基因影响你行为的惊人方式，以及不表达需求的严重后果

今天在《你应当知道的事》节目中，如果你总是保留过去的物品，难以放手，我有一些很好的建议给你。

Today on Something You Should Know, if you tend to keep stuff from your past and have trouble letting it go, I've got some great advice for you.

然后，你知道吗？你的基因会影响你的行为，而且并不总是以积极的方式。

Then, did you know your genes influence your behavior, and not always in a good way?

所有这些自我控制问题——吃得过多、难以管理金钱——都可以归因于我们携带的这些基因，它们在悄悄推动我们走向自己并不想要的方向。

All these self control problems, eating too much, having trouble managing money, it can be attributed back to the fact that we carry these genes that are nudging us into a direction that we don't want to go.

此外，还有一种方法可以让你吃下的任何食物味道更好，我们还会探讨为什么你必须在人生中主动表达自己的需求。

Also, there is something you can do to make anything you eat taste better, and we'll explore why you've got to ask for what you want in life.

如果你不这么做，就会有后果。

If you don't, there are consequences.

例如，不主动争取、不协商你的薪资，尤其是在刚进入职场时，可能会让你的职业生涯损失数百万美元，因为你从一开始就处于较低的起薪水平。

There are huge consequences to not asking and not negotiating your salary, for example, when you first start out in the workplace, can cost you several million dollars over the course of your career because you're starting at a lower base salary.

所有这些内容，今天都在《你应当知道的事》节目中。

All this today on something you should know.

《你应当知道的事》——提供引人入胜的资讯、世界顶尖专家的见解，以及你可以在生活中实际运用的实用建议。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

今天，与迈克·卡鲁瑟斯一起收听《你应该知道的事》。

Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

你好，欢迎收听《你应该知道的事》播客第132期。

Hi, and welcome to episode number 132 of the Something You Should Know podcast.

我非常感激你们的收听，也感谢你们觉得这些节目有趣，我诚挚邀请你们把节目分享给认识的人，帮助我们扩大听众群体，也把一些有价值的信息传递给你的朋友。

I am so grateful that that you listen and that you find these programs interesting, and I invite you to share them with someone you know and and help us grow our audience and and share some valuable information with your friends.

今天我们节目一开始先提一个问题。

We start the program today with a question.

你是不是那种喜欢保留东西的人？

Are you someone who likes to keep stuff?

你是不是有很多过去的东西，就是怎么也舍不得扔掉？

Do you have a lot of things from your past that you just can't quite throw away?

当人们被问到为什么要把东西存放在阁楼、车库或衣柜深处时，答案通常是：因为你永远不知道，说不定哪天就用得上。

When you ask people why they save stuff in the attic or the garage or in the back of the closet, the answer is usually something like, because you never know, I might need it someday.

然而，根据专业整理师迈克·纳尔逊的说法，你很可能根本用不上。

However, according to professional organizer Mike Nelson, you probably won't.

在他多年的整理工作中，他估计人们从未再使用过他们保存的95%的东西。

In all his years of organizing, he estimates that people never again use 95% of the things that they save.

所以，如果你打算留着东西以防万一，不如直接扔掉或送人。

So if you're planning to save stuff just in case, you're probably better off throwing it out or giving it away.

清理家中杂物还有另一个很好的理由。

There's another good reason to declutter and get rid of stuff in your home.

那些整理并清理掉家中杂物的人几乎都会减肥。

People who organize and clear out the junk in their house almost always lose weight.

换句话说，杂乱似乎会阻碍减肥。

To put it another way, having clutter seems to hinder weight loss.

所以，去吧，把那些杂物扔掉吧，你大概永远不会再用到它们，而且你可能会变得更瘦。

So go ahead, get rid of the junk, you'll probably never use it, and you'll probably get skinnier.

这就是你应该知道的事情。

And that is something you should know.

你可能对基因有一定了解，它们决定了你的眼睛颜色、身高以及其他一些身体特征。

You probably know a little bit about your genes, that they determine things like the color of your eyes and how tall you are and other physical characteristics.

但它们的作用不止于此。

But they do more than that.

它们还会影响你的行为，可能比你意识到的还要大。

They also influence your behavior, maybe more than you realize.

而且它们常常促使你去做一些你本不该做的事。

And often they influence you to do things you probably shouldn't do.

当你了解基因的工作原理后，就可以在一定程度上巧妙地利用它们，帮助自己表现得更好。

When you understand how your genes work, you can trick them to some extent to make them help you behave better.

杰·菲兰是加州大学洛杉矶分校的进化生物学家，著有《从性到金钱：驯服我们的原始本能》一书。

Jay Phelan is an evolutionary biologist from UCLA and he's author of a book called From Sex to Money to Taming Our Primal Instincts.

嗨，杰。

Hi, Jay.

欢迎。

Welcome.

嗨。

Hi.

谢谢你能邀请我，迈克。

Well, thanks for having me, Mike.

所以我认为我大致明白，基因可以决定一些事情，比如你的眼睛颜色，或者我是否容易患上某种疾病。

So I think I understand generally that, you know, genes can determine things like your eye color or, you know, whether I'm predisposed to get an illness.

但基因是如何影响或改变行为的呢？

But how do genes affect or alter behavior?

哦，天啊，这是一个争议极大的问题。

Oh, hell, that's a hugely debated question.

这取决于你关注的是哪方面。

It depends on what you look at.

我认为稳妥的说法是，基因对我们行为的影响范围在0%到100%之间。

I would say the safe answer is it's somewhere between 0100% of what we do.

你这话说得可有点冒险啊。

Well, you went out on a limb there.

我确实是在冒险，而且即便如此，还是会有人不满意。

I'm going out on a limb there and even then people are going to be unhappy.

