LunarCrush Live with Kaspa!

约纳坦，你好吗，兄弟？

Yonatan, how are you, my man?

挺好的。

Fine.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我们总是喜欢从你在世界的哪个角落开始聊起，今天那里怎么样？

We always like to start with where are you in the world and what is it like there today?

目前我在以色列的特拉维夫。

Currently, I'm in Tel Aviv in Israel.

总体来说有点像冬天，但还是穿短袖。

Generally winterish, but still short sleeved.

不错。

Nice.

我有个有趣的问题先问你。

I got a fun one for you to start with.

说到Web3和区块链，什么是孤儿块？

When it comes to Web three and blockchains, what is an orphan?

什么是叔块？

What is an uncle?

它们有什么区别，为什么重要？

What is the difference, and why do they matter?

这要从区块链本身说起，就像名字暗示的那样，它是一串区块组成的链。

So it begins with blockchain being naturally a chain of blocks as the name hints.

这是最初比特币协议的设计，而需要链的原因在于比特币协议是同步的。

This was the original Bitcoin protocol, and the need for a chain comes from Bitcoin protocol being synchronous one.

说到同步协议，你可以把它理解成一种需要所有参与者大致上先对上一轮达成一致，才能进入下一轮的协议。

So when you think about synchronous protocols, you think of a protocol that requires, roughly speaking, all participants to agree on the previous round before proceeding to the next round.

链式协议通常就是顺序的或同步的协议。

A chain protocol is typically a sequential or a synchronous protocol.

大约在2014、2015年的时候，我们提出了一个更通用的范式。

And around twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, we came up with a more general paradigm.

就是我们，我和我的导师，还有湖南大学的其他合著者，提出了一个更通用的范式，可以让我们看到不在链上的其他区块。

We being my advisor, myself and other co authors in the human university, which enables looking at other blocks that are not on the chain.

现在，我马上会讲到孤儿块和叔块的区别。

Now, when you and I'll get shortly to the difference between unclean orphans.

这样做的动机，并不是因为你的协议很慢。

The motivation for this is not when you have a slow protocol.

所以，如果你的链很慢，但能保持同步性，那你就不太会去关注孤儿块或者链外的区块。

So when you have a slow chain that keeps Synchrony intact, then you're not motivated to look at orphans or off chain blocks.

但如果你想加快区块生成速度，我们也可以聊聊背后的动机，那你就得跳出同步的范畴，允许并行挖矿，也就是同时挖多个区块。

But if you wanna accelerate block creation, and we can touch on the motivations for that, then you go outside the realm of Synchrony and you allow for parallel mining, to mine blocks at in parallel.

这个过程会产生一些不在链上的区块。

And this process results in blocks that are not on a chain.

如果这种情况很少见，那你其实不用太在意，可以把它们当作孤儿块处理。

Now, if it's a rare occurrence, then you don't really mind and you can orphan them.

但如果这种情况不那么少见，那你就得开始考虑把这些区块纳入共识了。

If it's less rare, then you want to start considering these blocks in your consensus.

所以术语是这样的，在像比特币这样罕见且缓慢的协议中，你会忽略链外区块，丢弃它们，然后你称它们为孤儿，算是侮辱它们。

So the terminology is in rare protocol in in rare and slow protocol like Bitcoin, then you ignore off chain off chain blocks, you discard them, and then you you call them you insult them with being an orphan.

所以你就直接丢弃它们。

So you just discard them.

好的。

Okay.

如果你确实想在更快的链中考虑它们，比如以太坊，我记得它每十二秒出一个块，也许是十三秒，我记不太清了，那么你就会开始遇到不可忽视的链外率或孤儿率。

And if you do wanna consider them in faster chains, such as Ethereum, which I believe had a block every twelve seconds, maybe 13, I don't remember exactly, then you start getting a non negligible off chain rate or orphan rate.

然后你想考虑这些区块，考虑它们是为了什么目的，你可以像我们的协议那样在共识中考虑它们，但你也可以仅仅为了给它们奖励而考虑它们。

And then you wanna consider these blocks to what end you consider them, you can consider them in the consensus as our protocols did, but you can consider them merely for giving them or granting them rewards.

这里的动机只是为了更公平、更去中心化，不让后来者失去所有的算力证明。

The motivation here being just to be more fair, be more decentralized, not cause late comers to lose all the proof of work.

所以在以太坊中，对孤儿区块的处理更加宽容，我会说，他们给予奖励，因此他们不称它们为孤儿，而是称它们为叔父。

So in Ethereum, the treatment of orphan blocks is more, I would say, tolerant, and they grant them rewards, and accordingly, they don't call them orphans, they call them uncles.

这就是这些术语的起源，但这并没有涵盖交易链外区块的全部概念。

This is the origin of the terms, but this is not encompassing the entire idea of trading off chain blocks.

这个话题更广，我可以深入讲讲。

This is a wider topic, which I can get into.

不用了。

No.

谢谢你的好意。

I appreciate that.

昨晚我看了些资料，挺喜欢“uncle”这个叫法的。

And, no, I was looking at some of the things last night, and I liked the term uncle.

然后我还看到，比如在Vitalik早期的比特币杂志博客文章里，提到了“GHOST”。

And then I saw, like, the quote, like, in the in Vitalix, like, original Bitcoin magazine blog posts, like, mentions ghost.

那好像就是你写的那篇论文。

Which is, like, your that was the paper that you had written.

我记得那篇论文你好像有个合作者。

I think with the you had a partner on that paper.

不过我觉得有意思的一点是，这归根结底跟延迟有关。

But I guess something that kinda thought was interesting was comes down to latency.

比如说，在共识机制里，像比特币，某个矿工解决了问题，然后他得广播出去。

If you're, like, within a consensus, if there's a consensus mechanism so with Bitcoin, someone solves one miner solves what's going on, and then it's like they have to broadcast that.

