来自档案馆——《消失的一半》：布里特·贝内特谈身份、创造与我们继承的故事

欢迎来到由我杜阿·利帕主持的Service 95读书会。

Welcome to the Service ninety five Book Club with me, Dua Lipa.

老实说，阅读一直是我生命各个阶段的锚点，这个读书会正是我分享这份喜悦的方式。

Honestly, reading has been an anchor through every phase of my life, and this book club is a way of sharing that joy.

每个月，我都会推荐一本我钟爱的书，并与作者坐下来，坦诚地探讨书中的主题、人物以及他们所创造的世界。

Every month, I'll spotlight a book I've loved and sit down with the author for an open and honest conversation about the themes, the characters, and the world they've created.

因为我已经有幸与许多杰出的作家交谈过，我将打开档案库，每月重新推出一本珍品。

And because I've had the pleasure of speaking with so many brilliant writers already, I'll be opening the archive and bringing back one gem each month.

所以，倒一杯饮品，拿起你的书，我们开始吧。

So pour a glass, grab your book, and let's get into it.

从月度精选档案中，我们邀请到布里特·贝内特，我在2023年11月曾与她讨论过她那部引人入胜的小说《消失的半边》。

From the monthly read archive, we have Britt Bennett, who I spoke to in November 2023 about her mesmerizing novel, The Vanishing Half.

我们探讨了身份与种族，以及小说如何为矛盾与真相留出空间。

We discuss identity and race and how fiction can hold space for contradiction and truth.

接下来是我的与布里特的对话。

My chat with Britt coming up.

嗨，布里特。

Hi, Brit.

嗨。

Hi.

最近怎么样？

How's it going?

挺好。

Good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你最近怎么样？

How are you doing?

我很好。

I'm doing great.

今天能和你聊天我真的很开心。

I'm so happy to talk to you today.

我彻底读完了《消失的房子》

I absolutely devoured The Vanishing House

谢谢。

Thank you.

我是在2020年这本书刚出版时读的。

Which I read when it first came out in 2020.

我在洛杉矶洛斯费利兹的一家叫Skylight Bookstore的书店里看到了它。

And I saw it in I saw it in a bookstore in Los Feliz called Skylight Bookstore.

我不确定你

I don't know if you

是否知道。

know it.

去过那里。

Been there.

是的。

Yeah.

它一下子就吸引了我的注意。

And it just it caught my attention.

我读的时候，很快就看完了。

And when I read it, I just got through it really fast.

我觉得我最喜欢的是，这是一部像史诗般跨越多代的故事，但节奏却有种侦探小说的感觉。

And I think what I loved about it the most is that it's like this epic multigenerational story with, I guess, feels like the pace of a, like detective story in a way.

但与此同时，它以多层次且发人深省的方式探讨了种族、性别以及更广泛的认同问题。

But at the same time, it explores race and gender and wider questions of identity in such like layered and thought provoking ways.

我只是，是的，我真的非常喜欢它。

And I just, yeah, I I really, really loved it.

这本书成为了《纽约时报》畅销书，并让你登上了《时代》百大人物等榜单，而这一切都是在你30岁之前完成的，这一定非常不真实吧。

And the book became a New York Times bestseller and put you on the list such as, like, the Time 100, which I think must have been really surreal and and all by the age of 30.

所以我想衷心感谢你今天参与我们的Service 95读书会。

So I just wanna say thank you so much for joining me today and participating in the Service ninety five Book Club.

我们非常高兴你能加入。

We're just so happy to have you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我很期待继续深入探讨《消失的半边》的内容。

And I'm excited to to get into more Vanishing Half stuff.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我想在2014年，你年仅24岁时，就通过一篇题为《我不知道该如何对待那些善良的白人》的文章引起了广泛关注。

So I think you perhaps came to a lot of people's attention in 2014 when you were only 24 years old, and you published an article called I don't know what to do with good white people.

这篇文章探讨了警察杀害黑人的问题。

And it was about the killings of black people by police officers.

你的这篇随笔迅速走红。

And your essay went completely viral.

短短几天内就有数百万人阅读，我建议所有正在听这个节目的人去读一读，因为它至今依然极具现实意义。

It was read by millions in a matter of days, and I suggest to anyone who's who's listening to this to go in and read it because it's still so so relevant today.

你能告诉我，是什么促使你写下这篇文章的吗？

Can you tell me what compelled you to write this piece?

这段经历在多大程度上引导你走上了作家的道路？

And to what extent did this experience set you on the path as a writer?

