档案精选——在H Mart哭泣：Michelle Zauner谈食物如何承载记忆，悲痛如何重塑我们的自我，以及写作作为生存之举

欢迎来到由我杜阿·利帕主持的Service95读书会。

Welcome to the Service95 Book Club with me, Dua Lipa.

今天从档案中选取的是Michelle Zauner，我在2024年4月与她交谈，讨论了她那部感人至深的回忆录《在H Mart哭泣》。

From the archive today, it's Michelle Zauner, who I spoke to in April 2024 about her powerful memoir, Crying in H Mart.

我们谈论了食物如何承载记忆，悲伤如何重塑我们的自我，以及写作如何成为一种生存与爱的行为。

We talk about how food holds memory, how grief can remake who we are, and how writing becomes an act of survival and of love.

接下来是我的与Michelle的对话。

My conversation with Michelle coming up.

Michelle，你最近怎么样？

Michelle, how are you doing?

我很好。

I'm doing great.

你呢？

How are you?

我很好。

I'm good.

非常高兴你能加入我们的读书会。

I'm so happy to have you on our Book Club.

我绝对非常喜欢你那本非凡的回忆录《在H Mart哭泣》。

I I absolutely loved your extraordinary memoir, Crying in H Mart.

我的意思是，这本书非常感人，但同时又让人笑出声。

I mean, it was so moving, but at the same time, laugh laugh out loud funny.

我觉得你讲述的某些故事特别搞笑，温暖而真挚，仿佛讲述了一个关于母女关系的普遍故事。

And I feel some of the stories that you tell are so hilarious and it's warm and it feels like it tells this really kind of universal story between a mother and a daughter relationship.

我认为人生中有三件事是我完全着迷的。

And I think there are three things in life that I'm totally obsessed with.

那就是书籍、音乐和食物。

And that's books, music, and food.

所以我觉得和你的这次对话一定会非常愉快。

So I think I'm really gonna enjoy this conversation with you.

但在我们深入讨论之前，你能简要介绍一下《在H Mart哭泣》讲的是什么吗？

But before we jump in, can you give us a quick summary of what Crying in H Mart is about?

成长过程中

Growing up

有一位韩裔美国母亲和一位美国父亲，我和母亲之间关系紧张，也与韩国文化有着复杂的关系。在我25岁时，母亲因癌症去世，那段照顾她的过程让我深刻体会到了失去她的痛苦。在她去世后，我开始学习做韩国菜，以此唤起对她的回忆，重温童年，并重新连接我的文化根源。

with a Korean American mother and American dad and the sort of tumultuous relationship I had with my mother and Korean culture in some ways and losing my mother to cancer when I was 25 and the caretaking process that went into that when we discovered she had cancer, and how I sort of learned how to cook Korean food in the wake of her loss as a way of, conjuring memories of of her and my childhood and, sort of reconnecting with my culture.

我知道你现在正在韩国。

And And I understand that you're in Korea right now.

那边的情况怎么样？

How is how's that going?

你打算在那里待多久？

How long are you there for?

我在这里待一年。

I'm here for a year.

我正在写第二本书，我妈妈一直说，如果我在韩国住上六个月到一年，她认为我就能达到流利的水平，所以我想要验证一下这个说法。

I'm working on my second book, and my mom always told me if I lived in Korea for six months to a year, she thought that I could become fluent, and so I kind of wanted to put that to the test.

在上一轮巡演结束后，我感到非常疲惫——说出来可能听起来有点疯狂，但我真的需要休息一下。

And I was feeling sort of burnt out after it feels really insane to say this to you, but I was feeling really burnt out after the last touring cycle, and I just needed a break.

我的出版商给了我第二本书的合约，所以我决定借此机会去韩国上学一年。

And my publisher offered me, like, a second book deal, and so I decided to to kind of take put that to the test and and go to school for a year.

这真是一次非常谦卑的经历。

And it's been very humbling.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

我的意思是，巡演的日程确实很辛苦，我觉得你常常会错过真实的生活，比如和朋友、家人聚在一起的时光，但这也挺好的。

I mean, yeah, the the the touring schedule is grueling, and I feel like you feel like you miss out on sometimes real life or hanging out with friends and with your family, and it's cool.

语言学习进展得怎么样？

How how's language how's the language learning going?

太难了。

It's so tough.

