第290集 - 罗思的萝卜

好的。

Okay.

哦，原来这就是我想弄清楚的。

Oh, that's what I was trying to work out.

这是无聊问题第一个。

That's question number boring question number one.

关于游戏的第二个无聊问题是，当卡片滑出后，会回到你的手牌中吗？

Boring question number two about the game is when they slide off, do they go back into your hand?

是的。

Yes.

啊。

Ah.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

所以你实际上是在慢慢构建一个小型的，呃，牌组

So you really are kind of building up, like, a small, like, deck of

他们称之为你的同伴牌组。

They call it your fellowship.

好的。

Okay.

但我觉得，当然，我可能错了。

But I think and, you know, I could be wrong.

这个播客的评论区里的人可能已经要喊出来了。

People in the in the comments of this podcast might be crying out.

但我相信，从根本上说，你只有四次机会可以把新牌加入到那个牌堆里。

But I believe that at base, there's only sort of four opportunities you get to add a new card into that stack.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

你还记得我说过，当你把这些板块铺设到主版图上时，可以安置一些小动物吗？

And you know how I said when you build out these tiles onto the the main board, you can house little animals.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是你获得新卡牌的方式。

That's how you get new cards.

但只有每种动物的第一只被安置时，你才能获得新卡牌，而你总是可以选择这么做。

But it's the first animal of each kind that you house, which you always have the option to do.

你总是可以挑选任意一种动物。

You always have you can pick whichever animal you want.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你前四次放置板块，就可能对应获得你的前四张新卡牌。

So your first four tile placements could be your first four new cards.

那可能就是牌堆。

That could be the deck.

那就是你的游戏结束了。

And that's your that's your game done.

这种情况可能会很快发生。

And that can happen pretty quickly.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这并不意味着你的游戏结束了，但你的策略从那时起就基本定型了。

Well, it's it's not your game done, but it's your strategy somewhat set in stone from

从那个点开始就无法改变了。

that point forward.

好坏参半吧。

For better or worse.

而且你知道，有时候选择暂时不行动，等市场情况更理想时再获取卡牌，也是有好处的。

And and and, you know, there are benefits to saying, I'm gonna hold off for now and I'm gonna use my card acquisition later when the market's looking pretty juicy.

但市场的循环速度相当慢。

But the market's quite slow to cycle.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得它有一点点不完美，我几乎想要那种被压紧浓缩后的效果，是的。

There's, like, a little edge of it that I think is a little imperfect and I almost want it just I want the crunched up condensed Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣，因为当我以为这些卡牌可能会滑落并永远消失时，它让我想起了我们之前聊过的一款叫《野生冒险》的游戏，那也是一款类似 tableau 式的卡牌构筑游戏。

It's interesting because I thought, when when I thought the cards might be sliding off and disappearing for good, it kind of reminded me a little bit of a game we talked about a little while called a wild adventure, which was equally kind of like a tableau engine building thing.

而且它

And it

是一款温馨小动物游戏。

was a cozy critter game.

温馨的小动物。

Cozy cozy critters.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我喜欢这一点：在那个游戏中，卡牌机制意味着你会将强大的角色和装备投入战场，但随后你会使用它们，然后它们就会离开。

But that I I enjoyed the fact that in that one, the the nature of the card play meant that you would be putting these powerful characters into play and powerful equipment, but then you would be using them and they would leave.

是的。

Yes.

我喜欢这种感觉，我原本以为它们之间会有一些重叠，但如果这些卡牌会回到你手中，那就不是那种你构建一个引擎然后引擎慢慢消失的情况，而更像是一个不断完善循环的过程。

And I enjoyed the fact that it kind of had this this sense of like, I thought there might be some overlap there, but if they're coming back into your hand, then it's less of a kind of like you have this engine you build and then the engine slowly disappears and more of a like a cycle of like perfecting this loop.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

就像我之前提到的，在上一局游戏中，我完全投入了剑牌，从第二轮开始就让这个引擎运转起来，之后几乎没什么额外的操作能让它变得更好了。

Like, I think that once in the last game I played, I went full in on swords as I mentioned earlier and I had that engine up and running from like round two And there wasn't much extra I could do to make it run better Got almost.

除了清空一些空位，给我更多空间来打出这些卡牌。

Other than clear out the spots that gave me a little bit more runway for playing these cards out.

所以我喜欢Embellief。

So I like Embelief.

我觉得它很不错。

I think it's nice.

玩它的时候我度过了非常愉快的时光。

I had a very pleasant time playing it.

我觉得我不会保留它。

I don't think I'm gonna keep it around.

那真是。

That's

公平。

fair.

我觉得在玩家数量较少的时候，我也会推荐它。

I think I'd probably recommend it at the lower end of the player count as well.

我觉得它最多支持五人游玩。

I think it goes up to like five players.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得你会坐着玩这个游戏差不多三

And I feel like you're gonna be sat playing that game for like three

我觉得你也挺认真对待玩游戏的。

I feel like you take playing games pretty seriously as well.

你不会像那样，你知道的，在别人聊天时随便打闹。

Like you're not you're not like, you know, slapping people when they're they're having a chat.

但与此同时，我们玩大多数游戏时，都能相处得很好。

But at the same time, you know, most of we're having games, we we get on with games.

是的。

Yeah.

我们玩得高效。

We play efficient.

我们玩一款游戏。

We play a game.

对吧？

Right?

我们不会磨磨蹭蹭的。

We're not gonna be dibbling and dabbling.

而我觉得，当我玩一些像这样温馨舒适的游戏时，通常我会想，咱们放松一下吧。

Whereas I feel like often if I'm playing something like this that is cozy and nice, like, that's often the environment where I think, you know, let's chill.

