永远别把肉丸放在意大利面上，与萨敏·诺斯拉特一起

蕴含了如此丰富的知识。

There's so much knowledge.

具体来说，那家酱油生产商的故事在于它是日本仅存的几家传统酱油生产商之一。

So the story of that soy sauce producer in particular is that it's one of the last remaining traditional soy sauce producers in Japan.

它的精妙之处在于要陈酿两年以上。

And what makes it so exquisite is that it's aged for upwards of two years.

而像万字牌或其他工业化生产的酱油，最多只陈酿三个月左右。

Whereas if you think of like Kikoman or other industrially produced soy sauces, they're aged around three months maximum.

所以说时间——在你们生产的任何食品中，时间往往是最昂贵的原料。

So that time is And in any food that you're producing, time is often the most expensive ingredient.

除了酱油需要陈酿两年外，这种酱油还要在这些特制的木桶中发酵。

In addition to the two years of aging the soy sauce, this soy sauce is aged in these special barrels.

这些巨大的木桶，如今全世界只剩一两个人懂得如何制作，因为它们的使用寿命接近百年。

These like huge wooden barrels that only one or two people are left in the world who know how to produce these barrels because they last close to a hundred years.

哇。

Wow.

但随着行业日益工业化，这种知识和木桶的需求已经消失，因为像龟甲万这样的工业化生产酱油，现在只用不锈钢桶在固定场所陈酿。

But as the industry has industrial, like, become so much more industrial, the need for that knowledge and for those barrels has disappeared because Kikkoman, just like an industrially produced soy sauce, is just aged in stainless steel cask, like in in the place.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以制作木桶的木材越来越难找了。

So the wood for the barrels is harder to find.

制作木桶的技艺也越来越罕见了。

The the knowledge of producing the barrels is harder to find.

而这些木桶本身也是风味的一部分。

And the barrels are part of the taste.

对吧？

Right?

那种特定木材中含有来自产地的微生物，会直接影响酱油的风味。

There's microbes in that specific type of wood from that place that affect the way that that tastes.

所以那一刻我几乎意识到，我尝到的是一种濒危食品，明白吗？

So it's almost like I knew in that moment I was like getting to taste an endangered food, right?

濒危物种。

An endangered species.

幸好帕尔马干酪并非濒危，但要知道，制作一轮帕尔马干酪需要经年累月的陈化过程。

And Parmesan is not endangered thankfully, but like again, you know, years of aging go into making a wheel of Parmesan.

制作一轮帕尔马干酪需要数百加仑的牛奶。

Hundreds of gallons of milk go into one wheel of Parmesan.

所以你看，为了这一小口美味，需要耗费如此庞大的工作量、资源和时间。

So it's just, it's like this massive amount of work and like resources and time for one little bite.

最让我感动的地方就在于此——我钟爱这类事物。

And that is what is so meaningful to me is like, I love those things.

我毕生都热爱这样的存在。

I love that in my whole life.

我钟情于那些将魔法般魅力稍作隐藏的事物。

I love things that feel like the magic is sort of hidden a little bit.

帕尔马干酪是怎么制作的？

How do you make Parmesan cheese?

你们用那么多牛奶在做什么？

What are you doing with all that milk?

他们在做什么呢？

What are they doing?

所有奶酪啊...这就是让我痴迷的事物之一，我太爱乳制品了。

Well, all cheese all cheese this is one of those things that blows my I love dairy so much.

有意思的是我女朋友有乳糖不耐症，我就想：天啊。

Like, what's funny is my girlfriend's lactose intolerant, I'm like, oh god.

天啊，我感觉糟透了。

God, I feel so bad.

当我还是个年轻厨师，在Chez Panisse这家了不起的餐厅工作时，最让我震撼的是看到那些经验丰富的厨师们——他们真的懂得如何从零开始制作任何食物。

When I was a young cook actually working at Chez Panisse at this amazing restaurant, one of the things that really sort of took blew me blew me away was seeing these people, like these incredibly experienced cooks who literally knew how to make anything from scratch.

这种精神后来成为了我的职业信条。

And that sort of is a is a little bit of like what became my ethic.

对吧？

Right?

比如我该如何从零开始制作这个黄色蛋糕？

Like how can I make this yellow cake from scratch?

对吧？

Right?

但有样东西他们并非完全从零制作——马苏里拉奶酪，这本身就让我很惊讶他们居然会制作，但并非全程自制。

And so but one of the things that they didn't make from scratch it already kind of surprised me that they made it at all, but they didn't make it all the way from scratch was mozzarella cheese.

我们会现场拉伸新鲜马苏里拉奶酪。

So we would we would pull fresh mozzarella.

我们从本地生产商那里取得凝乳，然后将其拉伸成团块，做成那种可以切片用于卡普里沙拉等菜肴的奶酪球。

We would get the curd from the local producer and then pull it into mats into fresh the like balls that then we would slice and turn into like caprese salad or something else.

这就像个魔术戏法。

And it is kind of this magic trick.

真的，它会变成这种有弹性的质地，制作过程非常有趣。

Truly is like, it turns into this rubbery texture and it's very fun to make.

我当时就想：这太神奇了，但我们为什么不从牛奶开始呢？

I was like, well, this is amazing, but why aren't we starting with milk?

对吧？

Right?

我们应该能自己做凝乳。

We should be able to make our own curd.

去把牛牵来。

Get the cow.

啊。

Yeah.

因为这是从零开始建造的房子。

Because this is the house of made from scratch.

让我们从头开始做这个。

Let's make this from scratch.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以上帝保佑他们。

So God bless them.

就像这些，就像，这就像只有在Chez Panisse才会遇到的那种事。

Like these like, this is this is like one of those things where I'm like only at Chez Panisse.

我决定把这个作为我的项目。

I decided to take this on as my project.

我当时大概20岁。

And I was, you know, probably 20 years old.

