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仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
本播客中表达的信息和观点不一定代表ASRM和SART的立场。
The information and opinions expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of ASRM and SART.
这些播客仅作为一般信息提供，不能替代与医生的咨询。
These podcasts are provided as a source of general information and are not a substitute for consultation with a physician.
欢迎收听《SART生育专家》播客，该播客为您带来关于想要建立家庭的人们的重要话题的讨论。
Welcome to SART Fertility Experts, a podcast that brings you discussions on important topics for people trying to build a family.
我们的专家是SART的成员，即辅助生殖技术协会，该组织致力于确保您获得优质的生育护理。
Our experts are members of SART, the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology, an organization dedicated to ensuring you receive quality fertility care.
你好。
Hi.
我是保罗·林医生。
This is doctor Paul Lin.
我是西雅图生殖医学中心的生殖内分泌与不孕不育专家，也是辅助生殖技术协会（即SART）的前任主席。
I am a reproductive endocrinology and infertility specialist at Seattle Reproductive Medicine and former past president of the Society of Assisted Reproductive Technology or otherwise known as SART.
SART是美国生殖医学协会（即ASRM）的附属协会。
SART is an affiliate society of the American Society of Reproductive Medicine or ASRM.
记住，IVF成功始于SART。
Remember, IVF success starts with SART.
欢迎收听本周的SART生育专家节目，本期节目名为《沉默之旅：男性伴侣在组建家庭中的挣扎》。
Welcome to this week's episode of SART Fertility Experts entitled The Silent Journey, the male partner in the struggle to build a family.
我今天的嘉宾是丹·巴克先生，他是我在SRM的同事妮可·巴克医生的丈夫，妮可也是一位获得委员会认证的生殖内分泌与不孕不育专家。丹是两个优秀孩子的父亲，他们是在与男性不育的漫长而艰难的斗争后出生的。
My guest today is mister Dan Barker, who is the loving husband of my partner at SRM, doctor Nicole Barker, another board certified reproductive endocrinology and infertility specialist and father of two wonderful children after a long arduous struggle with male infertility.
本期播客的目的是讨论不孕不育夫妇中所谓的“沉默伴侣”的期望。
The purpose of this podcast is to discuss the expectations of the, quote, silent partner in the infertility couple.
很多时候，怀孕的困难被错误地认为是女方的问题，而不是男方的问题。
Oftentimes, the struggle to get pregnant has been erroneously assumed to be an issue with the female partner and not so much with the male partner.
丹将讨论男性的视角以及那些常常不被了解或很少被提及的起起伏伏，因为大部分关注点都在女方身上。
Dan will discuss the male perspective and the ups and downs that oftentimes are not known or not talked about very often since much of the focus is on the female partner.
丹，很高兴你能来。
Great to have you here, Dan.
欢迎。
Welcome.
谢谢邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
很高兴来到这里。
Glad to be here.
不客气。
You're welcome.
好的。
Alright.
我们开始吧。
Let's get into this.
丹，简单介绍一下你自己，以及你……
Dan, give me a a light intro into who you are and how how...
你为什么来参加这个播客？
Why did you get in to this podcast?
嗯，我住在西雅图地区，西雅图南部。
Well, I I live here in the Seattle area, South Of Seattle.
我们从2012年就住在这里了。
We've been here since 2012.
我和我妻子是从俄亥俄州搬过来的。
My wife and I moved out here from Ohio.
所以我们来自东海岸。
So we're we're from the East Coast.
对，我在一家科技公司工作。
And, yeah, I I work at a tech company.
我是做产品管理的。
I'm in product.
所以，嗯，我……
And so, yeah, I...
说到，比如，进入这个……
As far as, like, getting into the...
这个播客，因为我妻子不孕，男性视角这个话题被提过几次。
This podcast, you know, with with my wife being infertility, the male point of view has come up a few times.
所以我很高兴能分享我的故事。
And so I've been happy to share my story.
我觉得这挺……
I think it's been...
我有一些朋友也经历过这个过程，他们读过我发布的一些内容。
You know, I've had friends who've went through this journey and and have read some of the things that I've put out there.
我知道我们在SRM上发过一篇博客文章，其实有很多朋友回应说，嘿。
I know we had a a blog post on SRM, which I've had actually a lot of friends respond to and say, hey.
你的……
Your...
那篇文章真的帮到我了。
That that that article really helped me.
里面有一些很有用的信息。
There was some good info.
或者你当时是怎么做的？
Or what did you do?
那我可以吗？
And can I?
在我们开始这段旅程的时候，我应该考虑些什么？
As we're starting this journey, what should I be thinking about?
我一直很乐意和大家分享我的故事，希望这能有所帮助，或者至少能让人从一个人的角度有所了解。
And, you know, I've been happy to share my my story with folks and then hopes that, you know, it helps or at least provide some way to understand, you know, at least one person's perspective.
我觉得你的见解会非常宝贵。
I think your insight is gonna be invaluable.
很多将要听到这个的患者都会从中受益。
The many patients that are gonna be hearing this.
让我们从头开始吧。
Let's start at the beginning.
大概是怎么开始的？
I mean, kinda how did it get going?
你是怎么……
How do you how...
你是直接去找你的常规初级保健医生了吗？
Did you just go see your your regular primary care doctor?
当时是有什么情况吗？
Was something going on?
在这段旅程中，是什么触发点让你开始的？
What was the trigger points for you in this journey?
对我们来说，我们结婚稍微晚了一些。
For us, you know, we we got married a little later.
我当时三十多岁。
I was in my thirties.
所以，我的妻子完全了解所有细节，对吧。
And so and my wife understands all the details, right, around that.
所以我们大概知道，可能会有些问题。
So we we kinda knew, like, there might be some issues.
所以一旦我们开始，我们就……
So once we started, we're...
我们结婚后，就想很快组建家庭，想开始这个过程。
When we got married, we wanted to have a family pretty quickly, and we wanted to start that process.
所以当我们开始尝试的时候，我们自然尝试了一段时间，但事情并不顺利。
So when we did, we we tried naturally for a while and things weren't really working.
然后我们想，不如先确认一下我这边……
And we thought, let's just make sure all...
一切都正常，就像一种预防性的检查。
Everything's good on my end, you know, just as, like, almost like a a a preemptive thing.
