我们为什么不吃人？（经典）

所以，本质上，女王似乎给予了哥伦布及其同僚殖民者特殊许可，允许他们以对待其他人所不能的方式奴役和压迫食人族。

So basically, just the queen appears to be giving Columbus and his fellow colonizers special permission to subjugate and enslave cannibals in a way that he wouldn't be able to with other people.

因为‘食人族’这个概念某种程度上

Because cannibal is sort

与一种极致的残忍或所谓‘野蛮’的定义联系在一起。

of linked with a kind of a maximum cruelty or a definition of quote, unquote savagery.

是的。

Yes.

因此，他抵达后试图寻找黄金，因为同样地，他认为黄金存在于炎热的地方。

And so what ends up happening, he shows up trying to find gold because, again, he thinks you find gold in hot places.

但黄金的数量远不如他预期的那么多。

There's not as much gold as he was anticipating.

于是，由于找不到黄金，西班牙人开始四处寻找可以奴役的人。

And so since they're not finding gold, the Spaniards just start looking for people to enslave.

而这就是他们接下来要掠夺的资源。

And that will be the resource that they go after.

所以即使在箭头地区，他们也会把当地人称为食人族。

So now even when they're in Arrowhead Country, they'll just label people they're cannibals.

只要有人反抗，或者只要方便，他们就会用‘食人族’这个词。

Anytime someone resists them, anytime it's convenient, it's like this magic word, cannibal.

你只要称某人为食人族，就能剥夺他们的权利。

You call someone a cannibal, you can take their rights away.

但这里有个讽刺之处，对吧？在当时西班牙人看来，食人行为代表了人类最恶劣的一面。

But there's an irony here, right, which is that for those people in Spain at that time, cannibalism represented human beings at their worst.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

而对我们许多人来说，如今奴隶制才代表了人类最恶劣的一面。

And for us, many of us now, enslavement represents human beings at their worst.

是的。

Yes.

所以，是的。

So Yes.

这个想法是，如果我们怀疑人类在最恶劣的状态下行事，那么我们就会做出未来世代会认为是人类最恶劣行为的事情。

The idea was if we suspect the way the way from what you're telling me, the idea is they were like, if we suspect that human beings are being at their worst, we're gonna do the thing that future generations will think of as human beings at their worst.

没错。

Exactly.

这里其实还有另一个复杂的故事。

There's actually another complicating story here.

在整个过程中，欧洲人对食人行为着迷，但他们对食人行为的定义却以一种略有不同的形式呈现。

The whole time the Europeans are obsessed with cannibalism, they're pricing cannibalism just in a slightly different form.

哦。

Oh.

他们指控食人族所做的事情是仪式性食人。

So the thing they were accusing the cannibals of doing was ritual cannibalism.

就像我说，我吃掉你是因为我在战斗中获胜了，因为这象征着某种意义，因为我相信这样做能让我获得力量。

It's like, I eat you because I won in combat, because it symbolizes something, because I think that I get strength from doing it.

欧洲人所做的是一种医学性食人行为，即人们食用他人或人体部位，是因为他们认为这样做对健康有益。

What the Europeans have been doing was medical cannibalism, which is when you eat people or body parts because you think there's a medical benefit to it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从11世纪到17世纪，欧洲曾流行食用一种叫‘木米亚’的物质，这种物质由研磨成粉的木乃伊制成，据说对人体有益。

So there had been a trend from the eleventh century through the seventeenth century in Europe of eating something called mummia, which was a material made from ground up powdered mummies, which was supposed to be good for you.

他们已经获得了

They had gotten

关于来源的显而易见的问题。

Obvious question about the sourcing.

是的。

Yes.

这些木乃伊是道德获取的吗？

Are these ethically sourced mummies?

这些木乃伊并不是道德获取的。

These were not ethically sourced mummies.

这些木乃伊的来源极其不道德。

These were deeply unethically sourced mummies.

他们从埃及的坟墓中盗取木乃伊。

They were robbing mummies from Egyptian graves.

这表明这种产品非常珍贵，因为木乃伊的供应是有限的。

This suggests that this would be a very valuable product because there's a finite supply of mummies.

所以这确实是一种有价值的产品，但很快便成了一个问题，因为他们耗尽了有限的供应。

So it is a valuable product, and it quickly becomes a problem, which is that they exhaust the finite supply.

他们管这叫‘木乃伊峰值’吗？

Did they call it peak mummy?

没有。

No.

他们只是假装还有更多木乃伊，转而寻找最近去世的人。

They just pretended like they had more mummies and started finding other recently dead people.

这听起来我不太敢妄下结论。

That sounds I don't wanna go on a limb.

这听起来很糟糕。

That sounds bad.

确实很糟糕。

It was bad.

所以他们有加速尸体防腐处理的配方。

So they had recipes to speed up the mummification process of corpses.

我也不知道该怎么念这个。

There's a I don't know how to pronounce this.

有一本17世纪的书叫《伦敦药典》，其中包含了一种制作方法的配方。

There's a seventeenth century book called London Pharmacopeiae, which includes a recipe describing how to do this.

我在舒茨的书中读到过，这个配方建议使用一名24岁、红发、被绞死的男人的尸体来制作木乃伊。

I've read about it in Schutz's book, but the recipe recommends that, quote, the mummy be made of the cadaver of a redheaded man, aged 24, who'd been hanged.

尸体需在空气中浸泡在冷水中24小时，之后将皮肤切成块，并撒上没药和芦荟的粉末。

The corpses to lie in cold water in the air for twenty four hours, after which the flesh was cut in pieces and sprinkled with a powder of myrrh and aloes.

然后将其浸泡在酒精和松节油的混合液中24小时，悬挂12小时，再用该混合液熏制24小时，最后悬挂晾干。

This was soaked in the spirit of wine and turpentine for twenty four hours, hung up for twelve hours, and again, smoked in the spirit mixture for twenty four hours, and finally hung up to dry.

当时有没有人知道这些人为什么被处以绞刑？

Was there a sense about why these people were being hanged?

还是说，我们的想法是，既然处决了这么多人，随便抓几个红头发的就行？

Or is the idea that we're hanging so many people, we can just grab some of the ones that happen to have red hair?

我猜是后者，不过我也不明白，为什么从埃及木乃伊有什么特别之处，会推论到红发人也有同样的特别之处。

My guess is the latter, although I'm also not sure how you get from there's something special about an Egyptian mummy to whatever is special about an Egyptian mummy is also special about a red haired person.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

除非，红发的人其实很稀少？

Except for, like, maybe red haired people were rare?

但你知道的，从非禁忌的角度来看，这似乎是个很大的区别。

But, you know, in a non taboo sense, that's the big that seems like a big distinction.

对吧？

Right?

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

我们杀人是为了吃掉他们，还是在对尸体做些奇怪的事？

Are we killing people so we can eat them, or are we doing weird things to corpses?

