美国对中国

本集《搜索引擎》由MUBI部分赞助播出，MUBI是一家致力于推广优秀电影的全球电影公司。

This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by MUBI, the global film company that champions great cinema.

从标志性导演到新锐作者，总有新的作品等待你去发现。

From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover.

通过MUBI，每一部电影都经过精心挑选，让你探索电影的最高境界。

With MUBI, each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

如果你正在寻找非凡之作，千万别错过《父亲的阴影》，该片将于2月13日登陆美国影院。

If you're looking for something extraordinary, don't miss My Father's Shadow, coming to US theaters on February 13.

该片由阿卡诺拉·戴维斯·小约翰执导，是首部入围戛纳电影节主竞赛单元的尼日利亚电影。

Directed by Akanola Davies Junior, it's the first Nigerian film ever in official competition at Cannes.

这部诗意而温柔的故事，讲述了一位父亲与他两个年幼儿子在1993年充满政治氛围的拉各斯城中，如何维系彼此的关系。

This poetic and tender story follows a father and his two young sons navigating their relationship against the vibrant, politically charged city of Lagos in 1993.

影片由现实中的兄弟阿卡诺拉·戴维斯·小约翰和瓦莱·戴维斯编剧，由夏派·达里舒主演，悄然揭示了家庭中那些未曾言说的纽带。

Written by real life brothers Akanola Davies junior and Wale Davies and starring Xhapae Darishu, it's a film that quietly uncovers the unspoken bonds of family.

无论你已是优秀电影的忠实爱好者，还是刚刚开始接触，MUBI都将世界最杰出的影片直接带到你的屏幕前。

Whether you're already a lover of great cinema or just discovering it, Mubi brings the world's best films straight to your screen.

要观看最优秀的电影，你可以前往 mubi.com/searchengine 免费试用三十天。

To stream the best of cinema, you can try Mubi free for thirty days at mubi.com/searchengine.

访问 mubi.com/search engine，即可免费享受一整月的优质电影。

That's mubi.com/search engine for a whole month of great cinema for free.

过去十年中最令人心碎的电视剧取消之一，就是我非常喜爱的《Review》，由喜剧演员安迪·戴利主演。

One of the more tragic TV show cancellations of the last decade was this show I really loved called Review, starring the comedian Andy Daly.

戴利饰演的角色名叫福雷斯特·麦克尼尔。

Daly played a character named Forrest McNeil.

福雷斯特是一位穿着粗花呢外套的知识分子，一名职业评论家，他评论的不是书籍、电影或专辑，而是观众要求他以五分制评分的生活体验。

Forrest, a Tweedie intellectual, a professional reviewer who reviewed not books or movies or albums, but life experiences his audience requested on a five star scale.

从吃煎饼这样平凡的事，到更引人深思的如偷窃、药物成瘾、宽恕和活埋等主题，都有专门的剧集探讨。

From the mundane, like there was an episode about eating pancakes, to the more interesting, peer reviewed stealing and drug addiction, forgiveness, and being buried alive.

我喜欢这部剧，不仅因为它幽默，更因为它让我注意到现实生活中的一个现象：我们确实生活在一个极度依赖评价的文化中。

I like the show because it's funny, but also because it made me notice something about real life, which is that we really do live in a very review obsessed culture.

没有任何体验足够私密、亲密或神圣到可以避开被评论的命运。

There's no experience too personal or intimate or sacred to avoid being the subject of a review.

人们不仅评价他们的癌症治疗，还评价他们患癌的经历。

People review not just their cancer treatment, but their experience of cancer.

人们评价他们在教堂听到的布道、约会的经历，一切的一切。

People review the sermons they hear in church, the dates they go on, everything.

这周，我读了关于辣豆酱和豆子的食谱评价、我早已拥有的背包的评价，还有三篇关于小说《辉煌事迹》的评价——而这本书我早就读过了，只是为了看看除了我的朋友泽夫之外，是否还有人和我一样喜欢它。

I, this week, read reviews for chili recipes for beans, beans, a backpack I already own, three separate reviews of the novel Glorious Exploits, which I'd already read, just to see if anyone besides my friend Zev had loved it as much as I did.

这里另一位播客主持人可能会陷入推测这种大量评价意味着什么的陷阱，推测我们现代人为什么如此热衷于不断对主观体验的质量发表意见。

A different podcaster here might fall into the trap of speculating about what all this reviewing means, what it says about us modern humans that we want to testify constantly about the quality of subjective experiences.

而我，提出我们这个评价泛滥的问题，是为了指出一个令人震惊地几乎无人评价的领域。

I, instead, am raising the specter of our review epidemic to point to one area that shockingly mostly goes unreviewed.

人类生活中一个核心的部分，我几乎不记得见过任何直接的优缺点评价。

A core part of human life that I cannot recall reading a straightforward pros and cons review for.

国家。

Countries.

我们所生活的国家。

The countries we live in.

你住在哪里，决定了你生活的方方面面。

Where you live determines so much about your life.

你可能已经注意到，各国之间差异巨大。

And countries, you may have noticed, are very different from each other.

但尽管你可以阅读度假目的地的评价，却几乎从来看不到这样的评价：这里是作为公民的优缺点。

But while you can read reviews of vacation destinations, you'll almost never read a review that describes, here are the pluses and minuses of being a citizen here.

也许这任务太过艰巨。

Maybe it's too big a task.

也许我们害怕显得不礼貌或过于评判。

Maybe we're afraid of being impolite or judgmental.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我所注意到的是，我们大多数人评价了几乎所有事物，唯独忽略了最重要的一件事。

All I've noticed is that most of us review pretty much everything except one of the most important things.

我们大多数人都是如此，除了我今天的嘉宾。

Most of us, except for my guest today.

丹，你能介绍一下自己吗？

Dan, can you introduce yourself?

是的。

Yeah.

我是《中国之问：未来工程师》的作者。

I'm author of China's Quest Engineer of the Future.

我正在从旧金山向你讲话。

I'm speaking to you from San Francisco.

我是斯坦福大学胡佛研究所的研究员，非常高兴能参加这个节目。

I'm a research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, and I'm really excited to be on the show.

感谢你加入我们。

Thank you for joining us.

丹·王并不把自己称为国家评论员。

Dan Wong does not refer to himself as a country reviewer.

这是我的幽默说法，并不是他的。

This is my silly frame, not his.