我那时可能偶尔被允许切个洋葱。

I had no was I maybe they sometimes let me cut an onion.

就像我没有任何烹饪经验一样。

Like I had no culinary experience.

所以当时我根本不该做这个。

So then I had no business doing this.

这也是互联网非常早期的阶段。

This is also very early internet.

这大概是1999到2000年左右。

This is like ninety nine, two thousand.

你必须记住。

You have to remember.

好的。

Okay.

那时候你没法像现在这样上网搜索'如何从头制作马苏里拉奶酪凝乳'。

So you couldn't there was not like a there was not the internet where you could be like how to make mozzarella curd from scratch.

那时候没有这些。

There was not that.

是的。

Yes.

所以我只能在书里查找。

So I had to look it up in books.

我去了加州大学伯克利分校的食品与烹饪科学图书馆，在书里查找这些内容。

I went to the UC Berkeley Food and Cookbook Science Library, sort of looked this up in books.

然后我找到了基本步骤。

And I found out the basic steps.

我给几位与餐厅有交情的奶酪师傅打了电话。

I called a few cheesemakers who were friends of the restaurant.

他们全都表示，千万别那么做。

They all were like, do not do that.

他们说...我说...我完全听不懂你们在说什么。

They were like And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

这明明很简单啊。

It's so simple.

不就是牛奶、凝乳酶再加点酸嘛。

It's just milk and rennet and a little acid.

我当然能搞定啦。

Like, of course I can totally do it.

结果他们又说，正因为太简单才真的不能做。

And they're like, no, literally because it's so simple.

这是最难处理的凝乳之一，最难制作的奶酪之一。

It's one of the hardest curds, one of the hardest cheeses to make.

别尝试了。

Don't do it.

哦。

Oh.

总之整个夏天我浪费了数万加仑牛奶试图制作马苏里拉奶酪，结果全失败了——因为制作奶酪必须保持绝对无菌环境，毕竟整个过程就是在适合细菌繁殖的温度下进行的。

So basically, is all to say I spent like an entire summer wasting like tens of thousands of gallons of cheese of milk in an attempt to make mozzarella that like never were also because cheese, you have to have everything super sterile because it's basically The whole point is it's at bacteria growing temperatures.

所以必须确保没有培养出有害菌种。

So you just have to make sure you're not growing the wrong bacteria.

所以在制作奶酪时，你真的可能让人生病。

And so you can make people really sick in cheese making.

人会死的。

People can die.

所以你必须给所有东西消毒，就像，别相信餐厅厨房里20岁的人能做出你想吃的奶酪。

So you have to sterilize everything, is like, do not trust a 20 year old in an in restaurant kitchen to be making cheese that you wanna eat.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我学到的一件事是，天啊。

But one of the things that I learned was, oh my god.

比如，我用一加仑牛奶开始，最后得到，我甚至不知道，大概八盎司的凝乳。

Like, I would start with a gallon of milk and end up with, I don't even know, eight ounces, maybe eight ounces of curd.

哇。

Wow.

所以在《盐脂酸热》成功后，我以为你会尽情享受生活，西蒙妮，过最精彩的日子。

So after the success of Salt Fat Acid Heat, I thought you would be living it up, Simone, and living your best life.

但你在新书里写道，事实并非如此，并不完全是那样。

But you read in your new book, it wasn't it wasn't like it hasn't been exactly like that.

你最近怎么样？

How have you been?

不。

No.

我是说，我还好。

I mean, I'm okay.

我现在没事了。

I'm okay now.

那很好。

That's good.

那很好。

That's good.

不过确实。

But yeah.

书出版时我38岁，剧集播出时我37岁，书出版时38岁。

I was 38 when the book came out and when the I was 37 when the book came out, 38 when the show came out.

在那之前，我人生的大部分时间都处于相当不为人知的状态。

And I'd spent most of my life till then, much of my life till then being quite sort of invisible in the world.

对吧？

Right?

只是埋头工作，渴望自己的努力能得到认可。

Just head down, doing my work, sort of dying for acknowledgment for the hard work.

然后我从一个极端——几乎不被看见，突然变成了过度被关注。

And then I went from one extreme of being very sort of underseen to then being very overseen.

是啊。

Yeah.

这在很多方面确实让我有点失去平衡。

It's just that it kind of knocked me off kilter in a lot of ways.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊，我不得不这样。

And I had to yeah.

我陷入了深深的抑郁。

I sunk pretty deep in depression.

是的。

Yeah.

你你你写到，那种你过去总能从烹饪和饮食中找到的快乐感突然变得遥不可及。

You you you wrote that, like, the sense of joy that you'd always found in cooking and eating no longer felt attainable.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那段时间真的很...你知道，显然那时候还赶上新冠疫情。

It was really I it was a very you know, obviously during this time, it was also there was COVID.

是啊。

Yeah.

还有乔治·弗洛伊德谋杀案...但归根结底，部分原因与我父亲的离世有关，看着我爸...哦抱歉。

There was like George Floyd murder and but ultimately and and part of it had to do with my dad dying and like watching my dad Oh, I'm sorry.

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

我当时就看着这个非常复杂又可悲的人，经历漫长而痛苦的死亡过程。

I was just watching this very complicated and kind of horrible person die a very sad, prolonged, complicated death.

我父亲就像个混乱制造者，给太多人带来了痛苦。

And my dad was such a chaos agent and created so much pain for so many people.

他最后几个月因为各种原因过得非常糟糕。

And his last months were really awful for a variety of reasons.

但某种程度上，最深刻的体会是他当时是孤独的。

But part of sort of the takeaway was that like, he was alone.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我和我兄弟尽可能陪在他身边，但我们就像陷入了他在这段时间制造的混乱漩涡中。

Like my brother and I were there with him as much as we could be, like there was And we were just in this sea of chaos that he had created during this time.