是的。

Yeah.

我得说，凭我内心那种对禁忌的直觉，为了吃人而杀人，比对尸体做奇怪的事要恶劣得多。

And I have to say, in my whatever internal taboo radar I have inside of me, killing people so you can eat them feels way worse than doing weird things to corpses.

比如，如果他们被

Like, if they were

吊着，作为一个不想被杀的人

hanging As someone who does not want to be killed

以便被人吃掉，

so he can be eaten,

我完全同意这一点。

I absolutely agree with that.

而且我要说，在你的播客里，几百年后，如果我的遗体发生了什么，我觉得这根本不算什么大事。

And I'll say, on your podcast right now, you know, hundreds of years from now, if something happens to what remains of my corpse, it doesn't seem like that big a deal.

这看起来完全没问题。

It seems completely fine.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我不

So I don't

完全没问题。

Completely know fine.

你已经录下来了，PJ。

You're on the record, PJ.

他们看起来完全没问题。

It seems of them completely fine.

他们将会

They're gonna

不得不把你埋在一个没有标记的地方。

have to bury you in an unmarked location.

他们可以直接把我扔进海里。

They can just throw me in the ocean.

好的。

Okay.

所以回想一下奥托的问题，为什么我们不能吃人？

So remembering Otto's question, why can't we eat people?

我觉得可可豆故事的妙处在于，它就像我们对食人行为的禁忌一样。

I think what's nice about the carob story is it's kind of like the fact that we have this taboo against cannibalism.

无论如何，我们都会有这种禁忌。

We would have the taboo anyway.

我对这一点非常有信心。

I feel very confident about that.

但我们用来描述它的语言，比如我们称食人者为‘食人者’，以及汉娜和我脑海中浮现的探险家与沸腾的大锅、周围有岛民环绕的画面，这些都源于那个历史时刻。

But the language we have for it, like the fact that we call cannibals cannibals, and the mental image that's in Hannah's mind and my mind of the, like, explorer and the steaming cauldron with islanders going around him, like, that comes from this historical moment.

比如，在1493年，哥伦布已经完成征服这片土地、消灭大量人口的任务之后，仍然有理由进行政治宣传。

Like, there there was a reason to have political propaganda in 1493, well after Columbus sort of completed his mission of taking over this land and wiping out lots of people.

我们只剩下这个小小的遗迹，我觉得这很有趣。

We're left with this little artifact, and I just find that interesting.

总之，这就是我们的第一个故事。

Anyway, that is our first story.

在进入下一个故事之前，我想说一下，本周我不会花太多时间讨论生存性食人行为。

Before we go to the next story, I just wanna say that one aspect of cannibalism I'm not gonna spend very much time on this week is survival cannibalism.

这是指人们在极端环境下被迫吃人的情况。

That's when people eat people because they're forced to by extreme circumstance.

在美国，我们有唐纳大队，他们在19世纪时听信了所谓穿越俄勒冈小径的捷径，结果被困在严酷的冬季中。

In America, we have the Donner Party, who in the eighteen hundreds took what they were told was a shortcut on the Oregon Trail, then were stuck camping through a very harsh winter.

他们吃掉了部分死去同伴的尸体。

They ate some of their dead.

在20世纪70年代的乌拉圭，曾发生过一支橄榄球队的飞机在山区坠毁的著名事件。

In Uruguay, in the nineteen seventies, there was very famously that rugby team whose plane crashed in the mountains.

那些幸存者也吃掉了部分死去同伴的尸体。

Those survivors ate some of their dead as well.

显然，这些是关于食人行为的生动例子。

Obviously, those are vivid examples of cannibalism.

对我来说，最有趣的是，在像橄榄球队这样的案例中，我们会说他们得到了谅解，但同时我们也会因为他们的被迫行为而标记他们。

For me, what I find most interesting is that in cases like the rugby team, we'll say that they get a pass, but then we will also mark them for what they were forced to do.

就好像我们已经决定他们现在属于另一个类别了。

Like, it's almost like we've decided that they are in a different category now.

我之所以不多谈生存性食人，是因为我认为这在某种程度上是奥托问题的一个例外。

The only reason I'm not spending much time on survival cannibalism is I think it's sort of an exception to Otto's question.

据我所知，规则是：如果你快饿死了，而有人已经死了，你就可以吃他们。

Like, as far as I can tell, the rule goes, if you're starving and people are dead, you can eat people.

但这个事实从此将主导你维基百科页面的全部内容。

It's just that that fact will now dominate your Wikipedia page for the rest of time.

所以食人行为在某些情况下可能是可以接受的，但仍然会臭名昭著。

So cannibalism is might be acceptable under certain circumstances, but it's still gonna be infamous.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

而且，说真的，这有点奇怪，因为这些人经历了可怕的遭遇后活了下来。

And, like, it's sort of weird because those people have survived terrible things.

我的意思是，我理解他们为何因生存方式而声名狼藉，但确实，这种污名他们似乎永远都摆脱不了。

And it's like I mean, I understand why they are infamous for the way they survived, but, like, yeah, it's just a mark that I don't think they ever get to get around.

我们会用是否食人来评判他们所经历的遭遇有多可怕。

And we'll use cannibalism to judge the terribleness of the thing they survived.

对。

Right.

那里的情况有多糟？

How bad was it up there?

糟到他们不得不吃人。

It was so bad they had to eat people.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你几乎觉得，这还挺搞笑的。

And you almost like, it was funny.

我正在读关于唐纳大队的故事，想决定要不要把它包含进来，于是我就看了很多关于唐纳大队的资料。

I was reading I was trying to decide whether to include the Donner Party story in this, and I read a lot about the Donner Party story.

除了他们吃人的事实之外，还有很多故事，但我也明白，我的大脑也会这样。

And it's like, there's a lot of story there besides that fact, but I also understand my brain does it too.

我的大脑就像唐纳大队一样，吃人。

My brain is just like Donner Party eating people.

就是这样。

That's it.

是的。

Yeah.

也许是你大脑里那个小孩的部分，对吧？它对这种我们不会做的事着迷。

And maybe it's that little kid part of your brain, right, that's, like, fascinated by this thing that we don't do.

所以，每当有故事讲到有人做了这种事，自然比单纯说有人进雪地里死了要有趣得多。

So, of course, anytime there's a story about someone doing the thing, that's much more interesting than just like someone went into the snow and died.

是的。

Yeah.

这个故事中也很有趣的是，即使过了这么久，当你阅读相关记载时，文字的风格会有所不同——比如，有人读过一本书，书里提到一条捷径，而这条捷径却被送错了地方。

It's also interesting in the story because, like, there's even this much time later, when you read an an account of it, the writing will be one way where it's like, you know, they've read this book, and the book suggested a shortcut, and the shortcut's sent to the wrong place.

