EP 02: KissMeDeadlyDoll

欢迎收听《Shibari Study》播客。

Welcome to the Shibari Study podcast.

我是你们的主持人，Wicked Wren。

I'm your host, Wicked Wren.

今天，我们的嘉宾是KissMeDeadlyDoll。

Today, my guest is KissMeDeadlyDoll.

Doll在纽约的Tropes圈子里已经活跃了十多年。

Doll has been involved in New York Tropes scene for over ten years.

她曾在世界各地授课。

She's taught internationally.

她是个狂热的自虐爱好者。

She's an avid self tiger.

作为摄影师，她拍出的照片是我见过最古怪、最空灵的。

And as a photographer, she creates some of the weirdest, most ethereal photos I've ever seen.

Doll，很高兴你今天能来。

Doll, I'm so happy you're here.

我真是太荣幸了。

I'm so flattered.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

不用客气。

You're welcome.

我知道一件关于你的事，特别有意思。

So, I know something about you that is fascinating.

你上过时装学校。

You went to fashion school.

是的。

Indeed.

对吧？

Right?

没错，我确实上过。

Indeed, I did.

我管它叫一切的根源

I like to call it Did the root of all

你说这是万恶之源？

you say it's the root of all evil?

对。

Yeah.

我身上有好几处纹身都是以它为灵感的。

I have like tattoos based on it.

我所有的纹身都围绕这个主题，我都叫它们万恶之源。

Like all my tattoos are based on it and I call them the root of all evil.

你的纹身都是什么图案？

What are your tattoos?

一个是人体模特。

One is a dress form.

另一个是哥特风格的缝衣针，很多人以为是魔杖，其实不是，就是缝衣针。

The other is kind of a gothic sewing needle that people often think is like a a wizard wand, but it's not it's a sewing needle.

另一个是鞋楦。

The other one is a is like a shoe last.

挺有意思的。

They're that's fun.

你当时都做过些什么呢？

What were, like, some of the

你做了些什么东西？

things that you made?

我做过各种各样的东西。

I've made all all kinds of things.

我最早是从服装入手的，特别专攻裁缝工艺。

Like, I I started in apparel with, like, a specialty in tailoring.

我做过很多大衣和西装，还特别着迷于紧身胸衣，因为我喜欢那种被勒紧、几乎喘不过气的感觉。

So, like, I did a lot of coats and, like, suiting, and, I have a fascination with corsets because I like being crushed and suffocated.

不过，这说起来又是另一回事了。

But, you know, that's like a whole other thing.

你觉得你开始做紧身胸衣之类的东西，是不是跟你的性癖有关？

Do you think that maybe you got into corset making and things because of your kink interest?

绝对是的。

Oh, most definitely.

绝对是的。

Most definitely.

我小时候一直有个幻想，虽然可能不太适合在这儿说，但跟紧身胸衣、喘不过气，还有那种紧紧束缚的感觉脱不了干系，当然，最后还会达到高潮。

I have such a fantasy when I was growing up about well, it's probably not appropriate to talk about here, but it definitely had things to do with corsets and not being able to breathe very well and that kind of, like, tight bondage feel and then, like, of course, getting off.

所以就是这类事情。

So there's that kind of stuff.

我超喜欢。

I love it.

对。

Yes.

你还记得第一次看到这个是什么时候吗？

Do you remember the first time you saw that?

说实话，我想不起哪部电影或者类似的东西，但我确实偷偷看过我妈妈收藏的七十年代情色漫画，那些都太棒了。

I mean, I can't really think of, like, a movie or any kind of thing like that, but I definitely read my mom's, like, dirty graphic novels from the seventies, which were all Amazing.

全是那种被迫当弱女子的幻想情节，典型的七十年代不恰当风格。

Very much that kind of forced fantasy damsel, like, inappropriate seventies things.

所以，是这样的。

So, yeah.

你妈妈现在知道这事吗？

Does your mom know that now?

我不确定她知不知道，因为我总是偷偷把那些漫画带进卧室。

I don't know if she does, because I would kind of sneak them into my bedroom.

我太喜欢这个了。

I love that.

我知道你接触绳艺的方式和大多数人一样——去俱乐部，看到别人在玩，然后心里一震。

I know that you got into rope the same way most of us do, where you went to a club, and then you saw it happening.