但我对现代中国非常好奇，这是一个我了解太少的地方。

But I'm very curious about modern China, a place I know too little about.

尽管中国频繁出现在我们的新闻头条中，包括我们本周的贸易谈判。

This despite how often China shows up in our headlines, including our trade talks this week.

在丹的新书中，这本书实际上起到了对中国和美国双重审视的作用。

In Dan's new book, it actually kind of functions as a review of both China and America.

他的写作风格是评论家的视角，意味着他并不偏袒任何一方。

His writing voice is a critic's voice, meaning he's not a stand for either place.

他冷静地试图思考每个国家是如何运作的，为何不运作，以及如何才能变得更好。

He's dispassionately trying to think through how each country works, how it doesn't, how each could be better.

我之所以邀请他来到《搜索引擎》节目，是因为读他的作品，我不仅了解了中国，也了解了美国。

And I wanted him to join us on Search Engine because reading him, I learned about China, but I also learned about America.

所以，好吧。

So okay.

直接告诉我，你的故事吧。

Just tell me, like, your story.

比如说，跟我讲讲你和中国的关系，以及随着你人生和职业生涯的发展，这种关系是如何演变的。

Like, tell me about your relationship with China and how that's evolved as you've moved through your life and your career.

我的家人来自中国西南部的一个叫云南的地区，那里山峦起伏，远离沿海，食物辛辣，人们相对随和。

My family is from Southwestern China, a region called Yunnan, which is heavily mountainous, very far away from the coasts, where the food is spicy and the people are relatively relaxed.

我七岁的时候，父母和我从云南移民了。

My parents and I emigrated from Yunnan when I was seven years old.

我们搬到了加拿大的多伦多，我主要在渥太华长大，所以我仍然是加拿大公民。

We moved to Toronto in Canada, And I mostly grew up in Ottawa, and so I'm still a Canadian citizen.

当我16岁的时候，我和父母又搬到了宾夕法尼亚州的巴克斯县。

My parents and I also moved when I was 16 to Bucks County, PA.

那是费城郊区，我父母现在还住在那里。

This is, Philly Burbs where my parents still are.

我觉得我一生中在美国、加拿大和中国的时间大致相等。

And I feel like I've spent about equal amounts of my life between The US, Canada, as well as China.

现在，我在大学里主修哲学。

Now I studied philosophy in college.

我退学去科技行业工作了。

I dropped out to go work in tech.

我去硅谷工作了。

I went to go work in Silicon Valley.

在2016年，我觉得硅谷当时在做的事情——很多消费类初创公司、大量加密货币——远没有中国正在发生的事情有趣。

And in the year 2016, I thought that what Silicon Valley had been doing then, you know, a lot of these consumer startups, a lot of cryptocurrencies, I thought that was much less interesting than what was going on in China.

因此，在2017年初，我搬到中国，成为一名全球宏观研究公司的科技分析师。

And so at the start of twenty seventeen, I moved to China to be a technology analyst at a global macro research firm.

好的。

Okay.

所以你在美国科技行业工作，经历了加密货币的兴起，但你觉得这没什么意思。

So you you were in America working in tech during the rise of crypto, and you were just like, this doesn't seem that interesting.

我更感兴趣的是中国现在正在发生的事情。

I'm interested in what is happening in China right now.

当时中国科技行业到底发生了什么，让你觉得这更值得投入你的智慧？

Like, what was happening in Chinese tech industry that you were like, this seems like a more interesting use of my mind.

当时，中国政府公布了一项名为‘中国制造2025’的重大产业计划，这引起了美国政府的强烈不满，因为北京方面明确表示，他们希望在未来主导十个关键产业。

At the time, the Chinese government had announced this major industrial plan called made in China 2025, which raised a lot of hackles with the US government because Beijing essentially said there are 10 major industries that we really wanna dominate in the future.

这些产业包括航运、半导体、农业设备和清洁能源等重要领域，并且他们具体设定了中国公司在全球市场中应占据的份额目标。

These include important industries like, you know, shipping and semiconductors and agriculture equipment and clean technologies, and they specified the amount of market share that Chinese companies ought to have in the world.

因此，我觉得像内存芯片、特高压输电、电动汽车电池这些领域，远比当时硅谷所幻想的东西更令人兴奋。

And so I thought that these things like memory chips, ultra high voltage transmission, electric vehicle batteries, that was just much more exciting than what Silicon Valley was dreaming of at the time.

在你对硅谷梦想的狭隘感到反感之前，你有没有一种想法——我听到许多在硅谷工作的人普遍认为，中国是一个企图窃取美国知识产权的势力，你必须保护好自己的创意。

And before you had become sort of, like, repulsed by the smallness of the dreams of Silicon Valley, did you have an idea like, I feel like the popular conception that I hear from many people working in Silicon Valley is that China is sort of this force that is coming to steal American IP, and, like, you have to protect your ideas.

你必须确保它们不会 somehow 被带到那边去。

You have to make sure that, like, they don't somehow get over there.

你以前持这种观点吗？还是你根本不这么认为？

Did you have that view, or did you not have that view?

我认为我曾经有过这种看法，而且西海岸有一种对中国的流行解释，那就是中国窃取了大量知识产权。

I think that I had that view, and I think there's a West Coast flavor of how China got really good, and that is that the Chinese stole a lot of IP.

同时，东海岸还有一种对中国的看法，认为中国之所以强大，是因为他们通过产业补贴等手段进行不公平竞争。

And then I think there is also an East Coast view of how China got good, and that is because the Chinese were essentially cheating and creating a market through industrial subsidies.

我认为这两种观点中都有一点道理，但我觉得这两种观点实际上都相当荒谬。

And I think there is a small kernel of truth in both of these views, but I think both of these views are actually pretty silly.

我认为，中国能够达到技术前沿，不可能仅仅靠大量窃取知识产权或单纯依靠补贴，那里一定还有更多深层次的原因，我确实感受到了这一点。

And I think you cannot get to the technological frontier as China has through just a lot of stealing or through just a lot of subsidies, that there was much more going on there, and I I definitely felt that.

我认为或许还可以再稍微深入一点，从哲学角度来谈。

And I think there is a little bit more maybe I can be slightly more philosophical than that.

我在渥太华长大，那并不是加拿大最大的城市。

I grew up in Ottawa, which is not the biggest city in Canada.

它大概是加拿大第三或第四大城市。

It was I think it's, like, the third or fourth largest city in Canada.

