布兰妮·斯诺

闭嘴，埃文。

Shut up, Evan.

闭嘴，埃文。

Shut up, Evan.

闭嘴，埃文。

Shut up, Evan.

我喜欢把制作梗图当作一种艺术形式。

I like meme making as a art form.

我的意思是，你一直觊觎整个游戏。

I mean you coveted that whole game.

谢谢。

Thanks.

你才是那个玩梗的人。

You are the memer.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你们提供了做表情包的素材。

Well thank you for providing content for meme ing.

我们没事了吧？

Are we good?

我们刚才来了一场爱的盛宴。

We had a love fest.

抱歉，这事儿还没开始呢。

Sorry it hasn't even started yet.

各位，我今天头发特别奇怪，它开始往一些以前从没去过的地方乱翘。

Guys I'm having the weirdest hair day today where like I it started just going in places it's never before gone.

不是，嗯。

Not yeah.

总之。

Anyway.

不过，还好吗？

But good?

好的。

Okay.

谢谢。

Thank you.

布里妮·斯诺。

Britney Snow.

埃文。

Evan.

非常高兴你来这里。

So excited to have you here.

我非常高兴能来这里。

I'm so excited to be here.

好的。

Okay.

我想先问你一个问题。

I wanna start by asking you something.

这是我昨天看到的一条推文，真的引起了我的注意。

This is a tweet that I saw yesterday that really caught my attention.

哦。

Oh.

我当时就想，我得问问Britney这件事。

And I was like, I need to ask Britney about it.

所以乔伊斯·卡罗尔·欧茨写道：在我一生中，可能有一千次被人问起，哪本书改变了你的生活，或者哪部电影改变了你的生活？

So Joyce Carol Oates, she wrote, possible 1,000 times in my life, I have been asked, what is the book that changed your life or what is the film that changed your life?

这些问题很严肃吗？

Are these serious questions?

一部电影究竟如何改变一个人的生活？

Exactly how does a film change one's life?

如果你的生活如此空洞、脆弱、随意，以至于一部电影就能改变它，那么下周看另一部电影又会再次改变它。

If your life is so insubstantial, so fragile, so haphazard that a movie can change it, then another movie seen next week will change it again.

顺便说一下，她删除了这条推文。

She deleted this tweet, by the way.

我不明白为什么。

I wonder why.

但你怎么看待这种观点，即大脑不应该如此易变，以至于一部电影就能改变你的人生，因为那样的话，另一部电影下周又会再次改变它。

But what do you make of that sort of vantage point of the brain shouldn't be so malleable to allow a film to change your life because then it's just going to be changed by another film.

基本上，她是在否定电影对人们具有意义的想法。

It's basically she's kind of taking away the idea that film is meaningful for people.

我能理解这种观点可能显得俗套，但我确实觉得，当你看电影时，你看到的不是角色，而是你自己。

I can understand the point of view cheesy but I do feel like when you watch a movie you're not necessarily seeing characters you're seeing yourself.

我觉得朱莉安·摩尔说过一句非常精彩的话，虽然我记不太准了，但我觉得电影最棒的地方在于，它会给你带来一些以前从未有过的关于自己或某个想法的新领悟。

I think Julianne Moore said a quote that was brilliant that I'm butchering but what I think is so great about movies is that you have a new thought that maybe you didn't have before about yourself or an idea.

因此，我想象这一个想法就足以改变你的人生。

And so I would imagine that can change your life one idea.

在我的人生中，人们有时会告诉我，我的一些电影让他们对自身的偏好之类的事情有了不同的思考。

In my life I guess people have come up to me and said that some of my movies have made them think differently about their preferences and things like that.

我觉得这是一份巨大的荣誉，而我当初拍这些电影时，根本没想到会带来这样的影响。

I think that's a huge honor and totally not something that I thought would be a part of the movie when I was doing them.

但我确实看过一些让我觉得非常疯狂的电影，比如我看《梦之安魂曲》的时候还太年轻，那时我正经历一些心理健康问题，是一种不同于他们所展现的海洛因、甲基苯丙胺或可卡因之类的成瘾。

But I've definitely seen movies that have I'm gonna say a really really crazy one but when I saw Requiem for a Dream I saw it too young and I was going through some like mental health stuff, a different type of addiction than what they're they're all like heroin and meth crack and stuff.

但它确实改变了我的人生。

But I it definitely changed my life.

我当时在地上打滚。

I was rolling around on the floor.

我被它深深震撼了。

I was I was so disturbed by it.

所以，我想提出不同意见。

So I I beg to differ, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为它改变了我的人生，因为我明白了情况可能会有多糟糕。

I do think it changed my life because I knew how bad it could get.

是的。

Yes.

所以我不确定这是否一定可以改变。

And so I don't know if that's malleable necessarily.

这只是个观点而已。

Just think that's a perspective.

但我觉得现在人们去看某些东西时，会把它当成自己的个性，仿佛在尝试不同的身份——这周我痴迷于某件事，它就成了我生活的全部，下周又会出现新的事物，成为我生活的全部。我认为这更像是粉丝文化的表演，而不是像年轻时观看《梦之安魂曲》那样带来人生转折。

But I think it's this idea that people go see things now and sort of make it their personality and sort of try on personalities if you will and the disposability of that and basically like this week I'm obsessed with this thing and this is going to be my whole life and next week there's gonna be a new thing that will come in and this will be my whole life which is I think the performance of fandom less than it is something like watching Requiem for a Dream at a young age and having it be like life altering.

你不觉得这不过是几代人从痴迷披头士、猫王，到你喜欢的任何摇滚明星，再到男孩乐队的延续吗？

Don't you feel like that's just generations and generations of people from obsessed with the Beatles to Elvis to you know whatever rock star you were into to boy bands.

