今年预计各州将出现更多“反科学”法案

你好。

Hi.

我是伊拉·弗拉托克，您正在收听《科学星期五》。

I'm Ira Flatow, and you're listening to Science Friday.

各州立法机构即将重新召开会议。

State legislatures are coming back into session.

随着会议召开，全国各地的立法者很可能会遇到反科学法案。

And as they convene, lawmakers across the country are likely to encounter anti science bills.

这些法案旨在取消对公共卫生问题的保护，比如疫苗、牛奶安全和氟化物。

That's legislation that seeks to remove protections around public health issues, like vaccines, milk safety, fluoride.

一项调查发现，去年全美共提出了420多项反科学法案。

An investigation found that last year, more than 420 anti science bills were introduced across the country.

那么，我们对即将到来的立法年有何期待？

So what can we expect for this upcoming legislative year?

现在加入我们的是来自肯塔基州路易斯维尔的美联社科学与医学记者劳拉·昂格。

Joining me now is Laura Unger, science and medical reporter for the Associated Press based in Louisville, Kentucky.

欢迎收听《科学星期五》。

Welcome to Science Friday.

非常感谢。

Thanks very much.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

让我们谈谈这个难以置信的、超过420项反科学法案的情况。

Let's talk about this hard to believe more than 420 anti science bills.

什么才算反科学法案？

What qualifies as an anti science bill?

我们主要关注了三个领域，正如你提到的：疫苗、牛奶安全和氟化物。

So we looked at three areas, as you mentioned, vaccines, milk safety, and fluoride.

我们选择这些领域是因为它们违背了经过科学验证的健康措施。

The reason we chose looking at those areas is because they go against scientifically proven health measures.

例如，专家指出，自20世纪70年代中期以来，全球疫苗接种计划已挽救了超过一亿五千万人的生命。

Like, for example, experts say that global vaccine efforts have saved more than a hundred fifty million lives, since the mid seventies.

自实施氟化以来，蛀牙率大幅下降，牛奶巴氏杀菌法也拯救了数百万人免受食源性疾病之苦。

Cavities have declined dramatically since fluoridation began, and milk pasteurization has saved millions from foodborne illness.

所以我们选择了这三个领域进行研究。

So that's why we chose those to look at.

你能给我举个例子，这些法案具体是什么样子的吗？

Can you give me an example of what what these bills looked like?

实际上，绝大多数都是反疫苗法案。

The the vast majority actually were anti vaccine bills.

我们采用了一套特定的方法来界定什么是反疫苗法案。

And we we had certain methodology that we used to to determine, you know, what we meant by that.

例如，那些让获取疫苗豁免更容易、对疫苗接种施加额外监管负担或繁文缛节、禁止某些类型疫苗（如新冠疫苗或mRNA疫苗）的法案。

So for example, bills that made it easier to get a vaccine exemption or placed additional regulatory burdens or red tape around vaccination, banned certain types of vaccines such as COVID nineteen vaccines or mRNA vaccines.

但还有各种各样的类型。

But there were all sorts.

它们试图以多种方式监管疫苗，有些甚至非常极端。

They they tried to regulate vaccines in many ways, and some were actually very extreme.

比如，有一项法案称mRNA疫苗是大规模杀伤性武器。

Like, for example, there's one that's called mRNA vaccines weapons of mass destruction, for example.

这确实相当极端。

That is that is pretty extreme.

在这些数百项法案中，大约有多少项最终通过了？

And out of these hundreds of bills, roughly how many actually got passed?

我们只知道在秋季新闻报道出来的时候。

So we only know kind of through when the story ran in the fall.

那时，已有大约30项法案在12个州通过或生效。

So at that point, it was about 30 had either been enacted or adopted in 12 states at that point.

这些州包括德克萨斯州、佛罗里达州、北达科他州、阿拉巴马州、蒙大拿州和阿肯色州等。

And these states included, among others, Texas, Florida, North Dakota, Alabama, Montana, and Arkansas.

是谁在推动这些法案？

And who's pushing these bills?

有几个团体在推动这些法案。

There were several groups that were pushing these bills.

因此，大多数通过的法案都得到了至少四个全国性组织的支持，这些组织都与罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 Jr. 有一定关联。

And so, like, most of the bills that were enacted were supported by at least one of four national groups, and these are groups that have some sort of connection to Robert F.

肯尼迪 Jr.，这位卫生部长。

Kennedy Jr, the health secretary.

这些组织包括 MAHA 行动、为健康自由而战、国家疫苗信息中心和韦斯顿·A.

