本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
你好。
Hi.
我是罗斯·里姆勒，代替温迪·祖克曼为您主持，您正在收听《科学诗篇》。
I'm Rose Rimler filling in for Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Verses.
今天，我们要讨论催泪瓦斯，以及移民与海关执法局的突袭行动对人们造成的科学影响。
Today, we're talking about tear gas, and we're talking about ICE raids and what they do to people according to science.
我们谈论这些，是因为美国明尼阿波利斯目前正在发生的事情。
And we're talking about this stuff because of what's going on in Minneapolis in The US right now.
几周前，美国政府派遣了大量移民和海关执法官员前往该市。
A few weeks ago, the US government sent in a bunch of immigration and customs enforcement agents to the city.
他们称之为‘有史以来最大规模的移民行动’。
They called it, quote, the largest immigration operation ever.
还有边境巡逻人员参与其中。
There's border patrol agents involved too.
我们听到了各种人以各种方式被拘留的消息。
And we're hearing about all kinds of people being detained in all kinds of ways.
新视频显示，一位祖父在我们遭遇严寒时，只披着一条毯子、穿着短裤和拖鞋走出了家门。
New video shows a grandfather walked out of his home wearing just a blanket, shorts, and slippers during our bitter cold blast.
他的家人说他是美国公民。
His family says he's a US citizen.
当地一个学区发出警报，称有四名学生被ICE拘留。
A local school district whose sounding alarms they say about four of their students taken into ICE custody.
这家人的律师和学校官员表示，ICE利用一名五岁男孩敲响他自家的门，以引出其他家庭成员。
The family's attorney and school officials say ICE used a five year old boy to knock on the door of his own home to lure out other family members.
几周以来，明尼苏达州民众一直在反抗。
And for weeks, Minnesotans have been pushing back.
他们组织游行和抗议活动，拍摄这些特工的行为，而联邦特工则对这一切进行了暴力镇压。
They're organizing marches and protests, taking video of what these agents are doing, and federal agents have cracked down violently on all this.
有报告和视频显示，他们向人群使用催泪瓦斯和烟雾，画面中特工直接向人们的眼睛喷洒这些物质。
There's reports and video of them using tear gas and smoke on crowds, images of agents spraying people directly in the eyes with this stuff.
到目前为止，他们在明尼阿波利斯已经开枪射伤三人，其中两人死亡。
And they've shot three people in Minneapolis so far, killing two of them.
政府声称，他们杀死的人对特工构成了某种威胁，但现场的证据和视频并不支持这一说法。
The government has said that the people they've killed posed some kind of threat to their agents, though the evidence and videos from the scene don't back that up.
我们采访了一些亲历者，其中包括一位我们称作Tee的人，他已经在明尼阿波利斯生活了十多年。
We talked to some folks who have been there, including this guy that we're gonna call Tee who's lived in Minneapolis for more than decade.
我们在24日与他交谈，那天特工杀害了一名名叫亚历克斯·普雷蒂的抗议者。
We talked to him on the twenty fourth, the day that agents killed a protester named Alex Preti.
我被窗外一阵阵鸣笛声和直升机的轰鸣声吵醒。
I woke up to a bunch of honking and helicopter noises outside of my apartment.
于是我看了看手机，看到了所有的最新消息。
So looked at my just looked at my phone and saw all the updates.
这名男子被杀的地方离Tee住的地方只有几个街区远。
This man was killed just a few blocks away from where Tee lives.
那是在明尼阿波利斯举行大规模总罢工的第二天。
It was the day after a big general strike in Minneapolis.
我们昨天刚刚经历了一场大规模的经济停摆。
We just we just had a huge economic shutdown last yesterday.
一切都停摆了。
Everything was shut down.
一大群人涌到了市中心。
A bunch of people showed up downtown.
然后第二天，他们杀害了一名男子。
And then next the next day, they they they murdered a man.
我真的不知道我们还能做些什么了。
Like, I I don't know what we're supposed to do anymore.
Tee 告诉我们他在这过去几周里在城市里目睹的一切。
Tee told us about what he's witnessed in the city these past few weeks.
他参加了多次抗议活动，并见证了事态的升级。
He's joined several protests, and he has seen things escalate.
我不愿使用人们总爱用的那个词。
I hate to use the term that people always use.
哦，这简直像个战区。
Oh, it's a war zone.
这简直就像一个战区，而且真的让人有这种感觉。
It's a war zone, but, like, it really felt like that.
当你在自己社区里散步，看到人们大喊大叫、吹着哨子，接着就是一片催泪瓦斯的浓雾，这真的非常震撼。
It's really jarring to, you know, walk around your community and seeing people screaming, blowing their whistles, and then just clouds of tear gas.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，你知道的？
Like, it it it you know?
然后，他们还在向人开枪。
And then and then, you know, they're shooting people too.
老实说，这真的感觉就像一个反乌托邦式的战区。
Like, it it does honestly feel like it does honestly feel like a dystopian war zone.
所以今天，我们要谈谈那里正在发生的事。
So today, we're gonna talk about what's happening there.
我们要深入探讨一下催泪瓦斯的相关科学，因为科学家们正在研究这个问题，而这不仅仅是明尼阿波利斯的情况。
We're gonna dive into some science around tear gas, which scientists are looking at because it's not just Minneapolis.
这种物质在全球各地都被用于人群，我们开始越来越多地了解到它可能对我们造成的长期影响。
The stuff is being used on people all over the world, and we're starting to find out more about what it might be doing to us, like what the long term effects could be.
此外，我们还会讨论移民权利本身，以及它们如何影响社区中的人们。
Plus, we'll talk about immigration rights themselves and what they can do to people in the community.
这些内容将在广告后继续为您呈现。
That is all coming up after the break.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是罗斯·里姆勒。
This is Rose Rimler.
今天，我们要讨论的是在明尼阿波利斯大量ICE特工涌入期间，人们所接触到的物质。
And today, we're talking about the stuff that people are getting exposed to amid this huge influx of ICE agents in Minneapolis.
本期节目的这一部分，我邀请到了我们的编辑布莱斯·特雷尔。
And I'm here for this part of the episode with our editor, Blythe Terrell.
嗨，布莱斯。
Hi, Blythe.
嘿，罗斯。
Hey, Rose.
所以，我想我们一开始就应该说明，在美国，我们每个人都有抗议的权利。
So, I think we should probably say out of the gate that in The US, you know, we've all got the right to protest.
我们有和平集会的权利。
We've got the right to peacefully assemble.
这写在宪法里。
It's in the constitution.
嗯。
Mhmm.
人们有权拍摄公共场合发生的事情，比如警察、移民局官员或其他联邦官员的行为，只要你不干扰他们的工作。
And people are allowed to film stuff that's going on in public, like what police officers or ICE agents or other federal agents are doing as long as you don't interfere with what they're up to.
对。
Right.
国土安全部表示，他们正在保护其官员免受暴徒侵害，但报道称情况总体上是和平的。
So the Department of Homeland Security has said it is protecting its agents from rioters, although reports are that things are generally peaceful.
是的。
Mhmm.
但我们看到明尼阿波利斯发生的情况，这些特工使用了大量武力，反应非常激烈。
But what we've been seeing, happening in Minneapolis is a lot of force, a lot of, like, hardcore responses from these agents.
对吧？
Right?
有很多报道称，移民与海关执法局对正在抗议或只是旁观、拍摄视频的人使用了催泪瓦斯。
There's lots of reports of ICE using tear gas against people who are protesting or who are just, like, observing, taking video and stuff.
是的。
Mhmm.
我们还从蒂那里听到了类似的说法，他是我们之前采访过的一名抗议者，你在节目开头听过他的发言。
And we also heard that from Tee, who is one of the protesters we talked to, who you heard from at the beginning of the show.