不，说真的，对于某些特质，当你出生时，可能就像眼睛颜色一样，基因会告诉你如何沉积色素，让你的身体能够接收来自周围世界的光线并看见东西。

No, seriously though for certain traits when you are built, it might be something like eye color, you've that says here's how you lay down the pigment that's going to allow your body to take in light from the world around you and see stuff.

你体内的指令基本上就是这么说的，那就是你的眼睛会是什么样子。

Well, the instructions you have pretty much what that says, that's what your eye is going to look like.

如果你有棕色眼睛的基因，那你的眼睛就会是棕色的。

If you've got the gene for brown eyes, that's what they're going to look like.

所以这是100%确定的。

So it's 100%.

但当你走向另一个极端时，可能会有一些基因只是轻微地引导你朝某个方向发展。

But then you go all the way to the other extreme and you can have genes that just nudge you one way or nudge you another way.

比如，有些基因与你的食欲有关，它们会告诉你：如果有高热量食物可用，你就应该吃掉它。

You can have genes that relate to your appetite for instance and they can tell you, if you have access to high calorie food, you should consume it.

所以现在这让我们陷入了麻烦，因为我们能接触到大量的食物。

So nowadays that gets us into trouble because we have access to tons of food.

我们不再是狩猎采集者了。

We're not hunter gatherers anymore.

但我们拥有一个巨大的大脑，这个大脑让我们能够评估事物并做出改变。

But we've got this big brain and the big brain says we can evaluate things and alter.

所以，我可能一直都很饿。

So I might be hungry all the time.

事实上，我今天来之前把一打甜甜圈留在了家里。

In fact, I left a dozen donuts at home before I came in today.

我真的很想把它们全吃掉，但我心想：我觉得我不该这么做。

I really wanted to eat them all, but I thought, I don't think I should do that.

于是我就直接走了，没有把它们带过来，而是留在了那里。

And so I just left and rather than bringing them, I left them there.

所以，我的基因在告诉我：嘿，你得多吃点，你得多吃点。

So I have genes that are saying, Hey, you got to eat more, you got to eat more.

但我也可以压制这些冲动。

But I can also override those.

那为什么没有基因引导我们去吃西兰花、按时睡觉、不过量饮酒呢？

Why aren't there genes that guide us towards broccoli and going to bed on time and not drinking too much?

为什么基因总是似乎在引导我们去做那些对我们绝对有害的事情？

And why do the genes always seem to nudge us towards the things that are absolutely no good for us?

这是因为我们携带的基因，是经过数百万年演化、最能带来携带者最大繁殖成功率的基因。

That's because the genes that we carry are the ones that over millions of years are the ones that led to the greatest reproductive success of the people that carried them.

所以我们是在一个狩猎采集者的世界上进化而来的，这占了我们进化历史的99%。

So we evolved in a world where we were hunter gatherers, this is 99% of our evolutionary history.

我们生活在小群体中，食物不可预测且相对匮乏。

So we were in small groups with unpredictable food in relatively short supply.

因此，那些促使携带者获得最佳生存结果的基因，就是那些告诉你要尽可能多吃、要寻找高热量食物的基因。

And so the genes that were the ones that nudge their carriers to the best outcomes were the ones that said, you got to consume as much food as you can, you got to seek out high caloric value food.

那个世界里没有钱。

There was no money in that world.

所以没有基因会告诉你：你应该把多余的粮食存起来以备将来。

So there were no genes that said, here you should save this surplus for the future.

相反，任何你拥有的多余食物，如果不吃掉就会腐烂。

Instead, any surplus you had that was in food and it's going to rot if you don't consume it.

所以，我们对金钱的本能适用于狩猎采集时代，但不适用于今天的世界。

So our instincts for money are appropriate for the hunter gatherer world but not today's world.

因此，这正是我们存在如此多自控问题的核心原因。

And so that's at the heart of why we have so many self control problems.

因为我们携带的这些基因是适应于另一个世界的。

It's that we carry these genes that are adapted to a different world.

那么谈谈基因如何影响男女之间的吸引力吧。

So talk about, how genes affect how men and women are attracted to each other.

是有些人喜欢金发，有些人喜欢瘦削的伴侣，有些人则喜欢体型更壮硕的男性吗？

Is it the fact that some people prefer blondes or some people like skinny mates and some people like heavier men?

这是基因在起作用，还是只是你大脑中单纯喜欢而已？

Is that genes at work or is that just something in your brain that you just like them?

是的，这是个好问题。

Yeah, that's a good question.

只是你大脑中单纯喜欢而已吗？

Is it just something in your brain that you just like?

在回答这个问题之前，我先回到另一个话题：我想象在我们的大脑中，只是简单地觉得‘我喜欢这种食物’或‘我喜欢那种食物’。

Before I address that, I'll first go back to another thing where I imagine in our brain it's just, oh, I prefer this food or I prefer that food.

你可能会认为食物偏好只是一些无法解释的怪异偏好。

And you might imagine that food preferences are just some just unexplainable wacky thing.

但如果我们从跨文化的角度，或者观察其他物种，就会发现食物中脂肪含量越高，相对于碳水化合物或蛋白质，人们就越偏好它。

But if we look cross culturally or if we look at other species, we find that the higher the percentage of fat in some food as opposed to carbohydrates or protein, the greater the preference for it.

事实证明，当你摄入脂肪时，获得的能量是碳水化合物或蛋白质的两倍以上——每克脂肪提供九卡路里，而碳水化合物或蛋白质只有四卡路里。

And it turns out you get twice as much energy, more than twice as much energy, nine calories per gram as opposed to four when you consume fat.

所以我们并没有有意识地意识到：‘哦，我就是在做这件事。’

So we don't consciously know, oh, that's what I'm trying to do.