我的意思是，现在的问题在于一切都转瞬即逝、虚无缥缈，每个人都突然切换心态，因为下一个最棒的东西即将出现，或者下一个粉丝文化即将爆发。

I mean I think that the thing about now is that it's so fleeting and ephemeral and where everybody is just switching their minds so suddenly because there's the next greatest thing coming out or the next fandom that's about to blow up.

但我确实认为，这种偶像崇拜一直存在，你可以塑造自己的个性去贴近你仰慕的人。

But I do think that sort of idolization has always been there and you can form your personality to fit like the person that you're looking up to.

我觉得这就是生活本来的样子。

I think that's just how life goes.

我真的是通过看《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》来塑造自己的个性的。

I literally formed my personality off of watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

我也是。

Oh me too.

哦。

Oh

天啊。

my god.

我可以一直说下去。

I could go on forever.

哇。

Wow.

我连续三年万圣节都扮成她。

I was her for Halloween three years in a row.

哇。

Wow.

我根本不在乎。

I just didn't even care.

我有捕梦者活页夹，有笔记本，对《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》着了迷。

I had the trapper keeper, I had the notepads, I was obsessed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

但我没那么喜欢安吉尔。

And I didn't like Angel as much.

我超爱《我懂了》。

I loved I understand.

你还记得那集无声的剧集吗？

Do you remember the silent episode?

第四季第十集，Iesh。

Season four episode 10, Iesh.

对。

Yes.

我们才是真粉丝。

We're real ones.

我喜欢《巴菲》这样的剧，你知道吗，这部剧下架都二十年了，快二十年了，但当你遇到另一个《巴菲》粉丝时，你就会觉得：哦，原来如此。

I love shows like Buffy that it's like it's you know what twenty years since the show was off the air, twenty plus and yet when you meet another Buffy fan you're kind of like okay.

这说明我们有着相似的审美。

It says something we share a sensibility.

他们讲故事的方式也非常有趣，这些角色的弧线，还有他们大胆融入了其中的魔法元素，我认为这真正吸引了人们，并且很好地展现了这种双重性。

The way that they did story too was so interesting the arcs of these characters and also they kind of like leaned into the magical element of it all that I think just really captivated people and did the duality of that really well.

我的意思是，每个人都喜欢。

I mean everybody loves.

没人会厌倦这种感觉：你一边想当个高中生，一边还得承担超级英雄、女巫、吸血鬼猎手之类的任务，随便你填什么吧。

Nobody gets enough of like you're trying to be in high school but you also have this job of being a superhero, a witch, a vampire slayer, I mean fill in the blank.

《狼人》之类的，你知道的，任何类似的作品。

Teen Wolf, you know, anyone, anything.

是的。

Yes.

所以你当时在追《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》。

So you were consuming Buffy.

听起来在你真正进入这个行业之前，你早就已经是个流行文化少女了。

It sounds like you were a pop culture girly before you really, like, found your way into the business.

我是WB频道的粉丝。

I mean, was a WB girl.

我怎么看那只小青蛙都看不够。

I couldn't get enough of that little frog.

我看了《魔法少女》。

I I watched Charmed.

我看了《迪瓦斯克里克》。

I watched Dawson's Creek.

那就是我的时代。

I I mean that was my my time.

我特别想出演《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》。

I wanted to be on Buffy the Vampire Slayer so badly.

我恳求试镜《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》中米歇尔·特拉赫滕伯格的角色。

I begged to audition for Michelle Trachtenberg her part on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

我连试镜都没能参加，当时特别沮丧。

I didn't even get to audition and I was devastated.

我想那时候我正在拍《美国梦》，也许这就是我没机会试镜的原因。

I think I was doing American Dreams at the time I hope that was the reason I didn't get to audition for it.

但有一次，我在酒店酒吧遇到了莎拉·米歇尔·盖拉，当时我大概十六七岁，和我的朋友大卫·塞梅尔在一起，他曾经和她合作过，是《美国梦》的制片导演，我当场彻底懵了。

But I one time was introduced to Sarah Michelle Geller at a hotel bar even though I was like 16 or 17 with my friend David Semmel who had worked with her and he was the producing director on American Dreams and I completely blacked out.

不是因为酒精，而是因为太震惊了。

Not from alcohol but from just from shock.

是的。

Yeah.

见到了我的偶像。

And meeting my idol.

是的。

Yeah.

她本身就是一种存在，让人完全丧失了思考能力。

She is a substance unto herself that like renders you, yeah, incapable of space.

她就是母亲。

She is mother.

她就是母亲。

She is mother.

嗯。

Yeah.

她确实是。

She really is.

我们现在都知道了。

We all know this now.

那时候，当你在WB电视台看节目时，我觉得最独特的是他们会把所有剧集的演员聚集在后院，拍摄这种宣传片段，本质上就是WB的宣传片。

At that time it's like when you would watch something on the WB I think the unique thing that doesn't exist today because they would do the those commercials where they would bring the stars from all the various shows

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你会看到香农·多尔蒂、乔舒亚·杰克逊和莎拉·米歇尔·盖拉。

Onto the back lot and kind of film like this, like it was like a promo for the WB essentially.

所以你会看到香农·多尔蒂、乔舒亚·杰克逊和莎拉·米歇尔·盖拉。

So you get, like, Shannon Dougherty and Joshua Jackson and Sarah Michelle Gellar.

慢动作。

Slow motion.

是的。

Yes.

杰西卡·比尔。

Jessica Biel.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得奈飞应该把这种形式带回来说，把所有剧集的明星聚在一起，搞点跨界联动什么的。

And it's like, I feel like Netflix needs to bring that back and accumulate the stars from all these shows, put them together, and do some sort of just crossover something.

我喜欢这个点子。

I love that idea.

我的整个童年，我经常去《第七天堂》的片场，和他们混在一起。

I mean, my whole childhood, I would go to the set of seventh Heaven all the time and hang out with them.

而且我记得他们是在WB牧场拍摄的，我当时就想，哇，你们真的成功了。

And it was, I mean I think they shot at the WB Ranch and I just thought wow guys you guys have really make it made it.

