《沙丘2》与丹尼斯·维伦纽瓦

好的。

Okay.

节日问候，Script Apart的听众们。

Season's greetings Script Apart listeners.

我是阿尔·霍纳，正如你可能注意到的，这是圣诞节前的最后一周。

My name's Al Horner and as you may have noticed, it is the last week before Christmas.

这一年即将结束，所以我想，让我们在2024年强势收官。

The year's coming to an end, and so I figured, let's finish 2024 strong.

所以本周这期关于优秀电影和电视剧初稿秘密的播客节目中，我采访了过去十二个月里一些最佳影片的编剧，出于各种原因，我们在影片上映时未能涉及这些内容。

So all this week on this podcast about the first draft secrets of great movies and TV shows, I have interviews with the writers behind some of the best movies of the last twelve months that, for whatever reason, we didn't cover upon release.

而阿特雷德斯家族的圣王子啊，今天真是开了个好头。

And holy prince of House Atreides, what a way to begin today.

与我一同的是我们这个时代最具远见的电影制作人之一。

I have with me one of the most visionary filmmakers of our time.

他以2015年的《边境杀手》的形式，创作了本世纪迄今为止最令人心跳加速的犯罪惊悚片之一。

He's made one of the most pulse racing crime thrillers of the century so far in the form of twenty fifteen's Scicario.

在我看来，他还制作了有史以来关于语言力量最伟大的电影之一，2016年的《降临》。

He's made one of greatest movies about the power of language of all time in my opinion, twenty sixteen's Arrival.

而在2017年和2021年，他不仅一次而是两次挑战了不可能，先是打造了有史以来最伟大商业巨作之一的续集《银翼杀手2049》，然后又改编了此前被认为无法搬上银幕的小说——弗兰克·赫伯特的《沙丘》。

And in 2017 and 2021, he took on the impossible not once but twice, crafting first sequel to one of the greatest blockbusters ever in the shape of Blade Runner 2049 and then a movie adaptation of a novel previously thought unfilmable, Frank Herbert's Dune.

是的。

Yes.

我今天的嘉宾是令人难以置信的丹尼斯·维伦纽瓦，他将与我们聊聊他由提莫西·查拉梅和赞达亚主演的鸿篇巨制《沙丘2》如何定义了2024年。

My guest today is the the incredible Denis Villeneuve stopping by for a chat about how his gargantuan Dune part two starring Timothee Chalamet and Zendaya helped define 2024.

我这么说不仅是因为它在票房上大获成功，斩获近7.5亿美元——顺便说一句，对于一部充满香料致幻视觉实验的史诗巨制来说这成绩相当不错。

And I say that not just in the way that it dominated the box office earning almost three quarters of a billion dollars, which by the way is not bad for a hallucinatory epic full of spice induced visual experimentation.

不。

No.

我这么说是因为这部电影映照了刚过去的2024年——法西斯主义、信仰、伪救世主这些概念都曾是这一年令人不安的背景元素，而《沙丘2》恰好对所有这些进行了深刻沉思。

I say that because the film is reflective of the just passed because notions of fascism, faith, false messiahs, these things have all been uncomfortable parts of the backdrop of 2024, and Dune part two manages to meditate on all of them.

这是一部兼具宏大场面与哲学多维性的电影，这种作品实在难得一见。

This is a movie of the kind of spectacle and philosophical multidimensionality that just doesn't come around all that often.

另外，在更基础的层面上，沙虫真的很酷，伙计们。

Also, on a slightly more base level, sandworms rock, guys.

在你即将听到的剧透对话中，我有三十分钟时间向丹尼提出我最深入的问题，关于他的剧本。

In the spoiler conversation that you're about to hear, I had thirty minutes to ask Denny my most probing questions about his script.

比如，在制作《沙丘2》的过程中，他是否曾考虑过让奥斯汀·巴特勒饰演的菲德-罗萨·哈克南存活下来，以便在后续电影中进一步探索，因为这个角色如此令人不寒而栗。

Questions like, was there ever a moment in the making of June part two when he contemplated keeping Faid Routha Harkonnen, played by Austin Butler, alive to explore in further films because that character was so chilling.

我们深入探讨了电影结局——它偏离了赫伯特的原始材料——对系列未来的意义，以及《沙丘2》是否是一部警示殖民主义的电影，他是否相信电影有能力真正瓦解这些结构，还是更多地表达一种反抗的呐喊。

We get into what the ending of the film, which veers away from Herbert's source material, means for the future of the franchise and if Dune part two is a film that warns about colonialism, whether or not he believes that cinema has the power to actually dismantle those structures or is more about expressing a kind of howl of resistance.

这次对话非常精彩。

It was a great chat.

感谢丹尼斯是如此出色、热情、有见地的交谈对象，并在《Apart》制作过程中意外参与。

Thanks to Denis for being such a wonderful, warm, insightful person to speak with and an accidental part in the making of Apart.

上次我和他交谈是为了2017年我和制作人卡姆制作的关于《银翼杀手》音乐的纪录片。

The last time I spoke with him was for a documentary that me and producer Cam made in 2017 about the music of Blade Runner.

那是卡姆和我早期合作的重要项目之一。

That was one of the first big projects that Cam and I collaborated on.

这么多年后，我们在这里做这个播客。

And all these years later, here we are doing this podcast.

所以感谢他，也衷心感谢我们的Patreon支持者，没有他们这个节目就无法实现。

So thanks to him, and a massive thank you also to our Patreon supporters without whom this show would not be possible.