但我们的大脑中存在这种偏好，这反映了进化上的适应性。

But we have this preference in our brain and it reflects this evolutionary adaptation.

那么，当我们谈到对伴侣的喜好、我们在伴侣身上寻找什么时，一个被研究得相当充分的例子就是腰臀比。在女性中，腰臀比与生育能力存在相关性：腰围与臀围的实际测量值之比在0.7左右时，比高于或低于0.7的数值与更高的生育能力相关。

So now when it comes to what do we like in a mate, what are we looking for in a mate, one example that's been pretty well studied is waist to hip ratios and in women there is a correlation between the waist to hip ratio and fertility such that a waist to hip, so the actual measured inches of waist, measured inches of hips, if it's somewhere around 0.7 that's associated with higher fertility than if it's higher than 0.7 or lower than 0.7.

在过去几十年中，尽管我们看到男性对女性体重偏好（偏重或偏轻）有所变化，但腰臀比的偏好却几乎没有改变。

And over the decade as we see shifts in whether or not male prefer higher body weight or lower body weight females, we see very little shift in waist to hip ratio.

所以看起来有两件事在同时发生：一方面是文化影响着你喜欢什么、不喜欢什么，另一方面则是这种与生育能力相关的驱动力。

So it seems like two things can be going on that there's a cultural influence of what do you like, what do you not like, but there's also this driving fertility there as well.

当女性审视男性时，情况也类似：她们偏好年轻、身体健康或充满活力的男性，但社会地位也同样重要，因为如果你要养育后代，就需要获得资源。

And when females look at males, same thing that there are these preferences for youth for physical condition or vigor, but then status is really important as well because if you are producing offspring, you need access to resources.

因此，男性可能掌控了更多资源，即使他们的体态不如从前健壮，而女性虽然可能偏好健康、年轻、皮肤紧致的伴侣，但也同样重视对资源的掌控。我有个朋友，我觉得这事挺有意思。

And so as males may control more resources, maybe they don't look as fit as they used to and while females could have a preference for fitness and health and youthful looking skin, there's also this preference for the control of resources and I had a friend and I thought it was funny.

他告诉我，他年纪大了，大概四十岁左右，说最近几年锻炼越来越难了。

He was telling me he got older, he was maybe 40 or so and he said, it's getting harder and harder for me to exercise these days.

我一向都坚持锻炼。

I've always exercised.

他说，但过去几年我变得非常富有。

He said, but in the last few years I've gotten really rich.

他说，我从未有过这么多女性想和我约会。

He said, I've and never had more women want to date me.

现在他说，我比以往任何时候都胖，但不知为何，这并没有成为劣势，因为我生活中有了其他变化。

Now he said, I'm fatter than ever and yet somehow I'm not getting penalized for that because I've had this other change in my life.

所以你面临着这些复杂的因素组合。

So you have these complicated sets factors going on.

我正在与杰·菲兰交谈。

I'm speaking with Jay Phelan.

他是加州大学洛杉矶分校的进化生物学家，也是《自私的基因》一书的作者。

He is an evolutionary biologist at UCLA, and he's author of the book Mean Genes.

你知道，在这个节目里做广告的公司，不像广播里那样铺天盖地全是广告。

You know, the companies that advertise on this program, it's not like on the radio where it's just a bazillion commercials.

我会深入了解每个公司，确保它们提供的产品确实是高质量的。

I learn about each company so I know what they're offering is real quality.

今天我想聊一聊其中一家赞助商：FreshBooks。

And one of those sponsors I'd like to talk about today is FreshBooks.

FreshBooks让你可以免费试用一个月，无需信用卡，什么都不用。

FreshBooks is going to let you try their service for free for a month, no credit card, no nothing.

我相信你一定会喜欢它。

And I'm sure you're gonna love it.

为什么？

Why?

FreshBooks 提供极其简单的会计软件，能极大简化并加速开票、跟踪支出和在线收款等任务。

FreshBooks makes ridiculously easy accounting software that radically simplifies and speeds up tasks like invoicing, tracking expenses, and getting paid online.

他们发现，使用 FreshBooks 每年可以节省多达 192 个小时，相当于每月腾出两天时间，让你专注于真正重要的事情。

They figured out that you could reclaim up to one hundred and ninety two hours a year using FreshBooks, which works out to about two days a month, freed up for you to do what's really important.

他们已经帮助超过一千万人处理了他们的文书和财务事务。

They've already helped over 10,000,000 people deal with their paperwork and finances.

那为什么不让他们也帮你呢？

So why not let them help you?

你可以免费试用 30 天，你不仅会惊讶于 FreshBooks 的简单易用，还会惊叹于他们屡获殊荣的客户服务。

You can try it free for thirty days and you will be amazed not only how simple FreshBooks is, but they have this award winning customer service.

你一打电话，通常在三声之内就能接通真人，而且这些客服人员都经过专业培训，很可能当场就能解答你的问题。

You call, you get a real human being, usually within about three rings, and that person is trained so they can probably answer your question right then and there.

如果你经营小企业，不妨试一试。

If you have a small business, give this a try.

我知道你一定会喜欢FreshBooks，而且你可以免费试用三十天，无需提供信用卡信息。

I know you're really going to like FreshBooks, And you can get an unrestricted thirty day free trial, no credit card required.

你只需要访问freshbooks.com/something，并在‘你是如何得知我们的’部分输入你该知道的内容。

All you have to do is go to freshbooks.com/something and enter something you should know in the how did you hear about us section.

freshbooks.com/something。

Freshbooks.com/something.

所以杰伊，想想你刚才说的。

So Jay, you know, just think about what you were saying.

为什么男性会对女性的腰臀比有偏好，而我们却并没有意识到这一点呢？

How is it that men can have a preference for women with a certain waist to hip ratio, and yet we don't consciously know it.

