夏季启动系列：让储蓄更轻松

你好。

Hello.

我的名字是娜塔莎·纳巴努加·班布雷特。

My name is Natasha Nabanunga Bamblett.

我是一名自豪的尤塔尤塔、库奈、沃尔普里和瓦朱里女性。

I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kurnai, Wolpuri, and Wadjuri woman.

在我们开始《她有钱》播客之前，我想承认本播客录制所在地的原住民守护者——阿旺杰里土地，致敬长老、祖先以及即将接棒的下一代。

And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awundjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors, and the next generation coming through.

这个播客旨在建立联系、赋能他人、分享知识，并通过你们的故事，为当下带来改变，为未来留下持久影响。

As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing, and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow.

让我们开始吧。

Let's get into it.

她有钱。

She's on the money.

她有钱。

She's on the money.

你好，欢迎收听《她有钱》的特别附加集，这是一档为追求财务自由的千禧一代打造的播客。

Hello, and welcome to a bonus episode of She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom.

我是维多利亚·德宾，今天我们将带来一集非常特别的附加内容，探讨储蓄的心理学。

My name is Victoria DeBine, and today we have a very special bonus episode of the show that is looking at the psychology of savings.

我们还有一位非常特别的嘉宾。

And we also have a very special guest.

我的朋友莉莉·苏斯曼博士是一位社会科学家，同时也是Wiser公司的首席战略官。

My friend, doctor Lily Sussman, is a social scientist and the chief strategy officer at Wiser.

莉莉在哈佛大学的博士研究聚焦于决策、行为经济学以及外交政策决策中的心理学。

Lily's PhD research at Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral economics, and psychology and foreign policy decision making.

在她的职业生涯中，莉莉始终秉持着理解并促进人类全面繁荣的使命，涵盖财务、人际关系和心理福祉。

Throughout her career, Lily has been guided by a purpose to understand and address profound human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological well-being.

她正在帮助澳大利亚人实现有效且渐进的改变，使日常的金钱行为与更深层的价值观保持一致。

She is supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes in aligning everyday money behaviors to deeper values.

我认为，没有任何人比莉莉·苏斯曼博士更契合《她有钱》这档节目的理念了。

And I cannot think of something that aligns more to She's On The Money than doctor Lily Sussman.

作为首席战略官，莉莉从零开始构想了如今的Wiser，我（或者我们）非常高兴她今天能来到这里。

As chief strategy officer, Lily conceptualized Wiser today from scratch, and we are, or I am, super thrilled to have her here with us today.

莉莉，欢迎来到节目。

Lily, welcome to the show.

哦，谢谢你，维多利亚。

Oh, thank you, Victoria.

你知道我是这个社群的忠实粉丝。

You know that I'm a massive fan of this community.

我对我们要讨论的话题以及这个社群所关心的一切都充满热情。

I'm super passionate about what we're talking about and everything this community cares about.

所以今天能和你聊聊财务健康，我感到非常荣幸。

So it's really wonderful to be here today talking with you about financial health.

我特别兴奋能欢迎你来到节目，因为这可能对所有听众来说都很新颖，但你为此已经埋头苦干了好几年，我甚至有机会签署保密协议，早在一年多前就被纳入其中，和你讨论这个项目，并参与其中。

I feel like I am so excited to welcome you to the show because this might sound really new to everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this for literally years, and I even got the opportunity to sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally more than a year ago to talk to you about this and, you know, play a little role in it.

我真的很高兴它终于上线了，而且我由衷地兴奋，因为我百分百认同驱动你的所有理念。

And I'm just so glad that it is launched, And I'm just honestly so excited because I a 100% identify with everything that drives you.

所以，Lily，我们先从金钱压力说起吧。

So, Lily, let's start off with money stress.

你把金钱和财务压力描述为‘最后的禁忌之一’。

You describe money and financial stress as, quote, one of the last taboos.

你认为为什么我们仍然很难向朋友和家人敞开心扉谈论财务压力或金钱问题呢？

Why do you think it's still so hard for us to open up about financial stress or talk about money with our friends and family?

是的。

Oh, yeah.

这个问题问得太好了。

Such a good question.

在我们的文化中，金钱是一个巨大的禁忌。

Money is such a big taboo in our culture.

全国性调查显示，我们实际上更愿意和朋友谈论其他几乎所有话题，比如政治、宗教，甚至成瘾、种族、婚姻矛盾、性生活。

National surveys have shown that we're actually more comfortable talking with our friends about virtually anything else like politics, religion, even things like addiction, race, marital discord, sex.

我们甚至会不遗余力地回避这个话题。

We'd actually go to great lengths to avoid the subject.

有一项调查显示，几乎有三分之一的人宁愿忍受两小时的堵车，或在大庭广众下讲话，也不愿谈论金钱这个禁忌话题。

There was a survey done that showed that almost a third of us would rather sit through two hours of traffic or speak in front of a large audience than have to discuss this taboo subject of money.

这很荒谬，因为普通人每天都会私下多次为此担忧。

And it's crazy because the average person is secretly worrying about it multiple times a day.

数据显示，近一半的澳大利亚人经常为金钱问题感到压力。

And the evidence shows that nearly half of Australians are regularly stressing about money.

但一提起这个话题就特别尴尬，对吧？

But it's just so awkward to bring up, right?

想象一下，你正和朋友一边喝酒一边大笑，下一秒，有人突然提到今晚的花费或他们的储蓄计划。

Imagine one minute you're with friends and you're laughing over drinks, and then the next minute, someone brings up the cost of the evening out or their savings plan.

气氛一下子就跌到谷底，全没了。

And the mood just like, oh, it just plummets and chill.

在我家可不会这样，朋友。

Not in my house, my friend.

从不。

Never.

在我家不会这样。

Not in my house.

我觉得这很有趣，因为你提到人们宁愿堵车，而你现在对话的这个群体，实际上就是一边堵车一边听理财播客。

I feel like it's funny because you said people would rather sit in traffic, and the community you're talking to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to money podcasts.