如果你喜欢我们在《剧本拆解》中所做的内容，并且想要无广告剧集、提前观看剧集、有机会向即将到来的嘉宾提问等等，请前往patreon.com/scriptapart，只需每月一杯咖啡的价格，你就能获得所有这些福利甚至更多。

If you like what we do on script apart and you want ad free episodes, early access to episodes, the chance to ask your questions to upcoming guests, and much more, head to patreon.com/scriptapart where for the price of a single monthly cup of coffee, you get all those perks and more.

再说一遍这个地址：patreon.com/scriptaparts。

That address one more time is patreon.com/scriptaparts.

好的。

Okay.

所有开场白就到这里。

That's all the admin out the way.

我们开始吧。

Let's jump in.

这是令人惊叹的丹尼斯·维伦纽瓦谈论《沙丘2》初稿秘密的内容。

This is the astounding Denis Villeneuve discussing the first draft secrets of Dune part two.

谢谢大家收听。

Thanks for listening, everyone.

我是阿尔·霍纳。

My name's Al Horner.

本集一如既往由卡米尔·达梅克制作。

This episode was produced as ever by Camille Damek.

希望你们喜欢这段对话。

I hope you enjoy the conversation.

丹尼，很高兴再次见到你。

Denny, great to see you again.

你是一位对暴力循环、历史循环深感兴趣的电影人。

You're a filmmaker who's deeply interested in cycles, cycles of violence, cycles of history.

《沙丘2》讲述了一个所谓救世主的崛起，而救世主正是我们人类似乎陷入的某种循环。

Dune part two is the story of the emergence of a so called messiah, and messiahs are absolutely a cycle that we as a species seem to be trapped in.

在我们的政治领域，我们痴迷于那种所谓能拯救我们的救世主形象。

In our political spaces, we're obsessed with this idea of the one who's come to save us.

丹尼斯，你对此有何看法，以及你是如何将这些思考融入《沙丘2》的？

What are your thoughts on why that is, Denis, and how did you build those thoughts into Doom part two?

我认为这深深植根于人类的处境，你知道，我们对于自己在这里做什么没有任何真正的指导或线索。

I think that it's really deeply to the human condition, you know, and not having any guidance real guidance or or or clue about what we are doing here.

而将我们的信仰具体化为一个存在，一个能为我们指明方向的人，这种想法在内心深处带来了极大的安慰。

And the idea of having to solidify our our beliefs into a being, someone that could show us the way is something that is tremendously bringing a lot of comfort in in one's heart.

并且我认为，正如你正确指出的，纵观历史，我们一直在寻找那些能帮助我们找到道路、找到在世界中意义的人。

And and and I think that it's we've been through history, as you rightly said, looking for those people that could help us to to find our way, our meaning into the world.

有趣的是，这些人物大多出自沙漠，来自虚无，来自死亡的空间。

And it's interesting to to consider the fact that most of those figures came out of the desert, from the emptiness, from the space of death.

这些人物的问题在于他们代表了一种绝对性，我们将弥赛亚的理念与之相连，认为他们是更接近神的存在，随之而来的是巨大的权力。

And the problem with those figures is that they represent an absolute, and we attach with the idea of Messiah, the idea that they are beings closer to God, and and and with that comes tremendous power.

而弗兰克·赫伯特质疑这种权力，一旦弥赛亚式的人物涉足政治。

And it's a power that is questioned by Frank Herbert once a messianic figure gets close to politics.

我觉得这个问题，历经岁月，跨越世纪，始终具有现实意义。

And it's a question I feel that is, through the years, through the centuries, always relevant.

你的《沙丘》电影的一个小奇迹在于，尽管如此多的流行文化，尤其是科幻叙事，都蕴含着弗兰克·赫伯特的DNA，但它们依然显得如此新颖。

One of the small miracles of your Dune movies is how fresh they feel despite the fact that so much pop culture, so much science fiction storytelling in particular, has that Frank Herbert DNA at its heart.

《黑客帝国》中尼奥的旅程，就是《沙丘》中保罗的旅程，而《星球大战》显然也深受弗兰克·赫伯特的影响。

So Neo's journey in the matrix is the journey of Paul and Dune, and and Star Wars, of course, was famously indebted to Frank Herbert.

在拍摄《沙丘》电影之初，你们是否意识到其中某些情节可能会让人感到熟悉？你们又是如何克服这一挑战的？

How conscious were you at the beginning of the potential for some of the beats in these Dune movies to feel familiar, and how did you overcome that challenge?

因为《沙丘》和《沙丘2》本很容易沦为复制品的复制品，而不是如今这般电影创新的杰作。

Because Dune and Dune part two, they they could have so easily felt like photocopies of a photocopy instead of the innovations in cinema that they are.

这个问题问得很好。

The thing is that it's a good question.

关键在于，我从一开始就坚信自己回归了原著，并且清楚地知道‘天选之人’这个设定是一个陈词滥调，在当代电影，尤其是好莱坞电影中被反复使用。

The thing is I I took for right at the start from the we I I trusted the fact that I was going back to the original, and I made sure that I know that it's the idea of the chosen one is a trope, and it's something that is used over and over in in contemporary cinema, specifically from Hollywood.

真正吸引我、让我对这本书产生兴趣的，并不是‘天选之人’这个概念。

And I I myself, what drew me to do, what interest me into that book isn't the idea of a chosen one.

