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嘿，大家。
Hey, guys.
欢迎来到硅谷女孩。
Welcome to Silicon Valley Girl.
我们即将采访多邻国的创始人。
We are about to interview the founder of Duolingo.
哦。
Oh.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
Duo，不是你。
Duo, not you.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我们真的请到创始人了吗？
Do we have the actual founder?
你好。
Hi.
你好。
Hi.
你好。
Hi.
你的员工们有点创意过头了。
Your employees are getting a little creative.
我们雇了这个人，他有自己的个性。
We pay that guy, and he has his own personality.
他就是想干嘛就干嘛。
He just does what he wants.
AI不会抢走你的工作。
AI is not gonna take your job.
但会用AI的人可能会抢走你的工作。
Somebody using AI is gonna take your job.
这是多邻国的首席执行官路易斯·冯·安。
This is Luis von Ahn, CEO of Duolingo.
最近，他的两名员工在六个月里用AI开发了一门国际象棋课程。
Recently, two of his employees built a chess course with AI in six months.
他们既没有工程背景，也不懂这个领域。
No engineering background, no knowledge of the subject.
它成为了公司增长最快的课程。
It became fastest growing course in the company.
有很多传言说大公司裁员，他们说是AI的原因。
There are a lot of rumors that large companies fire people, and they say it's AI.
我们从未进行过裁员。
We have never done a layoff.
尽管互联网可能有不同看法，但继续招聘人员仍然很重要，因为现在的单个员工比以往高效得多。
Despite what the Internet may think, it is important to continue hiring people because a single employee is just way more productive now than they used to be.
我是专业人士，你来做一些预测。
I'm professions, and you're gonna make some predictions.
五年内会消失，还是不会有任何变化。
Gone in five years or not going anywhere.
会越来越少。
There'll be fewer and fewer.
路易斯，你告诉团队，除非团队先证明AI能完成这项工作，否则不得招聘任何人。
Luis, you told your team that nobody gets hired unless team proves AI can do the work first.
你能告诉我，作为创始人，你是如何实际追踪这一点的吗？
Can you tell me how you actually track that as a founder?
我们的目标是利用人工智能来造福我们的用户。
Our goal here is to use AI to benefit our users.
在内部，我们有一条黄金准则。
Internally, have this golden rule.
我们只会在有益于学习者的情况下使用人工智能。
We're only going to use AI to benefit our learners.
有些人可能会想象，一些公司正在裁员，让人工智能取代他们的工作。
Some people may imagine that, you know, some companies may be firing people and having AI do their job.
我们完全不是在这么做。
That's not what we're doing whatsoever.
在过去几年里，我们的团队在使用人工智能方面有了显著提升，这让我们能够完成更多工作。
Our team has gotten significantly better at using AI over the last, you know, couple of years And that has allowed us to do a lot more.
这让我们能够产出更多内容，更多的学习内容等等。
It has allowed us to put out a lot more content, a lot more learning content, etcetera.
作为管理团队，我们并不一定在追踪你是否在做AI能做的事情。
We, as a management team, are not necessarily tracking like, oh, are you doing something that AI can do or not?
我们只是在努力告诉每个人，尽可能高效地使用AI，而我们的员工确实正在这样做。
We're just really trying to tell everyone, try to be as efficient as possible with AI, and our employees are doing that.
你能给我一些团队中的最佳案例吗？
And can you give me some of the best examples from the team?
对于正在观看这段视频的人，他们可能会想：‘我的经理让我开始使用AI，但我完全不知道该怎么做’，你们有没有一些最佳案例？
For someone who's watching this and they're like, Okay, my manager tells me to start using AI, I have no idea how to do it, do you have like best case examples?
这取决于你的工作岗位。
It depends on what your job role is.
我认为我们大多数工程师都已经彻底改变了他们的工作流程。
I think most of our engineers have basically really changed their workflows.
他们在使用AI编程工具。
They're using AI coding tools.
我们很多产品经理决定利用AI来制作原型。
A lot of our product managers, what they've decided to do is using AI to make prototypes of things.
所以，产品经理可能不会在完整的生产应用中实现这个功能，但他们不再给我们提交书面文档，而是直接带来一个原型。
So the product manager may not be implementing the thing in the full production app, but rather than coming to us with a written document, they come with a prototype now.
这要好得多，因为它能促进更好的决策。
That's way better because it allows for much better decision making.
如果有人拿着一份书面提案来找我，说‘我要改进西班牙语教学方法’，我很难理解这到底意味着什么；但如果他们直接给我展示一个原型，我能直观地看到它确实能更好地教西班牙语，那我就更容易批准这类想法。
So, if somebody comes to me with a written proposal and says, you know, I'm gonna do a a way to teach Spanish better, it's hard for me to know what that actually means, but if they just show me the prototype and I can see that it really does seem to teach Spanish better, it's much easier to give approval to that type of thing.
所以，这在很大程度上取决于岗位职责。
So, it depends a lot in the role.
你们会给他们一些指导吗？
Do you give them any guidance?
比如，下次别这么做，改用那种方式。
Like, okay, instead of doing this, do that next time.
或者，他们是怎么知道这些事情可以用AI来做的？
Or how do they even find out they can do these things with AI?
我们会在全公司范围内做一些尝试，比如几个月前，我们搞了一天‘人人写代码’活动，不只是工程师，公司里的每个人——包括人力资源、财务团队的人——都必须用AI工具写点东西。
We try to do some things in the whole company to try to, you know, we had, for example, a few months ago, we had a day where everybody in the company had to vibe code something, not just engineers, every single person, people from, you know, HR, people from the finance team, everybody had to vibe code something.
所以，每个人都看到了它的威力。
So, everybody could see the power of it.
我们还有很多关于最佳实践的文档。
We also have a lot of documentation about best practices.
但总的来说，多邻国的员工都很聪明。
But generally, people here in Duolingo are pretty smart.
他们总能发现新的东西。
They're always finding new things.
我认为发生的情况是，不是管理层告诉他们该做什么，而是他们互相告诉彼此该怎么做。
And I think what happens is rather than management telling them what to do, they tell each other what to do.
我们有很多Slack频道。
We have a lot of Slack channels.
其中一个叫做‘最佳AI实践’。
You know, one of them is called Best AI Practices.
于是大家就在那里分享各种想法。
And so, are just saying stuff.
我们还有另一个频道叫AI失败案例，记录了所有那些时候、所有那些事情
We also have another one that's called AI Fails, which is all the times, all the things that
这真是个特别棒的频道。
That's people such great one.
这是一件了不起的事情，极大地赋予了人们力量。
It is an incredible thing, very empowering for people.
他们会觉得，天哪，我做了一个应用，虽然通常都是很小的应用，但毕竟这是我做的应用。
They're like, oh my god, made, you know, usually they're very small apps, but it's like, I made an app.
这家公司内部发生的一件事是，每个人都创建了自己的仪表盘。
One of the things that has happened inside this company is everybody has made their own dashboard.
是为了他们的关键绩效指标之类的吗？
For their KPIs or something?
是的，不管他们追踪的是什么。
Yeah, for whatever it is.
不管他们正在追踪什么。
Whatever it is they're tracking.
我的意思是，我看到一些产品经理用AI工具为每个国家的用户开发了完整的产品功能。
I mean, I see a few product managers that have vibe coded a whole thing with like, our users in every country and what they're doing.
这太令人印象深刻了。
That's super impressive.
你们是通过这种方式来评估AI熟练度的吗？
And is that how you track AI proficiency?
因为现在这已经是绩效考核的一部分了吧？
Because now it's part of performance reviews, right?
多邻国。
Duolingo.
有一段时间，这确实是绩效考核的一部分。
For a while, it was part of performance reviews.
但我们后来决定不再这样做了，我来告诉你为什么。
We decided not to do it, and I'll tell you why.
我给公司发了一封备忘录，说你们绩效考核的一部分将包括AI的使用情况。
I sent a memo to the company that said, you know, part of your performance review is gonna be usage of AI.
我们发现，人们并不确定他们是否真的在这么做，但他们确实会问：你们只是希望我们为了用AI而用AI吗？
And we found that people were I don't know if they were doing that, but they were kinda asking, like, do you just want us to use AI for AI's sake?
最终，我们改变了做法，说：不，听好了，你绩效中最重要的是尽可能做好你的本职工作。
And at the end, we backtracked and we said, no, look, the most important thing in your performance is that you are doing, you know, whatever your job is as well as possible.
很多时候，AI能帮助你实现这一点。
A lot of times AI can help you with that.
但如果它帮不上忙，
But if it can't,
所以
So
我不会强迫你使用AI，我想我们之所以回头，是因为这让人感觉你不是为实际成果负责，而是在强行推广某些情况下并不适用的东西。
I'm not gonna force you to do I think we backtracked from that because it really it felt like rather than being held accountable for the actual outcome, we're trying to just push something that in some cases did not fit.
你有没有具体的例子，比如有人一周内没有用AI完成某项工作，但用了AI之后，产出翻了好几倍？
And do you have a specific example where somebody did something in a week without AI and then with AI, they kind of multiplied the output?
我们现在在Duolingo上教国际象棋。
We now teach chess on Duolingo.
所以，很长一段时间里，我们只教语言。
So, you know, for a long time, we only taught languages.
现在我们还教一些其他内容。
Now we teach a few other things.
国际象棋是我们最近新增的课程。
Chess is the latest course we added.
这门课程由两个人发起，他们俩都不懂国际象棋，也不会编程。
This course got started by two people, neither of whom knew chess, neither of whom knew how to program.
他们基本上是靠直觉编程做出了第一个原型。
They basically vibe coded the first prototype of it.