所以我们可能不太能感同身受，但我感觉其他所有不在这个‘她谈钱’社区里的澳大利亚人，都会说：我真宁愿去堵车。

So we might not be able to super resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian though that's not in the she's on the money community is like, I would literally rather sit in traffic.

而我们这个社区的人却会说：哦，当我们堵车时，我们就是在做这个。

And then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic, that's what we're doing.

没错。

Exactly.

但正是这一点让这个社区如此特别。

But that's what makes this community so special.

特别。

Special.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们一起打破这个禁忌。

Because we're together breaking the taboo.

但我觉得，你知道，关于普通人对在社交场合谈论金钱的舒适度的调查，数值非常低。

But I think, you know, the surveys around the average person and their level of comfort talking about money socially is very, very low.

而且这非常尴尬，很难开口谈论，因为我们生活在一个社会中，有时我们会感到自己的价值似乎与我们的财富、外表的富有程度有关，甚至以此为依据。

And it's so awkward, and it feels hard to talk about because we live in a society where sometimes we're made to feel like or we have this implicit norm that our self worth is somehow related or even based on how much money we have, how rich we look.

仍然存在很多关于自己没有周围人那么多钱的羞耻感，害怕如果我们经济上跟不上，就会被认为不那么被重视或不属于这个群体，这使得无论你是钱多的朋友还是钱少的朋友，都很难与朋友谈论这个话题。

And there's a lot of shame still around not having as much money as those around us, fearing that we're somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard to talk about with friends whether you're the friend with more money or the friend with less money.

那你认为我们为什么还会这样呢？

Why do you think we still like that, though?

我只是真的想知道，当然，我处于一个非常优越的位置，但为什么这仍然这么尴尬？

I just genuinely you know, obviously, I'm in a very privileged position, but, like, why is it still so awkward?

为什么我们会感受到这种情绪？

Like, why are we feeling this way?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的问题。

It's such a good question.

我只是觉得，我们从小就被灌输了一种潜移默化的规范。

I just think there's this implicit norm that we've been raised with.

对吧？

Right?

钱等于价值，但事实并非如此。

That money equals worth, but it's not.

我认为还存在第二种隐藏的规范，即我们似乎要为自己的经济状况负责，好像一切不如意都是我们的错。

And I think there's also this second hidden norm that somehow we're sort of responsible for how we're doing financially, like it's our fault if things aren't going well.

但实际上，无论是外部还是内部，外部都有我们无法控制的系统性原因。

But actually, you know, both externally and internally, externally, there are systemic reasons outside of our control.

比如性别薪酬差距，你经常提到的这一点——更多女性从事护理类职业，而这些职业通常报酬较低；还有宏观经济环境变化带来的挑战、家庭历史、以及像新冠疫情、失业、离婚、疾病等意外情况。

And there are things like the gender pay gap, things you talk about a lot, the fact that more women do caring professions, which often pay less, challenges from a changing macroeconomic environment, our family histories, unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness.

我们生活中有太多无法掌控的事情，却会深刻影响我们的经济状况。

So many things happen to us we don't control that they can impact our financial lives.

而在内心层面，我们从未被教导过关于金钱习惯及其背后的心理学。

And then internally, we were never taught about money habits or the psychology behind them.

因此，我们的金钱行为通常是自动化的，这并不是我们的错，而是因为我们的大脑运作方式如此。

And so our money behaviors are typically on autopilot and they're not our fault because of the way our brains work.

所以我们不得不在摸索中经历这一切，常常不公平地责备自己，感到羞愧和内疚。

And so we have to experience sort of muddling through all of that, and we're often blaming ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, feeling responsible.

谁愿意和朋友谈论这些呢？

And who wants to talk about that with friends?

我的意思是，我愿意。

I mean, I do.

你愿意。

You do.

我们有必要这么做。

We need to.

这太重要了。

It's so important.

是的。

I do.

不过我们真的很酷。

We're really cool, though.

我们真的很酷。

We are so cool.

我觉得我们上学时成绩很好却没朋友，现在就变成了这样。

I feel like we we excelled at school and had no friends, and this is where we've ended up.

所以我们才找到了彼此。

And that's how we found each other.

你知道吗？

Well, you know what?

我觉得我们小时候当书呆子时没朋友，

I think not having friends earlier when we were nerd eight

我当时忙着搞这个。

I was busy building this.

你知道吗？

You know what?

永远都不晚，我觉得你是个连接高手，而这里是一个让人归属、能打破禁忌的社区。

It's never too late, and I think you're an expert connector, and you're you know, this is a community where people belong and can break the taboo.

我认为打破金钱禁忌的解药至关重要，因为我们都说过，真相会使人自由。

And I think the antidote to that money being taboo is so key because, you know, we all say the truth will set you free.

对吧？

Right?

作为社会性生物，我们天生渴望连接与归属。

And we're also hardwired as social beings for connection and belonging.

所以我们不想独自默默挣扎。

So we don't want to struggle in silence privately.

但我们必须意识到，仍然存在一种禁忌，即金钱 somehow 等同于价值，而我们不公平地责备自己。

But we have to just recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow equates with worth and that we unfairly blame ourselves.

重要的是开始以不同的视角看待金钱——它只是实现我们想要的生活的一种资源，仅此而已。

And it's just really important to see start seeing money differently that, you know, it's a resource to live life how we want, and that's all it is.

我们可以改变它，让它变得更好。

And we can change it and make it better.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

当然。

Absolutely.

你之前提到过一件事，这正是我在我们社区里经常强调的。

You touched on something before that I obviously harp on about in our community.

你说这可能和我们的成长经历有关，而‘她关于金钱’这一理念的核心正是深刻理解自己的金钱故事，并做出与价值观一致的决定。

You said it might be how we grew up, and a really big part of the She's On The Money message is sharing the importance of really understanding deeply your money story and then making decisions that really align with your values.

我觉得我的社群成员已经听过我无数次这么说。

I feel like my community's heard me say that a million times.

我觉得每当我被问到问题时，我都会说：这取决于你的价值观。

I feel like every question I get asked, I'm like, well, it depends on your values.

当金钱故事被介绍给我们时，我们似乎被这个概念震惊了，因为我们以前从未听说过。

And then when money stories are introduced to us, we seem to be shook by this concept because we've never heard of it before.