这对我们所有人包括他自己来说都太可怕、太难受了。

It was so horrible and uncomfortable for all of us, including him.

我当时就想，这真是我能想象到最糟糕的离世方式。

And I was like, this is the worst way I could imagine for somebody to die.

如此孤独、悲伤又可怜。

This is just so lonely and sad and pathetic.

那一刻我突然意识到，当我临终时，我希望回顾一生能看到自己创造了充满美好、快乐、友谊、联结、美味、小狗、花园和艺术的人生。

And I kind of had this moment of being like, you know, when I'm on my deathbed, I want to look back and know that I made a life that was full of beauty and joy and friendship and connection and deliciousness and puppy dogs and gardens and, you know, art.

所以他去世后，我——我想这很常见——突然被'人生只有一次'的感悟所淹没。

And so once he died, I kind of was I think this is pretty common, but I very much was sort of washed over with a sense of like, you only live once.

你懂我说的吗？

You know what I mean?

在那种悲痛状态下，时间的珍贵性变得异常清晰——我突然意识到自己一辈子都在努力做个好人、做好事、赢得周围人的喜爱。

Like the sort of preciousness of time really sort of was like, I could see it so clearly in that state of like grief was just like, oh, I've spent my whole life trying to be good and to do good and to win the affection of the people around me.

而我脑海里始终有个声音在说：只管埋头苦干，行善行善再行善。

And I've had this sort of voice in the back of my head being like, just put your head down, do good, do good, do good.

就像我在投资一个好的银行账户，希望有一天能达到某种平衡，从中提取快乐，你懂吗？

Like I'm investing in a good bank account so that one day I'll reach some sort of like balance from which I can withdraw and be happy, you know?

我当时就想，哦，根本没有那一天，对吧？

And I was like, Oh, there's no day, right?

根本没有所谓的终点。

There's no there that you get to.

我必须问自己，为什么我要让自己在这段时间里如此痛苦？

I have to, why am I making myself so miserable in the meantime?

当下即是全部。

The meantime is all there is.

所以我觉得我已经尽可能地改变了自己的态度，比如即使截止日期临近，我因为落后而感到非常糟糕（这种情况经常发生），我仍然要休息一下，和朋友去公园吃西瓜。

And so I think I sort of have just changed as much as a person can change my policy about that of like, oh, I have to Like even if I'm on deadline and I feel really bad about being behind, which is all the time, like I still have to take a break and go have watermelon in the park with my friends.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

就像我每天仍然要有一点快乐，而我能做到的方式就是烹饪这件简单的事。

Like I still have to have a little bit of joy every day and I still have in a way that I can do that is this like simple act of cooking.

如果我重新调整对生命中什么是有价值的理解，最终最有价值的就是我的时间，对吧？

And that if I sort of understand, if I sort of reorient my entire understanding of what's valuable in my life, and that the ultimate most valuable thing is my time, right?

我唯一无法制造更多的东西，唯一无法生产更多的就是时间。

The only thing I can't make more of, the only thing I can't produce more of is time.

这才是我最珍贵的货币。

That's actually the most precious currency I have.

所以我为你花时间、与你共度时光或为你付出时间，是我能给你的最美好的礼物，反之亦然。

And so my act of spending time for you or with you or on you is the most beautiful gift I can give you and vice versa.

这不像，哦，我只是想做出世界上最好的千层面。

It's not like, Oh, I'm just trying to make the world's best lasagna.

而是，我在做这道菜时想着那个邀请我为她生日做千层面的人。

It's like, I'm thinking about the person who asked me to make lasagna for their birthday while I make this.

我把所有这些心血都倾注在这道有时需要两天才能完成的菜肴上。

And I'm putting all of that energy into this thing that takes sometimes two days to make.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以当你吃它时，你会觉得我为你花费了两天宝贵的时间。

So that when you eat it, you feel like I spent two days of my precious time on you.

没错。

Yeah.

而且心甘情愿。

And happily.

对吧？

Right?

在你的新书《美好事物》中，里面不仅有惊艳的食谱，还有这些关于如何活得更快乐的深刻建议。

In your book in your new book, In Good Things, it's filled with obviously fabulous recipes and these sort of bigger tips about, like, just living a happier life, I think.

还有一大堆关于食物的有趣科学知识。

But also a bunch of fun facts about fun science y facts about food.

你知道，我找了个借口说节目里必须要有肉类食材。

You know, the excuse that I I was like, I have to get some meat on the show.

我们最好谈谈科学。

We better talk about science.

但你能告诉我，你提到的一点是烘焙前需要让鸡蛋达到室温。

But so can you tell me one of the, things you mentioned is that you need to bring eggs to room temperature before baking them.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

噢，是的。

Oh, yeah.

嗯，这真是个很好的问题。

Well, it's oh, that's such a good question.

这真是个简单的问题。

I It's just such a simple question.

这太好了。

It's so good.

因为几乎每个烘焙配方里都会写：确保你的鸡蛋是室温的。

Because it is in almost every baking recipe, make sure your eggs are at room temperature.

对吧。

Right.

就像我刚才说的黄油在不同温度下会有特定性质，鸡蛋也是。

And just like I was saying about butter having like very specific qualities at different temperatures, eggs do too.

而且也不一定说室温鸡蛋就比冷藏鸡蛋更容易打发，虽然确实如此。

And also it's it's not that it's not even so much necessarily that an egg at room temperature will whip better than a cold egg, even though it will.

室温的蛋白确实比冷藏的更容易留住空气。

Like a room temperature egg white will hold air more readily than a cold one.

但是

But

在烘焙中，通常你会将不同食材混合，比如把鸡蛋加入蛋糕面糊。具体来说，你可能有已经与糖打发过的软黄油（或者反打发方式），然后准备往里面加入鸡蛋。

often in baking, what you're doing is you're combining different ingredients like with an egg into a cake batter, say, what you're doing is you have your soft butter that maybe you've creamed with your sugar or whatever or reverse creamed or whatever, And then you're gonna add eggs into that.