当然，最终上线应用的版本我们安排了工程师参与，但他们确实已经走得很远了。
Now, the final version that is actually in the app, of course, we put some engineers in there, etcetera, but they really got very far.
在大约六个月的时间里，他们完成了整个国际象棋课程的设计。
In a span of about six months, they created the whole curriculum for chess.
他们完全依靠AI创建了应用程序的原型。
They created a prototype of the app, all entirely with AI.
而且，这些人根本不懂国际象棋。
And again, these people did not know any chess.
那这个主意是谁提出的？
And whose idea was that?
是他们的主意吗？
Was it their idea
就是他们想这么做。
to just It was their idea to do that.
而且，正是他们提出要加入国际象棋的。
They also well, they're the ones who wanted to add chess.
顺便说一下，他们一年前就来找我，说想加入国际象棋。
By the way, they came to me a year earlier to say, we want to add chess.
我当时说，我不想加国际象棋，因为那只是个游戏，而我们是个教育类应用。
I said, I don't want to add chess because it's just a game and we're an education app.
但几个月后，我跟我们国家（危地马拉）的教育部长聊了聊，她说：我们的教育系统，尤其是公立教育系统，已经烂到极点，我甚至在考虑给每个学生发一个棋盘，至少让他们能学到逻辑思维。
But what happened was that a few months later, I talked to the minister of education of my country, I'm from Guatemala, and she said to me, our education system, our public education system in Guatemala is so broken that I'm considering sending every student a chessboard so that at least they'll learn logical thinking.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
当她对我说这些时，我想：哦，天哪。
And when she said that to me, I thought, oh, wow.
好吧。
Okay.
这实际上很有用。
This is actually useful.
关于教育。
Of education.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
所以，这就是我告诉他们的时候，好吧。
So then this is when I told them, okay.
你可以添加国际象棋课程。
You can add the chess course.
但我对他们说，我没有工程师可以提供给你们，所以你们自己去弄吧。
But I said to them, but I don't have any engineers to give you, so go ahead.
他们自己把事情解决了。
And they they figured it out.
六个月。
Six months.
对吧？
Right?
大约六个月。
About six months.
是的。
Yeah.
现在这是你们增长最快的课程吗？
And now it's your fastest growing course?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，到目前为止，我们有七百万日活跃用户在学习国际象棋。
It's I mean, at this point, we have 7,000,000 daily active users that are learning chess.
哇。
Wow.
这太有趣了。
This is fascinating.
你能一步步告诉我他们的过程吗？
Can you tell me step by step what was their process?
所以，如果有人在看，他们可能会想：哇，如果Duolingo能做出这样一个与语言不同的衍生产品，那我想用AI启动一个快速成长的产品，他们需要采取哪五个步骤？
So if somebody's watching and they're like, Wow, if Duolingo is able to do such a spin off, which is kinda different from languages, if I want to start something with AI and build a fast growing product, what are the like five steps they need to take?
这两个家伙，他们做的第一件事可能是学习国际象棋，因为他们根本不会下棋。
These two guys, the first thing they did was probably learn chess, probably, because they didn't know any chess.
这也是他们想加入国际象棋课程的原因之一，因为他们自己也想学下棋。
And that's one of the reasons they wanted to add it because they themselves wanted to learn chess.
但之后，他们开始仔细研究市面上各种学习国际象棋的工具。
But after that, what they did is they really started looking at, you know, kind of the different tools that are out there for learning chess.
他们实际上是在做市场调研，试图了解目前有哪些学习国际象棋的资源。
They're basically doing market research, trying to figure out what's out there for learning chess.
他们发现，市面上现有的产品其实都不怎么样，于是决定开始用‘氛围编程’的方式自己开发。
They found that really what was out there was not all that great and then they decided to start vibe coding something.
公平地说，这两个人确实具备一些技术背景。
To be fair, this person does have some technical knowledge.
他们不是工程师，但懂一些技术知识。
They're not an engineer, but they have some technical knowledge.
于是他们下载了Cursor，最初只是制作国际象棋谜题，后来发现AI生成的谜题质量不高，于是他们决定用一个在线的国际象棋谜题数据库来训练AI，结果效果好了很多。
And so they downloaded Cursor and at first they made just chess puzzles, then they realized that the AI was not very good at making chess puzzles, so then they decided to train it with some there's an online database of a lot of different chess puzzles, so they trained the AI with that and it got a lot better.
之后，他们不断制作更多移动端原型让我试用，直到我告诉他们，产品已经足够好，可以正式上线了。
And then after that, what they started doing was just more and more mobile prototypes for me to play with until I told them that it was kinda good enough to really put it in the app.
然后你们就把这个功能上线了，之后是做了外部推广，还是用户自己慢慢发现的？
And then you put it in the app, and then did you give it an external push, or people just started discovering it and?
将它放入应用后，很快就有许多人来了。
By putting it in the app, quickly a lot of people came.
但国际象棋确实有很大的吸引力。
But chess really has a big draw.
我的意思是，我们还在应用里放了其他课程，但都没这么快增长。
I mean, we put other courses in the app that have not grown as much.
例如，事实证明国际象棋比数学更有趣。
For example, it turns out chess is more fun than math.
所以，有位学生刚听说了你们这个迅速发展起来的国际象棋课程，现在也想开始用AI做点东西。
So someone, a student who just heard about your chess course that was spun out so quickly and they want to start building something with AI today.
你会给他们什么建议？
What advice would you give them?
我能给他们的最大建议就是先开始做。
Well, the biggest advice I can give them is to start.
很多人总在谈论如何开始。
You know, a lot of people talk a lot about starting.
他们总是说，哦，我有个想法，但最重要的是坐下来去做。
They they're like, oh, I have an idea, but biggest thing is just sit down and do it.
你只要去尝试，就会学到很多东西。
You will learn a lot by just trying to do it.
所以这是最重要的事。
So that's the biggest thing.
除此之外，试着去了解一些最佳工具是如何工作的。
Other than that, you know, try to learn how do some of the best tools work.
当然，氛围编程会对你有很大帮助，但不仅仅是氛围编程。
Certainly, vibe coding will help you a lot, But it's not just vibe coding.
我的意思是，试着为它做出初步的设计。
I mean, trying to make, you know, the initial designs for it.
现在你可以用AI工具来制作初始界面和所有内容。
Now you can have AI tools to make the initial screens and everything.
所以充分利用这些工具，努力把东西做出来。
So use it all and try to make try to make the thing.
我的意思是，我还没见过完全不懂编程的人能做出一个不错的应用，但我确实见过一些懂一点编程的人做出了应用。
I mean, I haven't haven't quite yet seen somebody who knows nothing about programming to really make a good app, but I have seen people who know a little bit about programming make
对。
Mhmm.
所以他们能做出应用。
You know, make apps.
所以我建议你还是值得去学习一下程序的基本结构。
So I would tell you it's still worthwhile learning kind of the structure of programs.
这看起来很重要。
That seems important.
即使你可能实际上不需要逐字逐句地编程，只要了解事物的工作原理就够了。
Even even though you may you may not actually need to program, like, word by word, just knowing how things work.
比如，了解服务器和客户端之间的区别。
For example, knowing the difference between the server and the client.
像这些非常基础的东西，我觉得很
Like, just these very basic things, Did think that's
这会给你更多灵感，增加一些非语言类的课程吗？
it give you more ideas to add more courses that are non language related?
是的。
Yeah.
它给了我们很多想法。
It's given us a lot of ideas.
我们目前还没有着手其他内容，但我们有一份很长的清单，想教各种各样的东西。
We are not we are not yet working on other stuff, but we have a long list of things that we, you know, we wanna teach all kinds of things.
我们想教中小学的科学课程。
K-twelve science, we want to teach.
不过，我们目前还没有开始做这个。
Again, we're not yet working on that.
我们想教中小学的科学课程。
We want to teach K-twelve science.
我们想教绘画。
We want to teach how to draw.
有各种各样的想法，但目前我们并没有真正着手这些，因为我们想继续专注于国际象棋、数学、音乐和语言。
There's all kinds of things, but at the moment, we're not really working on them because we want to continue working on chess, math, music, and languages.
明白了。
Got it.
但任何员工都可以自己去开发其中一个课程，展示给你看，也许他们可以
But then any employee can just go and vibe coding one of these courses and show you and maybe they
可以，没错，这样就对了。
can Yeah, that's make it right.
顺便说一下，经常有人来找我，问我下一个会增加什么课程？
To be tell the company, by the way, a lot of times people come to me and they're like, What course are you gonna add next?
我告诉他们的一件事是，我想增加K-12科学课程，后来我们加了数学。
And one of the things I tell them is I wanted to add K through 12 science, and then we added math.
我想增加K-12科学课程，后来我们加了音乐。
I I wanted to add K through 12 science, and then we added music.
我想增加K-12科学课程，后来我们加了国际象棋。
I wanted to add K through 12 science, and then we added chess.
到目前为止，我也想加入K到12年级的科学课程。
At this point, I also wanna add K through 12 science.
但事实上，这里的人们会提出一个非常好的想法，如果这个想法不错而且他们充满热情，我们就会让他们去做。
But it turns out that what people do here is somebody comes up with a really good idea and if it's good and they're passionate about it, we let them do it.
是的，他们会去做。
Yeah, they do it.
让我们回到AI失败的问题上，查德。
Let's go back to the, actually, the AI failure, Chad.
你能想起任何AI在任务中实际失败的例子吗？
Can you recall any examples of AI actually failing in a task?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我的意思是，有很多地方它都失败了。
I mean, there's a lot of things where it's failing.
