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大家好。
Hello, everyone.
欢迎收听《心灵景观》播客。
Welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.
我是你们的主持人，卡罗尔。
I'm your host, Carroll.
你可能听说过，地球上的生命物种正以异常高的速度灭绝。
You may have heard that species of life forms here on Earth are dying out at an unusually high rate.
这种现象有时被称为第六次大灭绝、全新世大灭绝或人类世大灭绝，这只是相对于物种自然灭绝的速度而言，而物种灭绝当然是始终存在的。
Sometimes this is called the sixth extinction or the Holocene extinction or the Anthropocene extinction just compared to the rate at which species go extinct, which, of course, always happens.
没有哪个时期能长时间没有物种灭绝，因为生命是动态的，总会有事情发生，但灭绝的速度会随着时间改变。
There's never any moment where no species go extinct for an extended period because life is dynamic and things happen, but the rate can change over time.
在数百万年前的过去历史上，曾经发生过一系列灾难性的灭绝事件，但现在，物种正以明显高于平常的速度消亡，我们清楚原因。
There have been a series of catastrophic extinctions in past history millions of years ago, But right now, species are dying out at a greater than usual rate noticeably, and we know why.
原因就在于我们，在于人类以各种方式改变了地球。
It's because of us, because of human beings changing the planets in different ways.
但现在的情况是否真能称为新的大规模灭绝事件，其实还有点争议。长期收听《心灵景观》的听众应该不会意外，这个问题其实挺复杂的。
But the precise extent to which what's going on right now is best described as a new massive extinction event is slightly controversial, and long time Mindscape listeners will not be surprised to learn the situation is somewhat complicated in various ways.
所以并不是说物种没有在灭绝。
So it's not that species are not going extinct.
这一点是千真万确的。
That's absolutely true.
但用这种方式来理解当前发生的事情，是不是对的想法呢？
But is that the right way to think about what is happening?
总的来说，人类正在给地球、生物圈和生态系统带来各种各样的变化，物种灭绝只是其中的一部分。
In general, human beings are causing all sorts of changes to the earth, to the biosphere, to the ecosystem, and species going extinct is part of that.
但这是不是最关键的部分呢？
But is it the most important part?
是不是特别的那部分？
Is it the special part?
还有哪些其他事情正在发生，如果我们认为有理由去阻止现在正在发生的事情，我们又能做些什么呢？
What else is going on, and what can we possibly do about it if we think that there is a cause to stop what is going on right now?
今天的嘉宾凯尔·哈珀其实是一位历史学家，但他一直觉得，科学、自然历史，以及理解人类所居住地球的物理和生物学，应该是历史的重要组成部分。
So today's guest, Kyle Harper, is actually a historian, but he's he's a historian who has long felt that science, natural history, the understanding the physics and biology of the earth on which human beings live should be an important part of history.
环境如何塑造人类历史，这一点已经得到了充分的研究。
And the way that the environment shapes human history has been well studied.
而气候变化现在对环境造成的影响，也得到了充分的研究。
And what climate change is right now doing to the environment has been well studied.
但人类如何影响他们的环境和我们所生活的世界，这整个历史过程，研究得还稍微少一些。
But the whole sort of history of how human beings have affected their environments and the world in which we live is a little bit less studied.
凯尔的新书叫《最后的动物：从冰河时代到第六次大灭绝的人类历史与地球生命的命运》。
So Kyle's new book is called The Last Animal, Human History and the Fate of Life on Earth from the Ice Age to the Sixth Extinction.
他从历史学家的视角出发，从人类开始农耕和驯化其他物种的时候讲起，讲述这如何改变了周围存在的各种物种。
And he takes a historian's view and he starts from when human beings were first starting agriculture and domestication of other species and so forth, how that changed the different kinds of species that are around.
这不仅仅是物种死亡的数量问题，而是哪些物种在消亡，以及这不仅影响物种的数量，还影响它们之间相互作用的复杂网络。
And it's not just the number of species that are dying, but it's which ones and how that affects not just the numerical quantity of species, but the complex web with which they interact with each other.
他一直讲到现在，确实气候变化和其他因素正在产生重要影响。
He takes it right up to the present day where indeed climate change and other things are having an important impact.
所以我们在播客结尾尝试以乐观的语调收场，因为这是我们在Mindscape一贯的做法。
So we tried at the end of the podcast to end on a optimistic note because that's what we like to do here at Mindscape.
但要想乐观，首先得现实，看清世界和正在发生的事情，把事实搞清楚，了解真相，这正是这一集的核心。
But, you know, to be optimistic means to first be realistic, to look at the world and what's happening, get your facts straight, understand what is going on, and that's what this particular episode is all about.
我们作为人类物种选择怎么应对，这取决于我们自己。
What we as a species choose to do about it, that's gonna be up to us.
那我们就开始吧。
So let's go.
凯尔·哈珀，欢迎来到Mindscape播客。
Kyle Harper, welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.
嗨，肖恩。
Hi, Sean.
我是这个节目的忠实粉丝。
I'm a big fan of the show.
感谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
哦，太好了。
Oh, very good.
我们就喜欢这样的嘉宾。
We love those kinds of guests.
我知道我们在谈的是……
I know that we're talking about...
你的新书里涉及了很多大问题，比如人类、灭绝、生物圈之类的，但我更好奇的是你的研究轨迹。
There's very big issues that came up in your new book about humanity and extinctions and the biosphere and things like that, but I'm a little bit curious about the trajectory.
你一开始写的是关于古罗马的书，那也是历史学家该做的事。
You know, you started writing books about ancient Rome, and that's what historians were supposed to do.
这个我们理解。
We understand that.
那是历史，古罗马嘛。
That's history, ancient Rome.
然后不知怎么的，现在你又谈起了生物多样性之类的话题。
And then somehow, now you're talking about biodiversity and and things like that.
跟我们讲讲你是从哪里开始，又怎么走到今天这个方向的。
Tell us a little bit about how you get from A to B.
其实我是个历史学家，我希望有一天大家不会觉得这种转型很奇怪或者不寻常。
Well, I'm a historian who would love to see a world where that doesn't seem quite as as weird or unusual as it might.
说到个人经历，我大学本科的时候，对人文和科学都特别感兴趣。
And to tell it in personal terms, I as a as a student, as an undergraduate, loved both the humanities and the sciences.
但到了研究生阶段，你不得不做出选择，虽然这有它的道理，但也会带来一些不好的后果。
And when you go to graduate school, you have to you have to pick for for good reasons, but also with some some negative consequences.
不过我很幸运，我读历史学博士的时候，老师们很鼓励我培养对自然科学的兴趣。
But I was very fortunate to go to a PhD program in history where I was really encouraged to cultivate my interest in the natural sciences.
而且我赶上了一个好时机，因为现在从事历史研究的人，能借助各种不同的自然学科来更好地理解人类的过去。
It also turned out to be good timing because people who work in history right now benefit from all kinds of different ways that what you might would consider natural science fields are helping us understand the human past.
这包括像古气候学这样的领域。
That includes things like paleoclimatology.
当然，我们迫切需要了解气候系统是如何运作的，但这自然就要求我们去研究它在过去不同条件下是怎么运转的。
Obviously, there's a very urgent need to understand how the climate system works, but that inevitably means you have to understand how it's worked in the past and under different conditions.
所以，在古气候学方面已经有了很多很棒的研究和大量的资金支持，用来重建地球系统的历史动态和状态。
And so there's been a lot of great research and a lot of funding for research in paleoclimatology reconstructing the past dynamics and states of the Earth's system.
所以，对我们这些比如说研究罗马史的人来说，这个研究并不是为了我们而资助的，但确实让我们受益了。如果现在我们突然有了高分辨率的古气候代用记录，告诉我们人类历史时期的气候情况，那我们就能开始提出新问题，拥有新数据。
And so for those of us who are, say, in Roman history, this wasn't funded with the goal or intention to benefit us, but it does benefit us if all of a sudden we now have high resolution paleoclimate proxy records that tell us what the climate was doing in the human past, we can then start to ask new questions and we have new data.
所以作为历史学家，我不仅天生对科学有兴趣，还受益于各种新奇酷炫的数据。
So as a historian, I've really not only just have the kind of natural inclination for the sciences, but have benefited from the fact that there's all kinds of cool new data.
DNA可能是最重要的一块。
DNA is probably the big one.
DNA测序能力的进步简直是突飞猛进，不仅能测现代活人的样本，还能测古代DNA、考古发现的死人DNA，这些能告诉我们人类的进化，还有动物和微生物的进化。
Just the advances, leaps and bounds in the ability to sequence DNA, both DNA taken from recent samples, living people, but also from ancient DNA, archaeological DNA taken from dead people, that tell us about the evolution of humanity, but also the evolution of animals, the evolution of microbes.
所以作为历史学家，这大概就是我走向环境史的途径。环境史是一种试图理解我们在自然世界中位置的历史学，它既有人文的一面，也有科学的一面。
And so as a historian, that was sort of my my pathway into environmental history, a kind of history that tries to understand our place in the natural world that, you know, it's partly humanistic, but it's partly scientific.
我想你不小心勾起了我的好奇心。
I think you have mistakenly piqued my interest here.
我们到底有多少古代DNA？
How much ancient DNA do we have?
比如说，有多少古罗马人的DNA被测序了？
Like, how many ancient Romans have we sequenced their DNA?
这个问题嘛，我可以告诉你，十年前这个数字是零。
So, I can tell you ten years ago that number was zero.
而到了今天，已经发表的、从罗马时期测序的完整人类基因组数量大概有几千个了。
And today the number of, published complete human genomes sequenced from the Roman period would be on the order of a couple of thousand.
所以这还是个新兴领域，还很新。
So it's still new, still new.
关于意大利人群的研究，大概也就发表了五篇论文左右。
There have been maybe five papers on populations from Italy.
我参与的一个团队发表了150多个来自罗马时期多瑙河地区、塞尔维亚的基因组。
Then I was part of a team that published 150 something genomes from the Roman Danube, Serbia.
我们还有一篇关于罗马时期西班牙的论文即将发表。
We've got a paper that's about to come out on Roman Spain.
这个数字正在快速增长，增长得很快。
Number is quickly, quickly growing.
这意味着更多的样本不仅仅是扩大了图景。
That means more samples doesn't just sort of expand the the picture.
它让你能问出更深层的问题。
It lets you ask deeper and deeper questions.
你有更强的研究能力。
You have higher power.
你能提出各种疯狂的问题，现在真正的挑战是，得飞快地构思新问题，才能跟上这惊人的数据。
You can ask all sorts of crazy questions that, you know, the challenge now is almost inventing the questions fast enough to keep up with the amazing data.
有没有什么特别让你感到意外的发现？
Is there anything in particular that we've learned that has surprised you a little bit?
哦，太多了……
Oh, there have been tons of...
确实有很多真正的意外发现，有些情况下，古DNA能回答以前根本无法回答的问题。
I mean, really, like, true surprises where in some cases, ancient DNA can answer questions that you just didn't have the ability to answer before.
其中一个重大发现就是黑死病的病原体，我们原本以为已经知道了，但其实还有大量疑问。
I mean, of the big ones is sort of like what pathogen caused the Black Death where we thought we knew, but there were lots of questions.
查士丁尼大瘟疫是什么病原体引起的？
What pathogen caused the plague of Justinian?
所以有时候它能回答你明知道该去问的问题。
So sometimes it answers questions that you know you should be asking.
然后有时候它又让你回答那些你压根没想到该去问的问题。
And then sometimes it it, like, causes you to to answer questions you didn't know you should be asking.
就像我提到的那篇关于罗马塞尔维亚的论文，那个地区对罗马帝国特别重要，所有晚期罗马皇帝都来自那里，比如君士坦丁、戴克里先。
So like the paper I mentioned from Roman Serbia, which is a really important region for the Roman empire, all the late Roman emperors come from here, like Constantine Diocletian.
这是我们认为非常非常罗马化的一个重要省份。
This is a really important province that we think of as deeply, deeply Romanized.
它变成了一个说拉丁语的省份。
It becomes a Latin speaking province.
