安迪·威尔透露关于瑞恩·高斯林和《火星救援》项目的太空八卦

这里是《科学美国人》快速科学频道，我是肯德拉·皮埃尔-路易斯，代替蕾切尔·菲尔德曼为您播报。

For Scientific American Science Quickly, I'm Kendra Pierre-Louis, in for Rachel Feldman.

请报出你的名字。

Please state your name.

我是罗恩和格蕾丝，我刚从昏迷中醒来。

Ron and Grace, I just woke up from a coma.

我离我的公寓有好几光年远，而且我不是宇航员。

I'm several light years from my apartment, and I'm not an astronaut.

我不是宇航员。

I'm not an astronaut.

我不是宇航员。

I'm not an astronaut.

如果你不去，你就死定了。

If you don't go, you die.

我们是剩下的人。

We're the rest of us.

这是新的科幻电影《星际救援》，瑞恩·高斯林在片中饰演一位突然被抛入太空、却完全不知自己如何到达那里的科学老师。

That's the new sci fi movie Project Hail Mary, where Ryan Gosling plays a science teacher thrown into space with no idea how he got there.

这部电影改编自安迪·威尔创作的小说。

The film is based on the novel written by Andy Weir.

《科学美国人》的图书编辑布里·凯恩专程飞往洛杉矶，与他探讨这部电影。

SciAm associate books editor Bri Kane flew out to LA to chat with him about the movie.

以下是他们的对话。

Here's their conversation.

安迪·威尔，今天能和您聊聊《星际救援》我真是太高兴了。

Andy Weir, I'm so glad to be able to talk to you today about Project Hail Mary.

不过这并不是您第一次涉足好莱坞。

It is not your first foray into Hollywood though.

您之前还与马特·达蒙合作过《火星救援》。

You also got to work with Matt Damon on The Martian.

那么，和瑞恩·高斯林合作感觉如何？

So what's it been like working with Ryan Gosling?

嗯，这挺酷的。

Well, it's pretty cool.

在《火星救援》里，他们只给了我一笔钱，然后让我走人，这对我来说完全没问题。

In The Martian, they just gave me money and told me to go away, which is absolutely fine with me.

但这次我是制片人，所以从选角到实际拍摄，再到后期制作，以及观看每一版剪辑，我都全程参与。

But this time I'm a producer, and so I've been there for every step of the way from casting to like the actual principal photography and post production and watching cuts as they came in.

因此，能成为这部作品不可或缺的一部分，真的非常棒。

So it's been really cool to be like an integral part of it.

不过，我可不是什么大老板。

Now, I'm not any big boss guy.

我不能命令任何人做什么，但我确实在场。

I don't get to tell anyone what to do, but I'm but I'm there.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

我的意思是，你之前接受采访时提到过，你实际上是在创造洛克本人之前，先构建了他星球的生态系统。

I mean, you've mentioned in previous interviews that you actually developed the biosphere of Rocky's planet before developing Rocky themselves.

我很想了解你在这方面的过程。

I would love to know about your process there.

我一开始研究了真实的系外行星40 Aradani b，它的质量大约是地球的八倍。

Well, I started off with the real exoplanet 40 Aradani a b, which is about eight times Earth's mass.

它围绕恒星公转一周大约需要四十六天。

It orbits the star about every forty six days.

它比水星离太阳还要近。

It's closer to its star than Mercury is to ours.

于是我想，好吧。

And so I said, okay.

如果这就是这颗行星，那我要怎么做才能让它成为一个适合生命存在的地方？

If that's gonna be the planet, then what do I have to do to make this a place where life could exist?

在故事的背景下，发生了一次泛种现象。

And within the context of the story, there was a panspermia event.

所以它必须是基于水的生命。

So it has to be, like, water based life.

所以我想，要让液态水变得非常非常热，就必须有极高的大气压力，因为压力越高，水的沸点就越高。

And so I'm like, well, to have liquid water that's really, really hot, you have to have a really high atmospheric pressure because the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point of water.