也就是说，你觉得自己找到了自己的声音和受众吗？

Like, do you feel like you'd found your voice and and found your audience?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，那是我第一篇真正公开发表的作品。

I mean, think that was the first piece I really published, like publicly.

当时我正在读研究生。

And, yeah, I just remember I was in grad school at the time.

我那时正在写一部小说，从没想过自己会成为散文家或写非虚构作品的人。

I was working on a novel, I never thought of myself as an essayist or anybody who was going to write nonfiction.

我始终认为自己就是一个小说家。

Thought of myself very squarely as a as a novelist.

但正如你所说，当时接连发生了多起警察枪杀 unarmed 黑人事件。

But as you said, there was these string of police killings of unarmed blast people that were happening.

而且，我认为很多都源于我身边人之间的对话。

And also, I think a lot of it was the conversations that was happening with the people around me.

我在这篇随笔中谈到过，我知道自己长期身处白人主导的空间，常常与非常进步的白人交流，和那些希望摆脱内疚感的人进行对话。

I talked about the essay how I, you know, have spent a lot of time in white spaces and often with very progressive white people and having these conversations with people who wanted to sort of be absolved of any guilt.

当这些事件发生时，这些可怕的事件与我身边人的反应之间存在着一种不协调——他们更关注于想让自己看起来像是‘好人’。

When these events were happening, there was something about the dissonance between these horrific events that were happening and the reactions of the people around me that were more focused on wanting to seem like, well, I'm I'm one of the good ones.

我不是那种警察。

I'm not like those cops.

对。

Right.

所以对他们自己来说，我觉得是这样。

So for themselves, think it was.

是的，我认为正是这些事件的综合作用，让我坐下来写这篇随笔，我只是想质疑‘善意’的价值——如果最终结果仍然是伤害，那么你的初衷还重要吗？

Yeah, I think it was a combination of those events that made me kind of sit down to write this essay where I just wanted to interrogate sort of the value of good intention that the if the end result is still harm, how much do your intentions matter?

所以，这真是一段非常超现实的经历。

So yeah, it was a very surreal experience.

正如你所说，那篇随笔走红了。

As you said, it was an essay that went viral.

我写它的时候，根本没想到除了朋友之外会有人转发。

I have no expectation when I wrote it that anybody beyond like my friends would repeat it.

所以这感觉非常不真实。

So it was very surreal.

这是我第一次公开发表任何作品。

And it was my first experience publishing anything publicly.

这真的很引人入胜。

It's it's fascinating.

就像我说的，这是一篇非常重要的文章。

And like I said, it's it's a really important piece.

现在谈谈《消失的半边》，我想你写这部小说的时候正值特朗普执政时期。

Now talking about the the vanishing half, I think you were writing the novel during, like, the Trump presidency.

我想知道，当时种族问题重新成为政治焦点，是否对你产生了影响。

And I'm wondering whether, like, the renewed political spotlight on race had an influence on you.

我的意思是，当奥巴马当总统时，许多人，尤其是白人美国人，觉得种族主义终于要被扫进历史的垃圾堆了。

I mean, when Obama was president, like, many, especially, like, white Americans felt like racism was finally on its way to being consigned to history.

但接着我们迎来了特朗普，种族主义又无处不在了。

But then we got Trump and racism was everywhere again.

但当然，它一直都在。

But of course, it always had been.

对。

Right.

你认为特朗普执政期间发生的这些事件，对故事的发展很重要吗？

Do you think the unfolding events under Trump's presidency were important to how the story evolved?

是的，我的意思是，我认为这本书确实受到了那个时代的深刻影响，正如你所说，我大概是在2017年或2018年开始写《消失的半边》的。

Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely was inflected by that moment, as you said, it was a book that I started, I probably started the vanishing half in like 2017, maybe 2018.

所以，我刚开始写这本书的时候，正是特朗普执政的早期。

So kind of early Trump years is when I started first started writing it.

但正如你所说，我认为那是一个种族对话变得异常公开的特殊时刻。

But you know, as you were saying, I think that that was such a particular moment where the racial conversations got very explicit.

特朗普的一个特点就是，他总是把潜台词变成明文。

It was no longer like one of the things I would say about Trump is that he always made the subtext text.

你不再需要猜测他话里是什么意思，因为他非常明确地说出了自己的想法，他的追随者也同样明确地表达了他们的意思。

There was no sort of I wonder what he means by that, like there was to for that feeling like he said pretty explicitly what he meant and his followers also said pretty explicitly what they meant.