通常一次加一个鸡蛋，等它混合均匀后再加下一个。

And often you do one egg at a time, let it mix in, add the next egg.

有时甚至更讲究，你会非常缓慢地滴入鸡蛋液。

Or even sometimes more like, you even do it more gradually where you're just adding you're dribbling the egg in.

这是因为你需要保持乳浊液状态。

And that's because you are trying to keep an emulsion.

要知道，你需要让蛋糕面糊、混合物或曲奇面团等形成统一的质地和均匀的混合物。

You know, you're trying to have this cake batter or mixture or cookie dough or whatever come together into a unified texture and a unified mixture.

如果食材温度差异太大，它们就不容易融合。

And if things are vastly different temperatures, they're not going to come together as readily.

如果把冷的食材加入温热的食材里，它们会有点互相排斥。

And if you're adding a cold thing into a warm thing, they're kind of going to reject each other a little bit.

你需要所有材料的温度都相近。

You want everything to be similar temperature.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

换个稍微不同但和冰箱相关的话题，你写道冷藏会破坏番茄的细腻风味。

On a sort of different note, but fridge related, you write that refrigeration destroys a tomato's delicate flavor.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It is true.

它确实会破坏番茄的精致风味。

It does destroy the delicate tomato flavor.

当我还是个新手厨师时，有人告诉我他们感觉像是有一块边缘磁铁上写着——我想它是这么说的。

When I was a baby cook, somebody told me they I feel like they had a fringe magnet that said like I think it said that.

就像冷藏，我想...我想我是在引用那块边缘磁铁的话。

Like refrigeration I think it I think I was quoting the fringe magnet.

但基本上番茄非常娇嫩，这要追溯到那些芳香分子。

But but basically tomatoes are very delicate and this goes back to those aromatic molecules.

而且番茄和许多其他东西一样，对温度很敏感。

And also a tomato, like many other things, is sensitive to temperature.

冷藏对蔬菜的作用本质上是延缓腐败过程。

What a phrygia does to vegetables is it slows down the decay essentially.

对吧？

Right?

就像蔬菜从被采摘的那一刻起就开始死亡。

Like a vegetable from the moment it's picked is dying.

对吧？

Right?

而且这些蔬菜内部也在发生许多化学变化。

And also a lot of things are happening chemically inside those vegetables.

比如我们很多人都听说过，以甜玉米为例——它刚摘下来时最新鲜，或者说刚摘下来时最甜。

Like, for example, a thing many of us have heard is with sweet corn, for example, like it's the freshest the moment it's picked or it's the sweetest the moment it's picked.

这完全是真的。

And that's totally true.

就像我认识的那些在中西部玉米种植区长大的朋友，你知道，奶奶会先把水烧开，然后才让孩子们去院子里摘玉米。

Like, I I people I know who grew up in the Midwest where they grow a lot of corn, you know, the grandma would put on the pot of water to bring it to a boil before sending the kids out into the yard to pick the corn.

因为她觉得，玉米必须从采摘直接下锅。

Because she's like, it has to go straight from the picking into the pot.

奶奶是对的，因为当你采摘蔬菜时，从你摘下的那一刻起，它内在的糖分就开始转化为淀粉。

And grandma was right because what you're doing when you pick a vegetable is, like, the minute you pick it, its innate sugars start transforming into starches.

所以如果你吃过淀粉质的玉米，那种干巴巴带粉感的，很可能是因为放久了，或者是品种问题。

So like if you've had starchy corn, you know, that's like kind of like dry and starchy, that's probably because it's old or it could be the variety.

但如果是新鲜玉米棒，刚摘下来的那一刻是最甜的。

But if it's supposed to be like corn on the cob, it's the sweetest the moment's picked.

这就是为什么如果可能的话，你应该在从农贸市场买回玉米的当天就吃掉它。

That's why you wanna eat the corn like the day you bring it home from the farmer's market if you can.

番茄也是如此。

And so the same is true for a tomato.

番茄的成熟过程略有不同，但你仍然希望在糖分最高时采摘，然后放进冰箱。

Tomatoes ripen slightly differently, but still you want to pick them at the peak of their sugars and putting them in the fridge.

冷藏对番茄质地的影响是：它会开始破坏细胞结构，使番茄的质地变得粉糯。

What it's going to do to a tomato's texture is it's going to start degrading the cells and the cells will become like the texture of the tomato will start to become mealy.

哦，我都能想象出你的表情。

Oh, I can just see your face.

你对正在发生的事感到如此厌恶。

You're so disgusted with what's happening.

是的。

Yeah.

真恶心。

So gross.

或者番茄。

Or tomato.

恶心。

Gross.

你会损失很多那些芳香分子，正是这些分子让番茄拥有如此鲜活清新的风味。

You'll lose a lot of those, and you'll lose a lot of those, like, aromatic molecules, which are what makes a tomato have such sort of vibrant fresh flavor.

所以我真的不把番茄放进冰箱。

So I I really I don't put tomatoes in the fridge.

我总是让它们在室温下存放。

I always leave them out at room temperature.

没错。

Yeah.

你花了很多时间思考食品系统，以及我们如何将食物运送到超市的整个流程。

You you have spent a lot of time thinking about food systems and how we get food to how all that food ends up in our supermarket.

有时候真的很有趣。

It's so interesting sometimes.

你会发现最疯狂的事情。

You find out the craziest things.

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，就像在你的餐盘上，你能看到社会经济制裁等社会政治冲突的影响，也能品尝到这些变化带来的滋味。

So, it's like on your plate, you can see sort of the effects of sociopolitical conflict of like economic sanctions and you can taste the changes that happen with these.

举个例子，我认为肉桂就是个绝佳的例子。

So for example, cinnamon is I think a really great example.