而且我们从历史文字资料里找到各种证据，罗马军团来了，他们建立殖民地，修建城市。
And we have in historical, like written sources, all kinds of evidence that the Roman legions come and they, you know, are colonizing, building cities.
我们假定有大量来自意大利的人涌入并接管了这个地区。
We assume that there's a huge number of people from Italy flowing in and taking over this region.
当然，随着我们获得越来越多的基因组，这个画面还会继续变化，但150个样本对于这个高度罗马化的多瑙河行省首府来说，已经算是一个相当不错的初始样本了。
Of course, picture will continue to evolve as we get more and more genomes, but 150 is a pretty good starting sample from highly Romanized context of this Danubian provincial capital.
里面没有一个人来自意大利。
There's nobody from Italy.
我们找不到任何基因组的痕迹，即使在后续几代人中也是如此，你可能会想，因为这些人大都是二、三、四世纪的人。
We can't find traces of the genomes, even in subsequent generations, you'd expect because a lot of these people are from second, third, fourth century.
他们肯定有孩子、孙子和曾孙。
Surely they had kids and grandkids and great grandkids.
所以至少在这个地区，这就开始让你思考：等等，如果殖民并不意味着人口真的迁移到殖民地，那殖民到底意味着什么？
And so at least in this region, starts to make you ask, wait, what what did colonization mean if it didn't actually mean the movement of people into colonies?
这是一种没有罗马人的罗马化。
This is a kind of Romanization without Romans.
这只是一个例子。
That's just one example.
在罗马帝国，到处都是来自东地中海的人，在意大利、塞尔维亚、西班牙，哪里都有。
There are so many people from the East Mediterranean in the Roman Empire everywhere, in Italy, in Serbia, in Spain.
而且，我们现在其实还不理解这一点。
And, like, we don't understand this now.
所以奴隶制度很可能是在抓捕人口。
So the slave system is probably capturing people.
我们知道罗马人有很多奴隶。
We know the Romans have lots of slaves.
但是，我们现在确实还没有真正搞清楚，为什么那么多来自安纳托利亚和叙利亚的人会出现在罗马帝国的各个角落。
But, like, we don't actually really have a good understanding right now of how so many people from Anatolia and Syria end up everywhere in the Roman Empire?
所以这成了一个热门话题，以前我们真的没怎么问过。
And so that's kind of a hot question that really we weren't asking before.
是的，有很多很多有趣的新知识，我们正在努力消化。
So, yeah, there's lots of lots of cool new knowledge that we're we're grappling with.
嗯，这引出了我想问的另一个问题，因为，在早期的……
Well, it gets into another question I wanted to ask because, like, already in the the early...
你早期关于罗马的研究，也谈到了自然灾害，比如瘟疫之类的。
Your early work on Rome, you were also talking about the natural world, you know, with plagues and things like that.
但还有一条完全不同的思路，就是思想如何影响历史。你提到基督教早期的影，以及它确实在某些方面改变了人们。
But then there's this whole separate thread of ideas and how they affect history, and you talk about the early effect of Christianity and how, like, it really did change people in some ways.
那你的意思是，在塞尔维亚罗马人中，殖民更多体现在思想上，而不是身体上？
And are are you saying that in the Serbian Romans, the colonization was more in the mind than in the body?
对，没错。
Well, yeah.
当然，就像我说的，随着更多基因组的发现，我们也会找到更多答案。
And of course, like I say, we'll we'll find out with more genomes too.
但我认为那绝对……
But but I think that absolutely is...
是答案的重要组成部分。
To be a big part of the answer.
而且它真的，比如……
And and it really, like...
我想回到我之前说的那一点，就是这确实很难解释。
I'll go back to the point I made that it's hard to explain.
比如，统治罗马帝国最后三个世纪的所有皇帝，都来自一个今天塞尔维亚多瑙河畔、大约苏格兰那么大的小地方。
Like, all of the the people who ruled the Roman Empire for the last three centuries all come from a tiny area about the size of Scotland that's right there on the Danube in Serbia today.
所有罗马皇帝都来自那里。
They all come from there, all of these Roman emperors.
他们声称要恢复罗马帝国。
And they claim to restore the Roman empire.
而且他们比罗马人还罗马。
And they're sort of like more Roman than the Romans.
现在我们必须把这个故事看作一个深刻的文化意识形态变革，深到连语言都改变了。
And now now we have to think of this story as one where, like, it's a cultural ideological change, but it's deep enough that they change their language.
他们崇拜罗马的神。
You know, they they worship the Roman gods.
这是一个极其深刻的转变。
It's a deep, deep transformation.
我猜，如果你是个专业历史学家，可能有种诱惑——我在这儿可能有点不公平，但你可以把该有的微妙细节加进去——但人们确实有一个视角，一种观点。
And I guess there's probably some temptation if you're a professional historian to I'm gonna be unfair here so you can put the nuance in where it belongs, but people have, like, a lens, a point of view.
有些人会觉得思想是最重要的。
I mean, some people are gonna think that the ideas are the most important thing.
另一些人会觉得政府和军事才是最重要的。
Other people are gonna think that government and military is most important thing.
还有人可能觉得地理和生态最重要，但这些因素都在，你得想办法平衡它们。
Some people might think that geography and ecology are the most important thing, but they're all there, and you have to balance them somehow.
好消息是，这能让历史学家们一直有活干，至少在可预见的未来是这样。
Well, the good news is that's gonna keep historians employed for the for the foreseeable future.
人类社会很复杂，我们都有自己的偏爱理论，而且通常都跟你——
Human societies are complex and, you know, we all have our our pet theories and it usually goes back to whatever you're...
你博士论文写的是什么有关。
You wrote your dissertation on.
对。
Yep.
但这也是人类社会的好的一面，它们是我们已知的最复杂的东西，从地理到他们崇拜的神，有很多重要的方面，这些对你真正想问的问题都很关键。
But but that's the good thing about human society is they are they are the most complex thing we know of and so many important dimensions from geography to, the gods that they worship that are that are actually important for questions that you might really wanna ask.
那你觉得，是什么特别让你觉得我们……
And so what is it that particularly made you think, you know, we...
我必须了解人类是如何影响生物圈的。
I have to understand how humans are affecting the biosphere.
是……
I mean, was...
我觉得，有一部分原因就是纯粹的“现时主义”。
I I think in part, like, it's just pure presentism.
比如，人们有时会对这个感到焦虑。
Like, people sometimes get anxious about this.
显然，我们不想用自己的标准去评判过去。
And, obviously, we don't want to judge the past by our standards.
我们也不想扭曲过去，让它去迎合我们的世界观。
We don't want to distort the past to, you know, make it fit into our view of the world.
但历史学家也是普通人，我们对集体和个人生活中面临的问题和挑战感兴趣。
But historians are, you know, normal people, and we're interested in the problems and challenges we face in our lives collectively and individually.
你带着这种心态去读文本。
And you bring that with you when you go and you read a text.
所以，上世纪70年代的历史学家开始认真对待性别问题，这绝非偶然。
And so, you know, it's no accident that it was historians in the 70s who started taking gender seriously.
他们生活在第二波女权运动和性革命的时代。
They lived in a world of the, you know, second wave feminism and sexual revolution.
所以他们去读同样的文本，突然之间，他们看到了不同的东西。
And so they went and they read the same texts, and all of a sudden, they were seeing different things.
部分原因是，我们生活的世界里，我们面临的最深远的挑战是我们与自然世界、环境、气候变化和生物多样性的关系。
And so partly, we live in a world where some of the the most profound challenges we face are our relationship with the natural world, environment, climate change, biodiversity.
所以当你读古代文本时，你会对某些东西更加敏感，这些可能在前几代人看来并不那么显眼。
And so when you read an ancient text, you're sort of sensitized to to see things that maybe weren't as, you know, leaping off the page in the same way for previous generations.
部分原因是，我们正……
Partly it's that that we're...
正如我之前说的，我们正在学习新东西。
As I said before, we're learning new things.
作为历史学家，你总是想做出尽可能大的贡献。
And as a historian, you know, you're always you always kind of wanna make the biggest contribution that you can.
有时候这来自于写第一千篇关于塔西佗的论文什么的。
And sometimes that comes from writing the thousandth dissertation on Tacitus or whatever.
但当我们拿到能告诉你真正惊人新信息的DNA序列时，那就让人忍不住了。
But then when you know we're getting DNA sequence that tells you truly surprising new information, that's just sort of irresistible.
有点像磁铁一样吸引人。
It's kinda magnetic.
你会被它吸引住。
You're drawn to it.
然后……
And...
好，
Okay.
所以效果是……
So the effect...
关于环境或地理等因素如何影响人类历史，已经有很多文章讨论过了。
I mean, there's been a bunch written about how the environment or geography or whatever affects human history.
从某种意义上说，我们现在是在反向思考，探讨我们是如何影响环境和周围世界的。
And in some sense, we're now sort of flipping it on its head and saying how how have we affected the environment and the world around us.
大家都知道我们现在对环境影响很大，但你新书的一部分内容是说，这种事情我们其实已经做了很久了。
Everyone knows we're doing that now, but part of your new book is, we've been doing that for a very long time.
没错，我们已经做了非常非常久。
And, we've been doing it for a very, very long time.
而且，这是……
And, it was a...
其实，“ shifting baseline syndrome”这个词是海洋生态学家提出的，它描述的是人类和科学界的一种自然倾向。
It was marine ecologists who came up with the term shifting baseline syndrome, which is the kind of natural, both human and scientific tendency.
你想测量某个东西，所以你需要一个可测量的基准。
You want to measure something, so you need something that you can measure.
我们生活在人类的时间尺度上，所以往往也以这个尺度来思考问题。
We live and therefore tend to think on human timescales.
当我们衡量像人类如何改变生态系统这样的事情时，有很多固有的偏见，倾向于建立一个基准线，然后牢牢固定，从那时起开始测量。
When we measure something like how humans have changed ecosystems, there are a lot of inbuilt sort of prejudices towards trying to establish a baseline that we can lay down, make firm, measure since that time.
但如果你想问人类对生物圈的影响从哪里开始，或者甚至这不是我的——我不想扯太远，但这实际上是个非常有趣且悬而未决的问题。
But if you want to ask, you know, where does human impact on the biosphere start Or even, you know, this isn't my I don't want to get us off too much on this, but like it's actually a really interesting question and an open question.
人类什么时候开始影响气候系统？
When do humans start to influence the climate system?
因为在这个领域里有严肃的论点认为，从某种角度看，农业的起源、森林砍伐、水稻种植，在非常早的时候就导致人类改变了全球行星气候动态，那是几千年前，甚至八千年到一万年前。
Because there are serious arguments in the field that in some ways the origins of agriculture, deforestation, rice farming contribute to human alteration of the global planetary climate dynamics very, very early, thousands of years ago, eight, ten thousand years ago.
所以这在领域内仍然是有争议的。
So that's sort of still contested in the field.
但我认为人类对生物多样性的影响其实并不是那么模糊。
But I think the human impact on biodiversity is actually less ambiguous.
我们对周围世界的自然和多样性产生了影响，真的已经有几十万年了，尤其是近几万年以来，影响方式非常显著。
I mean, have been influencing the nature and diversity of the world around us really for hundreds of thousands of years, but particularly for tens of thousands of years in really, really dramatic ways.
所以滑动基准线是个非常棘手的问题，因为你总是想抓住某个东西，然后开始数数。
And so the shifting baseline is a really hard problem because you want to be able to grab onto something and start counting things.
但我们总是要保持批判性，意识到这可能是一个随意的决定，或者遗漏一些可能有趣的东西。
But we always have to be sort of critical and aware that that's liable to be a kind of arbitrary decision or to leave out things that might be interesting.
因此，我们对生物多样性影响的故事可以一直追溯到更新世。
And so the story of how we've impacted biodiversity goes back easily to the Pleistocene.
我虽然不是真正的行业巨头，但即便是像我这样的教授，也得考虑如何让新人上手，无论是学生还是博士后。
I'm not really a captain of industry, but even a professor like myself has to think about onboarding new people, whether they be students or postdocs.
对于真正的行业巨头来说，这是一个更加艰巨的挑战。
For real captains of industry, that's an even more daunting challenge.