咱们泡杯茶吧。

Let's, you know, get on a cup of tea.

慢慢来。

Let's take our time.

如果游戏时间很长，这种情况就会让游戏节奏拖得更久。

And that's when if games are very long, then it can sort of stretch out.

是的。

Yeah.

它可能会变得拖沓，有点不像在玩游戏了。

It it can sprawl out in a way that's a little ungamely.

我觉得，如果你打算玩的话，两到三个人可能是最合适的。

I I think that it's probably the sweet spot is two or three for this one if you're gonna go for it.

如果你想享受一个温馨的时光。

If you want a cozy time.

如果你想玩一个组合引擎构建型游戏。

If you want a combo y engine builder.

也许如果你不像我这么容易上头，只是坐在那儿看着这个引擎，心想：我要把它榨干。

Maybe if you're not as AP prone as I am, just sat there looking at this engine being like, I'm gonna juice this

对。

Right.

把小黄鼠狼的优势发挥到极致。

Weasel for all it's worth.

你需要一个氛围警报器。

You need the vibes alarm.

是的。

Yeah.

你只需要按下

You need to just hit

时钟，说一声‘氛围’，然后就必须立即做点什么。

the clock and say vibes and then you immediately have to do something.

接下来，我们要聊聊《Roth》。

Next up, we're gonna talk about Roth.

这是一款由曼尼·特伦布莱设计并绘制插画，由Chip Theory Games发行的区域控制游戏。

This is an area control game designed by Manny Tremblay with art by Manny Tremblay, published by Chip Theory Games.

马特，你之前做过这个游戏的评测。

And Matt, you did a review of this one a while ago.

一小段时间前。

A little while ago.

很久以前。

A while ago.

我们在视频里说过，会在播客里某一期讨论这个游戏。

We did say in the video that we would talk about it on the podcast at some point.

我们在这儿。

Here we are.

我们在这儿。

Here we are.

我们是言而有信的人。

We are men's of our words.

正如承诺的那样，我们在播客中讨论这款游戏。

Talking about a game on a podcast as promised.

是的。

Yes.

正如我们的四位先父所承诺的那样。

As was promised by our four fathers.

如果你还没看过视频，那马特会告诉你这款游戏是什么以及如何玩。

If you have not seen the video, then Matt is gonna tell you about what this game is and what you do in it.

是的。

Yes.

我是。

I am.

干得好，汤姆。

Well done, Tom.

谢谢你如此简洁地解释了这个概念。

Thank you for so succinctly explaining the concept.

这个游戏的基本玩法是：你面前有一张小地图，你要把一些小角色放在地图上，然后移动它们，试图控制各个区域。

What we what what this game does is basically you have a little map in front of you, and you're putting little characters onto a map, and you're moving them around to try and take control of areas.

你希望在各个地方占据多数控制权，并且可以通过攻击来移除其他玩家的棋子。

You wanna have majority control of things, and there are ways that you can be removing other people's pieces by attacking them.

但游戏中所有的行动都是通过掷骰子来决定的。

But all of the action in the game is dice drafted actions.

你手中有一把骰子，上面分布着不同的行动选项。

So you have a handful of these dice which have a distribution of different actions on.

你可以执行四种不同的行动，其中两种比较稀有，只出现在骰子的一个面上。

There are four different actions you can do, two of which are rarer, being on just one side of the die.

是的

Yeah.

另外两种动作更常见，出现在骰子的两个面上。

And the other two are more common, being on two sides of the dice.

但你们会掷骰子，然后轮流选择这些骰子。

But you are rolling them and then taking it in turns to pick out these dice.

在那之后，你们会获得公开的信息。

And then after you've done that, you will have this open information.

你们可以看到每个人能做什么，而且大家都轮流行动了一次。

You can see what people can do, and you've all taken in turns to do a thing.

当所有骰子都使用完毕后，你们已经完成了移动部队、在地图上增派部队、攻击他人，或获取更多资源以使用特殊能力——因为有不同的派系。

After all the dice have been played and you've done your your moving troops, reinforcing more troops on the map, attacking people, or getting some more resources to use special powers because there are different factions.

游戏中有五个不同的派系。

There are five different factions in the game.

这是一款色彩极其鲜艳的霓虹风格游戏，棋子 brightly colored pieces。

It's a astoundingly colorful neon thing, brightly colored pieces.

实际上，拍摄时几乎成了个问题，因为用普通光线拍摄时，颜色看起来太亮了。

It's actually it was almost a problem to film in the fact that, like, filming it normally under normal light, the colors looked just too bright.

是的。

Yeah.

我真不知道该怎么办。

And I didn't really know what to do.

我第一次几乎想到要反向调色，试着从素材中去掉一些色彩。

I I I almost thought for the first time of, like, reverse grading it and trying to, like, remove some of the color from the footage.

让它变得暗淡些。

Make it duller.

但后来我想，这其实不太对，我不确定。

But then I was like, well, that's not really I I don't know.

它的霓虹效果非常惊艳，而且特别有趣。

It was it's it's astoundingly neon in a way that's very fun.

是的。

Yeah.

但基本上，是的，你会进行多轮游戏。

But, basically, yeah, you play through rounds.

在每轮结束时，当所有人都完成行动后，你会查看谁控制了更多区域从而得分，以及谁因为其他一些小条件获得了额外分数。

And at the end of the round, when everyone has done their actions, you just look to see who gets points for being in control of areas, and then who gets bonus points for other little criterias to do it.

比如你完全掌控了一个区域？

Like, you completely dominating an area?

