in search of him, because he is already John Smith.
约翰·史密斯并不是他生命中可以找到的某种东西。
John Smith is not something he can find in his life.
他就是约翰·史密斯。
He is John Smith.
他只需要意识到，他从未失去过约翰·史密斯。
He simply need to recognize that he never lost John Smith.
他从未停止过成为约翰·史密斯。
He never ceased being John Smith.
他只是忽略了它，遗忘了它。
He just overlooked it and forgot it.
因此，李尔王无法通过寻找来找到约翰·史密斯。
So King Lear cannot find John Smith by searching for him.
但如果他不去寻找约翰·史密斯，他就只能继续做李尔王，结果也将一直痛苦下去。
And yet if he doesn't seek for John Smith, he'll remain as King Lear, and as a result, he'll remain miserable.
因此，李尔王必须走出世界去寻找李尔王，直到他因无法在世界上找到约翰·史密斯而极度沮丧，最终因绝望、遇见朋友、读一本书或看一个YouTube视频，而停下他在外界寻找约翰·史密斯的行动。
So King Lear has to go out into the world seeking King Lear until he becomes so frustrated in his inability to find John Smith out in the world that either through desperation, either through meeting a friend, reading a book, watching a YouTube clip, brings his halt, brings his search for John Smith in the world to a halt.
然后他开始转向内在，进行内在的探索，寻找自己内心的约翰·史密斯。
And he starts this inward facing, this inward search, this search within himself for John Smith.
但他并不会找到约翰·史密斯，因为他本来就是约翰·史密斯。
And then he doesn't find John Smith because he always is John Smith.
约翰·史密斯认识到了自己本质上是谁。
John Smith recognizes who he essentially is.
所以，情况完全一样。
So exactly the same.
我们这些看似暂时且有限的自我，无法去寻找自己，因为我们本来就是自己。
We, the apparently temporary finite self that we seem to be cannot search for ourselves because we already are ourself.
我们可以忽视这一点，也可以记起它；我们可以忘记它，也可以认识到它。
We can overlook that and we can remember that, we can forget that and we can recognize that.
但为了做到这一点，我们大多数人，如果不是所有人，都必须走进世界，去追寻各种事物和关系，直到这些外在的东西一次次让我们失望，让我们开始隐约意识到：我所渴望的平静，并不存于那里。
But in order to do so, most of us, if not all, have to go out into the world in search of objects and relationships and so on, until these fail us sufficiently often for us to begin to at least intuit may be the peace for which I long doesn't live there.
然后我们开始这场向内的探索，最终达成这种觉知。
And then we begin this inward search which culminates in this recognition.
啊，我就是纯粹存在的事实，其本质是平静与幸福。
Oh, I am the fact of simply being whose nature is peace and happiness.
你刚才解释的时候，我突然想到，你认为这正是浪子回头这个隐喻所要表达的吗？
It struck me there just as you were explaining that that do you think this is what the the metaphor of the prodigal son is about?
你认为他们谈论的就是这个吗？
Do you think that's what they're talking about?
完全正确。
Absolutely.
说得太准了。
Spot on.
这正是那个浪子回头的故事。
It's it's very specifically the the prodigal son.
他离开了王国。
He he leaves the kingdom.
他离开了他的父亲。
He leaves his father.
他离开了王国。
He leaves the kingdom.
王国象征着丰盛、平静、喜悦、满足以及与父亲之间充满爱的关系。
The kingdom represents the kingdom of abundance, of peace, of joy, of fulfillment, of loving relationships with his father.
他放弃了继承权。
He leaves his birthright.
他生来就拥有它。
He was born with it.
他并不是靠努力获得的。
He didn't earn it.
这是他的本性。
It's his nature.
他离开了，走进了这个世界。
He left and he went out into the world.
以协议符号为例，他必须探索世界上所有提供的东西。
And in the example of the Protocol sign, he had to explore everything that was on offer in the world.
他不只是经历了几次失败的感情或几次不顺的爱情。
He didn't just have a few failed relationships or a few bouts of ill love.
他必须走得那么远，以至于最后不得不吃猪吃的食物。
He had to go so far that he ended up eating the food that the pigs were eating.
他必须尝试一切。
He had to try everything.
他一贫如洗。
He was destitute.
他濒临绝望。
He was on the brink of despair.
只有在那时，他才转身回头。
And only then did he turn around this turning around.
这是一种转变，当我们停止将注意力指向经验的客观内容、物体的实质，转而向内追溯，深入内心，直到认识到我们本质自我或本质存在的内在部分时，这就是转变。
It's the conversion, it's the turning around when we cease directing our attention towards the objective content of experience, object substance, is turning around and that this retracing our steps going deeply within until we recognize the innate piece of our essential self or our essential being.
是的，完全正确，这正是浪子回头故事所描绘的。
Yes, absolutely, that this is exactly what is portrayed in in the prodigal son.
现在，大多数人不需要像浪子那样走那么远。
Now, most people don't need to go as far as the prodigal son went.
大多数人不必走到绝望的边缘，但有些人确实会。
Most people don't have to go to the brink of despair, but some do.
对一些人来说，这种绝望是因为他们已经无路可走。
And for some people, this despair, abs there's just nowhere else they can go.
这可能会引发一种自发的转变，有时也正是在那时，人们意识到自己需要寻求帮助。
And this can lead to a spontaneous turning around, or sometimes that's the time when people realize they need to go for help.
但没错，你完全正确。
But yes, you're absolutely right.
这正是Protocol Sun故事所展现的。
This is exactly what the story of the Protocol Sun portrays.
那么，你对意识的理解是什么，鲁珀特？
So what is your understanding of consciousness, Rupert?
你如何帮助人们理解意识究竟是什么？
How do you help people understand what consciousness actually is?
现在，意识首先我要把‘意识’和‘觉知’这两个词当作同义词使用。
Consciousness now can consciousness is about first of I use the words consciousness and awareness synonymously.
严格来说，意识无法被定义，原因和我之前提到的一样：终极实相无法被定义，但它可以在我们的体验中被唤起。
Strictly speaking, consciousness cannot be defined for the same reason that I suggested earlier, that the ultimate reality cannot be defined, but it can be evoked in our experience.
所以，这不是对意识的定义，而是一种尝试，让人意识到自己意识的存在，意识到觉知的事实。
So I would this is not a definition of consciousness, but it is an attempt to make people aware of the fact of their own consciousness, the fact of being aware.
因此，我会说，意识就是这个。
So I would say that consciousness is this.
它是所有体验得以被认知的那个东西。
It is that with which all experience is known.