你当时就想，天啊，我也想试试，对吧？

You're like, wow, I wanna do that, right?

对，就是这样。

Yes, exactly.

那一刻简直像顿悟了一样。

That was it was like an epiphany.

有时候你看到某样东西，就会觉得，这不就是我一辈子都在找的吗？

You know, sometimes when you just see something and you're like, this is what I've been searching for my entire life.

对我来说，绳艺就是这样的存在。

That was like me for rope.

不是当主导的那一方，而是更想当被主导的那一方。

Not not as a top, but like more, as a bottom.

我一看见就心想，我也想成为那样。

Like, I just saw it and I was like, I want to be in that.

我希望有人对我这么做。

I want someone to do that to me.

没错。

Yeah.

你一开始是自己绑自己，对吧？

You started tying yourself, right?

对。

I did.

那时候我刚开始探索，身边没有懂打结的伙伴，纽约当时圈子里那些玩绳子的人，我也真没兴趣跟他们一起练。

At that particular time, when I was starting to explore stuff, I didn't have a partner that knew how to tie, and I wasn't all that interested in tying with any of the people that were in the scene doing rope at that time in New York.

所以我就想，行吧，我得自己琢磨出怎么弄。

So I was like, okay, I'm gonna figure out how to do this on myself.

回头看看那段日子，当时有哪些资源可以用来学习呢？

When you look back at that time, what were some of the resources that were available, you know, to learn from?

唉。

Oof.

没几个。

Not many.

真的没几个。

Not many.

我们真的很幸运，能有Shibari Study这样的资源，我不是特意提这个名字，但——

We're definitely very fortunate to have sources like Shibari Study, not to like drop the name here, but,

他们可是付费支持的，这当然没问题。

I mean, they're paying for the thing, so Totally.

那时候YouTube上可能有几段教程，但现在回头看，我并不觉得那些内容值得推荐。

There was maybe a few tutorials on YouTube, looking back on weren't necessarily things I would recommend today.

我很幸运找到了一个有人组织的绳结交流活动，我去参加时，有个女孩会拿我练习，教一些简单的地面绑法，然后我回家后就试着回忆并自己复现出来。

And I was fortunate to find a little rope share that this person was hosting, and I would go and this girl would kind of practice on me, just like simple floor stuff, and then I would come home and try to remember and recreate it on myself.

这也是我开始学习绳艺的一种方式。

So that was also a way that I started doing stuff.

回看十年前刚学的时候，你觉得现在会跟当时的自己说些什么？

And looking back at that time, ten years ago, learning, what do you think you would tell yourself that you know now?

跟很多自己尝试的人一样，我特别急着想尝试悬吊，因为在我看来，作为自悬者，那才是最有趣的部分。

Like most people who try themselves, I was very eager to be suspended, because that's like the fun part, in my opinion, as a self suspender.

说实话，我那时候确实做过不少蠢事，不够安全，现在我肯定不会建议别人那样做，但人嘛，有时候就得自己冒险，犯点错，才能真正学到东西。

And yeah, I probably did a lot of, stupid things that were not necessarily safe that I would probably not recommend now, but, you know, sometimes we take chances with ourselves and sometimes we do stupid things and we learn from them.

在绳缚里，这太常见了。

That's such a common thing in rope bondage.

你一兴奋起来，就会很快经历很多事。

You get excited, then you have a lot of experiences very quickly.

你觉得我们能做些什么，来帮助刚入门的人更好地了解这个圈子？

What are some things that you think we can do to kind of educate, you know, people that are just getting in the scene?

你出去之后，很容易对很多事情都点头答应，却没真正明白背后隐含的权力关系。

You go out and you you're saying yes to a lot of things without really knowing all the implied power dynamics.

确实如此。

Totally.

这确实不容易。

It's hard.

地点影响很大，毕竟住在大城市的人，周围可能更有氛围，能先去健身房、交流会或者上课，在公共场合学习。

Of course, location plays a big part in that because I think those of us who do live in big cities, and maybe there's a little bit more of a scene there that you can find, and maybe go to a gym or a share or some kind of class first, and be in a public setting.

这样确实有明显的优势。

There's definitely an advantage to that.

但如果你住在偏远地区，很难接触到这些资源，确实会很困难。

But of course, if you're in more rural areas where you have less access to those kind of things, it can definitely be hard.