你是否在区域内拥有特殊单位，拥有它们会给你更多分数，等等。

Do you have special units in the area that get you more points for having them there, etcetera.

当有人达到30分时，游戏结束。

And the game ends when someone has 30 points.

经典。

Classic.

像Root那样的风格。

Root style.

绝对经典。

Absolutely classic.

而且，你知道的，这款游戏有霓虹幻想的风格。

And, you know, in terms of it, got neon fantasy.

你有霓虹矮人。

You got neon dwarves.

你有霓虹兽人。

You got neon orcs.

你有霓虹精灵。

You got neon elves.

我不觉得这款游戏是奇幻题材。

I don't think this game is fantasy.

它自称是奇幻，但这种霓虹色调在现实世界里太夸张了，汤姆。

Like, it says it's fantasy, but it's too neon to be colors like that in the real world, Tom.

不过在奇幻世界里倒是可以。

Not in the fantasy world, though.

奇幻世界应该是绿色和棕色的。

Fantasy is like green and brown.

也许不是。

Maybe not.

我觉得，对于一个大约一个月前才刚看完一部《指环王》电影的人来说，

I think I think think I think for somebody who's only just watched the one of the Lord of the Rings films recently about a month ago

听好了。

Listen.

我觉得你现在正迅速成为一位奇幻题材专家。

I I think you're very rapidly becoming an expert on fantasy now.

这《指环王》已经直接让你

This has gone this Lord of Rings has gone straight to

头脑发热了。

your head.

是的。

Yeah.

《指环王》？我跟你说吧。

Lord of Rings me tell you.

没有粉红色，但也许应该用。

Didn't have any hot pink, but maybe it should.

也许本来就应该用。

Maybe it should've done.

我其实正在看《指环王》第二部，续集，还有《指环王》

I'm actually watching Lord of the Rings two, the sequel, and Lord of the

第三部，你要去电影院吗？

Rings three You're going to the cinema.

在电影院看第一部。

One in the cinema.

哦。

Oh.

我其实做了一件相当不明智的事，因为我正在看这两部的加长版。

And I'm actually doing something quite ill advised because I'm watching the extended versions of both.

不会吧。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我觉得这样应该没问题。

I think I think it'd be fine.

我们已经讨论过这个了。

We talked about this.

我同意。

I'm in

你要在那里待上七个半小时。

there for, like, seven and a half hours.

伙计，你就算在那儿待七个半小时，也是在做别的事。

Buddy, you'd just be in here for seven and a half hours doing something else.

这确实没错。

That's very true.

看《幸存者》或者玩电子游戏。

Watching survivor or playing video games.

但这些活动至少有一定的多样性。

But there's at least there's a variety in those activities.

当然。

Sure.

你这纯粹就是矮人。

You This is just dwarves.

当然。

Sure.

你在家里时，不需要往瓶子里撒尿。

When you're at home, you don't have to piss into a bottle.

但你知道的，除此之外，完全一样。

But, you know, apart from that, it's exactly the same.

而且，老兄，会有大量的多样性。

Also, mate, there'll be tons of variety.

这不只是矮人。

It's not just dwarves.

还有很多呢。

There's loads.

这些电影里发生的事情太多了，老兄。

So much stuff happens in these films, man.

你得期待的东西，我都懒得说了。

You've got I don't even wanna say what you've got to look forward to.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道我有什么。

Don't know what I've got.

你有一些令人兴奋的角色。

You've got some exciting characters.

角色。

Characters.

当人们听说我要看《指环王》时，经常提到的一点是，你还没看过德内梭尔。

What I've heard a lot about when people have been, like, hyped to hear me watch Lord of the Rings, they go, oh, you're you've not seen Denethor yet.

还没。

Nope.

他们一直谈论德内梭尔，我真的不知道怎么回事。

They just keep talking about Denethor and I I'm I'm I don't know.

我听说过番茄。

I've heard about tomatoes.

对。

Right.

我听说的就是这个。

That's what I've heard about.

说实话，是关于番茄的。

Honestly in Tomatoes.

现在出问题了，但我都记不清达娜是谁了。

Trouble now, but I I can't even remember who Dana

索尔是。

Thor is.

所以如果我再看一遍这部电影，我肯定会想，哦，是的。

So I I I'm sure if watch the film again, I'd like, oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你一定会玩得很开心。

You're you're gonna have a great time.

但没错，我觉得那种霓虹糖果般的幻想才是我想说的。

But, yeah, I I I think that neon candy fantasy is is what I'd say.

我认为，为了我们自身的安全，他们有时会给幻想世界加上一点色彩减弱器或饱和度中和器，防止我们沉迷过度。

I think that I think that maybe for our own safety, they'd sometimes, put a little, a color dampener saturation nullifier on fantasy to stop us from getting too much.

但我也能举出一些非常霓虹风格的幻想例子。

But also, I can give you examples of very neony fantasies.

是的。

Yeah.

《阿莫洛王国》是我最爱的十款游戏中的第七名。

Kingdoms of Kingdoms of Amolor, one of my favorite seven out of 10 video games of all time.

这确实是一款纯粹的七分游戏。

That is a pure seven out 10.

这款游戏用了许多鲜艳明亮的色彩。

That had some really good bright colors in it.

这显然是一个带有正面评价的七分，而不是负面评价的七分。

That's very much a seven out of 10 in brackets positive rather than a seven out of 10 in brackets negative.

我认为根本不存在什么负面的七分。

I don't think there's any such thing as a negative seven out of 10.

一个负七分就是六分。

A negative seven out of 10 is a six out of 10.

我曾经为杂志工作过。

I used to work for magazines.