我的意思是，我们怎么能被自己都不知道喜欢的东西吸引，却又确实被它吸引呢？

I mean, how can we be attracted to something that we don't know we're attracted to and yet we are attracted to?

是的，腰臀比确实与生育能力有关。

Yeah, the waist to hip ratio and how it turns out to be related to fertility.

实际生育的孩子数量让我很惊讶，因为我跟你一样，并没有 consciously 注意到某种特定标准，人们也不会说他们之所以偏好某人就是因为这个原因。

Actual number of children produced is stunning to me because I'm like you, I don't have some conscious thing that I key into and people don't state that that's why they prefer one to another.

他们会说，我只是更喜欢这一个。

They'll say, I just like this one better.

这就是了，这件事在无意识中影响着我们，而我认为，这正是说明某种事物即使如此无意识仍能产生影响的最佳例子。

And there it is that this thing is unconsciously influencing us and probably the best thing that I can think of in terms of how can something so unconscious still have an influence.

如果我扔给你一个球，你要接住它，就必须预测它的抛物线轨迹；要准确预测物体在抛物线上的位置，实际上需要微积分。

If I throw you a ball, in order for you to catch the ball, you have to make predictions about this arc and to predict exactly where something's going to be on an arc requires actual calculus.

你可以在任何时刻知道它将在哪里、将在哪里，然后你就接住了球。

And you can know at any point in time, here's where it's going be, here's where it's going be and then you catch it.

但你并没有进行这些计算，而我一扔球，你就接住了。

Now you're not doing those calculations and yet I throw you the ball, you catch it.

所以从某种意义上说，你已经完成了这些计算，无意识地做出了预测，而无需有意识地去做。

So you have done in some sense the calculations, you've made the prediction unconsciously without having to do it consciously.

情况就是这样，我们并不总是知道原因。

And so it's like that, that we don't always know why it is.

从进化角度来看，我们是否意识到自己行为的原因并不重要。

From an evolutionary perspective, it doesn't matter if we have conscious awareness of why we do something.

有没有什么公式或万能解法，能让我们在意识到基因正在以可能对我们不利的方式影响我们时，反过来进行引导？

Is there any formula, any magic bullet that knowing that our genes are nudging us in ways that may not be so great for us, how do you nudge back?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's such a good question.

我举个例子。

Here's one example.

自然选择让我们在消耗能量方面变得极其高效。

Natural selection has caused us to be super efficient when it comes to expending energy.

如今我们说这是懒惰。

Nowadays we say we're lazy.

我们不想浪费任何不必要的能量。

We don't want to expend any energy that we don't have to.

但我能理解，我明白了。

But I can understand that, I see.

这就是为什么进化会让我变得如此高效地懒惰。

Here's why evolution would cause me to be super lazyefficient.

但一旦我理解了这一点，我就可以自己做决定了。

But once I understand that, now I can make my own decision.

比如，在加州大学洛杉矶分校，我有一个选择：我需要办理停车证，我可以申请蓝色停车证，这让我几乎可以停在任何我想停的地方。

So for instance, a UCLA, one of the options I have, I have to get a parking permit and I can get a blue permit and that allows me pretty much to park anywhere I want.

我可以停好车后，慢慢爬到办公室，因为蓝色证允许我停在任何地方。

I can park, I could crawl to my office from my parking space and it allows me to park anywhere.

所以，如果我愿意，我可以把车停在校园的另一头，这样每天就能多走二十五分钟，而这正是美国心脏协会建议的运动量。

So if I wanted, I could park clear across campus and every day gets a twenty five minutes of walking that the American Heart Association says I should.

但每天我都有理由说，今天我赶时间，要迟到了。

But every day I have some reason why today I'm in a rush, I'm late for this.

我还是干脆把车停在办公室门口吧。

I better just park right next to my office.

另一方面，我也可以申请黄色停车证，而黄色证要求我把车停在很远的停车场，否则就会收到一张昂贵的罚单。

On the other hand, I can get a yellow permit and the yellow permit requires me to park in a lot that's really far away or else I get an expensive ticket.

现在，我知道自己总会偷懒，而这种懒惰在进化上是有适应性的。

Now, I know that I'm going to be super lazy all the time that that is evolutionarily adaptive.

所以，如果我在年初时用一次强大的意志力，决定不选蓝色停车证，而选择黄色停车证。

So if I have one moment of big willpower at the beginning of the year and I say, I'm not going get the bluebird, I'm going to get the yellow permit.

一旦我选了它，靠近办公区停车就不再是选项了。

Once I have that, it's not even an option to park close.

因此，这根本不需要任何意志力。

So it doesn't take any willpower at all.

而意志力是薄弱的，它终会失败。

And willpower is weak, it's going to fail.

所以，如果我能用年初那一次意志力，设计好让自己一整年都必须停在远处，那么之后每天就不需要再动用意志力，却能保证每天步行二十五分钟。

So if I outsmart these drives I have by using one moment of willpower where then for the next year I have to park far away, it takes no willpower but I get my twenty five minutes of walking in every day.

所以，你明白我的意思了吗？你的基因可能仍在与你作对，但你可以更聪明地思考：如何用最少的意志力，获得最大的效果？

So you see what I'm saying that your genes still might be fighting you but what you can do is be smart and you can say, how can I get the most bang for my buck with my willpower?

因为当你知道必须停那么远时，即使赶时间，你也会调整，提前出发，一切都会顺利。

Because when you know you have to park that far away, even if you're in a rush, you'll adapt, you'll get there early enough, and everything will be fine.

你只需照做就行。

You just do.

是的

Yeah.

这根本不是选项。

It's not it's not an option.