那么，你认为为什么会这样？为什么我们中很少有人意识到深入理解自己的金钱故事有多么重要？

So, like, why do you think that is, and why do you think that not many of us know how important our money stories are to understand deeply?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，心理学以及管理我们的健康和行为，对我们的幸福感至关重要，但学校根本不会教授这些内容。

You know, psychology and managing our health and behavior, they're so foundational to our well-being, but they're not taught in school at all.

探索我们的价值观、行为以及背后的心理机制，根本不是我们自然而然会去做的事情。

And exploring our values and our behavior and the psychology behind them is just not something we naturally do.

对吧？

Right?

我们刚刚谈到，对很多人来说，金钱仍然是一个禁忌话题，被刻意回避。

And we just talked about how money is still taboo for so many of us and hushed up.

而文化却完全将金钱误解为仅仅是关于数字的问题。

And the culture has completely misrepresented money as about being about numbers.

那么，我们的信念、情绪或价值观与它有什么关系呢？

So what would our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do with it?

如果你想掌控自己的财务，那些过去和现在通常被认为必要的东西包括知识和实用技能。

If you want to get on top of your finances, the things that were and often still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills.

比如人们会谈论预算、减少开支、增加储蓄、投资和积累财富。

Like people talk about budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, growing your wealth.

这就是你要怎么做。

Here's how you do it.

但问题是，知识虽然是必要的，却不足以促成行为改变。

But the problem is that knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for behavior change.

所以当我们遇到困难或想做得更好时，我们习惯性地想：我还需要哪些更多信息？

So when we're struggling or we want to do better, we're used to thinking, okay, well, what more information do I need?

而不是去探究究竟是什么导致了这种困难，比如我所经历的表象之下真正的原因是什么，真正的解决方案又是什么。

Rather than going and try to figure out what's causing the struggle, like what's actually underneath what I'm experiencing and what's the real solution.

真正的解决方案从来都不是关于变得更理性、更擅长数学，或者获取更多的金钱知识。

The real solution is always around it's not about being more rational or more mathy or getting more money knowledge.

这实际上是要更清楚地了解我们的心理、习惯以及背后所有行为的脑内深层机制。

It's actually about getting clearer on our psychology and our habits and the underlying stuff that's happening in our brains that's behind it all.

我们需要理解塑造这些行为和情绪的背景，还要深入探索我们的价值观和金钱故事，而这些都不会自动发生，对吧？

So we need to understand the context that's creating the behaviors and the feelings, And we need to get into our values and money stories, none of which happens on its own, right?

是的，我们从未被教导过要这样做。

Yeah, We just are not taught to do that.

在日常生活中，我们从不这么做，因此我们不理解金钱也就不足为奇了。

We don't do that in everyday life, so it's no surprise that we don't understand money.

我们不明白自己为什么以这种方式管理、花费和思考金钱。

We don't understand why we're managing and spending money and thinking about money the way that we do.

但幸运的是，我们的文化中正越来越多地出现类似这样的对话，它们正在产生切实影响，人们也越来越认识到：为什么我们的价值观和心理如此重要，以及当我们打开银行App或查看交易余额时所看到的，与那些常常隐藏的习惯，以及其背后的心理之间，究竟存在怎样的关系。

But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one in our culture that's really having an impact and there's growing recognition of why is it that our values and our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between, you know, what we see when we open up our banking app or transaction balances and our habits, which are often hidden, and then psychology underneath that.

对。

Yeah.

这太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

我觉得我们很多人都从小带着一个潜在的假设长大，认为一美元加两美元等于三美元，钱就是这样运作的。

I feel like so many of us have grown up with this underlying assumption that one dollar plus $2 equals $3 and that's how money works.

但事实上，钱真正关乎的是行为、想法和感受，以及这些美元所引发的交易。

And really it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings and the transactions that those dollars create.

这才是钱的真正含义，而我总觉得我们很多时候只想到实际的硬币或纸币，但这在我们的社会中并不是钱的本质。

That's what money is about and I just think so many times we just think about the actual coins or the actual notes and that's actually not what money is in our society.

钱驱动着许多不同的事情，而我知道，你对大脑、心理学和行为改变有着极其强烈的热情，你刚才也提到了这一点，所以我想知道，我们该如何改变自己的习惯？

It drives so many different things and we know or I know deeply that you are so wildly passionate about the brain and psychology and behavioral change And you mentioned it just before, so I wanna know, like, how do we change our habits?

我们究竟该怎么做？

How do we actually do this?

因为很多人都觉得这太难了。

Because so many of us find it so hard.

为什么？

Why?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我认为这个问题非常重要，不仅在财务健康领域，而且在整体的预防性健康方面也是如此。

Well, you know, I think that's such an important question, not just in, our area of financial health, but of course, overall, right, in preventive health.

行为改变是预防性健康领域的圣杯。

Behavior change is the holy grail of preventive health.

关于行为改变，它确实是可能的，但并不容易。

The thing about behavior change is that it's definitely possible, but it's not easy.

它不会自然发生。

It doesn't happen naturally.

我们的大脑被设计为节约能量，建立习惯，以避免不断做出不必要的决定。

So our brains are designed to conserve energy and create routines so that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions.

这意味着我们的大脑被设计为进入自动驾驶模式。

And that means our brains are designed to go on autopilot.

因此，习惯就是我们无需多想就能做的事情。

So that's what habits are, things that we do without thinking too much about them.

但这并不是我们的错。

And that is not our fault.

这正是我们的大脑设计和进化的方式。

It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved.

但大多数人都有一些从过去养成的习惯，这些习惯处于自动运行状态，可能已经持续了数年甚至数十年，但它们可能已经不再对我们有益，而我们却难以察觉。

But most of us do have habits that we've developed from the past that are on autopilot and they may have been shaped over years or decades, but they may no longer be helpful to us and we can't really see that.

我们拥有的每一个习惯，都是在现实生活中形成的。

And every habit that we have is a habit we have in real life.