这属于一种较为浅层的细节描述。

And it's sort of one level of detail.

但一旦进入食人部分，描述就变得极其详细，而且更加贴近当时的情境：有人声称自己没这么做，但后来我们发现他确实这么做了。

And then once it gets into the cannibalism sections, it gets so much more detailed and so much more, like, at the time, this person claims that they didn't do it, but later we found out they did do it.

但有些部分几乎带有了流言蜚语的色彩——信息是如何流传出来的变得至关重要，你只是突然意识到：哦，我们对这件事着迷不已。

But some it almost takes on the feeling of gossip where how the information got out becomes very important, and you just realize, like, oh, we are fascinated by this.

但是，PJ，为了听众着想，你详细解释了如何制作木乃伊。

But, PJ, in the interest of listener service, you explained in some detail how to make mummiya.

对。

Yes.

你也有一个唐纳大队的食谱吗？

Do you have a Donner Party recipe too?

也？

Too?

天哪。

Oh my god.

说实话，关于唐纳大队，我想说的是。

It doesn't seem like honestly, here's what I will say about the Donner Party.

唐纳大队故事中最引人入胜的地方，不是关于人肉的烹制。

The most fascinating thing about the Donner Party story is not about the preparation of humans.

而是这一点，我以前并不知道。

It's that and I didn't know this.

他们迷路的原因是，当时有大批人前往西部，而当时存在一个专门向他们出售指南书的产业。

The reason they got lost is that there's all these people who are going out west, and there was, like, a cottage industry of people who were selling them guidebooks.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有个家伙本质上是个骗子，他写了一本指南书，大概是这样的：你要去西部？

And there was this guy who was essentially a huckster who wrote a guidebook that's like, so you're going out west?

这就是方法。

Here's how to do it.

其他人都不会告诉你的秘密是，我发现了一条捷径。

And what the other guys won't tell you is I found a secret shortcut.

哦，就像去明星家的路线图一样。

Oh, it's like maps to the stars' houses.

是的。

Yes.

但这张去明星家的路线图其实是一张糟糕的地图，他本人根本没亲自试过。

Except for this map to the stars' house was a bad map that he had not actually tried himself.

在出版这本书后，他才独自骑马试了一次。

After publicizing the book, he tried it once just like on a horse by himself.

所以，没有任何一辆马车曾尝试过他所说的简单路线。

And so no one in a wagon had tried to do what he said was easy to do.

当他们一路按照书中描述的捷径前进时，逐渐意识到这条路有多糟糕，而他为了宣传，早已提前出发，并在树上钉了鼓励人们继续跟随他路线的纸条。

And the whole time they're proceeding on this shortcut that they've read about in his book, and they're realizing how bad it is, he had gone out ahead as promotion and like, nailed to the trees notes encouraging people to keep following his path.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

于是情况越来越糟，他们开始意识到自己处境的严重性。

And so things are getting worse and worse, and they're beginning to understand the size of their predicament.

然后他们发现了这些充满活力的便条，写着：继续前进。

And then they're finding these, like, cheerful notes being like, keep on going.

这是‘甜甜圈派对’故事中最精彩的部分。

That's the best part of the Donut Party story.

这正是从一个为推广自己书籍而提供错误建议的人那里收到糟糕建议的残酷现实，这感觉像是一个非常现代的问题。

It's just the grimness of having received bad advice from someone promoting their book, which feels like a very modern problem.

幸存者们立刻去了Goodreads.com。

The survivors immediately went on goodreads.com.

一星。

One star.

不推荐。

Do not recommend.

我的意思是，我喜欢汉娜的孩子问‘为什么我们不能吃人’这个想法。

Well, I mean, I like the idea that Hannah's kid asks, why can't we eat people?

而你的回答至少会包含一个食谱。

And that your answer would include at least one recipe.

是的。

Yes.

至少一个食谱。

At least one recipe.

在结束之前实际上还会再出现另一个食谱。

There will actually be another recipe before the end of this.

剧透。

Spoiler.

好的。

Okay.

所以我说的不是生存性食人，除了那个。

So I'm not talking about survival cannibalism, except for that.

另一种类型的食人行为，是我读了更多关于食人行为的资料以及专家写的书籍后注意到的：我发现学术界普遍不太愿意谈论谋杀型食人行为，比如杰弗里·达莫那种风格的食人行为。

The other sort of cannibalism the the thing that I noticed reading more about cannibalism and reading these books by experts about cannibalism is that I have noticed a trend among the academics, which is that they don't like talking about murderous cannibalism, like Jeffrey Dahmer style cannibalism.

在我读的比尔·舒特的书里，他特意说明他不会讨论像埃德·盖恩那样的连环杀手吃人事件。

In the Bill Shutt book I read, he goes out of his way to say he is not gonna talk about, like, your Ed Gynes, like, your your serial killers who ate people.

他只是顺带提到了一个德国人，曾持续性地吃掉过一个人。

He he has a passing reference to the one German guy who contentially ate a person.

那个著名的德国人。

The famous German guy.

我对这个人有些问题想问你。

Who I have questions for you about.

但他几乎不想把这些案例纳入他的食人行为民族志研究中。

But he's like he almost, like, doesn't wanna count them in his cannibalism ethnography.

为什么？

Why?

因为这些是例外情况吗？

Because they're outliers?

它们太不寻常了？

They're too unusual?

有趣的是，

Well, here's what's interesting.

他说这会对受害者不敬，但在我看来，这正是禁忌所在。

He says it would be disrespectful to the victims, but to me, I'm like, but that's the taboo.

不是吗？

Isn't it?

这就像是你走到高压电围栏前，却选择绕开它。

That's where you're like, even in walking up to the electric fence, I'm gonna step away from the electric fence.

我不想思考这件事中最核心的部分。

I don't wanna think about the part of this that is sort of at the core of it.

对。

Right.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我想谈谈那位德国食人者。

So I wanna talk about the German cannibal.

这实际上是我想要告诉你的第二个故事，我会称之为审判。

That's actually the second story I wanna tell you, which I'm gonna call the trial.

我觉得我应该提醒一下，如果孩子们在听这一集，这部分可以跳过。

I feel like I should say, if kids are listening to this episode, this would be a good part to skip.

这些内容我不希望出现在我13岁时的脑子里。

This is not stuff I would have wanted in my 13 year old brain.

但就我而言，最能引发我对食人禁忌及其成因思考的杀人食人故事，就是德国食人者阿尔明·迈瓦斯的故事。

But to me, kind of the most interesting murderous cannibal story when it comes to just thinking about the cannibalism rule and why we have it, is the story of the German cannibal, Armin Meivas.

他是一名德国电脑维修技工。

He was a German computer repair technician.

他曾在名为‘食人咖啡馆’的食人主题论坛上发帖，表示自己在寻找一个愿意被杀死并被食用的男性。

He went on a cannibalism message board called The Cannibal Cafe, and said he was looking for a man who wanted to be killed and consumed.