结果果然，最后发现……
And and sure enough, it ended up...
我们发现，生育问题主要出在我这边，这确实是个挑战。
We we found out that, you know, it was the fertility factor on my end was really a a challenge.
这是个问题。
It was a problem.
我当时对此感到非常震惊。
And I was pretty shocked by all of that.
所以，这就是我们生育之旅的开始。
So that's what really started our fertility journey.
我们想尽快有个家。
We wanted to have a family quickly.
我们只是在我这边做了个测试，看看我的数量如何。
We we we we just did a test on my end to see if what my counts were.
结果非常糟糕，然后那才真正开始了这一切。
They ended up being really bad, and then that's what kicked everything off at that point.
那是在2011年，对。
And that was in 2011 Mhmm.
对我们来说。
For us.
所以，你们作为年纪稍大一些结婚的夫妻，你们非常主动。
So you you being a little bit of an older couple getting married later, you you were pretty much proactive.
如果你们年轻一些，那会怎样……
You know, if you were younger, what...
如果回头看，你会在什么时候做这种测试之类的事情？
When would you have done this kind of testing and stuff if you had looked back?
你觉得一个男人应该从什么时候开始考虑，比如讨论尝试多久之类的问题？
When do you think a guy should be starting to think about, you know, maybe discussing, you know, how long do you try and stuff like that?
这个问题问得好。
That's a good question.
如果我再年轻一些，我们可能会更久地尝试自然怀孕，我想。
You know, if I were younger, we probably would have tried naturally longer, I think.
而且我是以男性的身份进入这个过程的。
And, you know, I went into this process as a guy.
我，我不太……
You know, I I don't...
我有一个……
I have a...
我们在生育旅程中的角色其实挺简单的。
Our part in the fertility journey is kinda easy.
就像，我们只是其中很简单的一部分。
Like, we just have a a a simple part of it.
而且我觉得，对我来说，怀孕好像挺容易的。
And I thought, for me, like, it was easy to to get pregnant.
我从小就觉得，你看。
Like, I grew up thinking, look.
如果你要和别人发生关系，那对方怀孕的可能性就很大。
If you're gonna have sex with someone, there's a really good chance that they're gonna get pregnant.
所以一定要非常非常小心。
So be really, really careful about that.
但当我真正开始这个过程时，发现事实并非如此。
And that was inaccurate as I went into this process.
所以我学到了，哇。
So I learned, wow.
即使是在非常好的情况下，最好的条件下，也……
You know, even in really good cases in the best, you know, situations, it's...
还是可能会有点难。
Can still be kinda hard.
所以我觉得这算是……
So, you know, I think it was a...
我们很幸运，走了那些……
We we were fortunate that we went down those...
那条路，而且那些测试很快就做了。
That path and had those those tests done pretty quickly.
也就是说，我们没有等上一年或两年。
Meaning, we didn't wait two years or a year.
我们几个月内就完成了，结果帮助我们弄清楚了下一步该怎么做，最终让我们得到了想要的结果。
We we did it in a few months, and it ended up helping us figure out how to take next steps that that allowed us to have the outcome we did.
那么，当你发现你的精子数量低的时候，你当时情绪上有什么感受？
So then when you found out that your sperm count was low, what were you emotionally feeling at that point?
有没有觉得自己很失败？
Was there failure?
有没有失望？
Was there disappointment?
或者你当时脑子里在想什么？
Or what was going through your head there?
我……
I...
说实话，作为男人，我当时非常沮丧。
As a guy, I was pretty devastated, to be honest with you.
我当时想……
I thought...
我一直觉得这就像一种超能力，必须极其负责任地使用。
You know, I always think of it, like, as a superpower that you have to use with extreme responsibility.
我就想，好吧。
I'm like, alright.
是时候了。
It's time.
我一直在想这件事，从我还在……的时候就开始想了。
I've been thinking about this since I was, you know, at...
当你还是青少年，长大一点，了解了生殖过程，你会想，哦，这挺容易发生的……
You know, when you're a teenager and you grow up and you learn about, you know, the reproductive process and you think, oh, it can happen quite use...
很容易，然后你发现，其实不一定非得这样……
Easily, and then you learn that, you know, it it it it doesn't necessarily, have to...
有时候并不是那样发生的。
It doesn't happen that way sometimes.
有时候这可能是个挑战。
You know, it it it can be a challenge.
所以我觉得这有点像一种超能力。
So I thought it was kind of a superpower.
我就想，好吧。
I'm like, alright.
我准备好要组建家庭了。
I'm ready to have a family.
我准备好要孩子了。
I'm ready to start having kids.
结果呢。
And boom.
现在却不行了。
Now I'm not able to.
所以这对我来说挺难受的。
So it was it was pretty hard for me.
所以我觉得作为男人，你会立刻进入解决问题的模式。
So I I think as a guy, you immediately go into fixed mode.
就像，我怎么解决这个问题？
Like, how can I fix this?
我能做些什么？
What can I do?
就像，好吧。
Like, alright.
所以那就是那个……
So that's where the the...
这个过程……
This process...
我觉得作为男人，你会立刻进入解决问题的模式，然后你只是在听。
You know, I think as a guy, you go into fixed mode, and you're just listening.
比如，我有哪些选择？
Like, what are my options?
怎么能……
How can...
我该怎么做？
What do I do?
哪里……
Where...
我什么时候可以开始？
When can I start?
我大概就是这么理解的。
And that's kinda how I I took it.
不过，是的，那对我来说真的很难。
But, yeah, it was it was really hard for me.
这确实非常令人崩溃，我想这大概就是主要的信息。
It's super devastating, and I guess it's kinda the main message there.
所以，然后，精子数量低。
So then so then sperm count low.
你花了多长时间才恢复？
How long did it take you to recover?
然后你什么时候准备好……
And then when were you ready to...
对你来说，下一步的评估是什么？
What was the next steps for you in terms of evaluation?
你妻子也做了评估，还是我们……
Did your wife go through an evaluation, or did we get...
你接下来的步骤是什么？
You know, what was the next steps for you?
如果我没记错的话，这要追溯到2011年。
If I remember correctly, this is going back to 2011.
我们当时就知道……
We we we knew that...
好的。
Alright.
我们打算走试管婴儿这条路。
We're gonna go down the IVF path.