所以，好吧，他们得有一个厚厚的大气层。

So, okay, they're gonna have a big thick atmosphere.

但如果你有一个厚厚的大气层，而且又紧挨着一颗恒星，那恒星基本上会把你的大气层像砂纸一样磨掉。

But if you're gonna have a big thick atmosphere and you're right next to a star, the star is basically gonna sandblast your atmosphere away.

唯一能保留大气层的方法，就是拥有一个非常强的磁场。

The only way to retain it is to have a really strong magnetic field.

所以现在我知道了，好吧，他们有一个非常厚的大气层，而且这颗行星自转得非常快。

So now I know, okay, they have a really thick atmosphere and the planet spins really quickly.

他们的白天并不长。

Their day is not very long.

如果他们的大气层这么厚，我想也许光线根本无法到达地表，因此在地表进化出视觉也没有任何好处，因为地表根本没有光。

If they have an atmosphere that thick, I figure maybe light doesn't make it all the way to the surface, so there's no benefit to evolving vision because there's no light on the surface.

所以我推测，他们的生物圈几乎就像一个海洋。

So I figure their biosphere is almost like an ocean.

就像在大气上层有一些生命形式能够吸收光并以此生存，而下面的生物以它们为食，再下面的生物又以更下层的生物为食，就像我们在深海中发现的那些完全无光环境中的生命形式一样。

It's like there's life forms that absorb light and live that way up at the upper levels of the atmosphere, and then things below that that eat those and things below that, just like we have life forms way deep in the ocean where there's absolutely no light.

所以这就是我构想出来的样子。

So that's kind of like what I came up with.

表面重力大约是2.1倍地球重力，所以我推测伊里迪安人必须非常强壮。

The surface gravity would be about 2.1 g, so I figured iridians have to be pretty strong.

我认定大气几乎完全由氨组成。

I decided the atmosphere is made almost entirely of ammonia.

这意味着大气中没有我们所依赖的游离氧气。

That means there's not free oxygen in the atmosphere, which we rely on.

对吧？

Right?

我推测他们体内的环境就像一个微型生物圈。

I figured the inside of their body is like a biosphere.

他们体内有类似植物的细胞和类似动物的细胞，维持着平衡。

They have plant like cells and animal like cells that keep in balance.

它们来回循环，只需要通过食物向系统添加能量即可。

They go back and forth, and all they need to do is add energy to the system via food.

一个铱人实际上只含有大约一公斤的生物物质。

An iridium is almost like it's only got about a kilogram of actual biological matter.

其余部分都是这些微小的工细胞构建出来的。

The rest of it is all just stuff that those little worker cells built.

所以，铱人就像一个能移动的蜂巢。

So an iridium is kinda like a beehive that can move.

其中绝大多数都是无机物质。

The vast majority of it is inorganic matter.

它只是容纳内部生物圈的一个容器。

It's just a container for this biosphere that exists on the inside.

这太酷了。

That is so cool.

我的意思是，这部电影整体上讲的是通过科学实现的共情与合作。

I mean, the movie overall is really about empathy and collaboration through science.

那为什么同理心对您塑造洛克这个角色如此重要？

And why was empathy so important to your development of Rocky's character?

我列了一份清单，写下我认为成为智慧物种并能够制造航天器所必需的一切条件。

Well, I made a list of everything that I thought was necessary in order to become an intelligent species and be able to make spacecraft and stuff.

我想，你首先需要一定的智力，而且这种智力必须是进化的。

And I figured, well, you need to have a certain amount of intelligence, right, that evolves.

然后你必须具备群体本能。

Then you have to have a pack instinct.

你需要许多个体协同合作，因为单个个体不可能从石器时代直接发明出航天器。

You need to be a lot of entities working together because one individual can't go from stone age technology to inventing spacecraft.