新人自然会问很多相同的问题。
New people naturally ask a lot of the same questions.
那些对老员工来说显而易见的事情，对他们来说却是神秘莫测的。
Things that are obvious to everyone who's been around for a while are mysterious to them.
这就是 Scribe 这个平台要解决的问题。
This is the problem that Scribe was built to solve.
Scribe 是一个专业智能平台，被 94% 的财富 500 强公司所信赖，它能自动生成关于你们公司运作方式的文档，无需手动撰写，也不用在新人加入时从零开始。
Scribe is a specialized intelligence platform trusted by 94% of the Fortune 500 that automatically generates documentation for how your company works with no manual writing or starting from scratch when someone new joins the team.
你的团队和你的AI都能用它捕捉到的内容。
Your team and your AI can both use what it captures.
而且Scribe会自动从每张截图中删除敏感信息、姓名、账号或电子邮件。
And Scribe automatically redacts sensitive info, names, account numbers, or emails from every screenshot.
作为管理员，你可以在整个团队中控制并执行这一设置，所以没有经过人工审核，任何内容都不会发布。
And as an admin, you control and enforce that across the whole team, So nothing is published without human review.
Scribe是基于你实际工作流程训练的AI，而不是基于互联网。
Scribe is AI trained on your actual workflow, not on the Internet.
所以它能提供关于你工作实际情况的见解，而不只是猜测。
So it provides insight into how your work actually happens, not just guesses.
了解更多，请访问scribe.how/mindscape，并提到Mindscape，即可在特定套餐中享受第一个月Scribe Capture免费。
Learn more at scribe.how/mindscape, and mention Mindscape for your first month of Scribe Capture Free on select plans.
网址是scribe.how/mindscape。
That's scribe.how/mindscape.
想象一下，给孩子买了个玩具，结果发现电池不在包装里。
Imagine buying your kid a toy only to find the batteries aren't included.
或者买家具，却发现缺少组装工具。
Or buying furniture but it's missing the tools to build it.
很让人抓狂，对吧？
Frustrating, right?
现在想象一下同样的那种感觉，但你花的钱要多得多。
Now imagine that exact same feeling but you are paying way more.
这就是购买商业软件通常给人的感觉——零散、不连贯，而且极其昂贵。
That's what buying business software usually feels like fragmented, disconnected, and incredibly expensive.
Odoo彻底改变了这一点。
Odoo completely changes that.
Odoo是一套完整、高度集成的商业套件，所有应用之间真正实现互联互通。
Odoo is a complete, fully integrated business suite where all your apps actually talk to each other.
我们说的是为销售团队自动分配线索，无缝集成AI，还有直观的拖拽式网站构建器。
We're talking automated lead routing for your sales teams, seamless AI integration and an intuitive point and click website builder.
它包含了企业扩张所需的一切，为你节省时间、减少麻烦，还能省钱。
It's everything your business needs to scale saving you time, headaches and money.
所以别再东拼西凑你的软件了。
So stop piecing your software together.
去 odoo.com/mindscape 看看吧。
Go to odoo.com/mindscape.
就是 odoo.com/mindscape，了解更多。
That's odoo.com/mindscape to learn more.
那么，让我问一个看似特别简单，但回答起来却无比复杂的问题。
Well, let me ask one of those questions that sounds super simple to ask, but is endlessly complicated to answer.
人类是什么时候开始的？
When did humanity begin?
先别管人类对环境的影响，而是，你知道，什么时候……
Forget about humanity's effect on the environment, but, know, when did...
你才会说，好，
When do you say, okay.
现在有真正的人类在做这些事情了。
There's humans doing this work now.
这是个很好的问题，我的人类学同事可能会对我进行事实核查。
I mean, it's a it's a great question and, my my colleagues in anthropology will probably fact check me.
但哈佛的灵长类动物学家、人类学家理查德·兰厄姆在他的书《点燃》中用了这样一个类比，我在教大历史课程或回顾人类历史最初几百万年时，会用到这个类比。
But there's a there's a an analogy that, that, Richard Wrangham uses in his book Catching Fires, the Harvard primatologist anthropologist, that I use with my students when I'm teaching kind of a big history course or sort of like moving through the first few million years of human history.
在某种程度上，南方古猿是我们认为不属于人类的猿类，但人属的成员在某种意义上是非常深奥且难以捉摸的，他们是人类。
That in some sense, australopithecines are apes that we would sort of think of as not human, but members of the genus Homo are human in a way that's somehow very profound and sort of difficult to put your finger on.
他用的类比是，你可能会把南方古猿关在动物园里，说它们和黑猩猩一样令人惊叹。
But the analogy he uses is australopithecines you would probably put in a zoo and say they're amazing the way that chimps are.
而对于人属的成员，你可能会邀请他们共进晚餐，尝试交谈，并且毫不犹豫地赋予他们法律权利。
Members of the genus Homo, you would probably invite to dinner and try and have a conversation, you would give legal rights without too much question.
因此，这意味着我们要追溯到大约两百六十万年前，或者类似的时间点，如果你想说在人类进化路径的某个阶段，比如直立人，他们制造工具、控制火种、拥有符号语言。
And so that means that we're looking at two point six million years or something, if you want to say that really somewhere along the evolutionary path of our lineage, Homo erectus maybe, is making tools, controls fire, has symbolic language.
确实，这会让人觉得这就是人类。
And really, would feel like this is a human.
所以有时人类学家会说“古老型人类”，指代那些属于我们但又不完全是我们的物种，不是智人，但和人类很像的那些物种。
And so sometimes anthropologists will talk about archaic humans, to refer to these species that are us, but not fully us, not homo sapiens, but are like human.
你会用“人类”这个词，而且你会觉得这么说很有道理。
You would use the word human, and you would say that that's a very defensible thing.
他们有象征性语言。
They have symbolic language.
他们很可能是相当利他、合作、有创造力的存在。
They're probably fairly altruistic, cooperative, creative beings.
我们对所谓的近亲物种，以及后来的古人类（比如尼安德特人）了解得越多，就越觉得他们和我们很像。
The more we learn about our sort of sister species and later, so called archaic humans like Neanderthals, the more like us they seem.
所以人类历史可能确实超过两百万年。
So the the human history is probably more than 2,000,000 years old.
而我们智人这个物种，看起来大概有三十万年的历史。
Homo sapiens, our species, looks to be more like 300,000 years old.
所以你看，当我们说“人类”的时候，其实比我们自然而然地以为的要更复杂、更不明确。
So yeah, when we say human, it's it's it's less, less easy and less transparent than we might automatically expect.
但我的印象是……
But my impression is that...
我在这方面完全是外行，所以请你告诉我真实情况。
And my impression is completely ill educated here, so tell me the truth.
很长时间里，人类的数量和其他一些动物物种相比，其实并不多。
There weren't that many humans, like, you know, by comparison to some other animal species for a long time.
这样理解对吗？
Is that accurate?
是的。
I mean, yes.
从根本上说，这个理解是对的。
In in fundamental terms, that's accurate.
当然，这很难说，因为我们……
And, of course, it's hard because, we we...
作为一个曾经花了不少时间研究罗马帝国人口数量的人——那可是像昨天一样近的事情——我们现在仍然对此有根本性的争论，大家观点不一。
As somebody who's who's, spent a little bit of time worrying about, you know, how many humans were there in the Roman Empire, which is like yesterday, we we still, like, debate about that really fundamentally, and people disagree about it.
如果回到更早、还没有人口普查记录的时期，那就越来越难确定了。
When you go back before there are census records and things, it gets harder and harder.
但遗传学家有办法估算繁殖种群的大小。
But geneticists have methods to try and estimate the size of a population that's reproducing.
这给了我们一些启示。
That gives us some insights.
当然，考古学上可以追踪人类定居点的数量，以及这能说明什么样的人口规模。
Of course, archaeologically, can sort of trace how many human settlements there are and what that says about the the likely population.
但我们估计，大家对于一万一千多年前更新世到全新世过渡期有多少人类存在争议，但可能大约有五百万到一千万的智人。
But, I mean, we estimate that, you know, people people debate about how many humans there are at the the Pleistocene Holocene transition, a little over eleven thousand years ago, but it's probably on the order of five to 10,000,000 Homo sapiens.
那个时候，只剩下我们了。
By that time, there's only us.
我们已经……
We've...
或者说尼安德特人已经消失了，
Or the Neanderthals have gone away,
不管是不是
whether or not
我们得负责任。
we're to blame.
但我们是唯一还在游戏里的人类，而且可能只有五百到一千万人。
But the, we're the only humans still in the game, and there's probably only five to 10,000,000 of us.
所以这比我最爱的俄克拉荷马州的人口多不了多少，却要分布在全球。
So, you know, that's barely more than the population of my beloved Oklahoma across the whole globe.
所以我们知道，直到一万年前，所有人类基本上都是采集狩猎者。
So we know that all humans until ten thousand years ago are fundamentally foragers.
他们靠打猎和采集为生。
They hunt and gather.
他们依赖野生食物来源，这也让他们的数量保持在低位。
So they're dependent on wild sources of food and that keeps their numbers low.
所以在过去五千到一万年之前，人类的数量一直都不多。
And so there aren't ever a huge number of of humans until the last five to ten thousand years.
你的书开头讲的大概就是大约一万年前，那些人类和巨型动物之间的互动。我不知道“常见”这个词是不是准确，但当时地球上确实有很多这样的巨型动物在活动。
And your book opens more or less with the interactions between some of those humans circa ten thousand years ago and the megafauna that were, I don't know if common is the right word, but certainly there were plenty of them bouncing around here on Earth.
那个……
The...
我确实是……
I mean, I I do open this...
嗯，其实我是从生命的起源讲起，试着把我们的进化放到生物多样性漫长历史的深远视角中。
Well, actually, I I go back to the origins of life and try and put sort of our evolution in the very deep perspective of the long history of biodiversity.
然后讲到更新世。
And then move forward to the Pleistocene.
人类在这个气候极度多变的冰河时期中崛起。
I mean, emerge in this highly variable ice age of a climate epoch.
我们很早就从非洲扩散出去，至少十万年前，人们就开始迁徙和探索了。
And we spread out of Africa fairly early, at least by a hundred thousand years, people are immigrating and exploring.
在更新世的最后阶段，我们不断扩散、繁衍，开拓新的环境。
And then over the the last phases of the Pleistocene, we spread and we multiply, we colonize new environments.
那时我们仍然都是狩猎采集者，人口也在增长。
We're all still hunter gatherers and our populations grow.
当人类走出非洲，走向世界时，他们进入的是一个陆地生物群系，也就是说在陆地上，生态系统由大型动物主导。
When humans move out, into the world, they are moving into a world where terrestrial biomes, so we're, you know, on land, the ecosystems are dominated by big animals.
这不仅仅是审美上的问题。
And that's not just sort of like an aesthetic point.
不是说，哇，真像野生动物园。
It's not like, cool, it's a safari.
这些是完整的系统。
These are systems.
它们是食物网，能量在其中流动。
They're food webs where there's energy flowing through them.
而它们结构和功能的关键在于，动物，主要是哺乳动物，已经长到了巨大的体型。
And critical to their structure and function is the fact that animals, mostly mammals, have attained enormous sizes.
我们很容易忘记这一点。
It's very easy for us to kind of forget that.
也许你曾在博物馆里见过猛犸象和乳齿象的标本。
I mean, probably have seen mammoths and mastodons at the museum.
但其实那真的是……
But it was really...
在某种程度上，那是他们的世界。
In a way, was their world.
他们……
They...
并不是这里一两种、那里一两种物种的问题。
It's not like one or two species here and there.
整个有生命的陆地环境都被大型哺乳动物主导，包括食草动物和追捕它们的捕食者。
The the whole landed environment where there's life is dominated by large mammals, both herbivores and the predators who who chase them.
所以我们的祖先走入了这个非常非常不同的……
And so our ancestors move out into this very, very different...
这对我们来说非常陌生。
It's it's very unfamiliar to us.
即使在世界上某些地方，比如非洲部分地区，仍然有相当数量的大型动物、巨型动物幸存下来，但你只能看到一点点那个世界的缩影……
Even in the parts of the world, like parts of Africa, where you do still have significant, number of surviving big animals, megafauna, you only get like a little glimpse really of what a world...