我们开始了，而且我们知道……
And we started that, and we knew that, you know, it was...
我是那个因素……
I was the, you know, the factor...
主要因素，因为我的精子数量低。
The main factor here with my accounts being low.
所以我们想，看看我们能做些什么。
So we thought, let's let's see what we can do.
然后……
And, you know, that...
我们在那里做了一个周期，幸运的是，成功率非常低。
We did one one cycle there, and, fortunately, like, the the percentages were extremely low.
比如，一个试管婴儿周期？
Like, an IVF cycle?
在那里做的一个试管婴儿周期？
An IVF cycle there?
是的。
Yep.
那个试管婴儿周期，他们说成功率会……
The IVF cycle, they were saying, you know, it's it's gonna be...
它……
It...
可能性不大。
It's unlikely.
所以我们当时真的不知道会怎样，但很幸运，那个周期居然成功了。
And so we really didn't know what to expect, but we were fortunate enough to have that cycle actually work.
就这样，我们开始了第一个孩子安妮的旅程，她出生于2012年。
And that's what started the journey with our first child, Annie, who was born in 2012.
所以大概花了三四个月吧，如果我没记错的话，我们经历了那个过程。
So it was about, I don't know, maybe maybe three or four months, if I remember correctly, as we went through that process.
然后我的妻子妮可成功怀孕了，这就是我们旅程的开始。
And then Nicole, my wife, was able to get pregnant, and that's what started our journey.
但我们真的很幸运。
But we were very fortunate.
但刚开始的时候，我心里想，我知道这是我的问题。
But going into it, I was like, I I know it's my fault.
我……
I'm...
而且没有帮助的话，我根本没办法提高我的数量，所以我当时真的不知道该怎么办。
And there's nothing I can do to to raise my my accounts without some help, and so I I really didn't know what to do.
所以听到这个消息时我非常沮丧，但也很高兴，哇，一个周期后我们就能有好的结果。
So I was, you know, I was pretty devastated about the news, but happy that, wow, we were able to, you know, have a good outcome after one cycle.
对。
So Mhmm.
这是一个非常……
It's a very...
这是一段充满各种情绪的旅程，起起伏伏。
It's a journey of, like, emotions, and it was up and down.
太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
所以一开始，精子数量低。
So so in the beginning, sperm count low.
当时你有哪些选择呢？
What were what were the kind of options that you...
当时医生跟你讨论过哪些选项？
That were that were discussed with you in regards...
所以你们最终还是做了IVF，但当时还有没有其他选择被提出来过？
So you you did an IVF cycle eventually, but was there any other options there available to you that were discussed with you?
那你们为什么选择不做或者做那些选项呢？
And and why did you choose not to do or do them?
当时是什么...
What was the...
你还记得那些副作用吗？你们俩当时做决定的时候，主要考虑了哪些因素？
What you remember the side effects, and what what went into that decision for for both of you?
我知道根据那些因素，其实还有其他选择。
I know that there were other options out there based on what the factors were.
但问题出在我这边，精子数量特别低，所以关键就是能不能从男方这边拿到足够的东西来开始这个过程。
And because it was me and the counts were super low, it was, can we get what we need from the male side to start this process?
而那种可能性其实挺低的。
And the the chances of that were pretty low.
活力……
Motility...
如果我术语说错了，请纠正我，但就是，活力……
Correct me if I'm getting my terms wrong, but, like, the motility...
数量低，活力也低。
The counts were low and motility was low.
对，是的。
So Yep.
他们就说，我们觉得能找到一些能用的，然后看看结果如何。
You know, they were like, we think we can find a few that will work, and let's see what happens.
然后你就开始了解这个过程。
And then you start to learn about this process.
就像，好吧。
It's like, okay.
那个男的……
The guy...
我提供精子参与这个过程，但我妻子会怎么样呢？
You know, I'm supplying the sperm to this process, but then what's gonna happen with my wife?
比如，我妻子要经历这个过程，她可能会有问题。
Like, my wife is gonna go through this, and, you know, she might have issues.
也许她那边有问题。
Maybe there's problems over there.
幸运的是，她那边没有大问题。
Fortunately for us, there were no major issues on her end.
她能够产出卵子，一切正常。
She was able to produce eggs and everything.
所以那时我们就想，好吧。
And so at that point, we were like, alright.
我们试试吧。
Let's give it a try.
我记得没错的话，那次我们得到了两个好的胚胎，是的。
And I I think if I remember correctly, we had, like, two two good embryos that resulted from that, and Yep.
就这些了。
That was it.
然后我们就想，好吧。
And we were like, alright.
看看会发生什么。
Let's see what happens.
你当时精子数量很低，医生有没有讨论过什么药物？
Were there any medications discussed with the very low sperm count that you had?
有没有提到过睾酮之类的，或者精子提取，就是那种从睾丸里取出精子的手术？
Was there testosterone or any of those type of things or a sperm aspiration, a surgery where they removed the the the sperm from your from your testicle.
有没有讨论过这些？
Was there any discussion regarding that?
有。
Yes.
我们确实……
We did...
他们当时说，嘿。
They they they talked about, hey.
咱们先试一个周期看看结果如何。
Let's let's do a cycle and see what happens.
如果不行，还有其他的办法。
And if not, if that doesn't work, there are these other things.
说实话。
I'll be honest.
我当时想，那听起来很疼，也不太好玩。
The the thought of that was like, oh, that sounds painful and not very fun.
但我觉得，不管需要做什么都行。
But I was like, you know, whatever we need to do.
所以我们开始的时候就知道，如果这个不行，你可以用睾丸激素来提高我的数量，或者我可以做那个手术，那也是另一个很好的选择。
So we went into it knowing that if this doesn't work, you could take testosterone and get my my my my counts up that way, or I could have that surgery, which would be another really good option.
所以基本上就是，先走常规路线。
So it was basically, let's go down the normal path first.
如果那不行，这里还有两三个选择。
And if that doesn't work, here's two or three options.
可以服用一些药物来帮助你的T细胞数量上升，或者你可以选择手术。
You know, take some take some medicine to help your t counts get up or you could have the surgery.
但咱们先走常规路线，看看是否有效，然后再做决定。
But let's go down the normal path first, see if it works, and then go from there.