我的意思是，每隔几天你就会有一些小突破，特别令人兴奋，你会觉得，到年底实现流利一定没问题。

I mean, every other day, I you have, like, these small wins that are really exciting, and you're like, oh, there's gonna be no problem in achieving some sort of fluency by the end of the year.

但过去几周真的特别艰难。

And then, like, the past couple of weeks have been have been really tough.

我觉得，从初级进步到中级，能够流利地造句，却总是不停地忘记东西。

I think, like, advancing from beginner to intermediate and, like, forming, like, fluid sentences and just, like, constantly forgetting things all the time.

就像你一直处于一种状态中，当你和别人争论时，事后一小时才想到，哦，那本该是完美的回应。

Like, it's sort of, like, you're in this constant state of, like, when you have an argument with someone and you wish, like, an hour later, you're like, oh, that would have been the perfect thing to say.

生活中每一次对话都是这样，你总会想，为什么我没用那个语法结构？或者我明明知道那个词，它去哪儿了？

It's like that all the time with every single conversation in your life where you're like, why didn't I use, like, this grammatical arrangement of things or like, I know that word, like, where did it go?

就像那种糟糕的感觉，你知道‘capricious’是什么意思，但就是一时想不起来。

It's like constantly like, it's like that awful feeling when you're like, I know what, like, capricious means, but I, like, can't remember it right now.

但每天要记住三四十甚至五十个单词，真的非常具有挑战性。

But with, like, thirty, forty, 50 words a day, it's really, really challenging.

完全同意。

Totally.

我的意思是，学习一门新语言真的非常困难。

I mean, learning learning a new language is is so is so difficult.

我明白你的意思。

I I know what you mean.

我觉得在我巡演的时候，就想，嘿，让我试试。

I feel like while I was on tour, was like, oh, let me try.

我要学点西班牙语。

I'm gonna learn a bit of Spanish.

然后我又想，我要学点法语。

And then I was like, I'm gonna learn a bit of French.

总是这样。

And it's always like that.

总想用另一种语言把句子说完。

Either trying to, like, finish sentences in a different language.

米歇尔，我想问问，你丈夫彼得适应这场冒险怎么样？

Michelle, I was wondering how's Peter, your husband, adapting to this adventure?

他也在学语言吗？

Is he also learning the language?

通过他的眼睛看韩国，一定也很有趣。

Like, it must be interesting to also see Korea through his eyes.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很暖心。

It's really sweet.

这太有趣了，因为当我们搬到这里时，我以为大多数人第一个问题会是，乐队怎么样？

It's so funny because I thought that most people, when we moved here, their first question would be like, what about the band?

比如，你的生活怎么样？

Like, what about your life?

就是这些各种问题。

Like, what like, all these questions.

但每个人第一个问的总是，彼得怎么样？

And the first question that everyone asks is always like, how is how is Peter?

他在做什么？

Like, what is he doing?

是的。

Yeah.

他很好。

He's good.

我的意思是，这真的很棒。

I mean, it's really wonderful.

他还在写一部小说，你知道的，我们很容易被室内的生活和想象力逗乐。

He's also working on a novel and, you know, we're very, like, easily entertained by the indoors and our imagination.

所以他正在适应。

So he's adjusting.

他正在交朋友。

He's, like, making friends.

他刚过完生日，几周前我们办了个派对，看到所有我们的新韩国朋友都来了，真的很开心。

He's very we just had his birthday party a couple weeks ago and it was really fun to see like all our Korean new Korean friends come out and Nice.

他正在适应生活，是的。

Adjust to the life and yeah.

他过得非常好。

He's doing really good.

在韩国，有一种叫做‘补习班’的机构，是一种私人学习机构。

In Korea, they have something called Hagwon, which is like a private like, learning institution.

几周里，我们一起去了那里，主要是学一些基础知识。

For a couple of weeks, we went together just, like, getting the basics down.

于是我们仿佛回到了青少年时期的恋爱，一起走路上学，体验那种感觉，互相看着对方。

And so we sort of regressed into, like, teenage dating, like, going to like, walking to school together and getting to experience that and, like, watching each other

真甜蜜。

do So Sweet.

你们在一起这么久了，能一起经历全新的体验一定很有趣。

Because you guys have been together for a long time, it must be fun to have like a whole new experience to share with each other.