我的意思是，谁在乎NBC呢，那是我所在的电视台。

I mean who cares about NBC which was the network I was on.

我只想上WWE。

I wanted to be on WWE.

与此同时，我想象很多演员都渴望上NBC，因为我在想这件事。

Meanwhile, I imagine a lot of them aspired to be on NBC because this is like I was thinking about this.

你要是上了NBC的剧，像《美国梦想》开播前就有很多炒作。

It's like you're on an NBC show, and American Dreams had so much hype in the lead up to that.

我觉得《美国梦想》是2001年拍摄、2002年播出的。

I think American Dreams shot in 2001 and aired in 2002.

好吧。

Okay.

因为我记得该剧开播前的预热，我想知道你是否记得在《美国梦想》开播前，感受到那种‘我们正在打造一部成功剧集’的压力。

Because I remember the lead up to the show premiering, and I'm wondering if you remember before American Dreams premiered feeling that pressure of this is we are fashioning successful show.

我完全不知道。

I I had no idea.

我的意思是，我15岁的时候就拍了试播集。

I mean I did the pilot when I was 15.

我们开拍这部剧的时候我16岁。

We started the show when I was 16.

我知道，不知为何，在我16岁的小脑袋里，我明白这非常特别——我们有一整套关于《美国乐队》和1964年意义的资料，即使还是个孩子，我也觉得这太罕见了，我从没见过这样的试播剧本，我们都意识到，我们即将置身于一个不同的时代，还会邀请各种名人扮演标志性明星，这真的很特别。

I did know that it was very for some reason in my 16 year old little brain I knew that it was very cool that we had a packet of information about American Bandstand and what the year 1964 meant and even as a kid I thought to myself this is really rare I have never seen a pilot script like this and I think we all knew that it was really interesting that we were going to be in a different time period and there were people going to be coming on playing iconic stars.

我的意思是，马文·盖伊是由乌sher扮演的。

I mean Marvin Gaye was played by Usher.

没错。

Yep.

黛昂·沃里克是由阿珊蒂扮演的。

Dion Warwick played by Ashanti.

我的意思是，这个创意太棒了。

I mean that was such a great concept.

但我从来不知道别人对它有什么看法。

But I never know what I'm doing in terms of what people think about it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我对这些完全一无所知。

I'm completely clueless to it.

这很奇怪吗？

Is that weird?

不奇怪，但我认为这很有趣。

No but I imagine it's interesting.

这有点像圈内事，但我认为它很有相关性，因为《欲望都市》第一季也是如此。

It's a little inside baseball, but I do think it's relevant because the same can be said of Sex and the City season one.

《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》也是如此，通常当一部剧集制作时——或者更准确地说，过去是这样的——一部剧在播出第一季的同时，还在制作第一季的后半部分。

Same goes Buffy as well, which is that typically when a show is made or or or how it used to be rather was that a show would be airing its first season and they would still be in production on the back half of season one.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以人们会从直觉上感受到大家对它的反应。

So people would start to know vibrationally how people were feeling about it.

这并不一定意味着他们会做出任何改动，但会让人感受到这部剧的反响如何。

It wouldn't necessarily mean they would make any changes, but it would give people a sense of like, this is how the show is being received.

哪些地方有效，哪些地方无效。

This is what's working, this is what's not.

但有趣的是，就狩猎而言，你制作了这个东西，然后就完成了。

But interestingly with hunting wise, it's like you make this thing, you finish the job.

当时根本没人讨论过它会继续下去的可能性。

There was no discussion of it even being something that would continue on at the time.

哦不，我们以为我们根本不会被续订。

Oh no, we thought we we thought we weren't gonna get picked up at all.

我们以为没人会看这部剧。

We thought that no one was going to see it.

当《Landscape and Stars》分开时，我们有点担心这部剧会被取消并被遗忘。

We were sort of freaked out when Landscape and Stars separated that it was going to just going to get dropped and lost.

所以有一段很长的时间，我们只是说，嗯，那挺有意思的。

So there was a a long period of time where we sort of said, well, that was fun.

没人会看的。

No one gonna see it.

然后它被Netflix买下了，几个月后就上线了。

And then it was sold to Netflix and it came out a couple two months later.

但这一切发生得非常快。

But it all happened really fast.

我们在几个月内从零直接冲到了一百。

We went from zero to a 100 within a couple months.

你觉得这要归功于什么？

And what do you credit that to?

我得说，我一向关注潮流，我记得一开始听到人们谈论它时，还以为它是个模仿《真实主妇》的节目。

Because I have to say like, I'm someone who I try and keep my finger on the pulse and I remember hearing people starting to talk about it and in the beginning thinking this must be like a derivative Real Housewives.

我一开始以为它是个真人秀。

I thought it was a reality show in the beginning.

对。

Right.

我以为这是新版的《德克萨斯主妇》，只是没有明说而已。

I thought it was this new version where they were attempting to do The Real Housewives of Texas but not branding it as such.

我总能知道，当某件事发展到让我无法回避的时候。

And I always know when something gets to a point where it's unavoidable for me.

我不断看到那些我重视其意见的人在讨论，于是我心想：我不能再故意无视它了——这让我看完了试播集，然后立刻就上瘾了。

I keep seeing enough people whose opinion I care about that I'm like I can no longer willfully reject this which is what brought me into the pilot and then immediately I was like oh I'm hooked I'm in.

太好了。

Oh great.

但我想知道，你是什么时候开始有这种感觉的？我觉得这确实是一个真实的口碑现象。

But I'm wondering when you started to feel that and my feeling is this is a genuine word-of-mouth phenomenon.

TikTok、Instagram上的视频和各种梗，我觉得这些都大大推动了它的传播。

The TikToks and the Instagrams and the memes and stuff like that, I think that really added a lot to it.

而且，它在很多方面都打破了常规。

And also, I mean, it's just breaking so many rules in so many different ways.