而且。

And

这个问题真的很难解决。

It's a really hard problem to solve.

没错。

For sure.

回想起我以前的做法，我会说，不如多花点时间和对方喝杯咖啡，先在公共场合见见面，了解清楚再决定要不要去你家，让你绑我。

Looking back on the way I used to be, I would say, like, take more time to have coffee with someone, or, like, meet in a public setting first to get a feel for them before being like, yeah, I'm gonna come to your house, and you're gonna tie me up.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Alright.

但当然，永远没有绝对的安全保障，你也可以主动提出带个朋友一起去，让他在旁边看着。

But of course, there's never any guarantee, or also, ask if you can bring a friend with you, that can like, come and watch.

如果一个人本意是好的，那就不该有问题。

If someone has good intentions, that shouldn't be an issue.

对。

Yeah.

如果我第一次跟人说这事，对方问：‘我能带伴侣一起来吗？’

If I was telling someone for the first time and they were like, hey, can I bring my partner with?

我会说：‘当然可以。’

I'd be like, yeah, sure.

来陪着看看就行。

Then come watch.

完全没问题。

Totally chill.

现在网上到处都是绳缚的内容。

So much of rope bondage is on the internet now.

我们老是看到同样的人、同样的照片，反而产生了一种虚假的安全感。

It gives us kind of a false sense of security with seeing the same people over and over in the same photos.

自从你开始接触绳缚以来，你觉得互联网是怎么改变它的？

How have you seen the internet kind of change rope bondage since you've been in it?

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yeah.

变化真的挺大的。

It's really changed a lot.

我记得最早是在Tumblr上分享，那时候的Tumblr简直就是社交媒体的法外之地。

I mean, I I think I started sharing stuff more on Tumblr in the Tumblr days, which is like the wild west of social media.

后来转到Instagram就完全不一样了，那边规矩多得多，限制也严。

And then, moving to Instagram was so different because there's so many more rules and restrictions.

对。

Yeah.

刚开始还挺有意思的，因为能分享的东西更多了。

And at first, it was fun because we could share more.

现在越来越难了。

And now, it's just getting harder and harder.

绳缚反而变得特别潮流了？

And rope has become so much more hip?

我不确定‘潮流’这个词对不对，但确实有点像一种时尚，对吧？

I don't know if that's a good word, but it's kind of like a trend, right?

很多人看到之后，根本不懂这里面的风险，有时候人疼得厉害，正在调整呼吸，看起来却特别飘逸、超然放松，其实那会儿他们根本就是在拼命喘气。

And so people see it, and they don't always understand the risk that's involved with it, or sometimes when people are in pain, and they're processing, they do look very ethereal, and like, otherworldly relaxed, but it's like, nah, they were trying to breathe at that moment.

所以我觉得，大家往往没意识到这事儿有多强烈。

So I think people don't always realize how intense it can be.

它本来不必这么激烈，但有时候确实就是这样。

It doesn't have to be, but like, sometimes it is.

是的。

Yeah.

我很赞同你说的，那些照片展现的，和实际情况完全不一样。

I really like what you said that there's these photos that are in juxtaposition between what's actually happening.

你是怎么发现，那些更注重美感的拍摄和更强调连接、绳缚的拍摄之间，照片有什么不同呢？

How do you find your photos are differing between sessions that are more aesthetically based, and then sessions that are more about connection and rope and things like that?

对。

Mhmm.

我很少为了拍照而专门做绳缚。

I don't do a lot of the tying for photos kind of thing.

我发的大部分照片都来自私密 sessions，重点还是放在对方的体验上。如果有机会拍一张，我就会拍，但也不是每次都能拍到，这完全取决于对方的状态和现场的情况。

Most of the stuff I post are either from private sessions and that's still more focused on the person's experience that I provide, and if I can step out to snap a photo, I will, Doesn't always happen, it really depends on the person and how things are going.

至于和伴侣一起的时候，我会绑。

And then with the partners, I tie.

那种情况比较低调，我可能会花点时间布置灯光或者营造氛围，因为我经常和他们绑，更了解他们能承受什么，也相信他们在那种时刻能和我好好沟通。

That's a little more low key, maybe I have a little more time to set up some kind of lighting or some kind of vibe, because I tie with them all the time, and I know a little bit more, like, what they can take, and I know, I trust that they can communicate with me in those moments.