他们确实向那里发射了大量催泪瓦斯。
They they definitely unloaded a lot of tear gas out there.
你有接触到催泪瓦斯吗？
Were you exposed to it?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没有。
No.
我一直在呕吐，吐得满身都是。
I was puking and throwing up all over myself.
你在呕吐。
You're puking and throwing up.
很多人都在干呕。
A lot of people were retching.
那里有些人是有所准备的。
There were there were people out there that were prepared for it.
他们带了防毒面具之类的装备。
They had, gas masks and stuff.
很明显，他们处理得更好，但也有一些人就是直接那样。
Obviously, they were handling it better, but there were also people just like, yeah, straight up.
我们都只是在咳嗽和呕吐，每天晚上我的整张脸都沾满了黏液。
We were all just coughing and puking and nightly my whole face was covered in in in mucus.
所以，是的，我的猜测是，这确实能引发很多糟糕的事情，这正是我们接下来要讨论的第一件事。
So, yeah, I mean, to your guess, it turns out, can do a lot of messed up stuff, which is the first thing we're gonna kinda talk about.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这之前在节目中也提到过。
And this has come up on the show before.
实际上，我们在2020年就讨论过这个话题。
Actually, we talked about it back in 2020.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那是新冠疫情最严重的时候，人们因为一名警察谋杀了一名黑人男子乔治·弗洛伊德而抗议，这件事也发生在明尼阿波利斯。
It was the height of COVID, and people were protesting after a police officer murdered George Floyd, who's a black man, also in Minneapolis.
是的
Yeah.
也在明尼阿波利斯。
Also in Minneapolis.
对吧？
Right?
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对。
Yeah.
实际上，正是在那时，我们接下来要介绍的这位科学家开始对催泪瓦斯产生了兴趣。
And that is actually also when this scientist that we're starting with got interested in tear gas.
所以我的名字是珍妮弗·布朗。
So my name is Jennifer Brown.
我拥有神经科学博士学位和明尼苏达大学的法律学位。
I have a PhD in neuroscience and a law degree from the University of Minnesota.
当时，珍妮弗正在明尼阿波利斯攻读她的博士学位。
So Jennifer was actually getting her PhD in Minneapolis at the time.
她和她的神经科学极客研究生朋友们，一直在观看乔治·弗洛伊德之死引发的抗议活动，看到一团团催泪瓦斯笼罩着抗议者。
And she and her, like, neuroscience nerd grad friends, they were watching these protests around George Floyd's death, and, you know, they were seeing these, like, clouds of tear gas enveloping protesters.
于是他们决定要做点什么。
And they decided that they wanted to do something.
我们彼此交谈时说，我们是博士候选人。
And talking amongst ourselves, we said, well, we're in we're PhD candidates.
我们懂得如何做研究。
We're we know how to research.
我们懂得如何写作。
We know how to write.
我们对催泪瓦斯了解多少？
What do we know about tear gas?
这最初是朋友间的一次对话。
It started as a conversation among friends.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，罗斯，就像许多朋友间的对话一样，这促使他们进行了大量研究，查阅了学术论文。
So, Rose, like many conversations among friends, this led to them doing a bunch of research and looking at academic papers.
你知道，他们想弄清楚的是，我们到底对催泪瓦斯了解多少？
And, you know, what they wanted to find out was, yeah, what do we know about tear gas?
他们很快注意到的一件事是，这种物质的一些历史背景。
And one thing that caught their attention pretty early on is just a little bit about the history of this stuff.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为催泪瓦斯以某种形式已经存在了一个多世纪。
Because, you know, tear gas has been around kind of in some form for more than a century.
所以，它最早在第一次世界大战中被记录用于战争。
So it was first documented in war in World War one.
我认为大多数人会记得高中历史课上讲过的芥子气，以及它在战壕中造成的可怕后果。
I think people most people will remember their high school history classes talking about mustard gas in the trenches and how terrible that was.
全球社会很快意识到，升级化学武器对所有人都非常不利。
Everyone in the global community pretty quickly realized that escalating chemical warfare was a really bad idea for everybody.
因此，国际上有一项禁止在战争中使用化学武器的公约，有许多签署国。
And so there's a convention against the use of chemical weapons in war, has a lot of signatories.
美国是其中之一。
The US is one of them.
所以，在美国，战争中使用催泪瓦斯和其他化学武器是非法的。
So The US, it is illegal to use tear gas and other chemical weapons in war.
然而，对国内执法有一个例外。
However, there is an exception for domestic policing.
所以我们不能在战争中对敌人使用它，但和平时期用来对付我们自己的人民却没问题。
So we we can't use it on enemies at in wartime, but cool to use it against our own people in peacetime.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yep.
这就是我们现在的制度。
That's the system that we have.
对。
Yeah.
没什么可记的。
No notes.
继续。
Continue.
没什么可记的。
No notes.
没错。
Right.
我的意思是，你看。
And I mean, look.
我也问过詹妮弗关于这件事。
I asked Jennifer about that too.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，当你看到那一部分时，你有什么想法？
I mean, what did you think when you saw that piece of it?
吓坏了。
Horrified.
然后我说，为什么？
And then but then I said, why?
是的。
Yeah.
詹妮弗实际上告诉我，当美国和所有这些国家同意不在战争中使用这类化学物质后，并不是每个人都把他们所有的化学物质，你知道的，这些可能用作这类武器的各种物质，直接倒掉。
And Jennifer actually told me that after The US and all these countries agreed not to use these types of chemicals in war, it wasn't like everyone just, like, dumped out all of their chemicals, you know, these various things that they might use as weapons as these types of weapons.
对吧？
Right?
并不是每个人只是随手扔掉了。
It's not like everybody just tossed it.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但这些化学物质最初被宣传为类似人群控制之类的非致命性选择，后来开始被卖给警察部门等地。
But these chemicals that we had started being marketed as, like, nonlethal options for stuff like crowd control, and then they started getting sold to places like police departments.
你知道，有时候浪费一些东西也没关系。
You know, sometimes it's okay to waste stuff.
你不必把每一件小东西都重新利用。
You don't have to repurpose every little thing.
对。
Right.
就接受这项产品开发的沉没成本吧。
Just accept the sunk cost of the development of an item.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，这基本上就是这些东西的起源故事。
So, I mean, that's kind of where that's sort of like the or, you know, the the origin story of some of this stuff.
现在我想谈谈关于催泪瓦斯的一些情况，比如我们现在在街头看到的催泪瓦斯到底是什么，它实际上会对人体造成什么影响。
And now I wanna talk a little bit about what, like, what this tear gas is, you know, what we have out there in the streets today, what it can actually do to you.
催泪瓦斯是一个统称。
Tear gas is an umbrella term.
首先，这些化学物质大多数并不是气体。
Most of these chemicals, first off, are not gases.
它们是以固体形式存在的，然后被气溶胶化，变成可以广泛扩散和喷洒的形式。
They are chemicals that exist in solid form that are then aerosolized and made into a form that can be widely dispersed and sprayed.
为了做到这一点，你通常需要将它们与其他多种化学物质混合，或者加入某种助燃剂。
And to do that, you usually mix them with a lot of other chemicals or you put some some kind of accelerant.
你必须想办法把它们从固态转化为气态。
You have to get it from a solid form into a gas form somehow.
是的。
Yeah.
就像她所说的，固体物质被压入罐中，然后发射到人群中，释放成气溶胶。
So like she said, solid stuff sort of squished into canisters can then get fired out into crowds and released as this aerosol.
我们曾在明尼阿波利斯采访过另一位抗议者。
We talked to another protester about this in Minneapolis.
