凌乱的好处与你一定会用到的家务妙招

今天在《你该知道的事》节目中，你知道感冒了该怎么办，对吧？

Today on Something You Should Know, you know what to do when you get a cold, right?

不过，可能不是所有事情都知道。

Well, maybe not everything.

我有一些让你感觉好些的方法，你可能还没听说过。

I've got a few ways to feel better you probably haven't heard.

保持整洁有序似乎更好，但有时候杂乱无章反而更有效。

Then being neat and tidy may seem the better way to go, but sometimes messiness is even better.

正如我所说，我是个爱整洁的人。

As I said, I'm a tidy person.

我喜欢东西井井有条。

I like things tidy.

只要可能，我就喜欢把事情安排得有条理。

I like things organized when they can be.

但很多时候，事情根本没法安排得那么整齐。

But very often, they can't be.

如果我们能接受这种无序，实际上会发现它反而对我们有利。

And if we can embrace that disorder, we can actually find it turning to our advantage.

那你有没有想过，为什么每次哭的时候都会流鼻涕？

Then have you ever wondered why you get a runny nose every time you cry?

我来解释一下。

I'll explain.

还有一些我敢肯定你会喜欢的家居小妙招。

And some great household hacks I know you'll love.

哦，这个很有趣。

Oh, this is a fun one.

如果你家的玻璃淋浴门上有难看的肥皂垢，可以用一张干衣纸来擦拭玻璃门。

If you have the glass shower doors that get the nasty soap scum buildup, a dryer sheet can be used to scrub those glass shower doors.

效果非常好。

It works like a charm.

所有这些内容，今天都在《你应该知道的事》。

All this today on something you should know.

你应当知道的内容、引人入胜的资讯、全球顶尖专家的见解，以及你可以在生活中实际运用的实用建议。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

今天，由迈克·卡鲁瑟斯为您带来你应当知道的内容。

Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

不确定你们那边是不是这样，但在我这里，好像每个人现在都感冒了。

Not sure if this is, true where you live, but where I live, it seems like everybody has a cold right now.

我现在正感冒着，而且接连得了两次感冒，这以前从没发生过。

I I have a cold right now, and I've had two colds right in a row, which I've never had before.

我十一月、十二月初得过一次。

I had one at the November, early December.

它来了又走了，然后我又得了另一次。

It came, it went, and then I got another one.

所以，如果你感冒了，你并不孤单。WebMD 提供了一些你可能没听过的感冒应对方法，这些方法在找到治愈方案之前真的很有帮助。

So, if you have a cold, you have plenty of good company, And WebMD has some things you should do when you have a cold that you might not have heard before, that can really help until somebody comes up with a cure.

首先是使用那种鼻贴，就是那种 Breathe Right 鼻贴，你会惊讶于它们能多有效地打开你的鼻腔，让你呼吸更顺畅。

First is to use one of those nasal strips, you know, those Breathe Right nasal strips, you will be amazed how they can open up your nose so you can breathe.

另外，睡前洗个热水澡，因为蒸汽和湿度有助于疏通鼻窦。

Also, take a hot shower before you go to bed because the steam and the humidity will help clear out your sinuses.

我相信你一定听说过鸡汤有益健康。

I'm sure you've heard that chicken soup is good.

研究表明，喝热鸡汤比喝热开水更能有效疏通鼻窦，尽管没人真正知道为什么。

Research shows that eating hot chicken soup is more effective than sipping hot water to clear out your sinuses, although nobody really knows why.

接下来是你可能不知道的：睡前应避免喝冷饮。

Here's what I bet you don't know, you should avoid cold drinks before bed.

因为冷饮会加重鼻塞。

Because cold drinks can increase stuffiness.

使用生理盐水冲洗鼻腔来清理鼻子，比如用洗鼻壶之类的工具。

Use a saline nasal rinse to clear out your nose, you know, like a neti pot or something.

在过去的几年里，我感冒时开始使用这些工具，它们确实非常有效。

I've gotten into using those when I've had a cold in the last few years and they really are effective.

另外，要小心使用非处方鼻喷剂。

Also be careful of over the counter nasal sprays.