睾酮不一定是好主意，但主要是克罗米芬，还有这种药物，以及HCG是其他药物。
Testosterone, not necessarily a good idea, but mostly Clomid and there's this drug and then HCG are the other drugs.
睾酮，顺便告诉听众，实际上会抑制精子收集。
Testosterone, just to let the audience know, actually suppresses sperm collection.
所以克罗米芬和那类药物是那里的选择。
So Clomid and those type of drugs are are the option there.
你说得对。
And you're right.
那是……
That's...
跟你说一下，我当年就是用的这个。
Just so you know, that's that's what I took.
就是克罗米芬。
It was Clomid.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Excellent.
很好。
Excellent.
就是澄清一下。
Just to clarify that.
但是……
But...
所以我……
So I...
所以你娶了一位非常有名的医生，这个过程确实让人望而生畏。
So you're married to a really famous doctor there, and, you know, this is very daunting process.
你直接就跳进去了。
You just dove dove right in it.
你有没有觉得，你妻子是这个领域的专家，这对你情感上有什么影响吗？
Did did you feel that having your wife being an expert in this field actually made any difference for you emotionally or or or anything like that?
这真是巨大的……
It's such a huge...
我能想象你会有很大的内疚感，而她得承担大部分工作。
I can anticipate such a huge guilt trip on your part, and she's having to do most of the work.
你当时是什么感受？
What was what was that like for you?
问得好。
That's a great question.
我觉得我们很幸运，因为她了解这个过程，她知道……
I think we were fortunate that she understands the process, so she knew what's...
知道接下来会经历什么。
What to expect going into it.
但我觉得这并没有让事情变得更容易，也没有改变任何概率。
But I would say it didn't make it any easier for us, and it didn't change the percentages of anything.
就像，即使她是医生，是生育专家，完全了解这一切，过程还是那个过程。
Like, just because she's a doctor, a fertility doctor, and understands all of this, the process still is what it is.
而且我……
And I...
那是……
It was...
我是男方因素的那部分，所以这是我们开始这个过程中很重要的一部分，我们该如何开始？
I was the male factor part, and so, you know, that that that that was a big part of this was, you know, how how how do we begin this process?
然后当我们进入这个阶段，我能做些什么？
And then as we get into this, what what can I do?
然后怎么……
And then how...
她需要做什么？
What is she gonna have to do?
这时候你才真正开始明白，哇。
And that's where you really start to learn, like, wow.
就像你说的，女方这边的过程，真的挺复杂的。
To your point, the the female part of this is, like...
相当繁琐。
You know, it's pretty intensive.
比如要注射，还要掌握时机，早起，整天都得围着这些安排转。
Like, there's, you know, shots involved and the timing of things and, you know, you know, getting up and, like, really organizing your day around some of this stuff.
整个生活都会被打乱。
It kinda changes your whole life.
所以这对我们影响真的很大。
So it really had a huge impact on us.
压力特别大。
So there was a lot of pressure.
我当时就想，天哪，我希望这能成功，而且我觉得很内疚，因为我妻子正在经历这个过程。
I'm like, man, I I I hope this works, and I feel bad because my wife is going through this process.
我其实不用……
I don't really have...
我不用注射。
I don't have to take shots.
我什么都不用做。
I don't have to do anything.
一切都围绕她的周期、发生的事情和时间的安排。
It's all revolved around her cycle and what's happening and the timing of things.
所以需要大量的沟通和协调。
So there's a lot of communication and coordination.
所以，对我来说，我只是想确保我能在这方面支持她。
So, yeah, I, you know, I I think for me, I just wanted to make sure, you know, I'm supporting her in that.
但说实话，我真的觉得很内疚。
But, yeah, I feel pretty bad, to be honest.
我就想，天哪，我甚至都不……
I'm like, man, I'm not even...
我什么都做不了。
There's nothing I can do.
有时候真的觉得很无助。
Kinda felt helpless sometimes.
那你会不会觉得内疚……
So would would guilt be a a correct...
你心里有没有过这种想法？
I mean, that ever come across your mind?
就像，天哪。
Like, oh my god.
你知道吗？
You know?
她一直在努力，而我呢，却是这一切的根源。
She's doing all the work, and I'm here, the the cause of all this work.
什么……
What...
你是怎么做到的？
How did you manage that?
那对你来说一定非常痛苦。
I mean, that must have been terribly emotional for you.
有意思的是，当你经历这些的时候，你会开始明白……
It's it's interesting because when you go through this, you you start to understand...
我觉得女人和男人处理事情的方式显然大多不同。
I think women and men handle things differently, obviously, for the most part.
对我来说，我当时很挣扎，一直在想这件事，既担心又内疚，但我不一定总是表现出来。
And for me, you know, I was struggling, and I was thinking about it all the time, and I was worried and guilty about it, but I didn't necessarily always show it.
所以我妻子有点觉得，你是不是……
So my wife kinda felt like, are are...
你甚至在乎这件事吗？
You know, do you even care about this?
就像，你怎么会没有，呃，被这件事影响情绪呢？
Like, how how are you not, like, emotionally affected by this?
与此同时，她呢，情绪挺激动的，想得很多，也想聊聊这件事。
Meanwhile, she's, like, pretty emotional, thinking about it a lot, wanting to talk about it.
也许她……
Maybe she...
那个那个那个……
You know, the the the the...
也许她无缘无故就哭起来了。
You know, maybe she's crying out of nowhere for whatever reason.
而你是丈夫。
And you're you're the husband.
你会说，怎么了宝贝，出什么事了？
You're like, you know, what's babe, what's wrong?
我能帮什么忙？
How can I help?
你知道吗？
You know?
就是……
There's...
情感上的部分确实是个挑战。
The the the emotional part of it is is definitely a challenge.
所以……
So that...
其中一件事就是……
You know, one of the things that...
这个过程中真正让我们更亲近的，首先是了解这段旅程到底是什么样的。
It really brought us closer together as a part of this process was, like, you know, first off, understanding what this journey really looks like.
这确实挺……
It's it's pretty...
但怀孕真是个不可思议的奇迹。
But it's amazing miracle to get pregnant.
这个过程真的很神奇，而且了解了女性这边的经历后，我真的对我妻子在整个过程中的坚强和她克服困难的能力产生了深深的敬佩。
And this process is pretty amazing, and, understanding the female part of it, I really I grew an appreciation for this whole process with my wife and how strong she was and her ability to get through things.