很少有人回复这则广告。

Few people respond to the ad.

他确实见了一些人，但他们都最终退缩了，而他也允许他们退出。

Actually meets some of them, who all eventually back out, and he lets them back out.

但后来有一个人表示愿意配合，于是迈韦斯杀了他并吃掉了他。

But then there's one man who says he wants to go through with it, and so Mai Vez kills him and eats him.

他们全程拍摄了整个过程，包括那个人似乎同意所有即将发生事情的片段。

And they film the whole thing, including the part where the guy seems to be agreeing to everything that's gonna happen.

所以他被抓获了。

So he's caught.

案件在德国接受了审判。

It goes to trial in Germany.

他被判定犯有德国版的过失杀人罪，被判刑约八年。

He was found guilty of Germany's version of manslaughter, and gets a sentence of about eight years.

根据当时的报道，德国人对这一判决感到震惊。

According to reports at the time, Germans were shocked by the sentence.

他们认为这个刑罚太轻了。

They thought it was way too light.

而且，梅韦茨声称自己出狱后仍幻想再次犯罪，这很可能也没有帮助。

It also probably didn't help that Maywez was saying that he still had fantasies of re offending once he got out of jail.

因此，检察官要求重审。

And so the prosecutors call for a retrial.

他们让法庭认真审视这段录像。

And they get the court to, like, really pay attention to the tape.

有趣的是，在德国，根据德国法律对谋杀的定义，凶手寻求性满足是构成谋杀的一个因素。

And interestingly, in Germany, the way German law defines murder, one of the things that can make a killing a murder is that the killer was was looking for sexual gratification.

于是，检方在这里提出了这一观点。

And so they pushed that idea here.

他们说：‘如果你看这段视频，很明显，这关乎性满足。’

They're like, if you look at the video, clearly, is about sexual gratification.

这段视频曾被纳入第一次审判。

The video had been included in the first trial.

但这次，法庭重新审视后表示：是的，这符合德国法律中的谋杀定义。

But this time, the court looks at it, they say, yes, this is Germany's version of murder.

他被判了终身监禁。

He's getting a life sentence.

但我觉得，你可以从这个案例中看到，这实际上是一个国家在努力界定：我们允许成年人之间相互同意的行为边界在哪里，并意识到——哦，我们显然仍然有一个‘食人’的底线。

But I think you could look at this, and you could say, what you're actually seeing is a country trying to decide, like, what are the limits of things we'll allow consenting adults to do to each other, and realize like, oh, we definitely still have a cannibalism test.

不过，也可以从同意框架的角度来理解这个案件。

Although there's there's a way of thinking about that case in a consent based framework.

对吧？

Right?

你可以这样想：另一个当事人并没有真正获得知情同意。

You can think about that and say like, well, this other person, it wasn't truly informed consent.

如果一个人神志清醒，是无法对这种事情表示同意的。

That's not something one can consent to if one is in one's right mind.

因此，这种同意是无效的。

Therefore, that consent is not valid.

因此，我们将以谋杀罪起诉。

Therefore, we're gonna prosecute it as murder.

这与另一个问题不同：如果我们认为这确实是谋杀，那么他是否还做了比谋杀更恶劣的事情？

That's separate from the question of, did he do something extra wrong beyond committing murder if we think it was murder?

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果他约了这个人，达成协议要杀掉他并吃掉他，然后杀了他但没吃，刑罚会一样吗？

Like, would the sentence be the same if he had met up with this guy, made this agreement to kill him and eat him, and killed him, and then not eaten him?

你觉得会一样吗？

Do you think it would have been the same?

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这才是罪行所在。

To me, that's the crime.

对吧？

Right?

真正的罪行是杀人本身。

Is the actual killing.

对。

Right.

还有后来发生的事，你知道的。

And what happens later, you know.

我们有关于亵渎尸体的法律，还有那些其他法律。

We have laws about desecrating a corpse or something, and there are those other laws.

但归根结底，真正令人震惊的是谋杀本身，尽管另一部分——食人行为——才是让我们所有人深思、并让我们知道这件事的原因。

But, you know, mainly to the extent which it's outrageous, the murder is the outrage, even though the other part, the cannibal part, is what makes us all think about it and the reason we know about it.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

但对我来说，我们大多数人对食人行为产生的反感，并不明显是错误的。

But it's not obvious to me that that revulsion that most of us have at the idea of cannibalism, it's not obvious to me that that's wrong.

对？

Right?

就像

Like,

这可能是一种我们应该学习并尊重的道德直觉。

that might be a moral intuition we should learn from and respect.

尊重一种道德直觉的一种方式就是制定相关法律来禁止它。

And one way to respect a moral intuition is to have laws against it.

好吧。

So okay.

所以一方面，你是在说，一旦你死了，如果未来社会吃掉你的遗体，这也不是什么天大的事。

So on the one hand, it's like you're saying once you're dead, if some future society eats your corpse, it's not the biggest deal in the world.

但另一方面，你也在说，如果我们对食人行为有一种道德上的反感，我们大概应该遵循这种感觉，并为此制定法律。

But you're also saying that if we have a feeling a moral intuition that cannibalism is wrong, we should probably follow that feeling and create laws around it.

也就是说，你在食人问题上持两种立场。

Like, where you're both sides in cannibalism.

我确实有点这样，因为我对这种禁忌的存在有着双重反应。

I am a little bit because I'm having a double reaction to the existence of a taboo.

对吧？

Right?

所以我的第一反应是，哦，这里有一个禁忌，我们被某种超越理性共识和不伤害他人原则的东西所引导。

And so my first reaction is to be like, oh, there's a taboo here where we're being guided by something besides our rational sense of consent and not harming people.

对吧？

Right?

这种反应的一部分，有点儿迷信。

Part of this reaction is, like, a little bit superstitious.

对吧？

Right?

所以我的第一反应是试图识别出这种迷信。

So my first reaction is to kind of, like, try to identify the superstition.

但我的第二反应是，从某种意义上说，迷信也有其道理。

But my second reaction is to be like, well, there is something to be said for superstition in that sense.

禁忌也有其可取之处。

There is something to be said for taboo.

当我思考这个问题时，仅仅因为我承认这是一种禁忌，并不意味着我想消除这个禁忌或消除所有禁忌。

And and when I think about it, just because I acknowledge that it is a taboo doesn't mean I wanna get rid of that taboo or get rid of all taboos.

我认为我喜欢把食人作为禁忌来思考的原因，即使这可能有点荒谬，是因为在这一点上，我最确信它可能是‘自然的’。

And I think what the reason I like thinking about cannibalism as a taboo, even though maybe it's silly, is because it's the one where I'm actually most convinced that it might be, like, natural.