我告诉你最大的一个例子，我觉得我们现在开始看到一些变化了，但一年前还不是这样。
I'll tell you the biggest one, which I think we're starting to see a difference here, but it wasn't the case a year ago.
如果你去看推特，读一读人们在推特上说的话，两年前我本该解雇我们所有的工程师，因为在推特上，他们都说AI比工程师更擅长编程。
If you were to look at Twitter and just read what people are saying on Twitter, two years ago I should've fired all our engineers Because on Twitter, they're like, AI is better at coding than engineers.
过去两年里，他们在推特上一直这么说。
This is kind of for the last two years, this what they've been saying on Twitter.
这很有趣，因为我来到这里后，并没有看到工程效率有明显提升。
And it was an interesting thing because I would come here and I would not really see a speed up on engineering.
我就想，这中间的差距到底在哪？
And I'm like, well, what's the disconnect by it?
你知道，有这么多人说AI比人类更擅长编程。
You know, there's all these people saying that AI is better at coding than humans.
但现实是，AI目前还远未达到比人类更擅长编程的程度。
And the reality is it's not yet the case that AI is better at coding than humans.
我认为你仍然非常需要工程师，而且我认为在很长一段时间内都会需要他们。
I think you still really need engineers and you're gonna need them for a long time, I think.
但我们已经看到很多情况，当你让AI去编程时，有时它能成功，但另一些时候——我不知道具体比例是多少——它会失败，而一旦失败，就会带来真正的问题。
But we've just seen a lot of cases where, you know, you tell the AI to program something and sometimes it works, but the other, I don't know what fraction of the time it doesn't work, but when it doesn't work, there's a real problem in that.
因为你并不真正知道它做了什么，所以很难调试。
Because you don't really know what it did, it's really hard to debug it.
这就是为什么你很快就能进入顺利的路径。
And that's kind of what has happened that you get into the happy path is really fast.
好的。
Okay.
它成功了。
It worked.
但不顺利的路径导致花费的时间如此之长，以至于你在上面投入的精力比在其他方面节省的时间还多。
But the unhappy path makes it so that it takes so long that you end up spending more effort on that than the time you saved on the other things.
我们已经多次看到这种情况。
So we've seen that quite a bit.
我们还发现，AI无法生成叙事性内容，比如故事。
We've also seen AI not be able to generate things like narrative, like stories.
有时它做得不错，有时却表现不佳，只是编出一些毫无意义的东西。
Sometimes it does a good job, sometimes it doesn't do a great job, and it just comes up with things that don't make any sense.
你知道，这很有趣，因为当你看到演示时，让它编个故事，那些演示看起来总是很棒。
You know, it's interesting because when you see a demo and you ask it to come up with a story, somehow those demos always look amazing.
但当你试图生成100个故事时，你会发现只有大约30个是好的，其余70个则
But then when you try to come up with a 100 stories, you realize that only like 30 are good and the other 70 are
人类仍然需要检查和筛选。
humans still needs to check and select.
是的。
Yeah.
我们所有的内容都需要经过很多步骤来检查、抽样检查，或者做些别的事情，以确保质量足够高。
All our content needs to be there's a lot of steps to try to either check it or spot check it or something to make sure that the quality is high.
那么，如果我们把今天和一年前相比，公司因为AI的使用提高了多少生产力？
So if we compare today and a year ago, how much more productive the company is with AI?
我不知道。
I don't know.
只是在某些局部领域有提升。
It's more in pockets.
我不确定是否有任何大型公司实现了十倍的速度提升
And I don't know if any larger company that has seen like a 10x speed up in
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我觉得初创公司才真正感受到了。
I think startups really see it.
因为当你是一个人团队时，你
Because when you're a one person team, then you
一个人能做很多事情。
work A one person can do a lot of stuff.
对于大公司来说，这更难实现。
With a larger company, it's harder.
事实证明，例如，大多数工程师每天并不会花八个小时写代码。
It just turns out, for example, most engineers don't spend eight hours a day coding.
他们得去开会。
They have to go to meetings.
他们必须如此，因此有一部分工作是根本无法加速的。
They have to so there's a part of it that you just cannot speed up.
然后是他们花在编码上的那部分工作。
Then there's the part that they spend coding.
好吧，也许你可以加快这一部分，但至少目前，你不可能将它加速一千倍。
Okay, maybe you can speed that up, but you cannot speed it up, at least at the moment, you cannot speed it up by a thousand x.
你也许只能让它稍微快一点。
You can just maybe, I don't know, a little faster.
是的。
Yeah.
所以总体来看，我们并没有产出十倍多的功能。
So, overall, we're not seeing, like, we're putting out 10 times as many features.
我们没有。
We're not.
我们在公司各个不同领域看到了一些速度提升。
We're seeing some speed ups here and there in different pockets of the company.
但再说一遍，这正是你所说的。
But again, it's what you said.
单人公司要快得多，但那是因为你不需要与公司其他部分进行大量交互等等。
One person companies are a lot faster, but it's because you don't have to interface with all the other parts of the company, etcetera.
此外，AI在处理现有代码库时不如处理全新代码库那么有效。
Also, AI is not as good with existing code bases rather than with a brand new code base.
我们一直在讨论AI如何改变人们学习和记忆信息的方式，这让我思考了自己在安排日常生活和工作时做出的一个改变。
We've been talking a lot about how AI is changing the way people learn and retain information, and that got me thinking about something I changed in how I organize my own daily life and work.
有人曾经告诉我，如果你不记录下与团队通话中的所有内容，你实际上是在输给其他公司。
Someone told me once, if you're not capturing everything that happens in your calls with your team, you're actually losing to other companies.
你正在失去那些做出的决策。
You're losing decisions that were made.
你正在失去被忽略的上下文，以及你承诺过却忘记的事情。
You're losing context that gets dropped, things you committed to and then you just forgot.
团队同步会议、战略讨论、与投资者的通话，甚至与承包商的简短对话，一旦通话结束，所有内容都会消失。
Team syncs, strategy sessions, call with investors, even a quick conversation with a contractor, it all disappears the moment the call ends.
我不知道你怎么样，但我每天都在开会。
And I don't know about you, but I'm on calls every single day.
有时候我会忘记按录音键。
Sometimes I forget to press record.
有时候我觉得对话不值得录音，但会后我才发现其实我应该录下那次对话。
Sometimes I don't think the conversation is worth recording, but then after the conversation, I realized I had to actually record that.
我的一个朋友告诉我，玛丽娜，你应该开始用Granola。
One of my friends told me, Marina, you should start using Granola.
你会大吃一惊的。
You'll be blown away.
现在我在每次会议中都会用它。
And now I use it on every single call.
现在它是一个用于会议的AI笔记工具，但并不是那种加入你Zoom会议、让所有人都感到不适的机器人。
Now it is an AI notepad for meetings, but it's not a bot that joins your Zoom and makes everyone uncomfortable.
它会在后台录制你电脑的音频，而你则能完全专注于对话中。
It transcribes your computer's audio in the background while you stay completely present in the conversation.
它会自动监听每一次通话，如果是重复性通话，会将它们归类到文件夹中。
It listens to every call automatically, and if it's a recurring call, emerges them by folders.
所以当会议结束时，你已经拥有了整洁有序的笔记，随时可用。
So by the time the meeting ends, you have clean structured notes ready to go.
通话结束后，我会和我的笔记聊天。
And after the call, I chat with my notes.
我会说：好吧，我们刚刚进行了这场对话。
I'm like, okay, we just had this conversation.
你能帮我写一封跟进邮件吗？我要发给我的经理莫妮卡。
Can you create a follow-up email that I'm gonna send to Monica, my manager?
我们要推进这个、这个和那个。
We're gonna proceed with this, this and that.
它会生成邮件，我直接发送即可。
Creates the email and I just send it.
整个过程只需十五秒。
Takes fifteen seconds.
它支持Zoom、Google Meet和Teams。
It works across Zoom, Google Meet, and Teams.
这是我真正无法离开的工具之一。
It's one of those tools I genuinely can't work without anymore.
一旦你试过，我相信你也离不开它。
And I don't think you'll be able to either once you try it.
在本集结束后，立即在你的第一次会议中试试它。
Try it on your very first meeting after this episode.
前往 granola.ai/marina 免费获取三个月的Granola服务，或在结账时输入代码 MARINA。
Head to granola.ai/marina to get three months of granola for free or enter the code MARINA at checkout.
我在描述中留下了链接。
I left a link in the description.
现在，我们继续回到我和路易斯的对话。
And now back to my conversation with Luis.
作为创始人，你呢？
What about you as a founder?
AI 有帮助你做决策或优化某些工作流程吗？
Does AI help you make decisions or any workflows that work for you?
研究方面，当然有。
Research, sure.
以前只要遇到需要研究的问题，比如印度的国际象棋现状之类的，
It used to be the case that whenever I had something that needed to be researched, like, I don't know, what is the chess landscape in India, for example?
我通常得花大量时间自己查，或者请团队帮忙，但现在我只要问问 Gemini 之类的工具，就能得到一个不错的概览。
You know, it used to be the case that I needed to either spend a lot of time myself or get a team of people to help me, whereas now I can get a pretty good idea by just asking Gemini or something like that.
所以，研究方面我现在自己做得更多了。
So, research, I do a lot more by myself.
这对我帮助很大。
That has helped me.
但最终的决策还是由我来做。
But ultimately, the decisions are made by me.
我可不是问电脑：‘你决定吧？’
It's not like I asked the computer, what would you decide?
好的。
Okay.
我还没有。
I haven't
所以你不用它当教练，也没用它来设定自己的关键绩效指标之类的吗？
So you don't use it as a coach or you haven't vibe coded your own KPIs or whatever?