这真的让我处于...
And it really put me on...
我需要保持专注，然后想，好吧。
You know, I needed to be on point and just think about, alright.
我散发出来的是什么？
What am I emanating?
我有没有问对问题？
Am I am I asking the right questions?
我有没有让她看到，是的，我关心她，还是我是怎么做到的？
Am I showing her that, yes, I care, or how am I doing that?
但我们经常有这样的对话，她说，宝贝，你甚至不...
But we often have these conversations where she say, babe, you don't even...
看起来你好像根本不在乎。
Doesn't seem like you even care.
比如说，你到底关不关心？
Like, do you even care?
就好像，你看起来一点情绪都没有？
Like, you don't seem emotional or anything?
然后我就说，是的。
And I'm like, yeah.
我确实关心。
I am.
可能我只是处理事情的方式和她不太一样。
I mean, maybe I just process things a little differently than she does.
所以那就会表现出来。
And so that's gonna come out.
我想对任何正在经历这个过程的人说，要知道……
I would say anyone on the journey just know...
根据你所处的具体情况，你的伴侣会有不同的方式来应对这件事。
You know, depending on, you know, the the the situation you're in, your partner is gonna have a different mechanism for for going through this.
只要意识到这一点，并且留意它，因为每个人的情况都不一样。
And just be aware of that and be cognizant of it because it's it's different for everybody.
丹，我觉得你提出的这一点非常好。
I think that's a great point that you bring up, Dan.
确实，怨恨这个词经常被提到。
Certainly, resentment is a term that comes up a lot.
而且谢天谢地，你和妮可最终成功了。
And, you know, thank god it worked out for you and Nicole.
你们变得更坚强了。
You became stronger together.
但是，当然，有没有遇到过挑战呢？
But, certainly, was there challenges?
不是要太过透明地谈论你们的互动……
Not to get too too transparent about your your interact...
有没有遇到过挑战，那种怨恨？
Was there challenges, that resentment?
这种情绪有没有积累过？
Did that ever build up?
男性和女性处理压力的方式很不一样。
You know, guys and male and females, they process stress very differently.
对。
And Mhmm.
我得说，大多数女性显然非常情绪化。
I would tell you, most females are obviously very emotional.
你懂的……
You don't...
我们都知道这一点。
You know, we all know this.
而男性呢，可以说是所谓的“沉默的伙伴”，他们处理事情的方式不同。
And and men are are, like, quote, unquote, the silent partner, and and they process.
这并不意味着他们关心得少。
And it's not that they don't care any less.
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我觉得他们只是处理压力的方式很不一样。
I think they just process the stress very differently.
你觉得呢？
I mean, what do you think of of that?
你和妮可在一起的时候，是不是也出现过那种情况，就是有时候会有怨恨，然后你们会互相发泄？
Was that something that that came up in your in your partnership with Nicole that there was resentment sometimes and you would lash out at each other?
这是常见的事情吗？
Is that a common thing?
嗯，我觉得她可能会怨恨我，因为那都是我的错。
Well, I I felt like she might resent me because it was my fault.
所以回到你之前说的，就是内疚那部分，绝对是的。
So going back to what you said earlier, like, guilt part, absolutely.
而且作为男人，对我来说最难的是，我没办法解决这个问题。
And and what's really hard as a guy for me was like, I can't fix this.
比如，我没办法更努力地工作。
Like, I can't work harder.
我未必能去做点什么。
I can't go do something necessarily.
我可以接受……
I can take...
所以在这种情况下，在安妮出生前，我并没有服用克罗米芬，那是我们的第一个孩子。
So in this case, I didn't take any, Clomid before Annie was born, our first child.
但安妮出生后，当我们准备要第二个孩子时，我不得不服用克罗米芬。
But after Annie was born and we were ready to have a second child, I had to take, you know, the the Clomid.
所以现在我就想，好吧。
So now I was like, okay.
拜托一定要有效。
Please work.
所以现在压力更大了。
So now there's more pressure there.
所以我就想，好吧。
So I'm, like, I'm like, okay.
虽然我没做什么，但至少还有件事可以做。
There's something that I can do even though I'm not doing anything.
我就是在吃药。
I'm just taking the medicine.
看看会发生什么。
See what happens.
但是，对。
But Yeah.
我就想，好吧。
You know, I'm like, okay.
我希望这能有用，因为如果不行，那就会像……
I hope this works because if not, it's gonna be like...
又是我不好。
Again, it's my fault.
责任在我身上。
It's on my shoulder.
所以我担心的是，我不想让她怨恨我，但我想说，有……
So my worry was I didn't want her to resent me, but I would say, you know, having...
回头想想，我觉得如果我能时不时地让她知道，嘿，那就更好了。
Looking back on this, think I it would have been better if I would've just just once in a while let her know, hey.
我，我感到内疚。
I I am feeling guilty.
在某些情况下，我对这里发生的事情感到有点羞愧，对不起。
I am feeling a little bit, you know, ashamed in some cases about what's happening here, and I'm sorry.
但你要知道，我爱你，我在这里支持你。
But just know that I love you, and I'm, you know, I'm I'm I'm here to support you.
我只希望你知道我在乎。
And, you know, I just hope you know that I care.
而且，是的，我可能不是一直表现出来。
And, yeah, I might not show it all the time.
我可能……
You know, I might...
对我来说，就像，我确实……
You know, for me, it was like, I do...
我去锻炼。
I go work out.
我做别的事情。
I do other stuff.
你可能听不到我说出来。
You might not hear it coming out of my mouth.
但我……
But I...
如果我能重新来过，我……
You know, if I had to go back and do it again, I...
那……
That...
那是我们学到的东西，我们……
That's something that I think we learned is we...
作为男人，我需要让她知道我的感受，这样她至少能明白，是的，我确实和她感同身受，而且说实话，我们应该更多地谈谈这件事。
As a guy, I need to let her know what I'm feeling so that she can at least know that, yes, I am feeling what she's feeling, and we should probably talk about it a lot more, to be honest.
但当你正在经历的时候，这很难，因为你不知道。
But, you know, it's hard when you're going through it because you don't know.
你对整个过程还不熟悉。
You're new to the whole process.