对于许多加拿大人来说，去美国安家立业是一条成熟的道路。

And there is a well traveled pathway for a lot of Canadians to go establish themselves in The US.

我感觉，许多最有抱负的加拿大人都会去加利福尼亚。

I think there is a definite sense that a lot of the most ambitious Canadians go to California, say.

作为加拿大人，你总会有一种观念，认为纽约或旧金山是闪耀的中心，每个人都必须去那里。

And you kind of had this conception as a Canadian that New York or San Francisco is this luminous court center in which everyone really has to be there.

我确实到了旧金山，但对那里的许多基础设施感到非常失望，而这些设施至今仍未得到改善。

I actually got to San Francisco, and I was pretty disappointed with a lot of the infrastructure, which hasn't really been fixed today.

我的意思是，几个小时后我就会走过旧金山，地上仍然到处都是注射器。

I mean, you walk through San Francisco, as I will do in a few hours, and there's still a lot of syringes on the ground.

仍然有很多人找不到住房，基础设施也严重瘫痪。

There's still a lot of people unable to find housing, and the infrastructure is deeply broken.

湾区在很多方面都令人极度失望，就像纽约市一样——尽管它的公共交通相对正常，但地铁依然发出刺耳的金属刮擦声，轰隆驶来。

There's all sorts of ways in which the Bay Area is profoundly disappointing in the same way that, you know, even New York City, which has relatively functional mass transit, still has these screechingly loud subways that, you know, arrive themselves with this metallic screech.

作为一个相对有抱负的年轻加拿大人，我被美国吸引，但发现它并没有传说中那么美好。

I was attracted to The US as in relatively ambitious young Canadian person and then did not find it, all that it was cracked up to be.

因此，我最终在中国的三大经济中心之间度过了六年。

And so I ended up spending six years in China between three of its main economic hubs.

首先是香港。

First, Hong Kong.

其次是北京。

Second, Beijing.

第三，上海。

Third, Shanghai.

在接下来的对话中，丹将谈谈他作为极少数人之一，生活在世界两大竞争超级大国之间所学到的东西。

For the rest of this conversation, Dan's gonna talk about what he learned living, as so few of us get to, a life split between the world's two competing superpowers.

他欣赏这两个地方。

He appreciates both places.

对于每个国家，他都有明确的想法，关于美国应该向中国学习什么，反之亦然。

And for each country, he also has notes, very clear ideas about what America should take from China, and vice versa.

但在我们深入这些之前，我其实想让他给我描绘一些心理明信片。

But before we get to all that, I actually wanted him to just draw me some mental postcards.

关于香港、北京和上海的心理明信片。

Postcards of Hong Kong, Beijing, and Shanghai.

我之所以想要这些，一方面是因为我对这些城市的印象非常模糊，另一方面是因为一个优秀的评论者不仅告诉你什么是好或坏。

I wanted this both because my mental image of these cities is really weak, but also because a critic doesn't just give you an opinion about what's good or bad.

如果他们足够出色，他们会教你一种新的观察方式。

They teach you, if they're good, a new way of noticing.

他们为你提供一种更敏锐的观察与聆听方式。

They lend you a sharper way to watch and to listen.

那么首先，香港。

So to begin, Hong Kong.

香港是一个极其美丽的地方。

Hong Kong is this really incredibly beautiful place.

它简直就像曼哈顿倾倒进了毛伊岛，于是你看到这些令人惊叹的……

It it really feels like as if Manhattan had toppled into Maui, and so they have these Wow.

非常美丽的摩天大楼。

Incredible skyscrapers that are very beautiful.

香港岛被群山环绕，本质上是一个巨大的热带岛屿，你可以在摩天大楼里上完一天班后去登山，观赏一些非常奇妙的野生动物，晚上再吃些热带水果。

Hong Kong Island is ringed by mountains, and it is essentially a big tropical island where you can go climbing after your day at the office in in these skyscrapers and go see some pretty amazing wildlife and then eat tropical fruits at night.

这种独特的自然环境确实非常非凡。

And so there's something pretty incredible about that particular natural setting.

我的生活区域位于岛的西边，靠近香港大学，离地铁站很近。

My life was to live near a subway stop on the western side of the island near Hong Kong University.

每天，我都会穿过人群，进入地铁，高峰时段地铁每两到三分钟就有一班，虽然通常非常拥挤，但运行得非常好。

And every day, I would go through these throngs of people, enter the subway, which comes every two to three minutes at peak hour and is mostly pretty packed but functions very, very well.

我乘坐的地铁会发出刺耳的噪音吗？

I would take Is it screechy?

完全不刺耳。

Not at all screechy.

环境相对安静，还有玻璃门防止人们跳上轨道或被推上轨道。

Things are relatively quiet, and there are these glass doors to prevent people from jumping onto the tracks or getting shoved onto the tracks.

你进入这些密集的人群中，但每个人都非常有礼貌。

And you enter these really big masses of people, but everyone is very polite.

地铁里有空调。

The subways are air conditioned.

我会向东坐四站到中央商务区，下车后走进办公室。

I take something like four stops east into the central business district, get off, and go into the office.

但香港也给人一种经济上相当停滞、官僚气息浓厚的感觉。

But Hong Kong also felt economically quite stagnant, economically quite bureaucratic.

我对此写了一点看法，关于香港自上世纪九十年代以来一直显得停滞不前。

I wrote a little bit about this, about how Hong Kong feels pretty stuck since the nineteen nineties.

那时它是一座非常先进的城市，但此后并没有发生实质性的变化。

It was a really advanced city back then, but has not changed very substantially.

香港完全由一群地产大亨掌控。

It's entirely ruled by a bunch of property tycoons.

如果你是从事金融行业的外籍人士，只想整天喝鸡尾酒，那么香港这座城市运作得非常好。

Hong Kong is a city that works really well if you are an expat working in the financial industry, and what you want mostly is to sip cocktails all day.

但这并不是我的生活，这就是为什么我最终来到了北京。

And that was not my life, which is why I ended up in Beijing.

所以，我们可以把香港称为‘毛伊岛上的曼哈顿’。

And so Hong Kong is, let's call it, Manhattan On Maui.

北京是一座斯大林式的城市。

Beijing is this Stalinist city.

在毛泽东时代，所有这些宏伟辉煌的帝国建筑都被拆毁，取而代之的是这些赫鲁晓夫式的混凝土楼房。

All of these incredible, wonderful imperial buildings were torn down during Mao's rule and replaced with these Khrushchev like concrete blocks.