我确实为很多事情做过直觉编码，但我的关键绩效指标确实不是这样，最终的决策我还是自己做。
I've done a bunch of vibe coding for things, but, yeah, certainly my KPIs, but it's not decisions I still make myself.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我在这个播客里采访了很多有趣的人。
I interview a lot of cool people on this podcast.
在过去三周里，我采访了传奇投资者雷德·霍夫曼和比尔·格利。
In the past three weeks, had Reid Hoffman and Bill Gurley, who are legendary investors.
我问了他们一个问题：第一个会被人工智能彻底改变的市场是什么？你应该关注哪个市场？
And I asked them a question, what is the first market that's gonna be completely changed by AI and market you should be looking at?
他们告诉我是语言。
And they told me language.
好的。
Okay.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
这十年来一直是我关注的事情。
You know, it's been my thing for ten years.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
我不明白你说的‘改变’是什么意思。
I don't know what that means, change.
比如，你不需要学习一门语言，因为一切都已经被翻译了。
Like So you don't have to learn a language because everything is translated.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我根本不认同这一点。
I just don't buy that.
如果你看看我们的用户，我们有超过一亿的活跃用户。
If you look at our users, we have more than a 100,000,000 active users.
其中一半的人学习语言是出于爱好。
Half of them are learning as a hobby.
这是一种爱好。
It's a hobby.
无论AI能否做到，这都是一种爱好。
Whether AI can do it or not, it's a hobby.
当然。
Absolutely.
国际象棋是个很好的例子。
Chess is a great example.
你知道，自1997年以来，电脑在国际象棋上的水平就已经超过人类了。
You know, computers have been better at chess than humans since 1997.
如今学习国际象棋的人比1997年多得多。
A lot more people are learning chess today than they were in 1997.
这是一项爱好。
It's a hobby.
所以对我们一半的学习者来说，这是一项爱好，我不觉得电脑能不能做到这一点会有什么影响。
So for half of our learners, it's a hobby, and I don't think whether computers can do it or not, I don't think it'll matter.
另一半人则在学习英语。
The other half are learning English.
我认为，任何说人们不想学语言的人，一定没经历过学英语的艰难。
And I think anybody who tells you that people don't wanna learn a language has not had to learn English.
你提到有50%的人可能在学其他语言，这挺有意思的。
It's interesting how you say, like, 50%, they're probably learning other languages?
爱好。
Hobby.
是的。
Yes.
英语的必要性。
English necessity.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
但世界就是这样。
But that's how it is in the world.
没错。
Yeah.
比如，如果你在学习，我相信这里有一些普遍情况。
Like, if you're learning I'm sure there are I'm generalizing here.
但一般来说，如果你在学法语，那是一种爱好。
But generally, if you're learning French, it's a hobby.
这并不总是对的。
It's not always true.
我确信有些人真的需要搬到法国，但那只是极少数。
I'm sure there are people who actually need to move to France, but it's a small fraction.
世界上大多数学法语的人，其实只是想在去巴黎时显得很酷，能点一份羊角面包。
The majority of people in the world that are learning French will, you know, want to feel cool when they go to Paris so they can order a croissant.
而我们的用户就是这样的人。
And that's our users.
同样，一个一生都生活在美國的人，从未被迫学英语，因为那是他们的母语，等等，可能会说：语言是没必要的，等等。
And again, somebody who's lived their entire life in The US has, you know, has never had to learn English because that's their native language, etcetera, will say something like, well, languages are unnecessary, etcetera.
但那些不得不学英语的人，情况就完全不同了。
But somebody who's had to learn English, it's a different thing.
你只是需要学英语，也许你想搬到一个英语国家，也许你需要接受教育，比如去大学。
You It just need to learn English and you may want to move to an English speaking country, You may need to do an educational like, you may need to go to a university.
没有人会允许你带着一部能翻译教授所说一切的手机去上大学。
Nobody's gonna be allowing you to go to a university with, a a phone that translates everything the professor says.
这根本不可能，对吧。
Like, that's just not Yeah.
所以我对这一点并不特别担心。
So I I'm just not particularly worried about that.
市场上有一部分人吗？
Is there a fraction of the market?
我在想翻译人员，比如。
So I'm thinking about translators, for example.
有人花四年时间学习这个。
Somebody spends like four years learning that.
你会对这些人说什么？
What would you say to those people?
这要看具体情况。
Depends on what it is.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
市场上有一部分领域可能会发生相当大的变化。
There are fractions of the market that are probably going to change quite a bit.
此外，就需求而言，我同意有些人原本可能只想学一点语言，比如只是为了去德国待两天，但现在他们可能就不这么做了，因为可以直接使用翻译工具。但当你看多邻国的用户时，这其实只占我们用户的极少数。
Also, in terms of the demand, I agree that some people may have wanted to learn a little bit of a language if they were gonna, you know, just visit Germany for two days, that maybe now they're just not gonna do that because they can just but at at least when you look at Duolingo's users, that's a very small minority of our users.
大多数用户其实是出于爱好或学习英语。
The majority really are Hobby or English.
我只是不
I'm just not
所以，你其实很担心。
So no, you're worried.
我不担心。
I'm not.
关于语言翻译，实时翻译技术已经非常成熟了，这并不完全是大语言模型的功劳。
The other thing about language translation is that simultaneous language translation has been really good for if this is not an LLM thing.
大语言模型确实擅长这个，但谷歌翻译十年前还没用大语言模型，就已经非常出色了。
Like, LLMs are good at it too, but Google Translate did not use LLMs, and it was really good ten years ago.
所以，我只是想说，我们看到学习语言的需求实际上是上升了，而不是下降。
So I I just, you know, we've seen the demand to learn a language actually go up as opposed to go down.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，这并不是我们内部担心的事情。
So this is not something that we internally are worried about.
好的。
Okay.
但我理解人们会这么说。
But I understand people say that.
是的。
Yeah.
我还在想，比如如果你戴的是智能眼镜，它们能自动为你翻译一切。
I'm also thinking, like, if you have glasses, for example, that are smart and they translate everything for you automatically.
是的。
Yeah.
我没见过耳机有这种应用。
I haven't seen the case with headphones.
我觉得人们其实并不会用AirPods来做翻译。
I don't think people really use the the AirPods to translate.
不会。
No.
我在想，也许能翻译科学内容的是眼镜。
I'm thinking maybe it's glasses that translate the science.
我不确定。
I don't know.
这是因为我们2015年刚到硅谷时，正在推广我们的公司LanguageTrip，它提供语言旅行和语言课程。
It's because when we came to Silicon Valley, I think 2015, we were pitching our company, LanguageTrip, that does, like, language travel, language courses.
而且据我所知，当时大约50%的美国投资人说，这不是个市场。
And I think 50%, to your note, American investors were like, oh, this is not a market.
听我说，我有
Look, I got
哦，这下可有好戏看了。
Oh, this is gonna go down.
我们遇到过这个问题，整个多邻国公司都位于美国。
We've had this problem and that the entirety of the company of Duolingo, we are a company based in The United States.
当你最初向这里的投资者推介多邻国时，我记得是很多年前了，最常见的反馈是：根本没人想学语言。
You know, when we first pitched Duolingo to investors here, you know, I don't know, however many years ago, the most common thing is, like, nobody really wants to learn a language.
但数学就不一样了。
Math, though.
人们想学数学。
People wanna learn math.
我想投资者之所以这么认为，是因为他们自己数学好，也想学数学，但现实是，世界上学习语言的人比学习数学的人多得多。
And that's, you know, I'm sure investors think that because they are good at math and they wanted to learn math, but the reality is there are more people learning languages in the world than there are people learning math.
当世界上最聪明的人都告诉你不行时，你当时是怎么想的？
What was your mindset when the smartest people in the world tell you that?
你心里想：我才不在乎。
You're like, I don't care.
我只是
I just
我的意思是，我是在危地马拉长大的。
Well, I mean, you know, I grew up in Guatemala.
我亲眼见过学英语是什么样子。
I could see what it was to have to learn English.
你看。
Look.
学英语是一件非常重要的事。
It is a huge thing to learn English.
是的。
Yeah.
它能改变人们的生活。
It changes people's lives.
我知道。
I know.
我也是这种情况。
That's that's my my case as well.
它能改变人们的生活。
It changes people's lives.
当然。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
你还有另一个担忧吗？就是你有个应用。
Do you have another worry that so you have an app.
对吧？
Right?
但现在我们处于任何人都可以自己动手编程的时代。
But now we're in the era when anyone can vibe coding up for themselves.
如果我去像Quad这样的地方，说我正在学英语，问你能帮我把学习体验游戏化吗？为我创建一个个性化应用，了解我的兴趣、爱好等等。
What if I go to like, I'm learning English, I go to Quad and ask, can you gamify my experience, create me an app that's personalized to me, you know, my interests, you know, my hobbies.
你担心这个吗？
Do you worry about that?
有点，但也不是真的担心。
A little bit, but not really.
我的意思是，这挺有意思的。
I mean, it's funny.
在公司内部，我们从不谈论这个。
Inside the company, we never talk about this.
你知道，我们看到推特上有人讨论，或者投资者在讨论，但我们内部根本不谈这个。
This is, you know, we see, again, we see Twitter talking about that or investors talking about that, but we internally don't talk about that.
听我说，最终你可以让AI帮你做一个应用，但做出一个真正优秀的产品并不容易。
Look, ultimately, I think you can ask AI to make you an app, but making a really good app is not that easy.
你知道，比如我们拥有数亿人学习语言的数据。
You know, ultimately, we, for example, have data from hundreds of millions of people about how they learn a language.