恰好我们在这个习惯上花钱，但这些习惯本质上是我们生活的一部分，比如点外卖、打优步或在线购物，我们所有的习惯加起来，一年通常会花费数百、数千甚至上万美元。

It happens to be that we spend money on this habit, but it's a habit that is in the context of our lives, like whether it's takeaway or taking Ubers or online shopping, every habit that we have typically adds up to hundreds or thousands or even 10,000 in the course of a year.

比如，一个非常常见的习惯——每天两杯拿铁，一年下来会超过3000美元；每周花100美元点外卖，一年也会超过5000美元。

So, for example, like a very common habit, like two lattes a day adds up to over $3,000 a year or a $100 of takeaway a week adds up to over $5,000 a year.

而在线购物的习惯，很容易一年就累积到15000美元。

And very easily, online shopping habits might add up to $15,000 a year.

对吧？

Right?

因此，一些我们几乎察觉不到的小型习惯性行为，由于大脑的设计本就如此，实际上决定了我们是拥有健康的财务缓冲和低压力，还是面临巨大的财务压力甚至感到不堪重负。

So a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that way by our brains is actually the difference between having a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed.

所以我认为第一步是明白，我们已有的习惯并不是我们的错，对吧？

So I think the first starting point is understanding that established habits we have are not our fault, right?

这是大脑塑造它们的方式。

It's how our brains design them.

但如果我们想更清晰地看清这些习惯并加以改变，就必须经历一个有意识的行为改变过程。

But if we want to see more clearly what those habits are and then change them, we have to go through a deliberate behavior change process.

正如我一开始所说，行为改变并非不可能，但也不容易，因为只有在获得支持并采用正确方法时我们才能做到，而正确的方法就是顺应大脑偏好的改变方式。

And behavior change is not impossible, as I said in the beginning, but it's not easy because we can do it when we're supported and we do it using the right methodology, which is working with how the brain likes to change.

我们已经形成了固定的神经通路，以及那些我们通常意识不到的习惯性想法和情绪反应。

So we have established neural pathways and we have habitual thoughts and emotional responses that are mostly unseen to us.

如果我们以正确的方式与大脑合作，就可以开始建立新的替代性神经通路，改变我们的自动思维和情绪。

And we can start building new alternative neural pathways and changing our automatic thoughts and emotions if we start working with the brain in the right way.

我们必须经历一种频繁但愉快的练习过程，建立起新的神经通路，最终获得恰当的多巴胺奖励。

We have to go through a process of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build a new neural pathway that ends in the right kind of dopamine hit.

这正是我们一直在努力的方向，而技术实际上可以帮助你实现日常或频繁的轻松练习，让行为改变变得容易得多。

And that's what we've been working on and that's something that technology can actually help with in order to give you that easy practice on a daily basis or frequent basis that makes behavior change much easier.

所以我认为总体要点是，这种改变不会自然发生。

So I think the overall point is just, it's not going to happen naturally.

我们天生并不是设计成能自然改变行为的，但这种改变可能实现吗？

We're not designed to change our behavior naturally, but can it be done?

当然可以做到。

Absolutely, it can be.

你之前提到，有些习惯是我们形成的，但可能已经不再适合我们了。我觉得在我们的社群里，我们都特别擅长一件事——虽然我们都不愿承认——那就是对自己拥有的习惯进行严厉的自我谴责：‘天啊，我真是太傻了’、‘我太笨了’、‘我简直不敢相信我居然做了这种事’，太糟糕了，然后我们选择逃避。我说这话并不是在指责我的社群，因为我自己也这么做。

You mentioned before, like, there are habits that we formed that might not be serving us anymore, and I feel like in our community, something that we're all really good at, we don't want to admit this though, but we're really good at is kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits that we have we're like oh my gosh I'm so silly or I'm so dumb or I cannot believe I did this oh it's the worst and we bury our heads in the sand and I say that in a way that isn't me going this is what my community does like I do it too.

我觉得，对自己过去在缺乏工具和资源时所做的决定进行苛责，这本质上是人类的天性。

I feel like it's innately human to always crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't have the tools and resources available to us to make the decision that we would have today.

但从你的角度来看，你可是这个领域的医生，是我见过的最聪明的女性之一。

But from your perspective, like you're literally a doctor in this space, you are one of the smartest women I have ever met.

跟我谈谈对自己保持自我同情有多重要，以及我们该如何知道什么时候该严格要求自己，什么时候又该对自己特别温柔？因为我觉得，作为人类——不只是女性，也不只是‘她理财’社群——我们在这方面常常做得非常糟糕。

Talk to me about how important it is to have a level of self compassion for yourself and like how do we know when to be tough but also when to be really kind to ourselves because I think that we're really bad at doing that sometimes just as the human race like not even just as women or just as you know the She's On The Money community.

我觉得每个人都会为过去的错误责备自己。

I feel like each and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我们确实会。

We do.

我们确实会。

We do.

我认为对自己要求严格是一种非常人性的做法。

I think it's a very human thing to do, to be tough on ourselves.

尤其是，结合我们之前讨论的内容，这也很合理——我们总觉得一切发生的事都该由自己负责，即使事实并非如此。

And, especially, it makes sense in light of what we're talking about earlier, how we feel like we're responsible for everything that's happened, even if that's not true.

我们并不是进化的设计师，没有选择过自己的原生家庭和成长环境，也没有选择过教育体系或社会结构的形态，从这个意义上说，我们其实并不该为此负责，但我们却有一种观念，觉得我必须对自己严格一点，我想变得更好，所以我不能对自己太宽容。

We are not the architects of evolution and how our brain was built, nor did we choose our families of origin and our upbringings and you know our education systems or the way the system is shaped, like we're actually not responsible in that way and yet we have this notion that okay, know, I feel like I need to be tough on myself, I want to get better at something so I can't afford to be self compassionate.

如果我对自己的态度温和一点，那就是放纵自己或偷懒，而我们总觉得对自己严厉，才是自律的表现。

If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being self indulgent or I'm being lazy and we feel like being tough on yourself, that's what discipline's about.

我需要自律。

I need to be disciplined.

我需要对自己严格要求。

I need to be tough on myself.