它是所有体验生起的内在空间，最终，它是一切万物所由之而出的本源。
It is that within which all experience arises, and ultimately it is that out of which everything is made.
好的。
Okay.
说得非常好，真正帮助我理解这一点的隐喻是电影院银幕的比喻。
That's very well said, and the metaphor that really helped me to grasp this was the metaphor of the cinema screen.
你能稍微详细解释一下这个比喻吗？
Could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit?
是的。
Yes.
电影院的银幕上正在播放电影。
The cinema screen with the movie playing on it.
好的。
Okay.
但这是一块神奇的银幕。
But it's a magical cinema screen.
在这个类比中，它并不是一个有人坐在电影院里观看的银幕。
It's not a in this analogy, It's not a cinema screen that is being watched by somebody sitting in the cinema.
想象一个有觉知的屏幕。
Imagine an aware screen.
这是一个能够观看其上播放的电影的屏幕。
That is a screen that has the ability to watch the movie that is playing on it.
在这个比喻中，电影就是我们的体验、思想、图像、记忆、感受、身体感觉、对世界的感知、活动、关系，以及你我正在进行的对话等等。
Now, the movie in this analogy is our experience, thoughts, images, memories, feelings, sensations of the body, perceptions of the world, activities, relationships, the conversation you and I are having, etc.
这就是我所说的体验的内容、体验的客观内容、体验的戏剧、体验的电影。
That's what I call the content of experience, the objective content of experience, the drama of experience, the movie of experience.
而屏幕则是所有这些内容播放的媒介。
And the screen is the medium on which all of that plays.
思想、图像、感受、感觉等不断生起、存在并消逝，但任何生起或出现的事物，都必须在某种东西上或某种东西中出现。
Thoughts, images, feelings, sensations and so on, these are continually arising, existing and vanishing, but anything that arises or appears must appear or arise on something or in something.
没有屏幕就没有电影，没有情绪就没有波浪，没有天空就没有云朵。
You can't have a movie without a screen or a wave without emotion or a cloud without a sky.
那么，我们的思想、感受、感觉和感知，究竟是在什么之中或之上生起的呢？
So what is it that our thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions are arising in or on?
那就是意识。
That is consciousness.
意识是所有体验生起的媒介，或是体验生起的空间。
Consciousness is the the screen upon which or the space within which all experience arises.
同时，它也是所有体验得以被认知的主体。
And it is at the same time that with which all experience is known.
最终，所有体验都是由它构成的，正如电影中的一切都是由屏幕构成的一样。
Ultimately, it is that out of which all experience is made, just as everything that takes place in the movie is made of a screen.
我认为这个比喻的美妙之处在于，电影院的屏幕上可以播放许多不同的电影，但屏幕本身却始终不变。
And I think the beautiful part about that metaphor is that, you know, there are many different movies that are played on the cinema screen, but the screen itself remains unchanging.
假设，尼尔，有一天你深陷抑郁，我问你：是什么在觉知你的抑郁？
Let's say, Niall, one day you were deeply depressed and I were to ask you the question, what is it that is aware of your depression?
不要去关注你的抑郁，但如果我引导你注意那个觉知你抑郁的东西，总有什么在觉知抑郁的感觉。
Don't go towards your depression, but if I was to draw your attention to that which is aware of your depression, something is aware of the feeling of depression.
第二天，你深深地坠入了爱河。
Now, the next day you fall deeply in love.
你现在不再抑郁了。
You're now no longer depressed.
你坠入爱河，但你觉察到自己正在恋爱。
You're in love, but you are aware of being in love.
那么，你今天觉察到抑郁的觉知，和明天觉察到恋爱的觉知，是同一个觉知吗？
Well, is the awareness with which you are one day aware of your depression and the awareness with which you are the next day aware of being in love?
是同一个觉知，还是不同的觉知？
Is it the same awareness or a different awareness?
显然是同一个。
It's obviously the same.
觉察到你我此刻对话的觉知，和今天早上觉察到早餐味道的觉知，完全是同一个觉知。
The awareness that is aware of the conversation you and I are having now, it's exactly the same awareness that was aware of the taste of breakfast this morning.
所以，是的，觉知始终如一。
So yes, awareness is always the same.
我们所觉察的内容总是在变化：思想、图像、感受等等。
What we are aware of always changes thoughts, images, feelings and so on.
所以经验的内容总是变化的。
So the content of experience always changes.
觉知本身或觉知的事实却从不改变。
The fact of being aware or awareness itself never changes.
它就是那永恒变化的背景。
It is it is the ever changing background.
在不断变化的经验前景中，大多数人一生都完全沉浸于前景之中。
Of the always changing foreground of experience, most people spend their lives completely immersed in the foreground of experience.
他们甚至没有意识到还有这样一个背景。
They don't even realize that there is this background.
在经验的背景中，存在着一种觉知的临在，它始终是平静的。
There is this presence of awareness that lies in the background of experience that's always peaceful.
即使我们的思绪动荡不安，即使我们的感受沉重或悲伤，在背景中仍存在着一种平静的觉知临在，它与经验的内容融为一体，就像屏幕与电影融为一体。
Even if our thoughts are agitated, even if our feelings are heavy or sorrowful or in the background, there is this peaceful presence of awareness that is both one with the content of experience, like like the screen is one with the with the with the movie.
但与此同时，它又超越于其上。
But at the same time, it is free of it.
它独立于它，就像屏幕不会被电影中的剧情所影响一样。
It is independent of it, the screen, just as the screen is not affected by the by the drama in the movie.
因此，这种觉知的背景存在不会被经验的内容所影响。
So this background presence of awareness is not affected by the content of experience.
它始终存在于背景中，平静而觉知，了知或觉察着我们的经验。
It's just always there present in the background at peace and knowing or being aware of our experience.
所以，这本质上是通过它，我们所经历的一切才得以被经历，是我们所知道的一切得以被认知的媒介。
So this is essentially the thing through which everything that we experience is experienced or the thing through which everything we know is known.
这就是我们的本质。
This is our Exactly.
所以，我从你与我们的对话中听到的是，没有什么比理解这一点更重要。
So what I've heard you say in your talk with us is that there's nothing more important than understanding this
当然。
Of course.
当然，你现在就是这样。
Of course, you're right now.
觉知就是那种觉知或意识，一切事物都是通过它并借助它而被认知的，因此我们对所知之物的认识，永远只能与我们对认知者自身的认识一样好。
Awareness is that awareness or consciousness is that with which and through which everything is known, then our knowledge of the known can only ever be as good as our knowledge of the knower.