它们会有反跳效应。

They have a rebound effect.

如果你使用过多，实际上可能会对它们上瘾。

And if you use them too much, you can actually get addicted to them.

很多年前我就亲身经历过。

And it actually happened to me many years ago.

我曾经是个鼻腔喷雾成瘾者，戒掉很难。

I was a nasal spray addict, and it was hard to kick.

最后，不要用枕头垫高头部，因为这会导致颈部不自然弯曲，使呼吸更困难。

And finally, don't prop your head up with pillows because that causes an unnatural bend in the neck, and it makes it harder to breathe.

最好使用楔形枕头，从腰部以上抬高身体。

It's better to use a wedge shaped pillow that elevates you from the waist up.

这些都是你应该知道的事情。

And that is something you should know.

问问任何人，是整洁好还是凌乱好。

Ask anybody which is better, to be neat or to be messy.

我猜大多数人会说整洁更好。

And my guess is most people will say it is better to be neat.

在我们的文化中，整洁很重要。

Neatness counts in our culture.

整洁的家、整洁的书桌、整洁的房间都更受青睐。

A neat house, a neat desk, a neat room are all preferred.

当人们杂乱无章时，常常会被劝告要更整洁一些。

When people are messy, they're often admonished to be neater.

但当人们整洁时，却从来没有人会说，你知道吗，你应该更乱一点。

But when people are neat, no one ever says, you know, you should be more messy.

但对某些人和某些情况来说，杂乱无章会不会更好呢？

But could messiness be better for some people and in some situations?

你能为杂乱无章辩护吗？

Can you make the case for messiness?

事实上，也许出人意料的是，可以。

Actually, and perhaps surprisingly, yes.

接下来，为我们阐述这一观点的是蒂姆·哈福德。

And here to make that case is Tim Harford.

蒂姆是一位获奖记者、经济学家，著有包括《混乱的力量：改变我们的生活》在内的多部著作。

Tim is an award winning journalist, economist, and author of quite a few books, including The Power of Disorder to Transform Our Lives.

嘿，蒂姆，欢迎你。

Hey, Tim, welcome.

能和你在一起真是太好了。

It's great to be with you.

这是我对混乱的看法。

So here's my take on messiness.

因为多年来，我在主持的广播节目中多次听到人们讨论这个话题。

Because I've heard people talk about this subject on this program in radio show I did for many years.

我听到了双方的观点。

And I've heard both sides of the argument.

根据我的观察，这似乎归结为：整洁的人认为整洁更好，而混乱的人则认为混乱更好。

And it seems to come down from my observation to this, that neat people think neat is better, and messy people think messy is better.

只要有效，就是好的。

And that whatever works, works.

这真的只是个人偏好。

It's really it's personal preference.

我觉得这很公平。

Think that's fair.

不过，我在写这本书的过程中学到的一点是，混乱在某些情况下也同样有效。

Although, I think something I've learned while writing the book is that messy also works in certain situations.

我应该承认，我违背了你的基本模式。

And I I should admit, I I violate your basic pattern.

我是个爱整洁的人，却写了一本书，试图说服大家多一些混乱。

I am a tidy person who has written a book trying to persuade us to be more messy.

比如，我的厨房基本上总是很整洁，或者在有三个孩子的情况下尽可能整洁。

For example, my kitchen is pretty much always tidy or as tidy as it can be with three children in the house.

但我的书桌，有时整洁，但经常变得杂乱。

But my study desk, sometimes it's tidy, but often it gets messy.

然后我在这方面有些挣扎，试着整理它，但它就是整理不好。

Then I kind of struggle with that and I try and tidy it up and it won't be tidied up.

我一直在问自己：到底发生了什么？

Been asking myself, well, what's going on?

我逐渐意识到，不同的情况需要不同的方法。

And I've come to realize that a different approach works for different situations.

比如厨房，每样东西都有固定的位置。

And the thing about the kitchen, for example, is everything has a place.

如果我想保持整洁，刀具有刀具的位置，玻璃器皿有玻璃器皿的位置，餐具也有餐具的位置。

And if I want to be tidy, there's a place for the knives, there's a place for the glassware, there's a place for the cutlery.