它某种程度上触及了我们当下急需的那种政治讽刺，大家都在陷入一种‘这出戏是在演我们吗？’的狂热中。

And it's kind of digging into that little political satire that we need right now where everyone's sort of doing that euphoria thing where like is this play about us?

当我们录制这段内容时，你已经去过片场了，但截至目前你还没去过，我想象重新与这群人聚在一起一定特别令人兴奋——你们曾独自默默创作了这部作品，我相信你们都深信不疑，但曾经有一段时间，你们甚至不确定它是否能面世。

When we record this you will be, you will have been on set but as of right now you have not yet and I imagine it's particularly exciting coming back together with this group of people where you made something in silo together that I imagine you all believed in but there was a time you didn't even know if it would see the light of

那天。

day.

当然。

Definitely.

而现在它已经面世了，我想知道，作为一名演员，当你重新回到这个世界时，知道它已经发展成如今的模样，那感觉是怎样的？

And now it has and I'm wondering what that's like for you as an actor reentering this world knowing what it's become since you first made it.

我希望人们开始狂热追捧时，别让这份魔力消失，我希望我们能保持当初那种化学反应——那时我们只是玩得特别开心，根本没想过会有人看。

I hope it doesn't take away the magic of when people start drinking the Kool Aid a little I hope that we can maintain that sort of chemistry that we had where we were just having so much fun not thinking that many people were going to see it.

因为当时我们仿佛拥有一个只有我们知道的秘密，我希望这种感觉能一直保留。

Because it sort of seemed like we had a secret that no one else knew about and I hope that maintains.

但现在它如此普及，我们只能希望最好能配得上这份压力，希望它不会影响到我们的表演。

But now that it's so ubiquitous we're sort of hoping for the best that we can live up to that pressure and I hope we don't let it seep into our acting.

你希望作品能大获成功，希望它能突破主流，但同时又想保留那份‘最隐秘的秘密’的感觉。

You want something to be a great success and you want something to break through the mainstream but there's like the idea of wanting to keep the best kept secret.

因为你知道，当你看到一些东西刚起步时，意识到它们真的很有意义，这会改变整体的基调吗？

Because you know when you've seen things when they started understanding that they were really relevant and it changes the tone?

完全没错。

Totally.

然后你开始想，哇，他们知道自己被看懂了，是的。

And you start being like wow they know that they're Yes.

但这并不意味着他们不再努力了。

And it's not like they don't try as hard.

只是笑话似乎变得不一样了，讽刺也略有不同，因为他们更懂了，或者更自我意识了。

It's just almost like the jokes are different or the satire is a little bit different because they get it a little bit more or it's self aware.

我要说，这并不总是从质量上降低作品，但对我而言，一个很好的例子就是《欲望都市》：第一季和第二季，尤其是第一季，那会儿剧集更粗粝，你会看到链条、抽烟、携带……

And I will say it doesn't always necessarily diminish qualitatively the product but I would say a great example of what you're speaking to for me is with Sex and the City when there's season one and two of Sex and the City, particularly season one where it's a lot grittier of a show, You get chains smoking carry.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你会看到一个更粗犷的卡瑞。

And you get a much more gruffer carry.

嗯。

Mhmm.

到了第三季、第四季及之后，这部剧的风格逐渐变得柔和了一些。

And then with three and four and beyond, the show sort of softens some of its edges.

我不认为因此变得差了，但它确实更有自我意识了。

And, I don't think it's worse off as a result, but it definitely is aware.

你能感觉到，它现在正在成为一种文化现象。

You get the sense that, like, it is now producing a cultural phenomenon.

是的。

Yes.

但我想象这也很艰难，因为这个行业本身就充满挑战，所以当你拥有这样一部作品时，我猜你也会想停下来，对自己说：‘嘿，我找到了一个成功的东西’，你能允许这种成就感渗透进来吗？

But I imagine too, 's tough like this is a challenging industry to begin with and so to have something like this I imagine too like wanting to take a moment and be like yeah like I've found something that is working and I think it's are you able to allow that to seep in?

我经历过很多事，曾经总觉得我可能永远都只是那种演得还不错、资历很深的女演员，但你从来都不确定。

I've gone through a lot of things where I just I kind of thought maybe I'm just always going to be sort of that one type of actress that does you know pretty well and has been around for a long time and you never really know.

所以我非常非常感激，这部剧能发展成今天的样子，人们观看它、喜爱它、对它有反应，它能触动他们的情感。

And so I am so so grateful that this has has become what it has become and people have watched it and love it and have reactions to it and it evokes something in them.

但我必须时刻提醒自己，正如你刚才所说，我们不能被别人的看法所束缚，不能太在意别人喜不喜欢我们或他们怎么评价，否则我们就会开始为观众拍戏、塑造角色或表演——为了迎合他们的喜好，怕太具颠覆性，怕惹恼任何人。而我觉得这部剧最棒的地方就在于，我们一直抱着‘我根本不在乎’的态度，根本不是为了任何人而做。如果我们开始改变这种态度，或者我稍微相信了外界的评价，那我们就会失去这部剧那种反叛的特质。

But I also have to really keep in mind and this is know spawning off of what you were just saying that we don't kind of get bogged down with people's perceptions or if people like us or what people's opinions are because then we start doing the show or the characters or the acting for them for like if people are liking it or if we're not too disruptive and we don't want to ruffle any feathers and I think what's so great about the show specifically is that we sort of have had a I don't give a fuck attitude and we weren't doing it for anyone necessarily and if we start to move that or if I start to believe what people are saying a little bit then I think we lose that transgressive quality to the show.

所以我必须提醒自己：我真的很感激，但也不能相信那些胡说八道。

And so I have to be like I'm really really grateful but I also can't believe the bullshit either.

我不能心想：‘哦，我知道了。’

I can't be like oh I know.

完全对。

Totally.

找不到更贴切的表达了。

For lack of a better movement.