所以，要真正了解任何事物的本质，我们必须首先了解那个认知它之物的本性。
So in order to know what anything truly is, we must first know the nature of that which knows it.
因此，是的，对意识本性的认识是最高的知识，对意识本性的探索是最高的科学。
So yes, the knowledge of the nature of consciousness is the highest knowledge, and the exploration of the nature of consciousness is the highest science.
这太迷人了。
It's fascinating.
通过稍微了解你的工作，鲁珀特，我意识到隐喻在理解这类问题上的力量。
And from learning a little bit about your work, Rupert, it's made me realize about the power of metaphors for understanding these sorts of things.
你为此提供了一个绝佳的隐喻。
And you give a great one for this.
就是有人滑雪时戴的橙色眼镜。
It's the orange glasses when someone goes skiing.
你能告诉我们这个隐喻的重要性吗？
Can you tell us about the importance of that?
是的，你说得对。
Yes, you're right.
这是一个我经常使用的类比。
It's an analogy I use often.
有人在滑雪，戴着橙色镜片的护目镜。
Someone's skiing, they have orange tinted goggles on.
但当然，当你戴上橙色镜片的护目镜十到十五分钟后，你就忘了自己戴着护目镜，以为自己看到的雪就是它本来的样子。
But of course, when you've had your orange tinted goggles on for ten or fifteen minutes, you forget that you're wearing goggles and you think that you see the snow as it really is.
人类的心灵就像一副橙色镜片的眼镜，它拥有两种基本能力。
The human mind is like a pair of orange tinted glasses, and it has two basic faculties.
一种是思考，另一种是感知。
One is thinking, and the other is perceiving.
我们所知道或体验的一切，都是通过心灵来认知的。
And everything we know or experience, we know through the mind.
我们通过思考和感知的能力来认识世界。
We know through our faculties of thinking and perceiving.
思考和感知就像是我们的橙色镜片，用它们自身的局限性来过滤现实。
Thinking and perceiving are our orange tinted glasses that tint reality with their own limitations.
但正如当我们透过橙色镜片看雪时，我们依然在看见雪。
But just as when we look at snow through orange tinted glasses, we are still seeing the snow.
雪是存在的，有一种独立于我们感知之外的实在性。
The snow is there is something there that's prior to and independent of the fact that we are perceiving it.
然而，我们对它的感知却被我们所使用的透镜所染色和扭曲。
However, our perception of it is colored and distorted by the lens through which we look.
我建议，同样的道理也适用于此：存在着一个独立于我们每一个有限心智的外部现实。
Well, I would suggest exactly the same is true that there is a reality out there that is independent of each of our finite minds.
换句话说，我所认知的世界，并非仅仅发生在我有限的心智之中。
In other words, it's not what I know of the world is not just taking place in my finite mind.
如果我这么认为，那我就是一个唯我论者。
If I believe that, I'd be a solipsist.
我认为，这个世界，包括世界上所有的八十亿人，都只是我心智的虚构产物。
I think that the world, including all the 8,000,000,000 people in the world, are just a fabrication of my own mind.
非二元的理解并不支持这种观点。
That's not what the nondual understanding suggests.
非二元的理解认为，有一种现实先于并独立于有限心智的观察。
Nondual understanding suggests that there is a reality that is prior to and independent of its being observed by the finite mind.
但作为人类，我们感知这种现实的唯一方式是通过我们有限的心智。
But as human beings, our only way of perceiving that reality is through our limited finite minds.
我们有限的心智就像一副橙色镜片的眼镜，被思考和感知的能力所染色。
Our limited finite minds are the orange tinted glasses tinted with the faculties of thinking and perceiving.
我们的思考为现实赋予名称，感知为现实赋予形式。
Our thinking confers names upon reality and perceiving confers forms on reality.
因此，当我们看世界时，看到的是无数的名称和形式的多样性。
So what we look at when we see the world is a multiplicity and diversity of names and forms.
这些名称和形式，其实并不存在。
Those names and forms, they're not really there.
现实确实是存在的。
Reality is really there.
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但它在我们眼中呈现出的样子，受限于我们感知它的那些能力。
But it appears to us in accordance with the limitations of the faculties through which we perceive it.
由于我们的思维运作方式，以及我们的思维被构成为思考与感知的形式，我们看到的是一个四维世界。
If our minds work and because we our minds are configured in terms of thinking and perceiving, we see a four dimensional world.
思考发生在单一维度中。
Thinking confers thinking takes place in a single dimension.
那就是时间。
That's time.
而感知则发生在三个维度中。
And perceiving takes place in three dimensions.
因此，当我们观察现实时，看到时间和空间，这并不奇怪。
So it's not a surprise that when we look at reality, we see time and space.
时间和空间并非现实固有的属性。
Time and space are not inherent in reality.
当代物理学如今已证实了这一点。
Contemporary physics confirms this now.
时间与空间并非现实的固有属性。
Time and space are not inherent in reality.
时间与空间是我们认知机制的一部分，是人类心灵将时间与空间投射到现实以及其中所有事件和物体上的结果。
Time and space is is part of our it's part of our cognitive apparatus is our cognitive apparatus, the human mind that projects time and space onto reality and all the events and objects that time and space are populated with.
所以我们看到的是。
So we see a.
我们看到的是现实的过滤版本。
We see a filtered version of reality.
这正是华兹华斯，威廉·华兹华斯，在他所写的诗《丁登寺旁》中优美表达的观点，他说我不会重复这首诗的内容，但他提到我们半创造、半感知这个世界。
It's what Wordsworth, William Wordsworth, so beautifully expressed in the poem he wrote called Lines Composed a Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey, he said, I won't I won't repeat that the poem, but he said that we half create, half perceive the world.
他所指的意思是，我们感知世界，是因为外界确实存在某种东西，我们称之为现实。
And what he meant is that we perceive the world in the sense that there is something out there, let's call it reality.
我们在感知现实，但人类心灵创造了它的表象。
We were perceiving reality, but we create we the human mind create its appearance.
因此，我们所认知的世界、所体验的世界，是现实的混合体，而非二元论的理解会说，那是无限的意识、纯粹的精神或纯粹的爱。
So what we know of as the world, what we what we experience as the world is a mixture of reality, which the nondual understanding would say is is infinite consciousness or pure spirit or pure love.
我们所体验到的世界，是现实与我们有限心智强加于其上的限制的结合。
What we what we experience of the world is is is a conjunction of reality and the limitations imposed on it by our finite mind.
因此，我们既感知世界，也创造我们所体验的世界。
So we both perceive and create the world we experience.