相信我。

Trust me.

这完全是胡说八道，但同时也完全正确。

It's it's absolute nonsense, but also it's completely true.

是的。

Yeah.

《魔兽世界》也是。

Guild Wars as well.

总之，你是可以使用色彩的。

Anyway, you're you're allowed colors.

你是可以使用色彩的。

You're allowed colors.

这算是一个旁支话题，意思是我們決定允許使用顏色。

That's a sideways sidebar to say we decided that it's okay to have colors.

雖然我明白你的意思。

Although I I do get what you mean.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我的意思是，你想要的是泥土感。

I guess what I mean is that like You want mud.

感覺像一款奇幻遊戲。

Feel like a fantasy game.

我同意，是的。

I will agree Yeah.

這種主題設定並非必要。

That the theming in this is not necessary.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个艺术风格。

I like the art.

我喜欢这些颜色，但感觉不到任何真实的空间感，没有。

I like the colors, but it doesn't feel like there's any sense of real, like, place No.

或者任何事物。

Or things.

是的。

Yeah.

这相当抽象。

It's quite abstract.

它

It

是的。

is.

不过，你确实能感受到这些动作的氛围。

Although, you do get the the feeling of the actions.

对我来说，这就像玩《幽暗地城》时一样，那些技能名称能让你在脑海中浮现出你正在做什么的具体画面。

To me, it's almost like a bit like in the same way that when you're playing Gloomhaven, the the names of the moves give you a physical image of, like, what you're doing.

是的。

Yeah.

你就会觉得，没错。

You're being like, yeah.

我正在做这件事。

I'm doing this.

是的。

Yeah.

这里就像是，你知道的，你往整个地图上射箭，摧毁一切。

Where this has, like, you know, you're you're firing arrows across the whole map and destroying everything.

你感染了某个人，他们死了，然后你这边有一个人复活了。

You're, like, you're infecting someone and they die and then one of your people come back.

它在某种程度上唤起了其他事物的感觉，使其在机制上具有表现力，即使从主题或其他方面来看并非如此。

It's it's evocative of other things in a way that makes it mechanically evocative even if in terms of theme or anything like that.

它并不是真的想做到那样。

It's not really trying to do that and that.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我同意。

I agree.

我不认为它旨在成为一款非常富有主题性的游戏，但它在需要的地方已经足够有主题感了。

I don't think it's shooting to necessarily be like a super thematic game, but it's like thematic enough in the spaces where it needs to be.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这款游戏的原因是，它确实满足了那种渴望——想看到色彩鲜艳的元素在地图上移动、互相摧毁的感觉。

And the reason that I like this game is because it really does tickle that itch of having that sort of game where you want to see brightly colorful things being moved around a map of and destroying each other Mhmm.

然后获胜。

And then winning.

有人会说，那个人是个问题。

And having someone going, that person's a problem.

我们应该去攻击他们。

We should go and attack them.

你应该和我们一起攻击他们，或者

You should hit them with us or

这正是人们想玩的关键类型游戏之一，尤其是对于那些不常玩游戏的人。

Which is like one of the key sorts of games that people want to play, especially if people don't play games that often.

他们会说，我喜欢桌游。

Well, they go, I like board games.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们想玩要么是自己熟悉的游戏，要么是看起来有点像这样的游戏。

They want to play either something they know or they wanna play something that looks a bit like this.

他们想要一种源自《风险》那片混沌泥潭中的游戏。

They they they wanna have something that's kind of spawned from the murky pit of Risk.

就是，你知道的，他们想要某种东西，

Like, you know, they want something that,

比如，没法玩《风险》，但他们以为自己想玩。我本来差点把这句话写进剧本里，但后来我跑题了，干脆删掉了整个部分，因为我觉得这根本行不通。

like, can't get play risk, but they think they want to play I almost had this as a line in the script, but then I ended up going on a a digression and cutting the whole thing because I was like, this is just no.

但人们以为自己想玩《风险》。

But people think they want to play risk.

对。

Right.

但人们喜欢的是《风险》这个概念，而不是它的实际玩法

But people like the idea of Risk rather than the reality of

《风险》。

Risk.

对吧？

Right?

所以人们经常说：‘我们能玩点类似这样的游戏吗？’

And so often people will go, oh, can we play something like this?

我意识到，真正能做到这一点的游戏其实没多少。

And I realized there aren't actually that many games that that do that.

正因为如此，我特别喜欢它。

For that reason, I really enjoyed it.

我很享受把它当作一种轻松的周六下午活动，一边吃着薯片和蘸酱，一边和别人玩、互相竞争。

And I really enjoyed it as a a kind of, like, very kind of chill Saturday afternoon chips and dips playing a game, fighting each other sort of thing.

我和朋友们玩的时候，这个游戏反响非常好。

And it it it went down really well with groups that I played it with.

规则简单易教，上手很快，而且我真的玩得很开心。

It was easy to teach, easy to get going, and, yeah, I had a lot of fun with it.

我很喜欢这个游戏。

I enjoyed it.

我确实发现，在游戏边缘存在一些模糊地带，比如有时候你能通过观察游戏状态并巧妙操控，彻底击垮对手，而别人却根本不知道你在做什么。

I definitely found that there was some, like, fuzziness around the edge in terms of, like, sometimes having games where you could really demolish people if you looked at the state of the game and manipulated it effectively without people knowing what you were doing.

从那以后，看到我们在评论区收到的反馈，也挺有意思的。

And then it's been interesting furthering on from that to see some of the reactions to the review that we've had in comments and stuff.