每天，Duolingo上都有超过十亿道练习被完成，我们利用这些数据来更好地教你。
Every single day, more than a billion exercises are answered on Duolingo and we use that data to teach you better.
所以我们掌握了大量关于如何让你保持动力的数据。
And so we just have a lot of data on how to keep you motivated.
你知道，世界上可能有两三千个语言学习应用。
You know, there's probably two, three thousand language learning apps in the world.
它们一直都在，而现在有了 vibe coding，可能会有两万而不是两三千个。
They've been there, and now with vibe coding, now there'll be probably 20,000 rather than two, three thousand.
但目前，我们并不特别担心。
But at the moment, we're just not particularly concerned.
是的。
Mhmm.
你知道，可能会发生一些事情。
You know, something may happen.
有什么令人担忧的吗？
Is there anything concerning?
因为我问这个问题，是因为我跟人交流时，他们都说，这可能会受到限制。
Because I'm asking a question about it, because I talk to people, and they're like, oh, this is gonna be limited.
这就要结束了。
This is gonna be we're done.
你却觉得没关系。
And you're like, it's fine.
不。
No.
我不会说一切都很好。
Wouldn't say that it's like all is fine.
我觉得很多事情都会改变。
I do think a lot of things are gonna change.
你认为会有什么变化？
What do you think is gonna change?
你在为什么做准备？
What are you preparing for?
我认为用户的期望会发生变化，我们必须走在前面。
I think that user expectations are going to change, and I think we have to stay ahead of it.
一个很好的例子是，我们应用里有一个功能是与AI进行对话练习。
So a good example is, you know, one of the things we have in the app is conversation practice with AI.
当我们最初推出这个功能时，它的成本对我们来说很高，所以我们把它放在了最昂贵的套餐后面。
When we first put that out there, the cost of it was high for us, so we put it behind the most expensive tier.
因此，你需要支付很高的费用才能获得对话练习功能。
So you have to pay a lot of prescription to get the conversation practice.
目前，这项功能的成本已经大幅下降，我们打算将其提供给更便宜的套餐，最终可能还会免费提供。
At the moment, the cost of that has come down enough that we're gonna start giving it to much cheaper tiers, and we are probably gonna eventually give it away for free.
是的。
Mhmm.
我们这样做是因为我相信用户会开始期待这样的服务。
We're doing that because I believe that customers are gonna start expecting that.
我觉得会有一些应用开始免费提供这类功能，如果我们现在不这么做，几年后就会被迫这么做。
Like, I think there will be apps that start doing this for free, and if we don't do it now, we'll be forced to do it in a few years.
所以我们正在做这些事情来为未来做准备，因为我再次强调，我认为我们必须保持领先。
So that's the type of stuff we're doing to prepare for this because I I again, I think we just need to stay ahead.
是的
Yeah.
所以用户会期待更多
So users will expect more
从哪里？
from Right?
想想用户会期待更多。
Think users will expect more.
我觉得用户会期待应用程序变得更加智能，这本来就应该如此。
I think I think users will expect the apps to be a lot more intelligent, which they should.
是的
Yeah.
我们正经历一次平台转型。
We're undergoing kind of a platform shift here.
在平台转型期间，之前获胜的公司可能继续获胜，也可能不再获胜。
And what ends up happening in platform shifts is that the companies who were the winner before the platform shift may or may not remain the winner after that.
所以我希望我们能做到这一点。
So I hope that we can do that.
说到人工智能和劳动力，我刚和加里·维纳查克聊过，我非常认同他说的话。
Also talking about AI and workforce, I just talked to Gary Vaynerchuk, and I really like what he said.
有很多传言说，人们和新闻媒体称大公司正在裁员，理由是人工智能。
Like, there are a lot of rumors of people and news people firing, like, the large companies firing people, and they say it's AI.
然后加里说了一番话让我印象深刻，他说：如果我裁掉100个人，而我的竞争对手把他们聘走了，他们的产出却提升了十倍。
Then Gary said something that struck me because he said, like, if I fire a 100 people, my competitor hires them, and they still 10x their output.
那我裁掉他们就太蠢了。
Like, I'm dumb for firing them.
是的。
Yeah.
你怎么看这个问题？
How do you think about that?
我们这里从未裁员过。
We have never laid anybody off here.
尽管互联网可能这么认为，我们从未进行过裁员。
We have never done a layoff despite what the Internet may think.
互联网可能误解了你们的情况。
The Internet may think that misunderstood yours.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我们这里从未进行过裁员。
We've never done a layoff here.
我认为继续招聘人员很重要，因为现在在我看来，单个员工的生产力比以往高多了。
I think that it is important to continue hiring people because now, you know, the way I see it is a single employee is just way more productive now than they used to be.
所以，我通过雇佣更多员工获得了更好的投资回报。
So, you know, I get better return on investment by having another employee.
这就是我的看法。
That that's how I see it.
我的意思是，我当然不能谈论具体公司的细节，但我的感觉是，在至少某些情况下，AI只是一个简单的
I mean, my sense, I, of course, cannot speak about the very specific companies, but I my sense is that at least in some of the cases, AI is just an easy
公关借口。
PR reason.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，通常发生的情况是你招聘过度了。
I mean, usually what happens is you overhire.
是的。
Yeah.
当你招聘过度时，你会想，哦，好吧。
When you overhire, you're like, oh, okay.
因为有了AI，我们就这么做了。
Because of AI, we're gonna do that.
至少在多邻国，我们公司是这样运营的，我惊讶于居然还有公司这么做，因为我看不到任何理由。
I don't at least at Duolingo, the way we run the company, I am surprised that there are companies doing that because I see no reason.
是的。
Yeah.
我刚去过达沃斯，和一位发布就业报告的人聊了聊。
I talked I was just at Davos, and I was talking to somebody who releases their jobs report.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所有的裁员都是结构性的，就像在疫情期间招太多人了，所以其实并不是
All the layoffs are structural, like over hired during COVID, so it's not really
许多公司在疫情期间招了太多人。
A lot of companies over hired during COVID.
我明白这一点。
I understand that.
如果你招了太多人，那很可能就不需要这些人了。
And then, you know, if you over hired, you probably don't need these people.
但你知道，把责任推给人工智能是个现成的替罪羊。
But, you know, blaming AI is an is an easy scapegoat.
确实是。
It is.
确实是。
It is.
他刚才说的话最让我担心。
What he just said actually worries me the most.
大家都在谈论人工智能取代工作、大公司裁员。
Everyone's talking about, like, AI replacing jobs and big companies firing people.
但这里的情况并不是这样，对吧？
This is not what's happening here, right?
他实际上在招聘人，但只招懂人工智能的人。
He's actually hiring people, but he's hiring those who know AI.
我这边也是，我们刚在招聘一名社交媒体经理，面试时我问的问题是：你打算如何自动化这个流程？
Same for me, where we're just hiring a social media manager and the questions I was asking them during the interview, how are going to automate this?
你会如何在这一过程中使用人工智能？
How are you going to use AI in this process?
创始人正在寻找那些在工作中使用AI的人。
Founders are looking for people who utilize AI in their work.
这实际上正是我的通讯所关注的内容。
And this is actually what my newsletter is about.
它叫《未来无忧》。
It's called Future Proof.
每周我都分享我们关于AI的所学所获。
And every week I share what we learned with AI.
比如，我的公关人员仅凭直观编码就搭建了整个网站，所有播客的文本都包含在内。
Like my PR person just vibe coded the whole website with all the transcripts from this podcast.
我们会在通讯中分享这类事情。
And we share things like that in the newsletter.
所以，首先，请订阅这个频道。
So first of all, subscribe to this channel.
其次，请订阅我们的通讯。
And second, subscribe to the newsletter.
我们能谈谈股价吗？
Can we talk about the stock price?
因为我在准备这次对话时，看到了股价下跌了82%。
Because when I was preparing for this, I saw the 82% collapse of the stock.
但我真正想聊的是，你曾向股东解释过这一点，你能跟我讲讲，作为创始人，当你做出让用户开心却让投资者不开心的决定时，你的内心想法是怎样的吗？
But what I really want to talk about, because you explained that to your shareholders, can you walk me through your mindset as a founder when you make such decisions who make your users happy, but they don't make your investors happy?
嗯，这个决定是AI做的，我开玩笑的。
Well, the decision was made by AI, so I'm kidding.
这是个笑话。
That is a joke.
事情并不是这样的。
That is not what happened.
是我做出的这个决定。
I made that decision.
你看啊。
Well, look.
我们有意识地改变了公司的运营方式。
We made a conscious shift in how we run the company.
我做出了有意识的转变，而且整个高管团队都支持我。
I made a conscious shift and certainly the executive team was behind me.
但到了某个阶段，你知道，如果你看过去五年，我们的增长非常大。
But we got to a point where, you know, if you look at over the last five years, we've grown a lot.
我们在2021年成为了一家上市公司。
We became a public company in 2021.
自那以后，我们的活跃用户增长了五倍以上。
We have grown our user base by more, like our active users by more than five X since then.
所以我们增长了很多。
So we've grown a lot.
我们的收入也增长了类似的幅度，等等。
We've also grown our revenue by a similar amount, etcetera.
我们增长了很多，但发生了两件事。
We've grown a lot, but two things happened.
一是，在2025年整个期间，我们虽然仍在增长，但增速比过去几年慢了不少。
One is that throughout 2025, we we've been still growing, but we were growing slower than we were growing in previous years.
所以，这是发生的第一件事。
So that's one thing that happened.
比如，我们的用户基数增长比以往几年更缓慢了。
Like, our user base was growing slower than in previous years.