此外，他们还需要语言，能够相互传递信息的能力。

So and they need to have language, the ability to communicate information back and forth.

当你具备了所有这些条件时，就不可避免地会产生对其他伊里迪安人的同理心与同情心。

And when you have all of these things, it is inevitable that you have to have empathy and compassion for your fellow Iridian.

就像群居动物会照顾群体中受伤或生病的成员一样。

Like pack animals take care of the wounded or sick members of their pack.

这不仅仅是人类，还有狼和其他所有生物。

It's not just humans, it's wolves, everybody else.

所以，为了在太空中相遇，你遇到的外星人必须拥有语言，必须理解集体的概念，并且必须具备同理心和同情心。

So now in order to meet in space at all, the alien that you meet has to have language, has to understand the concept of a collective, and has to have, like, the concept of empathy and compassion.

你以前在采访中提到，你的大脑并不特别以视觉为中心，但你在这部故事中创造了两艘令人惊叹的宇宙飞船。

You've mentioned in interviews previously that you don't have a particularly visual centered brain, but you created two amazing spaceships in this story.

我想问问，这感觉是怎样的？你的创作过程是怎样的？

And I wanted to ask about what that's like and what your creative process is.

我的意思是，在我脑海中，事物更像是些模糊的色块。

Well, I mean, so in my mind, things are kind of like blobs.

我并没有完全的想象缺失症，但在我想象中，事物都显得非常模糊。

They don't have complete aphantasia, but it's like things are very blobby to me in my imagination.

我脑海中看到的，几乎只是一份清单，列出这艘飞船能做什么。

What I'm seeing in my mind are just almost like a list of these are the things this ship can do.

这艘飞船很大，那一艘很小。

This ship is big and this one's small.

我根本说不清楚Rocky的飞船长什么样，也说不清楚‘天琴座号’具体是什么样子。

I couldn't have told you exactly what Rocky's ship looked like or exactly what the Hail Mary looked like.

我的意思是，看到它们在大银幕上被呈现出来，感觉怎么样？

I mean, what's it like seeing them brought to life on the big screen then?

这其实特别方便，因为我本来就没有清晰的画面感，所以不会像很多作者那样，在看到书籍改编成电影时产生认知失调——我根本不需要去调和银幕版本和我脑海中的形象。

Well, this is where it gets really handy because since I don't have, like, a really strong idea of what these things look like in the first place, I don't have the problem that a lot of authors run into when they see their books adapted to the screen, which is where I don't have a cognitive dissonance that I need to deal with in reconciling the screen version with what was in my mind.

我脑子里根本什么都没有。

There wasn't anything in my mind.

所以我看到电影版本时，它就直接成了我心中的正统形象。

So I see the screen version and that just becomes canon in my head.

哦，原来飞船是长这样的。

I'm like, oh, so that's what the ship looked like.

哦，原来Rocky长这样。

Oh, so that's what Rocky looks like.

哦，现在如果我想起瑞恩·高斯林，我就只想到瑞恩·高斯林。

Oh, so now if I think of Ryan Gosling, I just think of Ryan Gosling.

我脑子里没有具体的形象。

I didn't have an image in my head.

写完这本书时，我说不出他头发的颜色，之类的事情完全说不上来。

When I finished the book, couldn't have told you what color his hair is, anything like that.

所以现在回头看，就是：哦，那就是瑞安。

So now it's just retroactively, it's like, okay, that's Ryan.

你的作品以每部故事中严谨的科学性而闻名，但这让我好奇，你有没有担心过某些科学内容在大银幕上呈现时会出问题？

Your writing is really known for the scientific rigor that you bring to every story, but that makes me wonder, was there some science you were worried about bringing to the big screen?

并没有特别担心。

Not particularly.

《海王星计划》中的科学内容都相当扎实。

The science in Project Hail Mary is all pretty firmly grounded.