如果你能几乎异步地广播，甚至瞬间广播出去，那么产生孤块的概率就会更低。

And if you could almost, like, asynchronously broadcast that or instantaneously broadcast that even in a way, then there's gonna be a lower probability of an orphan.

但这就是延迟的问题所在。

But that's like, that was, like, even, like, the problem with the latency.

不过我觉得这就是你们提出的方案。

But then I think that's what you guys came up with.

我记得你们叫它“最重链获胜”。

Was that I think you called it, like, the heaviest chain wins.

我是个矿工，我在这里，刚刚解决了这个区块。

I'm a miner, and I'm over here, and I've just solved, like, for this block.

然后我广播出去。

And then I broadcast that.

而在广播到达另一个矿工的那段时间里，他们其实也解决了，或者他们以为自己解决了，但速度没那么快。

And then in that time it takes to get the broadcast to that other miner, they've actually solved it too, or they think they've solved it, but they haven't solved it as fast.

你说的意思是，就像你们说的，不是直接丢掉那个孤儿区块，然后说，嘿。

What you're saying is as a like you guys said, as opposed to just dropping that orphan and saying, hey.

你几乎解出来却什么都得不到，因为你现在在向其他矿工广播你已经完成了。

You get nothing for almost solving it because you're now broadcasting to other miners that you've done it.

你在某种程度上现在附加到那条链上了。

You're now appended to that in a way.

你从那条链上获得奖励，因为你也解出来了，只是比另一个慢。

You're earning the rewards from that chain because you have also solved it, but, like, just slower than the other one.

所以我就想到，天哪，这真的全都关乎延迟。

And so it came to me of saying, man, it's really it's all about this latency.

当然。

Sure.

所以确实是关于延迟，而且对延迟的考虑当然不是新东西。

So it is about latency and the consideration of latency is of course not new.

这是设计任何共识协议的核心。

This is the crux of designing any consensus protocol.

网络上的任何共识协议最终都归结为一个问题：你对延迟了解多少？

Any agreement protocol on the network comes boils down to the question, what do you know about the latency?

你是否在协议内部假设一个硬性上限，这在技术上称为同步协议？

Do you assume a hardbound inside the protocol, which is called technically a synchronous protocol?

你是否不假设，而是让矿工或内容参与者自己去摸索？

Do you not assume that you just let the miners or the contents participants figure it out?

Ghost 的重点并不是像你描述的那样，去激励或奖励迟到的矿工。

The point about Ghost was not to incentivize, to reward, so to speak, compensate the late miner, as you described.

这更多是在我们的另一篇论文《包容性区块链协议》中描述的。

This was more described in our other paper, Inclusive Blockchain Protocols.

而且正如我提到的，这个概念确实在以太坊中得到了实现。

And as I mentioned, this was indeed implemented in Ethereum, this concept.

考虑矿工贡献的工作量证明，在共识的核心中，用来排序，用来以不同的方式排序账本。

To consider the proof of work that miner contributed to, in the heart of consensus, to order things, to order the ledger differently.

所以，在最一般的情况下，我们先忘掉对比特币或以太坊的了解。

So in the most general case, let's just forget about what we know about Bitcoin or Ethereum.

想象一下矿工们非常频繁地挖出区块。

Just imagine miners mining blocks very frequently.

我们大胆一点。

Let's go wild.

我们每秒挖100个区块。

Let's go a 100 blocks per second.

所以这不仅仅是付钱给谁、对谁公平的问题。

So it's not just a matter of paying who and being fair to who.

这听起来更像是一个风险更高、更混乱的系统。

It's seemed sounds like a more risky system and more messy system.

它很混乱。

It's chaotic.

每秒100个区块的情况下，很直观地就能理解，像比特币和以太坊那样选择最长链，不管你怎么付钱给别人，本质上都是不安全的。

And it's very intuitive with a 100 blocks per second to understand that picking the longest chain as Bitcoin and as Ethereum do, regardless of what you're paying others, is inherently insecure.

所以考虑一个攻击者，他有一个数据中心，不受延迟影响。

So consider an attacker that has a data center and does not suffer from latency.

所以这个攻击者就算只控制10%或5%的算力，也还是能处理最长链，对吧？

So this attacker can control 10%, 5% of the hash rate and still process the longest chain, right?

因为它没有延迟问题，而所有诚实的节点分布在全球各地，就会产生这种乱七八糟的区块图。

Because it doesn't suffer from latency while all the honest nodes are distributed and create this messy graph of blocks.

你能想象吗，每秒100个区块，一个混乱的图，一个混乱的区块数据结构，技术上可以叫它DAG。

Can you imagine like a 100 blocks per second, a messy graph, a messy data structure of blocks, which technically can be called a DAG.

但这只是一个大概的画面，就想象一堆乱七八糟的区块，然后一个聪明的攻击者，直接造出一条没有空档的更长的链，把一切都赢走了。

But this is more a general picture, just picture a mess of blocks and then one smart attacker just creating a longer chain with no vacancy and winning it all.

所以显然，你不希望这种情况发生。

So obviously you don't want that to happen.

而你真正想要的是，一个更复杂的链选择或区块排序机制，或者更一般地说，一个更复杂的算法来给这些区块图排序。

And what you do want is you want a more sophisticated chain selection or block ordering or more generally, a more sophisticated algorithm to order this graph of blocks.

而这个协议不能是最长链。

And this protocol cannot be the longest chain.

从技术上讲，你想要的特性是，即使攻击者完全没有延迟，而诚实网络有很严重的延迟，攻击者也无法操纵排序。

Technically what you want, the property that even if the attacker suffers from zero latency and the honest network suffers from very substantial latency, the attacker cannot manipulate the ordering.