对于那些不熟悉的人，H Mart是什么？为什么它对你们来说不仅仅是个超市？

For those of us not familiar with it, what is H Mart and why is it more than just a supermarket to you?

是的。

Yeah.

H Mart是一个小型超市连锁品牌，通常位于有较多韩国人或亚裔人口的城市。

H Mart is a small grocery train chain, which is usually located in cities that have, like, sort of larger Korean or Asian populations.

这基本上就是一个韩国超市。

And it's basically like a a Korean supermarket.

很多在普通超市买不到的韩国进口商品，都能在这间杂货店找到。

So a lot of the Korean imports that you can't get at a regular supermarket are you can be can be found at this this grocery store.

妈妈去世后，就像大多数正在哀悼的人被建议做的那样。

And, yeah, after my mom died, you know, like most people who are grieving are told to do.

我接受了几个月的心理治疗，同时还在做一份毫无灵魂的朝九晚五工作。

I I went to therapy for a a few months, and I was working a nine to five job that was really soulless.

我会坐火车去联合广场，支付100美元的共付额，只为和别人聊半小时。

And I would take the train to Union Square and pay, like, a $100 co pay to talk to someone for half an hour.

我对自己进行了一次冷酷而真实的审视，心想：如果我把这100美元的共付额花在买一堆杂货，或者一顿特别好的午餐上，会不会比这次咨询更能治愈我？

And I felt like I had a cold hard look at myself and was like, is if you spent this co pay on just, like, a bunch of groceries or, like, a really nice lunch, like, would that be more healing for you than this experience?

最终，我决定学习做韩国菜，发现当我去这家超市时，它仿佛唤醒了母亲生病前的那些回忆。

And, ultimately, I decided to learn how to cook Korean food and found that when I went to this grocery store, it was sort of unlocking these memories of my mother before she got sick.

我18岁就搬出父母家去上大学了，所以我和母亲最后那段密集相处的时光，就是她生病期间。

Because I moved out of my parents' house when I was 18 to go to college, so the last sort of concentrated period of time I spent with my mother was when she was sick.

所以很长一段时间里，要记住她生病前的样子非常困难，这让我非常心痛。

And so for a long time, it was very difficult to remember her before she was ill, that was really heartbreaking for me.

所以一旦我开始去H Mart，看到她以前给我做的各种食物，或是她最爱的那些料理，那种感觉就像逐渐突破了笼罩着我的创伤阴霾，让我想起了更快乐的时光。

And so once I started going to H Mart and sort of seeing all these different things that she used to make for me when I was a kid or different foods of hers that were her favorite, it sort of began to unlock sort of break through this, like, cloud of trauma and and remind me of sort of happier times.

我发现这真的让我感到安慰，于是我开始频繁地去H Mart，

And so I found that really comforting, and and I wound up going to H Mart very frequently for

那一年都是这样。

for that year.

你在书中如此优美地捕捉到了我们吃的食物如何将我们与特定文化紧密相连。

You capture so beautifully in the book how what we eat really ties us to a particular culture.

我的确能深深体会到这一点。

I mean, can really relate to that.

我妈妈总是做特别棒的阿尔巴尼亚菜。

My mom always cooked amazing Albanian food.

尤其是我住在伦敦的时候，离开科索沃后，这成了让我重新连接科索沃身份的纽带。

And especially while I was living in London, I'd left Kosovo, that was the thing that always brought me back to, I don't know, connecting me to the Kosovind side of my identity.

你表达得非常好，食物和烹饪被视为一种关怀的表达，而这正是你和母亲之间的情感纽带。

And you just express it so well, food and cooking is seen as a gesture of care, and how that was like that connective tissue between you and your mother.

事实上，你在书的开篇就提出了这个问题：在母亲去世后，你真的在H Mart里哭着问自己，如果再也没有人可以打电话问我们以前买的是哪个牌子的海苔，我还能算是韩国人吗？

And in fact, you ask in the opening pages of the book, when you're literally crying in H Mart following your mother's death, Am I even Korean anymore if there's no one left to call and ask which brand of seaweed we used to buy?

为什么食物是这本书中如此重要的主题？

Why is food such an important theme in the book?

当妈妈生病并接受化疗时，尤其是作为独生女，得知她生病后，我非常希望成为一位出色的首要照护者，以此回报作为独生女、独生子女所承受的恩情。

When my mom got sick and went through chemotherapy, especially I think as an only child, as an only daughter, when I found out she was sick, it was very important to me to become this exceptional primary caretaker to kind of repay the debts of being an only daughter, of an only child.