大约在20世纪中叶之前，美国的主要肉桂来源是越南。

So until about, I would say the mid 1900s in this country, The US, our source or our main source of cinnamon was Vietnam.

越南种植的肉桂是甜味的。

And the cinnamon grown in Vietnam is sweet.

当你尝一片肉桂树皮时，舌尖会感受到甜味。

Like when you taste a piece of cinnamon bark, it tastes sweet on your tongue.

它同时含有丰富的肉桂油，正是这些油脂让它带有辛辣风味。

It also is very high in the oils, like the cinnamon oils that kind of make it taste spicy.

如果你吃过红辣口香糖、红辣糖果或大红口香糖，那种火辣的肉桂味就是我说的这种，明白吗？

So if you've ever had like red hot gum or red hot candies or big red gum, like that taste of that very spicy sort of cinnamon, that is what I'm talking about, right?

但如果让你想象肉桂，你想到的不会是红辣口香糖。

But if I told you to picture cinnamon, you wouldn't think of red hot gum.

你会想到苹果派、肉桂苹果酒甜甜圈之类的，那完全是另一种肉桂。

You would think of apple pie or cinnamon apple cider donuts or something, which is a totally different kind of cinnamon.

那种肉桂历史上来自墨西哥或印度。

And that cinnamon comes historically from Mexico or India.

它的分子构成和风味特征都截然不同。

And it has just a completely different sort of like molecular makeup and a different spice profile.

它的辣度低很多，味道更柔和。

It's much less spicy and more sort of softly flavored.

就像我说的，如果你想区分苹果派和大红口香糖的区别的话。

That's if you wanna picture the difference between, like I said, apple pie and big red gum.

是啊。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

这两样东西都含肉桂，但完全是不同种类的肉桂。

Those things are both cinnamon, but totally different kinds of cinnamon.

所以在20世纪中叶之前，基本上这里所有人对肉桂的体验都是这种越南产的、非常甜又非常辛辣的肉桂。

And so until like mid 1900s, basically everyone here, like our experience of cinnamon was this Vietnamese, very sweet, very spicy cinnamon.

后来越南战争爆发，经济制裁实施，从越南来的所有商品——大约从60年代末到90年代末比尔·克林顿执政期间——都被禁止进入这个国家。

And then when the Vietnam war happened and there were sanctions, the economic sanctions posed on all goods coming here from Vietnam, from like this, I think late sixties until the late nineties when Bill Clinton was president, there were nothing from Vietnam could enter this country.

所以整整一代半人的时间里，人们对肉桂的体验转向了印度、墨西哥和中国的肉桂。

So an entire generation and a half of people, their experience of cinnamon shifted into Indian, Mexican, Chinese cinnamon.

因此那种大红口香糖的味道，我也属于那代人。

And so that taste of that big red whatever felt and I fall into that group.

对吧？

Right?

我出生于79年。

I was born in '79.

然后有一天——具体时间我记不清了。

And then one day, like in I can't remember when it was.

大概在2002或2003年，有人给了我一块越南肉桂树皮。

Probably 2002, 2003, someone gave me a piece of Vietnamese cinnamon bark.

那是我从未尝过的味道。

Like I'd never had it before.

它如此美味，现在我只用越南肉桂来烹饪。

And it's so good that I now only use Vietnamese cinnamon for cooking.

我总是会特意寻找它。

Like I always look for it.

现在很容易买到，比如在Costco就能找到。

And at this point, can find it like, I got you can get it at Costco.

全食超市也有售。

Can get it at Whole Foods.

你只需要找标着'越南肉桂'或'西贡肉桂'的产品。

You just look for it's called Vietnamese or Saigon cinnamon.

但这种方式，你知道，它讲述了一个故事。

But it is this way where, you know, it tells this story.

对吧？

Right?

这种简单的食材和味道，讲述了一个疯狂的全球故事。

This, like, taste and this simple ingredient tells this crazy, like, global story.

那为什么香草豆这么贵呢？

And then why are vanilla beans so expensive?

天啊。

Oh my god.

香草豆真是太疯狂了。

Vanilla beans are so crazy.

有一次，我住在棕榈沙漠附近，有人跟我说，你一定要去看看这个兰花温室。

So I I at one point, I was staying in the near the Palm Desert and somehow somebody was like, you gotta go visit this orchid greenhouse.

它们太惊艳了。

They're so amazing.

在棕榈沙漠我没什么事可做。

There wasn't a lot for me to do in Palm Desert.

所以我就想，不如去看看那个兰花温室吧。

So I was like, I'll go visit the orchid greenhouse.

于是我去了兰花温室，看到了各种不同的兰花品种。

So I went to the orchid greenhouse and I saw the different types of orchids.

我算不上是兰花狂热爱好者，但那确实挺酷的。

I'm not like a major orchid nerd, but it was still pretty cool.

是啊。

Yeah.

它们非常性感。

They're very sexy.

它们非常...我感觉就像

They're very I feel like

我在看色情片一样。

I'm looking porn.

你懂吗？

You know?

完全正确。

Totally.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

在参观快结束时，他们和我都惊呼，那是什么东西？

And at the very end of the tour, they were like I was like, oh, what's that thing?

那里有一种藤蔓类植物，疯狂地攀爬蔓延。

And there was this one sort of plant that was like this crazy vining trailing plant.

他们说，哦，那是香草。

And they're like, oh, that's vanilla.

我当时就震惊了，什么？

And I was like, what?

他们解释说香草豆时，我才知道香草居然是兰花？

And they're like, bean I was like, vanilla is an orchid?

他们回答，没错。

And they're like, yes.

所以香草是兰花植物，或者说香草是兰花植物的种子荚。

And so vanilla is an orchid plant or vanilla is the seed pod from an orchid plant.

而且，香草豆在植株上成熟需要将近一年时间。

And, it takes almost a year for a vanilla bean to mature on the plant.