而且，人们真的会说，我知道有些人批评说：‘我真的很惊讶你喜欢这个游戏，因为我们觉得这游戏严重不平衡。’

And, like, people actually, like, you know, I can see one of the the criticisms that people have is people saying, oh, I'm really surprised you like this because we found the game really unbalanced.

我已经看到很多人说过这一点。

And that's something that I've seen a bunch of people saying.

这其实是我尽量不在评测游戏时去看别人怎么说的一个有趣副作用，因为那样会污染我的判断。

This is an interesting side effect of the fact that I I try not to look at what anyone is saying about games when I'm reviewing them because it will taint my brain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这会让我怀疑自己，甚至改变自己的看法。

And it will make me second guess myself or change my own opinion

当然。

Sure.

这种做法对评论者来说并不健康，尤其是当你去网上看人们的看法时，他们的观点往往已经受到了其他评论者的影响，等等。

In a way that is just not healthy for critics to do, especially when usually if you go and read what people think online, often their opinions are already being formed by other critics who have told them things, etcetera.

是的。

Yeah.

你根本不知道那是别人的真实想法，还是二手观点。

Rather than just you you never know if it's someone's, like, real their opinion or a secondhand opinion.

如果不小心，你最终可能会陷入观点的泥潭。

If you're not careful, you can end up with opinion sludge.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是桌游，有一种非常特定的现象：人们在Kickstarter上支持某些项目，并希望它们能非常出色。

And with board games especially, there's a there's a real, like, specific phenomena of people backing things on Kickstarter and willing them to be excellent.

完全正确。

A 100%.

于是你就会看到一些评论，人们热情洋溢地赞美，还明确提到自己买了哪些产品。

So you get these reviews that are, like, people really glowing and they mention exactly what products they have acquired Exactly.

并附上这些评论。

Alongside this review.

所以我喜欢保持距离，只相信自己的直觉。

So I I like to try and keep a distance and just stick with my own gut.

然后，在事情完成并发布出去之后，我会去听听别人的想法，有时会觉得挺有意思的。

And then afterwards, after the deed is done and it's out in the wild, I will then listen to what other people think and and find that interesting sometimes.

有时候我会发现自己和大家的看法非常一致。

And sometimes I find myself very much aligning with what everyone thinks.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但有时候我并不这么认为。

Other times I don't.

比如我记得我最早的一篇评测是关于《Takanoko》的，我觉得那款游戏挺烂的。

Like, I remember one of my first reviews was Takanoko, and I thought that game kinda sucked.

我现在还是觉得那款游戏挺烂的。

I still think that game's kinda sucked.

还行吧。

It's alright.

但大家都很喜欢它。

People loved it.

还行吧。

It's alright.

当我突然出现时，他们很生气。

And they were mad when I came out of nowhere.

我心想，这个备受喜爱的东西其实并不好。

I was like, this beloved thing is not good.

马特，这游戏有个可爱的熊猫和竹子。

Matt, it's got a cute panda and bamboo.

我根本不知道它备受喜爱。

I didn't even know it was beloved.

另一方面，警官。

And on the other hand Officer.

比如《Frosthaven》，我发布那篇评测时感到非常焦虑，因为我完全不知道大家的反响如何。

Like, Frosthaven, I'm I was felt very anxious about putting that review up because I had no idea really what the reception had been.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

看到其他人对它也持冷淡态度，我松了一口气，是的。

And it was a relief to see that other people had been a bit lukewarm with it as well Yeah.

因为我就准备好要在网上被狠狠批评了。

Because I was kind of ready to get my ass kicked on the Internet for that.

尤其是因为《Frosthaven》，我觉得它的目标受众都是特别烧脑的《Gloomhaven》玩家。

Especially because for Frosthaven, I feel like the audience that's catering towards is real big brain gloomhaveners.

是的。

Yeah.

就我个人而言，我不觉得——我是说，我仅代表我自己，也许你也一样，我不确定。

And personally, I don't think I mean, I'm speaking for myself and maybe you, I don't know.

但我不觉得自己是那种烧脑型的《Gloomhaven》玩家。

But I don't consider myself a big brain gloomhavener.

我是个靠感觉玩《Gloomhaven》的玩家。

I'm a vibes gloomhavener.

我两者都有一点，但，是的，我不确定。

I'm a bit of both, but but, yeah, I I I don't know.

我对此感到很焦虑。

I I I had I had anxiousness about that.

有时候，我们会发现我们的观众和我们志同道合。

And, you know, occasionally, we find that our audience aligns with us.

有时候，却并不是这样。

Occasionally, it doesn't.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我想聊聊这个，因为Roth是个很有趣的作品，但我真的很喜欢它。

But I want to talk about this because of the fact that Roth was an interesting one, but I really enjoyed it.

我回去后玩了很多遍。

I went away and I played it a whole bunch of times.

是的。

Yeah.

但你确实和我一起玩过一次，汤姆。

But you don't you played it once with me, Tom.

我只玩过一次。

I've had it once.

我不喜欢。

Didn't like it.

不。

No.

这正是那种情况，本来会很棒，我想人们会说：‘为什么汤姆在评测里没说明他为什么不喜欢呢？’

And that is it's one of those things where it would have been great, and I think people will be like, well, why didn't Tom come in the review and say why he didn't like it?

但事实上，我觉得我会和你有同样的感受。

But it's a tricky position of the fact that I think I would feel the same as you.

我不会想在只玩过一次游戏后，就作为双人评测的一部分参与进来。

I wouldn't wanna be a part of a review as a two header having just played a game once.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是因为我们玩的那一次特别不稳定。

And especially because that one play of it that we played was so wonky.

没错。

Yes.