我确实认为，这一点发生了显著的变化。

I do think that that was something that certainly changed.

谈到种族对话时，当我思考这本书时，这本书的很大一部分对我来说是关于界定种族身份，思考什么是白人、什么是黑人、什么是选择身份、什么又是被强加的身份。

As far as conversations about race and when I was thinking about this book, and so much of this book to me is about sort of defining racial identity and thinking about what it means to be white, what it means to be black, what it means to choose an identity, what it means to have an identity assigned to you.

所以我认为，在种族对话达到白热化的时候写这本书，确实有其特殊性——在奥巴马时代还属于潜台词的内容，此时变得极其公开了。

So I do think that there was something about writing this book in a moment where the conversations about race reached such a fever pitch and things that were maybe subtextual during the Obama era became very late latex.

对。

Right.

听你这么说，我对书中不同角色所体现的种族议题感到非常着迷。

What now hearing you speak, I I'm so fascinated by this whole examination of what races through the different characters in the book.

因为这远不止是肤色那么简单，对吧？

Because it's not as simple as skin color, is it?

你有一个皮肤白皙的女性，由于她的血统，仍然被认定为黑人，这就是斯特拉这个角色，她活在谎言中，伪装成白人，融入白人社会。

It's it's you've got a white skinned woman who is still considered to be black because of her parentage in the character of Stella, who lives a lie to pass as white and integrate into white society.

然后你有朱迪这个深色皮肤的角色，她是德西蕾的女儿，在马勒德社区中感到孤立。

Then you've got a dark skinned character of Jude, who's Desiree's daughter, who feels isolated by her community in Mallard.

那么，在你看来，种族是什么？

So what is race in your view?

显然，这不仅仅是肤色的问题。

Like, it's it's it's clearly not just about skin color.

它是否也与血统密切相关？

Like, it is it as much about heritage as well?

还是说，你认为它是一种社会建构？

Or are you saying it's like a social construct of some kind?

是的，我认为这正是这本书的核心问题。

Yeah, I mean, I think that is the big question at the center of the book.

所以我才笑，因为我花了多年时间思考这个问题，但至今仍没有一个简洁的答案。

And that's why I'm like laughing because I spent years like thinking about this and I still don't know that I have a concise answer.

我认为，正如你所说，我对超越肤色的种族概念很感兴趣。

I think that as you said, I was interested in the idea of racing beyond skin color.

这不仅仅是你看起来像什么，你就属于什么，我觉得这是我成长过程中人们谈论种族时常用的方式——如果你看起来是黑人，那你就是黑人；如果是白人，那就只是这样。

It's not just you look like this, therefore you are that, which I think was a lot of the ways that I heard people talk about race when I was growing up, but oh, if you look black, you're black, you're white, that's kind of it.

而我认为，现在我们 hopefully 对多元种族身份以及种族的其他方面有了更复杂的理解，这些方面并不仅仅取决于你的外貌。

And I think now we have hopefully a more complex understanding of multiracial identity and different aspects of race that are not simply just what you look like.

但正如你所说，我也在思考成长环境和你所接触的文化。

But I think as you said, also, I think about contacts and the way that you were raised.

我总是对那些做23andMe这类祖先检测的人感到着迷，他们发现自己的种族身份与自己一直以来的认知并不一致。

And you know, I'm always like fascinated by people who do like 23 and me like ancestry stuff, and they find out that they're, you know, their racial identity is different than how they believe themselves to be.

这会不会改变你对自己的看法？

And does that then change how you think of yourself?

还是你会因为从小一直认同某种文化而直接忽略它？

Or do you kind of dismiss it because you always grew up believing yourself to belong to whatever culture?

你知道，我觉得这太复杂了。

You know, I think it's so complicated.

在这本书中，我想探讨的是，种族身份并不仅仅取决于你的外貌，因为书的核心是两对长相完全相同的双胞胎，她们由于选择的身份认同，经历了截然不同的种族现实。

And in this book, I wanted to think about that, that it's not simply what you look like, because at the center of the book are identical twins who look exactly the same, but they experience two completely different racial realities because of how they choose to identify.

是的，这非常复杂。

Yeah, it's so layered.

书中的故事以及所有发生的事情，我觉得你把它们交织得非常好。

Just the stories in the book and everything that's happening, I feel you intertwine them really, really well.

小说中有一个令人震惊且关键的时刻：双胞胎姐妹目睹父亲被白人男子拖走，即将被私刑处死。

There's a really shocking and pivotal moment in the novel where the twin girls witness their father being dragged away by white men to be lynched.