所以我并不是在说世界不真实，也不是在说世界只是我们有限心智中的一个表象。
So I'm not suggesting that the world is not real, nor am I suggesting that the world is just an appearance in our finite mind.
世界是真实的，但同时也是一种幻象。
The world is real, but it's also an illusion.
幻象并不是不真实的东西。
An illusion is not something that is not real.
幻象是真实存在的，但并非它表面上看起来的那个样子。
It's something that is real, but is not what it appears to be.
因此，世界作为无限意识、精神、爱或任何其他名称，是真实的。
So the world is real as infinite consciousness or spirit or love or whatever.
最终，它是不可言说的，但无论我们用什么术语，它都是真实的。
Ultimately, it's unnameable, but whatever term we use, it is real.
但万相的表象终究是虚幻的。
But the appearance of 10,000 things are ultimately illusory.
换句话说，在终极分析中，并不存在独立的事物或人。
In other words, in the ultimate analysis, there are no independent things or people.
在表象层面，只有万相，它们背后是实相，并显现为这些表象。
There are only 10,000 things at the level of appearances behind that reality and appearing as those appearances.
存在着一个单一不可分割的整体。
There is a single indivisible hole.
就像你看电影时，看到人群中有成千上万的人。
Just as when you watch a movie, you see 10,000 people in the crowd.
但当你用手指划过人群中的成千上万个人时，你找不到成千上万个人。
But when you run your finger across the 10,000 people in the crowd, you don't find 10,000 people.
你只看到一块屏幕，而屏幕上没有任何分割。
You find a screen and there's no divisions in the screen.
那里只有一样东西。
There's not that there's only one thing there.
这就是不二的理解所说的。
That's what the non dual understanding says.
只有一样东西，而它又不是东西。
There's only one thing which is not a thing.
它是纯粹的意识。
It's pure consciousness.
这让我想到，人类的感官系统，甚至任何动物的感官系统，都是让这个世界得以显现所必需的。
It reminds me of so just the idea that if, like, humans human sensory systems or even any animal sensory systems are required to bring this world into being.
你知道，如果没有这些感官，没有这种感知机制，阳光或光子就只是光子。
You know, without without those senses there, without that that perceptual apparatus, sunlight or photons of light would remain as photons.
但因为我们在这里，将世界带入存在，将那些光子转化为光。
But because we are here to bring the world into being and convert those photons into into light.
我现在甚至会更进一步。
I would go even further now.
就连光子也是现实向有限心智呈现自身的一部分。
Even the photons are part of how reality presents itself to us, to a finite mind.
光子并不在外面。
The photons are not out there.
光子只是现实呈现在人类心智中的方式。
The photons are just how reality appears to a human mind.
它们甚至都不是光子。
They're not even photons.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，这也有道理。
Well, fair enough.
有道理。
Fair enough.
所以我想问的下一件事是，鲁珀特，这个峰会主要是面向心理健康专业人士，那些一对一帮助他人减少生活中不必要痛苦的人。
So the next thing I wanted to ask about, Rupert, is this summit is primarily for mental health professionals, people working one on one with other people to help them reduce unnecessary suffering from their lives.
所以我想从你的角度了解一下。
So I'm curious to ask from your point of view.
我知道你并不是以这种方式实践的，但你认为为什么非二元的理解对心理健康专业人士来说可能很重要呢？
I know you're not you don't practice in that way, but why do you think this might be important for mental health professionals to be aware of, the non dual understanding?
我认为，无论心理健康专业人士从事哪个具体领域，这都是他们最应该了解的事情。
I think this is the most important thing that any mental health professional should know about, irrespective of the particular branch of mental health that they work in.
要知道，每一个来找他们的人，都带着某种问题，某种程度的痛苦。
To know, everyone that comes to them comes to them with a problem, some degree of suffering.
而心理健康专业人士最应该明白的是，即使在他们正在经历痛苦的此刻，面对他们的那个人的本质，依然是平和与喜悦。
And what's the most important thing for the mental health professional to know is that even now in the midst of their suffering, the nature of the person who who that is facing them, their nature is peace and joy.
并不是说他们会在三个月或三年的治疗结束后才变成那样。
It's not that they might become that at the end of three months or three years of treatment.
而是说，他们现在就是那样。
It's that they are that now.
但他们的思想和情绪的内容遮蔽了这一点。
But the content of their thoughts and emotions have veiled that.
因此，患者内在的平和状态对他们自己来说是不可及的。
And as a result, the innate piece of that patient is not available to that patient.
现在，我并不是想暗示心理健康专业人士可以像我对你这样与患者交谈。
Now, I don't mean to imply that a mental health professional can speak to that patient in the way that I'm speaking to you.
我是一个所谓的——我不太喜欢这个术语，但为了方便起见，我是一个非二元性的老师或讲解者。
I'm a so called I don't like the term, but for want of a better term, I'm a teacher or a speaker of of non duality.
所以，我的职责不仅是非二元性，还包括有时被称为直接路径的特定分支，在这里我们直接触及我们的真我。
So it's my job and not just non duality, but the particular branch it that sometimes referred to as the direct path where we go directly to our true nature.
我们不会陷入李尔王的思想、情感、与女儿们的关系，以及他王国的纷争和战争。
We don't get involved with King Lear's thoughts and his feelings and his relationships with the daughter, his daughters and the troubles in his kingdom and the war with them.
我们直接切入问题的核心。
We just go straight to the heart of the matter.
你究竟是谁，李尔王？
Who are you really, King Lear?
我们只对这一点感兴趣。
That's all we're interested in.
这就是我所做的事情。
So that's what I do.
现在，心理健康专业人士无法做到这一点，除非在极少数情况下。
Now, mental health professional won't be able to do that, except possibly in very rare circumstances.
但就所有实际目的而言，他们无法做到这一点，因为痛苦的程度会如此强烈，以至于建议他们一步到位地回到真实本性，这一步太大了。
But for all intents and purposes, they won't be able to do that because the degree of suffering will be so intense that to suggest they go all the way back to their true nature in one step would be too big a step.
这会超出他们的承受能力。
It would be it would be over their heads.
因此，心理健康专业人士必须走得更慢一些。
So a mental health professional will have to go more slowly.
并在更相对的层面上处理问题，调查问题，比如：告诉我你的童年，告诉我你的关系，开始探索他们的体验，然后慢慢地、慢慢地、慢慢地引导他们回到患者本质的层面。
And deal with the issue at a more at more relative levels, investigate the problem, Okay, tell me about your childhood, tell me about your relationship, tell me and and to start exploring their experience and slowly, slowly, slowly work their way back to the essential nature of their patient.