And these groups were MAHA Action, Stand for Health Freedom, the National Vaccine Information Center, and the Weston A.

普莱斯基金会。

Price Foundation.

这些组织还反对数十项以科学为依据的法案，同时也

And the these groups also oppose dozens of science driven bills as well as

对。

Right.

支持那些反科学的法案。

Supporting the the, yeah, anti science bills.

你认为这些组织长期以来一直想推动这样的法律，只是现在因为 RFK Jr. 和特朗普，才终于觉得有了机会吗？

Do you think these groups have always wanted to push laws like this for a long time and now finally feel like they have an in due to RFK junior and Trump?

当然，其中一些组织与肯尼迪有着长期的关系。

Well, certainly, some of them have long standing relationships, with Kennedy.

这是一场有组织的行动。

So, and it is a well organized effort to do this.

而且有一个明确的策略，最终要在国家层面改变政策。

So and and there's a clear strategy to change policies ultimately at the national level.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你有没有发现，某个地区的法案推动比其他地区更积极？

Do you find out one part of the country was pushing more bills than another part?

当然，有些州在这些法案上特别突出。

Certainly, there were states that kind of stood out with a lot of these bills.

佛罗里达州就是其中之一。

Florida was one.

德克萨斯州也是另一个例子。

Texas, another one.

是的。

So yeah.

但这些法案在全美各地，无论是红州还是蓝州，都被广泛提出。

But they were really, across the board and in red and blue states as far as being introduced.

确实，很多州都提出了这些法案。

Really, a lot of states had these bills.

对。

Yeah.

正如你所说，反疫苗的立法比其他任何反科学议题都多。

And as you say, there are more anti vaxx legislation than any other anti science topic.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，在420多项法案中，至少有350项是反疫苗的。

So at least 350 were anti vaccine of the more than 420.

这太惊人了。

That is amazing.

嗯，新的一年到了。

Well, it it's a new year.

我们正进入新的立法会期。

We're entering new legislative sessions.

你接下来会关注什么？

What will you be keeping your eye on?

当然，我们继续关注这些相同领域。

Well, certainly, we're continuing to look at, these same areas.

所以我们会密切关注哪些法案出台。

So we will just keep our eyes on what bills are coming out.

而且，今年已经有一些法案被提出了。

And, there are some that have already been introduced this year.

例如，在我所在的肯塔基州，本月提出了一项法案，将饮用水加氟计划变为可选项目。

So for example, in Kentucky where I am based, there was a bill introduced this month to make water fluoridation programs optional.

而在紧邻我所在州的印第安纳州，有一项法案要求卫生部门建立一个类似于联邦系统的州级疫苗不良事件报告系统。

And then in Indiana, next state over from where I am, there's a bill to require the health department to establish a state version of the adverse event reporting system for vaccines, kind of like the federal one, except on a state level.

所以这些只是其中几个例子。

So those are just a couple.

但毫无疑问，这些主题都是相同的。

But certainly, the themes are the same.

而且你也能看到在国家层面出现许多变化，例如，针对儿童疫苗的新联邦法规将普遍推荐的疫苗数量减少到11种。

And you're also seeing a lot of changes at the national level as well with, for example, new federal regulations around childhood vaccines, cutting the number of universally recommended vaccines to 11.

而去年这个时候，这个数字还是18种。

And that was at at this time last year, was 18.

所以，你可以看到这些趋势在联邦和州两个层面都在发生。

So, you know, you can see some of these themes happening both at the federal and the state level.

劳拉，有没有办法评估这些法案对人类造成的代价？

Laura, is there any way to judge the human cost of these bills?

有。

Yes.

因此，这些法案背后的反科学情绪正在造成影响。

So the sentiment behind these bills, the rising anti science sentiment, is already taking a toll.

我们为这个故事采访的一个家庭，去年失去了他们八岁的儿子，死于一种本可预防的疫苗疾病。

One of the families we talked to for this story lost their eight year old son to a vaccine preventable disease last year.

他确实接种过疫苗，但遗憾的是，他的父母说疫苗没能保护他，因为要让疫苗有效，其他孩子和成年人也必须接种。

He had been vaccinated, but unfortunately, his parents said it didn't protect him because other kids, other adults need to be vaccinated as well for it to work.

在全国许多地区，至少对于某种特定疾病来说，尚未达到维持整个社区安全所需的群体免疫水平。

And there are many parts of the country where, at least for a particular disease, there is not the herd immunity that you need to keep a whole community safe.

听到这些真的让人很难过。

That is so sad to hear.