这真是一个完全不同的世界。
What a different world it is.
我们很容易忘记这一点，但更新世时期的生态系统确实是由大型动物主导的。
And it's easy for us to forget that, but the the Pleistocene is dominated by ecosystems where big animals rule.
而且真是……
And what a...
你刚才提到了这一点，但我从你的书里得到的其中一个重要启示就是，当一个物种灭绝、消失的时候，我不想说……
You sort of touched on it there, but one of the big things I got from your book, like the important take home lessons is when there is an extinction, when a species goes away, I don't wanna say...
我不想不公平，但并不是所有物种都是平等的。
I don't wanna be, unfair, but not all species are created equal.
你不应该光靠数物种的数量来衡量我们造成的影响。
You know, you shouldn't sort of think about the impact that we have by counting species.
比如说，那些巨型动物真的很关键，即使实际上消失的物种并不多。
Like, these megafauna, really were key even though there actually weren't that many species that, have gone away.
而且它……
And it...
而且我觉得重要的是，试着从几个不同的角度来理解这一点。
And I think it's important to, like, try and get...
从几个不同的角度来看待这个问题。
Come to grips with that from a few different perspectives.
因为从某种意义上说，你说的那个观点是……
Because in one sense, I think the the point you're making is...
这让我们反思我们如何衡量人类的影响。
It kinda makes us reflect about how we measure human impact.
灭绝是衡量人类影响的重要方式之一。
Extinction is one of the really important ways we can measure human impact.
而且我觉得，第六次大灭绝这个问题受到的关注，放大了这一点，这真是个有趣的想法。
And I think it's sort of been amplified by the the attention that's given to the question of the sixth extinction, which is a really interesting idea.
也许我们可以稍微聊聊这个。
Maybe we can we can talk a little bit about it.
但它确实在科学上和大众层面都抓住了人们的想象力，而且它把人类影响聚焦在以灭绝来衡量上。
But it sort of captures the the imagination scientifically, popularly, and it focuses on human impact measured in terms of extinctions.
但确实，不是所有灭绝对生态系统的影响都是一样的。
But it's it's absolutely the case that not all, extinctions have the same kind of effect on an ecosystem.
这倒不是说什么价值判断。
That's that's not like a value judgment.
只是观察某些生物在生态系统中扮演的角色而已。
It's just kind of an observation about the the role that certain organisms play in ecosystems.
而且我们确实往往低估了大型动物灭绝的那种系统性的、大规模的性质。
And we do tend to underestimate the sheer, systematic nature of the extinction of megafauna.
再说一遍，不是一两个物种，而是每个大陆上几十种称霸了数百万年的物种，在进化的一瞬间就消失了。
Again, it's not just one or two species, it's dozens of species in every continent that have dominated for millions of years that disappear in an evolutionary instant.
而这些是……
And these are...
所以，相对于哺乳动物总数，甚至地球上所有动物总数来说，这不算是一个巨大的物种数量。
So it's not a huge number of species relative to the total number of mammals or even total number of animals that exist.
实际上，就地球上的动物物种数量而言，这几乎可以忽略不计。
In fact, it's a rounding error in terms of the number of animal species on the planet.
但这影响极其深远，因为这些生物在生态系统中扮演着重要角色。
But it's of huge significance because of the roles that these organisms play in their ecosystems.
而且我们……
And we...
即便如此，由于我们影响的深度和广度，想要准确衡量这种影响仍然很难。
Even then, it's it's hard for us to kinda measure because of the the depth and breadth of our impact.
但我们可以说……
But, you know, we can say...
想想野牛在草原上的作用吧。
Think about the role that bison play in prairies.
它们不仅仅是一种生活在这片土地上的物种。
They're they're not just sort of like a species on the landscape.
它们是生态系统中不可或缺的核心部分。
They are the the integral cog in the the ecosystem.
它们为其他生物提供了栖息地、庇护所和食物。
They, provide habitat and, shelter and food.
它们会到处输送养分。
They move nutrients around.
这是大型动物扮演的最重要却最被低估的角色之一。
This is one of the most important and underrated sort of roles that big animals play.
它们会把限制生命存活的养分搬来搬去。
They they move nutrients that limit life around.
鲸鱼就是这样，它们吃很多食物，然后排泄出来。
And so that's true of whales that are, you know, eating lots of food and then pooping it out.
大象也是这样，它们在传播种子等方面极其重要；野牛在河谷等地吃营养丰富的草，然后把这些养分带到干旱贫瘠的草原上。
It's true of elephants that are massively important in things like moving around seeds, bison, eat nutrient rich grasses in sort of river valleys and so on, and then move those nutrients around the dry and nutrient starved prairie.
所以当你把大型动物移除，几乎会影响所有其他生物。
So when you take out big animals, it sort of affects everything else.
而我们确实几乎在地球上所有地方系统地清除了最大的动物。
And we systematically took out the biggest animals virtually everywhere on the planet.
跟我详细说说那个机制的具体情况吧。
Tell me more about the specifics of that mechanism.
就是单纯因为我们把它们猎杀光了，还是有更复杂的原因？
Is it simply a matter that we hunted them to death, or are there more complicated stories?
挺复杂的，而且有一个很大的……
It's complicated and there's there's a huge...
有一个争论已经持续了几百年。
I mean, there's a debate that's been going on for hundreds of years.
我……
I mean, I I...
在我的书里，我引用了地质学之父查尔斯·莱尔的话，对。
In my book, I quote the sort of the father of geology, Charles Lyle Mhmm.
他来过美国，实际上来过好几次。
Who comes to America, actually visits America a couple of times.
第二次来的时候，他去了乔治亚州的一个地方，那里在挖运河，挖出了一大片更新世晚期的动物化石，有巨大的野牛和猛犸象。
And on a second tour, he visits this place in Georgia where they'd been digging a canal, and they'd turned up this huge fossil bed of late Pleistocene animals, giant bison and mammoths.
那时候是十九世纪三十年代，他就已经觉得特别不可思议，这么多巨型动物竟然生活在那么近的年代。
And even then, like, he's he's, you know, visiting in the eighteen thirties and he's talking about how, you know, remarkable it is that so many enormous animals lived so recently.
作为地质学家，他真的意识到了这有多近。
And he really, as a geologist, grasped how how recent this was.
他说，我们真的很想知道，但说不准，到底是气候变化还是人类捕猎导致的？
And, he says, we we really wonder, but can't say, was this climate change or human hunting?
我们一直在……
We've been...
人们争论这个问题已经很久了。
People have been arguing about it
哇。
Wow.
差不多两百年了。
For almost two hundred years.
而且至今仍然是……
And it's still...
有时候这个争论还挺激烈尖锐的。
Sometimes it's it's a quite bitter and sharp debate.
其实这么说可能有点老套，但很明显两者都有。
And, you know, not to to be sort of boring about it, but it is obviously it's some of both.
每个物种在环境变化时都会面临挑战，植被带会移动，食物来源也会改变。
I mean, every organism faces environmental challenges when the environment changes, vegetation bands shift, the food source shifts.
所以气候变化肯定是故事的一部分。
So climate change is is inevitably part of the story.
但在更新世晚期，新出现的是依赖狩猎为生的人类群体不断扩张，而他们是极其特殊的捕食者。
But the thing that is new in the late Pleistocene is the spread of of bands of humans who rely on hunting for food and who are very, very weird predators.
从自然角度来看，人类是很奇怪的捕食者，因为首先我们是群体捕食者，虽然我们不是唯一这么做的。
Humans are very strange predators from a natural perspective, because one, we're social predators, which we're not the only ones.
狼是最明显的类比，而且这个类比很有意思。
Wolves are the the most obvious parallel, and it's kind of an interesting parallel.
这点我待会儿再讲。
I'll come back to it.
但狼是群体捕食者。
But, you know, wolves are social predators.
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这样它们就能猎杀大型动物了。
And what this lets them do is it lets them kill big animals.
通常，独居的捕食者只会捕杀幼崽或比自己小的物种。
Usually, solitary predators kill juveniles or species that are smaller than they are.
狼就是个好例子，一群狼能对付一头驼鹿，那才是一场真正势均力敌的较量。
And, you know, wolves are a good example because a pack of wolves can take on a moose, and that's always a pretty fair fight.
驼鹿通常会赢。
The moose usually win.
但狼已经挺特别的了，因为它们会合作，所以关键是群体的规模，去捕猎大型猎物。
And, but wolves are kinda weird already because they cooperate, and so it's sort of the the size of the group that is predating on big, prey.
人类也能做到，而且我们做得非常出色。
Humans do that, and we do it unbelievably well.
我们就是最有效率的群居捕食者，
We're just the most effective social predators that...
前所未有的。
That's ever existed.
而且因为我们会制造工具，我们克服了一些天生的不足，制造出非常擅长远程杀伤的武器，比如投掷武器、长矛，特别是配上投矛器（atlatl），后来还有弓箭。
And then because we're toolmakers, we overcome some of our natural deficiencies and build weapons that are very good, at killing at a distance, projectile weapons, spears, especially with spear throwers, ottolotls, and then eventually bow and arrow.
所以我们是非常厉害的协作型捕食者，拥有能杀死大型动物的工具。
And so we're extremely capable, cooperative predators who have, tools to kill big animals.
而很多这些灭绝的动物并不习惯被猎杀，尤其是被当作成年个体来猎杀。
And a lot of these animals that go extinct are not used to being hunted, and they're certainly not used to being hunted as adults.
没有谁会去猎杀成年的猛犸象。
And, you know, nothing nothing hunts an adult mammoth.
但我们却这么做了，而它们不习惯。
And and then we do, and, they're not used to it.
大型动物往往繁殖很慢。
Big animals tend to reproduce very slowly.
它们的种群数量通常也较少。
They tend to have smaller populations.
所以它们对这种威胁相当脆弱……
And so they're kind of vulnerable to this...
这种冲击，就体现在人类狩猎的引入上。
The shock that is is represented by the introduction of human hunting.
所以我们是社交性、会制造工具的捕食者。
So we're social tool making predators.
而且我们还掌控了火。
And then, you know, we we also control fire.
我觉得这一点有点被低估了，因为从考古学上很难考证，但人类确实在狩猎中使用了火。
I suspect this is kind of underrated because it's archaeologically very hard to get at, but humans use fire, in in hunting.
我们知道今天还在这么做。
We know that we do this today.
在近几个世纪，我们就用火把大型动物赶进陷阱、沼泽、峡谷，或者把它们赶下悬崖。
We do this, in in more recent centuries using fire to drive big animals, into traps or into bogs or into ravines or over cliffs.
这让我们能合作猎杀非常大的动物，还能一次捕杀一大批，同时杀死很多个体。
And it lets us, cooperate to hunt really big animals and to kill en masse, to kill large numbers of of individuals simultaneously.
如果这些还不够，我们大约在两万年前还做了一件非常奇怪的事。
And then if all that wasn't enough, we do something really weird, maybe twenty thousand years ago ish.
我们跟地球上第二大成功的猎手——灰狼，结成了共生伙伴关系，然后驯化了狗。
We form a symbiotic partnership with the second most successful hunter on the planet, the gray wolf, and we domesticate dogs.
这就像是纽约扬基队和波士顿红袜队……
And, this is, you know, like the New York Yankees and Boston Reds...
现在应该说是洛杉矶道奇队了，我是红袜队的球迷。
I should say Los Angeles Dodgers now, I'm a Red Sox fan.
但这就好比扬基队和道奇队说，咱们联手吧，组成一支超级球队。
But it'd be like if the Yankees and Dodgers were like, Let's team up and just form one super team.
这很难说清楚，因为考古学并不能直接证明狗到底有多重要。
And it's very hard to say because again, the archeology doesn't provide direct evidence exactly how important dogs were.
但我觉得这真的很了不起……
But I think it's an amazing...
单从进化的角度来看，这是一个奇怪、极其反常、几乎不可能发生的伙伴关系。
Just from an evolutionary perspective, it's a strange, extremely odd, very unlikely partnership.