我觉得是哥伦布塑造了我们用来描述食人行为的语言，以及我们脑海中关于食人的卡通化形象。

Like, I think Columbus informed the language we use for cannibalism and, like, the cartoon images in our head we use for cannibalism.

但我想，无论人类社会如何多样，无论它们如何构建自身，大多数社会如果真把禁忌写下来（虽然它们通常不会），食人几乎都会被列入其中。

But, like, I think it's a rule that as many different human societies could flourish and as many ways they could construct themselves, like, most of them, when they if they wrote down their taboos, which they wouldn't, but if they did, cannibalism was one of them.

所以我喜欢思考这个问题，因为它几乎像是与生俱来的，但你也能看到它是如何通过文化传递的。

So I think I just like thinking about it because it almost feels hardwired, but then you can also see where it's culturally transmitted.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种可能误导你的启发式方法。

And this is a heuristic that can lead you astray.

对吧？

Right?

你可以这么说，我成长在一个认为奴隶制是可以接受的世界里，我观察其他社会，发现奴隶制遍布全球，而且有着悠久的历史，所以这一定是一种本能的感觉。

Like, you can say, like, I've grown up in a world where, you know, slavery is considered okay, and I'm looking at other societies, and it seems like there's slavery all over the world, and there's a long history of slavery, so this must be a natural feeling.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Like Right.

这是一种会误导你的思维方式。

That that's a that's a way of thinking that can lead you astray.

但显然，关键在于我们无法确定。

But, obviously, the point is there's no way to be sure.

对吧？

Right?

这正是哲学家们讨论的问题。

This is what philosophers talk about.

这正是那个想法，即哪些在我看来极其明显的事情实际上可能是错误的？

This is, right, the idea of, like, which of these things that seem really obvious to me are actually kind of wrong?

你无法确定那些对你来说显而易见的事情实际上没有错。

And there's no way to be sure that the things that feel obvious to you are not, in fact, wrong.

我对食人行为相当确定。

I feel pretty sure about cannibalism.

很多

A lot

多年来，很多人对很多事情都相当确信。

of people have felt pretty sure about a lot of things over the years.

广告后，我们将讲述巴布亚新几内亚的一个谜团，它可能让我们质疑一些自以为确信无疑的事情。

After the break, a mystery in Papua New Guinea that might make us question some of the things we're pretty sure we're pretty sure about.

关于远征的故事。

The story of the foray.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

我们来到了第三个，也是最后一个故事——葬礼。

We've reached our third and final story here, the funeral.

凯莱法，我直接念给你听我为这个故事写的不简短的介绍。

Kelefa, I'm just going to read you my not short introduction to this one.

我准备好听了。

I'm ready to hear it.

好的。

Okay.

在巴布亚新几内亚岛上，有一个名叫福雷的人群。

On the island of Papua New Guinea, there's this small group of people called the Foray.

福雷人有数万人之多，多年来几乎从未与外界接触过。

The Foray are a group in the tens of thousands, who for years had been almost entirely uncontacted by outsiders.

他们生活在偏远的东部高地。

They live in the remote Eastern Highlands.

想象一片绿意盎然的连绵山丘。

Picture a dense landscape of green hills.

福雷人与西方世界很少有接触。

The foray have few encounters with the Western world.

二十世纪三十年代，他们与一位澳大利亚淘金者发生了冲突。

There's a run-in with an Australian gold prospector in the nineteen thirties.

四十年代，据说有一架二战战斗机在他们附近坠毁，这一定是一段疯狂的经历。

In the forties, apparently, one World War two fighter plane crashes near them, which must have been an insane experience.

但他们主要还是被孤立，直到五十年代，人类学家开始对福雷人的生活方式产生浓厚兴趣。

But they're mainly left alone until the nineteen fifties, when anthropologists start to really get curious about how the foray live.

当人类学家带着问题到来时，他们发现福雷人中竟有他们自己的人。

And as the anthropologists arrive with their questions, they learn the foray have one of their own.

福雷人告诉人类学家，他们的族人正在大量死亡，而且是以一种极其可怕的方式。

The foray tell the anthropologists that their people are dying in large numbers, and in this very scary way.

有一种被称为库鲁的神秘现象。

There's a mysterious phenomenon called kuru.

福雷人认为这是一种诅咒。

The foray think it's a curse.

人类学家则认为这是一种疾病。

The anthropologists think it's a disease.

西方媒体得知此事后，开始称它为‘笑病’。

The Western media outlets hear about it, and they start calling it laughing sickness.

库鲁病主要影响儿童和女性。

Kuru mostly affects children and women.

只有大约百分之二的病例出现在成年男性身上。

Something like only two percent of cases were found in adult males.

感染库鲁病后，第一阶段是走路开始变得摇晃不稳。

When you get kuru, the first stage is that you begin to walk in a wobbly way.

你会难以说出一些熟悉的词语。

You struggle to pronounce some familiar words.

这让我感觉有点像在婚礼上喝醉了。

It sounds to me a little bit like being too drunk at a wedding.

下一阶段就开始变得可怕了。

The next phase is where it begins to get scary.

你会颤抖、发冷、起鸡皮疙瘩，然后开始大笑。

You shake, you shiver, you have goosebumps, and you start to laugh.

并不是因为有什么好笑的。

Not because anything's funny.

这些是痉挛。

These are spasms.

突如其来的、无法控制的大笑发作，而且你无法停止。

Huge, uncontrollable bouts of laughter that come out of nowhere, and which you cannot stop.

到了这个时候，你知道自己得了库鲁病，也知道这意味着你将死去。

At this point, you know you have Karru, and you know that that means you're going to die.

你还能活多久因人而异。

How much time you have left ranges.

有些人能与疾病共存两个月，有些人则能长达三年。

Some people live with the disease for two months, some people as long as three years.

但没有人能康复。

But no one recovers.

每个人都会进入最后阶段。

Everyone arrives at the final stage.

在最后阶段，你甚至连坐起来都困难。

In the final stage, you struggle even to sit up.

你可能无法说话。

You may not be able to talk.

你意识清醒，但似乎并不在场。

You're conscious, but you don't seem to be present.

你最后失去的能力之一是吞咽能力。

One of the last things you lose is your ability to swallow.

食物和水。

Food, water.

如果你们是外族人，深爱你的人会出于怜悯，用枕头捂死你，以免你饿死。

This is the point where, if you're foray, the people who love you will smother you to death, out of mercy, so that you don't starve.

但库鲁病作为一种疾病，其表现方式与任何人曾见过的任何疾病都不同。

But if kuru was a disease, it didn't function like any disease anyone had ever seen.

它似乎并不具有传染性。

It didn't seem to be contagious.

你可以坐在一个死于库鲁病的人旁边，自己却不会被感染。

You could sit with a person dying of kuru and not catch it yourself.

但当福雷人迁移到与其他邻近群体共同生活时，库鲁病有时也随之而来。

But when the foray moved in with other groups living near them, sometimes kuru came with them.