而其中很大一部分，我认为是一种非常原始的冲动——想要喂养那个曾经喂养过我的母亲。

And a big part of that, I think, very primal part of that is wanting to, like, feed the mother that fed you.

但韩国食物非常极端。

But Korean food is is very extreme.

它常常是鲜红色的。

It's very it's often, like, bright red.

它非常辛辣。

It's very spicy.

味道非常浓郁。

It's very flavorful.

非常咸。

It's very salty.

这就是我从小吃的、非常喜爱、被教导去吃和制作的食物。

And that's the food that I grew up eating and that I really love and and that I was taught to eat and make.

当妈妈生病、无法再吃这些食物时，我意识到我们之间存在着巨大的文化隔阂——我从未学过病人或年长者该吃什么，当消化能力变弱时，韩国人会吃哪些食物。

And when my mom got sick and was unable to sort of eat all of these foods, I realized there was a huge, like, cultural divide between us where I I never learned what the foods that you eat when you're ill or you're older, you can't digest things well, what like a Korean sick person eats.

因为当你去韩国餐厅或在家吃饭、身体健康时，那些食物你其实很少吃。

Because, like, when you go to a Korean restaurant or you eat at home and you're not sick, you don't really eat those foods very often.

有一位女士，是我母亲的好朋友，搬来和我们同住，并接过了照顾的角色。

And there was a woman, my mother's good friend, who came to live with us and sort of took over that role.

我觉得在母亲去世后，自己是个失败者，没能承担起那个角色。后来在写这本书的过程中，我逐渐意识到，这其实是一种心理上的修复过程——试图弥补那种未能掌握并给予她这些文化知识的遗憾。

And I think I felt like such a failure after my mother died that I wasn't sort of able to fulfill that role that I think part of it, I later realized in the process of writing this book was this kind of psychological undoing of that of that sense of failure, of of connecting to this sort of cultural knowledge that I I didn't have and I couldn't offer to her at that time.

但我也觉得，这些记忆本质上是一种感官记忆，我们每个人都清晰地拥有着。

But I also think that it's just such a, you know, it's a a sensual memory that all of us have very clearly.

这可以说是我们最早关于与家人和朋友分享食物的记忆之一，它成为我重新连接自身文化根源和母亲记忆的一个简单入口。

It's sort of one of our first memories of what foods we shared with our family and with our friends, and it was an easy sort of access point to that part of my heritage and that memory of my mother to get back in touch with.

我认为，对于这本书来说，这也是一个非常棒的结构方式。

And I think for the book, it was also a really great way to outline it.

它为一本我知道有时会非常黑暗沉重的书带来了一些轻盈感，也让我能在情绪过于压抑时，转向另一种写作风格。

It offered some sort of lightness to a book that I knew was gonna be very dark and very heavy at times, and and it allowed me to kinda lean into a different type of writing when when that got sort of too dark.

在谈到写作时，你母亲确诊癌症后不到六个月，你就失去了母亲，失业了，刚结婚，且与父亲关系疏远。

When speaking about the writing, within six months of your mother being diagnosed with cancer, you found yourself without a mother, unemployed, newly married and estranged from your father.

我想这需要处理太多事情了，你在书中多次提到，学习做韩餐如何让你感觉更接近母亲，并帮助你疗愈悲伤。

I guess that's so much to process, and you talk a lot in the book, and you're talking now about how much learning to cook Korean dishes help make you feel closer to your mother and help you process the grief.

但我很好奇，写作《在H Mart哭泣》在多大程度上帮助了你？

But I'm wondering what extent was writing Crying in H Mart?

它是如何帮助你的？

How did that help?

我知道，这个故事最初是《纽约客》上的一篇随笔，但你从一开始就意识到还有更多故事要讲，会写成一本完整的书吗？

And I know, you know, the story began as an essay in The New Yorker, but did you always know that that there was more to tell, that you were gonna write a full book?

当我为《纽约客》撰写这篇散文时，我已经开始了我认为可能是一本书的写作。

By the time I wrote the essay for The New Yorker, I had started what I thought might be a book.

但在那之前，大约两年前，我写过另一篇散文。

But before that, maybe two years before that, I wrote another essay.