我们称她为A。
We're gonna call her a.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她告诉我们，当这些罐子在街道上四周爆炸时，是什么感觉。
And she told us what it's like to sort of see these canisters kind of all around you in the street.
他们说，毫无预警地左右向我们发射催泪瓦斯。
They said just launching tear gas at us left and right, on the streets with no warning.
你可能只是站在那里安静地、和平地抗议，但他们却突然冲上来，扔出任何他们手头的东西。
You can just be standing there protesting silently, peacefully, however they're just running up and throwing whatever they have.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，她确实发给我一些照片，画面就是这样的。
I mean, an a actually sent me some photos where it's just like this.
你可以看到一大片云状物悬停在建筑物之间。
You can see sort of this massive cloud just kind of hovering between buildings.
而且
And
其中一些可能是烟雾。
some of that could be smoke.
比如，也有报道称，只有烟雾，没有催泪瓦斯。
Like, there's also reports of, like, just smoke and not tear gas.
但显然，空气中充满了这些东西。
But there's obviously, like, all of this stuff in the air.
我问她，他们能不能逃离这些气体。
And I I asked her, like, you know, if if they can get away from it.
你当时身处一片云雾之中。
You were in a cloud.
当时没有人奔跑。
There was no running.
风四处吹拂。
The wind was going everywhere.
你并不是在奔跑着逃离它。
You weren't running to get out of it.
幸运的是，有几家店铺开着门，帮助人们，甚至护送我们进屋，因为你在合理的时间内根本不可能跑出它的范围。
And thank God a few of those businesses were open and helping people and, like, escorting us inside because you weren't outrunning it in a reasonable amount of time.
它横跨了好几个街区。
It was several city blocks wide.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这非常可怕。
It's very scary.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
我还进一步问了珍妮弗，关于那种感觉具体是怎样的。
And I also asked Jennifer a little bit more just about, like, how it feels exactly.
如果我被催泪瓦斯击中，会发生什么？
If I get hit with tear gas, what happens?
是的。
Yes.
那你平时会用辣椒做饭吗？
So do you cook with hot peppers ever?
做辣酱、辣椒片。
Make chili, jalapeno.
你有没有过切完辣椒后忘记洗手，不小心摸到眼睛或鼻子，突然感到眼睛灼烧、发痒、流泪、鼻涕直流的感觉？
Have you ever forgotten to wash your hands after you cut a pepper and accidentally touch your eyes or your nose, and all of a sudden you feel this burning, itching, eye running, snot dripping down your face sensation?
可能吧。
May or maybe.
也许吧。
Maybe.
只是也许吧，珍妮弗。
Just maybe, Jennifer.
也许吧。
Maybe.
也许我们都做过这种事。
Maybe we've all done this.
也许吧。
Maybe.
这和接触催泪瓦斯时的反应类似，因为催泪瓦斯中的化学物质，正如我所说，激活了你体内与辣椒中的辣椒素相同的痛觉受体。
That is this a similar type of reaction as what it would feel like to be exposed to tear gas because the chemicals, again, the broad umbrella of tear gas are activating the same receptors, the pain receptors in your body as that chemical that's in the jalapeno, which is capsaicin.
所以是的。
So yeah.
我的意思是，当然，接触催泪瓦斯的感觉更糟糕，嗯。
I mean, of course, exposed to tear gas feels worse Mhmm.
比那个更强烈。
Than that, like, stronger.
而且不仅仅是那种茶，我们之前提到的另一位抗议者，就是开头那个我们听到的人，他说当你被击中时，还能感觉到一种颗粒感。
It's also not only that tea, the pro one of the other protester we talked to, the one we heard from at the top, he said that you can also kind of feel like this grittiness when it hits you.
感觉黏黏的。
It felt sticky.
我不确定。
I don't know.
就像眼睛里有灰尘之类的东西，一种实实在在的东西。
Like, felt like there was, like, dust or whatever in my eyes, a physical thing.
感觉刺痒。
Like, it it was scratchy.
所以接下来我们来谈谈这种颗粒、这种粉末里面到底有什么，催泪弹中可以使用多种不同的化学物质，也就是活性成分。
And so to go into sort of more of what's inside this grit, this powder, there are a bunch of different chemicals that can be used in tear gas, like active chemicals.
其中一种常见的成分被称为CS。
So one common one is known as CS.
还有一种叫CN的，还有辣椒喷雾里的OC。
There's one that's called CN, something called OC in pepper spray.
所以这些就是让你眼睛难受的成分吗？
So these are the ingredients that make your eyes hurt?
是的。
Yeah.
这就像詹妮弗提到的那种辛辣感和流泪的物质。
This is like the the stuff that can cause that peppery feeling that Jennifer was talking about and the tearing up.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
但有一个棘手的问题是，詹妮弗说很难确切知道人们究竟被用了什么。
But one thing that is tricky is that Jennifer said that it's really tough to know exactly what's getting used on people.
当我周六和蒂谈话时，他告诉我这些。
And when I talked to Tee on Saturday, here's what he told me.
他们今天用的任何东西都特别糟糕。
Whatever they're using today is really bad.
真的吗？
Really?
所以是的。
So yeah.
感觉更糟了。
It feels worse.
是的。
Yeah.
就像是啊。
Like Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
所以呢？
So?
我的意思是，就是那种，我的意思是，失明了，完全看不见了。
I mean, it's just like the the I mean, the blindness, like, straight up couldn't see.
我以前也被催泪瓦斯熏过，但那时候还能眯着眼睛什么的，各种办法都试过。
Like, I've been tear gassed before and then and been able to, like, you know, squint and whatever, all this stuff.
我真的什么也看不见，当时很害怕自己会永久失明。
I I genuinely couldn't see, and I was I was scared that I was losing my visibility.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我问他持续了多久。
I mean, I asked him for how long.
他说大概过了七到八分钟才重新看得见。
He said it was, like, seven or eight minutes before he could see again.
那可够久的。
That's a long time.
对。
Yeah.
他有
He had
有人帮他往眼睛里倒水之类的。
to have people help him sort of pouring water in his eyes and stuff.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们其实也不知道，那次对他来说是不是因为化学物质更强或者成分不同而更严重。
And we don't really know if it was, like, worse for him that time because the chemical was stronger or the chemical was different.
有可能他当时离得更近，或者以不同的方式暴露在其中。
It's possible that he was, like, closer to it or was, like, exposed in a different way.
你知道的吧？
You know?
我们不知道。
We don't know.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们确实联系过ICE，想问问他们在现场使用的是什么，但没收到他们的回复。
And we did reach out to ICE to ask them, like, what they're using on the ground and didn't hear back from them.
是的。
Mhmm.
但基本上，我们知道这些东西会导致我们所说的症状，比如流泪、咳嗽，甚至可能呕吐。
But, basically, we know this stuff can cause, you know, the symptoms we're talking about, the tearing up, the coughing, even maybe vomiting.
你知道，有报告称它会影响你的心脏和肺部。
You know, there's reports it can affect your heart, your lungs.
T告诉我们，当它接触到他的皮肤时，感觉几乎像在灼烧。
And t told us that where it hits his skin, it can feel like it's burning almost.
A告诉我们，它几乎像皮疹一样。
And a told us that it almost feels like a rash.
当它接触到你的皮肤时，简直就像过敏反应。
When it gets on your skin, right, it's almost like an allergic reaction.
它会刺痛。
It stings.
它会灼烧。
It burns.
这不仅仅是催泪瓦斯。
It it's not just tear gas.
它简直就像有人朝你泼洒弱酸一样。
It's it's like a a light acid almost being thrown at you.
但这还不是最糟糕的部分。
And and that's not even the worst part.
最可怕的是它进入你的肺部和眼睛时。
It's when it gets in your lungs and your eyes.