每位治疗师或咨询师都需要具备这种技能，他们大多数都接受过某种方法的训练，因此拥有能够应对和探索患者痛苦的技巧和工具。
And it's this is the skill required of each therapist or counselor Practitioners that they will all most will have been trained in a certain modality, so they will have skills and tools that enable them to address and explore the suffering of their patient.
他们必须使用这些工具。
And it's necessary that they use those tools.
但重要的是，他们与患者所做的工作要建立在这种理解之上，因为治疗效果的很大一部分并不在于患者与治疗师之间发生的具体内容。
But what's important is that the work they do with the patient is informed by this understanding, because much of the effectiveness of the therapeutic work doesn't lie in the content of what takes place between the patient and the therapy.
治疗发生在场域中，在这个场域里，关系得以建立，充满开放、接纳、不评判与慈爱。
Takes place in the field, in the context of which the relationship takes place, the openness, the acceptance, the unjudgingness, the lovingness.
因此，治疗师的职责就是提供这样的场域。
So it's the therapists job is to provide that context.
是的，有必要就内容进行对话，但在绝大多数情况下，这确实是治疗不可或缺的一部分。
And yes, it's necessary to dialogue about the content, but it's not and that's in almost all cases, it's an essential part of the treatment.
但最终，真正起效的，是关系所发生的那个空间。
But in the end, it's the it's the space in which the relationship takes place that is really the effective agent.
因此，治疗师需要知道，但更重要的是，不仅要了解和理解，更要感受到：坐在对面的那个人，其本然状态此刻正安宁、健康完好。
And so the therapist needs to know, but more importantly, not just to know and understand, but to feel that the person that's sitting across from them, their being is or right now their being is at peace and in perfect health.
所需做的，仅仅是觉察到这一点；而正是关系的质量——而非关系的内容——让患者得以开始亲身体验到这种状态。
All that's necessary is to recognize that and something about the quality of the relationship, not the content of the relationship, the quality of the relationship enables the patient to begin to experience this for themselves.
医生。
Doctor.
说得非常好。
That's very, very well said.
在你讲述的过程中，我想到了另一件事。
And as you're speaking, another thing I suppose came to mind.
心理健康领域有一个概念叫做心理灵活性。
There's a concept in mental health called psychological flexibility.
提出这个概念的人叫史蒂夫·海斯。
And the guy that sort of came up with this is called Steve Hayes.
他对这项技能的描述是——它可能是幸福感中最重要的变量之一——关键在于，重要的不是改变你的想法或感受。
And his description of this this skill is probably the most or one of the most important variables in in well-being is that it's not about changing what you think or feel that matters.
这是在改变你与自己想法或感受的关系方式。
It's it's changing how you relate to what you think or feel.
换句话说，你正在将自己从体验的内容中解脱出来。
So in other words, you're untangling yourself from the content of experience.
我想这让我联想到这种直接路径方法：你正在将自己从体验的内容中抽离出来，认识到真正的自己是谁。
And I suppose what this reminds me of in in this kind of approach, the the direct path, is you're you are disentangling yourself from the the content of your experience, you're realizing who you really are.
然后你意识到，所有这些本质上都不是你。
And then you realize that all of these things are not essentially you.
是的。
Yes.
这可以是一条非常直接的疗愈之路。
And that can be a very direct path to healing.
是的，我现在喜欢这个概念——心理灵活性。
Yes, I like that now, psychological flexibility.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
这非常好。
So that's very nice.
你说这不是改变你的体验，而是改变你与它的关系。
You say it's not about changing your experience, it's about how you relate to it.
因此，在这样做时，你退后了一步，而不是与你的想法和感受纠缠在一起。
So in doing that, you're taking one step back instead of being entangled with your thoughts and feelings.
你说的是，不，我们不会去触碰我们的想法和感受。
You're saying, No, we're not going to touch our thoughts and feelings.
我们会退后一步，探索我们看待它们的方式。
We're going to take a step back and explore the way we look at them.
所以这很美好。
So it's beautiful.
这并不是完全退回到你的本真本质。
It's not a step all the way back to your true nature.
这并不是一个问题：谁在观察它们。
It's not the question, who is looking at them.
但这是一半退回到你的本真本质。
But it's halfway back to your true nature.
让我们探索我们看待它们的方式。
Let's explore the way we look at them.
我们是以评判的心态来看待它们吗？
Do we look at them with judgment?
我们是以爱的眼光看待它们吗？
Do we look at them with love?
所以这是一个美妙的半程步骤。
So that's a beautiful halfway step.
让我们探索我们与这些内容的关系方式。
Let's explore the way we relate to this content.
下一步是：好吧，但那个‘我’是谁？
And the next step would be, okay, but who is the I?
是谁首先拥有这些内容，又是谁与之产生关联？
Who is the one that, First of all, this content and who is the one that relates to it.
让我们再退一步。
Let's take another step back.
但我以前没听过这种说法，不过在我看来，这是一种非常明智的方法，也很好地印证了我之前提到的观点：治疗师或实践者可能无法一步到位地引导患者回到其真实本性，但可以引导他们走一半的路。
But but it's a it's a I've not heard of that before, but it's a it's it sounds a very intelligent approach to me and one that that would be a very nice example of what I suggested before that a therapist or a practitioner may not be able to go all the way back to their patients true nature in one step, but could could go halfway back.
这将是‘退半步’的一个美好例证，即陷入改变思绪与情感的纠缠中。
That would be a lovely example of going halfway back, getting tangled in changing thoughts and feelings.
让我们退一步，探索我们与它的关系方式。
Let's take a step back and explore the way we relate to it.
也许我们可以这样持续几个月，然后正如你所说，患者至少在一定程度上从他们的经验内容中解脱出来。
And maybe we do that for a couple of months, and then that the patient, as you said, has disentangled themselves from the content of their experience, at least to a degree.
但足以让他们在几周或几个月后说：好吧，现在在你的经验背后，你是谁？
But but but enough to enable them a couple of weeks or a couple of months later to say, okay, now who are you behind your experience?
那个既觉知又与之关联的‘谁’是谁？
Who is the one that both knows and relates to?
因此，这将是一个很好的例子，说明从业者如何理解这种方法，并根据患者进行调整。
So this would be a very nice example of the way a practitioner could understand this approach, but would tailor this approach to their patient.
完全正确。
A 100%.
完全正确。
A 100%.