我认为在撰写那篇散文的过程中，那是一次相对轻松地讲述故事的尝试，我意识到这个故事远比想象中更宏大，有许多情感上的问题需要梳理，而这些是通过写歌无法完成的。

And I think in the process of writing that essay, which was a much sort of, like, lighthearted attempt at at telling the story, I realized that there was such a a bigger story to tell and that there was a lot of unpacking to do sort of emotionally that I could that could not be accomplished through song songwriting.

就像，根本没有足够的空间来深入探索这段特定的经历。

Like, there there just wasn't enough real estate to explore this particular experience.

而且，是的，这确实是一个非常艰难的过程，但也在很多方面带来了疗愈。

And, yeah, I mean, it was a really difficult process, but it was also so healing in so many ways.

我觉得自己能够以更深刻的方式理解母亲，理解我们的关系，并学会原谅我生命中许多人，包括我自己。

I feel like I was able to really understand my mother in a much deeper way and understand our relationship and sort of find forgiveness for a lot of the people in my life, including myself.

我认为，为了写出我认为成功的回忆录——即一个公平、真实且具有挑战性的故事，让所有方面都能得到呈现——

And I think that in order to kind of write what I felt like would be a successful memoir in the sense of just like what is a fair story to tell, what is a a good and like challenging story to tell as if if you know, it felt like all sides were being represented.

为了做到这一点，你必须挑战自己，培养一种彻底的同理心：不仅要揭示身边人的真相，也要发现并坦露自己的缺点，并尽可能提供充分的背景。

And in order to do that, you sort of have to challenge yourself to have this kind of radical empathy where you're not only, like, revealing truths about the people around you, but finding what your faults are and exposing them as well and providing as much context as possible.

我认为这迫使我去理解和共情那些在刚开始讲述这个故事时我可能并不理解的人。

And I think it forced me to have empathy for and and relate to people that maybe I I didn't at the in the beginning of of the telling of this book.

你觉得分享这么多个人关系是一个艰难的决定吗？

Did you feel like it was a difficult decision to share so much of your personal relationships?

我想，这大概是作家的困境，对吧？

Like, I guess it's the writer's dilemma, isn't it?

为了讲一个真实的故事，你有时不得不分享超出自己舒适区的内容。

You know, to tell an authentic story, you kind of have to share more than you're comfortable with sometimes.

所以我只是想知道，这段关系如此私密，而你又如此坦诚，这正是它如此动人的原因。

So I'm just wondering, it's such a personal relationship and you're so honest, which is what makes it so beautiful.

但我很好奇，对你来说，这有多难？

But I'm I'm wondering how how difficult was that for you?

我觉得这正是我一直以来作为艺术家的类型。

I feel like that is just, like, the type of artist I've always been.

我觉得我几乎感觉无法做到。

Like, I think that I almost feel like I can't.

我所能提供的只有这种诚实，而这正是我感觉最自在的方式。

All I have to offer is that type of honesty, and it's what I almost feel the most comfortable with.

在写这本书的过程中，我有时会停顿下来，思考我是否无意中强化了某种负面刻板印象，或者是否透露得太多了。

And it was sort of while I was writing the book, if there were moments of pause where I was like, am I accidentally perpetuating some kind of negative stereotype or am I, like, revealing too much?

我不断提醒自己：如果这是真实的，并且尽可能公平、诚实地呈现，那又怎么会是错的呢？

I kept kind of going back to, like, well, how can it be wrong if it's just honest and if it's as fairly presented as possible and as it's honestly presented as possible and then then how can it sort of be wrong?

当然，在书的不同部分，我确实有过一些停顿和犹豫。

I mean, were certainly moments of pause in in certain in different parts of the book that I had.

实际上，彼得在我写作时给了我很好的建议：先写出来，之后再决定是否要分享这些内容。

And actually, Peter had really wonderful advice while I was writing, was just to write it and sort of decide later if that was something that I wanted to share.

而大多数情况下，经过编辑、搁置和重新审视后，我发现那些最想分享的正是这些内容。

And and more often than not, it was something after, you know, editing and sitting on it and returning to it was something that I felt was the most important to share.