我们可以深入技术定义，但这更多是对瘫痪共识、异步或区块袋范式背后的直觉理解。

So we can get into the technical definitions, but this is more than intuition behind the paralyzed consensus or asynchronous or block bag paradigm.

我想继续这个话题，但我想先退一步。

I wanna continue to that, but I do wanna take a step back.

是什么让你对解决区块链或共识机制这类问题充满热情？

What makes you passionate about solving some of this stuff around around blockchain or around consensus mechanisms?

你的核心驱动力是什么？你的职业生涯是从哪里开始的？

What is the kind of the driving mission for you, and, like, where did you start your career?

你的职业生涯是如何一步步展开的？

Like like, how has your kind of career unfolded?

比如上大学、毕业、工作、做研究。

Like, going to college, coming out of college, getting working, doing research.

看起来你现在在哈佛做研究和一些工作。

It looks like you're doing some research and some work at Harvard now.

那么，这一切对你来说是如何发展的？

So what like, how has it all unfolded for you?

是什么让你对这个领域充满热情？

What makes you passionate about the space?

这个问题对我来说是个很好的反思机会。

That's a great question for me personally to reflect on.

我想和很多人一样，我的职业生涯是偶然或命运的安排，并不是我事先计划好的。

I guess like many people, my career unfolded by coincidence or by destiny that I wasn't planning on.

我本科在大学学数学，研究生阶段转到了计算机科学。

I did my math undergrad in the University, then I went to computer science for grad school.

我遇到了Aviv Zohar，他好像是从微软来的，然后我和他一起启动了一个实验室项目。

I met Aviv Zohar, which came from, I think it was at Microsoft, and then I started a lab project with him.

一开始，我对他给我的任务中概率论方面的内容更感兴趣。

I was initially more interested in the probabilistic, probability theory aspects of the task that he presented me with.

当我们发表Ghost论文时，我基本上还是个数学家。

I was mainly still a mathematician at that time when we published Ghost.

实际上，论文中我感兴趣和兴奋的部分被Habib推到了附录里。

And in fact, the parts of the paper that I was interested at and I was excited about were pushed by Habib into the appendix.

你知道，现在真的没什么人看那些了。

You know, no one really reads them today.

我花了一段时间才转变过来，但从一开始到现在，我一直被这个问题的美学所吸引。

It took me time to convert, but from the outset I was very motivated by and still motivated by the aesthetics of the problem.

所以这主要还是出于学术热情和美学追求，去处理这个区块图。

So it's still mainly an academic passion and aesthetic passion for taking this graph of blocks.

有人告诉你51%的节点是诚实的，还有人告诉你你可以对延迟做一些假设。

Someone tells you 51% are honest and someone tells you you're allowed to assume something about the latency.

根据这些假设，你需要给这个有向无环图提供一个排序，这个排序要满足某些定义好的性质。

And depending on that something, you order the, you should provide an ordering of the DAG, which has some defined or defined properties.

所以一开始是出于理论兴趣。

So it began with a theoretical interest.

随着时间推移，我逐渐接受了加密货币的理念和更根本的原则，但对我来说，这仍然是一种美学上的追求。

With time, I converted to the crypto religion and more fundamental principles, but it still remained for me an aesthetic pursuit.

更具体地说，在2018年初，我联合创立了DAG实验室，当时的目标是将DAG协议商业化。

More concretely, around beginning of twenty eighteen, I co founded DAG Labs whose mission was to, at that time, to commercialize the DAG protocols.

当时是由Polychain领投的种子轮，后来其他风投也加入了，然后就从学术模式转向了创业模式。

It was seed funded by Polychain and then other VCs, and it kind of shifted from academia to startup mode.

在这段时间里，我在人类大学完成了我的博士学位。

And at this period, I completed my PhD at the human university.

在接近尾声的时候，我和其他人一起意识到，工作量证明的商业化路径其实不太行得通。

Towards the end of this process, I kind of, together with other folks, realized that commercialization path of proof of work doesn't really make sense.

然后我们就转向了公平启动，解散了公司，那时候我继续走学术路线，去了哈佛做博士后。

And we kind of shifted to a fair launch and dissolved the entity, at at which time I continued with the academic career and went to Harvard for a postdoc.

看起来你解决这个数学问题已经很久了，或者说你对解决它一直很有热情。

It seems like you've been solving this math problem for a really long time or just passionate about solving it.

现在你站出来说，我们有了一个比较满意的解决方案。

And now you're kind of coming out and saying, we have a decent solve that we feel comfortable with.

让我们以某种方式把它商业化吧。

Let's commercialize it in in some sort of way.

是不是有点那种……

Is that kind of

一开始是数学上的追求，但问题的性质确实变了。

It started with mathematical pursuit and the nature of the problems did change.

并不是说我们一直在试图解决同一个问题，或者说我八年来一直在思考同一个问题。

It's not that we are trying to solve or that I'm trying to think about the same problem for eight years now.

问题已经变了。

The problems have changed.

变得更复杂，更细致了。

Became more sophisticated, more nuanced.

当然，对我来说现在也不仅仅是数学了。

And of course, wouldn't it's not only mathematics for me by now.

就像我说的，大概一两年后，我就皈依了加密货币这个信仰。

As I said, I converted to the crypto religion after maybe a year or two.

到现在，我对加密货币的价值有了更广泛的信念，这不仅仅是数学上的追求。

And by now it's a broader belief in the value of crypto, and it's not only a mathematical pursuit.

否则，我也不会这么深入地参与这个行业。

Otherwise, I wouldn't be that involved in the industry.

对你来说，对加密货币更广泛的信念是什么？

What would you say the broader belief in crypto is for you?