但事实上，这又是另一个误解，因为我们把自律和自我批评混为一谈。

But actually, it's another one of these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism.

它们根本就不是一回事。

They are actually not the same thing at all.

所有关于行为改变的研究都告诉我们，自我批评实际上会阻碍进步。

All the research on behavior change tells us that being self critical actually is detrimental to improving.

它并不能帮助你变得自律或取得进步。

It does not help you be disciplined and get better.

最有帮助的自律方式实际上包含善意、自我同情和积极强化。

The most helpful forms of discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement.

这很有趣，因为谈到钱的时候，我们说过它是个禁忌，被误解了，我们觉得自己有责任，对它有很多错误观念，觉得这是自己的错，但真正重要的是从自我同情开始，为自己创造一个情感上安全的空间，诚实地承认可能的不足，却不必过分担心被评判，因为我们给予自己的这种情感安全空间，才是激发改变勇气的起点。

So it's interesting because when it comes to money, we talked about how it's taboo, it's misunderstood, we feel responsible and there's all these kind of misconceptions about it and we feel like it's our fault, but it's actually really important to start with self compassion and start with making emotionally safe space for yourself to honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings, but without worrying too much about judgment because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what starts the courage to make changes.

对我来说，理解其中关键的一点是，我非常赞同你的观点，而且我认为这并不仅仅适用于女性。

And one of the key things for me to understand, and I'm very much with you, and I think this is not just something that applies to women, though.

虽然这一点在女性身上已被广泛记录，但男性也同样存在，那就是负面的自我对话，对吧？

It's certainly been well documented as something that applies to women, but also to men too, which is like negative self talk, right?

这种负面的自我对话常常在脑海中自动运行，有时你甚至都没意识到它的存在。

It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even realize is there.

但我们在自我对话中使用的具体语言，会产生巨大的影响。

But the specific language we use in our self talk makes a huge difference.

当我因为金钱问题感到压力时，如果我的自我对话是：‘我真是太不负责任了’，或者‘天啊，我在金钱上简直无可救药’。

If my self talk when I'm stressed about money is, Oh, I'm just so irresponsible or like, Oh God, I'm hopeless with money.

我真是个傻瓜。

I'm such an idiot.

这种语言，是把焦点放在了‘自我’上，而不是放在‘行为’上。

That language, that's a focus on the self rather than a focus on behavior.

关注行为，是指针对某个具体行为做出非常具体的反思。

A focus on behavior is something really specific about a specific behavior.

就像我昨晚没吃饭，却买了单。

It's like, I bought a round when I didn't eat last night.

我买这套西装是为了在工作中更自信，但我不确定它真的有帮助。

I bought the suit to feel more confident at work, but I'm not sure it's helped me.

我上班时还是觉得不自在。

I still feel funny at work.

这关注的是行为，对吧？

And that's a focus on behavior, right?

我们可能有同样的行为，对吧？

We can have the same action, right?

比如，我超支了，感觉很糟糕。

Which is like, oh, I overspent and I'm feeling bad.

但我的内心独白是什么？

But what's my self talk?

它是以消极的方式关注我自己，还是仅仅关注行为？

Is it focusing on myself in a negative way or is it just focusing on the behavior?

因为首先，关注行为实际上有助于行为改变，也符合所谓的自律和以积极方式对自己严格要求，而那种聚焦于自我、带有负面评价的内心对话，不仅无助于行为改变，反而会阻碍自律、自我严格要求和进步。

Because one, focusing on behavior is actually helpful for behavior change and makes sense for quote unquote discipline and being tough on yourself in a positive way versus negative self talk that focuses on the self is not helpful for behavior change and it actually gets in the way of discipline and being tough on self and improving.

所以内心对话非常重要，而自我关爱与同情心是改变的起点。

So self talk is super important, and self love and compassion is a starting point for change.

这真的很有道理，因为如果说‘天哪’。

It makes us so much sense because saying something like, oh my gosh.

我是最差的。

I'm the worst.

这根本没什么建设性。

Like, that's not constructive.

它并不能真正帮助你找到另一种行为方式，你只会想‘我是最差的’，到此为止，根本无从谈起；但如果你说‘这个行为最糟糕’，你就会想‘好吧，那我该怎么改进呢？’，我觉得就是这一步之差，完全说得通，而且我们很多人都有这种问题。前几天我和莉莉聊天时，一个朋友就说，是的，我知道你一直让我这么做，因为显然，你对‘她谈钱’这个话题不只是热情。

It doesn't actually create this ability to you know find a different behaviour right you just go I'm the worst full stop end of story like what are you even talking about whereas if you go this behaviour is the worst you go alright well what am I going to do about that and I feel like it's that next step and it just makes sense and so many of us are guilty for it and I was having this conversation the other day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like yeah I know you keep telling me to do these things Cause obviously, I'm not just passionate about money on She's On The Money.

当我周六晚上和闺蜜们喝着葡萄酒时，我才真正充满热情。

I'm passionate when I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night with my girlfriends.

我的天啊。

I'm like, my gosh.

所以这个小贴士，他们只是说：维多利亚，别说了。

So this hot tip, they're just like, Victoria, stop.

但前几天我向一位对自己非常苛刻的女性朋友提过建议。

But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really harsh on herself the other day.

我当时说，你为什么不把它们写下来呢？

I was like, why don't you just journal it out?

为什么不把所有这些想法都写出来？

Like, why don't you write all of these things down?

因为一旦你写下来，它们就会直勾勾地盯着你，也更容易应对。

Because once you've written it down, it just kind of stares you in the face and is a lot easier to combat.

她却说：哦，但维多利亚，写日记太无聊了。

And she's like, oh, but Victoria, journaling is so lame.

我就说：你需要摆脱这种想法，因为虽然我同意，写日记并不适合每个人。

And I was like, you need to move away from that because as much as I agree, like, journaling is not for everybody.

但它确实可以成为一个非常有建设性的活动：坦率地说，我就把所有想改变或调整的行为写下来，这样你就能结合你刚才说的，莉莉，去思考：这到底是针对行为，还是针对我自己？

It can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you know what, pragmatically, I'm just gonna write down all these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to reframe or change because then you can overlay what you've been saying, Lily, and go, well, is that actually about the behavior or is that about me?