在这一年里，当植株开花时非常娇气，在香草种植园里必须由人工逐朵进行手工授粉，以确保产量。因为据说每朵花只有大约三天的授粉窗口期。

And in that year, when the plant flowers, it's so finicky that on a vanilla farm, a human has to go and hand pollinate each flower to ensure that like enough vanilla will be produced because there's, I think, something like a three day window for that flower to be pollinated.

所以如果全靠蜜蜂和自然授粉的话...是啊。

So if they were left to the bees and nature Yeah.

要知道，你可能只能收获非常少的香草产量。

You know, probably you would get much a much smaller yield of vanilla.

所以首先，步骤已经相当繁琐，你实际上需要人工操作。

So for one thing, like, step already is so sort You of got humans literally.

你需要人工授粉，而且还得在这个非常短暂的时间窗口内完成。

You got humans hand pollinating, but also in this very small time window.

对吧？

Right?

所以你必须确保操作正确。

So you have to get that right.

然后你还得等待好几个月的时间。

And then you have to wait however many months.

我想种子荚成熟需要超过八个月的时间。

I think I think it's upward of eight months for the seed pod to ripen.

然后它们被采摘，接着要经过一个多步骤的发酵过程。

And then they're picked and then there's a multi step basically fermentation process.

因为刚采摘时，那还不是我们所熟悉的香草豆荚。

Because when they're picked, it's not the pod, it's not the vanilla bean that we know.

它仍然无法使用。

It's still not usable.

所以必须经过多步骤的干燥和发酵过程，才能变成我们熟悉的芳香豆荚。

So it has to go through a multistep sort of drying and fermentation process to become the fragrant pod that we know.

当你了解这些后，再叠加另一个认知：这些香草原产地正是最容易受气候灾害影响的地区。

So when you understand that and then layer onto that a whole other understanding that these places where vanilla is endemic are among the most vulnerable to climate disaster.

就像你开始学习，哦，对吧？

Like you start to learn, oh, right?

就像，哇，这是对人类来说不可思议的宝藏，实际上却濒临灭绝。

Like, wow, this is an incredible treasure for humankind that actually is on the verge of extinction.

而且，你知道，它只能在这种非常有限的气候中生长。

And, you know, it can only grow in this very limited climate.

如果我们不保护那些气候、那些生活在那里的人、那些植物，那么我们就会失去这一切。

And if we do not protect those climates, those people who live there, the plants, then we will lose this.

我们很可能会失去香草，可能不会在我有生之年，但很可能在下一代人的有生之年。

And we will likely lose vanilla, probably not in my lifetime, but probably in the next generation's lifetime.

很可能不会。

Will probably not.

香草、巧克力、咖啡、香蕉。

Vanilla, chocolate, coffee, bananas.

有很多食物我们某种程度上没有考虑到，它们在这个世界上存在的时间不长了。

There are a lot of foods that we sort of don't think about that are not long for this world.

当你看看外面的食物趋势时，你知道，无论是大豆扁豆还是机器人，哦天哪。

When you when you look at the food trends out there, you know, whether it's soy lent or robots Oh god.

给我们上菜，哦我的天。

Serving us food Oh my god.

各种饮食，生酮饮食、肉食主义。

Various diets, Ketogenic, carnivore.

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh my god.

什么最让你感到害怕？

What what do what terrifies you the most?

我

I

天啊。

oh my god.

什么让你害怕？

What terrifies you?

我很焦虑。

I'm like anxious.

你刚列举的所有事情都让我非常焦虑。

All the things you just listed make me so anxious.

哦天哪。

Oh god.

我是说，我觉得这其实不算趋势，但我想我要把...抱歉。

I mean, I think what really this isn't really a trend, but I think what I'm gonna turn the sorry.

我不会回答你的问题。

I'm not gonna answer your question.

我要反过来问。

I'm gonna turn it inside out.

很好。

Great.

我

I

对那些种植、生产和制作我们日常食物的人们，我深感有保护他们的责任。

feel so protective of the people who grow, produce, and make our food that we get to eat.

这份工作实在不够光鲜。

It's such unglamorous work.

总体来说，这份工作报酬微薄，无论文化、国家或人群差异。

It's such low paying work in general, across cultures, across countries, across populations.

而且食物在《熊家餐馆》和《顶级厨师》这类电视节目中被神化了。

And also it's this right, like food is this thing that gets valorized in TV shows like The Bear and Top Chef and whatever.

但特别是在这个国家，食品生产体系存在严重缺陷，只为少数大集团利益服务，却以环境和食品生产者的利益为代价。

But in this country in particular, is such a flawed system for food production that serves really just a few large interests at the cost of the environment, at the cost of the people who produce the food.

因此我们作为消费者，已经被培养出期待食物极其廉价的心态。

And so there is just this kind of way where we, as a population have been trained to expect our food to be very cheap.

我说这话时也明白，我们正处在经济衰退边缘，许多人的生活面临经济不稳定的压力。

And I say that understanding we're like on the brink of a recession and a lot of people face like sort of economic precarity in their lives.

我并非主张所有东西都该涨价，但我们的消费观念里已经根植了'一个塔可应该这个价，汉堡应该那个价'的廉价预期。

So I'm not necessarily out here saying everything should be more expensive, but I am saying like, it's kind of just built in that we expect that we should be able to go get a taco for this much, a burger for this much, you know, and it should be cheap.

但当你退一步思考：参与食品生产的众多劳动者，他们如何靠这份收入维持生计和满足基本需求？

But when you sort of take a step back and think about it, you're like, how are the people, the many people who worked on producing this thing to get it to us making a living and paying for their basic needs.

我曾在美国最顶级的餐厅工作过一段时间。

And I worked in kind of the fanciest restaurant in America for a while.