我觉得这点说得很好。
I think that's a great point.
对男性伴侣来说，向他们的伴侣传达“我在乎”确实是个挑战，因为这真的很难。
You know, it's a challenge for the male partner to communicate to their to their partner that, you know, I care and stuff because it's just very difficult.
我们会消化情绪。
We we process.
我们会躲进自己的小空间。
We go to our man cave.
我们会去锻炼。
We work out.
我们做我们该做的事来应对压力。
We do whatever we do to to deal with the stress.
而且我觉得丹，你向我们的听众提出这一点真的很好，因为有时候你并不……
And I think it's a really good point for you, Dan, to bring that up to our audience that, at times, you don't...
他们不需要太多互动。
They don't need a lot of interaction.
他们有时候只需要那种积极的，亲爱的，我……我……我……
They just need at times, you know, that that positive, hon, I I I...
我在处理这件事。
I'm dealing with this.
我和你一样有压力，而且我关心你。
I'm stressed just as much as you are, and I care about you.
我爱你。
I love you.
而这些表达是……
And those expressions are...
对伴侣来说意义重大。
Mean the world to the partner.
我觉得这也是……
And I think that's part of...
还有，你……
Also, you you...
听起来你……
It sounds like you...
如果当时你能做一件事，如果重来一次，那件事可能会帮你减轻很多压力。
If you had take one thing to do, if you had done it again, that would have probably helped you to kinda relieve a lot of your stress.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我其实没有人可以倾诉，因为说实话，我不想让任何人知道。
I mean, I had no one to really talk to because quite frankly, I didn't want anyone to know.
你懂吗？
You know?
我当时就想，
I'm like
嘿，
Hey.
我遇到了生育方面的问题。
I'm having fertility issues.
我们能聊聊这个吗？
Can we talk about this?
这种事我真的不会随便跟任何人提，哪怕是父母也一样。
Like, that's not really something I'm gonna bring up to anyone, even, like, my parents.
你知道吗？
You know?
我当时就想，我甚至都不想跟任何人说这件事。
I was like, I don't even wanna talk about it to anybody.
所以，是的，就是这样……
So, yes, that's...
你说得完全对。
You're absolutely right.
你知道吗？
You know?
我觉得我学到的是，有很多很多人都在经历这个，比你意识到的要多得多。
I think what I learned, there's a lot there's a lot more people going through this than what you realize.
所以，是的，主动联系别人，和别人建立联系。
And so, yeah, reaching out and, you know, connecting with someone.
像这样的播客，或者任何类似的东西，听听别人的经历和旅程，我觉得那很有帮助。
You know, podcasts like this or anything like, you know, consuming things, hearing from other people, their journeys, I think that's helpful.
但归根结底，你说得对。
But in the end, you're right.
你需要能够和你的伴侣表达你的感受。
You need to be able to express what you're feeling with your partner.
你觉得，是不是……
Do do you think that ex...
寻求心理咨询不是男人的天性，但你觉得如果一路走来有这种帮助会不会有用，还是说这大概就是……
I mean, it's not in a guy's, you know, DNA to start seeking counseling, but do you think that would have helped along the way, or it's, you know, something that's probably just...
这就是我们。
This is who we are.
这就是男性旅程的一面。
This is the male side of the journey.
你觉得那会有帮助吗？
Do you think that would have helped at all?
问得好。
That's a great question.
我，我不知道。
I I don't know.
可能……
Prob...
可能，可能会有帮助。
It it probably would have.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得现在经历过之后，回头想想，确实是这样。
I think now that I've been through it, I can go back and say, yeah.
这……
This is...
这大概会有帮助。
This would have probably helped.
但话说回来，我当时处于那种男性解决问题的模式，所以几乎就像……
But, again, I was in guy fix it mode, so it was almost like...
这听起来有点矛盾。
It it sounds counterintuitive.
我们就像，我处于解决问题模式，但我不想去咨询。
We're like, I'm in fix it mode, but I I don't wanna go over to counseling.
那其实可能正是你应该做的，找个方式把情绪释放出来。
That's actually maybe what you should do and just have a way to get it out.
因为再说一次，我们的旅程，我们很幸运。
Because, again, our journey, we were fortunate.
我们……
We...
我们的试管婴儿周期，第一次和第二次都成功了。
Our IVF cycle, the first and the second one worked.
但是中间有一段时间，我们一直在做各种测试，可能有些环节没成功，我们试图达到能够拥有胚胎的阶段，但有些事可能没成。
But, you know, but there was a time lapse there where, you know, we were going through some tests and maybe a few things didn't work in between that we were trying to get to the point of, you know, being able to have an embryo and everything that maybe didn't work out.
所以那段时间很长。
And so there's a lot of time there.
所以你需要意识到时间的重要性。
So you just need to be cognizant of the time.
而且时间拖得越长，你越不会真正意识到，但你会……
And, you know, the longer that goes, you don't really realize it, but you...
你正在经历你的生育之旅。
You're going through your fertility journey.
你还是要上班的。
You're still going to work.
工作上的压力还是会有。
You still have work stress.
家庭压力或者生活中其他事情的压力也依然存在。
You still have family stress or whatever else is going on in your life.
这只是雪上加霜。
This just adds to that.
所以你要意识到，这将会……
So just be aware that this is gonna...
这是新情况，对你和你的伴侣来说都会很艰难。
You know, this is new, and it's gonna be hard for both you and your partner.
所以要多沟通。
So, you know, talk about it.
你明白吗？
You know?
如果……
If...
哪怕一周一次，只要聊聊这件事，我觉得肯定会有帮助。
Even if it's once a week, just talk about it, and I think that'll help for sure.
我觉得这点说得很好。
I think that's a good point.
夫妻……
Couple...
在我们结束之前，我还想提一下，很多男性都会遇到一些痛点。
I just wanted to bring up as we finish off here, but a couple pain points that a lot of men kinda struggle with.
比如精子分析，那个……
The sperm analysis, that...
那个真的挺难的。
You know, that's a tough that's a tough gig.
你能尽量坦诚地讲讲那个过程吗？
Can you can you be as transparent as you can be about that process?
是不是……
Did it...
会不会害怕？
Was it scary?
会不会尴尬？
Was it embarrassing?