然后还有几张照片，显示人们直接被催泪瓦斯喷中眼睛，催泪弹直接朝他们脸上喷射。
And then there was a photo several photos of people getting tear gassed directly in the eyes, like the canisters being sprayed into their face.
我们对这种情况了解多少？
Do we know anything about that?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，了解得不多。
I mean, not a ton.
所以，你能大致推断出，你被近距离直接喷到了。
So, you know, you can sort of intuit, right, that, like, you're getting sprayed super close.
你的眼睛里进了大量的化学物质。
There's a ton of it in your eyes.
你可以推断出，这种影响会是……嗯。
Like, you could intuit that the But effects would be Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为我们并没有太多关于这方面的科学研究，能确切了解。
But I don't think we just have a ton of research, scientific research on that that we know for sure.
嗯。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
所以我想谈谈，这种物质为什么会让我们身体感到疼痛的实际机制。
So I wanna talk a little bit about, like, the actual mechanism of why this causes pain in our body.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
当这些化学物质被喷洒时，它们可以附着在我们身体某些部位（比如眼睛和皮肤）的蛋白质上，从而向大脑发送信号，被解读为疼痛，特别是被解读为灼热感和疼痛。
So the stuff when it gets sprayed, these chemicals, they can bind to these proteins on our body in places like our eyes and our skin, and that can then send a message to our brain that's interpreted as pain and particularly that, you know, can be interpreted as heat and pain.
我曾和卡莉·塔迪斯讨论过一些这些细节。
I talked about some of these details with Carly Tadis.
她是一位神经科学家，也是珍妮弗的合著者之一。
She is a neuroscientist, and she's also one of Jennifer's coauthors.
从生理学角度来说，当你暴露在催泪瓦斯中时，激活的是你的伤害感受器。
When we're talking physiologically, so when you're exposed to tear gas, what it is activating is your nociceptors.
本质上，伤害感受器是分布在你的皮肤以及内脏中的受体。
Essentially, your nociceptors are the receptors that are in your skin, and they're also in your organs.
它们向大脑传递信息，表明损伤已经发生或可能即将发生。
And they communicate to your brain that either damage has occurred or might occur.
所以，警告的小警报器正在响起。
And so warning, little alarm bells are going off.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
它们就是小警报器。
They're little alarm bells.
因此，伤害感受器对许多不同的刺激模式都非常敏感。
And so nociceptors are really responsive to a lot of different modalities.
所以它们基本上可以接收
So they can basically take in a
各种不同类型的感觉。
bunch of different types of sensations.
没错。
Exactly.
它们会向你的大脑传递信号，让你意识到自己割伤了——这和撞到门框、被炉子烫伤都不一样。
And they communicate it to your brain so that you kind of know, right, that I've cut myself, which is different from walking into a doorframe, which is different from burning myself on a stove.
事实证明，这种特定的受体在我们的鼻子、喉咙以及我们经常接触到催泪瓦斯的部位大量存在。
And it turns out that the receptor this particular receptor, we've got a bunch of them in our nose and in our throat and the places where we're often encountering tear gas.
嗯。
Mhmm.
情况可能会变得非常严重。
So it can get really bad.
它还会引发大量炎症，导致你身体出现强烈的免疫反应。
It can also cause a bunch of inflammation, like this big immune response in your body.
以下是珍妮弗对此的描述。
Here is Jennifer talking about that.
这会导致你的喉咙和鼻子肿胀。
So that's causing swelling in your throat, in your nose.
当这些部位肿胀时，会发生什么？
What happens when those things swell?
它们会闭合，导致你无法呼吸。
They shut, and you can't breathe.
人们不停地咳嗽。
And you have people coughing and coughing.
也有人报告说，他们在非常狭小的空间里接触到了这种催泪瓦斯。
There have also been reports of people being in, like, really tight spaces with this stuff, with this tear gas.
甚至包括婴儿。
Even babies.
有一个关于一个家庭的故事。
There was a story about a family.
他们说当时正在车里，执法人员把一个催泪瓦斯罐滚到了车底下，罐子爆炸了，整个车厢都被气体填满。
They said they were in their car and that agents rolled a tear gas canister under the car, and it went off, and it, like, filled up their car.
车里有好几个孩子，包括一个六个月大的婴儿。
They had multiple kids in there, including a six month old baby.
是的。
Yeah.
婴儿呼吸困难。
And the baby was having trouble breathing.
他们不得不进行心肺复苏。
They had to give CPR.
他们不得不去医院。
They had to go to the hospital.
天啊。
Oh my god.
所以我问了珍妮弗这件事。
So I asked Jennifer about that.
这些催泪弹不应用于封闭空间，因为那里会没有足够的新鲜空气可供呼吸。
These are not meant to be used in enclosed spaces because there will be no air good air left to breathe.
已经报告了死亡案例。
So deaths have been reported.
如果你在封闭空间里待得太久，接触催泪瓦斯，可能会死亡。
If you are left too long in an enclosed space with tear gas, you can die.
但这其实说明了
But this, like, speaks to
珍妮弗提到的关于催泪瓦斯的另一件事。
one of the other things that Jennifer pointed out about tear gas.
我们其实对很多科学数据一无所知，部分原因是许多关于催泪瓦斯对人体影响的研究，都来自军队中作为训练一部分而接触过催泪瓦斯的人。
So there's a lot of science that we just don't have, and that's partly because a lot of the studies of, like, tear gas's effects on people are from people in the military who are exposed as a part of training.
所以，这很可能是特定人群——年轻、健康，而且大概主要是男性。
So, like, that's likely to be a particular group of people, young, healthy, probably predominantly dudes.
是的。
Mhmm.
可不是六个月大的婴儿。
Not six month old babies.
没错。
Right.
事实上，我们对这些东西的了解实在太少了。
In fact, I mean, there's just so much we don't know about this stuff.
比如，我们有一些数据，知道在实验室里用这些化学物质杀死动物需要多少剂量。
Like, we have some data on how much it takes to kill animals in the lab with these chemicals.
是的。
Mhmm.
但我们对它对人体的影响知之甚少，而这正是珍妮弗和她的同事最终撰写的一篇论文的主要焦点。
But there's a ton that we don't know about, like, what it does to people, which is actually the main focus of one of the papers that Jennifer and her colleagues ended up writing.
这篇论文探讨的是催泪瓦斯是否会对人产生长期影响。
It's about whether tear gas can affect you over the long term.
是的。
Mhmm.
因为有一种观点认为，当你被催泪瓦斯袭击时。
Because there's this idea that you get tear gassed.
那种感觉非常糟糕。
It feels terrible.
你会在当时出现一系列严重的症状。
You have these awful symptoms in the moment.
但几个小时后，你知道，你开始感觉好些了。
But a few hours later, you know, you, like, start to feel better.
你会从这些影响中恢复过来。
You recover from that stuff.
没错。
Right.
但一些研究指出，情况并不总是如此。
But some research is suggesting that, you know, that's not always true.
举个例子，人们被这些催泪弹击中，导致受伤、失明，甚至死亡。
I mean, for one thing, people get hit with these canisters leading to injuries, blindness, even death.
此外，吸入气体后，有报告称会出现持续的呼吸系统问题和神经系统问题。
And then from the gas, there are reports of ongoing respiratory problems, neurological problems.
事件发生后，人们还报告出现了心理健康问题，如创伤后应激障碍。
And then after these events, people report mental health issues, PTSD.
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yeah.
但这很合理。
But which makes sense.
对吧？
Right?
比如，这不仅仅是催泪瓦斯的问题。
Like, it's not just the tear gas.
如果你正在经历催泪瓦斯，很可能还伴随着其他许多因素，这些因素可能会加剧心理健康问题。
There's a if you're experiencing tear gas, there's probably a lot of other things going on that are gonna potentially contribute to mental health issues.