我并不是想让电影偏离‘被选中者’的主题，而是想更多地展现一个人恰好在正确的时间、正确的地点出现，不得不面对这一处境，不得不承担起身处不同势力争夺主要自然资源的十字路口的重担。

It's not that I tried to deviate the the the movie from being about someone that has been chosen to more about someone that finds to happen to be at the right time at the right place and and has to deal with the that context and has to deal with the burden of being at the intersection of different powers that are fighting to get the main natural resources.

这就是为什么我尽力避免任何形式的魔法或奇幻元素。

And it's that's why I tried my best to go away from any kind of form of magic or or or a fantasy.

我努力确保保罗的旅程尽可能贴近现实，几乎可以从科学角度解释一切。

I tried to make sure that Paul's journey will be as grounded as possible, that you could almost explain everything from a scientific point of view.

当然，其中仍有一点点奇幻色彩，但尽可能让它接地气，让他的旅程尽可能贴近我们，使我们能够产生共鸣。

Of course, it there's still a little bit of of a fantasy there, but as much as possible to make it grounded, to to bring us bring his journey as close to us as possible so we can relate to it.

而《沙丘》吸引我的地方在于一个男孩在另一种文化中巩固自我身份、最终找到自我的理念。

And and what interests me in June is the idea of a boy that consolidate his identity, that finally finds his own in another in another culture.

而这对我来说就是创作的魅力所在。

And that for me is is the art of doing.

丹尼斯，你自己的生活经历中有什么能帮助你理解保罗以及他在第二部中所承担的重担吗？

Was there anything from your own life, Denis, that you were able to bring to the table in understanding Paul and understanding the burden that he's carrying in part two?

我不想过多涉及你的个人心理治疗，但我会说，寻找家园的想法是我一直在不断追寻的东西。

I will say that without going much into a in your personal therapy, but I would say that the idea of trying to find a home is something that it's it's something that I've been constantly looking for.

我想这就是我与保罗产生强烈共鸣的地方。

I think that's where I connected to Paul so strongly.

你之前曾描述过，丹尼斯，一些科幻电影的失败之处在于影片迷失在自己的理念中，我理解的意思是——如果我说错了请纠正我——真正伟大的科幻电影在主题和故事之间有着非常好的平衡。

You've previously described how the downfall of some science fiction movies is when a film gets lost in its own ideas, Denis, which I took to mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, that truly great sci fi movies, they have a really good balance of theme and story.

你既需要叙事动力，也需要丰富的思想内涵。

You need narrative momentum as well as rich ideas.

它不能仅仅是角色在房间里高谈阔论。

It just it can't just be characters in rooms pontificating.

必须要有动作场面。

There needs to be action.

你是如何在《沙丘2》中进行这种校准的？

How did you make that calibration with Doom part two?

是否对剧本进行了大量删改，以确保动作场面出现在恰当的位置？

Was there a lot of chopping and changing the screenplay to make sure you had the right action set pieces in the right places?

首先，我并不是来评判或定义对错的。

First of all, I I'm not here to reach or to say what is good or what is wrong.

我认为有趣的是，科幻小说有多种不同的创作方式。

I mean, I think that what is interesting, and there's a different ways to approach science fiction.

但对我来说，我喜欢的科幻作品是那些关注人类旅程的类型，这种旅程可能受到新技术、新发现或其他文化等的挑战。

So but I will say that for me, the one the science fictions that I love is the one where it's about the human journey, and that the human journey can be it's a challenge by new technologies or new discoveries or another culture, etcetera.

但这就是我觉得它有趣的地方。

But it's where I find it interesting.

而且我认为像《沙丘》这样的电影能引起共鸣，是因为归根结底，它更像是一个聚焦于那个男孩旅程的故事——在第一部中发现那个文化，在第二部中发现爱情，与一个女孩坠入爱河，接纳她的文化，并在与她的接触中成长为男人。

And and I think that a movie like Doom finds its resonance because at the end of the day, it's much more of a the journey is focused on the journey of that of that boy, discovering that culture, and in part two, discovering love and and and falling in love with a girl and and embracing her culture and and becoming a man in her contact.

这正是它开始让我觉得合理的地方。

And that's that's where it's it's it's it makes it start to make sense to me.

但是，老实说，这就是我能够改编《沙丘》的方式，但我并不是说——我相信存在并且我们看过那些在智力上更具挑战性、但情感上或许不那么动人的电影，它们同样是绝佳的作品。

But, honestly, it's it's that's the way I was able to adapt Dune, but I'm not there's I'm sure that there and I we we've seen movies that are intellectually more challenging and and less, let's say, emotionally moving that are absolutely fantastic movies.

所以我并不是在说教。

So I'm I'm not preaching.

那么

So what

丹尼斯，在《沙丘2》剧本开发过程中最大的改动是什么？

were the biggest changes across the development of the script for part two, Denis?

在第二部剧本开发过程中，还有其他哪些场景或小说中的元素你们曾考虑过加入，但最终决定舍弃吗？

Were there other set pieces you considered, other elements from the novel that you considered bringing in and eventually opted not to?

我不得不放弃的最重要部分，就是那个世界中的人类计算机。

The the the big thing that I had to mourn the death of was the man that world.

这是一个在改编第一部时逐步做出的决定。

It's and it's a decision that was taken progressively as we were adapting part one.