因为如果问题出在我自己身上，那并没有帮助，我们需要从我们的语言中剔除这种想法，这样你才能直接看清，消极的自我对话是否构成了你叙事中的很大一部分——我认为我们很多人都会想，哦，不要有消极的自我对话。

Because if it's about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove that from our language and that's going to give you the ability to just directly see whether your negative self talk is a really big part of your narrative or not because I think so many of us will go, oh, don't have negative self talk.

直到你真正把这些话写在纸上摆在眼前，有时你根本意识不到它们的存在，而它们可能带来极大的伤害。

Until you actually have it staring at you on a piece of paper in front of you, sometimes you just don't even realize, and it can be so detrimental.

我向你保证，一旦你意识到自己正在对自己消极，并能重新调整或改写你与自己对话的方式，你就会成为一个更快乐的人。知道我能和你们分享这些热门建议，并与我们的社群共同交流，我感到无比开心。

I promise the second you realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can re frame that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself, you become such a happier human and it makes me so happy to know that I get to share you and all of your hot tips with our community.

想到我们正在讨论这些话题，我的内心就无比激动。

Like it makes my soul so excited that these are the conversations we're having.

我也是，我也是。

Me too, me too.

我想对大家说，这并不是你们的错，这些东西并不是与生俱来的。

And I just want to say to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff doesn't come naturally.

我们并不会天然地知道自己在想什么。

We don't just naturally know what we're thinking.

我们也不会天然地去写日记。

We don't naturally journal.

我们并不会天然地了解自己的心理。

We don't naturally know our own psychology.

我想，我们不能对自己有这种期待。

It's not something we can expect of ourselves, I guess.

这并不是因为我没做到这一点而产生的另一种失败。

It's not like another failing that I haven't already done this.

自我同情就是意识到：好吧，这就是我们大脑的构造，这就是我们行为背后的根源，但我们可以为此做些什么？我们能否寻求一些积极的帮助？

Self compassion is realizing like, Okay, this is how our brains are built and this is what's underlying our behavior, but what can we do about it and can we seek some active help?

你知道，这就是为什么我们一直在做我们所做的工作，并今天构建Wiser。

And you know, that's why we've kind of been doing the work that we've done and building Wiser today.

但最重要的是，不要对自己期望过高。

But it's so important to start with not expecting too much of yourself.

我完全同意。

I could not agree more.

好的。

Alright.

我们得先短暂休息一下，但休息结束后，我会和莉莉聊聊我们如何真正实现有意义的改变，所以别走开，各位。

We do have to go to a really quick break, but on the other side of the break, I'm gonna be talking to Lily about how we actually create meaningful change, so don't go anywhere, guys.

很期待。

Excited.

我们正在讨论与决策和行为经济学相关的所有内容，谈心理学和储蓄，也谈Wiser Today以及你们每天在工作中所做的事情。

We are talking about everything when it comes to decision making and behavioral economics, and we're talking about psychology and savings, and we're talking about Wiser Today and what you do with your work every single day.

我认为，你对金融素养和创造有意义改变的热情，丝毫不亚于我，甚至可能更强烈。

I would argue that you're just as equally passionate, if not more passionate, than I am about financial literacy and creating meaningful change.

我想，这正是我想重新开启对话的地方。

And I guess that's where I really wanna kick the conversation off again.

如果我们的社区中有听众，对行动与意图之间的脱节深有共鸣的话。

And if anyone in our community is listening and really resonating with the sense of, I guess, disconnect between actions and intent.

你能给我们一些实用的建议，帮助他们开始在生活中实现有意义的改变吗？

Can you give us some top tips on what might get them to start creating meaningful change in their lives?

是的。

Yeah.

你提到过意图和行动之间的差距。

You know, you mentioned this gap between intention and action.

首先，每个拥有人类大脑的人都存在意图与行动之间的差距。

And first of all, everyone that has a human brain has a gap between intention and action.

所以我们必须让这种现象正常化。

So we've got to normalize it.

并不是我们一想到要做某事，就能立刻付诸行动。

It's not like the minute we think we want to do something, we can just do it.

我们之前谈到过，拥有现在的习惯并建立相应的神经通路，并不是我们的错。

So we talked earlier about how it's not our fault that we have the habits and establish neural pathways that we do.

在学校里我们从未被教导如何管理这一点，更不用说人类大脑天生进化得让习惯难以察觉了。

We were not taught to manage this in school, not to mention the brain naturally evolved to make habits hard to see.

人们往往把无法改变无益的习惯或行为模式视为个人失败，比如：‘我以前试过，但没成功，所以我再也不相信自己能在这一领域或其他任何领域做到。’

And people tend to see it as a personal failure that they can't change unhelpful habits or patterns of behavior like, oh, I tried before, but I didn't succeed so I don't trust myself to do it in this area or any other area of my life.

大脑很容易陷入非黑即白的思维模式，比如：‘我犯了个错，或者偏离了轨道，那我还不如干脆放弃。’

And it's super common for the brain to engage in black and white thinking like, oh, I made a mistake or I fell off the wagon, so I might as well give up.

但事实上，如果我们想改变生活中的任何事情，我们是可以做到的。

But in reality, if we want to change anything in our lives, we can.

但改变并不是线性的，因为你必须与大脑合作，理解大脑是如何改变的。

But change is not linear because you have to work with the brain and understand how the brain changes.

例如，现有的习惯往往具有积极的功能，我们通常需要理解这些习惯背后更深层的需求。

So for example, existing habits, they serve a helpful function and usually we actually have to understand the deeper need that current habits are fulfilling.

比如，我买这么多新衣服或频繁去酒吧，是因为它给了我归属感或尊重感，还是只是为了寻求安慰？

Like am I buying all these new clothes or going to the bars a lot because it gives me a sense of belonging or respect or is it comfort?

我们习惯背后的深层需求，将帮助我们认清真正需要解决的问题。

The deeper needs behind our habits will help us realize what is it that we need to solve for.