那次游戏体验实在太糟糕了，某种程度上让我彻底对它失去了兴趣。

It was an incredibly, like, rough play of that game that kind of I think it sort of soured me on it for good in a way.

这倒也合理。

Well, that's fair.

因为我觉得，在那场游戏中，马特迅速变得极其强大，只用了四回合就赢了。

Because I think that, like, we essentially, there was a a situation that we had in that game where Matt got incredibly powerful, incredibly quickly, and won the game in like four turns.

是的。

Yeah.

差不多就是这样。

Something like that.

我觉得我主要的问题是，就像网上有人说的，感觉游戏不平衡。

And I think the main problem that I had with it was it felt like, as people have said online, it felt unbalanced.

对。

Right.

感觉你所使用的技能被过度强化了，以至于我和另一个玩家根本无法阻止你赢得比赛。

It felt like the powers that you were deploying were sufficiently juiced that there was nothing that me or the other person playing the game could really do to possibly stop you from getting that win.

后来，我也去网上查了一下。

And later on, it was kind of like I've I've also looked online.

我看到有人说有两件事。

I've seen people have said that there were two things.

第一件事是，你所玩的派系似乎被设计得必须以不同的方式运作。

Thing number one, the the faction you were playing was apparently eroded to to have to work differently.

对。

Right.

而且之后规则也进行了修改。

And and the rules have been changed after that.

但同时，我所玩的这个派系通常被认为是非常弱且不平衡的。

But also the faction that I was playing is kind of routinely understood to be really underpowered and underbalanced.

我发现，在网上查看Roth这款游戏时，Board Game Geek上有大量帖子，人们都在自行修改规则。

And I found it really fascinating that looking at Roth online, like, there's tons of threads on Board Game Geek of people house ruling this game.

我觉得这是因为人们真的很想喜欢它。

And I think that's people really want to like it.

有意思。

Interesting.

人们真的很想爱上它。

People really wanna love it.

但他们也觉得某些能力太过强势了。

But they also find that some of the abilities are just a little too over tuned.

我认为让我对它失去兴趣的主要原因，就是第一次玩的时候感觉太荒谬了。

And I think that that was the main thing that put me off of it, is that first play of it just felt like, I don't know, just too silly in a way.

我明白。

I hear you.

而且我

And I

我不介意玩一些滑稽的游戏。

don't mind silly games.

比如，我真的很喜欢《宇宙碰撞》之类的游戏。

Like, I really like Cosmic Encounter or whatever.

没错。

Exactly.

但我觉得这款游戏并不属于那个类型。

But I don't think that this game is fitting in that niche.

它仍然试图保持一种尖锐、竞争性强且有实质性的感觉。

It's still trying to be, like, kind of toothy and competitive and and have some real grip to it.

但我感觉在这款游戏里，我做的任何事情几乎都毫无意义，因为从第一回合开始，就出现了力量的爆发，你瞬间就占据了所有重要的得分位置。

But I felt like anything I could have done in that game was almost completely void because from turn one, just there was this explosion of power and suddenly you had all of the great scoring positions.

我觉得我们当时确实遇到了一个不幸的、被诅咒的组合。

I think we had, yeah, we had the an unfortunate, like A cursed combo.

一个被诅咒的组合，一团混乱。当时我们使用的一个规则现在已经被修正了，因为那条规则在手册上或卡片上写得不对。

A cursed combo conflagration of of obviously, one of the rules that we were using at the time was now being changed in errata because it it was not right in the manual or, you know, it wasn't right on the card.

但另一方面，我玩了很多次，而且我们的棋盘布局很有趣。

But also the fact that, like, I played it a bunch and we had an interesting board setup.

所以，我很快就利用了这个优势，游戏立刻就结束了。

So, like, we and then basically, I just, like, I took advantage of it very quickly, and the game was just over immediately.

这几乎是那种情况，我觉得这确实是个棘手的问题，因为是的。

It was almost and it was one of those things where, like, I think, like, the it's it's a tricky one in the fact that, like, yes.

你 understandably 因此对它失去了兴趣，不想再玩了。

Like, you understandably then soured from it and didn't wanna play it again.

这很合理。

Fair enough.

我肯定有很多人会有类似的反应，嗯。

And lots of people, I'm sure, would have similar reactions Mhmm.

如果他们坐下来玩一款他们以为会是激烈、有策略性的游戏，是的。

If they were sitting down to play something that they thought would be a a toothy, like Yeah.

战术类游戏。

Tactical game.

所以这非常合理，这也是我为什么想在播客里讨论这个问题，因为这类情况中，让某人站在一个相对固定的位置上发表观点时，如果他们自己都不确定这些想法是否完全成立，那就不太公平。

And so it's, like, super valid, and that's why I wanted to talk about this on the podcast because it's of those things where, like, it's not fair to have someone in

在评测中，感觉像是

in a review, it feels like a

稍微更固定了一些，而有人却站在高台上说‘这是我的看法’，但其实他们自己也觉得这些观点并不完全确凿。

little bit more fixed in stone and to have someone stand up on a pedestal and say, these are my thoughts as part of that when they don't feel like they're a 100% are, like, concrete on it.

不。

No.

而且这还是我们几个月前玩过的一个游戏。

And from it was, like, a game we played, like, months ago as well.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我尤其不太有信心在评测中称它为不平衡。

And I especially didn't feel necessarily that confident in calling it unbalanced Right.

因为我只玩过一次。

In a review when I've only played it once.

百分之百。

A 100%.

如果我也有同样的感受，我就不想做这件事了。

And I I I if I felt the same, I wouldn't wanna do this thing.