第二件事是，由于人工智能的发展，我坚信教育领域将发生巨大变化，而我们正是教育领域的重要参与者。
The second thing that happened is because of AI, I really do believe that education is going to change quite a bit, and we are a really, you know, important player in the education category.
我希望自己能处于一个引领这场AI变革的位置上。
And I wanna be in in a situation where we're gonna lead some of that change through AI.
因此，一方面我希望引领这场AI变革，另一方面我们的用户增长放缓，这让我意识到我们必须做一件重要的事——改变我们的运营方式，以便继续尽可能多地获取用户。
So the combination of I wanna lead through that change in AI and our user growth slowing down told me we need to do something important, change how we operate so that we continue grabbing as many users as possible.
但这会带来成本，即我们不会再像以前那样充分地从用户群体中获利，而投资者并不喜欢这样。
Now that comes with a cost, which is we are not going to be monetizing our user base as much as we were before, and investors don't love that.
但我们做出这个决定时就知道了，我们与内部团队，包括财务团队进行了充分沟通，所有人都同意：这会导致我们的股价下跌。
But we knew, you know, when we made this decision, we talked to, of course, all internally, our finance team, everybody agreed, this is going to decrease our stock price.
是的
Yeah.
你有预料到这个数字，比如80到
Did you expect that number, like 80 to
一样吗？
the same?
说实话，我不太确定该期待什么，但我明白这会是一个很大的数字。
I didn't know exactly what to expect, honestly, but I knew that it was going to be a lot.
是的
Yeah.
所以，我知道这一点，但我们还是有意识地做出了这个决定，因为我们认为，如果我们继续按原来的方式运营，也许还能继续缓慢增长，但迟早会遇到瓶颈。
So, knew that, but we made the decision consciously because we think that if we continued operating the way we were operating, you know, we probably could have continued growing a little bit, etcetera, but at some point it was going to be capped.
而我认为，如果我们真正努力扩大用户基数，从长远来看，我们会成为一个大得多的公司。
Whereas I think if we really try to get a much larger user base, we're gonna be a much larger company in the long term.
而且关键是，我是在经营这家公司，我的意思是，我希望这是我的最后一份工作，是我最后要做的一件事，而我还有许多精力可以投入。
And the thing is, I'm operating this company, I mean, I'm hoping that this is my last job and this is the last thing that I do, and I have many more years of energy left.
你从未后悔过这个决定吗？
And you never regretted the decision?
哦，没有。
Oh, no.
没有。
No.
这太棒了。
That is amazing.
因为作为创始人，再次听到市场对你的决定的反应，他们喜欢这个决定。
Because as a founder, like, again, hearing from the market what they think about your decision is They like it.
这很难。
It's tough.
哇。
Wow.
我知道。
I know.
我同意。
I agree.
我同意。
I I agree.
听好了。
Look.
这并不意味着它不艰难。
It's not that it hasn't been tough.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，我不后悔这个决定，因为我相信这是正确的决定，但你知道，确实挺难的。
I mean, I I don't regret the decision because I believe that it is the right decision, but it it's you know, it yeah.
这真的很艰难。
It's been tough.
我依然非常坚信这是正确的决定。
I I really still I'm very convinced this is the right decision.
你觉得，因为你是一家上市公司的创始人，
Do you feel like because you're a founder of a publicly traded company.
你会不会以股价为依据来辩护或做决策？
Does you would defend and use the stock price?
以前会。
It used to.
是的。
Yeah.
但当我们刚上市时，确实会。
But when we first went public, it used to.
我学会了不再每天查看，至少不再每天看。
I learned to stop looking, like, at least every day.
我的意思不是我不了解大概情况，而是我不每天都去看。
I mean, it's not that I don't it's not that I don't know the the ballpark, but I don't look every day.
以前确实是这样。
It used to be the case.
头一年左右，股价涨一美元时，
The first the first year or so, it'd be like, it went up by a dollar.
就会跌一美元。
It went down by a dollar.
现在你已经习惯了？
Now Like, you're used to it?
因为作为内容创作者，我的自我价值取决于我上一个视频的表现，这不对，对我的心理健康不好。
Because I'm as a creator, my self worth depends on how my last video is performing, which is not right, which is not good for my mental health.
我正在学习不去看它。
I'm learning how to not look at it.
我告诉你吧，
I will tell you this.
我也有同样的情况，但不是针对我们的股价。
The same is true for me, but not with our stock price.
而是针对日活跃用户数。
It's with daily active users.
哦，所以你们还是和以前一样。
Oh, so you still have the same for us
我只是想提醒一下，现在关注的是日活跃用户，而且它们一直在增长。
just I just to remember moved that it to daily active users, so every But they've been growing.
每天早上没错，它们都在增长，但每天早上，你知道吗，前一天的日活跃用户报告都会在早上5点准时出来。
Every morning yes, it's growing and everything, but every morning, I, you know, our daily active user report for the previous day comes at 5AM exactly.
我起床非常早。
I am I wake up very early.
每天早上5点01分，我的心情就被定下来了。
Every morning at 05:01AM, my mood gets set.
你不觉得你应该自己调整一下吗？
Do It's not you think you should adjust it personally?
是的，从心理上说不太好，但相比股价，我还是更喜欢这个。
Yeah, not good mentally, but hey, I prefer this than the stock price, though.
至少这个更有道理。
This makes more sense, at least.
这是你可以控制的事情。
This is something you can control.
这是我可以控制的事情，而且它真正反映了这家公司的健康状况。
This is something I can control and it's an actual measure of the health of this company.
股价在某种程度上，长期来看，确实是衡量这家公司健康状况的一个好指标。
The stock price, some of it is, you know, over the long term, it is a good measure of the health of this company.
但在日常层面，你知道，以前有些日子股价下跌是因为油价变化之类的因素。
But on a day to day basis, you know, we used to there used to be days that the stock price went down because, like, oil prices changed.
我就想，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我怎么能理解这和我有什么关系呢？
I can How is that related to me?
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
还有其他心理技巧吗？
Any other mental hacks?
因为我又在和你聊天了。
Because I'm I'm talking to you again.
你其实并不担心人工智能。
You're not really worried about AI.
你学会了不让股价控制你的情绪。
You learned how to make stock price not control your mood.
在这些年作为创始人期间，你有没有发展出什么心理生活技巧？
Do you have any mental life hacks that you developed as a founder during these years?
什么对你有帮助？
What helps you?
你怎么看？
What do you think?
当事情变糟时，你会怎么做？
What do you do when something goes bad?
你会去散步来激发灵感吗？
Do you go on walks to create ideas?
我的意思是，别误会。
I mean, don't get me wrong.
当事情变糟时，我知道，它会影响我。
When something goes bad, I, you know, it gets to me.
它确实会影响我。
It definitely gets to me.
我会努力从长远角度思考。
I try to really think about the long term.
对我帮助最大的一件事，就是认真思考这一点。
One of the things that has helped me the most is really thinking about this.
这不仅仅关乎公司，而是普遍适用的，当然，这也不是我发明的。
This is not just about the company, this is in general, and of course I didn't invent this.
很多人都这么说。
This is a lot of people say this.
想想任何事情，六个月后还会重要吗？
Thinking about anything, will this matter in six months?
绝大多数事情在六个月后都不会重要。
The vast majority of things will not matter in six months.
绝大多数事情。
The vast majority of things.
所以有时候我会非常沮丧，然后问自己：六个月后这件事还会重要吗？
So sometimes I get really upset and I think about it, will this matter in six months?
有些事情会重要，但绝大多数事情在六个月后都不会重要。
Some things will, but the vast majority of things will not matter in six months.
这让我感觉好多了，因为我想，好吧，我其实没必要生气，因为这件事终究会消散。
And that makes me feel a lot better because I think, okay, I'm upset for no reason because this is What gonna fizzle
那其他事情呢，比如营销或内容？
about other things like marketing or content?
你觉得这对创始人来说重要吗？
Do you think it matters for a founder?
这取决于你做的是哪种类型的公司。
Depending on what type of company you're doing.
如果你做的是消费类公司，营销肯定会很重要。
Certainly, if you're doing a consumer company, marketing is gonna end up mattering.
最重要的事情之一。
One of the most important things.
它会变得非常重要。
It's gonna end up mattering a lot.
我的意思是，我非常喜欢我们的营销团队。
I mean, I love our marketing team.
他们非常出色。
They are excellent.
多年来，他们做了许多极具创意的事情，帮助我们实现了快速增长。
They've done some really creative things over the years and have helped us grow a lot.
我不了解什么捷径。
I don't know of any hacks.
我的意思是，最终你得想办法让你的产品为人所知。
I mean, ultimately, you need to figure out how to get the word out for your product.
我要说的是，我见过很多人试图用好的营销来掩盖糟糕的产品，但这种做法只能带你走这么远。
I will say, I have seen many people try to cover a bad product with good marketing and that can only get you so far.
现实是，如果你想真正成功，你的产品必须优秀。
The reality is if you want to really succeed, your product has to be good.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为产品好但营销差并不理想，但产品差而营销好更糟糕。
I think good product, bad marketing is not very good, but bad product, good marketing is worse.
你每周会专门留出时间来体验新的AI工具吗？还是只是偶然发现？我不知道。
Do you have time set for yourself every week when you play with the new AI tools or you just discover No, on the don't know if
我确实为自己安排了这样的时间。
I have time that I've set for myself like that.
但我的意思是，基本上我会跟一些员工交流，了解公司里谁走在前沿，然后跟他们聊，他们就会告诉我：‘你应该试试那个。’
But I mean, basically what happens is I talk to some of the employees, I know who in the company is at the forefront, and I talk to them and then they tell me, Oh, you should try that.