你是否觉得，在好莱坞的演艺生涯本质上就是一条起起落落的路，而眼下这正是一个上升的时刻，你要尽可能长久地维持这个高峰？

Do you sort of see the long tail of a career in acting in Hollywood as sort of just a road of many ups and downs and right now this is an up moment and you try sustain the up moment for as long as you can.

这算是你的看法吗？

Is that sort of your perspective?

当然。

Definitely.

我的意思是，因为我在这个行业待了很久，经历过很多起起落落，所以既有深深的感激，也明白我必须珍惜当下，因为你永远不知道事业会带给你什么，正因如此，我非常感激能拥有如此长久的职业生涯，因为它总会起起落落。

I mean I think because I've been in the business for so long and I've had those ups and downs a lot of times there's a duality of being extremely grateful and also understanding that I need to really be present in this moment because you never know where a career can take you and that's why I'm so grateful to have a long career because it will go up and down.

而低谷可能会到来，但这并不会让我减少作为演员的价值，只是社会在变，事物在变，所以我非常非常珍惜现在的一切。

And that down might come and that doesn't make me any less of an actor it just makes me and society changes and things change and so I'm very very grateful for now.

我不确定自己是否曾有过放弃的想法，我想我只是觉得事情变得有点棘手，很多人不知道该怎么对待我，因为我当了这么久的童星，人们总是以某种方式看待我，也许我自己也这样看待自己。

I'm not sure if I was I didn't have like a resignation about it I think I just was guess like things kind of got a little tricky and I was met with a lot of people didn't know what to do with me because as being a child actor for so long people kind of saw me in one way even maybe I saw myself in a certain way.

但当我长大成人，成为女人，开始接演不同类型的角色时，我感觉自己像在一艘邮轮上，必须改变自己的认知、改变职业生涯，让别人把我当作一个女人，而不是童星，这就像在挪动整艘邮轮。

And then to become an adult and become a woman and take different roles I felt like I was in a cruise liner and I was to change my perception and to change my career and to have people take me as a woman and not a kid actor it was like moving a whole cruise ship.

进展慢得惊人。

It was like going so slowly.

所以我觉得，也许这艘邮轮终于稍微转了个方向，但这花了太长时间，而且我遇到了很多说我不行的人。

And so I feel like maybe the cruise ship has sort of like turned a little bit but it took a really long time and I was met with a lot of people who said I couldn't actually.

我认为这正是《猎杀妻子》中的索菲这个角色如此出色、尤其适合你的原因，因为它取材了我们曾见过你扮演的刻板形象，并以一种非常有趣的方式颠覆了它。

I think that's actually why Sophie on Hunting Wives is such a not only a great role but a great role for you because I think it takes a trope that we've seen you play and subverts it in such interesting way.

通过这样做，也展现了你作为演员的广阔潜力。

And in doing that, showcases your breath as a performer.

但看看你所说的‘不客气’。

But in looking at you're welcome.

但回顾那段时期，当你被推荐出演许多角色时，那些角色都是讨人喜欢的、受欢迎的、可爱的女孩，你的人生中是否曾有过这样的时刻，你心想：我真的想摆脱这种类型，反其道而行之，或者慢慢转向另一种方向？

But in looking at that time when you were put forward for a lot of roles where she's the likable one, the popular one, the cute girl, was there a point in your life when you said I wanna I really wanna move away from this, play against this, or slowly shift to this?

或者，你对自己所扮演的角色类型的方向有多少自觉意识？

Or how much consciousness was there around the direction of like the kind of roles that you were playing?

我的意思是，真希望我能说这是经过深思熟虑的策略，我有个完整的计划，但让我感到沮丧的是——这种情况不仅发生在我身上，也发生在很多女性身上，当然不只是我。如果你外表、举止和言谈都符合某种模式，而你过去又做过类似的事情，你被简单地归类为‘活泼开朗’，那么人们就会认为你天真、缺乏智慧、总是快乐。

I mean, wish I could say that it was strategic and that I had this master plan but what I I was frustrated by is I think and this happens to a lot of women and it's not just me of course but I think if you look and act and talk a certain way and you have done things like this in your past and you are for lack of a better word just bubbly and happy then you are naive, you don't have a great intellect, you are always happy.

人们觉得你成为这样的人没有深层原因，而我总是说，我演过的最出色的表演，就是小时候塑造的那个极其活泼、开朗、快乐的角色，因为那是我应对内心真实状况的方式。

There is no depth to the reasons that you've become this way and I always say like the greatest acting I've ever done is to develop a character when I was a kid that was really perky and bubbly and happy because that's how I dealt with what was going on underneath.

这就是为什么我执导并撰写了《降落伞》这部作品，讲述我二十出头的经历，因为我希望让人们看到，人们总是戴着面具。我在二十岁出头和青少年时期经历了很多，内心深处有如此多的复杂情感，却从未让任何人看见。而那些正是我想扮演的角色类型——打破并颠覆那个金发、快乐、一切完美的女孩刻板印象，其实就像每个人都知道的那样。

I think that's why I directed Parachute and wrote it as well about my early 20s is because I wanted to show people that people wear masks all the time and I was going through a lot in my early 20s and teenage years and there was so much depth and going on under there that I would never have let people see and I think those were the types of roles that I wanted to play that sort of broke and subverted that archetype of the girl who was blonde and happy and had it all together but really just like how everyone knows.

那并不总是真实的，你不该仅仅因为过去做过什么、长什么样就被困在那种框框里，任何人都不该被这样定义。

That's not always necessarily true and you shouldn't be put in that box just because that's what you've done before, that's what you look like and no one should ever have that.

那。

That.

所以我觉得我很兴奋能扮演那些不只是单一层面的角色，这正是我在邮轮题材中试图表达的——邮轮上有许多房间，很多层楼。

So I think I was excited to play things that weren't just one note in a lot of ways and that's what I was trying to do with the cruise ship is be like there's rooms, there's floors, lots of floors on the cruise.

有一整层甲板。

There's a whole deck.