如果办公室的电梯坏了，你就直接走楼梯上去。

If the elevator is out in your office, you just take the stairs up.

在其他日子，你本来也可以走楼梯，但你不会，因为无论需要多少意志力，我觉得这跟钱有关。

On any other day, you could still take the stairs up but you don't because whatever the willpower takes or I think this about money.

我拿到工资，钱存进账户后，我就想，我要存钱，所以好吧，我每天每分钟都可以提醒自己：得努力少存点钱，或者得努力少花点钱，得少花钱。

I get money and my paycheck is deposited and I think, I want to save money and so, okay, every minute of every day I could say, I got to try to save less money or I got to try to spend less money, got to spend less money.

但到了月底，我还是把账户里所有的钱都花光了，因为我知道钱在那里，可以花，而要控制这种冲动非常困难。

But somehow by the end of the month, I've spent whatever money was put into my account because I know it's there, can spend it and the willpower is very hard to exert.

另一方面，如果我能想出办法，在我看到钱之前就把钱转走，我最早做的一个方法就是这个项目：钱被转到一个银行，离我有几千英里远，在科罗拉多。

On the other hand, if I come up with ways that the money is taken out of my account before I ever see it and one of the first things I did was this program where money got sent to some bank and it's like in Colorado, thousands of miles away from me.

我根本没有卡可以取用那笔钱。

I didn't have a card to access it.

我打几个电话就能把钱取出来。

I could with a few phone calls, could get the money.

显然，那还是我的钱，但这让事情变得非常困难。

Obviously, it's still my money but it makes it really hard.

所以我报名参加了这个项目，一点一点地，我开始要求把更多月工资转过去。

So I signed up for this and little by little I started saying send more of my monthly paycheck there.

现在每个月，只要钱进入我有ATM卡的账户，我就会花掉每一分钱。

Now each month whatever gets put into my account here, the one I have an ATM for, every cent of that I spend.

我非常擅长把所有多余的钱都花光。

I'm really good at consuming all of my surplus.

但还有另一笔钱在远方，无法轻易取用，我看不到它，但它在不断积累。

But there's other thing that's far away and it's not accessible and I can't see that accumulates.

这就是我能够买下房子的方式，我知道我很容易意志薄弱。

That's how I was able to buy a house that I know I'm gonna be weak.

所以我提前规划，把钱放在别处，这样就不需要任何意志力了。

So I plan for it and I put it somewhere else and then it doesn't take any willpower.

所以对我来说，理解我们是由进化塑造的这一事实，其核心启示是：如果我试图在每一刻都靠意志力与基因对抗，我很可能不会赢，但我可以通过几次精心安排的意志力行动来智胜它们。

So for me the big message from understanding that we have been produced by evolution is to understand I'm probably not going to win in the battle against my genes if I go head to head minute by minute of trying to have willpower, but I can outsmart them with a few well timed exertions of willpower.

我可以重新构建我的环境，从而不再依赖意志力，从而获得更好的结果。

I can actually restructure my world so I don't have to rely on it and I can get a better outcome.

这真是很好的建议，因为我想我们都曾处于这种境地——我直觉上知道，如果你让雇主在你看到钱之前就把钱转到某个账户，你更有可能存下来，而不是拿到钱之后再指望自己把它转过去，因为你已经看到它了。

Well that's good advice because I think we've all been in that position where, and I intuitively, we know that if you, you know, if you send, have your employer send money to an account before you see it, you're more likely to save it as opposed to get it all and hope you send it to that account because you've seen it.

所以我们都明白这一点，我们都懂。

It's in, So we all know that, we all get that.

我们只需要去做。

We just have to do it.

是的，一旦你理解了这个道理，就不需要多少深奥的智力了。

Yes, there's not a lot of deep intellectual power required once you understand that message.

当人们退休时，他们绝大多数财富都体现在房产上。

When people retire, the vast majority of their wealth is in their house.

并不是因为某个聪明的计划，比如‘这个月我要存这么多钱’。

Not because of some smart, oh yeah, month we're gonna save this much money.

但真正的原因是我们需要一个地方住。

But instead it's because, hey, we need somewhere to live.

我们月复一月地支付房贷。

We keep paying the mortgage month after month.

这又像是一种强制储蓄计划。

And it's, again, it's like an enforced savings plan.

根据你所说的，似乎我们最近听到的某些男性不良行为，也是受到基因的驱使，而避免让自己身处那些情境，可能会更容易抵抗这种驱使。

It seems that based on what you're saying that some of the bad male behavior that we've been hearing about lately, that that too is nudged by genes and that maybe not putting yourself in those positions makes it easier not to be so nudged.

记得副总统迈克·彭斯说过，我不会和另一个女人单独待在一间屋子里。

Remember, the vice president Mike Pence was saying, hey, I'm not in a room with another woman and no one else.

人们当时嘲笑他，讽刺他。

And people laughed at him and mocked him.

但我当时想到，这其实是基因在使坏。

But I remember thinking about that thinking that's a mean genes move.

他是在说，我们是进化而来的生物，我们的基因正在引导我们追求繁殖成功。

He's saying, hey, we are evolved beings and our genes are nudging us towards reproductive success here or there.

如果你从不处于与另一位女性独处的情境中，你就根本不可能行为不当。

And if you're never in the situation where you are with another woman, then you can't even behave badly.

因此，不需要任何意志力。

So no willpower is required.

所以这是一种对此策略的变通。

So that's a variation on that strategy.

不要把自己置于那种情境中，这样你就永远不必依赖意志力来实现你想要的行为。

Don't put yourself into the situation and then you never have to rely on your willpower to get the behaviors that you want.

所以这听起来并没有那么荒谬。

So it's not as silly as it sounds.