我住在城市相对中心的位置，因此步行去上班。

I lived relatively in the center of the city, and so I ended up walking to work.

我曾走过北京最豪华的户外购物中心之一，这非常奇怪。

I was walking through one of Beijing's most luxurious outdoor mall areas, which is very strange.

那里有很多路易威登店铺，还有一家苹果商店就在那儿。

A lot of these Louis Vuitton stores, there's an Apple store right there.

我每天早上都在星巴克买一杯咖啡。

I picked up a coffee every morning at Starbucks.

步行到办公室需要十五到二十分钟，这反而变得相当惬意。

It was a fifteen, twenty minute walk to the office, and that ended up being pretty pleasant.

北京在许多方面都令人兴奋，但我也对其中的神秘感和阴暗面感到些许不安。

Beijing is thrilling in all sorts of ways, but I also was a little bit more distressed by the mysteries as well as the sinister elements.

我住在北京的使馆区。

And where I lived in Beijing was the Embassy district.

你每天都会看到全套安保人员出现，不仅有普通警察，还有穿着军装的人民武装警察，他们经常在街道上巡逻。

You would see, you know, the full complement of security come into view pretty much every day, not only regular police, but also the people's armed police, which wears military uniforms, and they sort of patrol around the streets quite often.

而且时不时地，你会看到正规军队，也就是中国人民解放军。

And every so often, you would see the professional military, which is the People's Liberation Army.

我认为北京的一切都是为了展现国家权力。

And I think everything about Beijing was meant to project state power.

所以你有像天安门广场这样的大型场所，感觉这些林荫大道更像是为军队阅兵而建，而非为普通人的日常生活服务。

And so you have big places like Tiananmen Square, and it feels a little bit like all of these boulevards were built more for army parades than for ordinary life.

当我住在上海时，我认为上海和北京之间的对比尤为鲜明。

And then when I lived in Shanghai, I think the the contrast between Shanghai and Beijing is especially stark.

上海绝对是我在这些城市中最喜欢的城市。

Shanghai is definitely my favorite city of all of these.

也许它至今仍然是我在亚洲最喜欢的城市。

Maybe it is still my favorite city in Asia.

上海在很大程度上是由法国人，以及美国人和英国人建造的，他们当时都是这座城市的帝国主义统治者。

It was built by the French in very substantial part as well as the Americans and the British who were all imperialist overlords in the city.

但法国人在其租界内建设了这些绿树成荫的林荫大道，遍布咖啡馆，以及具有法国南部风格的建筑，那是一个非常舒适的地方。

But what the French vested in their zone, the French concession, was these very leafy boulevards full of cafes and full of these buildings built in the southern French style, and it was a really comfortable place.

上海长期以来一直是东亚地区的一个地方，人们在这里享受更精致的生活，品茶、享用美食、创作诗歌已有数百年历史。

Shanghai has been kind of a zone of Eastern China where people have enjoyed finer things in life, teas and excellent cuisine and composing poetry for hundreds of years.

这就是中国这一地区的声誉。

That is the reputation of that part of China.

那里感觉极其舒适，我们确实觉得称上海为‘东方巴黎’是完全合理的。

And it just felt incredibly comfortable, and we really did feel that it was valid to call Shanghai the Paris of the East.

我们总是取笑北京的朋友：你们在‘西方平壤’干什么呢？

We would all tease our friends in Beijing, what are you doing in Western Pyongyang?

因为对那些殖民者来说，感觉就是如此。

Because it just felt to those colonists.

实际上，这些大城市形成了鲜明的对比。

Great cities in contrast, actually.

那你有没有觉得自己找到了一直寻找的那种归属感？

And did you feel like you'd found the function that you'd been looking for?

比如，你有没有一种感觉，刚到那里就意识到：哦，这里是个真正运转良好的地方？

Like, did you feel like you'd found a place where like, on arrival, did you have the feeling of, oh, oh, like, this is a place where things essentially work?

不。

No.

我？不？

I No?

我仍在努力寻找我的人生光辉核心。

Am still trying to find my, you know, luminous center of life.

我认为中国对许多人来说确实有很多运转良好的方面，但我可能会被看作一个永远不满足的加拿大人。

I think there are really well functioning things in China for many people, but I am I'm going to be cast as an eternally dissatisfied Canadian.

但每个地方都有好的方面。

But there are good things in all places.

我认为，如果你在上海待久了，会发现这座城市很多方面自九十年代以来一直停滞不前，因为房地产大亨们长期掌控着它。

I think my issue with Shanghai, if you spend much time there, there are a lot of things about the city that feels very, very stuck since the nineteen nineties because the property tycoons have ruled it for a long time.

我们还记得2019年那场由年轻人主导的大规模抗议活动。

And we can remember some of these big protests led by young people, especially in the year 2019.

我对一代人因深感被困、无力负担住房而就各种问题——尤其是政治自由——发起抗议，并不感到意外。

I ended up being not so surprised that a generation of people who feel really stuck and unable to afford their housing would protest over all sorts of things, mostly political freedoms.

但我明白，许多年轻人感到不满。

But I understood that a lot of young people felt dissatisfied.

但也许我所追求的最接近的刺激感，体现在上海，那里要舒适得多。

But maybe the closest of the the thrills that I was seeking was represented by Shanghai, which was much more comfortable.

它感觉非常有活力，人们也知道如何好好生活，就像在纽约那样，而旧金山的人们却不懂。

It felt really dynamic, and people also knew how to live well as one knows in New York and one does not know in San Francisco.

我得承认，丹给我的印象是，尽管我跟他相处时间很短，但他似乎是个永远不满足的人，而这恰恰是批评家的一个不错定义。

I have to admit, Dan does strike me in the short time I've gotten to speak to him as perhaps an eternally dissatisfied person, which is not a bad definition of a critic.

这种职业性的不满所带来的积极面，是他注意到的一切事物。

The upside of that professional dissatisfaction is everything it makes Dan notice.

听他说话时，我感觉自己像一台漂浮在异国街头的摄像机，不断追问：住在这里是什么感觉？

Listening to him, I feel like I'm a camera floating down foreign streets, asking always, what's it like to live here?

作为一名专业人士，作为一名中产阶级人士，公共交通怎么样？

As a professional person, as a middle class person, how's the public transit?

住房情况如何？

How's the housing?

有人买得起吗？

Can anyone afford it?