然后我们可以开始以更健康的习惯来满足这些需求，同时不会给大脑带来太大负担。

And then we can start changing how we solve for those needs with possibly healthier habits but in a way that doesn't ask too much of our brains.

因此，一次只进行一点点小改变是有帮助的。

So it's helpful to do a little bite sized bit of change at a time.

我们都明白，如果试图极端节食或在两周内彻底改变所有消费行为，做出巨大的改变，是行不通的。

We all know that if we try to crash diet or change all of our spending behavior, make big changes really quickly in two weeks, it won't work.

我们想要快速的结果，但大脑的改变并不是这样的。

We want fast results, but that's not how the brain changes.

这太疯狂了，不是吗？

It's crazy, isn't it?

我们在《She's On The Money》里经常谈到这个话题，我想我以前在播客里也聊过，因为我对心理学着迷，这并不是偶然，我也曾学习过它。

We talk about this a lot in She's On The Money, and think I've spoken about it on the podcast before because I also am obsessed with psychology, like it's not an accident that I also studied it.

但我认为我们常常忘记的事情——而且我和你一年多前就聊过这个——人们忘了，作为人类，尽管现在是2022年，我们有公司工作，真的可以创造自己想要的生活，但骨子里我们仍然是带着生存模式的人，而生存模式极度倾向于舒适，因为舒适等于安全；如果舒适等于安全，那我们为什么要远离那些让我们感到安全的习惯呢？安全是身体最根本的需求，所以改变之所以如此令人不适，是因为你的身体在改变时会经历一种创伤：你会觉得‘天啊，我不安全了’，而你本质上是个需要安全的人——就像回到原始时代，离开洞穴，当然会感到焦虑，因为外面有风险。我觉得我们完全忘记了这一点，因为我们早已与这种本能脱节，这就是为什么行为改变如此困难，因为我们天生就不该轻易改变，只要改变会威胁到我们的生存。

But I think the thing that we forget and I think you and I were talking about this literally more than a year ago, people forget that as humans as much as it's 2022 and we have corporate jobs and like we literally can create the life we want to create, innately we are individuals who have survival mode still turned on and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort is equal to safety and if comfort is equal to safety why would we move away from those habits where we are so deeply connected to being able to be safe and safe is literally all our body wants so it makes sense that's why change is so uncomfortable because your body goes through a level of trauma to change it because you're literally like oh my gosh I'm not safe anymore and I'm actually a human that needs to be safe like go back to caveman area leave the cave, feel a little bit anxious of course because there are risks out there and I just think that we forget that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that and that's why behavioural change is so hard to make because we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

你知道，我们的习惯之所以形成，是有原因的，但这并不意味着这些原因至今仍然对我们有用。

You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, but that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us.

如果我们想改变，可以一次只专注于一个习惯，而不是试图改变所有与金钱相关的习惯组合。

So we can work on one habit at a time if we want to change rather than try to change the whole constellation of all our money habits.

我们可以练习一些微小的改变，这些改变有意识地带来多巴胺的愉悦感，从而为大脑建立正向强化循环，这正是《Wiser Today》的核心理念。

We can practice small little changes that intentionally then result in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop for your brain and that's what Wiser Today is about.

非常重要的是要接受非线性的进步，因为改变并不会像坐上一辆车后就一路顺遂。

And it's really important to make nonlinear progress because it just isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this wagon of change and then everything is just going to go easy.

真正有效且持久的改变从来都不是线性的，所以暂时偏离轨道，等准备好了再重新回来，完全是正常的。

Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear, so it's totally okay to fall off the wagon and then get back on when you're ready.

这实际上是大脑希望改变的自然方式。

That's actually a natural part of how the brain wants to change.

因此，你可以随着时间重新训练自己的大脑和行为，而关键在于，你必须在过程中感到愉悦，对吧？

And so you can retrain your brain and behavior over time, and the key to that is you have to feel good along the way, right?

很多人会想，那关于剥夺呢？

A lot of people think, Oh, what about deprivation?

我是不是必须改变并放弃我真正在乎的东西？

Am I going to have to change and give up what I really care about?

嗯，不，那样无法推动持久的改变。

Well, no, that's not going to drive sustainable change.

行为改变能否成功，关键在于你是否在过程中感到愉悦，是否能放下内疚，是否能接纳意图与行动之间的差距，并借助科学方法和基于证据的指导，以更轻松、小步daily的方式逐步缩小这种差距。

Behavior change succeeds if you're feeling good along the way, if you let go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention and action and you use science and get science based guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small bite sized daily way.

随着时间推移，学习心理学知识，回到你提到的日记练习——无论你使用什么方法，逐步发现并获得指导，看清自己内心真实的想法，意识到那些可能引发拖延或与我们真正目标不一致的思维模式。

And I think learning over time about psychology and going back to your journaling example, whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the guidance to do that what our thoughts are, just actually see what they are, realize what thoughts are running around in our heads that might be leading to inaction or actions that are not aligned with what we really want.

也许是因为缺乏自我效能感，比如不相信自己有能力实现目标或做出改变；又或是对想要改变的行为背后潜藏的信念和态度。

Maybe it's a lack of self efficacy, like our lack of a belief in our own ability to achieve our goals or change, or it's underlying beliefs and attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change.

比如，我们常说：‘我想多存点钱’，对吧？

Like sometimes we say, for example, oh, we want to save more money, right?

但如果我们深入探究，真正看待储蓄时，可能会发现它被关联上了‘剥夺感’。

But if we dig into it, how we truly are thinking about saving money, it might be associated with feelings of deprivation.

比如：我不想被剥夺。

Like, I don't wanna be deprived.

没人愿意被剥夺。

No one wants to be deprived.

十分之一。

One out of 10.

不推荐。

Cannot recommend.

没错。

Exactly.

但如果我对自己说，储蓄就是剥夺，这个念头一冒出来，你就得想想，这到底意味着什么？这个想法有帮助吗？

But if I'm if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that to myself that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought that comes up then, you know, what's that about and is that the helpful thought?

我们可能还会有类似的故事，比如：没应急基金应该也没多大关系，等老了再说吧。

And we might have a story likewise that says, okay, it's probably not that big of a deal if we don't have an emergency fund, like maybe it's something to do when you're older.