我原本希望改编作品能完全聚焦于贝尼·杰瑟里特姐妹，但我仍然想保留一些人类计算机的元素——那些在心智能力上达到能与最先进计算机和人工智能抗衡的人，却被这个世界所禁止。

The idea that I wanted the adaptation to be absolutely focused on the Bene Gesserit sisters, but I I I was still wanted to have some flavor of the that those human computers, those people that are mastered the mind at a level that can compete with the the best computers and AI being banned from that world.

因此，这是小说中一个非常有趣的部分，但感觉我们追逐的东西太多了，这就像另一个故事。

So it was an aspect of the novel that obviously is very interesting, but it felt like we were chasing too many chicken by it was another it was like if it was another movie.

你完全可以拍一部只聚焦于曼塔普的电影，那会是一个迷人且截然不同的项目，但我更感兴趣的是其中的宗教层面，即宗教与政治融合的理念。

It was, you could absolutely make a film about I could do a film, an adaptation of Dune just focusing on the Mantap, and it will it could be a fascinating, very different project, but I was more interested by the the religious aspect of it, that the idea of blending religion politics.

因此，这是我希望作为改编核心的重点，电影是一种比文学更直接的媒介，我必须做出自己的取舍。

So that was I wanted to do the main focus of the adaptation, cinema is an act of it was a more visceral form than than the literature, and and I had to make my chain my my decisions.

这意味着，那个世界在两部电影中都并未真正呈现。

So that meant that the world is not really part of the of the of both both movies.

这个决定是你们很早就做出的吗？

Was that a decision you made very early on?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个很早就产生的想法，我在拍摄第二部分时不得不放弃这个决定。

It's it's an an idea that came very early on and that I had to mourn that decisions as I was doing the the second part.

我还想说，弗雷曼文化的许多文化表现形式——仪式、舞蹈——我确实拍摄了，但这些内容都没有出现在电影里，我真希望它们能保留，但电影需要一定的节奏，我尽力将这些文化元素尽可能多地呈现在银幕上。

I will say also that there are a lot of cultural manifestations of Fremen culture, rituals, dance, things that I shot, by the way, that are not in the film that I wish had it's just that movies, again, needs a necessary momentum, and I try to put as much of that culture on the screen as possible.

我本可以拍一部内容更丰富的电影，但我认为那样反而会损害影片的质量。

I could have made a movie with much more, but I think the movie would have suffered from that.

所以我杀死了我的挚爱。

So I I I I killed my darlings.

你能告诉我一些你拍摄了但最终决定删掉的内容吗？

Can you tell me some of those things that you shot but ultimately decided to leave on the cutting room floor?

这个嘛，还是那句话，我这么说吧。

The the the again, it's always about it's I will say this.

当它被遗弃在剪辑室地板上时，就已经死了。

When it's on the floor of the cutting room, it's dead.

一旦确定删除，我经历了哀悼的过程，现在不想再谈论这些了，因为它们就像不属于电影的东西。

And once it's dead, I had I went through a mourning process, and when I don't want to talk about that anymore because it's it's like it's things that don't belong to the film.

电影本身拒绝了它们。

The film reject them.

我觉得...我认为你应该去问我的剪辑师本人，但我对自己的素材相当苛刻。

I'm very I think I think and you should ask that to my editor himself, but I think I'm pretty severe with my own material.

我是个毫不留情的人。

I'm someone that takes no prisoners.

始终是电影本身占据主导地位，在这方面我非常严苛——你知道，那些能通过剪辑保留的镜头，必然有其不可替代的价值。

It's always the movie that prevail, and I am very harsh in that, you know, when the shots survive the cut, it's because owned it.

至于那些被剪掉的镜头，它们就永远消失了。

And so the dead shots, they are gone.

我就直接假设你剪掉的是一个舞蹈片段。

I'll just go ahead and assume it was a dance number that you cut.

这感觉像是

That feels like

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

It was interesting.

也许放在第三部里。

Maybe for part three.

《沙丘2》中奥斯汀·巴特勒饰演的角色，可以说是近年来最具吸引力的银幕形象之一。

Austin Butler's character in Dune part two is well, he's one of the most compelling screen presences of a character in recent times.

比如他的造型、嗓音、暴力场面，还有和他叔叔的吻。

Like, the look, the voice, the violence, the the kiss with his uncle.

我知道他在书里死了，但我很好奇。

I know that he dies in the books, but I'm I'm curious.

当你开始塑造这个角色、设计他的形象、选中奥斯汀，并逐渐意识到他会为这个角色带来什么时，有没有那么一刻，你曾想过：我是不是该在这里偏离原著？

Like, as you began to write the character, as you began to devise what he'd look like, as you cast Austin, and you began to realize, like, what he was gonna bring to it, was there ever a moment where you wondered, should this be one of the places where I deviate from the source material?

我是不是该让这个角色活下来，以便更深入地挖掘他的黑暗面？

Should I keep this character alive to delve deeper into his darkness?

我爱上了费德罗塔。

I fell in love with Federota.

我的意思是，我爱上了奥斯汀·巴特勒饰演的费德罗塔。

I mean, as as what what the I I fell in love with Austin Butler's FEDROTA.

我抱有很大的期望。

I I had high hopes.

很高的期望。

High hopes.

我当时对奥斯汀寄予厚望，我真的无法表达我对他银幕表现的惊讶、震撼和喜悦。

I I was like I put a lot of pressure on on Austin, and I I cannot express how much I'm I I was amazed, floored, and happy about what he he created on screen.

我当时在寻找那种性感魅力。

I was looking for that sex appeal.

这就是为什么我我去找了奥斯汀。

That's why I I I went to Austin.