公园舒服吗？

Are the parks comfortable?

我独自散步时感到安全吗？

Do I feel safe wandering?

我能否在不时刻提防罪犯或国家特工的情况下放松警惕？

Can I let my guard down without being vigilant about criminals or agents of the state?

我已在同一个地方住了二十年，纽约市。

I've lived in the same place for twenty years, New York City.

但这次对话让我意识到，我对自己生活的城市关注得太少了。

But this conversation was reminding me how little I notice it.

我活在自己的思绪里、手机里、书里、播客里。

I live in my head, my phone, a book, a podcast.

我通常不会留意自己行走的空间，除非有人提醒我。

I don't usually notice the spaces I walk in, unless someone else primes me to.

这周，我听到了地铁的尖啸声。

This week, I heard the screech of the subway.

我注意到我住的社区、大西洋大道旁那条功能失常的高速公路匝道，这大概是某个心理扭曲的疯子设计的，他从汽车喇叭声中获得快感。

I noticed the dysfunctional highway on ramp in my neighborhood off Atlantic Avenue, built by some kind of sick pervert who gets off on the sound of honking horns.

但丹的工作，不仅仅是关注基础设施。

Dan's work, though, it's about noticing more than just infrastructure.

我想向他了解，对中国普通民众来说，经济感受如何——花钱、缴税、获得医疗服务。

And I wanted to know from him how the economy feels to Chinese citizens, spending money, paying taxes, getting health care.

因为到目前为止，我从其他人那里听到的说法让我感到困惑。

Because what I'd heard so far from other people confused me.

例如，今天的中国真的还有任何共产主义色彩吗？

For instance, is China today actually at all communist?

我现在真的理解共产主义吗？

Do I even understand communism right now?

PJ，我认为你用共产主义的视角来理解中国并不是你的错，因为共产党正竭尽全力欺骗你，让你以为它仍然是某种社会主义乌托邦。

Now, PJ, I think it is not your fault that you are reasoning through China in terms of communism because I think the communist party is doing its best to hoodwink you that it is still some sort of a socialist utopia.

我认为，中国确实拥有许多共产主义的外在形式。

And I think, certainly, it is the case that China has a lot of these trappings of communism.

你知道，他们有盛大的仪式感。

You know, they have this great pageantry.

他们会庆祝卡尔·马克思的重要诞辰。

They celebrate the major birthdays of Karl Marx.

整个政治局成员身披红旗，头顶挂着一位留着巨大德国胡须的肖像，这景象实在怪异。

It's really strange to have the entire politburo draped in red flags with this portrait of a gigantic German beard that is hanging over all of them.

但中国共产党会唱《国际歌》，并自称为一个非常共产主义的国家。

But, you know, the Chinese Communist Party, they sing the Internationale, and they talk about themselves as a very communist state.

我认为这种观点存在很多问题，我想加以质疑。

And I think there's a lot of problems with that view that I wanna challenge.

那我所理解的正常共产主义或社会主义国家所具备的其他特征呢？

And what about the other things that I would associate with, like, a normal my normal understanding of either a communist or socialist country?

比如高税收、完善的社会保障体系。

Like, high taxes, a big social safety net.

比如，这些事情在中国也都不太适用吗？

Like, none of those things particularly seem to apply in China either?

是的。

No.

完全不。

Not at all.

所以我的观点是，中国可能是世界上伪装成左翼政权的最右翼政权。

So I my view is that China is probably the most right wing regime in the world that is masquerading as a left wing regime.

你知道，一个社会主义政权应该做什么？

You know, what should a socialist regime do?

嗯，大概应该是向富人征税并帮助穷人，但中国的社会福利体系非常薄弱。

Well, probably tax the rich and give to the poor, and China has a pretty threadbare social welfare net.

中国没有财产税。

There's no property taxes in China.

所以，根本就没有财产税吗？

And so, you know, the There's no property taxes at all?

这非常有限。

It is pretty minimal.

他们实际上没能实施这一点。

They haven't really been able to implement this.

所以，你知道，世界上大多数人财富的主要来源是他们的房子。

So, you know, the main source of wealth for most people around the world is their home.

因此，本质上，中国没有财富税。

And so, essentially, there's no wealth tax in China.

相反，中国大部分税收来自消费税，而这当然是累退性的，因为穷人将收入中相对更高的比例用于消费，而富人则不然。

Rather, a lot of the taxation in China comes from consumption taxes, which, of course, is regressive in nature because the poor spend a relatively higher share of their income on consumption than the rich.

而且，这个国家还决定逮捕许多工会组织者。

And this is also a country that has decided to arrest a lot of union organizers.

它逮捕了许多马克思主义读书小组，还强制推行非常传统的性别角色，要求男性必须阳刚，女性必须埋葬自己的孩子。

It has arrested a lot of Marxist reading groups It enforces very traditional gender roles where the men have to be macho and the women have to bury their children.

我认为，中国在很多方面都像上世纪五十年代的艾森豪威尔时代的美国，排斥移民，专注于建设庞大的制造企业。

And there are a lot of ways in which I think that China feels like nineteen fifties Eisenhower America, which keeps out immigrants and just focuses a lot on building giant manufacturing companies.

在过去的几年里，我最喜欢习近平的一句话是：我们不应该建立一个大型福利体系。

And my favorite quote from Xi Jinping in the last couple of years is that we should not build a major welfare system.

否则，人们可能会变得懒惰。

Otherwise, people might grow lazy.

这简直就像八十年代的共和党政策。

It's so, like, eighties Republican.

这正是中国共产党听起来像罗纳德·里根的一个例子。

This is exactly an instance in which the Chinese Communist Party sounds like Ronald Reagan.

这太奇怪了。

It's so weird.

这很有趣，因为美国实际上在某些方面拥有一个相当健全的社会安全网，尤其是相比中国而言，但在许多地方，共产主义的幽灵依然是个禁忌。

It's so funny because, like, America is a country that honestly, like, I actually think we have, in some ways, a robust social safety net, like, particularly compared to China, but where the idea, the specter of communism in so many quarters is really, you know, taboo.

想象一个国家假装自己是社会主义者、共产主义者，实际上却是个秘密的共和党，这真是太滑稽了。

It's so funny to imagine a country pretending to be socialist, pretending to be communist, and being, like, secretly Republican.

说它本质上是个秘密的共和党，这只是我的美国视角，还是这种感觉确实合理？

Is is secretly Republican is that just, like, my American filter, or does that read seem right?