是的。

Yeah.

有电梯上下。

There's elevator going up

和下。

and down.

所以这部《降落伞》电影，是你编剧并执导的。

So this film Parachute, you wrote and directed the film.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吗？

Correct?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这对您来说是一次突破。

And this was a departure for you.

这是您首次编写并执导一部全长剧情片。

It the first time you'd written and directed a full length feature.

对吗？

Correct?

嗯。

Mhmm.

您提到您的真实生活经历与这部电影之间存在联系。

You talk about there's a connection between your real life experiences and this film.

所以我想知道，这对您来说是一种怎样的体验？

And so I'm wondering what was that experience like for you?

《降落伞》这部电影的故事线里，没有涉及我亲身经历的任何表演或类似内容。

Parachute, there's no like acting or or or involved in the storyline of of what I went through.

这部电影讲述的是心理健康问题、饮食失调、焦虑、抑郁，以及一些其他角色的酗酒问题。我只是想展现我和我的朋友们、我关心的人们正在经历的事情，这些与好莱坞毫无关系，但这就是我们真实的生活。

It's about a mental health struggle and addiction with eating disorders anxiety depression also alcoholism with some of the other characters and I just sort of wanted to show like what was happening with me and a bunch of my friends and people that I cared about that had nothing to do with Hollywood necessarily but this was what was going on.

我觉得这过程非常具有宣泄作用，同时也具有治疗意义，因为我通过让别人扮演我，以一种抽离的方式，重新审视和理解自己正在经历的一切。

And I think it was extremely cathartic but it was also it was like therapeutic in a lot of ways because I was sort of going through the process of understanding what I was going through by doing it in a very removed way by directing someone else playing me.

我为自己感到骄傲，不仅因为我能执导这部电影，而且我觉得自己做得还不错；更因为我看到了22、23岁那个女孩的自己，我真想给她一个拥抱。这就是我想拍这部电影的原因——为了所有那些在那个年纪没有遇到过类似电影的女孩，而我本该在那时就拥有这样的电影。

And I was very proud of myself not only because I got to direct it and I thought I did an okay job but because I could see myself as like a 22, 23 year old girl and I just really wanted to give her a hug and so that's why I wanted to do the movie is for all those girls that didn't have a movie like that like I should have had at that time.

此外，您还是‘爱更响亮’运动的联合创始人，该计划由非营利组织Jed基金会发起，致力于应对本片所涉及的问题，如欺凌、身体形象、歧视和抑郁。

So in addition you're the cofounder of the Love Is Louder Movement, a project by the nonprofit Jed Foundation dedicated to addressing issues which are brought up in this film such as, bullying, body image, discrimination, and depression.

您还共同创立了非营利组织‘九月来信’，旨在提高心理健康意识。

You also cofounded the nonprofit September Letters for Mental Health Awareness.

我觉得这非常有趣。

And I think it's so interesting.

我的意思是，想到《降落伞》这部电影，以及这些组织，您希望利用自己作为公众人物的影响力，以及您所创作的作品来传递信息。

I mean, thinking about Parachute but also these organizations as well, this idea that you want to use the platform both of your exposure as a public figure but also in the work that you make.

对我来说，这从来就不是一个可以选择的问题。

I don't ever think it was an option for me.

我的意思是，我一直觉得，我们从事这个行业的原因远不止于关注自己，或者像我这样的个人。

I mean I just I always thought that there was so much more to why we're in this business than just making it about ourselves or myself in this case.

当我青少年时期经历一些事情时，我并没有得到任何支持，而且那是个不同的时代，是九十年代和两千年代初。

I felt like when I was going through some things when I was a teenager I didn't have and it was a different time it was you know the ninety's and the early aughts.

当时很少有人谈论他们的心理健康，即使有人谈，也往往是通过酗酒、吸毒这类问题的视角，而那些更微妙、未被言说的议题，尤其是我所仰慕的女性们，根本不会公开讨论。

There weren't a lot of people talking about their mental health or if they were it was definitely in the lens of like alcoholism or drug use or things like that but the more nuanced things that weren't spoken about definitely weren't advertised especially by you know women that I looked up to.

现在这种情况确实在改变，我为此感到非常高兴，但我一直希望确保我所经历的一切没有白费。

And so now that is definitely changing and I'm really glad for that but I always wanted to make sure that the things that I went through were not for nothing.

即使在我经历这些的时候，我也会对自己说：只要我能挺过去，希望这些经历终能带来一些积极的影响。

And I would say that to myself even when I was going through this like if I can just get through this hopefully this will be used for good in some way.

于是我对自己许下承诺，如果我能挺过来，我一定会为此发声。

So I made a promise to myself that if I did I would be able to speak to that.

作为采访者，我可以问你一个问题吗？

Can I ask you a question as an interviewer?

在很多情况下，我都想向嘉宾提问关于这里提到的诸多话题。

It's like there are so many instances in which like I want to ask a guest about questions around like you know a lot of the topics here.

比如想到校园欺凌这样的事情。

Like thinking about something like bullying for instance.

对吧？

Right?

我在学校的时候被欺凌过。

It's like I was bullied in school.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也是个欺凌者。

I was a bully.

这对我产生了影响

It's had an impact on

我是个欺凌者？

were my a bully?

我是个欺凌者。

I was a bully.

哦不。

Oh no.

为什么？

Why?

我对此并不感到自豪。

I'm not proud of it.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我认为这是一种防御机制。

I think it's a defense mechanism.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是因为当时我特别生气，而且到现在还是这样，因为我是同性恋这件事被人拿来取笑。

I think I had a really strong it pissed me off and it still does that being gay was something that people would make.

我不明白为什么我是同性恋就会成为被人嘲笑的对象。

Did not understand why me being gay put me as a subject of ridicule.

这对我来说没有意义，我认为与其让我困惑或难过，不如我把这种情绪转化为对被如此对待的愤怒。

That didn't make sense to me and I think rather than it confuse or upset me I channeled that through my rage at being like

完全同意。

Totally.