跟自己最大的竞争对手——一个天生的杀手——结成伙伴，真是件怪事。
I mean, a weird thing to partner with your biggest rival, who is a natural born killer.
狼并不是最明显的朋友，但它们成了我们最好的朋友，真的是人类最好的朋友。
Wolves are not the most obvious friends, but they become our best friends, literally, you know, man's best friend.
而这似乎至少是早期人类狩猎能力的一部分。
And that seems to sort of be a part at least of the the sort of hunting prowess of early humans.
这就好比凯文·杜兰特加入勇士队。
It's Kevin Durant to the warriors.
哦，你非得提这个。
Oh, you had to do that.
拜托。
Come on.
太伤人了。
That hurts.
我们永远不会忘记，也不会原谅。
We will never forget or forget.
那个。
That.
我知道。
I know.
俄克拉荷马城的球迷们。
The Oklahoma City fans.
没关系。
That's okay.
你你你最终也没事。
You you you turned out okay in the long run.
我在那儿工作过。
I worked there.
我喜欢这一点，因为我觉得当人们想到人类对生物圈的影响等等时，他们会想到工业革命中烧煤的机器之类的。
I love that point because I think that when people think about humanity's effect on the biosphere, etcetera, they think of machines in the industrial revolution burning coal and and what have you.
但仅仅是我们社交合作的能力，早在早期就给了我们远超肌肉能力的杠杆。
But just our ability to socially cooperate, gave us this leverage far beyond our muscular ability early on.
确实如此。
It did.
而且，火本身就已经是一种强大到几乎难以置信的工具，因为我们可以用火来改变整片土地。
And, fire is fire is already, you know, an almost unbelievably powerful tool because we can alter entire landscapes with fire.
作为历史学家，我喜欢谈论火，因为它太奇特了。
I love talking about fire as a historian because it's so weird.
人们都习以为常了。
People take it for granted.
地球是我们所知的太阳系中唯一有火的行星。
Earth is the only planet in our solar system that we know of that has fire.
火真的很奇怪。
Fire is really weird.
你必须要有可燃气体和可以作为燃料的材料。
You have to have a combustible gas and material that you can use as fuel.
这似乎需要像生命或植物这样的东西，它们能把氧气释放到空气中。
That seems to require something like life or something like plants even that put oxygen in the air.
而我们是唯一曾经控制过火的物种。
And we're the only species that's ever controlled fire.
这被称为人类独有的垄断，它已经让我们对自然有了更多的掌控力。
It's been called a species monopoly for humans, and it already gives us leverage over nature.
而真正意义上的下一个分水岭是驯化。
And then the the watershed after that really is domestication.
不仅仅是狼变成了狗，我们还与那些变成山羊的羱羊、变成绵羊的摩弗伦羊、变成牛的野牛、变成猪的野猪，形成了奇特的跨物种联盟。
So it's not just wolves becoming dogs, but then we enter into this strange multispecies alliance with ibexes that become goats, mooflon become sheep, aurochs become cattle, boar become pigs.
这非常奇怪……
It's a very strange...
从进化的角度看，这是一种非常奇特的共生关系，它让我们……
From an evolutionary perspective, it's a very weird symbiosis that gives us...
这种关系进一步放大了我们的影响力，让我们能够改造整个地貌。
That amplifies our our leverage further and further and lets us transform landscapes.
这也是为什么人类对环境的影响会随着时间不断加剧，而且……
It's the reason why human impact grows over time and...
但在很长一段时间里，情况一直如此。
But for a very long time.
所以，没错，工业革命是一个重大突破，但如果我们没有更深入的视角，就会错过我们影响的重要部分。
And so, yes, the industrial revolution is a is a breakthrough, but we'll miss, an important part of our impact if we don't have that deeper perspective.
而且这种视角对周围的世界很重要。
And that perspective matters for for the world around us.
但冰河时代末期的大型动物灭绝，在进化时间尺度上仍然是同时代的。
But the, you know, the megafaunal extinction at the end of the ice age in evolutionary time is still contemporaneous.
没错。
Sure.
在进化时间尺度上，这确实是不可分割的。
And then that's literally just just inseparable in evolutionary time.
而我们...
And and the we...
世界在某些方面仍然在对此作出反应。
World, you know, is still responding to that in some ways.
然后我们介入这个世界，但我们的介入速度越来越快。
And then we intervene in that world, but we intervene ever faster and faster.
你知道你衣柜里那些你反复穿的衣服吗？
You know those clothes in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat?
那件百搭的毛衣、那条完美的裤子，或者你总是第一个伸手去拿的T恤？
The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or the tee you somehow always reach for first?
这些就是让穿衣变得轻松的单品，而这正是Quince最擅长的。
Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy and that's what Quince does best.
Quince专注于高品质的基础款服饰，采用优质材料——100%蒙古羊绒、有机棉和美利奴羊毛。
Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool.
当气温开始下降时，Quince让您轻松在这些基础款上叠穿，推出高级羽绒服和经典羊毛外套。
And when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those staples with premium down jackets and classic wool outerwear.
这些多层次的单品旨在让您整个季节都保持温暖舒适。
Versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long.
我有几件Quince的衬衫，它们已经成为我衣柜里常穿的单品。
I have a couple of Quince shirts that have become regular go tos in my wardrobe.
它们看起来好看，手感也高档，而且几乎能搭配所有衣服。
They look good and feel high quality while going with just about everything.
而且Quince的价格比同类品牌便宜百分之五十到八十。
And everything at Quince is priced fifty-eighty percent less than similar brands.
他们直接与道德工厂合作，省去了中间商，所以你支付的是品质，而不是品牌溢价。
They work directly with ethical factories and they cut out the middleman, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup.
所以去Quince找到你秋季的最爱吧。
So find your next fall favorites at Quince.
下载Quince应用，获取应用专属优惠，或者访问quince.com。
Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.
享受免费送货和365天退货服务。
Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns.
现在在加拿大和英国也可以买到。
Now available in Canada and The UK too.
当Quince问你是从哪里听说的，告诉他们你是在Mindscape播客上听到的。
And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Mindscape Podcast.
这是支持节目的好方法。
It's a great way to support the show.
我们知不知道人类是什么时候开始用火的？
Do we know when human beings started using fire?
不知道。
No.
人类学家一直在争论这个问题，难点还是在于考古证据，因为……
Anthropologists debate it, and the challenge, again, is archaeological because the...
很难说一堆灰烬……
You know, it's hard to say if an ash pile...
首先，这些灰烬本身就很难找到。
First first of all, they're hard to find.
然后，也很难判断这到底是人为控制火，还是只是闪电引起的火灾。
And then it's hard to say whether this represents controlled fire or is this, like, just, you know, lightning, that started a fire.
所以研究直立人的人类学家们一直在争论这个问题。
And so it's it's debated by by anthropologists who who study Homo erectus.
我觉得共识大概是大约一百万到五十万年前，可能更接近一百万年。
I mean, I think the consensus is going to be sometime around a million to 500,000 years ago, maybe closer to a million.
这也涉及到人类进化的问题，因为烹饪显然离不开火，而烹饪的能力似乎又改变了我们的生理结构。
It gets into questions too about human evolution, because the ability to cook obviously depends on fire, and then the ability to cook seems to change our physiology.
我们有……
We have...
它改变了我们的生理结构。
You know, it changes our physiology.
我们的消化系统非常弱。
We have very weak, digestive systems.
我们的嘴巴相当可怜。
Our mouths are pretty pathetic.
对于一个捕食者来说，对于一个……
I mean, for a predator, for a
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
食肉动物来说，什么……
Carnivore, you know, what...
我们，我们……
We we...
可怜的，可怜的牙齿装备。
Pathetic, pathetic dental equipment.
所以关于火的作用，有争议。
And so there's there's debate about what's the role of fire.
这告诉我们什么？
What does that tell us?
因为我们可以更容易地从化石记录中追踪人类进化中颅骨和身体形状的变化，而这让我们推断出也许火已经存在，但这是间接证据。
Because we can actually follow easier in the fossil record human evolution changes to the, you know, cranium and the shape of the body, and, that lets us infer sort of that maybe fire was around, but it's indirect evidence.
所以，这是一个非常好的问题。
So, it's it's it's a very good question.
这是一个悬而未决的问题。
It's an open question.
有争议。
It's debated.
大概是一百万年左右，上下差个几十万年。
You know, it's probably something like a million years or so, give or take a few 100,000.
好的。
Okay.
不错。
Good.
那我们回到驯化这个话题……
So let's let's go back to the domestic...
驯化，因为我觉得这块还没聊完。
Domestication because I don't think that we're done there.
我从你的书里学了一个新词。
I learned a new word from your book.
Commenal?
Commensel?
Commenal?
Commensel?
共栖。
Commensel.
是的。
Yes.
共栖。
Commensel.
当你还没有完全驯化的时候，你只是和当地物种共享一个食物生态系统，这可能为以后更大的发展埋下伏笔。
When you haven't quite domesticated, you're just like sharing a food ecosystem with the local species, and that might lead to bigger things down the road.
我认为这是其中一个……
I think it's one of the...
嗯，首先，共栖物种是生态学中使用的术语，指的是……
Well, first of all, a commensal species is a term that is used in ecology to mean a species that...
它的词源是共享一张桌子。
The the etymology is sharing a table.
在拉丁语中，commensal就是这个意思。
That's what commensal means in in Latin.
从生态学上讲，它指的不是真正的共生生物，也不是真正的寄生虫。
And it means ecologically a species that isn't quite a symbiont and isn't quite a parasite.
它介于两者之间。
It's somewhere in between.
它利用了另一种生物体的生态效应。
And it's taking advantage of the ecological effects of another organism.
就像搭了另一种生物体的顺风车。
It's sort of writing the tails of another organism.
这个术语比较宽泛，因为它是个生态学术语，得涵盖多种不同的关系。
And it's a pretty loose term because it's an ecological term that's kind of got to capture a number of different relationships.
但它非常有用，因为说起来很容易……
But it's extremely useful because, you know, it's easy to say...
好吧，这确实有点复杂，但可以说我们驯化了这些动物，它们和我们之间是一种有点奇怪的共生关系。
Well, it's just pretty complicated, but it's possible to say we domesticated these animals, and they're sort of in this symbiotic weird but symbiotic relationship with us.
比如牛，我们喂养它们，保护它们，最后吃掉它们。
You know, cattle, we feed them, we protect them, and then we eat them.
那就是我们的家养动物。
That's our domesticate.
但如果我们不认识到很多动物并不是家养动物，但它们的进化和生态历史却与我们的成功密不可分，那我们真的会低估我们的影响。
But we would really underestimate our impact if we don't recognize that a lot of animals are not domesticates, but their evolutionary and ecological history is inseparable from our success.
它们是靠我们的成功沾光的。
They ride our coattails.
这适用于范围极其广泛的生物，真的非常惊人。
And this is true of a really shocking range of organisms.
其中一个我很喜欢思考的例子就是家蝇。
And one that that I love thinking about is the the housefly.
从某种程度上说，它的故事几乎就是人类故事的缩影，就是那种常见的家蝇，学名家蝇。
In some ways, its story sort of captures the the human story, Musca domestica, the the common housefly.
地球上蝇的种类有成千上万种，我都忘了具体多少，但家蝇在所有蝇类中表现非常出彩。
Of the, I forget how many thousands species of flies on Earth, flies do very well.
苍蝇是一个很成功的演化支系。
Flies are a very successful lineage.
它们简直太成功了。
Are crushing it.
而且你知道，这个群体非常非常多样化，种类成千上万。
And there are thousands of you know, it's a very, very diverse group.
在这个家族的所有后代里，哪一个才是进化唯一看重的标准——基因复制——上的最成功者呢？
And which one of all the offspring of this lineage, which one is the most successful and the only metric that evolution cares about your genetic replication?
就是家蝇，学名 Musca domestica。
It is the housefly, the Musca domestica.
家蝇到底有什么特别之处？
What is it about the housefly?
嗯，一万年前，从我们能了解到的历史来看，苍蝇的历史记载其实挺零散的，但我们还是能说一些事情。
Well, you know, ten thousand years ago, as from what we can tell in the history of the fly is is patchy, but we can say some things.