我敢肯定，在评论区会有一大堆人嘲笑我，说我中国不是社会主义。

I am sure that in the comments, there's going to be a bunch of people roasting me about the idea that China is not socialist.

每当我提出中国看起来相当右翼这个观点时，总有一群‘坦克人’会跑来评论说：丹，你根本不懂中国。

Every time I propose this idea that, actually, China looks pretty right wing, a bunch of tankies will show up in my comments to say that, Dan, you you know nothing about China.

首先，我承认中国是一个非常列宁主义的体系，共产党内部确实包含一些马列主义的核心内容。

Now first, I acknowledge that China is a very Leninist system, and there are, like, core parts of Marxism Leninism in the communist party.

列宁真正倡导的是国家控制经济的命脉部门。

What Lenin really advocated for was state control of the commanding heights of the economy.

而中国确实控制了经济的许多命脉部门。

And China definitely controls a lot of the commanding heights of the economy.

如果你看看许多对国家至关重要的战略行业，全部都是国有的。

If you take a look at a lot of strategic sectors, important sectors to the state, all of it is state owned.

比如电信公司、中国的T-Mobile、航空公司、石油公司。

So take a look at the telecommunications companies, the T Mobiles of China, the airline companies, the oil companies.

这些公司都是明确的国有企业，因此中国确实存在国家控制的成分。

All of these are actually explicitly state owned companies, and so there is an element of state control in China.

而且，还存在从上海等富裕省份向渭州等贫困省份进行财富再分配的机制。

And there is also an element of redistribution from wealthier provinces like Shanghai into poorer provinces like Weizhou.

但我认为，大部分情况下，如果你的税率很低，社会福利体系形同虚设，还逮捕马克思主义读书小组，那你就不配再自称马克思主义者了。

But I think that for the most part, if your taxes are low, if your social welfare net is threat bear, and if you're arresting a Marxist reading groups, then you don't get to call yourself Marxists anymore.

我的意思是，有趣的是，如果你想象一个国家追求低税收、低移民，但其对马克思主义的让步却是由国家决定企业的成败，并根据当权者认为正确的标准来重新分配国家资源。

I mean, what's what's funny to me is if you imagine a country that wants low taxes, low immigration, but their concession towards sort of Marxism would be the state should be deciding corporate winners and losers and redistributing state resources according to what whoever's in power thinks is correct.

这听起来像是特朗普主义。

It sounds like Trumpism.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实是个很好的观点。

That's actually a good point.

我认为，仅仅为马克思唱生日歌是不够的，但他们却能借此蒙混过关。

And I think it's not sufficient to sing happy birthday to Marx, but they kinda get away with it.

许多左翼人士会因为中国唱《国际歌》而给予他们认可。

And a lot of leftists, they'll give them credit because they sing the Internationale.

所以这是丹对2025年中国经济状况的看法。

So this is Dan's view of what China's like economically in 2025.

就像在美国，政客们嘴上说着一些理念，比如财政保守主义、民主等，实际上却置之不理。

The same way that in America, there are ideas our politicians pay lip service to while trampling, fiscal conservatism, democracy, etcetera.

在中国，共产主义和马克思主义是统治阶级高调庆祝却大多忽视的东西，同时他们还在想方设法在我们最擅长的运动——资本主义上超越美国。

In China, communism and Marxism are things that the ruling class loudly celebrates and mostly ignores, while finding inventive ways to outcompete America at our favorite sport, capitalism.

在中国生活，甚至可能比在这里更需要学会分辨标语和它们所描述的现实之间的差异。

To live in China, maybe even more than here, means to learn to notice the difference between the captions and the images they're meant to describe.

我们稍作短暂休息。

We're gonna take a short break.

回来后，丹将谈谈他认为这两个国家之间最实质性的差异。

And when we return, Dan's going to talk about the biggest actual difference he sees between these two countries.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

所以丹的核心理论，也是他在书中讨论最多的内容，是中美之间最大的差异在于治理国家的专业人士类型。

So Dan's big theory, the one he spends the most time discussing in his book, is that the largest difference between China and America lies in the kind of professional who runs the country.

丹说，与中国不同，美国是由政治家治理的国家。

Dan says unlike America, China is a country run by engineers.

字面意义上，中国在近几十年的某些时期，确实是直接由工程师治理的。

Very literally, China, at various points in the recent past, was governed directly by engineers.

从1980年开始，也就是邓小平从毛泽东手中接过国家权力的时候。

And from 1980 onwards, essentially when Deng Xiaoping took over the reins of the power of the state from Mao Zedong.

邓小平看到毛泽东时代留下的废墟——毛泽东通过文化大革命彻底摧毁了国家机器，于是他审视毛泽东，认为毛本质上是个浪漫主义者、诗人、军阀，而自己则必须完全反其道而行之。

Deng looked at the wreckage of the Mao years in which Mao had absolutely devastated the state through the Cultural Revolution, and Deng Xiaoping took a look at Mao, decided that Mao was primarily a romantic, a poet, a warlord, and that Deng should do absolutely the opposite of everything that Mao did.

那么，诗人的天然对立面是什么？

Now what is the natural opposite of a poet?

那肯定是工程师。

Well, it's definitely an engineer.

因此，邓小平决定提拔大量工程师进入共产党高层。

And so Deng Xiaoping decided to promote a lot of engineers into the top ranks of the Communist Party.

到2002年，也就是邓小平退出政坛之后，中共中央政治局常务委员会的九名成员，即共产党内最高决策层的所有成员，全部都有工程背景。

And by the year 2002, this was after Deng Xiaoping had left the scene, all nine members of the standing committee of the Politburo, which is the highest ruling echelon within the Communist Party, they were all trained in engineering.

这是一种非常苏联式的工程方式。

And this was engineering of a very Soviet sort.

他们接受的是水利工程师、电气工程师和土木工程师的训练。

They were trained as hydraulic engineers and electrical engineers and civil engineers.

我认为中国是一个我称之为工程型国家的国家，因为他们基本上把各种问题都当作工程任务来处理。

And I my contention is that China is a country I call the engineering state because they sort of treat all sorts of problems as engineering exercises.

首先，他们花了大量时间来改造物理环境。

So first, they spend a lot of time engineering the physical environment.

工程师喜欢在任何地方都建造东西。

Engineers like to build stuff absolutely everywhere.