在量子层面，确实有些牵强之处，比如细胞膜能困住中微子。

There's some BS all the way down at the quantum level where cell membranes can keep neutrinos in.

这并不是我们目前知道如何实现的事情，但也许超大截面效应是有可能发生的。

That's not a thing that we know how to do, but maybe super cross sectionality is a thing that could happen.

当然，还有创造中微子和湮灭中微子来产生光之类的东西。

And, of course, creating neutrinos and annihilating neutrinos in order to make light and stuff like that.

但除此之外，其他一切都遵循已有的物理和科学原理。

But outside of that, everything else just follows established physics and science.

所以我只是在量子层面打破了定律，然后从那里开始推演。

So I broke the laws way down there at the quantum level and then just worked from there.

这大概就是科幻小说中的虚构部分吧。

Well, that's the fiction part of science fiction, I suppose.

整部电影看起来就像是对科学教师的深情致意，感谢他们对我们的启发。

The movie overall seems like a real love letter to science teachers and how they inspire us.

你有没有哪位科学老师启发了瑞兰·格雷夫斯这个角色？

Was there any science teacher that you've had that inspired the character of Rylan Graves?

并没有哪位老师直接启发了瑞兰·格雷夫斯这个角色。

Not that inspired the character of Rylan Graves.

当然，有些老师对我产生了很大的影响。

There were certainly teachers that had a big effect on me.

冯老师，如果你在看这个，你好。

Mister Fong, if you're out there watching this, hi.

他是我高中时的三角学和微积分老师。

He was my trigonometry and calculus teacher in high school.

但我不会说莱兰这个角色是基于我认识的任何人，这是第一次，他不是一个基于我自身性格的角色。

But I wouldn't say that Ryland is based on any person I know, and for the first time, he's a character who's not based on my own personality.

所以《火星救援》里的马克·沃特尼就是基于我。

So Mark Watney in The Martian is based on me.

他就是我，所有优点被放大，所有缺点都被抹去。

He's just me with all of my good qualities magnified and all of my bad qualities erased.

对吧？

Right?

完美。

Perfect.

《阿尔忒弥斯》里的贾兹·巴沙拉，也就是安迪·威尔的另一本书，她是一位26岁的沙特女性，在月球上长大。

Jazz Bashara from Artemis, also known as Andy Weir's other book, she's a 26 year old Saudi woman who grew up on the moon.

所以很自然，她也是我。

So naturally, she's also me.

很难相信，但这是真的，因为她更像我年轻时的样子。

Hard to believe, but it's true because she's more like the way I was when I was her age.

我理论上很聪明，却依然做出糟糕的决定。

I was theoretically smart, yet still making really bad decisions.

我简直就是自己的头号敌人。

I was kinda my own worst enemy.

我遇到的大部分问题，都源于生活中自己做出的错误决定。

Most of my problems were because of poor decisions that I'd made in life.

于是我将这些都投射到她身上，希望让她成为一个更复杂的角色。

And so I projected all that into her in the hopes of making her a more complex character.

而对于莱兰来说，这是我第一次完全凭空创造一个角色，没有试图将他建立在我自己身上。

And so for Ryland, it was the first time I made a character up out of whole cloth without trying to base him on myself.

所以我说，好吧。

So I said, like, okay.

他害怕冲突。

He's conflict averse.

他有点天真。

He's a little naive.

他有点害怕。

He's a little scared.

我的意思是，我也害怕。

I mean, I'm scared.

每个人其实都一直害怕，但对他来说，这是核心特质之一。

Everybody's scared all the time, but he's that's like one of his core trait.

所以这一次，我试着创造一个不是直接复制我自身性格的角色。

And so I tried to make a character for once that wasn't just a rip off of my own personality.

不错。

Nice.

试试看吧。

Give it a whirl.

试试看。

Give it a whirl.

在最初创作《星际过客》时，有没有哪些特定的科幻故事给了你灵感？

Were there any particular science fiction stories you were inspired by when first writing Project Hail Mary?