它当时没什么特别的。
It's nothing.
它只是成千上万种无名蝇类中的一员，每天按自己的方式生活。
It's just a little another member of one of thousands of, you know, nameless fly species, and it does its thing.
它在外面世界里为了碳水化合物而拼搏。
It fights for carbohydrates out there in the world.
它把卵产在粪便里。
It lays its eggs in dung.
这似乎是它的生存策略：产很多卵，找到一些温暖、腐烂的物质。
This seems to be sort of its its life strategy is lay lots of eggs, find some some warm, putrefying material.
可以是尸体，但地上也有很多粪便。
It can be dead body, but there's lots of poop on the ground.
它们找这些腐烂物质的能力特别强。
And they are incredible at finding it.
它们找这些的能力特别强。
They're incredible at finding it.
它们在外面挣扎，和所有其他苍蝇一样，进行着同样的进化竞赛。
And they're out there struggling, fighting the same evolutionary game as every other fly.
然后我们其实并不清楚它确切是哪里来的，它是一种旧大陆的物种。
And then we don't actually know exactly where it's an old world species.
也许它来自埃及，也许来自南亚或西亚。
Maybe it's, you know, from Egypt, maybe it's from South Asia or West Asia.
但在很早的时候，它就开始玩一种稍微不同的游戏，那就是开始跟着我们走。
But somewhere very early on, it starts playing a slightly different game in that it starts following us around.
它开始在我们的栖息地里繁殖。
It starts replicating in our habitats.
它其实是凭运气预先适应了我们创造的环境，而且表现得非常好。
It's sort of by dumb luck pre adapted to be very good at the kinds of environments that we create.
特别是在我们驯化其他动物之后，周围有很多牛、山羊和绵羊。
Particularly after we domesticate other animals, we've got lots of cattle and goats and sheep around.
地上到处都是粪便。
There's lots of poop on the ground.
我们把这些粪便堆起来。
We pile it up.
实际上，我们是有意把它们堆起来用作肥料的。
In fact, we pile it up on purpose to use it as fertilizer.
这对它们来说简直就是大丰收。
And this is just like a bonanza for them.
所以它们凭着运气好，天生就适合跟我们生活在一起。
And so they, you know, by dumb luck are pre adapted to live well with us.
然后它们吃我们的食物，吃我们随手留下的糖，还有任何碳水化合物。
And then they eat our food, they eat any sugar we leaving around, any carbohydrate.
它们不断繁衍，我们走到哪儿它们就跟到哪儿。
And they take off and they go everywhere we go.
它们不是家养动物。
They're not a domesticated animal.
它们也不算真正的寄生虫，虽然它们能传播疾病，还特别烦人。
They're not exactly a parasite, although they can carry diseases and they're super annoying.
我们很容易低估它们在100到150年前有多常见，那时候人们发动了一场大规模运动来消灭家蝇。
It's incredibly easy for us to underestimate how common they were until, you know, a hundred, hundred fifty years ago when there's just a massive campaign to to conquer the the house fly.
尽管经过了大量努力，它们现在依然极其成功和普遍。
They're still incredibly successful and prevalent, but that's after a lot of efforts to get rid of them.
而且它们的故事，想想对全球生物多样性的影响。
And their story, you know, think about the effects on global biodiversity.
有一种苍蝇是地球上数量最多的苍蝇，而这正是因为我们的历史。
There's one fly that is the, you know, the most numerically successful fly on the planet, and it's because of our history.
这种模式可以类推到各种体型的动物，比如你家院子里的灰松鼠，它们在这个世界上活得很好，因为很适应郊区生活。
And you can replicate that and think of all kinds of animals across all size ranges, you know, from the the squirrel in your yard, the eastern squirrel, gray squirrel is doing really well in this world because it's very good at living in suburban
松鼠。
squirrels.
我们……
We are...
我们是在帮它们走这条路。
We're helping along that path.
这些……
These these...
它们就是共生动物。
They are they are commensals.
它们在吃我们餐桌上的东西，或者至少在我们后院混饭吃。
They're eating at our table, or in our backyard anyway.
几乎所有你能想到的生物类别，都有某个物种真的利用了人类的成功。
And it it almost every sort of taxon you can imagine somewhere, there's there's a species that has really taken advantage of human success.
所以，在很多无意之中，我们正在塑造生物多样性。
And so in these ways that are kind of unintentional, we're shaping biodiversity.
嗯，我觉得这……
Well, I think this is...
我们不需要按顺序来。
We don't need to go in order.
那我们直接跳到其中一个大的……
So let's, like, skip ahead to one of the big...
另一个重要的教训。
One of the other big lessons here.
当像人类这样的物种变得如此强势，整个系统就变得简单化了。
When one species like humanity is become so dominant, the overall system kind of simplifies.
就像...
There's like...
这个世界并不是有无数个不同的生态位。
It's not a world where there's a billion different niches.
某种程度上，你与主导物种的互动方式决定了你的生存状况。
It's sort of how well you interact with the dominant one that defines how well you do to a certain extent.
也许这比单纯数物种数量之类的更能帮助思考问题，但环境的整体简化确实是个问题。
And maybe that's, you know, again, a better way of thinking about the problem than just counting the number of species or something like that, but the the overall simplification of the environment is an issue.
我想说的是，我们可以争论人类是否可能或也许会引发第六次大灭绝。
And and I like to say that, you know, we can argue about whether or not humans could or or might trigger the sixth extinction.
那确实很可怕。
And that would be really scary.
但对我来说，更可怕的是想到生命史上第一次大规模同质化。
But to me it's even scarier to think about the first great homogenization, in the history of life.
在六亿年的动物进化史中，只要你说某件事从未发生过，你就应该警惕，然后问：那是什么？
You know, anytime you say in six hundred million years of animal evolution, something has never happened, you ought to pay attention and say what?
因为所有事情都在反复发生，但从来没有一个物种像我们这样获得全球性的生态主导地位，也没有一个物种能像我们这样在全世界创造出极其单一的生态系统。
Because everything happens over and over, but never before has one species acquired global ecological dominance to the extent that we have and to the extent that one species is capable of creating extremely homogenous ecosystems worldwide.
这包括一些显而易见的方式，比如我们的粮食生产系统。
And this includes ways that are obvious, like our food production system.
所以有数十亿头牛。
And so there are billions of cattle.
有数十亿头猪。
There are billions of pigs.
还有一些数据，相信我，我试过追根究底，而且我对联合国粮农组织的估算有些担心，但就采用粮农组织的估算来看。
There's something and trust me, I've I've tried to run to ground and and I'm worried about the FAO estimates, but just taking the FAO estimates.
地球上大约有320亿只鸡。
There's something like 32,000,000,000 chickens on Earth.
所以它们以10倍的数量成为地球上最众多的鸟类。
So it is the most numerous bird on the planet by a factor of 10.
它们是占主导地位的鸟类，对。
You know, it's it's the dominant bird Yeah.
在地球上。
On on planet Earth.
而且在几百万几百万年以后，如果有某个未来的家伙，也许是AI古生物学家，翻看地球历史的岩层，发现我们的时代，他们会说，天哪，这种灵长类和肉鸡的奇怪共生关系竟然统治了地球。
And in millions and millions of years when some future, whatever, maybe AI, paleontologist is looking through the the strata of Earth history and they hit our lair, they're gonna say, oh my gosh, this weird symbiosis of a of a primate along with the broiler chickens
鸡真多啊。
So many chickens.
统治了地球。
Took over the planet.
鸡太多了。
There's so many chickens.
简直不可思议。
It's incredible.
而且想想那成千上万种被记录在案的鸟类，还有很多我们完全不知道的鸟类，都已经灭绝了。
And you think of the thousands and thousands of species cataloged and really unknown of birds that have gone extinct.
多样性在下降，一方面是因为物种灭绝，另一方面是因为曾经常见的物种变得极度稀少。
Diversity declines both through extinction and through once common species becoming extremely rare.
而人类以及他们所吃的食物、我们食用的动物，变得极其极其普遍。
And humans and the the food that they eat, the animals that we eat, become extremely, extremely common.
所以这是一种显而易见且有意的变化方式。
And so that's a kind of obvious and intentional way.
但还有一些可能不那么明显的方式，因为人类是……
But then there are maybe less obvious ways because humans are...
我们热爱互联互通。
We love connectivity.
我们是社会性动物。
We're social animals.
我们喜欢贸易、旅行和迁徙，而且从最初就是这样。
We like to trade and travel and migrate and we've been doing so from the very beginning.
很多时候，无论有意还是无意，这都推动了生物圈的均质化。
And very often intentionally and unintentionally this drives homogeneity in the biosphere.
而最大的受害者就是岛屿生物多样性。
And the big, victim has been island biodiversity.
岛屿是多样性的重要摇篮。
Islands are an important kind of cradle of diversity.
它们创造了小小的环境，让进化可以尝试不同的路径。
They create little pockets where evolution can test out different pathways.
生态学家提出了一个很有力的比喻，说人类创造了一个新的彭格大陆，那是地质历史上存在过的超级大陆。
Ecologists created, I think, a powerful metaphor that humans have created a new Pangaea, supercontinent that that existed in the geological past.
从某种程度上说，我们几乎把整个地球变成了一个超级大陆，这有很多很多好处，但我们也应该记住这对生物多样性的意外后果，而随着人类的扩张，岛屿生物多样性可能承受了最大的损失。
In a way, we've sort of made the the entire Earth one supercontinent, which has many, many good advantages, but also we should remember what are the unintended consequences for for biodiversity, and island biodiversity has taken probably the biggest toll, as humans have spread.
嗯...
Well...
在驯化的领域，我们谈到了动物，但植物甚至真菌也是。
And in the realm of domestication, we sort of talked about animals, but plants and even fungi.
这些物种的平衡都被人类兴趣的力量极大地影响了。
Like, these are things that the species balance have been wildly affected by the forces of human interest.
这本书是关于动物的。
And this book is about animals.
我写的是……
I wrote...
这本书之前写了一本关于人类和微生物的全球史。
The book before this was a kind of global history of humans and microbes.
主要是关于病原微生物的。
It's really about pathogenic microbes.
算是一部传染病的大历史。
It's a big history of infectious disease.
所以我跟普林斯顿合作写了一本关于微生物的书。
So I wrote a book with Princeton on microbes.
现在这本关于动物的书已经出版了，或者马上就要出了。
I've now published this one or it's it's about to come out on animals.
而且这将是三部曲的第三部分，讲的是人类。所以这本书里我没讲植物。
And there is a there is a third piece of of what will be a trilogy on humans So and I leave plants out of this book.
关于那本书会是什么样，我有很多想法。
I have, I have a lot of ideas about what that what that book will look like.
这部分绝对是故事中不可或缺的一部分。
It's it's absolutely integral to the story.
而且，当然，一切都是相互关联的。
And, of course, it's all connected.
人类对动物多样性造成负面影响的最重要方式，可能就是对土地利用的改变，也就是砍伐森林、湿地消失（通常是由于筑坝或防洪），以及把野生草原变成耕地或播种的农田。
I mean, Probably the single most important way in which humans have negatively impacted animal biodiversity is through land use change, which means deforestation, the loss of wetlands, usually because of damming or flood control, and the transition from wild prairie to cultivated or sown agriculture.
所以，植物就意味着我们在替换掉本地的植物。
And so plant, that means that we're swapping out the plants.
我们换成了能种小麦的田地。
We're swapping out for fields where we can plant wheat.
我们把湿地变成旱地或适合种庄稼的稳定土地。
We're swapping out wetlands for dry land or or, you know, stable land where we can plant crops.
也就是说把野生草原变成人工草地。
And it means getting rid of wild grasslands for cultivated grasslands.
但这就是第三卷的内容了。
But that's that's the third volume.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
我们会留意这个的。
We're gonna we're gonna look out for that.
但是，再说一遍，要强调一下，这远在工业革命之前。
But, again, just to drive home, this is long before the industrial revolution.
这可不是什么现代技术的问题。
This is not a sort of modern technology thing.
这只是人类发明了农业，并因此极大地改变了我们的生态系统。
This is just humans inventing agriculture and dramatically changing our ecosystem thereby.