我想说的是道路、桥梁、超大规模数据中心、燃煤电厂、太阳能、风能和输电线路，无处不在。

So I'm thinking about roads and bridges and hyperscalers and coal plants and solar, wind, transmission lines absolutely everywhere.

中国仍在大量建设高速铁路。

China's still building a lot of high speed rail.

他们宣布中国建成了世界上最高的桥梁。

They announced that China has built the world's highest bridge.

因此，每当经济下滑时，他们就会建造更多的大型项目，这某种程度上也是他们的刺激方案。

And so, you know, they kind of build more mega projects anytime the economy crumbles, and this is kind of their stimulus package as well.

与美国不同，美国的基础设施正在崩塌，新的公共项目稀少、昂贵且缓慢，而掌控中国的工程师们却一直在不断建设新事物，不受繁琐法律程序的束缚。

Unlike in America where our infrastructure crumbles, where new public projects are rare, expensive, and slow, the engineers who run China are always building something new, unencumbered by lawyerly red tape.

但丹表示，中国工程师的思维模式并不仅限于基础设施。

But Dan says that the engineering mindset in China isn't just applied to infrastructure.

你还能看到这种思维在政府对经济的调控中体现出来。

You see it in how the government engineers the economy too.

当丹在那里时，他目睹了习近平决定认为加密货币是个坏主意，于是开始激励科技公司投资于半导体等更有生产力的领域。

When Dan was there, he watched as Xi Jinping decided crypto was a bad idea, so and started incentivizing the tech companies to invest in more productive stuff like semiconductors.

丹说，掌控中国的工程师们不仅改造了物理世界和经济。

Dan says that the engineers who run China, they don't just engineer the physical world and the economy.

他们试图工程化管理的第三部分，实际上是国民本身。

The third part of the country they try to engineer is actually the citizenry itself.

从根本上说，我认为中国是由一群社会工程师构成的。

Most fundamentally, China, I think, is made up of social engineers.

他们不仅仅是土木工程师。

They're not just physical engineers.

他们也是社会工程师，这就是为什么我也花很多时间思考独生子女政策和清零政策，因为数字就直接写在名字里。

They're also social engineers, which is why I spend a lot of time thinking about the one child policy as well as zero COVID in which the number is right there in the name.

这些政策可能意味着什么，根本没有任何歧义。

There's no ambiguity about what these policies could possibly mean.

他们把人口以及更广泛的社会，当作另一种建筑材料，可以随意拆毁和重塑。

And they sort of treat the population as well as broader society as if it were just yet another building material to be torn down and remolded as they wish.

那么，这在多大程度上也与政府由工程师组成有关呢？这不仅仅关乎政治文化或政治体制，也不只是不同思想家在争论政治成功应该是什么样子，而是字面意义上，一个由工程师组成的政府，既懂得如何建设，也相信建设是好事。

And so, like, how much of it, though, is also about if you have a government staffed with engineers that is not just about the political culture or the political system or, you know, different thinkers making arguments about what political success should look like, But, literally, like, a government full of engineers is both going to know how to build things and have a belief that building things is good.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，确实存在这样一种情况：如果你在管理一座城市，或者在国有企业工作，中国政府部门的许多部分都在不断规划下一座大桥、下一个地铁站或下一条高铁线路，以至于当政治领导人一旦批准，就有大量可以立即动工的项目。

I think there's definitely an element in which if you are running a city, if you're part of a state owned enterprise, a lot of the parts of the Chinese government is just constantly making plans for the next big bridge or the next subway stop or the next high speed rail line, such that when the political leaders ever give their sign off, there's a lot of shovel ready projects that they are able to do.

因此，人们一直在持续规划这些事情。

And so people are planning for these sort of things all the time.

我认为这与美国形成了鲜明对比，在美国，决定进行基础设施建设需要花费很长时间。

I think that's a great contrast with The US where it takes a really long time to be able to decide to do infrastructure.

在美国国会，要通过大型基础设施法案需要大量的游说和推动。

It takes a lot of whipping in the US Congress in order to get big infrastructure bills passed.

而当你最终通过像‘为所有人建设宽带’这样的大型基础设施法案时——这是两党基础设施法案的主要倡议之一。

And by the time you pass something like a big infrastructure bill, like, you know, let's build some, you know, broadband for all, which is one of the big initiatives of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act.

等你真正决定要做的时候，却发现政府机构根本没有做足前期的测绘工作，无法推进这些项目。

By the time you actually decide to do it, it turns out that none of the government agencies have done sufficient mapping to do a lot of these projects.

因此，中国政府一直在进行更多的测绘工作。

And so, you know, the Chinese government is always doing more mapping.

他们始终在寻找新的项目来开展。

They're always on the lookout for new projects to do.

公务员系统实际上就在制定这类计划，而政治领导人只要觉得资金到位，就非常愿意批准这些计划，因为这些都是他们非常乐意提供给民众的成果。

The civil service actually makes these sort of plans, and the the political leaders are very inclined to sign off on these plans so long as they feel like they have the funds because this is something that they're really excited to offer to the people.

这在某种程度上是他们建立合法性的途径。

This is kind of the way for them to establish their legitimacy.

为什么加利福尼亚的加文·纽森，以及纽约州的霍楚尔州长不通过建设更好的地铁和更快的加州高速铁路来证明他们对发展的真正重视，从而建立自己的合法性呢？

Why doesn't Gavin Newsom of California, and why doesn't governor Hochul of New York try to establish their legitimacies by building better subways and building better California high speed rail to prove to the people that they're really interested in development.

我真希望更多的美国市长和州长能像过去那样，出席像布鲁克林大桥开通这样的剪彩仪式。

I really wish that more American mayors and governors were attending ribbon cutting ceremonies as they used to in the past with the opening of something like the Brooklyn Bridge.

这是我之前没注意到的另一件事。

This was something else I hadn't noticed.

我想不起来上一次看到美国政界人士参加剪彩仪式是什么时候了。

I can't remember the last time I saw an American politician at a ribbon cutting ceremony.

丹提到，在中国，监督成功的基础设施项目是任何政客提升国家政治地位的关键。

Dan writes about how in China, overseeing successful infrastructure projects is key to any politician rising in national political stature.

他谈到，在中国，你几乎不可能看到像乔·拜登这样的政客——一位长期在特拉华州任职，直到担任副总统乃至总统的参议员。

He talks about how in China, you never really expect to see a politician like Joe Biden, a senator from Delaware who really stayed most of his career in Delaware until assuming the vice presidency, then the presidency.