我觉得加密货币大致有两面。

I would say that crypto has two flags broadly.

一个是基于无国界货币的货币体系，这当然是中本聪提出的。

One is a stateless money based monetary system, which was, of course, put forth by Satoshi.

第二个是开放的金融体系，这基本上是以太坊，也就是Vitalik的理念。

And the second one is an open financial system, which was basically the message of Ethereum, of Italic.

以太坊出来的时候，这个理念的政治色彩没那么浓。

This message was less political when Ethereum came out.

它更像是一个令人兴奋的概念，宣传上也没那么政治化。

It was more of an exciting concept and the messaging was less political.

但如果你深入思考，这就是加密货币的两大支柱。

But if you think about it more profoundly, these are the two pillars of crypto.

无国界货币基础和开放的金融体系。

Status money base and an open financial system.

我可以详细说说这两点，如果你

I can elaborate on on both if

愿意的话。

you want.

那跟我说说，你知道，有些人可能会说比特币现在这样已经很完美了。

So tell me what like, you know, there's some people out there that might say Bitcoin's perfect the way that it is.

而且它不变这一点正是它的魔力所在。

And it it the fact that it's unchanging is the magic behind it.

而且你知道，它是运行时间最长的，找不到更好的词来形容，就是自诞生以来百分之百正常运行的系统。

And that that it's, you know, the longest running, for lack of a better term, computer system that's, you know, had a 100% uptime, you know, since since its inception.

这确实有它的价值，我觉得这很重要。

Like, there's a place for that, and I think that that's important.

听起来你好像在说，嘿，

It seems like you might be saying, you know, hey.

我觉得这个开放金融系统还有更多值得我们去探索的地方，因为比特币已经在做它自己的事了。

I think that there's there's a little bit more here for this open financial system that we need to continue to investigate because Bitcoin's kind of doing its thing.

那边没有那么多创新，不像这种开放金融系统能带来的那样，而且这个开放金融系统有一些类似的第一原则，从那个角度来看，这些原则是可以被解决或改变的。

There's not as much innovation over there as there can be with this kind of open financial system, and this open financial system has some of the similar first principles first principle things that can be solved or changed, I guess, from that standpoint.

所以看起来你的热情就是朝着这个方向去的。

And so it seems like that's kind of where your passion's leading you.

所以问题还是归结到无国籍货币的第一原则上，是否有多于一种货币的空间，或者有没有理由支持这一点。

So it boils down to the question still around the first principle of stateless money, whether there's room for more than one coin or there's a justification.

答案不一定是明确的“是”或者响亮的“是”，当然，你不一定需要成千上万种货币，但你仍然需要考虑，是不是有三五种折中方案的空间？

It's not clear that, you know, the answer is not a clear yes or resounding yes, of course, you know, you should have a field of thousands of coins, but you still need to think, okay, is there room for maybe three, five points on the trade off?

因为比特币在折中方案上有一个非常特定的点，当然它可能是保守发展的最右端，你可以争辩说，这可能是无国籍货币系统应该拥有的唯一属性，这个论点是有道理的。

Because Bitcoin has a very specific point at the trade off and of course it's the maybe rightmost extreme of conservative development, which you can argue, it's a fair argument that this is the maybe the sole property that a money like a stateless money system should have.

但我觉得从那以后，主流观点已经软化了。

But I think since then the prevailing view has softened.

所以当莱特币出现时，比特币极端主义者真的非常反对，认为这是一个非常离谱、多余的项目，如果不是离谱的话。

So when Litecoin came out, you know, Bitcoin Maxis really, really opposed it and thought this is really, really outrageous, superfluous if not outrageous project.

然后随着其他项目的出现，以及ICO风暴和其他不太合理的项目的涌入，对莱特币的看法已经变得温和了。

And then as other projects came and the storm of the ICOs and other less justifiable projects came through, the view of Litecoin has been softer.

因为比特币的保守极端，你就像被固定在一个任意的极端点上，但它就像是在历史中截取了一个任意时刻，比如2008年代码是怎么写的，当时网络的假设是什么，当时的技术和科学认知又是什么？

And for the reason that with the conservative extreme of Bitcoin, you're sort of stuck on an arbitrary point and extreme point, but it like snapshot an arbitrary point in history, how the code was written in 2008, what the assumptions of the network were by then, what were the technological and scientific understandings at the time?

我们就被困在那个点上了。

We're kind of stuck with that.

把我们的整个运动和整个加密货币都锁定在那个特定的时间点上，看起来确实是个很随意的选择。

This seems like an arbitrary point to fixate our entire movement and our entire money, crypto money on that specific point in time.

话虽如此，我确实没有，现在也没有轻率地发明另一种币。

With that said, indeed, I wasn't and I'm still not taking it lightly to invent another coin.

这就是社区重要性的所在。

This is where the importance of community comes in.

我对推销、卖币这件事一直不太自在。

I wasn't very comfortable with pushing, you know, selling coins.

我们没有做任何ICO，也没有预挖矿，原因之一就是这个。

We didn't do any ICO, we didn't do any pre mine among other reasons for that reason.

这必须是一个社区项目，与其说是出于意识形态，不如说这是让项目自我证明的方式——它有一个反馈循环，能够自我合理化，而不是由一个组织或中心化的营销团队凭空发明一种新的价值储存或交换媒介，然后开始推广它。

It needs to be a community project, not so much for the ideology, but more this is the way to justify that the project sort of, there's a feedback loop and justifies itself rather than an organizational corporation or centralized marketing team just invent a new store of value or medium exchange and starts promoting it.

这真是空谈。

This is an empty air.

所以这就是我们在公平启动和让社区自然发展时所考虑的。

So this was the kind of considerations we took when we did a fair launch and when we kind of let the community develop organically.