父亲被谋杀的创伤如何影响了德西蕾和斯特拉一生的经历与选择？

How does the trauma of their father's murder play out through their life experiences and choices of Desiree and Stella?

甚至对于她们的女儿朱迪和肯尼迪来说，可以说她们也经历了一种代际创伤。

And and even with Jude and Kennedy, their daughters, like, I guess you could say they experience a kind of intergenerational trauma.

对。

Right.

是的，我在写那个场景时，一直把它称为‘双胞胎的分裂’，因为对我来说，那正是她们开始走向不同人生的关键时刻——即使在她们真正走向不同生活之前，她们的精神就已经分道扬镳了。

Yeah, I mean, I think when I was writing that scene, I always titled it the twin split, because to me, that was really the moment where they kind of split into the different people that they will be, even before they actually physically go into their own different directions.

对我来说，这是一个至关重要的时刻，因为我觉得双胞胎目睹了这一可怕而创伤性的事件。

And to me, that was such a pivotal moment, because I think that the twins witnessed this horrific and traumatic thing.

但她们俩从中得出的结论却截然不同。

But they both kind of take these very different conclusions from it.

我觉得德西蕾看到这一切后，心里想，无论你的肤色多浅，你仍然可能遭遇这种种族暴力。

You know, I think Desiree sees this happen and she thinks to herself that it doesn't really matter how light you are, because you can still experience this type of racialized violence.

所以我想

So I

我认为，正是在这个时刻，她开始逐渐否定小镇上那种认为肤色越浅越好的观念，因为她看到父亲肤色很浅，但这样的惨剧依然发生在了他身上。

think that that's a moment where she begins to sort of reject the ethos of the town that believes that it's better to be light, because she saw her dad was very light and this horrible thing still happened to him.

而对于斯特拉来说，她的结论几乎是：仅仅肤色浅是不够的，如果你想逃避这种暴力，你必须变成白人。

And I think for Stella, her conclusion is almost, you know, it's not enough to be light, you have to be white if you want to escape this type of violence.

所以我认为，斯特拉几乎得出了一个相反的结论：肤色非常重要，不仅仅是肤色，还包括你如何选择认同自己，因为我觉得正是这个时刻一直萦绕在她心头。

So I think for Stella, she almost draws like this opposite conclusion that skin color is very important and not not just skin color, but also how you choose to identify because I think that is a moment that she is haunted by.

这某种程度上标志着她渴望逃离、渴望在镇外找到安全的开端。

And that sort of begins to, I don't know, marks the beginning of her desire to escape and her desire to find safety somewhere outside of this town.

你觉得斯特拉选择离开马勒德，去过一种全新的生活，这在某种程度上是一种背叛吗？

Do you think there's like, I don't know, a feeling of betrayal in some way by Stella choosing to leave like Mallard and go on to live in like a new identity.

我 definitely 认为是这样。

I definitely think so.

我觉得马勒德这个地方很有趣，因为镇上的人非常重视肤色白皙，但离开这里去成为白人，那就是另一回事了，你知道，在那里肤色白皙是好事。

Think, you know, Mallard to me was an interesting place because the town where people very much value being light, but the idea of leaving it to be white, that's something else, you know, so it was good to be light there.

但如果你决定彻底离开这个社区，完全退出并以白人身份生活，这在社区里算是一种另类的背叛。

But if you decided to fully leave the community and fully exit and to live as white, that is sort of another transgression in this community.

那里有一些人，你听说过他们，会暂时‘跨种族’，比如，哦，我想去这家餐厅坐坐。

And there are people there are characters that you're like told about who kind of will pass momentarily like, know, oh, I wanted to sit at this restaurant.

所以我现在就当自己是白人。

So I'll be white right now.

但永久性地跨种族——这正是斯特拉所做的——这才是对这个社区的严重背叛。

But the idea of passing permanently, which is what Sela does that is something that is sort of this very high betrayal of this community.

所以我觉得特别有意思的是，他们必须小心翼翼地在这两者之间走钢丝：你希望肤色白皙，不想像其他黑人那样，但又不想成为白人，因此你必须一辈子都走这条不可能的钢丝。

So I found it so interesting that they have to like thread this needle very carefully between you want to be light so you don't want to be like other black people but you also don't want to be white so you have to just thread this impossible needle the entire time.