对吧？
Right?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但这里引起我注意的一点是，我们实际上正越来越多地看到一些你可能想不到的健康问题报告。
But one of the things that caught my eye here is that we're actually starting to see more and more reports of health stuff that, like, you might not expect.
展开剩余字幕（还有 301 条）
嗯。
Mhmm.
例如，研究人员在2020年抗议活动后对俄勒冈州波特兰的民众进行了一项大规模调查。
So for example, researchers did a big survey of people in Portland, Oregon after the twenty twenty protest.
我不确定你是否记得。
I don't know if you remember.
在乔治·弗洛伊德被杀后，波特兰连续数周都有抗议活动。
There were, like, weeks and weeks of protests in Portland after George Floyd's murder.
是的。
Yeah.
于是，许多人报告称，症状在数小时甚至数天后才出现。
And so a bunch of people reported symptoms that showed up hours or even days later.
我觉得特别有趣的一点是，很多人报告了胃肠道问题，比如腹泻或腹痛。
And one of the things that I thought was really interesting is that a lot of people reported gastrointestinal stuff, like diarrhea or cramping.
因此，大约有近百分之三十表示有延迟性问题或后遗症的人，经历了胃肠道方面的症状。
So about, like, almost thirty percent of the people who said that they had some delayed issues, some delayed effects, they experienced GI stuff.
好的。
Okay.
于是我问珍妮弗，这可能是什么原因造成的？
And so I asked Jennifer, like, what could explain this?
她说，我们其实并不清楚。
And she said, we don't really know.
但是
But
哦，对啊。
Oh, right.
你正在引发全身范围内的强烈免疫反应和炎症反应。
You're causing a massive immune response, inflammatory response, should say, through all parts of your body.
如果你知道，催泪瓦斯进入了你的口腔，而你没有漱口并吐掉水，反而吞下去试图把它弄出来，我不知道。
If you're you know, it's in your tear gas is in your mouth and you don't flush your mouth out and then spit the water out and you're swallowing it trying to get it out, I don't know.
我的意思是，是的，它不仅扩散在空气中，也进入了体内。
I mean, yeah, it's diffused not just in the air but in the body.
所以我想这可能会影响各种系统。
So I guess it could affect all kinds of systems.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，没错，有一件奇怪的事就是出现的肠胃问题。
So, yeah, that was one thing that was strange, the, like, gastro stuff that was coming up.
但还有另一个症状，罗斯，我觉得更令人惊讶。
But there was this other symptom, Rose, that I found even more surprising.
所以，这项研究中有很多人，以及其他一些类似的观察性调查研究都报告称，在接触催泪瓦斯后，他们的月经周期完全乱了。
So a lot of people in this study and some other observational sort of survey studies like this have reported that their menstruation was all messed up after they got tear gas.
我刚才提到的那项俄勒冈州的大规模调查，有将近九百人报告称在接触后出现月经问题或乳房触痛。
That big survey out of Oregon I was just talking about, about nine hundred people reported menstrual problems or breast tenderness after they were exposed.
他们报告的症状包括痉挛、不规则出血、出血量增多、出血时间延长。
They were reporting stuff like cramping and spotting, more bleeding, longer bleeding.
还有另一篇论文，也是一项调查，询问了有子宫的人在接触后是否出现月经或乳房症状，该论文发现超过百分之八十的人表示确实出现了。
And there was another paper, also a survey, that asked people with uteruses if they had menstrual or breast symptoms after being exposed, and that paper found that more than eighty percent of them said they had.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们知道很多因素都会影响月经。
I mean and we know a lot of stuff affects menstruation.
对吧？
Right?
比如，压力就会影响。
Like, stress can affect it.
但可能还有其他因素在起作用。
But there could be other stuff happening too.
正如珍妮弗提到的，催泪弹里还有许多其他化学物质，这让机制的问题变得复杂。
As Jennifer mentioned, there's a bunch of other junk in tear gas, which, like, makes the mechanism question Mhmm.
更难回答了。
Even harder to answer.
激活这些受体的化学物质并不是催泪弹中唯一的成分。
The chemicals that activate those receptors are not the only things that are in tear gas.
对吧？
Right?
我提到过，为了将其制成气体，你必须添加大量其他物质。
I mentioned you have to add a whole bunch of other stuff to it in order to make it into a gas.
其中含有许多其他有害化学物质，已知这些物质会导致癌症，具有毒性。
There are so many other nasty chemicals in there that have been known to cause cancer, that are known to be toxic.
在许多此类抗议活动中，通常还会同时释放烟雾。
You have smoke also often being deployed in addition to tear gas at a lot of these protests.
除非你能找到一个扔在你附近的催泪弹罐，并确认它的成分，然后自己做研究，否则人们很难知道自己究竟接触了什么。
It's really hard for people to know what exactly they've been exposed to unless you can find a canister that was thrown near you and know that this is what it was and try and do your own research.
所以，很难说，你知道，这就是它的作用机制。
So it's so, you know, it's hard to say, you know, this is the mechanism of action.
什么的作用机制？
Mechanism of action of what?
具体是哪种化学物质？
What what chemical specifically?
化学物质的哪一部分？
What part of the chemical?
不知道。
Don't know.
还有报道称，巴勒斯坦女性在以色列军队在她们附近或身上使用催泪瓦斯后发生流产。
There's also reports of miscarriage, like, from Palestinian women after Israeli forces use tear gas on or near them.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
所以，我的意思是，总结一下，我认为催泪瓦斯有明显的直接影响。
So, yeah, I mean, to to summarize, I would say there's obvious, like, direct effects of tear gas.
我们看到这些正变得越来越为我们所熟知。
We see them those are, like, becoming more and more known to us.
对吧？
Right?
但让我感到有趣的是，有这么多线索表明，无论这些化学物质是什么，它们都可能影响我们身体的其他部位，而我们对此知之甚少。
But it is interesting to me that there's so many clues that whether whatever these chemicals are, they can be affecting, like, other parts of our body, and there's just so much that
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们对此一无所知。
We don't know about it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
当我们把它们当作某种四处弥漫的东西时。
As we're, like, putting it as it's sort of, like, being poofed out all over the place.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
在广大人群中喷洒一种我们了解甚少的化学物质。
Spraying a chemical, we don't know that much about on a broad swath of the population.
嗯。
Mhmm.
相当危险。
Pretty risky.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，再次说明，我们联系了移民和海关执法局以及国土安全部，询问这些安全问题和疑虑，想知道这些东西是否安全。
And, again, I mean, we reached out to ICE, the Department of Homeland Security, to ask about these, like, safety concerns and questions if this stuff is safe.
我们没有收到回复。
We didn't hear back.
但很明显的是，尽管人们报告了催泪瓦斯带来的可怕经历，到目前为止，对很多人来说，这并没有阻止他们走上街头。
But what is clear is that even though people are reporting these awful experiences with tear gas, so far, for a lot of folks, it's like not stopping them from going out on the streets.
我们在明尼阿波利斯采访的人基本上都有再次上街的计划。
The people we talked to in Minneapolis basically all had plans to to go back out.
所以我们研究了一下，看看你能做些什么，是否能保护自己免受催泪瓦斯的伤害。
So we did look around at what you can do and, like, whether you can protect yourself from tear gas.
好的。
Okay.
基本上，人们告诉我们的建议是：戴上高质量的护目镜，要紧紧贴住脸部的那种。
And basically, what people told us, you know, wear really good goggles, something that's, like, really tight over your face.
对吧？
Right?
他们建议佩戴防毒面具。
They suggested wearing gas masks.
人们还建议全身覆盖，从头到脚，确保遮住所有暴露的皮肤。
People also suggested covering yourself, like, from head to toe, making sure you're covering all parts of your exposed skin.