我一生都在阅读科幻小说，所以随便挑一个吧。

I've had a life of reading science fiction, so I'd sort of pick one out.

我觉得它不完全吻合，但有部电影叫《敌对任务》，由丹尼斯·奎德和路易斯·卡萨·霍尔主演。

I did like it doesn't quite fit, but there's, like, that movie Enemy Mine with Dennis Quaid and Louis Casa Junior.

但他们在战争中是敌人，互相击落对方，然后不得不在一颗敌对星球上合作求生，诸如此类。

But they were enemies in a war, and they shot each other down, and then they have to work together to stay alive on this hostile planet and stuff like that.

我觉得那挺酷的，但我说的可不是这里发生的事。

I thought that was kinda cool, but I mean, that's not what's going on here.

罗基和莱兰从第一天起就合作了。

I mean, Rocky and Ryland worked together, cooperate from day one.

所以并不完全一样，但我喜欢那种感觉。

So it's not quite the same thing, but I like that.

今天事关重大，我得问你一下，安迪·威尔，你会自愿参加这个太空任务吗？

For all the marbles today, I have to ask you, Andy Weir, would you volunteer for this space mission?

哦，绝对不干。

Oh, hell no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我甚至都不会去参加那种普通的太空飞行。

I would not even just do a normal, like, go into space.

你对太空的哪些方面特别不感兴趣？

What is it about space that you're not particularly interested in experiencing?

我就是有焦虑症，我得吃药才能坐飞机。

I'm I'm just I have anxiety issues, and I I have to take pills just to fly.

比如，从芝加哥飞到这里，我吃了药，然后到这儿的第一天基本都在睡梦中度过，好让药效过去。

Like, so to fly here from Chicago, I took pills and then had to spend the first day I was here kind of sleeping them off.

而且为了说清楚，虽然我写的是勇敢的人，但我自己并不是那样的人。

And the prescription, just so we're clear, though I write about brave people, I'm not one of them.

是的。

Yeah.

这部电影中对失重状态的描绘非常出色，连宇航员都说这相当准确。

The depictions of zero g in this movie are really incredible and astronauts have even said that they agree it's pretty accurate.

对。

Yeah.

但你有兴趣体验失重状态吗？

But are you interested in experiencing zero g?

没有。

No.

听起来不像那样。

It doesn't sound like that.

我不是。

I am not.

不是。

No.

我不是。

I'm not.

我不想坐呕吐彗星飞行器之类的，不。

I don't wanna get on a vomit comet flight or anything No.

像啊，不。

Like No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

谢谢。

Thank you.

如果你有机会遇到像洛克西这样的外星人，你认为你最想向他们了解或询问的第一件事是什么？

And if you got to meet an alien like Rocky, what do you think are the first things you would want to learn from them or that you would want to ask them about?

这假设我们已经克服了语言障碍。

This presumes we've conquered the language barrier.

是的。

Yes.

我们已经交换了250个单词，所以可以稍微聊一聊。

We've already exchanged our 250 words, so we can chat a little bit.

我会先试着弄清楚他们掌握了哪些我们还不知道的技术。

I would start trying to figure out what technologies they have that they've worked out that we don't know yet.

在故事中，我故意没有让某一物种明显比另一个更先进。

On purpose within the story, I didn't wanna make, like, one species is, like, way more advanced.

总的来说，在故事里人类的技术比伊里迪安人更先进，但伊里迪安人在材料技术等方面要强得多。

I mean, broadly speaking, the humans are the more advanced technology than Iridians within the story, but iridians have much better materials technology and stuff like that.

所以它是有尖刺的。

So it's spiky.

我认为一个很好的例子是，在现实生活中，古代亚洲人就知道如何制造极其精细、极其精致准确的瓷器之类的物品。

I think a good example of this would be, like, in real life, in the ancient world, like in Asia, they knew how to make extremely fine, extremely delicate accurate porcelain, like ceramics and stuff like that.