我喜欢你刚才说得那么委婉，说那些项目不太站得住脚。

I like I like how eloquently you said the like, just less justifiable projects came out.

我觉得你谈论市场的方式非常非常巧妙。

I think that's a very, very nice way of of talking about the market.

我想我可能会借用你的说法。

I think I might I might steal that from you.

那么，你提到了，我们来聊聊Kaspa吧。

And so, you know, you you have so let's talk about Kaspa.

比如，我们开始谈谈，你刚才提到的，嘿。

Like like, let's start let's talk a little bit about like, you talked, you know, hey.

我们开始想出这种不同类型的共识机制。

We we started to kind of come up with this different type of consensus.

显然，你为了解决这些问题已经努力了很久。

Like, obviously, you've been working on that problem trying to solve some of this stuff for a long time.

在某个时刻，你会到达一个节点，然后你会说，哇。

At some point, you hit this juncture where you say, wow.

我觉得我好像解决了某些问题，可以放心地告诉全世界了。

Like, I think I've I've kind of solved something that I feel comfortable telling the world about.

就是说，数学推导已经足够深入，你也花了足够多的时间。

Like, I've got the like, the the math is down the page far enough, and you've spent enough time.

然后你会想，好吧。

And you're like, okay.

这至少比我在市场上看到的要好，我想去尝试。

This is at least better than what I've seen out in the market I wanna go.

那么，在这个过程中，你是在哪里找到灵感的？

Like, what where where did you get, you know, in that kind of process?

还有，那个转折点是什么时候，让你觉得，好吧。

And and what what was the inflection point where, like, okay.

我们认为这是想要带给世界的东西。

We we think that this is something that we want to bring to the world.

那现在这个方案在世界上处于什么状态？

What is that as it stands today in the world?

那时候，这个概念还没有什么真正的竞争对手。

At that time, there weren't any serious competitors to that concept.

当时已经有Spectra协议了，它已经发布并且得到了验证，是我和Aviv、Yonatan一起写的。

It was Spectra Protocol, which was already out there and proven, you know, coauthored by myself and and Aviv and Yonatan.

然后在创建DAG实验室的过程中，我们研究了phantom协议，信心来自于完成论文、知道我们覆盖了弱点和敏感点，也来自于同行评审。

And then during the founding of DAG Labs, we worked on phantom protocol and the conviction comes from both from completing the paper and knowing you covered the weak points and the sensitive points and from peer review.

所以你会把它送去同行评审。

So you kind of send it to peer review.

不一定非要被会议正式接受，更多的是从社区和学术界的同行那里得到反馈，然后你判断协议是否存在根本性的挑战、问题或错误，或者根据展示方式被接受或拒绝等等。

It doesn't need to be necessarily officially accepted by a conference, more you get reviews from folks in the community and academic community, and you kind of gauge whether there's a profound challenge or problem or error in protocol, or maybe it's rejected or accepted according to the presentation, etcetera.

所以这更像是一个学术过程。

So it's more an academic process.

而且，再说一次，不管这个行业是否感兴趣、是否希望它被开发，这更像是，这更像是来自市场的需求。

And whether this is, again, whether the industry is interested and wants it to be developed or not, this is more like, this is more inbound demand.

并不是我去说服人们接受区块DAG范式。

It's not that I came and started converting people to the blockdag paradigm.

更多的是在衡量是否有足够的需求，人们是否想了解更多。

It's more gauging that there's enough demand and people want to hear more about it.

而且，那时候，对于区块DAG范式，还没有什么真正的竞争者。

And again, that time, there weren't any serious contenders to block that paradigm.

我说的区块DAG范式，指的是异步工作量证明。

By block that paradigm, I mean asynchronous proof of work.

那现在真正的第一层在哪里呢？

Where is the, like, the, like, the true Layer-one at right now?

我是说，我们有测试网吗？

I mean, do we have a test net?

所以我们在2021年11月启动了主网，我记得是。

So we we launched Mainnet on November 2021, I believe.

好的。

Okay.

我们是通过工作量证明启动的。

We launched through proof of work.

我们在启动前几天在Discord社区频道上决定了采用工作量证明，然后开始挖矿，人们也加入了进来。

We kind of decided on that proof of work a few days before the launch on the Discord community channel and started mining and people joined.

从那以后，算力增长了，挖矿社区和开发者社区都壮大了。

Since then, the hash rate grew, both the mining and the developer community grew.

主网遵循的是GHOSTDAG或Phantom协议。

The mainnet is following the ghost tag or Phantom protocol.

我记得不太清楚，大概在2018年或2019年，我们完成了Phantom GHOSTDAG论文。

I don't recall exactly, but around 2018 or '19, we completed Phantom ghost tag paper.

然后在2021年11月，我们启动了主网。

And then November 21, we launched the maintenance.

就像你说的，决定采用工作量证明是最后一刻才做的决定吗？

Like you said it was like a last minute decision to go proof of work?

选择工作量证明函数。

To choose the proof of work function.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

这一点很重要，得强调一下。

It's important to emphasize this.

决定工作量证明函数，是设计一个东西时你能拥有的最大优势，或者劣势。

Deciding the proof of work function is the main advantage you can or cannot have when you're designing a thing.

如果我们在发布前半年就定下工作量证明函数，那我们就能针对它设计专门的硬件，或者至少是非常高效的GPU。

If we decided on proof of work function half a year before launch, then we would have been able to designate it hardware or at least very efficient GPUs for that matter.

所以，决定工作量证明是什么，确实是个很关键的点。

So it it it is a sensitive point to decide what the proof of work is.

以太坊，你知道的，他们过去几年一直在努力转向权益证明。

Ethereum, you know, they've been spending the last couple of years trying to, like, move to proof of stake.