而且，我想说，以防万一需要说明，这个故事情节并不是说人类就是邪恶或坏的。
And and I mean, in case it in case it needs saying, you know, it's not, the the storyline isn't just humans are evil or bad.
我觉得我们两者兼有。
I think there are ways in which we're for both.
我有些最喜欢的人就是人类。
Some of my favorite people are humans.
我也有很多。
Many many of mine.
但是……
But the...
但我们得正视这件事。
You know, but we need to reckon with it.
而且我觉得，意识到人类在几千年里一直在以非常深刻的方式改变着地球的面貌，这给了我们真正的视角。
And and I think it it gives us true perspective to realize that humans have been altering the face of the planet in very profound ways for thousands and thousands of years.
然后我们可以用这个视角来决定我们想怎么应对。
Then we can take that perspective and figure out what we want to do with it.
但你必须从现实和真的事实开始。
But you have to start reality and true facts.
现实是，我们作为猎人的能力，以及我们与其他驯化动植物形成的伙伴关系，已经给了我们巨大的驾驭自然的杠杆，后来工业化和现代科技——包括化学等等——只是把这个杠杆进一步放大了。
The reality is that already our abilities as hunters, our partnership with other domesticated plants and animals gave us tremendous leverage over nature that's only then been amplified by industrialization and sort of modern technologies, including things like chemistry and so on.
好，那我们慢慢聊到现代吧。
Well, yeah, let's sort of creep up on, the modern age.
我想，城市的发明是不是我们要考虑的下一大阶段转变？
I guess, is is the invention of cities, the next big phase transition that we have to think about?
城市嘛，有点像……
I mean, cities cities are kind of...
我想强调的是，城市和农业是两回事。
I try to emphasize that cities are distinct from agriculture.
农业大概在一万年前开始，然后慢慢扩散。
And so, you know, agriculture sort of starts roughly ten thousand years ago and spreads slowly.
但要过很久，人类数量才够多，技术也才成熟到能支撑城市的出现。
But it's a long time before you have enough humans and you have all the sort of technologies that you need to have cities.
城市通常伴随一套不同的技术体系。
Cities usually you know, go with a different technological package.
虽然有各种变化，但经常会有冶金术，比如青铜器。
There's variability, but you often have metallurgy like bronze.
通常会有文字，而且有时候是城市发明了文字。
You usually have writing, and sometimes it's cities that that invent writing.
但我觉得，文字算是人类历史上最重要的两三种技术之一。
But writing is, I mean, I would I would say writing is one of the two or three most important technologies that humans ever invent.
我们独立发明了四次文字，它可以说是城市生活或文明的核心技术。
We invent it four times independently, and it's sort of a core technology of city life or civilization.
你需要它来协调、治理、贸易。
You need it to coordinate, to govern, to trade.
所以文字、冶金，还有驯化新的交通工具，比如马。
And so, you know, writing metallurgy, the domestication of new transport animals like horses.
没有马，你也能有城市、大国家和帝国，但有马会方便很多。
You don't have to have horses to have cities and big states and empires, but it helps, quite a lot.
这些技术大约在五千到六千年前一起出现。
And this package comes together 5,000 to six thousand years ago.
然后你开始看到城市出现。
And then you start to get cities.
所以城市和农业是非常不同的。
So cities are very distinct from agriculture.
这是另一套技术体系。
It's a different technological package.
这是另一种社会组织形式，而且它们强大得多。
It's a different social organization, and they're much, much more powerful.
它们有点……
They they sort of...
是的，
Yes.
它们是人类控制自然能力的一个质变。
They're a phase transition in human capacity to control nature.
它们让我们能做到的事情，不仅仅是早期农民的那种逐步提升。
They let us do things, that are not just sort of a kind of incremental increase over sort of the early farmers.
它们确实是一场变革。
They're really, really a a transformation.
好的。
Okay.
我不能就这么放过你说我们独立发明了四次文字这句话。
I can't let, the statement that we invented writing four times independently just go unremarked.
比如，是哪四次？
Like, what what four times were those?
是谁做的？
Who did that?
让我想想。
Let's see.
好。
Okay.
一次是南亚文字。
One is the South Asian script.
一次是在近东，像楔形文字，后来演变成了字母表。
One is in the the, you know, Near East, like, cuneiform, and then eventually becomes like the alphabet.
让我想想。
Let's see.
一个是东亚的，有点像中文文字的前身。
One is East Asia, sort of the ancestor of of what becomes Chinese scripts.
然后还有一个是在新大陆，我想。
And then one is in the new world, I think.
有道理。
Makes sense.
象形文字。
Hieroglyphics.
挺好。
Pretty good.
我觉得我没说错。
I think I got that right.
别这样。
Come on.
我们这次没有讲义，肖恩。
I haven't We're not gonna have lecture notes for this, Sean.
我们来做播客。
We come on the podcast.
你得准备好。
You gotta be ready.
比如，要知道，我们会问各种问题。
Like, know, we're gonna ask all questions.
我得准备好。
I gotta be ready.
有道理。
Fair.
确实有道理。
It's fair.
是我提起这个话题的。
I I I brought it up.
但我觉得，目前的主流看法是，它独立出现了四次，我觉得这真的很酷。
But but, but I think that's the the current thinking is that it emerges four times independently, which I think is really cool.
这其实是我认为值得深入思考的一点，因为这是非常疯狂的技术。
I mean, that that's actually, I think, one of these points that's, like, deep once you start to think about it because this is crazy technology.
语言本来就是我们的超能力。
Language is already our superpower.
你知道，这是人类进化中的重大转折，就是符号语言和累积性文化进化。
It's what you know, that's the great evolutionary transition of humanity, symbolic language and cumulative cultural evolution.
而文字就像是打了类固醇的累积性文化进化。
And then writing is like cumulative cultural evolution on steroids.
它能让你跨越时间传递和储存信息。
Lets you transmit and store information across time.
而它独立出现四次这个事实，似乎说明它并不是极其偶然的。
And it doesn't seem to have been, you know, I mean, would say that the lesson of the fact that it emerges four times independently says that it's not extremely contingent.
它是一次又一次地发生。
Like it was, you know, it keeps happening over and over.
人类想要存储信息，而且他们总会找到办法去做到。
Humans want to store information, and they're gonna find ways to do it.
这有点像……
And it was sort of...
这是趋同进化。
It's convergent evolution.
好的。
Okay.
不错。
Good.
然后这帮助我们建立了城市。
And then that helps us get cities.
城市对我们的生态系统以及周围的所有生命形式有什么影响呢？
And what effect do the cities have on our ecosystem and all the life forms around us?
我觉得这……
I think it's it's...
就像我们之前说的，土地利用的变化是最大的单一驱动因素。
As we were saying earlier, that land use transformation is the single biggest driver.
这意味着把森林变成农田，把野生草原变成耕地，把湿地变成农田。
And that means transforming forests into agricultural fields, wild grasslands into farmed land and, wetlands into farmland.
而真正加速这一过程的是城市，或者说是文明。
And it's really cities that supercharge this or civilization.
是那种更高级的社会组织形式以及随之而来的技术，把这些变化成倍地放大。
You know, it's the kind of higher level social organization and the technologies that go with it that dial that up exponentially.
而且……
And it's...
我觉得我们甚至很难直观地理解这种变化有多大。
I think it's hard for us to even sort of understand intuitively how vast this change is.
比如说原始森林，我在书里提到过，它们非常难以清除。
So like old growth forests, I put out in the book, they're they're very hard to get rid of.
要清除一片满是数百年老橡树的森林，需要付出大量的劳动。
You know, it takes it takes a ton of labor to get rid of a forest full of oak trees that are hundreds of years old.
然而，在温带地区，他们却几乎把这些森林完全清除了。
And yet, managed to almost completely get rid of them at temperate latitudes.
所以欧洲曾经有广袤的原始森林，但到工业革命时，大部分已经消失了。
So Europe had vast old growth forests that are mostly gone by, by the time of the industrial revolution.
甚至在罗马时代，这些森林在罗马世界就已经消失很久了。
Even by Roman times, they're they're long gone in the Roman world.
这，我……
It's, I...
在书里，我有一段……
In the book, have the...
一个场景是，当尤利乌斯·凯撒和罗马军团征服高卢——大致相当于现在的法国——他们来到莱茵河边境时，被一个我们如今会称之为生态边界的地方深深震撼了。高卢高度城市化、文明且技术先进，而莱茵河对岸的日耳曼地区，则仍以小规模社会为主。
A scene where when Julius Caesar and the Roman legions are conquering Gaul, which is, you know, France more or less, and they sort of come up to the Rhine frontier, they're really struck by what we would recognize as a kind of ecological frontier between Gaul, which is which is highly urbanized and civilized kind of technologically advanced, and beyond Germany, which is still characterized by smaller scale societies.
从生态上看，有些地方的原始森林仍然存在，这让他们感到惊讶。
And ecologically, the old growth forests were in some cases still there, and they're struck by that.
而那些动物也让他们感到震惊。
And they're struck by these animals.
他说到了驯鹿和原牛。
Mean, talks about reindeer and aurochs.
他……
I mean, he...
现在已经灭绝了。
This is now extinct.
就是野生牛的祖先，对吧。
The wild ancestor of the cattle Right.
它们消失了，但四百年前还在。
Is gone, but it was still there until four hundred years ago.
凯撒去那里的时候，他看到的是一片古老的原始森林，里面还有像那些巨大的野生牛这样的动物，现在已经完全没有了。
And certainly when Julius Caesar goes there, he looks at an old growth ancient forest where you still have animals like these huge wild cattle, that is completely gone.
而它们消失的主要原因就是森林砍伐。
And it's essentially gone because of deforestation.
所以如果从生态的角度来看待文明，它的作用就是让我们有能力进行大规模的土地利用改变。
And so if we think of civilization from an ecological perspective, what it does is it empowers our ability to to conduct whole scale land use change.
这和铁技术确实有关。
And it does go with the technology, iron.
如果你是……
You know, if you're...
如果要砍树，青铜比石头好，但铁又比青铜好。
If you gotta cut down a a tree, bronze is better than stone, but iron is better than bronze.
这还关系到社会组织。
And it's it's social organization.
这些是集体行动。
These are collective enterprises.
我们通过灌溉改造湿地，也是如此。
The same is true of the way we transform wetlands, through irrigation.
人类社会的复杂性不断升级，这正是我们能够在区域范围内实施灌溉技术的基础。
This is a scaling up of human social complexity that lies behind our ability to to sort of implement irrigation technologies on landscape scales.
所以这就像是……
So it's just sort of a...
我们对自然的控制力呈指数级增长。
An exponential dialing up of our power over nature.
这里可能有点讽刺：正是解锁了新型社会复杂性，才导致了周围自然世界复杂性的破坏。
There might be a little bit of irony here in that the kind of unlocking of new modes of social complexity is responsible for damaging the complexity of the natural world around us.
这两者确实存在关联。
I mean, there's there's certainly a correlation.
但这并不是必然的。
You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.
我觉得为了我们的未来，我们不应该把这个问题想得太宿命论。
And I think for our future, we we don't wanna, think of it too deterministically.
但是，是的，确实有……
But, yes, there's...
你可以说，文化复杂性和多样化在某种程度上，是靠消耗自然系统来维持的。
You know, you can argue that, like, cultural complexity and diversification in some ways is fueled by, literally metabolizing natural systems.
而且你已经提到了类似重构盘古大陆的事情，我们通过贸易和运输，各种物种来回穿梭。
And, you already mentioned the sort of reconstruction of Pangaea, the fact that we trade and move and shuttle different species back and forth.
还有一个关于入侵物种的整个概念，也许你能帮我理解一下我的感受。
And there's a whole idea of invasive species, which maybe you can help me, get feelings about.
比如，我有点想说，入侵物种这个概念有点过时了，它是基于这样一种想法：在我们来到一个地区之前，那里的状态就是它一直以来的样子，也是它应该保持的样子。
Like, part of me wants to say the notion of an invasive species is sort of an antiquated one based on the idea that what happened before we came into a region is how it always was and how it always should be.