你能不能就讲讲那个测试本身？过程中有什么挑战，哪些地方出了问题，哪些地方还挺顺利的？
Can can you just tell tell about the the test itself and and what were the challenges there and and what went wrong and what went right on that?
我猜这个过程肯定不是完美的。
I'm sure it's not a perfect process.
我……
I I...
说实话吧。
I'm not gonna lie.
第一次去提供样本的时候，我心里就想，我这是在干嘛呢？
The first time I had to go and give a sample, I was like, what am I doing?
就像，什么……
Like, what...
这怎么能行得通呢？
How is this gonna work?
你知道吗？
You know?
因为现在你做的事情，本来可能是私下里做的，现在却成了流程的一部分，而且大家都知道你在做什么。
Because now you're taking something that you you might do in private, and now you're doing it as a part of a process, and everyone knows what you're doing.
这就有压力了，而且作为男人，这种事我平时闭着眼睛都能做。
And there's pressure there, and, you know, it's something that, as a guy, I could easily do in my sleep.
你知道吗？
You know?
我觉得这事对我来说超级简单，但现在实际上有点难。
Like, I feel like it's it's super easy for me to do this, but now it's it's actually kinda hard.
我就觉得，压力来了。
I'm like, the pressure's on.
就是说，我得拿出成果来。
Like, I need to produce.
这不光是我自己的事。
This isn't just about me.
这关系到，嗯，最后会出什么结果？
This is about, okay, what's gonna what's gonna result from this?
结果够不够好？
And is it gonna be good enough?
能不能让我们继续往前走？
And is it gonna allow us to move forward?
如果不行，我还得回来多做几次样本。
And if not, I had to come back and do multiple, you know, samples.
所以不是一两次就完了。
So it wasn't once or twice.
大概得做三四次，每次都挺尴尬、挺别扭的。
It was, like, three or four times I had to do it, and it was awkward and weird.
说实话。
I'm not gonna lie.
你知道吗？
You know?
这真的不是一件自然的事。
It's it's not a natural thing to have to do.
所以这有点伤我的自尊。
So, you know, it was a kind of a hit to my pride.
我就想，天哪，这又是我的错。
I'm like, man, this is my fault again.
我又来了。
Here I am.
就像……
Like...
现在我还得拿出成果来。
And now I have to produce.
所以这……
So it...
压力就在这里。
There's pressure there.
这几乎就像比赛日一样。
It's almost like, it's game day.
你在这整个过程中的部分就在今天发生，而且必须做好，否则一切都不会顺利。
Your part of this process happens today, and it better be good because otherwise, nothing's gonna work.
我就想，天哪，这压力真大。
And I'm like, man, this is a lot of pressure.
所以，你本来就已经有的那些情绪，再加上精子采集这件事本身，就更重了。
So So then all those all those emotions that you're that you're feeling anyways are then compounded by the sperm collection itself.
没错。
Exactly.
你得去完成那件事，如果你愿意这么说的话，而且你处在一个……
I mean, you've gotta go and, you know, finish the the deed, if you will, and you're in a...
你就在一个……
You know, you're you're in a...
你不在自己的卧室里。
You're not in your bedroom.
你也不在自己家里。
You're not in your house.
感觉就是不一样。
It's just different.
所以，是的，这确实……
And so, yeah, it's it's it's definitely
有点尴尬。
It's little awkward.
有点挑战性。
It's a little challenge.
但是……
But...
然后呢……
And then did...
从患者的角度来看，有没有人和你讨论过人工授精或IUI治疗？还是说你的精子根本不符合条件？
Was artificial insemination, IUI treatment, was that ever discussed with you from a patient standpoint, or was your sperm just not not a candidate?
有没有人告诉你一些标准，说明为什么你的情况不适合？
Were you told some criteria as to why that wasn't your situation?
为什么这在医学上不被推荐？
Why wasn't that medically indicated?
我们确实讨论过这个。
We did talk about that.
我不记得为什么我们没走那条路。
I can't remember why we didn't go down that path.
我隐约记得是因为我的精子数量太低了。
I I vaguely remember it being because of my accounts being so low.
我觉得那就是原因，但我们确实讨论过，然后很快就把它排除了。
I think that was the reason why, but we did discuss that and quickly took it off the table.
所以有一个……
So there was a...
一般来说，至少要有五百万到一千万个精子，人工授精才可能有实际效果。
There's a criteria generally around five to 10,000,000 sperm to even make artificial inseminations a practical outcome for you.
而且就算这样，跟人工授精相比，试管婴儿的成功率和活产率都高得多。
And even then, you know, when you compare IVF with this artificial inseminations, this chance of success and live birth rates are so much more successful for IVF.
不是说试管婴儿适用于所有情况，但通常来说，精子数量是关键。
Not that IVF is applicable in every single scenario, but usually, the sperm counts.
然后妮可当时……
And then and then Nicole was...
她那边的情况都挺好的。
She was good on her end.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
她所有的指标都很好。
All her numbers.
那可能是……
That that could be...
如果你每毫升至少有五百万到一千万个精子，而且女方年龄合适、各项指标都正常，那么人工授精还是可以发挥作用的。
You know, if you have a minimum of five to 10,000,000 sperm per per cc, and then the woman's, you know, of a reasonable age and numbers are good, artificial inseminations can play a role.
说实话吧。
So I'm gonna be honest.
这……这也是男方这边让我觉得特别难的一个因素。
This this is another factor for the male side that made it really hard for me.
我习惯把事情看成是比分牌。
So, you know, I think about things as a scoreboard.
我是在赢还是在输，有时候我会这样想。
Am I winning or am I losing sometimes?
所以我们就在考虑各种因素。
And so we're we're thinking through factors.
比如，这是你有的选择。
Like, here's the options you have.
好吧，这里有一个可能很不错的选择，但你猜怎么着？
Well, here's one option that might be pretty good, but guess what?
你的精子数量太低了。
Your accounts are so low.
我们连这个都做不了。
We can't even do that.
我当时就想，天哪。
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
你是认真的吗？
Are you serious?
所以这确实增加了压力，也带来了一些内疚感。
So it it added to the pressure and kind of the, you know, the guilt.
然后另一方面，妮可的状态非常好。
And then on the other end of it, you know, Nicole is is is is in a really good place.
比如，她生育能力很强，我想。
Like, she's very fertile, I guess.