而且，你知道，关于工作量证明消耗的能源量，外面也一直有这种讨论。

And there's, you know, there's this conversation that's also been out there about the amount of energy that it takes for proof of work.

你知道，显然，如果你提出一种更高效的机制来运行和达成工作量证明的共识。

You know, obviously, if you're coming up with a much more efficient mechanism to to, like, operate and and to con to con to have the consensus of proof of work.

你知道，当我们考虑有多少矿工在挖矿，他们需要什么的时候，我们到底在看什么？

You know, what what are we looking at here when you you think about how many miners are out there and what what do they need?

比如，他们是怎么挖矿的？

Like, how are they how are they mining with?

他们用的是GPU吗？

Are they using GPUs?

他们是不是，现在有些挖矿是怎么进行的？

Are they like, how how is some of the mining happening right now?

还有，你说大家都被参与的人数淹没了，那这些人是不是分布在世界各地？

And when you said that everyone was you're overwhelmed with the, like, the amount of people that came out to to kind of participate, like, where like, are these people located all around the world?

比如，他们是怎么参与的？

Like, how are they participating?

好的。

Okay.

这里有几个问题。

So few questions here.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我经常一下子问好几个问题，因为有时候我脑子里就在想这些。

I kinda do multipoint questions a lot because sometimes I'm thinking just in my head.

有道理。

Fair enough.

我先从我记得的你最后问的几个问题开始回答。

I'll start with the I'll start like a stack with what I remember from the last from the last part of your questions.

关于矿工来自哪里，这个我不太清楚。

So regarding where the miners are coming from, I wouldn't know.

一开始是用CPU挖矿，人们就是跑一堆CPU集群，然后社区成员开发了GPU挖矿，之后又有了FPGA。

Are it began with CPU miners, people just running clusters of CPU, then a GPU was developed by a community member and then FPGAs.

所以现在，我觉得主要是GPU网络，然后还有几组FPGA集群。

So the kind of, I guess currently it's a network of mainly GPUs and then a few clusters of FPGAs.

矿工们大部分，我觉得，都在Discord上活跃。

The miners are not mostly, I guess, are in the, active in the Discord.

他们不是匿名的，但我觉得他们的位置和身份没有公开，而且他们肯定分布在全球各地。

They're not anonymous, but I don't think their location and identity is revealed and they're definitely around the globe.

在Kaspa，我们，我的意思是，社区创建了很多语言的频道和帮助频道。

So we have in Kaspa, we, I mean, the community created channels, help channels in many, many languages.

越南语、印尼语、日语、俄语，有很多很多语言的帮助频道。

Vietnam, Indonesia, Indonesia, Japan, Russian, there's like multiple, lots of, lots of channel, health channels in many languages.

所以肯定是全球性的。

So it's definitely around the globe.

还有一点关于矿工来自哪里。

And another point about where the miners came from.

在合并前几个月，有人开发了一个以太坊和Kaspa的双挖矿软件。

So a few months before the merge, someone developed a dual miner for Ethereum and Kaspa.

那时候算力真的飙升了。

And at that time the hash rate really spiked.

所以有不少矿工通过那个软件加入了Kaspa的挖矿。

So a few miners, at least many few miners joined the mining of Kaspa through that software.

这就是Kaspa矿工在Kaspa挖矿网络上的背景情况。

So that's on the context of where Kaspa miners on the Kaspa mining network.

关于工作量证明、权益证明，以及工作量证明可能带来的能源问题，这些更广泛的话题。

Regarding the broader point of proof of work, proof of stake, and maybe an an energy concerns of proof of work.

在我说我的立场之前，我想说，在支持工作量证明的人里，大致有两派。

So before I say my stance on this, I'll say there are generally two camps in proof of work.

一派认为工作量证明是发行新货币的唯一合法方式。

One camp is promoting proof of work as the only legitimate way to distribute a new money.

也就是说，货币的价值锚定在生产它的成本上，也就是电力成本，而电力的难度调整反映了供需关系。

So, you know, having an external source of pegging to the cost that you had in producing this money and this being the electricity and the difficult adjustment of this electricity representing the supply demand.

这就是新货币发行派。

So this is the new money distribution camp.

另一个阵营则强调安全性、去中心化、矿工的匿名性，以及权益证明其实源自一个已知的中心化实体，这个实体分配了不知多少比例的代币给那些有明确激励的实体，而这些激励通常不够相互制衡。

A different another camp is the camp that emphasizes the security, the decentralization, the anonymity of miners, the fact that proof of stake stems from, you know, a known centralized entity that allocated who knows how much percentages to entities with defined incentives, which typically not conflicting enough.

在工作量证明中，矿工之间竞争激烈，利益相互冲突。

In proof of work, you have these minors that are very competitive and with conflicting interests.

正是这一点让系统变得非常，我会说，用这个流行词来说，就是反脆弱。

And this is what makes the system very, I would say, anti fragile to use this buzz description.

而在权益证明中，经济上更加协调，但人们担心这是否真正构成了一个去中心化的网络。

Whereas in proof of stake, things are more coordinated economically and there's concern about whether this truly constitutes a decentralized network.

所以这就是关于工作量证明的两个阵营。

So these are the two camps about proof of work.

我个人更倾向于第一个阵营，因为货币的分配是工作量证明对增长至关重要的关键部分。

Where I personally stand is I'm more on the first camp where the distribution of money is the important part of where the proof of work is really crucial for the growth.

同时，我对工作量证明的政治可扩展性确实有些担忧。

And I do have concerns about the political scalability of proof of work.

所以即使我们关于工作量证明并非不好或在某种哲学意义上并非浪费的所有主张——这些我们可以争论——即使这些主张是正确的，要说服大众仍然不可行，政客们很容易就会引导公众舆论反对工作量证明，不管它有什么优点。

So even if all of our claims about proof work not being bad or not being wasteful in some philosophical sense that we can argue about, even if these claims are correct, it's still not feasible to convince the general mass about this and politicians would easily shift the public opinion against proof of work regardless of its merits.