你别想叫我同性恋。

You're not gonna call me a faggot.

简直就是，好吧，你尽管叫我同性恋，看看我会怎么回击你。

It's like, well, actually, go ahead and call me a faggot and watch what I do to your return.

所以我会说，我确实欺负过别人，但我感觉我是被激怒的。

So I would say I did bully, but I felt provoked.

咖啡因能缓解一切。

Caffeine helps it all.

但不用说，我提起这些是为了说明，这些事情会影响我们成年后的自我。

But needless to say, I bring it up to say it's like these things, they impact who we are in our adult lives.

你提到过，小时候你听不到演员们谈论这些事。

And you mentioned the fact, like, when you were young, you weren't hearing actors talk about it.

但我怀疑，也许他们没有谈论这些，是因为没有人问过他们。

But I wonder it's like maybe they weren't talking about it because they weren't asked about it.

我不确定采访对象是否有责任主动提出这些问题，但有时我的障碍在于，我不愿过多介入他人的私生活，因为我知道演员并没有义务提供超出表演之外的更多信息。

And I wonder if it's incumbent on interview subjects to ask about these things, but my road block at times is not wanting to delve too much into people's personal lives in recognizing that actors don't have an obligation to offer more than their performances.

所以我想知道，你是否有时觉得，或者现在觉得，你希望被问到的问题能更有深度，能让你谈谈你与这些组织相关的工作——比如你在这方面的努力，这些话题或许能引发更多关于心理健康危机的讨论。

So I guess I wonder like do you feel sometimes then or today that you wish the subjects that you were asked about had more heft or allowed you to talk about some of the things that your work with these organizations like the work that you're doing on that side of things that this could spawn more conversations related to for instance the mental health crisis

我们正身处其中。

we find ourselves in.

我不知道自己在十几岁末到二十岁出头时是否真的准备好谈论这些，反正我是没准备好。

Don't know if I was necessarily ready when I was in my late teens early twenties to talk about definitely not.

我觉得当时的时代背景不同，谈论你内心的想法或感到悲伤，往往会招致评判，比如让人觉得你在自我标榜之类的，而这种现象至今依然存在——很多人会问：你为什么非得抱怨什么？我完全理解这种想法，因为我在很多方面确实非常幸运。

And I do think it was a different time where talking about what was going on in your mind and being sad was kind of met with judgment in terms of I don't know making yourself seem like oh what was me and things like that and that still actually exists today where a lot of people are like why do you have to complain about anything and I definitely understand that because I am very privileged in a lot of ways.

所以我明白这一点，但同时我也觉得，那时候的环境确实不一样。

So I do get that but at the same time I do feel like it was a different time.

比如在我十几岁、二十岁出头的时候，朱莉娅·罗伯茨就不太会被问到她正在经历哪些挣扎。

Last you know like when I was a teenager in my early 20s Julia Roberts wasn't being asked what struggles she was going through necessarily.

她当时被问及的是她的表演，而人们其实并不了解那些电影明星本人。

She was being asked about her performances and you didn't really know about the people that were movie stars.

你看到电影明星时，觉得他们离你非常遥远。

You saw the movie stars and you saw them very removed.

我们确实成长于那个时代，那种距离感反而是被向往的——你仰慕他们，但知道自己不属于他们。

And we definitely grew up in that time where that was actually coveted Where you looked up to them but you weren't one of them.

而现在，有了社交媒体，人人都如此坦诚，这种界限已经模糊了，所以我确实觉得这标志着一个新时代的到来，我为此感到非常自豪，因为我认为现在人们能明白，本质上并不存在等级之分。

And now with social media and everybody being so open it's kind of merged and so I do feel like it's a marking of a different generation which I'm really proud about because I think that now people can understand that there is no hierarchy in a way.

我们都是在应对相似处境的普通人，不管你从事什么工作，当然，当电影明星、成为朱莉娅·罗伯茨有其优势，但你知道，这并不意味着人们就不会经历痛苦。

We're all just people dealing with similar instances whether whatever job you have and obviously being a movie star and being Julia Roberts has its perks but you know that doesn't mean that people don't go through things.

我觉得有意思的是，想到《降落伞》这部电影，因为我也认为很多演员能够通过作品传达他们想讨论的话题——无论是他们生活中遭遇的逆境或其他问题。我未必愿意坐下来接受采访时谈论我与X、Y、Z的个人经历，但我拍了这部电影，或出演了这个项目，它本身就在探讨某个对我至关重要、或我感兴趣、或我认为观众应该了解的问题。

Well I think it's interesting too thinking about Parachute because it's like I also think that there are a lot of actors who are able to channel things that they wanna discuss whether it be things that they've come up against in their lives, adversity, what have you and say I'm not necessarily wanting to sit down in an interview and talk about my experience with x y and z but I did make this film or I acted in this project that is speaking about you know, an issue that is central to me or or my interests or something that I think audiences should be exposed to.

所以我觉得这种平衡很有趣：把想表达的内容融入作品中，同时又走出去宣传这部作品，而这两者之间可以相互呼应。

So I think it's interesting that balance of, like, putting it in the work and then also being out promoting the work and then the ways in which those two things can dovetail.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗，我觉得这真的很有意思。

You know, I think that that's really interesting.

我想读给你一段最近的引述。

I wanna read you a recent quote.

这和我们现在的对话很相关。

This is relevant to this conversation.

好的。

Okay.

我真的很喜欢这个。

So I'm really into this.

《纽约时报》有一个名为《访谈》的播客节目。

The New York Times has this interview podcast called The Interview.

嗯。

Mhmm.

詹妮弗·劳伦斯最近上了这个节目，她说了一些话，我常常听到演员的某句话时，就会想：哦

And Jennifer Lawrence just appeared on the show and she said this and I've been really I sometimes I hear a quote from an actor and I just Oh

我知道你接下来要问我什么，这没关系。

I know what you're about to ask me and this is okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

她说：我觉得我正处于一种复杂的重新调整中，因为我是个艺术家。

She said I think I'm in a complicated recalibration because I'm an artist.