我想说，我真的很喜欢书中朱迪和里斯之间的温柔。

I wanna say that I really loved the tenderness in the book between Jude and Reese.

对我来说，整部小说中最动人的地方之一，就是他们彼此找到了在别处从未感受过的接纳、爱与支持。

And for me, I guess one of the most moving things in the whole novel is how they find forms of acceptance and love and support in each other that they hadn't felt elsewhere.

我认为这是一种非常美妙的方式，从不同的视角探讨身份认同的问题。

I think it's just like a really beautiful way to explore the issue of identity from a different lens.

我理解的是，里斯的跨性别旅程让他越来越接近真实的自我。

The way I read it, I it it it seemed that that Reese and his trans journey just starts to become even closer to his true self.

而斯特拉则随着小说的推进，感觉越来越疏离和孤独。

Whereas Stella feels like she's getting more and more distant and lonely as the novel goes on.

我想知道，你在探索这两个人物之间身份认同的对比时，最想揭示哪些问题呢？

And I'm wondering what were the issues that you were looking to discover, you know, regarding identity between these two parallels, I guess?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你对它的理解确实也是我所想的。

I mean, I think that the way that you read it was definitely the way that I thought of it as well.

我不想把这两种经历混为一谈，说它们完全相同。

I didn't want to conflate those two experiences and say that they were exactly the same.

但与此同时，我认为它们以一种非常有趣的方式相互呼应、彼此映照：雷思在成长过程中经历了极端的暴力，为了生存并做真实的自己而展现出勇气，并最终找到了社群与接纳；而正如你所说，斯特拉选择离开自己的社群，却未能获得接纳，最终陷入完全孤立的生活。

But the same time, I thought they echoed and they sort of bounced off of each other in a really interesting way as far as Reese experiencing this, you know, extreme violence when he's growing up and undergoing, you know, having to have this courage in order to live and be him his true self and finding community and acceptance as he does that, versus as you said, Stella deciding to leave her community, but not finding acceptance, she ends up emerging in this completely isolated life.

因此，在他们经历这些变化的方式上，我认为这些差异非常巨大。

So to me, those were huge differences in the way that they experienced these changes.

但我也很喜欢把种族作为一个角色来看待，因为我觉得它加深了朱迪对自己身份的理解——朱迪是一个渴望改变很多自我特质却无法做到的人。

But I also I love the idea of race as a character because I think he complicates Jude understanding where she, you know, Jude is a character who wants to change a lot of things about herself but is not able to.

我认为她总是对斯特拉能够如此戏剧性地改变人生感到些许怨恨。

And I think that she always sort of resents somebody like Stella for being able to change her life in this really dramatic way.

但当她遇见雷思时，这极大地复杂化了她对‘成为另一个人’这一概念的理解，因为正如你所说，雷思这个角色经历了许多外在变化，但归根结底，他反而更接近真实的自己。

But I think when she meets Reese that really complicates her understanding of what it means to sort of become a different person, because as you said, Reese is a character who undergoes a lot of physical changes, but at the end of the day, he becomes closer to himself.

做回自己，是的。

To himself, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且像斯特拉甚至连名字都没改，她没有经历这些身体上的变化，但她却变成了一个与你所塑造的角色完全不同的新人。

And like Stella doesn't even really change her name, she doesn't she doesn't undergo these different physical but she turns into a completely different person than the character you make

在故事一开始的时候。

in the beginning.

让我们谈谈书中的男性角色，德西蕾和斯特拉的丈夫们。

Let's let's talk about the the men in the book, Desiree and Stella's men.

比如，萨姆·温斯顿、埃利·琼斯和布莱克·桑德斯有什么不同？

Like, how do Sam Winston, Early Jones, and Blake Sanders differ?

他们有什么共同点吗？

Like, do they have any traits in common?

是的，就是这样。

Yeah, that's it.

现在我想像一下，这三个人待在同一个房间里。

Now I'm like, imagine the three of them being in a room together.

那会非常令人紧张。

And that's very stressful.

我想，先从德西蕾那边的人说起吧。

I guess as far as like, I'll start with Desiree's people, suppose.

但确实，德西蕾的丈夫，你知道的，她是在逃离他，因为他对她极其虐待。

But yeah, I mean, Desiree her, you know, her husband, she's escaping from him and then getting the both because he's horribly abusive to her.