是的。
Mhmm.
因为会引发皮疹。
Because of the rash stuff.
对。
Right.
因为当它接触到皮肤时，确实会引起刺激。
Because it, like, has when it contacts your skin, yeah, it can cause that irritation.
实际上，疾控中心对此也有一些推荐建议。
And there's also some CDC recommendations on this, actually.
他们说，如果你接触过催泪瓦斯，就该把衣服扔掉，甚至建议直接剪掉。
And they say to throw your clothes away if you've been exposed to tear gas, and they actually say to cut them off.
这样你就不会像那样把衬衫从头上扯下来，避免让化学物质更进一步进入眼睛。
So you're not, like, pulling your shirt over your head or whatever and, like, getting the stuff in your eyes even more.
是的。
Yeah.
这很聪明。
That's smart.
所以总的来说，你其实可以采取一些措施来保护自己，对吧，这些措施可能会有帮助。
So bottom line, like, you can there's things you can do to protect yourself, right, that might help.
但你知道，没有解毒剂。
But, you know, there's no, like, antidote.
对吧？
Right?
有一位科学家告诉我，催泪瓦斯没有像纳洛酮那样的解药。
There's no, like one of the scientists told me there's no, like, Narcan for tear gas.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但对你来说，罗斯，催泪瓦斯这件事让你处于什么境地？
But for you, Rose, where does this leave you on in the land of tear gas?
是的。
Yeah.
情况比我想象的还要糟。
It's worse than I thought it was.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，我其实跟一位抗议者讲了一些关于月经的科学知识，她觉得很好。
You know, I actually told one of the protesters some of the science about menstruation, and she was like, great.
谢谢。
Thanks.
这又是另一件我得去谷歌一下的事情，嗯。
That's, like, another thing for me to Google Uh-huh.
当我半夜醒着的时候。
When I'm awake in the middle of the night.
所以，是的。
So Mhmm.
我也很抱歉。
I also am sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
但对我来说，这就像是，好吧。
If but to me, it's like, okay.
嗯，弄清楚我们知道什么，不知道什么。
Well, figuring out what we know, what we don't know.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这很重要。
It's important.
谢谢，布莱丝。
Well, thanks, Blythe.
接下来，广告结束后，我们将听梅里尔的发言。
Next, after the break, we're gonna hear from Merrill.
她一直在研究这些移民执法突袭对被针对人群的影响。
She's been doing research into the effects that these ICE raids have on the people that are being targeted.
所以，破折号之后我们会谈到这个。
So that's coming up after the break.
你好。
Hi.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我是罗斯·里姆勒，我们刚刚讨论了催泪瓦斯可能对人们造成的影响。
It's Rose Rimmler here, and we just talked about the effects that tear gas might be having on people.
但还有许多其他让人心烦意乱的事情正在发生。
But there are a lot of other things happening that are freaking people out.
接下来，我们要谈谈移民执法突袭本身。
So next, we're gonna talk about the ICE raids themselves.
为此，我们将听取高级制作人梅瑞尔·霍恩的分享。
And for that, we're gonna hear from senior producer Meryl Horn.
嘿，罗斯。
Hey, Rose.
嘿，梅雷尔。
Hey, Meryl.
是的。
Yeah.
ICE突袭行动。
The ICE raids.
对吧？
Right?
这正是 supposedly 引发一切的事情。
This is the thing that supposedly started everything.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这些移民突袭行动，政府称是派出ICE来驱逐那些没有合法身份的人。
These immigration raids, the government said it was sending in ICE to deport people who were undocumented.
我们也从特伊那里听说过这件事，就是之前节目中我们采访过的那位抗议者。
We heard about this from Tee as well, the protester that we heard from earlier in the show.
我亲眼目睹他们在我的社区绑架人，他们真的会把人从家里拖出来。
I've I've literally watched them abduct people over in my neighborhood that, like, they're they're pulling people out of their homes.
我在离公寓大约两个街区的地方，听到一阵哨声和喇叭声，于是走出去，亲眼看到他们开过来。
I I watched, about two blocks away from my apartment, I heard a bunch of whistles and honkings, so I walked out and and and literally saw them, like, pull up.
他们闯进了一户人家，抓走了一个人，我不知道是谁。
They went into somebody's home, and they picked up, I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道他的名字，但他们把他抓上车，开车离开了。
I mean, I don't know his name, but they they picked him up and put him in a van and drove away.
听到这些事之后，我很好奇，想更多地了解这些移民突袭行动。
And so, like, hearing about this, it made me curious to find out more about the ICE raids.
它们对人们造成了哪些影响？
Like, what effects are they having on people?
这些影响的范围有多广？
How widespread are those effects?
是的。
And Mhmm.
实际上，这方面的科学研究比我预期的要多得多。
There's actually way more science on this than I was expecting there was.
所以我跟比尔·洛佩兹聊了聊这件事。
So I talked about this with Bill Lopez.
他是密歇根大学的临床副教授。
He's a clinical associate professor at the University of Michigan.
他研究的是这类突袭行动之后会发生什么。
And he studied the kind of aftermath of like what happens after one of these rates.
他进入这个研究领域的契机是，几年前他正在对一个社区的健康状况进行研究，当时发生了一次移民局突袭。
And the way he got into this work was that several years ago, he was already doing a study on the on the health of a community when an ICE raid happened.
那次突袭发生在密歇根州他家几英里远的地方。
It was just miles away from his house in Michigan.
所以我们当时正好在对拉丁裔社区进行一项调查，而突袭就发生在调查进行到一半的时候。
So we happened to be doing a survey of the Latino community at the same time, and the raid happened right in the middle.
有12人被拘留。
12 people were detained.
袭击之后，他发现一种被称为移民执法压力的现象上升了，这基本上是对被驱逐的恐惧。
And after the raid, he found that something called immigration enforcement stress went up, which is basically the fear of being deported.
是的。
Mhmm.
这或许并不令人意外。
Maybe not that surprising.
但人们还表示，袭击之后，他们的整体健康状况变得更差了。
But then also people said that after the raid, their health got worse overall.
他还进行了深入访谈，真正揭示了这些事件对人们造成的深远影响。
And he also did these in-depth interviews, which really showed the kind of depths of the effects on people.
所以他告诉我一个女人的故事，那天她和丈夫一起去修车行取车。
So he told me the story of this woman who had gone with her husband that day to pick up their car from the mechanic.
他们一起开车前往。
They drove in one car together.
他们为修车付了钱。
They pay for their for the work on their car.
他们分两辆车离开。
They they leave in two cars.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
当丈夫开车离开时，他被移民执法部门，也就是ICE，截留，随后被送往拘留所。
And as the husband is driving away, he's detained by immigration enforcement, by ICE, and he's later taken to detention.
她看着他，因为他开在她前面。
And she is watching him because he pulled out in front of her.
所以她亲眼目睹了这一切。
So she is witnessing this.
对吧？
Right?
而她自己也是无证身份，对此无能为力。
And being undocumented herself, she couldn't do anything about it.
她不敢靠近那辆车，否则自己也会被逮捕。
She couldn't approach the car or where she would be arrested as well.
后来比尔采访了她，了解这段经历如何一直困扰着她。
And then Bill interviewed her later about how this experience stuck with her.
她实际上描述那天时说，那不过是再普通不过的一天，对吧，
She actually described the day by saying, meaning it was a day just like any other, right,
在
in
你丈夫被拘留的那天。
which your husband was detained.
你永远无法预知这种剧烈的突发事件何时会发生。
And you never know when this intense climactic event is going to take place.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这不仅仅是暴力的程度问题，更是这种暴力的突然性和不可预测性。
So it's not only the level of violence, but it's the suddenness and unexpectedness of this violence.