这其实非常重要，因为我认为人们相信自己做出的是有意识的选择，拥有自由意志，而我们确实如此。

Well, this is really important because, you know, I think people believe they make conscious choices and that they have free will, and we do.

但我们也受到另一种力量的推动，有时朝这个方向，有时朝那个方向，正如你所说，有时并不是朝最好的方向。

But we also have this other thing that's nudging us in one direction or another, and sometimes, as you say, not in the best direction.

理解这一点，并了解如何运用策略来防止这种推动变成现实，是非常有价值的。

And understanding that and understanding the strategies to use to prevent that nudging from becoming a reality is really good to know.

杰·菲兰是我今天的嘉宾。

Jay Phelan has been my guest.

他是加州大学洛杉矶分校的进化生物学家，也是《从性到金钱：驯服我们的原始本能》一书的作者。

He is an evolutionary biologist at UCLA and author of the book From Sex to Money to Taming Our Primal Instincts.

谢谢你，杰。

Thanks, Jay.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

你的问题既有趣又引人深思。

Your questions are fun and intriguing.

有求必应。

Ask and ye shall receive.

我们都听过这句话。

We've all heard that.

但我们也常听到类似的说法：我根本不必开口要求。

But we also hear things like, well, I shouldn't have to ask.

我害怕问这个问题。

I'm afraid to ask.

很难开口问，因为我们可能不喜欢答案。

It's hard to ask because we might not like the answer.

但你想想看。

But think about it.

因为没问，你错过了什么？

What have you missed out on by not asking?

你从未争取过的加薪，从未约过的约会，从未申请过的工作。

That raise you never asked for or the date you never asked for or the job you never asked for.

如果你当初问了这些，你的人生今天会有什么不同？

How would your life be different today if you had asked for those things?

当然，你现在永远无从得知了，但也许现在是时候开始提问了。

Of course, you'll never know now, but maybe it's time to start asking.

琳达·巴博克是卡内基梅隆大学的沃尔顿经济学教授，也是《女性不提问》一书的作者。

Linda Babcock is the Walton professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon and author of the book Women Don't Ask.

嗨，琳达。

Hi, Linda.

那么，为什么向别人提出我们想要的东西会这么困难呢？

So why is it that asking for what we want is so tough?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们根本不知道对方会怎么回应。

I think we just don't have an idea about what the other side is gonna say.

提出自己想要的东西进行谈判是有风险的，我认为人们就是不喜欢做这种社会风险高的事，所以他们会回避谈判，因为这种风险让他们感到不安。

It's a risky thing to do to negotiate for what you want, and I think it's just people don't like doing things that are socially risky, and so they avoid negotiation because it makes them uncomfortable because of that risk.

而且，这种恐惧确实是合理的，比如害怕被拒绝，或者害怕别人对你有负面看法，等等。

Well, and that's a legitimate fear, guess, is that fear of being told no or that fear of people feeling ill of you or whatever.

但如果不提出来，会有什么后果呢？

But what are the consequences of not asking?

我们到底知道些什么？

What do we know?

不提要求的后果非常严重，你可以想想最极端的例子，比如不争取自己的薪资。

Well, there are huge consequences to not asking, and and you can think of the most dramatic examples as not asking about, say, your salary.

比如，刚进入职场时如果不争取薪资，可能会让你的职业生涯损失数百万美元，因为你起薪较低。

Not negotiating your salary, for example, when you first start out in the workplace can cost you several million dollars over the course of your career because you're starting at a lower base salary.

因此，谈判带来的收益是非常巨大的。

And so the gains to negotiating are really great.

你也可以想想在工作中可能争取的其他事情。

You can think about the other things that that you may negotiate about, for example, in your workplace.

你可能会争取培训机会、工作时间或你所从事的工作类型。

You might negotiate about training opportunities or your work schedule or what kind of work you're doing.

为这些事情提出要求的好处也同样巨大。

The benefits of asking about those things can be enormous also.

你认为‘你不提，就得不到’这条规则是一个很好的生活准则吗？这确实是世界运行的方式。

Do you think that the rule, if you don't ask, you don't get, is is a pretty good rule to live by, that that is in fact how the world works.

你不提，就得不到。

If you don't ask, you don't get.

我认为这绝对是正确的，你可以在工作场所或个人生活中思考这一点。

I think that's definitely true, and you can think about that in the in the workplace or in your personal life.

大多数事情并不会主动提供给你，因此你必须为此进行协商。

Most things are just not offered to you, and so you do have to negotiate for them.

那么，你会对那些说‘好吧，我明白’的人说什么呢？

So what do you say to the person who says, well, I okay.

我懂了。

I get that.

我理解你说的，但我就是不喜欢那种不舒服的感觉。

I understand what you're saying, but I I don't like that feeling of feeling uncomfortable.

我不喜欢被拒绝的恐惧。

I don't like that fear of being told no.

那你对这样的人会怎么说呢？

So what do you say to those people?

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种真实的恐惧，我不想简单地把它轻描淡写为无关紧要，但作为谈判者，我们确实可以采取一些措施来降低这种风险，缓解焦虑感。

So the it's a it's a real fear, and I don't want to, you know, just say that it's nothing, but there are things that we can do as negotiators to mitigate that risk to reduce those feelings of anxiety.

因此，为谈判做好充分准备至关重要。

And so being really prepared for a negotiation.

如果我们准备充分，就能提前研究对方会如何思考这个问题。

If we're really prepared, we can have done our homework about how the other side is going to think about it.

我们已经准备好了自己的论点。

We've prepared our case.

我们也制定了应对方案。

We have prepared contingencies.

而做好所有这些准备，确实能让谈判进行得更顺利。

And doing all that preparation can really make the negotiation go better.

因此，这实际上降低了风险，也让我们感觉更安心。

So it actually does mitigate that risk and it makes us feel more comfortable.