我认为，往往最让你恐惧的事情，恰恰是人们最期待读到的部分，因为它们有些禁忌、有些奇特，或者让人迫切想找到共鸣。

I think oftentimes the most sort of the things that bring you the most fear are the things that people are the most excited to to finally get to read because it's something that's some somewhat taboo or or somewhat strange or someone's dying to to relate to someone about.

因此，对我来说，把这些细节都包含在书中非常重要。

And so it felt important to me to include all of those details in the book.

而且，是的，我立刻意识到这是我和母亲关系中非常重要的部分。

And, yeah, I mean, I knew right away that was a really important part of my relationship with my mother.

我认为，某种程度上，这就像我在证明，尽管我们的关系有时充满动荡，但我们之间确实有着深厚的爱。

I think that in a way, it was like me proving that even though our relationship was so tumultuous at times, that there was like a a real deep love between us.

我的意思是，我们两人之间有一种难以言喻的深刻联系。

I mean, was like an inexplicably profound connection that the two of us had.

我觉得大多数女儿和母亲之间都有这种关系，我的意思是，我们可能彼此伤害，但同时也拥有这种无可比拟的纽带。

And I think most daughters and mothers have that kind of like I mean, we can be so evil to one another but we can also we also have this this completely unparalleled bond.

我感觉

I I I feel

你觉得你的人生充满了双重性，既是作家又是音乐人。

like you you live such a duality in life both as an author and a musician.

我想这种真诚和脆弱或许是两者之间的共同点，但日本早餐时期的米歇尔和作家米歇尔有什么不同呢？

I guess that honesty and the vulnerability is what maybe ties the two, but how different is Japanese Breakfast Michelle to author Michelle?

我觉得作家米歇尔更聪明，也更清醒。

I feel like author Michelle is smarter and more, like, sober person.

是的

Yeah.

我觉得日本早餐版的我，就是更……我不知道怎么说。

I feel like like the Japanese Breakfast self is just, like, more I don't know.

那是我更直觉的一面。

It's, a more intuitive part part of me.

我觉得我作为作家所戴的帽子，可能更经过深思熟虑，也更严肃一些。

I think I the the hat that I wear as a writer is is something that's a bit more considered and and serious maybe.

但我认为我的两个人格都比真实的我稍微更温暖一点。

But I think both of my personas are, like, kind of slightly slightly more wholesome than I actually am.

我太喜欢这一点了。

I love that.

你在书里提到，你妈妈不赞成你组乐队，在你第一场演出后告诉你：我只等着你放弃这个。

You tell us in the book that your mom wasn't happy with you being in a band and telling you after your first gig, I'm just waiting for you to give this up.

而今天，你已经是格莱美提名的艺术家了。

Like, today, you're a Grammy nominated artist.

你的书是《纽约时报》畅销书。

Your book is a New York Times bestseller.

它被列入了巴拉克·奥巴马2021年最爱的书籍名单。

It was on Barack Obama's favorite books of 2021.

你想象过你妈妈今天会如何回应你的成功吗？

How do you imagine your mom would have responded to your success today?

我的意思是，毫无疑问，她会为你感到非常非常骄傲，但你觉得她会如何表达这份骄傲呢？

I mean, undoubtedly, she would have been very, very proud of you, but how do you think she would have expressed that?

我觉得她会以几种方式表达出来。

I think she would have expressed it in a couple of ways.

我的意思是，内心深处，我认为她会为我感到无比骄傲，我仍然希望她能亲眼看到这一切。

I mean, deep down, I think she would be extremely proud of me and I still wish that she could could see it.

但我想她会说：我的包在哪？

But I think that she would say, where is my bag?

我觉得她会期待我在这个时候给她买一个奢侈品包。

I I think she would expect me to have bought her, like, a luxury bag at this point.

那会是第一件事

That would be, like, the first thing

对。

Right.

在清单上。

On on the list.

但我想她，你知道的，像任何一位母亲一样，会不断给我压力，总会催我再接再厉，比如‘你提名了格莱美，但你没赢啊。’

But then I think she, you know, like any mom, she's, like, also constantly, like, pressuring she would constantly be pressuring me for for more, you know, like, oh, you got nominated for Grammy, but it's not like you won.

所以

So

接下来呢？

what's next?

你打算怎么做得更好？

How are gonna do better?

对。

Right.

这太有趣了。

That's so funny.

《在H Mart哭泣》要拍成电影了，而你也深度参与了编剧工作，还负责了配乐创作。

So there's a film version of Crying in H Mart, but you've been quite involved in the screenwriting process as well as writing the score.