在第三层面上，这种暴力可能在你生命的任何一天发生。
And at the third layer, it's the possibility that that violence can happen any day of your life.
另一项研究发现，移民与海关执法局的突袭行动并不仅仅影响无证人士。
Another research has found that, you know, ICE raids aren't just impacting undocumented people.
一项研究指出，如果美国公民认识的人被拘留或驱逐，他们更有可能报告感到焦虑或抑郁。
One study said that US citizens were more likely to report feeling anxious or depressed if they knew someone who was detained or deported.
受影响的不仅仅是心理健康。
And it's not just mental health that's affected.
研究发现，它还可能影响身体健康。
Studies are finding that it can affect physical health too.
然后比尔跟我讲了这项研究。
And then Bill told me about this study.
这项研究是关于2008年在爱荷华州一家肉类加工厂发生的突袭行动。
It was about a raid that happened in Iowa in 2008 at a meat processing processing plant.
工厂。
Plant.
而且规模巨大。
And it was huge.
移民与海关执法局部署了900名特工，近300人被驱逐。
ICE deployed 900 agents and almost 300 people were deported.
这位研究人员研究了这次突袭之后在爱荷华州出生的婴儿。
And what this researcher did, she looked at babies born after this raid in Iowa.
她比较了突袭前后婴儿的出生体重。
And what she did is look at birth weight of infants before the raid and after the raid.
她发现，突袭之后，拉丁裔婴儿的平均出生体重下降了，但白人婴儿的没有。
And what she found is that after the raid, the average birth weight of Latino infants went down, but not of white infants.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们看到的这些数据，并不只来自无证女性。
So this what we see and those were not just from undocumented women.
这些数据来自整个地区的出生记录。
Those were from those were just regional birth rate records.
对吧？
Right?
执法行动直接影响了尚未出生的下一代，而他们甚至还没有公民身份的概念。
Enforcement literally makes its way into the bodies of the next generation who aren't even born yet and who don't even have a concept of citizenship status.
对吧？
Right?
哇哦。
Woah.
所以父母的压力大到影响了婴儿的健康状况，而且这种影响只出现在拉美裔群体中。
So it was like the the parents were stressed enough that I was making the babies born less healthy, and that was only affecting the Latino community.
是的。
Yeah.
在突袭之后，拉美裔女性所生的婴儿出生时体重偏低的概率比之前高出百分之二十四。
Impants born to Latino women had a twenty four percent higher chance of being born with a low birth weight after the raid compared to beforehand.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我向比尔询问了这个问题。
I asked Bill about this.
我们了解其中的机制吗？
And do we know what the mechanism there would be?
这是压力造成的吗？
Is this from stress?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们知道机制有两个方面。
So we know the mechanism is twofold.
对吧？
Right?
其中之一无疑是母亲体内压力激素的影响。
One is certainly stress hormones in the in the mother's body.
另一个可能的情况是，如果人们担心被驱逐出境，就不太可能寻求医疗护理，比如产前护理。
Another thing going on could be that people are less likely to get medical care, like prenatal care, if they're worried about being deported.
因此，有一项研究调查了医疗提供者，其中近一半的人表示，他们观察到移民署执法对他们的移民患者产生了负面影响。
So there was one study that surveyed health care providers, and almost half of them said that they had seen negative effects of ICE enforcement on their immigrant patients.
一位医生说：‘害怕被驱逐出境让所有人都不敢前来就诊。’
One said, quote, fear of getting deported keeps all of these folks away.
此外，即使是持有绿卡的人也担心失去保险，因而停止了必要的治疗。
Also, even folks with green cards are afraid of losing their insurance now and have stopped getting necessary treatments, unquote.
此外，还有报告称移民署特工出现在医院里。
Plus, there's reports of ICE agents in hospitals.
对吧？
Right?
我们听说过这种情况。
We've heard about that.
所以，实际上有充分的理由感到害怕。
So there's good reason to be afraid, actually.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，我们在这里讨论的很多工作都只是关注单次ICE突袭，但明尼苏达州发生的情况显然完全是另一个层次。
And, you know, a lot of the work that we've been talking about here is just looking at, like, one individual ICE raid, but what's happening in Minnesota is on a whole other level, of course.
我和比尔谈过这件事，他说，尽管他在这个领域已经工作了十五年，但目前发生的情况还是让他措手不及。
I talked about that with Bill who said that even though he's been in this field for fifteen years, what's happening now caught him off guard.
ICE正在逮捕真正的儿童。
ICE is arresting, like, literal children.
17岁的孩子算孩子吗？
And is a 17 year old a child?
当然算。
Absolutely.
我依然会感到愤怒。
I would still be angry.
五岁的孩子是不是更残忍的一种情况？
Is a five year old perhaps a different level of cruelty?
我会说，是的。
I would argue, yes.
我并不是想区分哪个年龄段的孩子更糟。
I'm not trying to differentiate which age of a child is worse.
这令人憎恶。
It's abhorrent.
我说的是他们感到震惊。
I am saying they're shocked.
我震惊于他们竟然逮捕了五岁的孩子。
I'm shocked that they arrested five year olds.
我感到震惊。
I'm shocked.
严格来说，那个男孩，利亚姆·科内霍·拉莫斯，五岁，是被拘留了，而不是被逮捕。
Technically, that boy, Liam Konejo Ramos, the five year old, was detained, not arrested.
但没错，你可能已经看到，他照片上周在流传。
But, yeah, you probably saw, you know, his photo was making the rounds last week.
就是那个戴着帽子、背着蜘蛛侠背包的孩子。
It's that kid with the, like, the hat and the Spider Man backpack.
嗯。
Mhmm.
移民与海关执法局称，他父亲抛弃了他并逃离了执法人员。
ICE said that his dad abandoned him and ran from the officers.
他的家人表示，他们曾恳求执法人员让他们留下孩子。
His family says that they begged agents to let them keep the child.
还有报道称，他和父亲当时正在寻求庇护，
And there's reports that he and his father were seeking asylum in the
德克萨斯州。
Texas.
我们现在看到的情况，似乎是一些执法人员毫无顾忌，天哪。
What we see now does seem to be agents with no oh, goodness.
我们看到的这些特工，简直完全没有道德准则。
We we seem to see agents with, like, no fucking moral compass whatsoever.
让我重新说一遍。
I'll rephrase that.
但这真的让人丢脸。
But it's just embarrassing.
这太丢脸了。
It's embarrassing.
我们现在看到的是，这些特工对自己的行为不负责任，实施了我从未见过的如此大规模的暴力和残忍行为。
What we seem to see now is agents that are unaccountable to their actions and engage in a level of violence and cruelty on a scale that I've certainly not seen before.
这种经历可能会对心理健康造成长期影响，具体影响因人们所经历的具体情况而异。
And there can be long term mental health effects from this, which can vary based on, like, what exactly people are exposed to.
除此之外，有两件事很重要。
Among other things, two things matter.
一是与驱逐和暴力事件的接近程度，二是驱逐行为的暴力程度。
That is proximity to the removal and the violence, how violence the removal is.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当您就在父母身边并亲眼目睹这一切时，心理健康影响最为严重，且与暴力的程度有关。
The mental health outcomes are most severe when you're right next to your parents and you witness it and depending on the level of the violence.
对吧？
Right?
正如我们在明尼苏达州目前所见，使用催泪瓦斯、持械威胁，其后果显然比在不拔枪的情况下要求某人离开要严重得多。
So as we're seeing in in Minnesota right now, the use of tear gas, the threatening with weapons will have worse outcomes understandably than requesting that someone leaves without weapons drawn.
科学家们实际上已经能够研究这一点。
And scientists have actually been able to study this.