所以我认为从长远来看，需要更有说服力地向大众提出某种解决方案。

So I do think in the long term, some solution needs to be solution needs to be more presented with more conviction to the general mass.

Kaspa选择了采用一种对光学ASIC友好的工作量证明算法。

In Kaspa, took the path of choosing a proof of work function that is friendly to optical ASICs.

光学ASIC这个领域，我远远算不上专家。

Optical ASICs is a field that I'm not, I'm far from being an expert on.

但大致来说，这些光学芯片用于通用计算，不仅仅是工作量证明，而且据说——因为我不是这个领域的专家——据说能效很高。

But the gist of it is there's these optical chips for general computing, not for general computation problem, not only for proof of work, which are, again, supposedly because I'm not an expert in field, which are supposedly energy efficient.

它们更资本密集，因为制造这种ASIC硬件成本很高，但电力消耗几乎为零，因为它是基于光交互，而不是电子。

They are more capital intense in the sense that it costs a lot to manufacture such ASICs, such hardware, but the electricity, there's almost no electricity consumption because it's based on light interaction, not on electrons.

所以Kaspa的工作量证明算法对光学ASIC友好，但这并不是说我们现在就有光学ASIC，或者有人已经有了。

So the proof work function of Kaspa is optical ASIC friendly, but this is not to say that we currently have optical ASICs or someone has.

社区里有关于开发它们的讨论，但我们只能希望这能实现。

There are talks in the community about developing them, but we can just hope that this will happen.

是的，随着技术的进步，能源可能会变得更加普及，甚至在某一天免费，这个问题也会得到解决。

It's like, you know, as the technology advances and, like, energy becomes potentially more ubiquitous and and for at some point, hopefully free, that also gets solved.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得时间线拉得够长的话，

And I think it's it's the kinda long enough timeline.

这些问题最终都会解决的。

It it it all gets solved.

说到这个，我同意你的看法。

When it comes to it, there is a I agree with you.

我觉得有点像是，你真的能用权益证明系统实现一种无国界的货币吗？

I think there's something it's almost like, could you really truly have a stateless money with a proof of stake system?

明白。

Copy that.

看起来，

It seem it

好像不太可能。

doesn't seem like you can.

那么，这就是你对Kaspa的设想吗？它一开始就是这样，试图成为一种无国界货币，几乎要和比特币竞争？

And so is that is that what you envision, Kaspa, start as here is, like, is it trying to be a stateless money, almost competition to Bitcoin?

它已经是无国界货币了。

It's already a stateless money.

而且我们确实对监管有很强的抵抗力，因为没有中心化的实体可以被针对。

And we're definitely very resilient against regulation because there's no centralized entity to go after.

即使有人做了错事，不幸的是，真的没有人可以关闭它。

Even if someone does something, you know, unfortunately wrong, there's really no one to shut down.

我不是社区的管理员。

I'm not an admin in the community.

社区里有太多锚点，无法关闭单一实体或进行法律追诉。

There's too many points of anchors in the community to shut down a single entity or to pursue legally.

所以从这个意义上说，我们已经是无国界货币了。

So in that term, that sense, we are already stateless money.

对，是的。

To your yeah.

我忘了你第二个问题了。

I forgot your second point.

不是。

No.

我的意思是，这就是你的愿景吗？

I mean, was that was that kind of is that the is that going to be is that the vision?

就是说，嘿。

Is that say, hey.

我们把它发布到世界上，然后，你知道，我只是社区的一员，我们看看会发生什么。

We put this out into the world and, you know, I'm just a community member and we kinda see what happens.

这是从一开始就有的意图吗？

Was that was that kind of the intent from the beginning?

就像，嘿。

Was like, hey.

我们想成为，应该有东西能和比特币竞争。

We wanna be we want there there deserves to be a competition to a Bitcoin.

而且就像你一开始说的，可能会有两个、三个这样的系统，不一定非得只有一个。

And there could be, like you were saying at the beginning, maybe two, maybe three of these in a way it doesn't necessarily need to be one.

这是你们的愿景吗？

Has that been the vision?

所以我们遵循的是中本聪创建比特币时的原则，或者我该说，她创建比特币时的原则。

So we're following Satoshi's principles when he created Bitcoin or maybe I say when she created Bitcoin.

但我不认为这是对比特币的竞争。

But I don't see it as a competition to Bitcoin.

再说一次，只有当你认为在设计系统时存在一个单一的权衡点时，这才算竞争。

Again, it's a competition only if you believe that there's a single point in the trade off of when designing a system.

所以，你知道，我们给Kaspa取名为Silver。

So, you know, we named Kaspa Silver.

Kaspa是古阿拉姆语中的银。

Kaspa is an ancient Aramaic silver.

如果你还记得，这是莱特币的梗。

This was the meme of Litecoin, if you remember.

对。

Yep.

对。

Yep.

甚至银币，就像硬币一样，就是银币，对，没错。

It's even the silver, like the coin, like it's a silver Yeah, exactly.

所以在古代，银币和金币相比，确实是一种不同权衡的货币。

So in in in in in the ancient world, silver was exactly a coin with a different trade off versus gold.

它没那么珍贵，但作为交换媒介更方便，原因嘛，我当时就提到了。

It was less precious, but more convenient as a medium of exchange for reasons, you know, I went alive at that time.

但即使在古代，货币就是货币，因为需要不同的权衡，所以有好几种货币。

But, so even in the ancient world, money was, you know, money, you had several money, monies because due to the need to have different trade offs.