对我来说，这段关系很有趣，因为某种程度上，她通过嫁给这个她知道母亲会反对的男人，来反抗自己的成长环境，而这个人最终确实对她很糟糕，但她并不愿意承认这一点。

And to me, that was an interesting relationship because she, I think in a way sort of rebelling against her upbringing against her family by marrying this man that she knows her mother would disapprove of and he does end up being awful to her, but she doesn't really want to admit it.

所以她悄悄回到家中，却不肯承认母亲当初是对的。

So she sort of slinks home not wanting to admit that her mother was right about him.

尽管母亲是对的原因并不是她早就知道他会虐待人。

Even though the reasons why her mother was right or not, it wasn't like she knew he was going to be abusive.

她只是对他很刻薄，但碰巧她说对了。

She was she was just being awful to him, but she happened to be right.

而埃利·琼斯是她童年时期认识的人，她后来与他重新取得联系，你知道，你一开始说这本书有点像侦探故事，埃利就像是我们的侦探角色，我写这个角色时特别享受，因为我觉得这有点老套，但我就是喜欢那种外表粗犷却内心温柔的人。

And early Jones is a character from her childhood who she reconnects with, and you know, you described the books in the beginning is sort of feeling like a detective story early is kind of our detective character, and he's a character that I had so much fun writing because I don't know it's like, I guess cliched in a way but I love a sort of gruff person who also is very tender.

埃利就是这样的人，他话不多，也不太会表达情感，但他通过行动展现出他对德西蕾，后来对朱德的关心、爱护和保护。

And I think that's very much early where he doesn't say much and he doesn't really, you know, he's not very effusive with his emotions, but he doesn't he shows through his actions that he really cares and he's loving and protective towards Desiree and then eventually Jude.

至于斯特拉的丈夫布莱克，他是一个那种能让她神魂颠倒的人。

And then for Stella's husband Blake, he's this character who kind of sweeps her off her feet.

他看起来就像是能给她一切她想要的东西。

He sort of is this guy who seems like he's going to give her everything that she's ever wanted.

他有钱，有一份体面的工作。

He's got money, he's got this nice job.

但对我来说，这段关系最引人入胜的地方在于，他们彼此实际上了解得多么少，而与德西蕾和早期相比，这些人是真正相连的，他们真的会交流，你知道，像斯特拉这样的人，嫁给一个你必须隐藏过去的人意味着什么。

But to me what was so fascinating about that relationship was just how little they really know each other versus Desiree and early where you're like these people are connected, they really talk they, you know, the idea of being Stella like what is it to be married to somebody that you have to hide past

从你那里

from, you

你不能谈论你经历过的那些事，你无法在与你共度一生的人面前做真实的自己。

can't talk about the things that you've experienced, you can't really be your true self around the person that you share a life with.

因此，对我来说，这段关系令人倍感压力，让我不断思考，置身于这样的婚姻中会是什么样子。

So that relationship for me was so stressful and thinking about what it would be like to be in a marriage like that.

对她来说，为了去做这样的事，放弃她所熟悉的一切和真实的自我，是一种巨大的牺牲。

It's such a big sacrifice for her to go and do something like that, to give up everything that she knows and who she is.

这真的很有趣。

It's really interesting.

阶级也是这部小说的核心主题。

Class is also a central theme in the novel.

对我来说，这部小说最突出的优点之一是它表明种族并不是一个单一的类别。

And for me, one of the novel's greatest strengths is that it shows that race isn't a single category.

比如，我认为当种族与阶级交织时，我们能看到最引人入胜的角色发展。

Like, I think we see some of the most interesting character developments when race intersects with class.

比如，我们有阿黛尔、德西蕾和斯特拉的母亲。

Like, for example, we have Adele, Desiree, and Stella's mother.

她拒绝了早期的埃里克·琼斯，尽管他多年来对她一直很好，而他出身于佃农家庭。

She rejects Early Jones, who's from a sharecropper background, despite how good he is to her over many, many years.

他与德西蕾的虐待狂丈夫萨姆形成了鲜明对比，萨姆是一位更高阶层的律师。

And he's also such a big contrast to Desiree's abusive husband, Sam, who was a higher class lawyer.

你希望读者从阶级这个角度获得什么启示？它是否有时被过于轻易地忽视了？

Like, what would you like readers to to take away about class and is it sometimes too easily overlooked?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，正如你所说，当这些不同的类别交织在一起时，作为作家，我觉得特别有趣，比如种族与性别、种族与阶级的交叉。

I mean, think I think that as you said, I think when when these different categories intersect, it gets really interesting for me as a writer of when it's race and gender or racial class or whatever.