我认为，阻碍我们真正接纳关于‘我们是谁’这一理解的一个重要因素是，我们知道幸福不会在外部世界中找到，某种程度上，我想到的是：如果我只是理解了幸福与平静，一切都在内在，那我就会失去动力和干劲。
So a big thing that I think might get in the way of really embracing this understanding of who we are and the fact that know, happiness isn't gonna be found in in the world outside or whatever to a certain extent is for me, the thing that will come to mind is, you know, if I just have this understanding that, you know, happiness and peace, everything is within, then I'm gonna lose my motivation and my drive.
对吧？
Right?
但我会对这种想法说，每当我偶然瞥见这一点时，我就想，你知道吗？
But then what I would say to that is whenever I sort of even got caught a glimpse of this, I was like, you know what?
这对我来说真的非常启发，我想和别人分享。
It was really, like, enlightening for me, and I wanted to share it with others.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
然后你和我看看贝尔纳多·卡斯特罗、埃克哈特·托利或艾伦·瓦茨，这些人都在向世界传播这种理解，他们是最有动力的人之一，但这并不是一种
And then yourself and I look at Bernardo Castro and Eckhart Tolle or Alan Watts, are all these people that are putting this understanding out into the world, they're some of the most motivated people, but it's not like a
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
现在我们不会失去我们的动力。
Now we don't lose we don't lose our motivation.
我们失去的只是我们的痛苦。
We all that we lose is our suffering.
那就是我们失去的东西。
That's what we lose.
正如每个人都知道的，当他们感到快乐时，当你内心平和快乐时，你会做什么？
And as as everybody knows, when they feel happy, what what do you do when you feel at peace and happy?
你会走进卧室，关上门，坐在床上吗？
Do you go into your bedroom, close the door and sit on your bed?
不会，你不会。
No, you don't.
内心会有一种自然涌动的感觉。
There's just this bubbling up inside.
幸福，几乎无法容纳爱。
Happiness, it's almost impossible to contain love.
你感受到爱时，难道会走进卧室，坐在那里吗？不，不会。
You feel love, do go into your bedroom and sit there on your No, don't.
你会给朋友打电话。
You call a friend.
你会放一首歌。
You you you you play a song.
你会跳舞。
You dance.
你会写点什么。
You write something.
你会做一顿美味的饭。
You cook a delicious meal.
幸福和爱几乎是无法被束缚的。
You it's almost happiness and love are almost impossible to contain.
它们会自然地从你身上流露出来。
They just flow out of you.
而且，你自然地想要表达、沟通、庆祝和分享和平、喜悦与爱，这是很自然的。
And it's and you it's natural to want to express and communicate and celebrate and share peace and joy and love in some ways.
所以，根本不存在失去动力的问题。
So there's no question of losing motivation.
我们失去的，是那种基于临时、有限、孤立的自我感受的旧动机——这种自我总是向外寻求他人的安慰、认可、赞美和爱。
The motivation that we lose is the old motivation that was based on our feeling of being a temporary, finite, limited, separate self that was always going out into the world, seeking reassurance from other people, seeking seeking acknowledgment from other people, seeking praise from us, seeking love from other people.
我们之所以失去它，是因为我们知道它已经不再存在了。
We lose that because we know that it no longer lives that.
因此，有时人们会经历一段过渡期，所有曾经为自我服务的旧动机都会逐渐消退。
So there may be a that sometimes people relate a kind of interim period when all their old motivations, which they engaged in the service of the ego, subside.
但很快，一种新的动机就会出现，它不再基于旧有的自我感所带来的匮乏、悲伤与冲突。
But then fairly quickly, a new motivation arises that is no longer based on the old egoic feeling of lack and sorrow and conflict.
而是基于这种与生俱来的平静、喜悦与爱。
But it's based on this innate peace and joy and love.
正如我之前所说，这种感觉只是从你内心自然涌出。
And that, as I said earlier, it's it's it it just bubbles up in you.
几乎不可能压抑住它。
It's almost impossible to contain it.
你说话的时候，我又想到了另一个比喻。
As you're speaking there as well, another metaphor comes to mind.
你经常听到这样的说法：你的杯子会溢出到世界中，就像你所说的，这种源源不断的涌出。
So you always hear about this idea of your your cup overflowing into the world, you know, this sort of like you said, this bubbling up.
而那些不理解这一点的人，总是向外寻求人和事物来填满自己的杯子，但杯子总是会空掉。
And the thing that came to mind there was the person that doesn't understand this, they are always going out into the world looking for people and things to fill up their cup, but it always runs out.
而如果你有这种理解，你的杯子就像连接到了一个永恒的源泉，永远满溢，确实如此。
Whereas if you have this understanding, it's like your cup is plugged into like the means or a fountain that is everlasting and it's always Exactly.
在我们拥有这种内在体悟之前，我们用世界来服务自己的幸福。
Before we have this felt understanding, we use the world in service of our happiness.
在我们拥有这种理解之后，我们用幸福来服务世界。
After we have this understanding, we use our happiness in service of the world.
百分之百。
100%.
好吧，鲁珀特，我们还剩几分钟，我可以问你很多问题。
Well, we've got a few minutes left, Rupert, and there's a lot of things I could ask you.
我在想，怎样才能最好地总结这次对话。
I'm trying to think what would be the best way to sort of wrap this up.
好的。
Okay.
我想问两个问题。
There's two questions I wanna ask.
如果这是我们默认的思维模式，世界会是什么样子？
What would what would the world look like if this was our default paradigm?
如果我们从小就知道并感受到这一点，世界会怎样？
If this is what we grew up knowing and feeling?
如果这种理解成为主流，而不是物质主义的范式，普通人和地球的世界会是什么样子？
What might the world actually look like for everyday people and the planet if this was the default understanding and not the materialist paradigm?
首先，人们会感受到平静与喜悦，而无需从物品和物质中寻求这些感受。
Well, for a start, people would feel peace and joy without needing to derive that from objects and substances.
这并不意味着我们不再需要物品和物质，但不再是为了寻找幸福而依赖它们。
It doesn't mean to say that wouldn't still require objects and substances, but not for the purpose of seeking finding happiness.
这本身就会对我们产生深远的影响。
That itself would have a profound effect on us.
人们会内心平静，感到满足。
People would be at peace, people would feel fulfilled.
会有更多的创造力。
There would be much more creativity.
人们的生活会以富有创意的方式将这种理解带入世界，与社会分享。
There would be people people's lives would be engaged in in creative ways of bringing this understanding into the world, sharing it with society.