所以我不认为这是对比特币的竞争。

So I don't see this as a competition to Bitcoin.

再说一次，这并不意味着我们可以设想几十种工作量证明币。

And again, this doesn't mean we can envision, you know, dozens of proof of work coins.

我觉得那不是一个好的愿景。

I don't think that would be a good, you know, a good vision.

我猜，按照我个人的看法，不会有超过五种前十名的货币属性组合是合理且应该独立存在的。

I would guess, you know, it's my own taste that there wouldn't be more than there isn't a place for more than five top 10 money, bundles of money attributes that are justifiable, you know, justifiably to be that are justified to be separate.

比如说，好吧，可以创建，可以。

So for instance, okay, can create, could Okay.

Kaspa目前每秒一个区块。

Kaspa has currently one block per second.

我们会升级到每秒八个区块，如果数学上可行的话，希望能更多。

We are, we will upgrade it to have eight blocks per second and hopefully more if we find it, you know, if the math works well.

但这并不意味着，如果我们有了每秒八个区块的系统，别人想要每秒十二个区块，就应该推出一个新的第一层。

Now, this doesn't mean that if we have an eight block per second system then and someone else wants to have a 12 blocks per second system, then they should launch a new Layer-one.

你需要有一个更广泛的愿景，关于你想要的一组属性。

It's you need to have some broader vision of a bundle of properties that you want to have.

所以如果你问我Kaspa拥有并希望保持的属性组合是什么，那就是在保持中本聪系统原则的同时，优化确认速度，而不是确认时间。

So if you ask me about the bundle of properties that Kaspa has and aspires to maintain, it would be optimizing the speed of confirmations, not confirmation times keeping the while keeping the same principles of Satoshi system.

所以，工作量证明、区块、交易费、UTXO，还有那个SET，就是那个用于验证的最小脚本语言，等等。

So proof of work, block, transaction fees, UTXO, know, SET being the minimal scripting language that is secure for verification, etc.

所以总的来说，它遵循了中本聪和比特币的原则，但我不会说它是在竞争。

So all in all, it's following Satoshi's and Bitcoin's principles, but I wouldn't describe it as competition per se.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我是说，从某种意义上说，一切都是为了争夺注意力。

Well, I mean, that in a way where it's everything is a competition for attention.

但你是说，它并不是要直接取代比特币。

But but you're saying but you're saying it wasn't it's not out to nothing's out to, like, directly replace Bitcoin.

你是说，嘿。

You're saying, hey.

我们认为比特币会有它的位置，因为就像你说的，社区，而且归根结底，比特币没有变。

We think that this is Bitcoin will have its place because, like you're saying, the community and at the end of the day, like, Bitcoin hasn't changed.

而且我们可以说，技术可能确实有点过时了，对吧，比起现在的一些东西。

And and we can say that, like, the technology probably is, you know, a little actually more antiquated, right, than some of the things that are out there.

但它还是会保持很多价值，因为基本上它现在已经像是一种信仰了。

But it's still going to maintain a lot of value because the the it's basically a religion at this point.

你知道吗，相信比特币、成为其中的一部分，这挺有意思的，而且我们也不知道创始人是谁，它就是个神秘的存在。

You know, believing in Bitcoin and being a part of that, it's like, it's almost kind of interesting too that we don't know who the founder is either, and it's just kind of mysterious thing that's out there.

这其实挺像宗教的，跟宗教的某些特点挺吻合的。

It's like that's it kind of aligns pretty well with, like, almost like what a religion would would align with.

而且围绕它建立了很多社区。

And there's a lot of community built around that.

所以我觉得，除了公平启动的工作量证明系统，几乎没有什么其他选择能够竞争，并且能被大众广泛使用。

And and and so, I mean, it's it's almost like there's no other option outside of a fair launch proof of work system that could even and should even be able to compete and become usable by a large mass of people.

我的问题是，你觉得为什么其他项目都转向权益证明，而你还是坚持这个定位，尤其是在比特币现在这个阶段？

My my question, I guess, on that is why do you think other like, with everyone going to a proof of stake, like, I I like where where you're thinking about having this where it's positioned, especially right now with where Bitcoin is at.

现在有很多矿工。

And there's a lot of miners out there.

有很多机器闲置在那里，人们可能正在寻找新的目标。

There's a lot of machines sitting out there that people are maybe looking to point at something.

所以你时机把握得挺好的。

So it's good timing on your part.

我不知道这是你故意的，还是碰巧天时地利。

I don't if that was on purpose or by, you know, the stars aligning.

但你觉得为什么其他人没有尝试在这个方向做点什么呢？

But, you know, why do you think other folks haven't gone and tried to build something in this vein?

首先我得说，我不确定——原谅我说句大不敬的话——我不确定比特币社区现在还有那么活跃、那么有吸引力。

I would first say that I'm not sure, pardon my heresy, I'm not sure Bitcoin community is that vibrant and that attractive at this point in time.

所以看起来社区对比特币这种货币的兴趣，是的，它仍然是抵押品之王，但我不确定它会一直这样。

So it seems that interest in the community has, in Bitcoin the money, yeah, it's still the king of collateral, but I'm not sure it will stay that way.

但保守的发展方式真的把人们推开了，即使是那些对工作量证明和这些原则充满热情的人，也没有太多发展空间，没有太多参与空间。

But the conservative development has really pushed away people, even people that are enthusiastic about proof of work and these principles, there's not a lot of room for development, there's not a lot of room for participation.

我不太喜欢闪电网络。

I'm not a big fan of Lightning Network.

我想说的是，如果你是一个年轻开发者，你被加密货币的信仰所吸引，你真的非得在比特币圈子里混吗？

And I would say, okay, so if you're a young dev and you were converted to crypto religion, do you really have to do in Bitcoin circles?