在这个故事中，我对这些不同角色感兴趣，我认为阶级也是一个我们比其他类别更灵活地跨越的范畴——人们或许更容易理解在阶级之间流动，而不是在种族或其他身份之间转换。

And in this case, I was interested in these different characters, I think, I think imparting is also class is a category that we move through with more fluidity than perhaps the others like, it's I think it's more familiar for people in a way to think about moving between class categories and perhaps races, ascenders or something else.

而人们对你的反应、你如何看待自己，这些都很重要。比如对斯特拉来说，我认为这是她最大的变化之一。

And the ways that people respond to you and the ways that you think about yourself and the fact that you know, for someone like Stella, for example, I think that's one of the biggest changes for her.

这不仅仅是作为白人生活，更是作为上层阶级生活。

It's not just being living as white, but it's also living as upper class.

所以她必须学会该做什么、怎么说、怎么吃饭，以及哪些品味是被接受的。

So she has to like, learn what to do and how to speak and how to eat and what things you're you know, what type of tastes you can have.

我认为，即使你跨越了这些阶层，你所携带的阶级背景依然是最重要的东西。

I think that that's one of the biggest things that you carry with you is your class background, even if you move between those categories.

所以，我的意思是，我想让这个故事更复杂一些，而不是简单地讲这些女性嫁给了富人，一切就都完美了。

So yeah, I mean, I think I wanted to sort of complicate that and not just have this very simple story of these women marry these rich guys and everything is amazing.

我想让这个故事变得更复杂一些。

I wanted to, you know, complicate that.

但当我早期思考阿达琳时，确实有一种方式，让她不仅因为他是深色皮肤而轻视他，即使他是个好人。

But I think when thinking about Adalyn early, yeah, there is a way that she looks down on him not only because he is dark skinned but also because it's for, in spite of the fact that he is a good man.

你做得如此出色而精彩，能处理这么多交织在一起的故事——当你刚开始写一本书时，你到底是怎么做到的？

You've done such an interesting and brilliant job of being able to, how do you even do something like that when there's so many intertwining stories happening when you first start out, you know, to write a book?

是的。

Yeah.

你是不是把所有东西都写在一张板上，然后规划好下一步该往哪里走？

Do you just have it all on a board and you just kind of plan where you're going next?

你是怎么把这么多内容组织起来的，你知道的，像这样……

And how does that even how do you even form something so you know, so like Well,

我希望我能像那样有条理、有策略。

I wish I was that like organized and strategic.

我只是跟着故事的发展走。

Really is just kind of following where the story takes you

真的

really

找出什么有趣的地方。

figuring out what's interesting.

我的意思是，如果我能够更系统地列提纲、做规划，我的生活可能会轻松一些。

I mean, me, I think my life would be easier if I was outlining and planning if I was more deliberate about it.

但我觉得写这本书时，我知道我想从双胞胎开始，大致上我知道他们会分开，我也大概知道他们各自会去往哪里。

But I think for this book, knew I wanted to start with the twins I knew vaguely, you know, I knew they were going to split up, I kind of knew where each of them would be.

但其他那些角色，你知道的，他们不知不觉就走进了故事里，真的感觉是在不断发现什么才有趣。

But these other characters, you know, that kind of wandered into the book, it really felt like it was just discovering what felt interesting.

然后就是大量的修改，试图让一切变得合理。

And then a lot of editing to try to make it all make sense.

太棒了，太棒了。

Amazing, amazing.

我的意思是，《消失的另一半》显然产生了巨大的影响。

I mean, The Vanishing Half has had, I mean, has clearly had a phenomenal impact.

你一直位居《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜榜首，还获得了众多奖项。

You've been at the top of the New York Times bestseller list, you've won numerous awards.

这是否也达到了你对读者所期望的影响呢？

Has it also had the impact that you hoped on readers?

我的意思是，我不知道。

I mean, don't know.

我想，当我开始写这本书时，我首先想讲一个精彩的故事，想让读者感到愉悦，你知道，现在除了读书，人们还有很多其他选择——比如看电影、听播客、玩电子游戏，你可以用你的时间做上百万件事。

I think that I when I set out to write this book, I wanted to first tell a great story, I wanted to entertain people, I wanted to, you know, there's so many things that you can do now besides read a book, where it's like, you're gonna be watching a movie to be listening to podcasts, you're playing a video game like you can be doing a million things with your time.

所以，我能写出让人放下所有这些其他事情，专心阅读这本书的作品，我觉得这已经很了不起了。

So I think being able to write something that will make somebody turn away from all of those other things in order to focus and read the book.