要建立起这种信任，让我觉得对方真的能清晰表达自己，其实得花上挺长时间。

And it takes a it takes well, it takes me a while to build up, like, that kind of trust with someone where I feel, like, confident in their communication skills.

是的。

Yeah.

我就相信他们。

And I just trust them.

然后我们玩得很开心。

And then we have lots of fun.

是的。

Yeah.

你说得对，这确实需要时间。

And you you know, you said it takes time.

对。

Mhmm.

非常重要的一点是，你没必要在第一次见面就做完所有事。

That's really, really important figuring out that you don't have to do everything on session number one.

完全没错。

Totally.

而且有时候，做完全没有拍照的 session 也挺好的。

And it's also nice to, like, have sessions where there are no photos.

而且整个过程非常专注。

And it's just very focused.

我一直以来都特别注重摄影。

I've always been so photography based.

我甚至敢说，这已经成了我情趣的一部分。

I would even venture to say it's a little bit part of my kink.

因为摄影是我探索情趣、探索自我的一种方式。

Because it was like, part of how I explore kink and explore myself.

所以我喜欢让它成为其中的一部分。

So I like it being a part of it.

我觉得这太棒了。

I love that.

刷你的Instagram，你有那么多照片和视频。

Looking through your Instagram, you have so many photos and so many videos.

我记得你Instagram上大概有一千三百多张照片。

You know, you have like, I think over 1,300 photos on Instagram.

你还有什么想做但还没做的吗？

What haven't you done that you want to do?

说到照片，我其实不太想专门拍绑绳的图片，更想营造一些场景或者幻想氛围。

I guess when I think of photos, I have less interest in creating, like, rope photos per se, and more just interest in creating scenes or, like, fantasies.

我特别着迷于光线的运用。

I'm really into, like, exploring lighting.

我超爱摆弄光线。

I love playing with lighting.

最近我拍视频多了起来，这事儿挺有意思，但也难多了。

And I'm doing more video stuff these days, which is also interesting and, like, so much harder.

至于毛绳这类东西，我并不想借此表达什么宏大的艺术理念。

But, yeah, like, fur rope stuff, I'm not really trying to create this big art statement.

我只是想捕捉人们在那一刻的真实状态。

I just wanna, like, capture the person's experience when they're in the moment.

挺有意思的，因为你打结的方式特别有乐趣。

Well, it's so funny because the way you tie is just so fun.

你玩下面的时候，会搞出点动静，装傻逗乐，我们都笑个不停。

You, like, mess with the bottom, and you make sounds and you're goofy and we laugh.

但这种感觉真的很难用照片拍出来。

And it is really hard to represent that in photos.

我有个问题。

So I have a question.

好吧。

Okay.

你自己绑自己的时候，很难复制别人能对你做的那些事，比如疼痛的程度，或者逼自己突破极限。

When you're self tying, it is hard to replicate the same things other people can do to you, maybe in degrees of pain or pushing yourself.

你是怎么解决这个问题的？

Do you get around that?

你怎么做到别人能对你做的事，你也对自己做一遍？

How do you do the same thing that other people can do to you?

说实话，这得看你作为自悬者，到底想给自己什么样的体验。

Man, I mean, I guess it depends on if that's the experience you're trying to give yourself as a person that's a self suspender.

说实话，我知道很多人自悬的原因各不相同。

I mean, I know a lot of people self suspend for different reasons.

我的原因很简单，就是我有受虐倾向，我喜欢受苦。

My reason is definitely because I'm a masochist, and I like to suffer.

对我来说，自悬一部分是为了制造痛苦，挑战自己的耐力——我能撑多久？

For me, suspension is partially making it hurt and pushing my endurance level, so like, how long can I go?

我能做出多少种不同的动作和姿势？

How many kind of transitions and shapes can I make?

我能不能想办法完全降到地面，却不用站起来？

Can I figure out a way to like, get all the way to the floor without having to stand up?

我能不能在悬吊状态下直接打结，为下一个动作做准备，而不是先在地上打好结？

Can I tie something while I'm already suspended for the next move instead of like tying it on the ground?