但实际上，自然是在不断变化的，物种也总是在做各种不同的事情。
Whereas in reality, nature is dynamical and species are always doing different kinds of things.
但当然，你也不想过度简化，以至于整个世界每个地方都有完全相同的动物种类。
But, of course, you don't wanna oversimplify so that the whole world has exactly the same set of animals in every place.
这确实很棘手，而且我想大家都明白这很棘手，入侵生物学和保育生物学界的人都在为此绞尽脑汁。
And it is tricky, and and I think everybody recognizes that it's tricky that people in the invasion biology community and conservation biology community wrestle with this.
他们担心，甚至连“入侵”这种说法，会不会让我们对外来生物产生一种排外的想法。
They worry, you know, does the language even of invasion sort of prime us to to, you know, think xenophobically about about organisms that don't belong.
那里确实有一些非常合理的问题。
And and there's some very legitimate questions there.
但这是一个在科学上非常棘手的问题，因为有太多……
But it's a very it's a very scientifically tricky question because there's such a...
很明显，随便拿一套关于什么该在、什么不该在的标准往一个生态系统上套，是有风险的。
An obvious risk of importing arbitrary norms of what does and doesn't belong in a in a given ecosystem.
正如你所说，即使没有人类，生态系统本身也是动态变化的，物种迁徙、领地扩张本来就是进化的常态。
Exactly as you say, ecosystems even without humans are dynamic and changing migration, territorial expansion are just part of the way evolution works.
所以我们应该看到这些情况并保持谨慎，但如果人类是导致这些扩张的因素，那我们就需要用不同的眼光来看待了。
And so we should recognize all of those things and be cautious, but at the same time, that we wanna pay a different kind of attention if humans are agents of territorial expansion.
这并不代表这就是坏事。
That doesn't make it bad.
只是说，好吧。
It just says, k.
我们感兴趣。
We're interested.
这属于另一种原因。
That's a different cause.
还有第二点，就是即便它对现有的物种多样性有不好的影响，也不一定就是坏事。
And then two, that if it has, negative implications for current species diversity, then, again, it doesn't necessarily make it bad.
但这确实会把我们的关注度和注意力提升到一个新的高度。
But it certainly sort of dials up our our level of interest and attention to another level.
而人类……
And humans...
这很重要，因为生物入侵如今是地球上导致物种灭绝的三四个主要原因之一。
And it's important because biological invasions are one of the three or four leading causes of extinction on the planet today.
它和那些大问题并列，比如土地利用变化。
I mean, it's up there with all of the biggies, land use change.
比如森林砍伐，对。
So deforestation Yeah.
还有农药和化学物质，全球变暖。
Pesticides and chemicals, global warming.
生物入侵被IPBES认定为导致生物多样性丧失的五大驱动因素之一，IPBES就像是一个全球性的、由政府认可的国际合作组织，专门处理生物多样性问题。
Biological invasion is recognized by the, you know, by the IPBS, which is sort of like the the global consortium of sort of government recognized international cooperation of biodiversity issues, recognizes biological invasion as one of the top five drivers of biodiversity loss.
所以我们确实……
So we do...
显然，由于它的复杂性，我们必须重视它，因为它是一个如此重要的驱动因素。
Obviously, we have to, with all of the the complexity of it, have to pay attention because it's such a a major driver.
而且这种情况已经持续了很长时间。
And it has been again for a very long time.
比如说，拿每个...
You know, take take for instance, like every...
那个...
The...
有史以来最著名的灭绝事件是什么？
What's the most famous extinction of all time?
大概就是渡渡鸟了。
It's probably the dodo.
它是一种鸟。
It's a it's a bird.
它基本上是一种奇特的、美丽的陆栖鸽子，生活在毛里求斯。
It's a weird, beautiful ground pigeon, basically, that exists on Mauritius.
所以在马斯克林群岛，就是马达加斯加东边、印度洋上的那些岛，葡萄牙人然后荷兰人，在十六、十七世纪的时候到了那里，渡渡鸟就在那里。
So in the Mascreen Islands, sort of East of Madagascar and the Indian Ocean, the the Portuguese and then the Dutch show up in the the sixteenth and seventeenth century, and the dodo is there.
渡渡鸟过得好好的。
The dodo is doing fine.
我们常说“像渡渡鸟一样消失”，意思是灭绝，因为它过时了，这其实挺可惜的。
It's a real pity that we sort of, like, say, go the way of the dodo, and we mean to sort of go extinct because you were obsolete.
渡渡鸟当时过得挺滋润的。
The dodo is doing perfectly fine.
进化很有创造力。
Evolution is very creative.
它适应了自己的生态位。
It's adapted to its niche.
它适应了自己的生态位。
It's adapted to its niche.
那些岛可偏远着呢。
Those islands are way out there.
那里的哺乳动物不多。
There's not many mammals.
基本上没有哺乳动物，除了几只蝙蝠。
There's really no mammals except, some bats.
所以进化把一只鸟变成了哺乳动物。
And so evolution made a mammal out of a bird.
渡渡鸟基本上就是一种哺乳动物，碰巧……
The dodo is basically a a mammal that happens...
一种鸟类，过着类似哺乳动物的生活方式，在我们出现之前一直过得很好。
A a bird that lives like a kinda mammal lifestyle, and is doing perfectly fine till we show up.
而且还有……
And there's...
渡渡鸟……
The the dodo...
我提这个例子，是因为它经历了人类影响生物多样性的所有机制。
I bring up this case because it experiences all of the mechanisms by which humans impact biodiversity.
我们又在捕杀它，又在吃它。
We're killing and eating it.
我们在改变它的栖息地。
We're changing its habitat.
但我的直觉是，它主要是被入侵物种害的，因为葡萄牙人和荷兰人一到，他们带来了什么？
But my my hunch would be that it's mainly a victim of invasive species because when the Portuguese and Dutch show up, what comes with them?
当然是其他动物，是我们带来的。
Well, other animals that we bring.
这就包括黑鼠，这种讨厌的共栖啮齿动物特别爱吃鸟蛋。
And this means black rats, which are a nasty commensal rodent that love to eat bird eggs.
还带来一些猴子，比如食蟹猕猴。
Bring certain kinds of monkeys, crab eating macaques.
我们也带来了猫。
We bring cats.
有些是故意的。
Some of these are intentional.
有些则是无意的。
Some of these are unintentional.
但我们引入了山羊，引入了猴子，引入了猫，还引入了老鼠。
But we introduce, you know, we introduce goats, we we introduce monkeys, we introduce cats, we introduce rats.
光是这四种……
Those four alone...
还有猪。
And pigs.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我本来应该把猪也算进去，因为猪是……
I should have included pigs because pigs are...
猪可是些挺讨厌的动物。
I mean, pigs are nasty animals.
它们是杂食动物。
They're omnivores.
它们……
They're...
它们自己就能活得很好。
They do very well on their own.
俄克拉荷马州的野猪简直不可思议。
The the feral pigs in Oklahoma are unbelievable.
而且它们什么都吃。
And they eat everything.
它们吃鸟蛋。
They eat bird eggs.
渡渡鸟灭绝很可能就是因为入侵物种。
And probably what happens to the dodo is invasive species.
各种因素都有。
It's all of these things.
但你知道，历史上最著名的物种灭绝，如果你承认渡渡鸟有这个地位的话，就是因为入侵物种。
But, know, you the most famous species extinction sort of in history, if you if you grant the dodo that status, is because of invasive species.
这提醒我们，把动物引入生态系统会产生多大的影响，会改变一切。
And it's just sort of a a reminder of how powerful it is when you introduce animals, ecosystems, it changes things.
这些事情的影响，有些可以预料，有些完全无法预料。
It it affects things in ways that are predictable and unpredictable.
这也是我们影响生物圈的最重要的方式之一。
And it's one of the most important ways in which we impact the biosphere.
而我们之所以影响得这么快、这么广，是因为我们是流动性很强的物种。
And we do it so rapidly, so pervasively because we're such a mobile species.
我们喜欢到处跑。
We love to move.
我们喜欢带着东西走。
We like to take things with us.
所以我们经常引进外来的植物和动物。
So very often, you know, we import exotic plants and animals.
只要我们有猪和山羊，就有人把它们放到岛上，因为它们很容易存活，而且我们也想吃它们。
People have dumped pigs and goats on islands as long as we've had pigs and goats, because they do really well and because we wanna eat them.
而这些动物通常会给当地的特有物种带来很多麻烦。
And they usually spell a lot of trouble for for endemic animals.
所以，入侵物种其实无处不在，我们甚至都忘了它们的分布有多奇怪。
So, invasive species are, you know, all around us in ways that we forget how weird the the distribution.
我们现在觉得很正常的动物，其实很多时候都是人类引进的结果，这些引进也不一定都是坏事，但得看它们带来的后果。
Animals that we now take to be normal are really very often the result of human introductions, which again, aren't necessarily always bad, but would judge them by their their consequences.
我以前住在洛杉矶，那里到处都是棕榈树。
I used to live in Los Angeles, and there are palm trees everywhere.
后来我惊讶地发现，棕榈树并不是那片地区的原生植物。
And I was shocked to learn that palm trees are not from around that area.
对。
No.
我们确实也同样在大量地移植植物。
We've been we've been moving plants around just as much for sure.
而且，对，那个……
And, yeah, the...
所以我……
So I...
这真的很有帮助，因为我本来会讲那个常见的小学故事，说人类来了，把渡渡鸟都打死了，但其实更像是……
That's that's very helpful because I would have said the usual elementary school story that human beings came and shot all the dodos, but, it's more like the...
不是单个的人拿着枪，而是整个人类的概念，以及人类带来的一切附属品，最终导致了那次灭绝。
It's not individual humans with their guns, but the whole idea of humanity and all of the retinue of humanity that ended up with that extinction happening.
完全正确。
Exactly.
就是这些附带的东西。
It's it's the retinue.
我喜欢这个说法。
I like that.
而且……
And...
好了。
Okay.
所以……
So...
然后现在我们确实谈到了真正的气候变化。
And then now we do get to this real climate change.
就是伴随工业革命等等而来的气候变化。
I mean, the climate climate change that accompanies the industrial revolution, etcetera.
我又有这种感觉，虽然我不是什么超级专家，就是关于第六次大灭绝，说人类导致那么多物种灭绝，这在很大程度上跟污染和气候变化有关。
I have the feeling again, not as a super expert, that the talk of the sixth extinction about how human beings are causing so many species to go extinct is largely tied with some combination of pollution and climate change.
嗯，是的。
Well, yes.
虽然，但我会再说一遍，这些因素都有。
Although although I would say again, it's all of it.
而且在某些方面，工业革命是最重要的革命，是人类生活自农业以来最重要的转变。
And in some ways, you know, the industrial revolution is the most important revolution, the most important transformation in human life since agriculture.
你可以这样想，从采集狩猎到农耕，从农耕到工业，这真的是我们与自然相处的两次革命。
And in ways you can think, the shift from foraging to farming and from farming to industry are really the the two revolutions in the way we relate to to nature.
工业革命在某种程度上是启蒙运动和科学革命的产物。
And the industrial revolution is, you know, in some ways, it's it's a product of the enlightenment, the scientific revolution and the enlightenment.
我们开始越来越快地发现自然的运作规律。
We start to discover how nature works faster and faster.
然后我们把这些知识应用到技术上，比如利用煤炭和后来的碳氢化合物，这些能源被我们用来驱动机器做功。
And then we apply this knowledge to technologies, that use resources like coal, and then eventually hydrocarbons that give us new sources of of energy that we harness to machines to to do work.
这大大加速了我们影响生物圈的每一种方式。
And this supercharges sort of every mechanism through which we impact the biosphere.
它加速了土地用途的变化，因为我们有了更强大的工具来砍伐树木，把地貌转变成农田。
It supercharges land use change because now we have more powerful tools to to cut down trees and to, convert landscapes over to farming.
它迅速加剧了外来物种的问题，因为现在我们不再依赖风力来跨越海洋。
It rapidly increases the the problem of invasive species because now we don't have to rely on, you know, wind power to move us across oceans.
我们有了蒸汽动力。
We do have steam power.
铁路让我们在陆地上移动。
We have railroads move us across land.
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