在五十年代，西方人猜测库鲁病可能是遗传性的。

In the fifties, Westerners were guessing that kuru might be genetic.

如果是这样，那它是一种近期的突变，因为福雷人告诉他们，这种现象是相对较新的。

If so, it was a recent mutation, because the foray told them this phenomenon was relatively new.

它可能只从1910年代左右才开始出现。

It may have only been happening since the nineteen tens.

曾经有一种解释，那是一个谣言，没有人愿意把它写下来。

There had been one explanation that had been sort of a rumor that no one seemed to want to commit to writing.

在六十年代末，有两篇论文提出假设，认为福雷人可能是通过食人行为感染库鲁病的。

In the late sixties, two papers were published hypothesizing that the foray may be contracting Kuru through cannibalism.

福雷人会食用他们的死者。

The foray ate their dead.

并不总是，不是一直如此。

Not always, not all the time.

但就像你会告诉伴侣你希望被埋葬还是火化一样，在福雷社会中，你会告诉伴侣你希望被埋葬、放在森林里，还是由家人食用。

But in the same way that you tell your partner whether you want to be buried or cremated, in foray society, you would tell your partner if you wanted to be buried, left out in the forest, or consumed by your family.

这来自一位名叫杰罗姆·T.的人类学家的论文。

This is from a paper by an anthropologist named Jerome T.

惠特菲尔德，关于一位选择被食用的福雷人的经历。

Whitfield, about what happened to a foray person who chose to be consumed.

引述：逝者的头部被放在火上烧掉毛发，然后用竹刀剥离肌肉。

Quote, The head of the deceased was placed over a fire to burn off the hair, and then it was defleshed with a bamboo knife.

用石头在头骨顶部打一个洞，由一位年长的女性逐渐取出大脑，她的手会用蕨类植物包裹。

A hole was made in the top of the skull using a stone, and the brain was gradually removed by one of the older women, whose hand would be wrapped in ferns.

然后将组织与蕨类混合，放入两到三个竹筒中烹煮。

The tissue was then mixed with ferns and placed in bamboo tubes, normally two or three, and cooked.

引述结束。

End quote.

对于那些被食用的对亚人，头部和大脑通常保留给女性，但女性有时会带孩子参加葬礼仪式，并与他们分享食物。

For the foray who were eaten, the head and the brains were typically reserved for women, but women would sometimes bring their children to the funerary rite, and share food with them.

这背后有一种某种美好的东西。

There's something something beautiful about that.

这让我感到惊讶。

That's what surprises me.

这其实是，你知道的，一方面你可以把它和吃胎盘的传统相比较，对吧？

It's it's really you know, it's it's you compare it to other rites on the one hand to eating the placenta, right?

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种正在被一些人重新复兴的传统。

Which is a tradition that some people are reviving.

或者甚至像守灵仪式，如果你从未参加过开放式棺材的守灵，那会有点奇怪。

Or even to something like a wake, where if you've never been to an open casket wake, it's a little bit strange.

但没错，这似乎是一种极其尊重遗体的方式。

But yes, this seems like an incredibly respectful way of honoring a body.

对吧？

Right?

这不是把尸体当作肉来处理。

It's not treating a body as meat.

没错。

No.

而且这很有趣。

And it it's funny.

我假设，任何实行食人行为的社会，都是因为对尸体缺乏尊重。

My assumption is that any society that's practicing cannibalism, it's because of a lack of respect for the body.

但这种做法似乎源于对尸体极大的尊重。

But this seems like it comes from a place of utmost respect for a body.

从对雅人的角度来看，如果你爱一个人，首先，被你所爱的人吃掉，总比被虫子和蛆虫啃食要好，而如果你被埋在地下或遗弃在外，就会发生那种情况。

And from the foray's perspective, if you love someone, first of all, it would be better to be consumed by the people who love you than by worms and maggots, which is like what's gonna happen if you're in the ground or left out.

但同时，他们认为，通过食用逝者，或许能吸收的不是身体部位，而是逝者的一些性格特质，或者他们的灵魂能得到某种保护。

But, also, they felt that by consuming the person, they might be consuming, like, not parts like body parts, but, like, aspects of the person's personality might transfer them, or their soul might be protected in some way.

也就是说，他们似乎有一种保护生命的感觉，正是这种感觉促使他们做出在我们文化中被视为对生命极度不尊重的行为。

Like, it it feels like they have a sense of protecting life, and it's causing them to do this thing that, in our culture, is associated with, you know, a deep disrespect for life.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，禁忌食人行为的根本在于，作为人类，我们不会把彼此当作食物。

I mean, you know, at the base of the cannibalism taboo is this idea that as human beings, we don't look at each other as food.

而这种方式，某种程度上恰恰尊重了这一点。

And this, in a way, honors that.

对吧？

Right?

这并不是说，哦，这个人死了。

This isn't like, oh, this person died.

他吃起来一定很美味。

They're gonna be delicious.

对吧？

Right?

这就像，是的，我们不会把彼此当作食物，而是会通过这种仪式性行为来致敬生命，也许吧。

This is like, yeah, we don't look at each other as food, and we're gonna do this ritualistic thing to honor the life, maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，关于这个食人故事的结局，有趣的是，这些人类学家普遍知道当时存在一些争议，但证据的倾向性支持了福瑞人食用死者这一观点。

So so what's interesting about, like, where this foray story ends is these anthropologists generally knew there was some debate, but the sort of weight of evidence was on the side of the idea that the foray were eating their dead.

因为他们知道，他们所发现的是，当他们食用死者时，有时会传播库鲁病。

Because they knew that, what they were able to figure out is that when they ate their dead, sometimes what was happening is they were spreading kuru.

这是一种朊病毒疾病，当时还是一种不太被理解的疾病，类似于大脑蛋白质的感染。

It's a prion disease, which was a relatively not understood kind of disease, but it's like an infection of brain protein.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以当他们食用福瑞人死者的脑组织时，就感染了这种疾病。

And so when they ate brain tissue from a dead foray, they were getting this disease.

库鲁病的奇怪之处在于，它不会立即显现出来。

The strange thing about kuru is it doesn't show up right away.

你可能携带它长达四十年之久，直到定时炸弹引爆。

You can carry it for something like as long as forty years before the time bomb explodes.

所以并不是有人去世了，我们就为他们举办葬礼。

And so it wasn't person dies, we hold a funeral for them.

到了下一周，所有人都病倒了。

The next week, everyone's ill.

情况就是：有人去世了，我们就为他们举办葬礼。

It was like person dies, we hold a funeral for them.

也许很多年后，有人病倒了。

Maybe many years later, someone's ill.

但这个故事的真正结局是，福雷人决定改变关于食人的规矩。

But the actual ending of the story was the foray decided to change the rules around cannibalism.