考虑到这种局势以及事情可能的发展方向，我不希望因为人们不喜欢我的政治观点，就让他们对电影或那些可能改变意识、改变世界的作品产生抵触。

With this temperature and the way things can turn out I don't want to start putting people off to films and to the art that could change consciousness or change the world because they don't like my political opinions.

我想保护我的创作，让你依然能沉浸在我所做的事情中。

I want to protect my craft that you can still get lost in what I'm doing.

如果我无法表达一些能带来和平、缓和紧张局势或某种解决方案的想法，我不愿成为问题的一部分。

And if I can't say something that's going to speak to some kind of peace or lowering the temperature or some sort of solution, I don't want to be a part of the problem.

我不想让问题变得更糟。

I don't want to make the problem worse.

我试图通过我的作品来表达我的政治观点——我制片公司出品的许多电影都是对政治现状的反映，这正是我觉得自己能提供帮助的方式。

I try to express my politics through my A lot of my movies coming out from my production company are expressions of the political landscape, and that's how I feel like I can be helpful.

这让我想到了《降落伞》或你主演的短片《红白蓝》，甚至是《猎妻》，我认为这些都是将艺术与有话要说的信息相结合的例子。

And it made me think about, parachute or the short film you starred in red, white, and blue or even hunting wives, which I think are all examples of channeling art with a message that has something to say.

是的，我想知道你对这句话的回应是什么。

Yeah I'm wondering what your response to that quote is.

我曾经长期认同这种想法，也许是为了让自己感觉更好——我觉得我不那么出名，所以能深入角色，沉浸其中，人们也不会太了解真实的我。但如今我年纪大了，我意识到自己选择角色、选择戏份，是因为这些角色能触动我，我有能力演绎，因为我能与他们产生共鸣，也心存敬意。

I really did prescribe to that type of thinking for a long time maybe to make myself feel better where I was like I like that I'm not really that well known so I can kind of go into my characters and get lost in them and people don't necessarily know a lot about myself but I think now that I've gotten older I know that I choose characters and I know that I choose parts that speak to me that I know that I can play because I have some substitution and I have some admiration for.

我必须相信这些角色，必须理解他们的行为动机，所以我选择的角色都属于我性格中的一部分。正因为是我主动选择这些角色，我就必须坚持他们所传达的信息，理解其相关性。比如《红白蓝》，我知道上映后会引发大量争议，但我依然相信它，所以我才能演好这个角色。

I have to believe in these characters I have to understand their justifications and so I choose characters that are in my wheelhouse of a facet of my personality and so because I choose these characters I stand by the fact that I have to adhere to the message that they're saying in some understand why it's relevant and with Red White and Blue like I knew that there was going to have an onslaught of people having opinions about it but I believe in that and so that's why I'm able to do that character.

我希望，那些不认同这个信息的人，根本不会去扮演这样的角色。

Wouldn't I would hope that someone who didn't believe in that message wouldn't be playing that character.

所以我认为，某种程度上，是的，你所扮演的角色，正是你道德和根本信念中某种侧面的体现。

So I do think that there's in a way, yes you're playing you're playing people that are facets of something that you morally and fundamentally believe in.

索菲这个角色对我来说非常有趣，也与我们今天的对话相关——在《猎妻》第一季中，索菲做出了许多糟糕的决定，但我不确定这是剧本的设定、你的演绎，还是仅仅因为布里特妮·斯诺本身的气质。

Sophie is such an interesting character to me and related to this conversation in that Sophie makes a lot of bad decisions throughout season one of Hunting Wives, and yet, I don't know if this is the written character or your portrayal or simply the Britney Snow sensibility.

我看的时候，感觉自己仿佛和她一起在做这些错误的决定。

I feel like when I watch it I'm making the bad decisions with her.

因为索菲做了几次这样的事，你常常会有一种强烈的感受。

There's a visceral feeling you feel many times because Sophie makes a few.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

人们对我非常生气。

People are so angry with me.

我认为这种愤怒源于主角做出了错误的决定，我想在这里把索菲和凯莉·布雷萧联系起来。

I think that anger is it's it's like the protagonist who makes bad decisions and I I would make a connection here between Sophie and Carrie Bradshaw.

我认为凯莉·布雷萧这个角色只做了一个糟糕的决定，但如今在Z世代对她的重新评估中，她因为这个错误决定而被看作是一个坏人。

I think Carrie Bradshaw is a character who made really just one bad decision but is kind of seen through a lot of the Gen Z reassessment reappraisal of Carrie as like a bad person because of a bad decision that she made.

我是凯莉的铁粉。

I'm a Carrie stan.

我也觉得她有点像个糟糕的朋友。

I also think she was kind of a bad friend.

她确实是个糟糕的朋友，但同样也有很多她作为好朋友的时刻。

She was a bad friend but okay there are just as many instances of her being a good friend as being a bad

朋友。

friend.

而且我认为，这是一件道德上模糊的事情，大多数女性都应该是这样的。

And I do argue that that's morally a gray thing that most women should be.

不应该非黑即白，要么是坏朋友，要么是好朋友。

Like there shouldn't be this black and white, you're either a bad friend or a good friend.

这两种情况可以同时存在。

It can exist in both.

但我确实认为她做了一些错误的决定。

But I do think that she made a couple bad decisions.

说得有道理。

Fair enough.

但我非常欣赏你认为我属于凯莉·布拉德肖这类人，因为我觉得这类女性确实应该出现在这类剧集中，因为这就是我们看到的人，也是让我们生气的对象——其实是我们自己。

But I'm very much liking the fact that you think that I'm in the genre of Carrie Bradshaw because I do think that those types of women need to exist in these types of shows because that's who we're seeing, that's who we're getting angry with is ourselves.

是的。

Yes.