但这确实非常有趣。

But it is it is really interesting, actually.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我觉得，确实存在一些修正，而且看到人们讨论平衡性时的各种观点，我觉得特别有意思。

Because I think that, like, there's definitely you know, there there are errata for it, and I found it really interesting looking at the the the spread of people talking about balance.

而且人们的看法混合在一起，有些人说：我简直不敢相信。

And it was an interesting mix of some people being like, I can't believe this.

这太不平衡了。

This is so unbalanced.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有其他人说，我们非常喜欢这个游戏。

And other people being like, we love this game.

我们已经玩过无数次了。

We've played it, like, countless times.

这对我来说非常有趣。

And it's it's very interesting to me.

而且我确实同意，有些能力确实非常强大。

And the fact that, like, I do agree that, like, some of the powers, like, are very powerful.

是的。

Yes.

这可能确实不平衡。

And it may be unbalanced.

但我觉得有趣的是，我从未真正把它当作一种严肃的战术游戏来对待。

But I find it interesting in the fact that, like, I really didn't ever approach it as, like, a serious, like, tactical, like.

当然。

Sure.

我总是把它看作一种不太一样的东西，你其实并没有在掷骰子。

I always I was always approaching it as something a bit more, like, you're not actually rolling dice.

你不是在玩《风险》。

You're not playing Risk.

你也不是在掷骰子、进攻之类的。

You're not, like, rolling dice and attacking and stuff.

但我确实觉得，这和《宇宙碰撞》类似，都是在地图上移动角色，必须应对他们过于强大的情况等等。

But I did feel it was that much more, like, we're moving people around a map and we gotta get them because they're too powerful, etcetera, in the same vein as, like, Cosmic Encounter.

对。

Right.

而且我觉得那种

And I think the sort

基于骰子的核心机制确实很好地引导你进入这种心态，因为我真的很喜欢这个游戏的一点，就是它强调这是一场战术性的博弈，而不是战略性的。

of the dice based core of it does do a good job of trying to push you towards that mindset in the sense that one thing I really like about the game is that focus on it being a tactical proposition rather than a strategic one.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，拥有各种能力本身也涉及一些策略。

There is obviously some strategy to the fact that you'll have powers.

我该在游戏的哪个阶段触发这些能力？

When am I gonna trigger them across the course of the game?

我该如何积累自己的实力？

How am I gonna build up my strength?

但由于每回合由这些骰子决定，我认为这确实是一个非常好的方式，正如你在评测中提到的，能让人始终停留在战术层面，同时也能消除一些负面感受。

But the fact that the turn by turn is determined by these dice, I think, is a really great way of, as you pointed out in the review, keeping people in that tactical tactical space, space, but but also also taking taking out out some some of of the the the bad vibes

是的。

Yeah.

这种机制确保了你必须掷骰子，从而促使所有人立即采取进攻，这消除了区域控制类游戏中常见的那种潜在的负面氛围——当玩家开始结盟时，游戏往往会变得更政治化或更外交化。

Of making sure that you're rolling these dice and it encourages immediate aggression from everyone, which takes out some of that, like, nastiness that can brew under the surface of area control games when people start making these alliances and things sort of, you know, become more political or diplomatic.

这里不一样，从第一回合开始，你就得和邻居开战。

This is just, no, you're gonna fight your neighbors from turn one.

没错。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

如果有人领先，你就去攻击他。

And if someone's in the lead, you go and fight them.

你上去给他重重一击。

You go and give them a big whack.

我觉得，这种抽象化确实很有帮助。

It's like, that's where the abstraction, I think, really helps.

对。

Right.

这种感觉就像是，很自然地，我当然要打你。

Is that it feels like this kind of abstract, like, well, course, I'm gonna hit you.

你领先了。

You're in the lead.

而领先的人也会觉得，这很公平。

And the person's in the lead goes, fair enough.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我也觉得，有些游戏确实很有趣，比如《Cosmic》这款游戏，里面有这么多不同的外星人，还有这么多可选择的卡牌。

And I also feel like there's just that matter of, like it's interesting how with certain games, like Cosmic example, you have so many different aliens in that and so many different things that you can draft as options.

但如果你像我们这样玩，选两张然后只留一张，嗯。

But it's almost like, you know, if you play the way we did, if you take two and choose one Mhmm.

如果你选了一个明显很烂的，嗯。

It's like if you chose one that was, like, clearly horrible Mhmm.

那你基本上就是主动把自己送上去被欺负了。

Like, you you basically were, like, signing yourself up to be getting bullied.

所以有趣的是，我觉得确实存在这么一种情况，我不会去争论这个游戏是否平衡。

And so it's funny how, you know, it's like, I think there is that, you know, I'm not gonna argue, like, whether or not this game is balanced.

说实话，我玩过很多次了，但我真的不太擅长看出这些平衡性问题。

I honestly, like, I've played it a bunch, and I'm not good at, like, seeing that stuff.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道。

And I don't know.

我的直觉让我觉得，它在社交层面上已经足够平衡了。

And my gut makes me feel like it is probably socially balanced enough Mhmm.

有些能力确实非常强大，但在大多数游戏中，如果你一开始就这么做，你的行为会非常明显，其他人很可能会立刻联合起来对付你。

That, like, there are powers that are very strong, but in most games, if you did that early on, it'd be so visible what you've done that everyone would probably gang up on you immediately.

是的。

Yeah.

而当他们说某个派系比其他派系弱时，这对我来说很有趣，因为你几乎会陷入类似《暮光帝国》那样的情况。

And having this thing where they say, well, this faction is weaker than the other factions, it kind of for me, it's an interesting one because you kind of almost get into the same territory of something like Twilight Imperium.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Sure.