虽然我目前只是以一种方式在做，但还有无数种方式可以实现，人们的生活将用于分享、交流和庆祝这种理解。
Though I'm just doing it in in one way, but there are innumerable ways of of doing it, and people's lives would be spent sharing, communicating, celebrating this understanding.
因此，会有更多——每个人都会感到满足和有创造力，而且冲突会非常少。
So there'd be a lot more there'd be a lot everyone would feel fulfilled and created, and there'd be there'd be very little conflict.
看看我们生活中所有的冲突。
Look at all the conflicts in our lives.
它们几乎都源于分离感。
Nearly all of them originate in the feeling of separation.
我与他人是分离的。
I am separate from the other.
正是这种根本的感觉造成了我们的冲突。
It's that fundamental feeling that is the cause of our conflicts.
因此，冲突会少得多。
So there'd be much less conflict.
正如我之前所说，这并不意味着我们不会有任何分歧。
As I said earlier, doesn't mean say we wouldn't there wouldn't be disagreements.
人们可能仍会有不同的政治立场等等，但冲突会非常少，几乎不会存在冲突，要变得刻薄、不公或残忍几乎是不可能的。
There would still be some people would have different political persuasions and so on, but there'd be very little conflict, there'd be no conflict, it would be almost impossible, but it would be impossible to to be unkind, unjust, cruel.
为什么？
Why?
因为我们觉得对方就是我们自己。
Because we feel that the other is ourself.
没有人会对所爱的人刻薄。
Nobody is unkind to somebody they love.
为什么？
Why?
因为他们觉得对方就是他们自己。
Because they feel that the other is is their self.
人们只会对那些他们认为不同于自己的人刻薄、不公和残忍。
People are only unkind and unjust and cruel to someone they think is other than themselves.
但如果你有这样的感受，这就是为什么我们通常不会对我们的孩子残忍或刻薄，比如，因为我们爱他们，所以我们对他们表现出善意。
But if you feel so that's why we're we're not cruel and unkind except for exceptional circumstances to our children, for instance, because we love them, so we show kindness to them.
但有些对子女善良慈爱的人，却对他人极其冷酷无情。
But some people who are kind and loving towards their children can be extremely unkind and unloving towards others.
但最终，你的爱意不应只局限于自己小小的家人和朋友圈子。
But in the end, your feeling of love is not just extended to your own small circle of family and friends.
你觉得自己爱每一个人。
You feel that you love everybody.
正如我之前所说，这并不意味着你喜欢每一个人。
As I said before, it doesn't mean so you like everybody.
你不会对每个人都温柔地微笑，但在最深层的层面，你感到自己与每个人共享着存在。
You don't smile sweetly at everybody, but you feel at the deepest level you share your being with everyone.
这种理解塑造了你与他人的关系。
That understanding informs your relationship with people.
因此，即使存在分歧，这些分歧也会在这种理解的背景下被探讨——即在最深层，我们是一体的。
So even when there are disagreements, the disagreements are explored in the context of this understanding that at the deepest level, we are one.
这使得冲突、暴力和战争成为不可能。
And this makes conflicts, violence, war impossible.
我们在这里真正讨论的含义，是一种身份的根本转变：从将自己视为一个孤立的自我，转变为将自己视为周围的一切和所有人。
And what the implications of what we're actually talking about here is a radical shift in identity from viewing yourself as this one individual egoic self into essentially everything and everybody around you.
那就是你。
That that is you.
完全正确。
Exactly right.
我们感受到、理解到，但更重要的是，我们感受到自己本质上并不局限于被称为我的身体和心灵的宇宙一角，而是那无色的本体——所有人、所有动物、所有事物的存在都源于此。
We feel, we understand, but more importantly feel that what we essentially are is not just limited to this little corner of the universe called my body and my mind, but what we essentially is the being, the uncolored being from which everyone not just everyone, but all people, all animals, and all things derive their existence.
我们感受到自己就是那本体。
And we feel we are that.
所以是的，我们仍然通过这个小小的身体和心灵的感官来感知世界。
So yes, it's we still perceive the world through the faculties of this little body mind.
但我们感受到自己的身份并不局限于这些。
But we feel that our identity is not limited to that.
身份远远超越了我们自身身体和心灵的局限，涵盖了所有人和一切事物。
Identity expands way beyond the limitations of our own body and mind and encompasses everyone and everything.
这就是我们称之为爱的体验。
It's the experience we call love.
当每个人都知道爱的体验时，爱的体验究竟是什么？
What what what what when we everyone knows the experience of love and what is the experience of love?
当我们感受到分离感减弱时，那就是爱——爱就是分离感的消失。
It's when we feel that the felt that the sense of separation diminishes that that's what love is the absence of the sense of separation.
这是所有关系的自然状态。
It's the natural condition of all relationship.
这是我们原始的状态，是爱的状态，是我们共享存在的状态。
It's our primordial condition, the condition of love, the condition of our shared being.
我们与每个人和每件事共享我们的存在，这应该是你所谈论的新范式的基础，新范式的单一原则就是：我们与每个人和每件事共享我们的存在。
We share our being with everyone and everything that that should be the foundation that you talk about, a new paradigm, the new paradigm that there would be a single principle underlying this new paradigm, namely that we share our being with everyone and everything.
有一个无限、不可分割的整体或实相，其本质是意识、精神或爱，所有人和万物都从中获得其看似独立的存在。
There is one infinite, indivisible whole or reality whose nature is consciousness or spirit or love, which everyone and everything derives its apparently independent existence.
这将是根本性的理解，一种深层的体悟，贯穿于我们所有的行动、思想、感受和关系之中。
That that would be the the fundamental understanding, felt understanding that underlies all our actions, thoughts, feelings, relationships, and so on.
如果真是这样，如果你的根本认知是这样，并且你把他人看作自己，那么你对待他们的方式就会彻底改变，因为你不会以仇恨或其他方式对待自己。
And if that's the case, if that's your fundamental understanding and you see your fellow human beings as yourself, then that completely changes how you treat them because you treat your you wouldn't treat yourself with hatred or anything.
没错。
Exactly.
你把每个人当作自己。
You treat everyone as yourself.
而地球也是如此，这听起来似乎很玄妙，但就像你不会在自己家里、自己的居所里乱扔垃圾一样，当你意识到地球就是你的家时，你也不会对地球乱扔垃圾。
And the planet then this is sounds this is very sort of esoteric, but the planet is like in the same way that you wouldn't litter in your house, your own house, your own home, you're then not gonna litter in the planet because you realize that is your home.
你知道的？
You know?
没错。
Exactly.