而且，准备得越充分，这种焦虑感也会越少。

And so that anxiety is also lessened the more we prepare.

通过做什么来准备？

Prepare by doing what?

带上什么去谈判？

Bringing what to the table?

想象一下，你要去买一辆新车。

Well, just think about suppose that you were going to go buy a new car.

每个人都知道，买新车时，你会去谈价格。

Everybody knows that when you buy a new car, you're going to go and you're going to negotiate the price of the car.

每个人也知道，你会事先做功课。

And everybody also knows that you go and do your homework.

你会阅读消费者报告。

You read consumer reports.

你会上网站查看。

You go on the website.

你会搜索这辆车应该值多少钱。

You do searches about how much this car should cost.

而且你会带着充分的信息进去，这能帮助你成为更有效的谈判者。

And you go in really armed with information that's gonna help you be a more effective negotiator.

我认为这就是每个人都会想到的情境：当然，我绝不会在没做这些准备的情况下走进汽车经销商那里。

And I think that's the context in which everyone thinks about, oh, of course, you know, I would never go into a car dealership without having done that.

然而，人们在参与其他类型的谈判时，可能并没有做这些额外的背景调查工作。

And yet, people may enter in a different type of negotiation without having done that additional back ground kind of homework.

这样做真的能帮助你，让你表现得更好。

Doing so will really help you, help you to do better.

我一生中做过一些工作，那里根本不存在谈判空间，因为雇主会说：这份工作就给这么多薪酬。

I've worked at jobs in my life where there is no negotiation only because they the employer will say, well, the job pays x.

这就是这份工作的薪资。

That's what the job pays.

这基本上就终结了讨论。

So that pretty much closes the discussion.

面对这种情况，有什么好的回应方式？

What's a good comeback to that?

如果你已经做了充分的调研，了解了其他公司提供的薪酬水平，就可以这样回应：我理解这是你们的初步报价。

Well, if you again have done your homework in terms of investigating, you know, what other kinds of companies are paying, you can come back as a response to that and say, you know, I understand that that's your opening offer.

你觉得可以把这个数字提高 x 吗？

Do you suppose you could increase it by x amount?

你心里应该有一个预期的数字。

You know, you have a have a number in mind.

他们可能会拒绝，但如果他们拒绝了，也没关系。

And it's possible that they will say no, but if they say no, it's fine.

雇主一方其实期待你进行谈判。

People on the employer side are expecting you to negotiate.

因此，他们通常不会一开始就给出他们愿意支付的最高金额。

And so they typically do not offer you the most they'd be willing to pay.

作为雇主，你会想：我真会把第一次报价定为我愿意支付的最高价吗？

You know, as an employer, you think about that and you think, would I actually make my first offer the absolute most I'm being I'm willing to pay?

当然，答案是否定的。

And, of course, the answer is no.

我会给自己留一些谈判空间。

I would leave myself some negotiating room.

所以实际上，大多数雇主都是这样做的，并且期待你去谈判。

And so, actually, most employers are doing that and expecting you to negotiate.

所以大多数情况下，你知道，尝试一下根本没什么损失。

So most places, you know, there is really no harm to to trying.

我猜很多人会觉得，当你收到工作邀约并得知薪资待遇时，要求加薪似乎不知感恩，可能会让雇主说：嘿。

I bet a lot of people think, though, that in that position, when when you're offered a job and here's what the job pays, that to ask for more seems ungrateful, and that that maybe the employer will say, hey.

看。

Look.

如果这个待遇对你来说不够好，我们会雇别人，而你就把整个机会搞砸了。

If if that's not good enough for you, we'll we'll hire somebody else, and and now you've blown the whole thing.

这取决于你提问的方式。

It depends the way that you ask.

例如，如果雇主给我提供每小时20美元的薪资，而我说：不行。

For example, if an employer offered me a salary, you know, a wage, say, $20 an hour, and I said, nope.

如果你不加薪，我就不去了。

I'm not coming unless you increase it.

当然，如果他们真的无法加薪，他们会说，好吧。

Well, of course, if they can't increase it, they're gonna say, okay.

那我们就找别人吧。

Well, we'll pick somebody else.

但这是因为我的表达方式像是一种要求，而不是问：‘你们能不能把时薪提高到21美元？’

But that's because of the way I kind of made it as a demand rather than is it possible for you to raise the wage to $21 per hour?

那样的话，就是自愿的了。

And then it's it's voluntary.

对方可以说：不行。

The person could say, no.

我做不到，但你仍然可以接受这份工作。

I can't do that, and you could still accept the job.

所以，整个谈判的关键在于你的方式。

So it's all in the way that you go about doing that negotiation.

你觉得女性在做这件事时特别有困难。

You think that, that women in particular have a real problem doing this.

你认为这是为什么呢？

Why do you suppose that is?

是因为文化因素，认为女性是温柔的性别，所以不应该开口要求吗？

Is it just a cultural thing that women are are just, you know, the the fairer sex so that they shouldn't they shouldn't ask?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为女性从小就被教育，不应该为自己争取想要的东西。

I think women are really socialized that they should not be asking for what they want.

她们应该对别人给予的东西心怀感激。

They should be grateful for the things that are offered to them.

我们很多时候都在告诉小女孩们，应该满足于自己所拥有的。

And you know we in so many ways tell our little girls that they should just be happy with what they get.

这些信息可能来自她们看的电视节目、电影，以及她们看到的成年人的行为。

Know these messages can come from the TV shows that they watch, the movies that they see, the behavior that they see in adults.

她们在成长过程中学会了这一点，因此作为女性，我们在要求自己想要的东西时会遇到更多困难，因为我们被社会化地教导不要这样做。

They learn this growing up and then as women we have more difficulties asking for what we want because we have been socialized to not do that.