不管是什么样的故事，这些潜在的信念和态度都深藏在表面之下，很难察觉，但它们可能才是真正驱动我们行为的原因。

You know, whatever that story is, those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's really beneath the surface and it's hard to see, but it might be what's really driving our behavior.

所以我认为，意图与行动之间存在巨大差距，这其实非常正常。

So I think there's a lot of reasons why there's a very normal gap between intention and action.

这非常正常。

It's very normal.

我们都这样。

We all have it.

我们不该为此责备自己，但我们可以采取行动。

We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but we can do something about it.

所以跟我聊聊，为什么财务健康特别重要？

So talk to me a little bit about why financial health specifically is so important.

我的意思是，你之前提到过。

I mean, you touched on it before.

我们之前在谈基于行为的指导，还有背后的科学原理。

We were talking about, I guess, behavioral based guidance and we're talking about, you know, the science behind it.

所以，钱是答案吗？

Is, I guess, money the answer?

更多的钱是答案，还是别的什么？

Is more money the answer, or is it something else?

到底是什么在驱动这一切？

Like, what is driving that?

为什么要把财务健康放在首位？

Why should financial health be made a priority?

哦，这个问题问得太好了。

Oh, such a good question.

我觉得人们对它有很深的误解。

You know, I feel like it's so misunderstood.

财务健康之所以重要，是因为金钱就像健康、精力和时间一样，只是一种资源。

Financial health is important because money is just a resource like health, energy, and time.

它是我们必须去赚取、节约和使用的资源。

It's a resource we have to earn and conserve and use.

我们如何处理这种资源，会对我们的生活产生巨大影响。

And how well we deal with this resource just has a huge impact on our lives.

我们无法逃避它。

We can't escape it.

它对我们的幸福感和自我认知影响巨大，因为更多的钱并不是答案，金钱本身也不是答案，因为即使富人也必须面对这个问题，对吧？

It has a huge impact on our well-being, in our sense of self, because more money is not the answer because money itself is not the answer because even people who are rich still have to deal with this, right?

他们仍然需要应对如何使用和管理这一资源的问题。

They still have to deal with the problem of how to use and manage this resource.

这些问题并不会消失。

The issues don't go away.

财务健康本身就是健康和生活的一部分。

Financial health just is something that is a part of health and life.

我们在富裕但功能失调的家庭中可以看到这一点。

And we see that in wealthy dysfunctional families.

我们在彩票中奖者身上也能看到。

We see it in lottery winners.

已有大量研究证实，许多彩票中奖者在中奖后并没有变得更快乐。

It's well established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners do not become happier after they win the lottery.

甚至研究表明，在收入达到某个阈值以上时，人群的整体幸福感并不会继续提升，而这个阈值其实并不高。

And even the research shows that we don't become happier at a population level above a certain threshold of income, which isn't even that high.

确实如此。

It's really not.

我觉得这也很令人惊讶，因为如今在澳大利亚，别太当真这些统计数据，今天是你带来数据的，但澳大利亚人的平均收入现在大约在8万到8万2千美元左右，而这个数额正是幸福不再随收入增加而提升的临界点。

And I think it's so surprising as well because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics, you're the one coming to the table today with stats, but the average Australian income is now sitting at around 80 to 82 ish thousand dollars, and that actually is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing anymore after you reach that.

所以，你只要赚到平均收入，再怎么多赚也不会更幸福了。

So it's literally you earn the average amount and you aren't gonna get happier the more you earn.

这让我震惊，我认为这与我们之前关于安全与保障的讨论有关，因为这个收入水平足以让你吃饱穿暖、支付所有账单，确保你没有任何匮乏，超出这部分的收入固然很好、很特别，但并不会提升你根本的幸福感。我认为，在如今这样一个商业化的世界里，我们很多人都被误导了，以为更多的钱就意味着更多的幸福，因为显然包包、鞋子这些物质东西似乎会影响我们的心理健康，但其实并不会。

It blows my mind, and I think that that has something to do with going back to our conversation about safety and security because that's the amount of money that puts food on your table and makes sure all of your bills are covered and you're not deprived in any way so anything above and beyond that is great, it's special but it's not going to contribute to your underlying happiness and I think that so many of us have been tricked especially in such a commercial world now that more money is going to equal more happiness because obviously bags and shoes and all of these other things that are material somehow impact our mental health and they really don't.

真的太对了。

Oh, so true.

确实如此。

So true.

你知道吗，我们之前谈到过，看起来富有是一种隐性的社会规范。

You know, we talked about how looking rich is an implicit norm.

比如，看起来富有更好，但这并不意味着真正的幸福感会更高。

Like, it's better if you look rich, but that's not true from a real happiness level.

对吧？

Right?

研究表明，这并不正确。

The research shows not true.

不对。

No.

这听起来不够吸引人。

That's not sexy.

我们以前讨论过这个问题，就是那种看到别人穿着昂贵的衣服、戴着昂贵珠宝的想法。

It we've talked about this before, and it's just like this idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and wearing all the expensive jewelry.

我真的很困惑，前几天我在社交媒体上看到一个例子，忍不住笑了——有人发帖说他们买了一辆新车，还拍了张照片，车上系着一个大红丝带，我当时就想，天啊，我们居然在庆祝陷入债务，因为那辆车绝对不可能是全款买的，我敢肯定。

It baffles me right that I saw this on social media the other day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself somebody posted that they'd got a new car so like they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and it had this big red bow on it and I was like wow we're celebrating getting into debt because there's absolutely no way that that car was not financed from that individual, I just knew it.

我们庆祝的是背上债务，但从来没人会发帖庆祝自己做了第一笔投资、迈出了下一步，或者增加了养老金供款，因为这些事看起来不够酷，可我们却在庆祝别人欠债。

And we're celebrating taking on finance but nobody ever posts when they, you know, make their first investment or they are taking that next step or they're making additional superannuation contributions because that's not seen as sexy, but we're literally celebrating somebody going into debt.

大家都在评论，天哪。

Like everyone's commenting, oh my god.

恭喜。

Congrats.