因为你知道自己本质的本体，与所有的人、动物，乃至一切事物、自然、地球——所有的一切——共享着同一个本体。正因如此，就像你不会糟蹋自己的家、不会糟蹋自己的身体、不会糟蹋自己的家一样，你也不会糟蹋自己的地球，因为你感受到自己与这一切完全认同。
Because the the being that you know to be your own essential nature is the same being from which not just all people and animals, but all things, nature, the planet, everything that everything, everything share, everyone and everything shares its being and for exactly the same reason that you don't trash your own home, You don't trash your own body, you don't trash your own home, you don't trash your own planet, because you feel yourself identified with all of that.
把自己视为一切，而不仅仅是一个叫做‘我的身体’的宇宙角落。
Feel yourself as everything, not just this little corner of the universe called my body.
好的。
Okay.
最后一个问题，鲁珀特，想问完就结束。
So one last question to finish up, Rupert.
从理智上理解这些道理是可以的，但如何将这些认知从头脑深入到内心呢？
It's okay to intellectually know these things at at a head level, but how do you move this from the head to the heart?
这是必须顺其自然发生的事吗？还是人们可以采取一些方法来加速这个过程？
Is it something that just has to happen by itself, are there ways that people can accelerate this process?
因为我知道，就连你自己也曾有过导师，我想是弗朗西斯·德西尔吧。
Because I know even yourself, had a mentor, think it was Francis decile.
是的，我在十几岁的时候就开始对这些议题产生兴趣，期间接触过多位老师，广泛探索并实践了吠檀多传统、苏菲传统和坦特罗传统。
Yes, I I became interested in these matters in my early teens, and I had various teachers and explored a lot and practiced in the Vedantic tradition, Sufi tradition, the Tantric tradition.
所以我对这些议题进行了大量探索。就内在探索而言——这是最初的探索——它需要深入自身，穿越思想、情感、行为、人际关系，一路回溯到我们最本质的层面。
So I've explored these matters a lot and really they they in terms of the inward exploration, which is the initial exploration, it involves going deeply into ourselves, going through the thoughts, feelings, actions, relationships, one's way back deeply into oneself until until we get to that aspect of us, which is essential.
我说的‘本质’，是指我们身上无法被剥离的部分。
When I say essential, mean, the aspect of us that can't be removed from us.
它就是当你剥离掉所有形象、邮件、电影、文件和YouTube内容之后，依然留存的东西——就像那块透明的屏幕。
It's, it's what remains when you take all the images, the emails, movies, the documents and YouTube did what remains the screen, the transparent screen.
当我们……嗯，我现在要混合一下隐喻了。
What remains when we it's like when we when we I'm going to mix my metaphors now.
现在，当我们晚上脱衣服时，会把所有能脱的东西都脱掉。
Now when we when we undress at night, we take off everything that we can take off.
剩下的就是我们赤裸的身体吗？
What remains our naked body?
我们也是这样做的。
We do the same thing.
想象一下，脱去的不是衣服，而是你的体验、想法、感受、感觉和知觉。
Imagine taking off not your clothes, but your experience, your thoughts, your feelings, your sensations, your perceptions.
这并不难做到。
And this is not difficult to do.
我们每晚入睡时都会这样做。
We do it every night when we fall asleep.
每晚入睡时，我们的想法、感受、感觉、知觉、行为和关系都会自然地离开我们。
Every night when we fall asleep, our thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, actions, relationship, all of these leave us naturally.
所以我们就是这样做的。
So we do that.
但我们在清醒时也这样做。
But we do it whilst remaining awake.
而我向你们描述的，正是冥想或祈祷的过程：当我们放下所有能够放下的东西后，剩下的究竟是什么？
And what remains when and what I'm describing to you is really the process of meditation or prayer, what remains when we have removed or at least if not removed, when we've let go of everything that we can let go of.
仅仅是存在的事实，单纯地存在着，而这种存在是平静的。
Just the fact of being, the fact of simply being, and that being is at peace.
它不需要任何东西。
Needs nothing.
它一无所缺。
It lacks nothing.
它一无所求。
It wants nothing.
它毫不抗拒。
It resists nothing.
这就是通往平静与幸福的直接道路。
That's the direct path to peace and happiness.
而这同样改变了我们对死亡的理解，因为
And that again, that even changes our understanding of death because
完全正确。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yes.
当屏幕上的角色死亡时，屏幕并不会消失。
When the character on the screen dies, the screen doesn't disappear.
它只是失去了一个临时的显现形式。
It just loses one of its temporary appearances.
但当我们死亡时，我们本质上所是的‘存在’——它并非个人化的存在，而是极其亲密的，却是非个人且无限的。
But when we die, the being we essentially are, which is not a personal being, it is utterly intimate, but it's impersonal and infinite.
存在只是失去了它的一种显现形式。
Being loses one of its appearances.
是的，身体和心灵会消失，但我们本质上所是的东西依然如故。
Yes, the body and the mind disappear, but what we essentially are remains as it always is.
百分之百。
A 100%.
所以，鲁珀特，为了总结一下，对于那些希望进一步探索非二元理解并更多了解你作品的人，你建议他们从哪里开始呢？
So, Rupert, just to wrap up, for someone that's interested in exploring the non dual understanding further and learning more about your work, where would be good places for people to start?
你有什么特别推荐的书吗？
Any particular books you'd recommend people to check out?
我认为对初学者来说，最好的起点是YouTube，因为我上传了大量视频，包括对问题的回应和许多冥想内容。
I think the best place for someone to start would be YouTube, because I have numerous YouTube clips, responses to questions, lots of meditations.
这些都是免费的。
It's all free.
有大约一百个YouTube视频，可以作为入门的起点。
There are several 100 YouTube clips that would be the place to begin.
如果他们想更深入地了解，我推荐从《你就是你所追寻的幸福》这本书开始。
If they want to go into it more deeply, I recommend starting with the book, You Are the Happiness You Seek.
还有一本更具哲学性的书，《意识的本质》，以及几本关于冥想的短书，比如《觉察觉知》和《做我自己》。
A more philosophical book, The Nature of Consciousness, a couple of short books about meditations, being aware of being aware and being myself.
鲁珀特，我不打扰你了。
Rupert, I will let you go.
和你交谈真是无比愉快，衷心祝愿你在今后继续努力的过程中一切顺利。
It's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you, and I wanna wish you all the best going forward in your continued continued efforts.
谢谢你，尼尔。
Thank you, Niall.
和你交谈总是令我感到愉快。
As always, it's a pleasure speaking with you.
再次感谢你邀请我。
Thank you for inviting me again.
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