既然有这么多法案，如果人们对此感到担忧，有没有办法关注他们所在州的立法动态？

Since there are so many, are are there ways for people to keep an eye on the legislation in their states if they're concerned about this?

比如有没有什么网站可以查看？

Maybe a website or something?

任何人都可以访问本州的立法网站，查看已提交的法案，并通过这种方式跟踪它们的进展。

Anyone can go into a legislative website for their state and look at the bills that have been introduced and should be able to kind of follow them along that way.

谢谢您今天抽出时间参与我们的节目。

Well, I wanna thank you for taking time to be with us today.

这确实是非常有趣的内容。

This is certainly interesting stuff.

不客气。

Oh, you're welcome.

我们会和您一起关注此事。

We'll keep an eye on it with you.

劳拉·昂格，美联社驻肯塔基州路易斯维尔的科学与医学记者。

Laura Unger, science and medical reporter for AP based in Louisville, Kentucky.

我们现在要休息一下。

We have to take a break.

广告结束后，我们将分析一项反科学法案的案例，这项法案使路易斯安那州居民更难让企业承担责任。

And when we come back, we'll take a look at a case study of an anti science bill, which makes it harder for residents in Louisiana to hold industry accountable.

请继续关注。

Stay with us.

现在我们将转向一个复杂的案例研究。

Now we're going to pivot to a complex case study.

路易斯安那州的一项法律对社区团体收集科学数据设定了很高的门槛。

A Louisiana law sets the bar high for community groups collecting scientific data.

这听起来可能像是支持科学。

It may sound pro science.

严谨的数据当然是好的，但它阻止了公民联盟利用他们收集的关于环境毒素的数据来推动监管执行。

Rigorous data is good, of course, but it prevents coalitions of citizens from being able to use data they collect about environmental toxins to enforce regulation.

下面是弗洛拉为您带来后续故事。

Here's Flora with the rest of the story.

现在邀请我身边的是路易斯安那照明报的环境记者伊丽丝·普伦克，她常驻巴吞鲁日。

Joining me now to talk through this story is Elise Plunk, environmental reporter at the Louisiana Illuminator, and she's based in Baton Rouge.

伊丽丝，欢迎来到《科学星期五》。

Elise, welcome to Science Friday.

嗨。

Hey.

是的

Yeah.

很高兴能来。

Happy to be here.

好的。

Okay.

为什么路易斯安那州的公民要收集数据？

Why are citizens collecting data in Louisiana?

他们在监测什么？

What are they monitoring?

你知道，他们在寻找什么？

You know, what are they looking for?

路易斯安那州有着长期的背景，人们一直生活在工业设施附近，无论是像卡梅伦教区沿海的液化天然气设施，还是密西西比河沿岸各地的炼油厂。

So Louisiana has a really long legacy of, people living really close by to industry, whether that's liquefied natural gas, like along the coast of Cameron Parish, Louisiana, or refining facilities, anything throughout the region along the Mississippi River.

所以

So

住在这些设施附近，空气污染和水污染直接威胁着周边居民的健康。

living in really close proximity to these places, air pollution and water pollution are concerns that very directly impact the people living nearby.

因此，为了了解工业活动如何影响他们饮用的水源和呼吸的空气，人们努力获取信息并告知社区成员。

So in an effort to kind of inform themselves and inform community members about how exactly industry is impacting water they drink, the air they breathe.

路易斯安那州各地的不同团体正试图组织起来，通过社区科学导向的研究和监测项目，监控空气和水质。

Different groups across Louisiana are trying to organize and monitor the quality of air and water in different community science oriented research and monitoring projects.

那么，为什么这些人觉得必须亲自承担起数据收集的工作？

And why do these folks feel like they need to take this data collection into their own hands?

我的意思是，难道没有专门的机构负责这件事吗？

I mean, presumably, are agencies for this.

是的。

Yes.

路易斯安那州有一个叫环境质量部的机构。

There is a agency in Louisiana called the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality.

该机构主要负责部署各种设备，以检测空气中影响健康的各类成分。

They have the main role in deploying different devices that can check for different components in the air, that would impact health.

但路易斯安那州的社区团体非常希望推动在他们本地进行更积极的监测。

But community groups in Louisiana really want to push for more active monitoring within their, like, localities.

他们面临很多问题，比如空气质量许可经常被违反，工业排放的污染物总量经常超出允许限度。

They have a lot of issues with air quality permits being routinely violated, routinely exceeded the amounts of pollutants that industries are able to put into the air.

它们经常超过这些限制，特别是在卡梅伦教区，那里的液化天然气出口终端经常违反空气污染许可。

They they go above those limits fairly often, in, Cameron Parish, the liquefied natural gas export terminals down there routinely violate air pollution permits.