这始终是我首先考虑的事情。

That's always the first thing I'm thinking about.

但第二点是，我不想直接提出关于身份、种族、选择、历史和家庭的这些问题，我并不打算给出答案，但我相信，只要能促使人们更深入地思考这些问题，这本书就算是成功的。

But I think the second thing was that I didn't want to ask these questions about identity and about race and choice and history and family I wanted to ask those big questions and maybe not provide answers to them but I felt like it would be successful if I led people to think about those things a little bit further.

我和读者们的交流，尤其是来自世界各地的读者，让我觉得这特别有趣，因为这本书非常具有美国特色，故事背景设定在一个非常具体的美国语境中。

And I think what I had conversations with readers, and particularly all over the world, I think that's been one really fascinating thing because it is a very like specifically American book of like taking place in a very specific American context.

但我与波兰的读者交谈过，也与南非的读者交流过，还和许多不同地方的人聊过，他们所处的种族背景各不相同，却都能与这个故事产生共鸣，对它感兴趣，并希望更多地了解美国种族历史及其独特而具体的细节，这些细节贯穿了整本书。

And but I'm talked to readers in Poland, I've talked to readers and you know South Africa, I've talked to readers and lots of different places that have different racial context, and people have connected to the story they've been interested in it, they wanted to know more about like the history of race in America and the weird like specific and particularities to it that inflect the book.

所以，与读者交流并看到他们首先被故事吸引，继而想要深入了解或进一步思考书中探讨的一些主题和历史问题，这真的让我感到非常兴奋。

So I think it's been really exciting to talk to readers and see how they've connected to it first just as a story and then second, wanting to know more or thinking more about some of the themes and the sort of historical question that I was wanting to explore.

太棒了。

Amazing.

布里特，非常非常感谢你今天与我分享这些。

Well, Britt, thank you so, so much for this today.

我非常喜欢与你交谈，更深入地探讨，并听你讲述《消失的半边》。

I have absolutely loved talking to you and diving in a little bit deeper and hearing you talk about The Vanishing Half.

再次衷心感谢你抽出时间。

So thank you so much for your time.

对我来说，我想知道的是，接下来你有什么计划？

And well, I guess for me, like what I wanna know is what's next?

你正在创作什么新作品吗？

Like, you working on anything new?

我目前正在写另一部小说。

I am actually, I'm working on this another novel.

这部小说其实讲的是音乐。

It's actually about music.

好的。

Okay.

等写完了，我们会给你寄一份早期版本。

And yeah, so we'll send you an early copy whenever it's done.

我非常期待。

I would love that.

是的，这确实是一段

Yeah, it's been a bit of

漫长的旅程。

a journey.

我一直在为这本书努力，但我只是想写一本关于两位女性音乐家的小说，她们有着非常复杂而紧张的关系。

I've been working with this book for a while, but I just wanted to yeah, write a book about two female musicians who have very complicated and fraught relationships.

这很有趣。

So it's been fun.

写一些我觉得比思考种族暴力历史以及《虚荣半部》中的一些主题更令人愉快的东西，真的很有趣。

It's been fun to write about something that I think is more enjoyable than thinking about, you know, the history of racial violence and some of the themes of The Vanity Half.

能够写我热爱的东西，真的很开心。

Like, it's been fun to to write into something that I love.

是的，我希望它某天能完成，但我们肯定会说，我认识了一些新的人。

Yes, I'm hoping it'll be done at some point, but we'll definitely say it's newfound people I have.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我会一直留意这件事的。

Well, I'll keep I'll keep my eyes open for that.

这非常令人兴奋。

That's very exciting.

谢谢你。

And thank you

再次感谢，祝你剩下的时光

again so much and have a lovely rest of

在纽约度过一个阳光明媚的一天。

your sunny day in New York.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

好的。

Alright.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

别忘了，每个月都会新增一些全新剧集，与这些存档剧集一同上线。

Don't forget, there are brand new episodes added every month alongside these archive episodes.

我们即将迎来一些非常出色的作者，我相信你们一定会喜欢。

We've got some amazing authors coming up that I just know you'll love.

请务必关注Service 95读书俱乐部播客，以免错过任何一集。

Make sure you're following the Service ninety five Book Club Podcast so you never miss an episode.

如果你喜欢这一集，为什么不给我们留个评价呢？

And if you love this one, why not leave us a review?

非常感谢你的收听，我们下次再见。

Thanks so much for listening, see you next time.