比如，在一篇论文中，一组研究人员找到了大约70名成年人，他们小时候都曾以某种方式经历过移民执法。
Like, in one paper, a group of researchers found about 70 adults who had all been exposed to immigration enforcement in some way when they were kids.
也许他们的家人或社区中的其他人曾被驱逐出境。
So maybe a member of their family or someone else in the community had been deported.
然后他们作为成年人对这些人进行了深入访谈，有时持续数小时，并让他们填写问卷。
And then they did these like in-depth interviews with them, sometimes for hours as adults and had them fill out surveys.
研究发现，许多人在成年后出现了焦虑，而且如果他们在童年时期经历的事件更严重，这种影响会更强。
And it found that a lot of them had anxiety as adults and that the effect was stronger if they were exposed to an event that was more severe.
此外，还有大量研究普遍表明，接触暴力，比如警察暴力，对心理健康非常有害。
And then we also have lots of studies just generally showing that being exposed to violence, like police violence, is really bad for your mental health.
尽管许多研究聚焦于深受移民执法影响的人群，但我们也有证据表明，像明尼苏达州正在发生的长期动荡所引发的连锁效应可能非常巨大。
And while a lot of this research focuses on the people who are really affected by ICE activity, we also have evidence that the ripple out effects from like a prolonged upheaval, like what's happening in Minnesota, might be huge.
比如，在美国以外，有一项关于香港的研究，考察了2019年当地的社会动荡、抗议活动和暴力事件如何影响民众的心理健康，包括整个普通人群。
So like moving away from The US, there was a study on Hong Kong that looked at the social unrest there in 2019, all the protests and the violence and how that affected people's mental health and, like, the general population there.
研究对象并非专门针对抗议者。
So not specifically protesters.
研究发现，抗议活动之后，人们患抑郁症的风险从大约2%上升到了11%。
And they found that someone's risk for depression went from about two percent to eleven percent after after the protests.
所以普通民众的抑郁情绪也加剧了？
So just the general population got more depressed?
是的。
Yeah.
不只是那些直接参与的人吗？
Not just, like, people directly involved?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
最后，我和比尔聊了聊，关于这一切所谓的理由。
And and then finally, I talked to to Bill about, like, the supposed reason for for all of this.
所以有一种说法是，突袭行动让美国更安全了，因为目标是驱逐暴力罪犯。
So there's this claim that the raids are making The US safer because the goal is to deport violent criminals.
证据显示了什么？
What does the evidence show?
这些突袭行动真的让社区更安全了吗？
Like, do these raids make communities safer?
证据很清楚，移民和无证移民从事犯罪活动的可能性远低于公民。
So evidence is pretty clear that immigrants and undocumented immigrants are far less likely to engage in criminal activity than citizens.
对吧？
Right?
可能性更低。
Less likely.
可能性更低。
Less likely.
从基本层面来看，移民较多的社区犯罪率本来就更低。
At a baseline, communities with more immigrants are going to have lower crime rates just kind of at a baseline.
那为什么呢？
And how come?
原因有很多。
For many reasons.
对吧？
Right?
其中包括，移民在美国的身份更加不稳定，而且即使是较轻的犯罪也会面临更严重的法律后果，因此犯罪行为通常更少。
Including that immigrants have more tenuous status in The US, and, you know, there's more legal repercussions for less serious crimes, so there tends to be less crimes.
对吧？
Right?
是的
Yeah.
我们在以前的移民节目中讨论过这个。
So we cover this in our old immigration episode.
我们以前在节目中聊过这个。
We've talked about this on the show before.
几年前。
A few years ago.
是的
Yeah.
移民比普通人群更不可能犯罪。
Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes compared to other people in the general population.
最近，卡托研究所——这家自由派智库——对通过《信息自由法》获取的大量驱逐数据进行了分析。
And there was an analysis recently from the Cato Institute, that libertarian think tank that analyzed a bunch of deportation data that was FOIA ed.
研究发现，去年夏天，ICE在街头逮捕的非罪犯人数比大约十年前增加了1100%。
And it found that ICE is arresting 1100% more non criminals on the streets in the summer of last year compared with about like ten years ago.
因此，如今ICE进行的绝大多数逮捕都是针对那些非暴力犯罪前科者或完全没有任何犯罪记录的人。
So the vast majority of ICE arrests happening today are basically people with either nonviolent criminal convictions or people with no criminal record at all.
此外，还有一些证据表明，当前正在发生的情况实际上会让人们变得更不安全。
And then there's also some evidence that what's happening right now will actually make people less safe.
例如，当ICE开始与地方警察合作时，无证移民报告犯罪的可能性会降低，该研究的作者表示，这会削弱公共安全。
For example, when ICE starts working with local cops, undocumented people are less likely to report crimes, which the authors of that study said can undermine public safety.
我们还发现，在拉丁裔人口比例较高的地区，家庭暴力报案数量也有所下降，这意味着当发生此类暴力事件时，人们可能更不愿意求助。
And we also see that domestic violence calls also drop in places with a relatively high Latinx population, which means that when that type of, like, violence is happening, people might be less likely to call for help.
是的。
Mhmm.
我认为，当人们不信任ICE时——出于各种合理原因，他们也不会信任警察，也不会信任社区中的任何其他政府服务。
I would say that when people do not trust ICE, which is obviously appropriate for any number of reasons, they will not trust the police, and they will not trust any other government service in that community.
人就是人。
The man is a man is a man.
穿绿衣服的人和穿蓝衣服的人本质上是一回事。
The man in green and the man in blue are the same thing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，是的，当ICE进行突袭时，人们似乎普遍更不健康、更不安全。
So, yeah, it it does seem like people are generally less healthy and less safe when ICE raids happen.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
谢谢，梅里尔。
Well, thanks, Merrill.
谢谢，罗斯。
Thanks, Rose.
这是科学与……
That's science versus.
本周，我们有117次引用。
This week, we have a 117 citations.
如果你想查看所有这些引用文献，可以点击我们 transcripts 的链接，你可以在节目说明中找到它们。
And if you wanna see all those citations, you can click on the link to our transcript, and you'll find that in our show notes.
本集由布莉丝·特雷尔、梅瑞尔·霍恩、邓米歇尔、阿凯蒂·福斯特·基斯和我，罗斯·里姆勒制作。
This episode was produced by Blythe Terrell, Meryl Horn, Michelle Dang, Aketti Foster Keys, and me, Rose Rimler.
温迪·祖克曼是我们节目的执行制片人。
Wendy Zuckerman is our executive producer.
本节目由布莉丝·特雷尔剪辑。
We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
事实核查由邓米歇尔和阿凯蒂·福斯特·基斯完成。
Fact checking by Michelle Dang and Aketti Foster Keys.
混音和音效设计由鲍比·劳德负责。
Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord.
音乐由鲍比·劳德、日高布美、索·怀利、艾玛·芒格和彼得·伦纳德创作。
Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Peter Leonard.
特别感谢所有抽出时间与我们分享明尼苏达州情况的明尼苏达人，包括摄影师马特·冈德鲁姆。
Special thanks to all the Minnesotans who took the time to speak to us about what's going on there, including photographer Matt Gundrum.
也要感谢我们采访的其他研究人员，包括莫尼斯特医生和德雷贝教授。
Thanks also to the other researchers we spoke to, including doctor Margo Moynister and professor Joanna Drebbe.
感谢保罗·施赖伯、尼姆拉·阿斯米、惠特尼·波特和杰克·韦恩斯坦。
Thanks to Paul Schreiber, Nimra Asmi, Whitney Potter, and Jack Weinstein.
《科学VS》是Spotify Studios的原创节目。
Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original.
您可以在Spotify或您收听播客的任何平台免费收听。
You can listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
关注我们并开启铃声提醒，我们很快会再与您见面。
Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications, and we'll back to you soon.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。