我在我报道中引用了一些相关的分析和研究来说明这一点。

And there's a couple different analyses and studies that go into that that I've cited in my reporting.

你采访了卡梅伦教区的社区组织者艾莉莎·波特罗，并且你和她一起乘船。

You interviewed Alyssa Portaro, who's a community organizer in Cameron Parish, and you were on a boat with her.

我们有一段当时的录音。

We have a clip from that.

我们来听一下。

Let's hear it.

社区科学是过去一年我和渔民们交谈时提到的一个话题，当时我们觉得这些机构根本没在做任何事来弄清楚到底发生了什么。

This is, like, community science is something that came up over the last year talking to fishermen where we're like, these agencies aren't doing anything to figure out what's going on.

我们能做些什么？

What can we do?

是的。

Yeah.

那天在船上风刮得很大。

The wind was whipping that day on the boat.

我们能听到。

We can hear it.

我们就好像身临其境一样。

We were it's like we were right there.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

我当时正在报道一个关于卡梅伦教区某液化天然气出口设施施工导致沉积物流入水体的故事。

I was working on a story about some sediment spills into bodies of water in Cameron Parish from some construction on a liquefied natural gas export facility.

还有，艾莉莎，我和几位在这次航行中交谈并一同出海的渔民提到，他们担心这些沉积物污染影响了当地牡蛎捕捞和虾类资源，而这些正是他们捕鱼、采集牡蛎并赖以谋生的地方。

And Alyssa, several of the fishermen I spoke with and went out with on that trip were concerned that it was affecting oyster harvesting and shrimp in the area where they, you know, fish and collect oysters and have their livelihoods.

所以我当时正在报道这个故事。

So I was working on that story.

但当我们乘船时，他们正在进行一项研究，把麦克风放入水中，通过耳机聆听，并记录仪器上显示的不同声音水平。

But as we were on the boat, they were conducting this research where they would put microphones into the water, and listen on headphones and note different levels of sound that would come from, like, the readings on the instruments.

我当时不知道他们在做什么，就问他们这是在搞什么。

And I didn't know what they were doing, so I asked what's going on here.

艾莉莎帮我解释说，他们担心附近工业产生的噪音影响了虾类的迁徙模式，但他们并不确切知道如何证明这一点，除非有研究人员深入调查，弄清楚为什么虾类不再像以往那样深入河口，以及为什么渔民捕获的虾量大幅减少。

And Alyssa helped explain to me that, they were concerned that noise levels from industry nearby was affecting the migration patterns of shrimp, but they didn't exactly know how to prove this without having, researchers investigate and determine why shrimp migrations weren't happening as far into the estuary as they had used to and why fishermen weren't catching as big of hauls of shrimp.

好的。

Okay.

你有一个社区正在努力收集环境污染的数据。

You have this community who is trying to collect data on environmental pollution.

告诉我们关于2024年那项阻碍这项工作的州法律吧。

Tell us about the 2024 state law that puts a wrench into that.

在路易斯安那州，这被称为摄像头法，即社区空气监测可靠性法案。

In Louisiana, this is known as the camera law, the Community Air Monitoring, Reliability Act.

因此，它于2024年在路易斯安那州议会通过，规定数据不得用于监管执法。

So it was passed in the Louisiana state legislature in 2024, and it makes the use of data for regulatory enforcement.

这意味着，如果社区成员通过空气监测仪收集的数据显示污染水平超过了附近工业许可的排放标准，除非使用的是环保署认证的监测仪，否则无法对该工业采取监管行动，

Meaning, if a community member gathered data from an air monitor and it showed higher pollution levels than the nearby industry's air pollution permit allowed for, it would not be able to enforce regulatory action against that industry unless it was an EPA certified monitor, the

那种

kind of

空气质量监测仪的黄金标准。

gold standard of air quality monitors.

这些监测仪，我猜一定很贵。

Which are, I'm sure, expensive.

是的。

Yes.

非常贵。

Very much so.

它们的价格可能高达数十万美元，是非常灵敏且精准的设备。

They can run upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars, very sensitive equipment, and, you know, very accurate equipment because of that.

但对于许多试图在自己社区内监测空气质量的草根组织来说，这几乎是无法企及的。

But something out of reach for a lot of these grassroots groups that are trying to monitor their air kind of just within their own communities.

是的。

Right.

这使得这些社区科学组织几乎不可能收集到可用于执法的数据，听起来是这样。

It makes it almost impossible for these community science groups to gather data that could then be used to enforce the law, it sounds like.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

所以，我觉得这里有一些复杂性。

So, I mean, it feels like there's some complexity here.