你应该试试那个。
You should try that.
然后我就去试试。
And then I go, you know, I try it.
对于在公司工作、想听一位正在使用AI的创始人建议的人，你会对他们说什么？
For someone who's employed at a company and they want to hear advice from a founder whose company's using AI, what would you say to them?
他们该如何在工作中开始实施AI？
How do they start implementing AI in their job?
这 again，很大程度上取决于他们的工作内容。
Again, it depends a lot on their job.
不同的工作有不同的工具。
A lot of different tools for a lot of different things.
找到适合你工作的工具并不难，然后试着使用它，看看能否用它自动化你工作中的某些部分。
It's not that hard to find the right tool for your job, and then try to use it and see if you can automate parts of your job with it.
我的意思是，我们很多员工都已经自动化了他们工作的一部分，不是全部，但至少是一部分。
I mean, a lot of our employees have automated parts of their job, not the whole thing, but parts of their job.
我喜欢他们能自己主动这么做。
I like that they're doing this by themselves.
这实际上反映了你们招聘方式的很多特点。
That actually says a lot about the way you hire.
是的。
Yeah.
人们都在自己主动做这些事。
People are doing this by themselves.
现在你们面试时，会问一些关于……的问题吗？
And when you're doing interviews now, are you asking about like
我们确实会问。
We do ask.
我们希望来这里的人对这件事持开放态度。
We want people here is to be open to it.
我的意思是，我们确实能看到那些更愿意使用AI的人， versus 那些不太愿意的人，我们其实想要的是更开放的人。
I mean, we really are you know, you do see the people who are just a lot more open to using AI versus the people who are like, We want people who are more open.
我的意思是，有人说了这句话，我基本上是认同的。
I mean, that's a good thing that somebody said that I pretty much believe.
AI不会夺走你的工作。
AI is not gonna take your job.
使用AI的人会夺走你的工作。
Somebody using AI is gonna take your job.
我相信这在很大程度上是正确的。
And I believe that is mostly true.
效率能提高十倍吗？
Is 10x more productive?
这要高效得多。
This is way more productive.
是的。
Yeah.
你相信十年后我们的公司里会有数百万个AI代理吗？
Do you believe that in ten years we'll have millions of AI agents in our companies?
很可能。
Probably.
我的意思是，尤其是过去几年我学到的是，由于AI的存在，预测未来变得困难多了。
I mean, what I've learned in the last, especially the last few years, is that predicting the future has gotten much harder because of AI.
如果你十年前问我，我多多少少还能告诉你接下来一年或未来三年会是什么样子。
If you talked to me ten years ago, I I sort of could have told you what the next year was gonna look like or what the next three years were gonna look like.
我们大概会推出一款新的iPhone。
It's probably we're gonna have a new version of the iPhone.
它会有一个更好的屏幕。
It's gonna have a better screen.
就像它只是没那么……是的。
It's like it it was just not that Yeah.
很难说，但有点无聊。
Hard to It was kinda boring.
当时预测起来并不难。
It was not that hard to predict.
而现在，我非常不擅长预测会发生什么。
Whereas now, I'm very bad at predicting what's gonna happen.
但你不紧张吗？
But you're not nervous?
我确实感到紧张，但不是针对近期，也不一定针对这家公司，而是因为我相信某种转变即将发生，而我紧张的是我根本不知道那会是什么。
I am nervous not for the immediate term and not necessarily for this company, but I am nervous about I do believe that some shift is going to happen and I'm nervous in that I just don't know what that's gonna be.
我的意思是，如果你听不同的创始人说话，每个人都在告诉你一些对自己有利的事情。
I mean, there's if you listen to different founders, everybody's telling you things that are pretty self serving.
比如，如果你在一家为律师开发AI的公司工作，他们会告诉你律师将会消失。
Like, you know, if if you work in a company that makes AI for lawyers, they'll tell you lawyers are gonna disappear.
每个人都说这些对自己有利的话。
Like everybody's saying all these self serving things.
我不知道具体会是什么，但我确实认为某些事情将会改变，而我感到紧张，因为我根本不知道那会是什么。
I don't know what they are, but I do think something's going to change and I'm nervous because I don't know what that is.
没人知道。
Nobody knows.
知道。
Does.
顺其自然。
Go with the flow.
没人知道。
Nobody does.
我认为你能做的最好的事情就是尽可能快地适应。
And I think the best thing you can do is try to adapt as fast as possible.
顺便说一下，我很庆幸现在不用选大学专业了，因为我根本不知道该选什么。
And by the way, I am glad that I'm not having to choose a college career right now because I have no idea what I would choose.
是的。
Yeah.
现在更难了。
It's even tougher now.
是的。
Yeah.
完全不知道我会选什么。
Have no idea what I would choose.
我给你来个快问快答。
I have a blitz for you.
所以我会说出五个职业，你来预测一下，你觉得怎么样。
So I'm gonna name five professions and you're gonna make some predictions, what you think.
天啊，预测啊。
Oh man, predictions.
我最不擅长这个了。
I'm very bad at that.
但就凭你的直觉吧。
But like what your gut tells you.
五年内消失、十年内消失，还是不会有任何变化。
Gone in five years, gone in ten years, or not going anywhere.
社交媒体经理。
Uztray, Social media manager.
你是说为公司吗？
You mean for like a company?
是的。
Yeah.
比如编写脚本和
Like coming up with scripts and
我觉得这个不会消失。
I don't think that's going anywhere.
这就是我的想法。
That's what I think.
我不觉得。
I don't.
翻译员？
Translator?
我认为'会消失'这个说法太绝对了，因为我觉得在某些情况下，我们仍然需要人工翻译，但这种情况会越来越少。
I think there will be gone is a hard term because I think there will still be cases where we're going to want real human translation, but there'll be fewer and fewer.
但我确实认为，在某些特定情况下，我们还是会需要它。
But I do think that for certain situations, we're gonna want that.
比如一种高端的、顶级的服务。
Like a premium, premium service.
它会变成非常高端的服务。
It's gonna turn into very premium.
是的。
Yeah.
但对于大多数日常用途来说，是的，它会逐渐消失。
But for most, you know, everyday uses, yeah, it's gonna go away.
好的。
Okay.
老师？
Teacher?
哦，不会消失的。
Oh, not going away.
意思是，你认为我们会拥有更多的语言教师吗？
Mean, look Are we gonna have more language teachers, you think?
教师承担着很多功能，我无法想象他们会消失。
Teachers serve a lot of things and I cannot imagine they're gonna go away.
关于这一点，我有很多想法。
So I have a lot of thoughts about this.
我的意思是，我以前是老师，曾经是教授。
I mean, I'm a former teacher, used to be a professor.
我认为人工智能在教授某些内容方面会非常出色，比如提供大量重复练习，甚至可能根据你的学习情况进行调整，但最终，教师擅长将知识置于上下文中。
I think AI is going to be great at teaching certain parts, certainly giving you a lot of repetition, maybe even adapting to what you learn, but ultimately, teachers are great at putting things into context.
他们也非常擅长激发人们去做某件事。
They're also really great at making people wanna do something.
他们非常有感染力。
They're very inspiring.
我小时候，很想成为像我的老师那样的人。
When I was growing up, I wanted to be like my teachers.
但要像AI那样，确实有点难。
And it's kinda hard to wanna be like an AI.
我是说，我并不真的想成为AI，但老师真的很鼓舞人心。
Like, I don't I don't really wanna be like an AI, but a teacher, they're very inspiring.
他们能把事情放在上下文中理解。
They're they put into things into context.
我的意思是，目前我非常确定，如果你有一个特别优秀的老师，那总比没有好老师强。
Mean, at the moment, I'm pretty certain that if you have a really great teacher that is better than not having a really than not having a teacher.
当然，不是所有老师都同样优秀，等等等等。
Again, not all teachers are equally good, etcetera, etcetera.
但顺便说一句，如今的电脑在教学方面还赶不上特别优秀的老师。
But by the way, today, computers are not as good at teaching as a really great teacher.
这一点还没有实现。
That has not yet happened.
发生了。
Happened.
我认为在某些方面，AI可能会逐渐变得差不多好，但我相信有老师总比没有好。
I think it may start getting to a point where in certain aspects they're about as good, but I think having a teacher will always be better than not.
我同意。
I agree.
我也这么认为。
That's what I think.
所以我不认为这种情况会改变。
So I don't believe that it's going anywhere.
我们会用AI学习，做一些事情，但仍然需要有人——一个真人——来回应我们。
We're gonna learn with AI, like do some stuff, but we still need someone, a human, to reply to.
这就是我的想法。
This is what I think.
这就是我的想法。
This is what I think.
而且，要让人保持动力也非常困难，而老师有办法激励人们去做某些事情。
It's also it's incredibly hard to keep people motivated, and teachers have ways to get people motivated to do certain things.
而且，他们会注意到一些事情，比如，那个学生感觉被冷落了。
And just, you know, they start noticing things like, oh, that student feels left out.
我会为此做点什么。
I'm gonna do something about it.
是的。
Yeah.
用人工智能来做这件事相当困难。
This is pretty hard to do with AI.
我实在无法想象这种情况会消失。
I I just can't imagine this is gonna go away.
有道理。
Makes sense.
搞错。
To be wrong.
战略家。
Strategist.
我不知道你有没有用过AI做战略规划，但对我而言
I don't know if you tried AI for strategy, but for me
很好吗？
It's good?
非常好。
So good.
有时候它能注意到一些我根本想不到的事情。
Sometimes it notices things I wouldn't even think about.
比如，它指出你并没有为你的播客关注地理因素。
Like, it was like you were not working on geo for your podcast.