我觉得某种程度上，你的音乐事业和写作事业正在交织在一起。

I feel like in some ways, like, your music career is intertwining with your writing career.

你能跟我们说说这部电影吗？这个过程对你来说是什么样的？

Like, what can you tell us about the film and, like, how's that process been like for you?

以视觉化的方式去看待它，或者开始想象它，一定很不一样吧？

It must be quite different to see it kind of in a in a visual sense or start to imagine it in that way?

我写了剧本，之后经过了几轮修改。

I wrote the script, and it went through a few revisions.

这个过程非常有趣。

And it was a really fun process.

我大学时学过电影和写作，这是我真正热爱的媒介。

I mean, I studied film in college, film and writing, and it's it's a medium I'm really passionate about.

我真的很喜欢学习新的媒介，并在其中找到自己的声音。

And it was a real I I really love to learn about new mediums and, like, to find my voice within them.

所以我特别享受将这些元素融合在一起的过程，找到那些我非常熟悉的人物的声音，并讲述一些书中未能充分呈现的故事片段，重新回顾它们。

And so I really enjoyed that element of of of bringing it together and and finding the voices of characters of people that you know really well and sort of telling parts of the story that maybe didn't really get to be told in in the book and and revisiting it.

但这也相当困难，因为这是我第一次以另一种媒介重新讲述这个故事，不得不与如此多不同的人进行密集合作，这感觉真的很奇怪。

But it was also kind of hard to it was the first time that I sort of retold the story in a different medium, and it was really odd to, like, have to collaborate so intensely with with so many different people.

这是一个完全不同的行业，我认为它让我意识到，相比之下，音乐和出版的世界其实要小得多，就像一个庞大到令人震惊的怪物。

It's just such a different industry that I think that it made me you know, I mean, it's it's a really interesting industry to have insight into, but it also made me really appreciative of, like, how much smaller in a way the world of music and publishing can be compared to this, like, completely gigantic monster.

但我觉得这个行业的魅力就在于，它是艺术巅峰，每个人都能以某种方式参与这种媒介，而未必每个人都能像参与音乐那样参与其中。

But I think that that's what's so appealing about that industry is that it's kind of the the top of the artistic mountain where, like, everyone sort of can engage with this medium in a way that maybe not everyone can with music and and and

书。

books.

明白了。

Okay.

在结束之前，我必须再问你一些关于食物的问题。

So now as we wrap up, I have to ask you some more questions about food.

我跟你说过，我简直着迷了。

Like, I I told you I was obsessed.

如果我去你家做客，会在你的厨房橱柜里看到哪些食物和零食呢？

And if I were to visit your apartment, what kind of food and snacks would I find in your kitchen cupboards?

那你现在终于买到正确的海苔了吗？

And do you finally have the right seaweed?

其实我并没有买到正确的海苔。

I don't have the right seaweed, actually.

我原本以为在韩国会更容易买到，但现在反而更混乱了，因为超市里的选择多得让人眼花缭乱。

And I thought it might be easier in Korea, but now it's kind of like mixed up because there's just like even more options at the grocery store.

所以我总是买错海苔。

So I keep buying the wrong seaweed.

我现在住在北京，所以我的橱柜跟以前很不一样。

My cupboard is really different right now because I'm living in Seoul.

这里居然有特别奇怪的墨西哥食物。

They have very bizarre Mexican food here.

所以，好吧。

So Okay.

你其实很难直接买到罐装豆子。

You can't really buy, like, cans of beans very readily.

所以，奇怪的是，我柜子里居然有干豆子，这在美國我一般不会备这种东西。

So, like, weirdly, I have, like, dried beans in my cupboard, which is not something that I would generally have in The US.

但另一方面，这也很棒，因为我们就住在名叫 Mangwon Shijiang 的传统露天市场旁边。

But, yeah, it's also really great because we live right next to this sort of outdoor old school market called Mangwon Shijiang.

所以我们能买到各种泡菜、不同种类的配菜、很多小蔬菜、小菜，还有腌制的肉类，都是从这个小市场买的。

And so we've able to, like, buy all sorts of, like, kimchi and different kinds of banchan and, like, lots of small, like, vegetables, side dishes, and, like, marinated meats from this from this little market.