而在西方，他们需要能够看到葡萄酒的发酵过程，因此他们的瓶子等物品是用玻璃制成的。

Whereas in the West, they needed to be able to see how their wine was fermenting, so they made their bottles and stuff out of glass.

由于他们用玻璃制作瓶子等物品，最终发明了光学技术。

And because they made their bottles and stuff out of glass, they ended up inventing optics.

因此，西方人有了眼镜，这延长了受过教育阶层的实用寿命，因为他们能更长时间地阅读和写作等等。

And so Westerners had, like, glasses, which extends the useful duration of your, like, learned class because they can read and write for longer and stuff like that.

但与此同时，亚洲人却拥有极其精细准确的木工、书法等技艺。

But meanwhile, Asians had these extremely fine and accurate woodworking calligraphy and all this stuff.

所以当这两种文化相遇时，并不是其中一方在所有方面都优于另一方。

So when these two cultures met, it wasn't like one of them was better at everything than the other.

它们各自都有比对方更先进的领域，并且彼此学习。

They both had their areas where they were more advanced than the other, and then they learned from each other.

所以，对你这个问题的长篇回答是，我会试着问：你们有什么地方比我们强得多？

So the long winded answer to your question is I would try to say, what do you do way better than us?

我也想学会怎么做。

And I wanna learn how to do that too.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，Rocky 是一位了不起的工程师。

I mean, Rocky is an incredible engineer.

你有什么东西想请 Rocky 帮你设计吗？

Is there anything you would ask Rocky to engineer for you?

我就想说，给我一些那种氙石液吧。

I would just say, like, give me some of that xenonite juice.

告诉我你们是怎么从零开始制造氙石的，因为那真的太棒了。

Just tell me how you make xenonite from scratch because that would really be awesome.

我们也非常好奇他是怎么制造出氙石的。

We are also really interested in how he made xenonite.

如果对此有后续，我非常想知道。

If there's a follow-up on that, I would love to know.

是的，从未定义过。

Yeah, never defined it.

对。

Yeah.

非常感谢你今天抽出时间，安迪。

Thank you so much for your time today, Andy.

和你交谈总是非常愉快。

It is always wonderful speaking to you.

和你聊天我度过了非常愉快的时光。

I've had a great time talking to you.

《星际救援》目前正在影院上映。

Project Hail Mary is out now in theaters.

想了解更多关于布里在洛杉矶的冒险以及她与电影明星瑞恩·高斯林的对话，请关注我们的YouTube频道。

To see more of Bree's adventure in LA and her conversation with the film star, Ryan Gosling, check out our YouTube channel.

你可以在节目笔记中找到链接。

You can find a link in the show notes.

今天就到这里。

That's it for today.

下周一再见，我们带来每周的科学新闻综述。

See you on Monday for our weekly Science News Roundup.

《科学速递》由我肯德拉·皮埃尔-路易斯与芒吉、苏什米塔·帕塔克、杰夫·德尔维斯科共同制作。

Science Quickly is produced by me, Kendra Pierre-Louis, along with Mwangi, Sushmita Pathak, Jeff DelViscio.

本集由布里·凯恩联合主持，由亚历克斯·苏古拉和玛尔塔·希尔剪辑。

This episode was co hosted by Bri Kane and edited by Alex Sugiura and Marta Hill.

谢娜·波塞斯和亚伦·沙塔克负责事实核查。

Shayna Posses and Aaron Shattuck fact checker show.

我们的主题音乐由多米尼克·史密斯创作。

Our theme music was composed by Dominic Smith.

订阅《科学美国人》，获取更多及时且深入的科学新闻。

Subscribe to Scientific American for more up to date and in-depth science news.

这里是《科学美国人》的肯德拉·皮埃尔-刘易斯。

For Scientific American, this is Kendra Pierre- Lewis.

周末愉快！

Have a great weekend!