直到奇迹般卖出书版权并有了网飞节目后，我的生活才实现财务稳定。

Like, I did not achieve financial stability in my own life until I had like a miracle situation and sold a book and had a Netflix show.

对吧？

Right?

就像我存在过一样，但经济也同样不稳定。

Like I was existed in But economic precarity as well.

就像我们生活的这个时代，像是晚期资本主义，一切只需按个按钮就能获得，一切都如此数字化和割裂，我们与制造过程如此疏离，几乎感受不到任何东西是为我们而制作的。

Like, in this moment that we live in and it's like late capitalism, like everything at the touch of a button available to us, everything's so digitized and separate, and we're so removed from the process of making and like having anything made for us.

我真心认为，食物和餐厅可能是我们日常生活中最后几处能体验到手工制作的地方了，对吧？

I really believe like food and restaurants are kind of one of the last vestiges in our daily lives of having an experience of something be handmade for you, right?

就像这种人与人之间的互动，有人对你说‘这是我为你做的’。

Like, and having this like human to human, like somebody I made this for you.

这种情况已经很少见了，我们生活中的大多数商品都是如此，对吧？

That doesn't happen anymore, like with so many of the goods in our life, right?

就像我们相距甚远，你不会见到制作你鞋子、衣服或耳机的人，对吧？

Like we're so far You don't meet the person who made your shoes or your clothes or your headphones, right?

但你与为你准备这盘食物的人仅一墙之隔。

But you are a room apart from the person who made you this plate of food.

有时他们会亲手递给你。

Sometimes they're handing it to you.

因此这就像是某种极其珍贵而美好的事物，在我们的生活中仍能略微触及。

And so it is kind of this like incredibly valuable and beautiful thing that we still have like a little bit of access to in our lives.

而令我如此悲伤的是，我们生活和世界中的各种力量都似乎执意要从我们身边夺走这点联系，甚至不让我们去珍惜它。

And I'm just so sad that every force in our lives and in the world is sort of hell bent on eradicating even that from us and letting us appreciate it.

我不知道，至少目前我还没有解决方案。

And I don't know, there's no solution that I know.

你知道吗，我不确定是否有答案。

You know, I don't know that there's an answer.

我并不是在批评任何人购买或食用食物。

I'm not criticizing anyone for buying or eating any food.

只是这让我有点心碎。

I just it kind of breaks my heart.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

这真是个令人沮丧的结尾。

It's a real depressing note.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我们不能就这样结束。

Well, we can't end there.

我们差不多已经说到这了。

We're kinda in there.

要不我们就到这里结束？

How about we end we end here?

为什么意大利面是肉丸最不应该待的地方？

Why is spaghetti the very last place a meatball belongs?

直接引用。

Direct quote.

这太搞笑了。

It's so funny.

确实如此。

It really is.

我的编辑说，我这个问题上写了这个，她说，温迪，是你问的那个问题。

My editor was like, we I had this on my question, and she was like, you asked that question, Wendy.

我们需要知道重点。

We need know important.

嗯，我引用那首歌的歌词来说：在意大利面上铺满奶酪。

Well and I say that quoting the song on top of spaghetti all covered with cheese.

对吧？

Right?

就像，我就说，不。

Like like, I'm just like, no.

不。

No.

你吃过一碗意大利面和肉丸吗？

Have you ever had a bowl of spaghetti and meatballs?

你吃过吗？

Have you ever had one?

在我们家，我们其实是用通心粉做的。

We at our house, we actually do it with macaroni.

是通心粉。

It's macaroni.

好了，我们开始吧。

Well, there we go.

因为这样你已经做出了更好的选择。

Because so already you're making a better choice.

我妈妈会非常高兴的。

My mom will be very happy.

这是奶奶的食谱。

It's a grandma's recipe.

好的。

Okay.

意大利面配肉丸这种形状组合简直疯狂。

Spaghetti is an insane choice of shape to eat with a meatball.

首先，肉丸就像这么大个东西。

For one thing, a meatball is like this huge thing.

你得想办法把它弄碎。

You have to sort of break it down.

意大利面有这么长，随便啦。

Spaghetti is this long, whatever.

你永远没法用叉子同时叉起适量的肉丸和意大利面。

You're never gonna get the right amount of meatball on the fork with the right amount of spaghetti.

这这这简直太糟糕了。

It's it's it's like it's bad.

所以我的意思是，如果你要做意大利面，选个更容易叉的形状，你懂我意思吧？

So either like I'm like, if you're gonna do pasta, choose a different shape that's like more amenable where like the the stabbing works for you know what I mean?

完全正确。

Exactly right.

或者可以配着一碗玉米粥吃。

And or or like eat it on a bowl of polenta.

搭配些烤面包一起吃。

Eat it with some grilled bread.

用你的时间做点别的吧。

Do something else with your time.

比如吃个肉丸三明治，但看在老天的份上千万别配意大利面。

Like, eat a meatball sandwich, but not on a spaghetti, please, for the life of me.

因为你想想，你面前有一整碗意大利面，然后呢？

Because also you're you're like, you have a whole bowl of spaghetti and then what?

上面就放三个肉丸子？

You have three meatballs on?

看起来就不对劲。

It just looks wrong.

你会觉得，

You're like,

我不知道。

I don't know.

好吧。

Alright.

快速问答环节。

Lightning round.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

好的。

Alright.

来吧。

Hit me.

现在进入古怪问题的闪电问答环节。

Lightning round of of oddball questions.

你为一本书做过的最危险的事是什么？

What is the most dangerous thing you've done for a book?

哦，我不知道。

Oh, I don't know.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我感受到闪电问答的压力了，现在真答不上来。

I I feel the pressure of the lightning, and I don't have an answer for you right now.

我是说，我做过各种危险的事，但都不建议效仿。

I mean, I do all sorts of dangerous things that I would never recommend.