但同时，也要给自己一些时刻，比如意识到这个姿势很难，那就干脆扭进去，就坐在那儿忍一分钟。

But then also giving yourself those moments where you can be like, oh, this position is hard and I'm just gonna twist into it, just make myself sit there for a minute.

对。

Yeah.

我平时就想这些事。

Those are the kind of things I think about.

你是不是也用别的方法来挑战自己呢？

Do you find that you test yourself in other ways too?

比如有没有什么爱好，是专门用来考验你耐力的？

Like, do you have any hobbies that you like to test your endurance maybe with or

当然有。

For sure.

每次做完一件事，那种感觉特别棒——天啊，我居然挺过来了。

I love the feeling when you finish something and you're like, damn, I survived.

那么难，但我还是撑住了。

That was really hard, and I made it.

我每次都想要这种感觉：我熬过来了。

That's always the feeling I wanna have afterwards, like, I survived that.

真是太棒了。

That was awesome.

我最近开始练高强度间歇训练，因为我有点自虐倾向。

I recently started doing HIIT workouts because I'm a masochist.

我很好奇，练HIIT的人里到底有多少是自虐狂。

I wonder how many people in HIIT workouts are actually masochists.

我真不知道。

I just don't know it.

哎。

Yo.

我觉得肯定特别多，因为HIIT简直是最折磨人的训练了。

I think so many because HIIT workouts are like the fucking worst.

确实够呛。

They're very bad.

太折磨人了。

They're so bad.

我也有同感，比如徒步的人，我真正喜欢的其实是爬完山之后吃的那顿饭，或者喝的那瓶啤酒。

I feel the same thing about, like, hikers and things because the thing I really like is the food after the hike or the beer after the hike.

我觉得这太棒了。

That's awesome to me.

对吧？

Right?

确实如此。

Yeah.

我对于自我约束的问题是，我总觉得没法对自己做那些别人能对我做的事。

That's my issue with self suspending is I never feel like I can do the things to myself that other people do to me.

没错。

Yeah.

确实更难。

It's definitely harder.

我现在很少当受方了，但有时候我觉得，我能对自己做的，比别人对我做的还要狠。

I don't bottom so much anymore, but sometimes I feel like I can do meaner things to myself than other people will do to me.

没错。

Yeah.

你最近有什么让人期待的事情吗？

There anything you have coming up that you're excited about?

哦，我有个旅行计划。

Oh, I do have a trip.

哎呀。

Ew.

我想你应该已经猜到了。

Think you I think you already know.

今年我会去旧金山参加福尔索姆活动。

I'm I'm gonna go to San Francisco this year for Folsom.

到时候我会先待一阵子，然后去洛杉矶待几周，希望能做一些有趣又放得开的事情。

So I'll be hanging out, and then I'm gonna go down to LA for a couple weeks and hopefully work on some fun dirty things.

我们真的很期待看到你做出什么。

We cannot wait to see what you make.

你的想法太棒了。

Your brain is amazing.

太棒了。

It's great.

确实如此。

Is.

简直太惊人了。

It's verified amazing.

你的Instagram账号是KissMeDeadlyDoll。

Your Instagram is KissMeDeadlyDoll.

你的Twitter账号是KissMeDeadlyDoll，只有一个L。

Your Twitter is KissMeDeadlyDoll with one L.

还有别的平台吗？

Is there anywhere else?

我的网站链接在Instagram上，那里有我所有的其他内容。

My website link is on Instagram where you can find all my other other stuff.

这正是大家想看的。

That's what the people want.

他们想要的是别的那些内容。

They want the other other.

对。

Yeah.

你懂的？

You know?

我是觉得，你真该去看看，因为真的挺火的。

I mean, I'm always like, you should check it out because, like, it is, like, pretty hot.

Linktree 上写着，这个链接是敏感内容。

Linktree's like, this is sensitive Link.

我知道 Linktree 是干嘛的。

And I'm like, I know Linktree.

知道什么？

Know what

我在做这件事。

I'm doing.

你这不是明摆着吗。

You're like, no shit.

我就是干这个的。

That's what I'm here for.

非常感谢你来参加节目。

Thank you so much for being on.

而且，我也很期待很快能见到你，和你聊聊。

And yeah, I can't wait to see you and talk to you soon.

我也是，谢谢你邀请我。

Me too, thank you for having me.

再见。

Bye.

再见。

Bye.