能跟那些老奶奶们聊聊天，买点贝类、各种蔬菜之类的东西，真的特别温馨。

So it's very it's a very sweet thing to get to, like, converse with all the old ladies and, like, buy shellfish from them and and different vegetables and stuff like that.

所以，离那儿只有五分钟步行路程，真的很不错。

So, yeah, it's nice being, like, five a five minute walk from there.

你的演出需求清单上都有什么？

What's on your tour rider?

我很好奇你的巡演需求清单上都有什么。

I'm curious what's on your tour rider.

这很难办，因为那些你想要的东西，你并不每天都想吃。

It's hard because like the things that you want, like you don't want them every day.

实际上，我们的萨克斯手要求的是来自特定面包店的本地酸面包。

Actually, one thing that our saxophone player requests is like local sourdough bread from like specific bakeries.

哦，而且我们得提前几天就把这些面包寄过去。

Oh, And that's sending them in like a few days before.

我们现在在城里。

We're in the city.

我通常会要求提供一些本地的辣酱。

I normally I ask for like a local hot sauce.

天啊，我在面包上最喜欢越辣越好了。

Oh my On my bread, I love the spicier the better for me.

所以这对我来说是个很重要的需求。

So that's like a big one.

其余的就很简单了。

And then the rest is really simple.

就是蔬菜条、鹰嘴豆泥、一些姜汁和果汁，还有薯片。

It's like veggie sticks and hummus and some ginger shots and juices and then crisps.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

姜汁。

Ginger shots.

这个周末我要请朋友来吃晚饭。

I've got friends coming over for dinner this weekend.

经过这次对话，我感觉受到启发了。

And after this conversation, I'm feeling inspired.

你觉得有哪些简单的韩国菜我可以在家做吗？

What are some easy Korean dishes that you think I could make at home?

我觉得炒年糕很容易做。

I feel like tteokbokki is pretty easy to make.

我太迷恋了。

I'm obsessed.

是的。

Yeah.

在市场里，他们有那种特别粗的。

In the market, this is like a they have these, like, really fat ones.

它们叫卡拉特饼。

They're called karate tteok.

它们基本上就是你平时买到的那种的两倍宽、两倍长。

And, like, they're basically just, like, twice the width and, like, length of the of the ones that you usually get.

所以我通常就烤一下，然后配芝麻油和酱油吃。

And so I usually just, like, bake those and and eat them with like sesame oil and soy sauce.

但我觉得如果你请朋友来，做辣年糕非常简单，又辣又好吃，配饮料很棒。

But I feel like if you're having friends over, tteokbokki is like a really easy thing to make and it's like nice and spicy and good with drinks.

好吃。

Yum.

好的。

Okay.

我得试试。

I gotta do that.

米歇尔，非常感谢你加入我们。

Michelle, thank you so much for joining me.

祝你在首尔一切顺利。

Good luck in Seoul.

我非常期待看到今年你最终会产出什么作品。

I can't wait to read what eventually comes out of this year for you.

对于正在收听的朋友们，如果你们想了解更多，我们在 service95.com 准备了歌单和阅读清单，我们对此感到非常感激。

And for those who are listening, who want even more, we have a playlist, and we have a reading list for you on service95.com, which we're really, really grateful for.

米歇尔，真的非常感谢你。

Michelle, thank you so much.

和你聊天真是太愉快了。

It's been so lovely having you.

谢谢您写了《在H Mart哭泣》。

And thank you for Crying in H Mart.

感谢您的坦诚，以及如此真诚地分享自己，让我们能够阅读并产生共鸣。

Thank you for your honesty and for putting so much of yourself out there for us to to read and connect with.

这真的非常美好。

It's really beautiful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢您阅读这本书，并邀请我做客。

Thank you so much for reading it and for having me.

谢谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

别忘了，每个月都会新增一些剧集，与这些存档剧集一同上线。

Don't forget, there are brand new episodes added every month alongside these archive episodes.

我们即将迎来几位非常出色的作者，我相信你们一定会喜欢。

We've got some amazing authors coming up that I just know you'll love.

请确保关注Service95读书俱乐部播客，以免错过任何一期节目。

Make sure you're following the Service95 Book Club podcast so you never miss an episode.

如果你喜欢这期节目，为什么不给我们留个评价呢？

And if you love this one, why not leave us a review?

非常感谢你的收听，我们下期再见。

Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time.