但并不是因为食人是错的或令人作呕。

But it wasn't because cannibalism was wrong or gross.

只是因为我们在因此而死去。

It was just like, we're dying from it.

你知道吗，许多传统食物禁忌，比如犹太教和伊斯兰教的饮食规范，部分与健康、安全有关，是避免食用肉类带来风险的方式。

You know, there is this idea that a lot of food taboos traditionally, you think of kosher and halal systems, had to do partly with health, and had to do partly with safety, and ways of consuming meat that wouldn't put you at risk.

因此，了解到人类食人禁忌中可能也包含这方面的因素，并不令人意外。

And so it's not surprising to learn that there might be some element of that in the taboo against human cannibalism.

如果食人禁忌——我们通常认为是为了保护他人——实际上也是为了保护我们自己，这将非常有趣。

This would be interesting if the cannibalism taboo, which we assume is about protecting others, might turn out to be also about protecting ourselves.

但假设一下，如果我们有一种安全的方式可以食用人类，会怎样？

But hypothetically, what if there was a safe way for us to consume people?

这其实也是我和汉娜聊天时提到过的话题。

This is something that had come up in conversation with Hannah too.

人工合成的人类肉类。

Synthetically created human meat.

你会吃实验室培育的人类肉类吗？

Would would you eat lab grown human meat?

我可以告诉你我想要做什么，也可以告诉你什么是现实的。

I can tell you what I wanna say I would do, and I can tell you what I know is real.

我的意思是，我当然会试试。

Like, I wanna say, like, of course, I would try it.

我是个好奇心很强的人。

I'm a curious person.

我想体验所有的经历。

I've wanted to have every single experience.

我什么都不怕，诸如此类的话。

I'm afraid of nothing, blah blah blah.

有个人曾经带我去多伦多一家餐厅，那里可以吃动物的大脑，我当场就吐了。

Somebody took me on a date once to this restaurant in Toronto where you could eat just like the brains of animals, and I threw up right away.

那食物本身根本没什么问题。

And there was nothing about the food that was bad.

只是想到我吃的是大脑，而人也有大脑，人们不该吃大脑因为人有大脑，这种想法让我产生了生理反应，直接吐了。

It was just like the idea that I was eating a brain and people have brains, and you're not supposed to eat brains because people have brains, like, caused me to have a physical reaction where I vomited.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以我认为我不会吃，你会吃实验室培育的人类肉类吗？

So I don't think I would eat would you eat human grown lab meat?

实验室培育的人类肉类。

Lab grown human meat.

实验室培育的人类肉类，指的是一个科学家在深夜加班时在实验室里被谋杀。

Human grown lab meat would be a scientist who was murdered in his lab while working late one night.

我想我会吃实验室培育的人类肉类。

I think I would eat lab grown human meat.

我的意思是，我们似乎离能在实验室培育各种组织的时代并不太远。

I mean, it doesn't seem like we're necessarily too far away from a time when you can grow all different kinds of flesh in a lab.

是的。

Yeah.

从这个角度来说，所谓‘人类’的定义可能跟DNA有关，但我不确定。

And so in that sense, what it would mean for it to be quote unquote human, I guess, would have something to do with the DNA and I don't know.

但这变得有点抽象了。

But it it gets a little abstract.

但你提出的论点呢？即如果你创造了一个可以食用合成人肉、吃PJ三明治之类的世界，你实际上是在削弱我们身体神圣性这一自然禁忌的力量，从而可能造就一个你不愿生活其中的社会。

But what about the argument that you've made, which is that if you create that world in which we can eat synthetic human meat and have PJ sandwiches or whatever, you are reducing you're lowering the strength of this natural taboo against the sacredness of our bodies, and then perhaps creating a society that you don't wanna live in.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是现代化的一部分。

And I mean, that's part of what modernization is.

对吧？

Right?

各种禁忌被视作迷信而逐渐消失，问题在于，当这些禁忌被弱化时，我们能否仍坚守住那些我们认为是恶劣的行为底线？

It's like, various taboos get considered superstitious, and they kind of fall away, and then the question is, can we hold the line against other kinds of behavior we think is bad, even as these taboos get weakened?

有时，我们需要建立新的禁忌或新规则。

Sometimes, we need to develop new taboos or new rules.

对吧？

Right?

你生活在一个性行为会导致怀孕的世界里，然后各种避孕技术出现了，你就得重新思考关于性的规则和禁忌，而我们至今仍在进行这一过程。

You're living in a world where, like, sex leads to pregnancy, and then all these birth control technologies come in, and then you've got to refigure out your rules and your taboos around sex, which we're, you know, still in the process of doing.

是的。

Yeah.

在这种情况下，即使我们食用的是口感类似于人体的实验室培育肉类，是否仍有可能尊重人体、不吃人肉呢？

In this case, would it be possible to still respect people's bodies and not eat people's bodies even if we're eating lab grown meat that sort of tastes the way someone's body would taste.

我怀疑这可能是一种逃避。

I suspect may this is a cop out.

我能给你一个逃避式的回答吗？

Can I give you a cop out answer?

是的。

Yeah.

一个逃避式的回答是：也许我们进化过程中并没有觉得人肉特别美味，因此当我们比较不同种类的实验室肉类时，会更倾向于选择那些更接近人类传统饮食的口味？

One cop out answer is, maybe we didn't evolve to find the taste of humans that delicious, and so that when we're comparing different kinds of lab meat, we're gonna be drawn to things that are a little bit more like the kinds of things that humans have traditionally eaten?

我会告诉你，不幸的是，这些这些人

I will tell you, unfortunately, so these these Is people

这会不会变成《纽约客》漫画里的场景：医生对猪说，这是你的肋排。

this gonna be a version of the New Yorker cartoon, where the doctor says to the pig, it's your ribs.

我担心它们很好吃。

I'm afraid they're delicious.

基本上是这样。

Basically.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

写了这篇关于猎首行为论文的人类学家，我觉得最让我震惊的部分是……

The anthropologist who wrote this paper on the foray, the part that I found kind of most like, oh, shit.

我可以再读给你听一段论文里的引文吗？

I can I read you one more quote from the paper?

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们把对猎首族群所实践的食人行为称为内食人。

So the way they talk about the type of cannibalism that the foray practice as endocannibalism.

内食人是指你们吃自己群体的成员。

Endocannibalism is you're eating members of your group.

嗯。

Mhmm.

外食人是指吃外部群体的成员。

Exocannibalism is eating members of the out group.

所以他们在解释，为什么会这么做。

So so they're explaining, like, why they did it.

后来的研究解释了内食人在库鲁病传播中的作用，并强调，人们吃逝者是出于爱，比如悲痛之爱，同时也出于美食欣赏，尽管这并非该习俗的本意，而是其结果。

Later works have explained the role of endocannibalism in the epidemiology of kuru and emphasized that the body was eaten out of love, like grief love, as well as for gastronomic appreciation, which was not the intended purpose of the practice, but its result.