那正是我寻找的那种黑暗性感魅力，那种玩世不恭的花花公子式摇滚明星态度，那种令人无法移开视线的难以抗拒的魅力。

That was that dark sex appeal that I was looking for, that that kind of a playful playboy way of rock star attitude, that unbearable charisma that you you can not watch him.

当我们开始进行第一次镜头测试时，我记得我睡得特别香，因为我说，好了。

And and the and and when we were starting to do the first camera test, I I remember going sleeping very well because I said, okay.

他走的方向对吗？

Is he right is he walking in the right direction?

奥斯汀做到了。

Austin did it.

他需要填补巨大的空缺，我是说，感受。

He had big shoes to fill I mean, feel.

这是书中最具标志性的角色之一，也是大家都期待的角色。

It's it's it's one of the most iconic character from the book, and it's a character that everybody were expecting.

出于特定原因，第一部中没有让这个角色出场，我们需要让他回归。

Had kept the character away from part one for specific reasons, and and it needed to to we needed to bring it home.

而且，是的，确实如此，我越是和他一起拍摄，我就越感到兴奋，同时也越为最后不得不杀死他的想法感到惋惜。

And and, yes, it's true that the more I was shooting them with him, the more I was getting excited, the more I was mourning the idea that I will have to kill him at the end.

但是你看，他在电影中带来了巨大的火力，我非常感激，所有的赞誉都应归于奥斯汀。

But the see, it's it's he brings tremendous firepower in the film, and I I'm grateful to all praise to Austin.

当我们谈论弗兰克·赫伯特的才华时，这个角色以及他所代表的东西是什么，使他成为保罗这个阶段旅程中完美的对手？

When we talk about the genius of Frank Herbert, what is it about that character and what he represents that makes him the perfect antagonist for this stage in Paul's journey?

那里似乎有一些有趣的反思，一些有趣的对称性。

There seems to be some some interesting reflections, some interesting symmetry there.

所以，Zee，这完全关乎对称性。

So, Zee, it's all about symmetry.

这是一面镜子。

It's a mirror.

这是一个宿敌。

It's an nemesis.

这是一个保罗的影子角色。

It's it's a character that is the shadow of Paul.

如果保罗没有接受恰当的教育，他就有可能变成这样。

It's what Paul could become if he had not had the proper education.

他是一个被...滋养的人

He is someone that has been nourished with with the

当然，我们第一次看到这个角色的世界，第一次得以窥见孕育他的环境，如果你愿意这么说的话，是在那个标志性的黑白场景中——我甚至不确定黑白是否足以形容那种感觉，丹尼斯。

And, of course, the first time we we see this character's world, this the first time we're allowed to kind of glimpse the environment that has bred him, if you like, It's in that iconic black and white, and I don't even know if black and white really scratches the surface of what it is, Denis.

你能谈谈色彩作为叙事武器的理念吗？

Can you tell me about, like, the the idea of color as a storytelling weapon?

因为这是你在所有电影中都会运用的手法。

Because it is something that you deploy across all your films.

比如，这是你在剧本创作阶段就会考虑的事情，还是后来才决定如何用色彩来增强你所讲述的故事？

Like, is that something that you're thinking about during the screenwriting phase, or does that come later, working out how color is gonna kind of add to the story that you're telling?

我们电影人，身兼多职，但同时也是画家。

We filmmaker, we are many things, but we are painters as well.

我的意思是，我们使用色彩作为一种表达方式。

I mean, we use colors as as a way of expression.

我最喜欢书中的一点是，弗兰克·赫伯特通过文化背景、生态系统、自然和环境来塑造人类。

And I was one thing that I loved in the book was all Frank Herbert explore a culture through its its context, through the ecosystem, the the the nature, the environment, sculpting the the humans.

如果你想了解弗雷曼人，就去观察沙漠。

If you want to know about the Fremen, you observe the desert.

在沙漠中，你会理解他们的文化、科技、信仰、宗教、行为方式、诗歌，以及他们与环境的这种关系，这让我着迷。

And in the desert, you will you will understand their culture, their technology, their belief, their religion, their behaviors, their way of their poetry, and and that relationship with the environment fascinated me.

这也是我喜爱这本书的原因之一。

And it's one of the thing that I love in the book.

它如此丰富。

It's so rich.

但在阿尔基纳的世界里，我觉得我们对加迪普赖姆的关注不如书中那么多，尤其是在阿尔基纳的母星上。

And and but in the Arcanine world, I felt it was we are we are less on on Gady Prime on the book on the Arcanine Home Home World.

我感觉这颗星球显得与自然脱节了。

And I was feeling that there was this planet being disconnected.

它是加迪普赖姆，阿尔基纳世界已经毁灭了自然。

It's a a Gedi Prime, the Arcanine World has killed nature.

这是一个工业星球。

It's an industrial planet.

它变成了一个塑料星球。

It's it became a plastic planet.

我当时在寻找环境的表现形式，这些表现形式能让我们了解他们那种法西斯心理是如何在某种程度上形成的。

And and I was, like, looking for manifestation of the environment that could give us an idea on the how their psyche, their fascist psyche has been created in some part of it.

还有一个想法是，阳光可能是一条线索——如果GAD Prime上的阳光不是像我们世界那样展现色彩，而是会减灭色彩呢？

And and and the idea that sunlight could be a clue that what if the sunlight on the GAD prime subtract kill colors instead instead of revealing the colors like in our world?