我们希望环境数据具有严谨性。

Like, we want environmental data to be rigorous.

对吧？

Right?

但我们也希望人们能够在出现污染时让企业承担责任。

But we also want people to be able to hold industries accountable if there's pollution.

你接触过的人是如何看待这个问题的？

How are the people that you have talked to thinking about this?

你是如何看待这种矛盾的？

How are you thinking about this tension?

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是我在思考如何报道这个问题时反复权衡的一点，因为显然，扎实可靠的数据是这一切的基础。

It's definitely something that I've gone back and forth over in a way, like, trying to figure out how to cover this because, of course, robust, reliable data is kind of the backbone of all of this.

我们需要可以信赖的数字，以及在污染监测方面能够以科学方式支持自己的依据。

We want, numbers we can count on and, you know, things that we can support ourselves within a scientific manner when it comes to pollution monitoring.

我

I

我与几位前环保署官员、直接操作这类监测设备的科学家交谈过，我问过他们：好吧。

have spoken with several former EPA officials, scientists who work directly with these types of monitors, and I've asked, alright.

那么，用于监管标准的黄金标准监测仪，与社区团体更常使用的、更便宜的监测仪相比，有多大差异？

So the gold standard monitors that are required for regulatory change, how different are they from the more common monitors that are more affordable that these community groups are using?

对。

Right.

普遍共识是，黄金标准之所以被称为黄金标准，是有原因的。

So the kind of consensus is that the gold standard is the gold standard for a reason.

它非常准确，能提供你最终需要的信息。

It's very accurate, and the information you would ultimately want to have.

但这些团体所使用的其他空气监测仪也提供可靠的数据。

But these other air monitors that groups are using have reliable data as well.

特别是在卡梅伦教区，栖息地恢复项目所使用的空气监测仪是由环保署提供的拨款资助的，旨在帮助这类草根团体负担得起空气质量监测设备。

So especially, like, in Cameron Parish in particular, the habitat recovery projects air monitor is funded by an EPA grant that was given out to help grassroots groups like this afford monitors for their air quality.

因此，似乎存在一种不匹配：环保署资助了购买这些特定监测仪的拨款，但不同法律却限制了它们的使用。

So it seems to be that there's kind of a mismatch when it comes to the EPA has funded grants to buy these specific monitors, but different laws enacted are restricting their use.

所以这里某个地方出了问题。

So there's a misstep somewhere in here.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我的意思是，这种情况是否超出了路易斯安那州的范围？

I mean, does this extend beyond Louisiana?

还有没有其他地方也通过了类似法律，或者已经存在这样的法律？

Are there other places where laws like this are being passed or already exist?

有的。

Yes.

在肯塔基州，2025年的立法会期间，我认为是在三月。

So in Kentucky, in the twenty twenty five legislative session, I believe in March.

因为我们在路易斯安那有狂欢节，情况稍微有点不同。

It's a little different in Louisiana because we have Mardi Gras.

但在三月，肯塔基州通过了一项法律，虽然没有路易斯安那州那么严格，但也限制了用于执行环境空气质量、污染监测等监管变更的设备类型。

But I believe in March, there was a law passed not quite as restrictive as Louisiana's, but restricting the type of equipment you can use in order to enforce regulatory change for ambient air quality, pollution monitoring, that sort of thing.

在俄亥俄州和西弗吉尼亚州，曾多次在立法中加入类似措辞，试图达到相同目的，但迄今为止尚未有任何法案在立法机构通过。

In Ohio and West Virginia several times, there has been verbiage inserted into legislation trying to do a similar thing, but nothing has passed out of the legislature so far.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

听起来似乎出现了一点趋势。

So there's a little bit of a trend, it sounds like.

是的。

Yeah.

确实出现了许多与路易斯安那州法律非常相似的州级立法。

There's definitely state legislation popping up very similar to Louisiana's law.

埃莉斯·普伦克，位于巴吞鲁日的《路易斯安那照明报》环境记者。

Elise Plunk, environmental reporter for the Louisiana Illuminator based in Baton Rouge.

谢谢，埃莉斯。

Thanks, Elise.

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

本播客由凯瑟琳·戴维斯制作，我们非常欢迎您的反馈。

This podcast was produced by Kathleen Davis, and we love hearing from you.

您可以通过我们的听众热线8774随时联系我们，下次再见。

And you reach us 247 on our listener line, 8774 We'll see you next time.

我是弗洛拉·利希特曼。

I'm Flora Lichtman.