而且，我可能吃过...你知道我做过最危险的事是什么吗？

And, I mean, I've probably eaten you know what I've probably done that's the most dangerous?

什么？

What?

在吃你自己试着煮的奶酪吗？

Eating the cheese that you tried to cook?

我就经常遇到这种情况，比如在想这瓶沙拉酱放了三个半月还能吃吗

So I've definitely had stuff where I'm like, is this salad dressing still good three and a

半月

half months

之后？

later?

别尝试。

Don't try it.

为什么不呢？

Why not?

我觉得我肯定经常拿自己的生命开玩笑，吃那些可能已经变质的食物。

Like, I think I've definitely taken my life into my own hands eating, like, potentially rotten food.

但话说回来，我现在不还活得好好的嘛，所以没关系。

But also, I'm still here, so it's fine.

没错。

Exactly.

确实。

Exactly.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Alright.

完成这句话。

Finish this sentence.

既然我知道了空白，我再也不会以同样的眼光看待我的空白了。

Now that I know blank, I'll never look at my blank the same way again.

哦，我是说，现在我知道了制作香草豆需要多长时间，我再也不会以同样的眼光看待香草豆了。

Oh, I mean, I think now that I know how long it takes to make a vanilla bean, I'll never look at a vanilla bean the same way again.

是啊。

Yeah.

你家里最有趣的物品是什么？

Funnest object sitting in your house?

哦，哦，哦，哦，我朋友给了我我朋友给了我最酷的东西。

Oh, oh, oh, oh, my friend gave me my friend gave me the coolest thing.

这是一套类似俄罗斯套娃的玩具，但不是俄罗斯娃娃，而是蔬菜。

It's a set of like Russian style dolls, but instead of being Russian, like dolls, there are vegetables.

比如有一个西兰花，然后是一个小白菜。

So like a it's like a broccoli and then a bok choy.

然后还有，我记不清了，哦，一个洋蓟，然后是一个黄瓜，接着是一个豌豆荚，最后是豌豆。

And then like, I can't remember what the oh, an artichoke and then a cucumber and then a pea pod and then the peas.

哦，

Oh,

太可爱了。

that's so cute.

太酷了。

It's so cool.

就像手工雕刻的木头。

It's like hand painted wood.

太美了。

It's so beautiful.

是啊。

Yeah.

真让人开心。

What a joy.

你做饭时犯过最严重的错误是什么？

Biggest mistake you've made while cooking?

我是说，有太多可以选的了。

I mean, there are million to choose from.

不过，有一次我...我不知道。

But, I mean, there was one time I I don't know.

这算是个错误吗？

Does this count as a mistake?

嗯，对，这确实是个错误。

Well, yeah, it is a mistake.

我当时很匆忙，就故意选了一把不太安全的刀来切冬南瓜。因为在工作的餐厅里，我一直用双柄刀——就是切帕尔马干酪轮那种笨重食材时用的刀，这样可以用锯切的方式而不是猛戳进去导致刀滑脱

I was in a rush and I chose to I like very consciously chose to use not the safest knife for cutting into a butternut squash because the knife in the restaurant where I worked, I always had a two handled knife, which is the knife you use when you cut into a wheel of Parmesan or anything sort of unwieldy because that way you're seesawing your way into it instead of jamming a knife in that could slip out

噢，确实。

Oh, yes.

然后伤到你。

And injure you.

不知为何，我们那把大型双手柄刀失踪了好几天，这很奇怪，我也觉得不对劲，甚至在心里记了一笔要买把新的，免得有人受伤。

So our for some reason, our large two handled knife had gone missing for a few days, which is a very weird and so I was too and I had even made a mental note, like, get a new one of those before someone hurts themselves.

但当时我很匆忙，没有选择第二安全的刀（那本该是很大的那把），而是抓了最近的小刀，结果切南瓜时刺中了自己的手，不得不做手术。

But then I was in a rush and I just instead of choosing the next safest knife, which would have been a very big one, I just grabbed the closest one, which was little, and I went into my butternut squash and I stabbed myself in the hand and I had to have surgery.

天啊。

Oh my god.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我现在没事了。

I'm fine now.

但是，是的，那确实非常激烈。

But, yeah, it was very intense.

我真的，是的。

I truly yeah.

那非常激烈。

It was very intense.

哇。

Wow.

那是个大错误。

That was a big mistake.

那是个错误。

It was a mistake.

这是真的吗？

Is it true?

因为我做了件蠢事，试图用这个切百吉饼，结果不得不去急诊。

Because I did a, I had to go to emergency for trying to cut a bagel with, this.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我听说百吉饼和牛油果是最常见的两种...我认识一位手外科医生，他说百吉饼和牛油果是导致手部受伤最常见的两种东西。

And I've heard the bagel and the avocado are two of the most, I knew a hand surgeon, and he said bagels and avocados were, like, the two of the most sort of common injuries Yes.

这些伤者最后都不得不去做手部手术。

That brought people to hand surgery.

非常感谢你，莎薇塔。

Thank you so much, Shavitas.

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

真贴心。

So lovely.

你太棒了。

You're so great.

嗯。

Yep.

是啊。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的，没错。

It's, yeah.

我非常感谢您的时间和您的工作，还有您的新书，它真的太棒了。

I really appreciate your time and your work and your new book, and it's really fabulous.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我当时确实在想，我是科学的一方还是对立的一方？

I definitely was like, am I the science or am I the versus?

因为我不是科学家。

Because I'm not a scientist.

是啊。

Yeah.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

和你聊天很愉快，温迪。

Nice talking to you, Wendy.

很高兴和你交谈。

Lovely to talk to you.

这位是获奖厨师西敏·诺斯拉特。

That was the award winning cook, Simeen Nosrat.

她的新书名为《美好的事物》。

Her new book is called good things.

我是温迪·祖克曼。

I'm Wendy Zuckerman.

下次再聊。

Back to you next time.