我一直很喜欢探讨这样一个想法：物理定律在其他世界未必相同，我们的知识、地球的认知是有限的，还存在着与我们截然不同的其他途径和现实。

And I'm always I always love to try to play with the idea that the laws of physics are not necessarily the same in other world, that our knowledge, earth knowledge is limited, that there are other ways of other way, other realities out there that could be quite different from ours.

而那种认为暗色太阳会如此剥夺色彩的想法让我非常兴奋。

And the idea that a sun, a dark sun will subtract color like that really excited me.

首先，这会给世界带来一种纳粹法西斯式的观感，让我们想起二战时期那些黑暗年代的标志性影像。

First of all, it will create a kind of Nazi fascist look to the world, remembering us of World War II iconic images of those dark times.

同时，它也向我们揭示了这个世界残酷的同质化特性——一个非黑即白的二元世界。

And also, it will inform us about the brutality, the homogeneity of this world, a binary world.

而且这也会让这颗行星变得非常容易辨认。

And and it would also make the planet very recognizable.

就像你不需要解释你在这颗行星上一样。

It's like you would not have to explain that you're on this planet.

你显然是在盖迪主星上。

You you are on Gaidy Prime, obviously.

当然，格雷格·弗雷泽，我的摄影师，剧本里并没有这部分内容。

And, of course, Greg Fraser, my sonographer, it wasn't the screenplay.

它被嵌入到我描述这颗行星时的剧本DNA中。

It was embedded in the DNA of the screenplay when I described the planet.

但格雷格，作为一位摄影指导，当然很喜欢尝试用黑白拍摄的想法，于是他提出了使用红外线摄像机的方案。

But Greg, of course, as a sonographer, loved the idea to try to shoot in black and white, and he came with the idea of using IR infrared cameras.

我当时请格雷格和我一起头脑风暴，探讨如何营造一种怪异的外星黑白效果，而他提出了红外线的想法，经过一些测试证明这是最佳方案。

I was I was asking Greg to brainstorm with me about how could we bring a kind of eerie alien black and white, and he had this infrared idea and and which with some test appears to be the best idea.

而红外线唯一的问题在于，一旦你用红外线拍摄，就无法回头了。

And and the only problem with infrared is that when you shoot in infrared, there's no way back.

我的意思是，你所做的就已经完成了。

I mean, what what you do is done.

我的意思是，它是用红外线拍摄的。

I mean, it's it's shoot with infrared.

相机捕捉了通常被滤除的光谱部分，消除了所有颜色，只捕捉红外线。

The camera captured a part of the spectrum that is usually rejected and kills all the colors and just captured infrared.

所以它创造出那种诡异的吸血鬼感觉，皮肤呈半透明，非常乳白的半透明皮肤，眼睛则像昆虫的眼睛一样非常锐利。

So it's it create that kind of eerie vampire feeling when the skin is translucent, very milky translucent skin, and with the eye being like insect eyes very piercing.

它确实为这颗星球营造了一种强烈的噩梦般的氛围，让我非常满意。

And it really created a strong atmosphere nightmarish atmosphere to the planet that I was very happy with.

我们应该谈谈结局，丹尼斯。

We should talk about the ending, Denis.

第二部在结尾部分与原著有相当大的偏离。

Part two makes a fairly massive deviation from the books in its final act.

在电影结尾，查尼似乎基本上拒绝了保罗所变成的样子。

At the end of the movie, Chan y essentially seems to reject who Paul has become.

她拒绝向他低头。

She refuses to bow to him.

在书中，保罗可能会有一个新妻子，但她仍然是他真正的爱人。

And in the books, Paul may have a new wife, but she's still kind of his true love.

她仍然是他的知己。

She's still his confidant.

为什么要偏离原著？

Why make that departure from the source material?

这种改变意味着什么？它如何影响接下来的电影（们）完全独立于原著的可能性？

And what's to be read into that change in terms of how the next film or films plural might kind of stand alone entirely from the books?

因为《沙丘救世主》和《沙丘之子》这些故事都依赖于这两个人物始终在一起。

Because Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, they're they're stories that rely on those two characters remaining together.

这是个好问题，也是约翰·斯派特和我开始这个改编项目时做出的第一个决定。

It's it's a good question, and it was the first decision that was made when when John Spet and I started this adaptation.

我们的想法是，我们知道在拍摄这部电影时会如履薄冰，因为第一本书被错误地解读为对诗意的颂扬。

The idea was that we were we knew that we will be walking on a razor edge to bring that movie on because the first book has been wrongly perceived as a celebration of poetry.

这是弗兰克·赫伯特在首部小说问世时一直纠结的问题。

This is something that obsessed Frank Herbert when the first book came out.

他对一些读者将这本书视为对英雄的颂扬感到非常失望，他本想创作一个警示故事，警告人们警惕救世主式的人物。

He was really disappointed by the way some readers saw the book as a celebration of a hero, and he wanted to do a cautionary tale, a warning against messianic figures.

为了纠正这种看法，他写了第二本篇幅较短的书，名为《沙丘救世主》，在其中我们更清楚地理解了他的理念，保罗在那里变成了一个黑暗角色。

So in order to correct that perception, he wrote a second book, small book, called Dune Messiah, and where we understand more clearly his ideas, where Paul became a dark figure.

了解到这一点后，我们进行了这次改编，希望能更贴近弗兰克·赫伯特最初的想法。

And knowing that, we made this adaptation hoping that we'll be closer to Frank Herbert initial ideas.