我心想：糟了。
I'm like, oh, shoot.
是的。
Yes.
我不是。
I am not.
我最近没有出现在任何搜索结果中。
I recently appearing in any searches.
我最近让Slack的机器人查看了我所有的对话。
I recently asked the Slack has a Slack bot and sees all my conversations.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我让它分析我的改进空间，结果非常好。
And I asked it to give me what are my areas for improvement, and it was excellent.
这是个非常好的提示。
That's a very good prompt.
但是是的。
But yeah.
我喜欢的是，它基本上准确指出了360度反馈告诉我的内容，但更加简洁。
What I like it basically told me exactly what my three sixty told me, but in a much more concise way.
某些方面确实非常出色。
And certain things is really excellent.
战略方面，我不确定。
Strategy, I don't know.
我不知道这个问题的答案。
I don't I don't know the answer to that question.
我想可能还存在一些空间。
I I would say there's probably still some.
你知道，AI的长处在于处理那些已知的事物。
You know, the thing about AI is that it's really good at kind of known things.
我仍然认为，某些类型的战略需要人类的创造力。
I still think that there's gonna be some amount of human ingenuity necessary for certain types of strategy.
所以，也许这只会变成一种非常高端的东西。
So again, it may be that it just becomes a very premium thing.
好的。
Okay.
项目经理。
Project manager.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
我认为这不会消失。
I don't think that's gonna go away.
以我的经验来看，如果你需要多人协作完成一件事，优秀的项目经理往往具备很高的情商，能够找出项目为何进展不顺，而很多时候项目出问题是因为这个人和那个人合不来。
In my experience, project managers, if you need multiple people working on something, really good project managers have really good EQ and end up figuring out why a project is not working, and a lot of times the project is not working because that person doesn't get along with that person.
就是类似这样的事情。
Like, stuff like that.
我觉得这会很难。
I think that's gonna be hard.
同样，项目流程中有些部分可以自动化，但总体来说，我无法想象AI能很好地坐在两个人中间，说：‘你们俩相处得不好。’
Again, there's parts of of the process that can be automated, but in general, I can't imagine that the AI is gonna be really good at, you know, sitting two people there and being like, You too are not getting along.
你们得开始好好相处。
You need to start getting along.
这似乎很难。
That seems hard.
所以，作为一家公司的管理者，你认为在未来最接近的时期，会有哪些职位消失，还是只是会被改变？
So, as someone who's running a company, do you think there are any positions that are going away in the nearest future or are they just gonna be transformed?
我认为大部分职位都会被改变，我认为会发生的是，一些增长不快的公司会发现，他们可以用更少的人完成同样的工作。
I think most of it is gonna be transformed and I think, what I think will happen is that some companies, particularly companies that are not growing a lot, are going to find that they can do the same with fewer people.
所以，可能不是特定的某种职业，而是像：我们真的需要100个人做客户服务吗？还是10个人就够了？
So it may not be very specific professions, but it will be like, do we need a 100 people doing customer service or can we do so with only 10?
我认为这种情况会发生。
I think that will happen.
整个职业消失这种事有点难想象。
The entire profession going away is kinda hard.
我的意思是，就连客户服务——很多人说客户服务会消失——
I mean, even customer service where a lot of people say like, oh, customer service is gonna go away.
你可能仍然需要几个真人来协调，是的。
You probably still need a couple of humans You need to orchestrate there the Yeah.
你可能仍然需要一些人来协调它。
You probably still need some people to orchestrate it.
所以我认为，随着时间推移，你会看到一些公司需要更少的人。
So I do think that you'll find some companies that will need fewer people over time.
是的。
Yeah.
我完全觉得我们原本想雇个人来帮我做Instagram的脚本，但后来我想了想，好吧。
I totally I totally feel that we wanted to hire someone who would do my scripting for Instagram, but then I'm like, okay.
我就试试Claude吧。
I'll I'll just try Claude.
然后我创建了一个Claude项目，效果非常好。
And then I created a Claude project, and it was so good.
我就想，好吧。
I'm like, okay.
我不需要再雇人了，我们的社交媒体经理现在就可以做这些。
I don't need to hire anyone that we can my social media manager can just do that now.
所以本质上就是用更少的人做更多的事。
So it's basically doing more with less people.
你会想在2026年重新开始吗？
Would you wanna start again in 2026?
如果你能回到你刚开始时的年龄，你会怎么做？
If you could, like, if you could go back to your how old you were when you started.
我可能还是会重新开始，但如果你问我，是想今天开始还是十五年前开始，我非常庆幸我们十五年前就开始了。
I probably would start again, but if you ask me to choose between whether I wanna start today or fifteen years ago, I'm very happy we started fifteen years ago.
是的，因为现在我们达到了这样的阶段，你知道，有了Duolingo，我们赚了很多钱，因为我们盈利了。
Yeah, because we now got to this point where, you know, with Duolingo, we have a lot of money because we're profitable.
我们账上有多达数十亿美元的资金。
We have like, I don't know, more than a billion dollars in the bank.
我们拥有庞大的用户群体。
We have a large user base.
我们拥有庞大的安装用户基础。
We have a large install base.
所以我对目前的状况感到非常满意。
So I feel pretty good about the situation that we're in.
但如果我们今天才开始，天哪，我不确定。
Whereas if we were to start today, boy, I don't know.
我的意思是，我觉得今天才开始会非常困难。
I mean, it's pretty hard to start today, I think.
我的意思是，我会去做，但我……
I mean, I would do it, but I
你会从哪里开始？
Where would you start?
还是同样的事情吗？
Same thing?
如果Duolingo不存在的话？
If Duolingo didn't exist?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，既然Duolingo已经存在了，我不确定自己会不会从这个开始。
I mean, given that Duolingo exists, I don't know if I would start that.
你会选择语言，还是别的什么？
Would Would it be languages or something else?
比如教人AI或者下棋？
So, like, teaching people AI or chess?
不会。
No.
我会从语言开始。
I would start with languages.
语言。
Languages.
有趣的是，我个人并不是一个狂热的语言学习者。
Interestingly, I am personally not a major language learning nerd.
我不是。
I'm not.
我的联合创始人塞维林也不是。
Neither is my co founder, Severin.
有趣的是，回顾过去，我很高兴我们从语言开始。
What is interesting is that in retrospect, I'm very happy we started with languages.
尽管我们做了大量研究，但我找不到另一个学科，能像语言这样被这么多人学习。
I don't know of another subject, even though we've done a lot of research, I don't know of another subject that gets learned as much.
如果你看一下，世界上大约有20亿人在学习语言，这就是数字。
If you look, there's about 2,000,000,000 people in the world learning languages, that's the number.
还有其他学科比这少吗？
There's any other subject is less?
意思是
Mean How
比数学多吗？
many than math?
数学是一亿。
Math is a billion.
哦，十亿人。
Oh, 1,000,000,000 people.
数学基本上就是，你知道的，世界上学习数学的人数与接受K到12教育的人数高度相关，几乎完全一致。
It's math is basically, you know, the number of people learning math in the world is highly, highly correlated, like identical almost as the number of people in the world that are in K to 12 education.
大约有十亿人。
There's about a billion.
没有人是为了兴趣而学习
Nobody is learning
数学的。
math for pleasure,
不。
No.
我的意思是，我相信肯定有，但这只占人口的极小一部分。
As a I mean, I'm sure there are, but this is a tiny fraction of the population.
所以数学大约有十亿人。
So math has about a billion.
任何东西，比如国际象棋，大约有一亿人左右。
Anything, you know, chess is like a 100,000,000, something like that.
任何学科，比如中小学的科学，也有几亿人。
Any subject, a K through 12 science is a few 100,000,000.
编程大约有两千万人。
Programming is like 20,000,000.
说到花钱的时候，
And when it comes to spending money,
语言是六十亿人。
is So language is 60,000,000,000.
这取决于谁在花钱。
It depends on who's spending the money.
是的。
Yeah.
政府在数学教育上投入了大量资金，但那是政府的行为。
Governments are spending a ton teaching math, but it's governments.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
而且这笔钱很难到位，因为政府在花，所以数学领域的支出可能更多，但这是因为政府在主导。
And that's hard that money is hard to get to because the governments are But So there's probably more spend on math, but it's because it's the government.
那消费者呢？是的。
And what about cons So consumers, Yes.
这是子
It's sub
我觉得是的。
I think so.
顺便说一下，在这20亿学习语言的人中，大约有18亿在学习英语。
By the way, of those 2,000,000,000 people that are learning language, about 1,800,000,000 are learning English.
是的。
Yeah.
所以英语真的非常庞大。
So English is just really big.
这太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
我没想到这一点。
I didn't realize that.
因为我以为会是数学或者现在的AI，也许是软件工程。
Because I thought it would be like math or now AI, maybe software engineering.
你和我生活在一个信息茧房里。
You and I live in a bubble.
是的。
We do.
是的。
We do.
我们生活在
We live in
一个信息茧房里。
a bubble.
确实如此。
That's true.
因为我们脱离了他们的文化，进入了这个泡泡，现在我们
Because we got out of their cultures into this bubble and now we're
我的意思是，现在有了AI编程，谁知道未来会怎样呢？
here I to mean, maybe programming right now with AI coding, who knows what's gonna happen?
但几年前，每当我们见到投资者时，他们都会说，每个人想学的都是编程。
But a few years ago, whenever we would meet investors, they would be like, you know the thing everybody wants to learn is coding.
是的。
Yeah.
全世界有大约两千万人正在学习编程。
It's about 20,000,000 people in the world that were learning coding.
就这些。
That's it.
也许他们愿意支付更多。
Maybe they're willing to pay more.
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