那这句话是什么意思？这种习俗的本意是什么？

What does that mean, the intended purpose of the practice?

意思是，当他们吃逝者是为了传达关于生命、爱与悲痛的种种意义时，附带的后果却是发现人肉其实非常美味。

It means that while they were eating their dead to communicate all these things about life and love and grief, the side effect was that they were discovering that people are actually really tasty.

哦，但要把美味和我们讲述的故事分开可不容易。

Oh, but it's hard to separate tastiness from the stories we tell us.

对吧？

Right?

就像一瓶葡萄酒的标签会影响人们品尝它的味道一样。

Just like just like the label on a bottle of wine is gonna affect the way it tastes to people.

是的。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

如果你有这么多的铺垫、仪式和象征意义，也许人体就会像圣餐饼对信徒一样，开始变得美味。

If you have this all this buildup, and all this ritual, and all this symbolic meaning, maybe the human body starts to taste delicious the same way a communion wafer might taste delicious to a believer.

我也认为，我们可能进化出了一种普遍不觉得人类美味的倾向。

I also think that, you know, there's reason to imagine that we might have evolved not to find humans tasty in general.

是的。

Right.

是的。

Right.

对。

Right.

我喜欢这个想法：你会用一种我们常对孩子说话的方式回应这个孩子，即告诉他们一些大致正确的事情。

I like the idea that you'd respond to this kid with this question the way we often respond to kids, which is by telling them something that's sort of mainly true.

对，但不完整。

True, but incomplete.

是的。

Yes.

我认为‘对，但不完整’是回答这个问题的出路，而无需用一堆关于德国食人者的可怕故事吓到他。

I think true, but incomplete is, like, the way out of answering this without having to, like, horrify him with a bunch of stories about, like, German cannibals.

甚至我觉得，他应该以一种简单的方式庆祝他可能称之为原住民日的节日。

Even, like, I think he should have a uncomplicated version of celebrating what he probably knows as indigenous people's day.

我觉得对奥托来说，正确的答案是：你不该吃人，因为这可能会让你得重病。

Like, I think the the right answer for Otto is you shouldn't eat people because it could make you really sick.

是的。

Yes.

这是凯莱法·桑内，一位禁忌的批评者，但有时也是禁忌的支持者。

That's Kelefa Sanneh, a taboo critic, but sometimes a taboo supporter.

他为《纽约客》撰写各种题材的文章。

He writes about all sorts of things with The New Yorker.

本周，当我们正在剪辑这期节目时，我短暂地与汉娜——奥托的妈妈——聊了聊。

This week, as we were wrapping the episode, I briefly spoke with Hannah, Otto's mom.

她说，自从我们第一次交谈以来的几个月里，奥托像四岁孩子那样不断改变想法。

She said in the couple months since we first spoke, Otto keeps changing the way four year olds do.

她说，现在他们玩一个游戏：当他上床睡觉时，可以向父母问一定数量的问题，然后才能入睡。

She says these days, they play a game where when he goes to bed, he's allowed to ask his parents a certain amount of questions before he falls asleep.

本周，她说奥托不再对食人感兴趣了。

This week, she said Otto has not been wondering about cannibalism.

他的思绪已经转向了另一个问题，而坦白说，我也不知道答案。

His mind had moved on to another question, which frankly, I don't have the answer to.

石头是由什么组成的？

What are rocks made out of?

也许下周在《搜索引擎》节目中会揭晓。

Maybe that's next week on Search Engine.

广告后，我们将带来英语中最令人焦虑的一句话。

After the break, the most anxiety inducing command in the English language.

检查完毕。

Check.

检查完毕。

Check.

检查完毕。

Check.

哦，好了。

Oh, there we go.

我们现在直播了。

Now we're live.

热。

Hot.

热。

Hot.

热。

Hot.

你好。

Hello.

你好。

Hello.

你好。

Hello.

好的。

Okay.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

我现在演播室里，和搜索引擎制作人加勒特·格雷厄姆在一起。

I'm here in the studio with search engine producer, Garrett Graham.

很高兴能来这里。

It's great to be here.

我们在这里，是因为到了该做推荐的时候了。

And we're here because it's time for us to do recommendations.

我觉得这周我们有，像是

I feel like this week, we have, like

这有点像一个小展示。

It's a little bit of a little bit of a show and tell.

这确实是个展示。

It's a show and tell.

我觉得我们就像在制作那种晨间电视节目，因为 studio 桌子上放着两个盘子，上面有小纸巾和银器，因为我们各自为对方带来了食物推荐。

I feel like we're making, like, one of those, like, TV morning shows because there's on the studio table here, there's two plates with little paper towel napkins and silver on them because we both brought food recommendations for each other.

就像，什么播客是

It's like, what podcast are

我们在制作什么？

we making?

我们只是遵循这一集的结构。

We we're just keeping with the organization of the episode.

我们只是再加一道甜点。

We're just throwing a second dessert on.

就像你快要离开餐厅时，厨房的人跟你熟，然后说：我们再给你带一份。

And it's like when you're, like, about to leave the restaurant, and they're like, you're the the the kitchen's friendly with you, and they're like, we brought you one more thing.

没错。

Precisely.

谁先来？

Who goes first?

要不我们先从甜点开始吧。

Why don't we let's go pastry first.

我带了一些糕点。

So I I I brought some pastries.

不过我想先简单介绍一下，几周前，你推荐了一家三明治店，你吃了他们家的三明治，还有本地的

I do wanna set them up briefly though, which is that a couple of weeks ago, you plugged a sandwich shop that you a sandwich and local a local

布鲁克林一家三明治和糕点店，我既认可他们的经营方式，也认可他们食物的质量。

Brooklyn sandwich and pastry shop where I approved both the way they ran their business and the and the quality of their food.

我当时就想，这么具有纽约特色的推荐，这样合适吗？

And I was like, is it is it okay that this is such a New York specific recommendation?

我们决定是合适的。

We decided that it was

我们稍微再加把劲，但更重要的是，因为我的好胜心被激发了。

We're doubling down a little bit, but also we're doubling down specifically because my competitive juices started flowing a little bit.

你一直在大力推荐海土。

You were really hyping up sea soil.

你办公室里还穿着海土的周边服饰。

You were wearing some sea and soil paraphernalia around office.

是的。

Yes.

我爱上了我家附近的一家糕点店。

I I am in love with a pastry shop in my neighborhood.

所以我带了一些糕点

So I brought I brought some pastries

你带了糕点？

You brought pastries?

给我们品尝。

For us to sample.

哦，这些看起来太棒了。

Oh, these are gorgeous.

好的。

Okay.

有三种选择。

So there are three options.

好的。

Okay.

你来选吧。

You get to pick.