我们的想法是更忠于弗兰克·赫伯特而非原著。

We were the idea was to be more faithful to Frank Herbert than to the book.

为了做到这一点，我们利用了莎妮。

And and in order to do so, we use Shanee.

莎妮，正如你正确指出的，在书中更像是一个信徒。

Shanee, as you rightly said in the book, is more like a believer.

她生活在保罗的阴影之下。

She's in the she walks in the shadow of Paul.

但在电影中，我赋予了她自己的议程，意味着她是一个对自身现实持有非常特定观点的角色。

But in in the movie, I gave her her own agenda, meaning that she has a she's a character with a very specific point of view on on her reality.

她不相信来自外部的宗教，并且她希望弗雷曼人能够自我解放，而不是依靠任何外来势力——这本身又会成为一种殖民形式。

She doesn't believe in the religion that comes from outside, and and she wants the Fremen to be freed by themselves, not by any foreign power, which will be, again, a form of colonization.

她反对殖民主义的思想，反对殖民主义本身。

She's against the colonialism of of the idea of colonialism.

而且她来自更年轻的一代，没有背负殖民主义带来的异化负担。

And she's from a younger generation that doesn't have the burden of the alienation of colonialism.

在故事中，重要的是整个结构都建立在他们之间的关系上，通过他们的关系，我们将理解这个世界政治的压力。

And it was important in the the story that it would be all structure on their relationship, that through their relationship, we will understand the the pressure of the politics of the world.

通过分离，我们将理解保罗是如何偏离他的轨迹的，以及她感到被背叛的地方，她成为了我们的道德指南针。

And through the separation, we'll understand where Paul deviated from his trajectory and and where she she feel betrayed, and she become our moral compass.

莎妮可是我们的道德指南针。

Shanice is our moral compass.

她，这就是为什么在第三幕中，正如你所提到的，这是一个不同的结局，莎妮可审判保罗，感到被保罗背叛，并不以同样的方式接受他的旅程。

She and that's why in the third act, and that's what you referred to is the it's a different ending where Shanice judged Paul and feel betrayed by Paul and doesn't embrace his journey in the same way.

我觉得这使得 Shan Yi 首先成为我们的道德指南，让我们在结尾处传达出这是一个警示故事的理念。

And I felt that it made Shan Yi first, again, our moral compass, so we can lend the idea at the end that it's a cautionary tale.

而且，这也让她成为一个更充实、更现代、更当代的角色，我觉得她有趣得多。

And also, it make her a more substantial, more modern, more contemporary character that I feel much more interesting.

这有让第三部电影的编剧变得更复杂吗？

Has it complicated the writing of the third film?

因为，正如我所说，你无法再那么依赖原著材料。

Because, as I say, like, you're not able to rely quite so keenly on the source material.

你把自己逼进了个有趣的困境，需要想办法脱身。

You've backed yourself into an interesting corner to work your way out of.

我会说，我谨慎地不去谈论那些尚未存在的东西。

I I will say that I'm not I I was cautious to talk about things that don't exist yet.

我的意思是，我现在正在写的正是第三部电影。

I mean, it's like the the third movie I'm writing right now.

所以，写作时总有一种脆弱感，这是我始终感受到的。

So it's like something that I feel that there's always a vulnerability when you write.

我觉得我想保留一些惊喜。

It's like and I think that I want to keep some surprises.

但可以说，恰恰相反，这为下一部电影提供了很多素材，那种角色间的张力。

But let's say that, no, on the contrary, it's a it's a lot of fuel to fight another movie, that tension between character.

我在这次通话开始时说过，你的电影常常聚焦于人性中那些我们似乎无法摆脱的、令人沮丧的循环部分。

I said at the top of this call that your your films often spotlight these kind of cyclical parts of human nature that depressingly we're unable seemingly to break out of.

例如，由于当前世界上的冲突，我最近一直在思考《降临》这部电影，以及它关于对话的必要性，但也关于对话的不可能性，因为人性的默认模式是暴力，这是我最近一直在脑海中回响的事情。

For example, I've been thinking a lot about Arrival recently as a result of the conflicts in the world at the moment and what that film had to say about the necessity of dialogue, but also the kind of impossibility of dialogue because human nature's default mode is one of violence, that's just something that's been kind of resonating in my head of late.

丹尼，你是否相信电影能够帮助传播那些有助于打破这些循环的理念？

Do you believe, Denny, that cinema can help disseminate ideas that help break those cycles?

这是你从事这项工作的部分原因吗？

Is that part of why you do what you do?

绝对是的。

Absolutely.

电影是一种非常强大的表达艺术形式，即便不是最强大的。

Cinema is a very powerful art form of expression, if not the most powerful.

而且你能激发同理心。

And and you can generate empathy.

你能促成对话。

You can generate a dialogue.

你能搭建桥梁。

You can build bridge.

我说这话是带着谦逊的。

I say that with humility.

我的意思是，这不是一部电影，而是一系列电影共同构建了这座桥梁。

I mean, it's like not a I think it's a corpus of movie, an amount of movie that can build a bridge.

我们需要这样一种艺术形式，它能在人与人、文化与文化、国家与国家之间架起桥梁。

We need, but any art form is important in that regard to the bridges between humans, between cultures, between countries.

我认为电影可以成为一种让我们更紧密相连的行动。

It's like but I believe that cinema can be an act that bring us closer together.