比如有些派系，人们会觉得这个派系挺差的。

Where, like, you you do have factions where people are like, this one's kinda sucks.

但当你选择这个派系时，你反而可能赢，因为别人不会针对你，因为你不是那个问题派系。

But then it's like, you play that one, and you might win because people aren't gonna bully you because you're not the problem one.

你是

You're

一个meta上较弱的派系。

a meta weak one.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你就是那个问题所在。

Because you're like, you know, you you are the the issue.

但同样地，当我们讨论那些在真空中做的评价，偶尔会遇到瓶颈的时候。

But then, again, by the same merit, like, in talking about reviews that we do in a vacuum and then occasionally hit a wall with.

比如《星际帝国》第四部的第一个扩展包。

Like, the the first Twilight Imperium four expansion.

我真的很期待去体验一下。

I'm really excited to check out on you.

我听说关于它的一些评价很不错。

I've heard some good things about it.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我想再去看看它。

I wanna go look at it again.

但就社区对这个扩展的看法以及我们（尤其是我）对它的感受而言。

But, like, in terms of how the community felt about that expansion and how we felt about it, well, how I felt about it.

我玩过那一版，而且那个主意是我提的。

I played that bunch and I was the one that did the thing.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我完全不认同，大家对此都很不满，到现在还是不满。

I I did not align at all, and people were really annoyed about that and still are annoyed about that.

因为从他们的角度来看，他们觉得核心游戏非常不平衡。

Because from their perspective, they were like, the core game is really unbalanced.

是的。

Yeah.

这个修复了所有平衡问题。

This fixes all of the balance problems.

但对我来说，问题是这样的：我根本没注意到核心游戏不平衡，因为我们玩的时候都特别随意、放松，对吧？

But for me, it was that thing where I'm like, I didn't notice that the core game is unbalanced because we're all we were already playing it on such a kind of in such a fast and loose vibes y way Right.

大家根本不会去想：‘什么是战术？什么才是最优解？’

Of people not being like, well, what's the tactical what's the optimal thing here?

人们只是随便攻击别人，然后说：‘他们赢了。’

People just swinging at people and going, well, they're winning.

干掉他们。

Kill them.

当然，这并不是我玩每款游戏的方式。

And, you know, obviously, that's not how I play every game.

但有些类型的游戏，我非常乐意稍微放松一下，让大脑稍微休息一下，是的。

But there are certain types of games where I am, like, more than happy to slow like, slightly disengage my brain Yeah.

然后就是，干掉他们。

And be like, get them.

看到玩家们如何将这些设计得比较宽松、对平衡性要求不那么严格的游戏，随着时间推移逐渐强行赋予它们平衡性，这真的很有意思。

It it is really interesting seeing how communities of players will take these games that are designed in this way of kind of being a little loose and and less kind of strict on balance, and then kind of force balance onto them over time.

比如《暮光帝国》就是一个很好的例子。

Like Twilight Imperium, great example.

这款游戏从一开始就有种随性自在的氛围，但围绕它却形成了一群不断要求它变得越来越竞技化的玩家群体。

Game that I think has kind of been vibes y from the beginning, but there's been this community around it that's demanded it become more and more and more competitive.

是的。

Yeah.

Root这款游戏也发生了完全相同的情况。

And much the same thing happened to Root as well.

它被设计成一个沙盒式游戏，拥有这些并非完全精准平衡的能力。

Like, it's designed as this sort of sandbox that has these powers that aren't necessarily perfectly tuned.

这更多是关于玩家之间的关系

It's more about how player relationships

因为Root根本不是一款设计成要反复玩的游戏。

because it's not I mean, Root wasn't a game designed to be played, like, over and over and over again.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

但它确实被反复玩了。

But it has been.

我知道。

I know.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

百分之百。

A 100%.

所以现在它变成了一款游戏，围绕它建立了一套非常精简的竞技规则体系，因为社区希望获得一种敏锐且平衡的体验。

And so now it's, like, a game that has this very, very sort of streamlined competitive rule set that's been built up around it because the community wants to have this, like, sharp and balanced experience.

我想，我对Root的问题甚至不完全是针对这单一的一次游玩。

I guess my my problem with Roth isn't even necessarily outside of this one play.

我想，让我不想再回去的更大原因是，我玩过一些游戏，虽然感觉不平衡，或者早期就被碾压，但我依然想回来，因为我觉得这些系统非常有趣。

I guess that my my bigger thing that made me not wanna go back to it is that I've had games that have felt unbalanced or I've been stomped early on, but I've wanted to come back for more because I found the systems really interesting.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

而且我

And I

对我来说，我发现区域控制类游戏中有各种不同类型的游戏，它们都属于区域控制，但……

think for me at least, I found that in the area control space, there are all these different kinds of games that are kind of their area control but.

是的。

Yes.

对我来说，我认为‘但’这个部分通常才是让游戏真正有趣的地方，嗯。

And for me at least, I think the but is normally what makes things really interesting Mhmm.

这就是为什么我会选择玩它，而不是像《El Grande》这样的游戏。

And the reason why I would play it over like El Grande.

对吧？

Right?

在我看来，《El Grande》可以说是区域控制类游戏的完美典范。

To me at least, El Grande is kind of area control perfected.

它就是那种简单基础的玩法——去这里，占领这片区域，做战术考量，获取分数。

It is the the simple basic, you know, go here, claim this territory, do tactical considerations, get points.

即使你迭代成百上千次，也很难再比它更好了。

It's that you're not gonna get much better than it, even if you iterate hundreds and hundreds of times.