如果我们真的希望实现职场中的性别平等，就必须改变我们对小女孩的教育方式。

And if we really want equality for women in the workplace, we're going to have to change the way that we start socializing our little girls.

因为如果这一点不改变，我们仍将延续不平等。

Because if that doesn't change, we're still going to be perpetuating inequality.

显然，我们经常听到‘问一问也没什么损失’，但为什么人们还是如此害怕开口呢？

Well, it certainly seems that, I mean, many times have we heard it can't hurt to ask and yet people still are so afraid of asking?

是的。

Yeah.

这仅仅是出于对未知的恐惧。

And that's just the fear of the unknown.

但再仔细想想，如果对方拒绝了，我会怎么做？

But again, the more you kind of think about it, okay, what will I do if the person says no?

要做好心理准备，并想好如何回应。

And be prepared for that and and have something to say.

比如，哦，我知道你做不到这一点。

Like, oh, well, you know, I understand you can't do that.

不过我还是很感激你考虑过这件事。

I appreciate you having considered it, though.

这对我来说意义重大。

That it means a lot to me.

你知道，只要提前准备好几句顺口的话，让自己在那一刻感到自在，那么当对方说‘不’的时候，你就不会那么害怕了——因为我知道，就算被拒绝也没关系。

You know, just having a couple things that can just roll off your tongue that you're gonna feel comfortable with them in the moment then makes the prospect of that no a lot less scary if I know, hey, it's gonna be fine if the person says no.

但这难道不是很有趣吗？

Isn't it fascinating though?

因为我觉得人们未必会想到，每次你坐下来和老板谈工作，或者谈入职时对方给出一个数字，其实都是有谈判空间的，他们本来就是期待你去谈判的，而因为人们不去谈，白白错过了多少金钱利益啊。

Because I don't think people would necessarily think that every time you sit down and talk to your boss about or talk about getting a job and they quote you a number, that there is room to negotiate, that they're expecting you to negotiate, and how much money gets left on the table because people don't.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是一笔巨大的损失。

It's a it's a tremendous amount for sure.

这就是为什么，投资一些技能来成为更好的谈判者，是非常值得的。

And that's why, you know, investing in some skills to become a better negotiator, can be well worth it.

这并不是什么高深的科学。

It's not rocket science.

这并不难。

It is not hard.

你只需要花一些时间和精力，任何人都能成为优秀的谈判者。

You just have to put some time and effort into it, and anyone can become a good negotiator.

嗯，我们认为这是高深的科学，是因为你听到的谈判都是关于大型政治谈判或劳资谈判，那些都是专业谈判者，所以听起来很难，也许这正是问题的一部分——实际情况并没有人们想的那么难。

Well, think we think it's rocket science because you hear about negotiations and, you know, big political negotiations or or labor negotiations, and and these are professional negotiators, and it so it does sound hard, and and maybe that's part of the problem that it's it's not as hard as people think it is.

不对。

No.

我觉得你说得对。

I think that's right.

我认为谈判真正棒的地方在于，你用来和伴侣谈判的技巧，基本上和与同事或雇主谈判、甚至与朝鲜人谈判时用的是一样的。

And, what's so so good about negotiation, I think, is that you use basically the same skills to negotiate with your partner that you would use to negotiate with a colleague or an employer that you would use to negotiate with the North Koreans.

你知道，这其实是一套基本的原则和技巧，你只是根据不同的情况稍作调整，但这些核心概念在所有类型的谈判中都适用。

You know, that it it really is a set of basic principles and skills that, you know, you tweak a little bit from situation to situation, but the same concepts are applicable in all these different kinds of negotiations.

所以，并不是说你必须学习一套特定的技巧才能在某种谈判中有效，这些技巧并不能相互割裂。

And so it isn't that you have to learn a certain set of skills to be effective in one kind of negotiation, it doesn't translate.

这些技能在你可能参与的所有谈判领域中都很容易迁移和应用。

The skills are easily transferable across all kinds of domains in in which you might negotiate.

你能告诉我，也告诉所有听众，这些技巧具体包括哪些吗？

And can you tell me and and everyone listening what some of those skills are?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

我已经提到过第一个，那就是准备。

You know, the first I've talked about already is preparation.

要深入思考你想要什么，也要深入思考对方会如何看待这个局面，因为最优秀的谈判者，是那些真正能站在对方角度思考、预判他们担忧的问题、顾虑以及他们能做和不能做的事的人。

Thinking a lot about what you want, thinking a lot about how the other side is going to see the situation because, of course, the best negotiators are the ones that can really get inside the head of the other person and anticipate the issues that they're gonna be worried about, the concerns that they have, the things that they can and cannot do.

所以，在进行谈判之前，花时间认真思考这些方面。

And so, you know, taking time to really think about that before you do the negotiation.

你知道的，练习谈判。

You know, practicing a negotiation.

所以如果我要进行一场重要的谈判，我会找一个朋友来扮演对方。

So if I'm gonna do an important negotiation, I I will recruit a friend to play the other side.

我们会实际进行一场谈判的角色扮演。

And we'll actually do a role play of the negotiation.

这非常有用，因为我可以从对方那里获得关于谈判表现的反馈。

And that's really useful because I can get feedback from the other person on how it went.

我可以尝试几次，用不同的方式来应对。

I can try it a few different times to, you know, try out some different ways of of approaching it.

这种练习能让我在真正谈判时更有信心。

And that practice can give me a lot of confidence then going into the real negotiation.

因此，进行角色扮演练习能显著提升你在谈判中的表现。

And so doing that role play practice can really help you to be more effective than in the negotiation.

你知道的，这很大程度上就是做好准备工作。

And, you know, it's just a lot about doing your homework.