而这正是这种心灵农场的美妙之处——你能在屏幕上呈现思想与情感，再次增进人与人之间的同理心。

And and that's the beauty of this heart farm, where you can bring ideas and and and emotion on the screen to and, again, to increase empathy between humans.

我相信这是一种能够发挥作用的形式。

And I believe that it it's a it's a form that can has a has a way to to it can help.

它能有所帮助。

It can help.

丹尼，你曾说过，下一部电影将是你在该系列中的最后一部。

You've said, Denny, that the the next film will be your last in the franchise.

假设该系列在你离开后仍继续拍摄——制片厂通常都会这么做——你个人特别希望看到哪些新兴导演，甚至已成名的导演，来接手阿拉基斯的世界？

Assuming that the franchise forges on afterwards, without you as studios are won't to do, are there particular emerging filmmakers or even established filmmakers who you would personally love to see step into the world of Arrakis?

这真是个疯狂的问题，我还没准备好回答，就像……丹尼斯，你妻子会甩了你。

That is a crazy question, and I'm not ready to it's like well, Denis, your wife will quit you.

她会离开你，你能想到任何丈夫会对你感兴趣吗？

And she will can you see any husband out there that could be interesting for you?

不行，先生。

No, sir.

我无法想象这件事。

I cannot think about it.

但但说实话，如果真的发生这种情况，我会说毁灭属于每个人。

But but, honestly, if it happens, I'd say doom belongs to everybody.

如果在那之后真的会有第四部电影，并且有电影制作人愿意接手，我一定会充满热情和谦逊地提供帮助，是的，因为我非常热爱这个世界。

And I'll be very if ever there's an a fourth movie that happens after something like that and and there's a filmmaker out there that will want to to go behind the wheel, I'll be there to help definitely with with passion and humility, yeah, because it's a world I absolutely adore.

当你结束人生这一篇章时，你认为自己会是怎样的心情？

What do you think will be the emotion for you when you do close this chapter of your life?

这已经花费了你十多年的时间。

It's been over a decade for you.

丹尼斯，上次我见到你时，你正在拍摄《银翼杀手2049》。

The last time I saw you, Denis, you were in the midst of Blade Runner 2049.

《沙丘》还完全在前方等着你，你对接手那个备受喜爱的科幻项目充满了忧虑。

Dune was all ahead of you, and you had so much trepidation about taking on that beloved sci fi project.

自那以后，你完成了这部作品，就像是职业生涯中的一个巨大篇章，人生中的一个重要阶段。

You've since made this one, like, this huge chapter of your career, this huge chapter of your life.

你觉得在下一部电影之后告别这个系列，对你来说意味着什么？

What do you think it will mean to you to to say goodbye after the next film?

有那么一刻，当我意识到我完成了第一部书的改编，实现了我最大的梦想之一。

There's a moment where when I realized that I did the the adaptation of the first book, that I did the the what I one of my biggest dream.

我当时情绪非常激动，而且我现在还在自我激励。

I had a strong emotion, and and I'm still pitching myself.

奇怪的是，我需要时间来消化这个想法。

And it's strangely it takes me to process the idea.

我需要时间来接受我确实有机会完成这个改编的事实。

It's it take it will take me time to process the idea that I did I did I had the chance to make this adaptation.

但说实话，我根本无法离开这个世界。

But to tell you how much I cannot I could not quit the world.

我依然有精力和灵感至少第三次重返厄拉科斯。

I still have the energy and the inspiration to go back on Arrakis at least the third time.

所以我认为哀悼的过程会很漫长。

So I'm not the mourning process will be long.

我这么说是因为这些年来，几十年来，每次翻开这本书，我依然能找到同样深沉的喜悦。

It's I say that because every time, after all these years, all these decades, every time I open this book, I still find the same deep joy.

这是一种被弗兰克·赫伯特的诗意所震撼、着迷、催眠的喜悦。

And it's joy of being amazed, mesmerized, hypnotized by by the poetry of Frank Herbert.

而我...我只是感激这团火焰这些年来一直保持着燃烧。

And I I I'm I'm just grateful that the flames kept was kept alive all those years.

丹尼斯，我认为人们也会与你的电影建立同样的情感联结。

I think people are gonna have the same relationship with your films, Denis.

我该让你去忙了。

I should let you go.

时间到了，但丹尼斯，我今天非常享受这次对话。

We're out of time, but I've enjoyed this conversation so much today, Denis.

我我热爱你的作品。

I I love your work.

这些年来我一直很喜欢我们所有的互动，我非常期待第三部，尤其因为我现在知道里面会有舞蹈场面。

I've loved I've loved all our interactions over the years, and I'm really looking forward to part three, not least because I now know there's gonna be a dance number in it.

这是个挑战。

That's a challenge.

好吧。

Alright.

和你聊天很愉快。

It was nice talking to you.

我现在得想想那个舞蹈桥段了。

I need to think about the dance number now.

保重。

Take care.

谢谢这场愉快的对话。

Thanks for the nice conversation.

您正在收听《Script Apart》。

You've been listening to Script Apart.

非常感谢您的收听。

Thank you so much for tuning in.

提醒一下，如果您希望帮助本节目持续发展，可以通过访问 patreon.com forward slash script apart 或点击今天节目说明中的链接，加入我们的 Patreon。

A reminder that if you want to help the show continue to grow, you can join us on Patreon by visiting patreon.com forward slash script apart or clicking the link in today's show notes.

再次感谢您的参与。

Thanks again for joining us.

我们下次再见。

We'll see you next time.