所以，我就到了这个地步。
And so here I am.
现在，一切都落在我身上了。
Now it's it's all on me.
所以，是的，这……
So, yeah, it...
这又增加了一层压力，我得说，这让事情变得更有挑战性。
That that added to another layer of pressure, I would say, that made it made it a challenge.
你宁愿妮可也有一些问题吗？
Would would you have rather had Nicole have some issues?
那样会有所帮助，还是会让问题变得更复杂？
Would that have helped a bit, or would that have compounded the issue?
你知道吗？
You know what?
考虑到我们真的很幸运，有两个好的结果，还有两个漂亮的孩子，我会说不会。
Being that we were really fortunate to have two good outcomes and we have two beautiful children, I would say no.
我绝不会希望那样。
I would never want it.
因为我觉得，说实话，虽然对我来说真的很难，但我的过程其实挺简单的。
Because I think, to be honest, even though it was really hard for me, my process is actually pretty simple.
我觉得在我脑子里，就像是，我需要……
I think in my mind, it's like, I I need to...
我在产生精子。
You know, I'm producing sperm.
它需要是可行的。
It needs to be modal.
这是数量。
Here's the counts.
但如果是女方的问题，那就……
But with female factor, it's...
涉及的因素就多多了。
There's a lot more at play.
有很多……
There's a lot...
更难。
It's harder.
而且我有朋友和家人经历过这个，有很多因素可能影响结果。
And I've had friends and family who've went through that, and, you know, there's a lot of factors that go into that that could be playing into the outcome.
在女方这边，确实更难。
And on the female side, it's it's harder.
所以我觉得这会给她和整个过程增加压力。
And so I think that would add to the stress for her and the process.
所以其实……
So I'm actually...
回想起来，我很庆幸是我这边的问题，而且我们很幸运有两次好的结果。
In retrospect, I'm glad it was me, and we were fortunate to have two good outcomes.
所以……
So...
嗯，这个观点挺有意思的。
Well, that's an interesting perspective.
谢谢，谢谢。
Thank thank you.
那么……
Where...
在我们结束之前，丹，你有没有……
As we finish up here, Dan, do you...
有没有什么我本应该问的，而你想对我们的听众说的？他们正在处理不孕不育的问题，无论是男性还是其他因素。
Is there anything that I should have asked that you wanted to communicate to our audience who are dealing with the infertility issue, whether it's male or or or not factors?
还有没有其他你想建议的，作为……
Is there anything else that you would wanna advise being being...
作为经历过这件事的人？
Having gone through it?
嗯，我觉得这件事的另一方是……
Well, I think the other partner in this is...
我们还没谈到的是你的医生。
That we haven't talked about is your doctor.
这一点我从两个角度了解，我妻子是医生，但我们也曾有自己的生育医生。
And I know this from two angles, my wife being the doctor, but understanding that we had our own fertility doctor.
不是妮可。
It wasn't Nicole.
所以通常有三个人参与，或者是一对夫妇加上你们的医生。
So there's really three people involved typically or, you know, there's a couple and then your doctor.
所以要知道，我想我要说的是，你们是一起面对这个的。从我自己的经历，以及妮可和她的诊所对病人的深切关怀来看，我可以告诉你，很多在这个领域工作的医生都在努力帮助家庭获得好的结果，这很不容易。
So just know, I think one of the things that I would say is that you're all in this together, and I can tell you, you know, from my experience with Nicole and her practice and her deep care for for her patients that a lot of the doctors who are working in this field are are working really hard to help families have good outcomes, and it's hard.
数字是……
The the numbers are...
这不是保证。
You know, it's not a guarantee.
有些人想知道，会不会发生？
Some people wanna know, is it, you know, is it gonna happen?
是或不是。
Yes or no.
这不是非黑即白的。
It's not binary.
所以要知道，你的医生在非常努力地工作，你们是一个团队。
So just know your doctor's working really hard, and you guys are a team.
而且这……
And it's...
有时候你会感到沮丧，可能不明白发生了什么，觉得需要更多答案，这会增加压力。
There's gonna be points where you're frustrated and maybe you don't understand what's happening and you feel like you need more answers, and that adds to the stress.
但我想说的是，在旅程中互相支持，每个人的旅程都有点不同。
But I would just say, you know, think about, you know, just supporting each other in the journey, and everyone's journey is a little different.
而且要知道，每个人……
And just know that everyone...
你的医生都希望你有好的结果。
You know, that your doctor wants a good outcome for you.
他们很关心这个过程，你要知道他们的初衷是好的，想帮助你，只是每个人在这方面的表现方式不太一样。
They care about this process and, you know, just, you know, know that they have the best intentions to help, and everyone's a little different in that regard.
作为一位同行医生，和Parker医生合作是一次非常棒的经历，谢谢你的这些评论。
Well, being a being a fellow physician and having the wonderful experience of working with doctor Parker, thank you for those comments.
我觉得我们都在同一个团队里。
I think we all are on the same team.
我觉得患者和医生，我们一起经历……
I think patients and doctors, we we go down...
和你们一起经历起起伏伏。
Ups and downs with you.
我们只是有时候因为太忙，表达方式不太一样。
We just, you know, again, express it in a very different fashion sometimes because we are so busy.
但是，Dan，谢谢你抽出时间。
But, Dan, thanks for your time.
我很感激你那些充满智慧的话。
I appreciate all your words of wisdom.
太好了。
It's great.
我希望，有……
I hope that, there's...
如果你说的这些话能改变一个人的生活，那我觉得我们就已经产生了巨大的影响。
If it's a difference in one person's life, what you've said, I think we've made a made a a huge impact.
谢谢你，丹。
Thank you, Dan.
不客气。
You're very welcome.
感谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
感谢收听《SART生育专家》，这是你获取试管婴儿信息的资源。
Thank you for listening to SART Fertility Experts, your resource for information on IVF.
如果你觉得这个播客有用，请在您最喜欢的社交媒体平台上给我们点赞，并告诉你的朋友们。
If you found this podcast useful, please like us on your favorite social media platform and tell your friends about us.
想了解更多关于组建家庭的信息，可以访问 www.sart.org/patientinformation 或 www.reproductivefacts.org。
For more family building resources, visit www.sart.org/patientinformation or www.reproductivefacts.org.
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