相反，他描述了有抱负的中国政客如何被党安排进行巡回任职。

Instead, he describes how ambitious Chinese politicians get essentially sent by the party on tour.

他们会先被派往国家偏远的农村省份，在那里任职数年。

They'll be placed for a few years in one of the country's more far flung rural provincial areas.

如果他们在那里能干得好，

If they can do a

就能在全国范围内得到提升。

good job there, then they can rise nationally.

而干得好意味着要建造一些规模大、成本高的项目，以带动当地经济。

And doing a good job means building something big and expensive that kickstarts the local economy.

中国的工程文化在许多美国常被忽视的偏远农村地区创造了大量发展和机遇。

China's engineering culture has produced tons of development and opportunity in the kinds of rural places that in America are often overlooked.

丹曾骑自行车穿越这些地区，从而更好地理解了中国。

Dan rode through some of these areas on bike, where he began to better understand China.

2021年，我拉了两个朋友一起去贵州西南部的山区进行一次长途骑行。

In the 2021, I scared up two friends with me to go to the Southwestern mountains of Guizhou province to do a big cycling trip.

我们骑行了大约600公里，持续了五天，主要穿行于贵州省。

We cycled about, I think, 600 kilometers over five days, mostly through the province of Guizhou.

贵州地形多山，交通相对不便，远离沿海，是中国第四贫困的省份。

Guizhou is heavily mountainous, relatively inaccessible, and far away from the coasts, and it is China's fourth poorest province.

我和朋友们惊讶又欣喜地发现，贵州的基础设施水平简直超乎想象。

And what my friends and I were amazed and delighted to find was that Guizhou's level of infrastructure was absolutely superb.

我们骑着车行驶在这些开放的道路和新建的高速公路上，这完全出乎我们的意料，简直是骑行者的天堂。

We were cycling on these sort of just open roads and new highways, which we didn't really expect to find, and it was absolutely a cyclist's dream.

直到后来，我才反思到，贵州拥有如此卓越的基础设施，这多么令人感到奇怪。

And it was only later on that I reflected on how strange it is that Guizhou has excellent levels of infrastructure.

贵州，中国第四贫穷的省份，拥有大约15个机场。

Guizhou, China's fourth province, has about 15 airports.

它拥有高速铁路。

It has high speed rail.

它拥有全球最高的45座桥梁。

It has 45 of the world's tallest bridges.

等等。

Wait.

所以是15个机场？

So 15 airports?

是的

Yes.

而且这些机场并不都是巨大的，贵州人口约四千万，和加州差不多，但远比加州贫穷，却拥有足够多的机场来服务这一庞大人口，尽管许多人常常负担不起机票。

And they're not all enormous, and Guizhou's population is about 40,000,000 people, which is about California's population, much, much poorer than California, but it has plenty of airports to serve a a substantial population even though many of these people aren't able often to be able to afford to fly.

但我认为令人震惊的是，中国第四贫穷的省份，其基础设施水平却远超富裕得多的纽约州或加州。

But I think it is really striking that China's fourth poorest province has much better levels of infrastructure than New York State or California, which are much richer by orders of magnitude.

所以我乘坐高铁从上海到贵州，大约花了七个小时。

So I was able to take the high speed rail from Shanghai to Guizhou, which took about seven hours.

加州的高铁现状为何几乎不存在？

How is the status of California high speed rail essentially nonexistent?

我觉得加州建设铁路网络的速度之慢，已经成了全国性的笑谈。

I think it is kind of this national joke how slowly California is actually trying to build its rail network.

那这种情况是怎么发生的？

And how, like, how does that happen?

中国是怎么这么轻松地建成了大量高铁，而加州却要花上那么久？

Like, how did China so easily pull off lots of high speed rail where California takes a very long time?

这些项目实际上是在差不多同一时间宣布的，我认为。

Like, these projects were actually announced, I believe, at about the same time.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为中国高铁和加州高铁之间的对比非常鲜明。

I think it is a pretty striking contrast between China's high speed rail and California high speed rail.

2008年，加州选民通过了一项公投，认为加州确实应该在两大经济中心——旧金山和洛杉矶之间建设高铁。

In the year 2008, voters in California approved a referendum to say that California really ought to build high speed rail between its two main economic hubs, San Francisco as well as Los Angeles.

就在同一年，中国实际上启动了第一条高铁线路——北京至上海高铁的建设。

And in the same year, China actually began construction of its first high speed rail system between Beijing and Shanghai.

巧合的是，如果你看一下这两条铁路线的长度，它们实际上差不多长。

And coincidentally, actually, if you take a look at the length of these two rail lines, they're actually about the same length.

但除此之外，两者的相似之处就结束了。

But that's where the similarities end.

因为加州高铁的情况是，只在沙漠中建了一小段，第一期工程预计在2032年开通，连接贝克斯菲尔德和默塞德这两个离旧金山和洛杉矶并不近的城市。

Because what has happened with California high speed rail, well, a very small stretch of it has been built in the desert, and the first segment is expected to open by the year 2032, connecting the cities of Bakersfield and Merced, which are not especially close to San Francisco and LA.

而目前，加州高速铁路的成本已攀升至超过1250亿美元。

And right now, the costs of California high speed rail is drifting northwards of a $125,000,000,000.

在中国，三年后他们实际上完成了高速铁路的建设。

And in China, three years later, they actually completed high speed rail.

京沪高铁于2011年开始运营。

They Beijing Shanghai started operating in 2011.

其官方宣称的建设成本约为400亿美元。

They built it at a stated cost of about $40,000,000,000.

据官方报道，在运营的头十年里，中国在京沪之间完成了约14亿人次的客运量。

And according to official news, over the first decade of its operation, China completed about 1,400,000,000 passenger trips between Beijing and Shanghai.

丹的观点是，美国政客有时会犯一个错误，只庆祝一个产品创造了多少就业机会。

Dan's point is that American politicians sometimes make this mistake of only celebrating how many jobs a product produces.

就业机会固然好，但政客们却忽略了这个项目是否最终完成，是否真正惠及公众。

Jobs are good, but the politicians will skip over whether the project was ever finished, whether it helped the public.

但丹说，中国那种对公共资金使用毫无限制的建设文化，也会带来严重问题。

But Dan says that China's culture of very unrestricted building with public money, that runs into serious problems too.