我可以把所有东西都收好，我经常这么做，但书桌就没这么简单了。

I can put everything away and I often do, but it's not so simple with the desk.

我的意思是，是的，我当然可以为胶带和笔安排固定的位置。

I mean, yeah, sure, I can have a place for sticky tape and I can have a place for the pens.

但那封最新的信件呢？那些你现在不想看但 later 需要处理的邮件，它们该放哪儿？

But what's the place for the latest letter, the emails you don't wanna read right now, but you need to deal with them later.

而桌子的特点就在于它一直在变化。

And the thing about the desk is it's in constant motion.

对。

Right.

如果你试图整理它，反而可能产生适得其反的效果。

And if you try to tidy it up, that can actually have counterproductive effects.

嗯，

Well,

你和我非常相似，因为那些容易保持整洁的东西通常都会被保持得井井有条。

you and I are very much alike because things that are easy to keep neat are kept neat.

但正如你所说，生活并不总是像那个厨房一样井然有序。

But as you say, you know, life isn't always so neat as that kitchen.

所以我平时挺整洁的，但我的书桌也经常很乱。

So, I'm pretty neat, but then I also have a messy desk often as well.

不过，我还是更希望东西都能保持整洁。

So, but my preference would be that things were neat.

但这并不总是现实。

It's just not always the reality.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，你、我，还有本杰明·富兰克林都是这样。

Well, you and me and Benjamin Franklin as well.

我的意思是，本杰明·富兰克林正是这个观点的绝佳例子。

I mean, Benjamin Franklin is a wonderful example of this.

这个人根本不需要介绍。

So the man needs no introduction.

对吧？

Right?

他是有史以来最伟大的美国人之一。

One of the greatest Americans who ever lived.

你可能知道，他有一个叫‘美德日记’的东西。

And you may be aware that he had this thing called his virtue journal.

我的意思是，我觉得这很符合你的风格，自我提升。

I mean, I think it's your kind of thing, self improvement.

本杰明·富兰克林年轻时决定要从各个方面提升自己。

Benjamin Franklin, as a young man decided he was going to just make himself better in every way.

他打算少喝酒、少调情，变得更加谦逊，还有其他许多他打算做的改善生活的事情。

He was going to drink less and he was going to flirt less and he was going to be more humble and all of these different things he was gonna do to improve his life.

他每天都会记录自己是否践行了原则，每周也会回顾自己是否做到了。

And he kept a track of every day had he lived up to his principles every week, had he lived up to his principles?

在他晚年，我认为他八十多岁时，回望这段经历，他对自己的美德日记感到非常自豪。

And reflecting back on this at the end of his life, I think he's in his eighties, if I remember rightly, he's very proud of this virtue journal.

他认为这真的非常有效，但他也说，有一件事他始终无法克服。

He thinks it's worked really well, but he says, you know, there's one thing that I could just never conquer.

我始终无法掌控它。

I could never get on top of this.

那就是条理性。

And that was orderliness.

他的原则是，每个预约都必须放在日记的正确位置。

His principle was every appointment should go in the right place in the diary.

所有东西都应该放在书房的正确位置，但他就是无法克服这一点。

Everything should go in the right place in the study, and he could just never conquer it.

如果他能整理好，谁知道他本可以取得怎样的成就呢。

And and who knows what he might have been able to achieve if he'd managed to tidy up.

是的。

Yeah.

我也想过同样的事。

I've thought the same thing.

比如，当我整理账单时，比如我支付了汽车保险费，那这笔账该归到汽车类还是保险类呢？

Like, you know, when I'm filing bills, for example, and I pay the auto insurance bill, well, does that get filed under auto or does that get filed under insurance?

所以生活并不总是那么清晰有序。

So life isn't always so neat and obvious.

确实就是这样，太疯狂了。

It is really crazy like that.

所以有时候你整理东西，这来自我的老板。

So sometimes you organize things, well, this comes from my boss.

这来自我的配偶。

This comes from my spouse.

其他时候则是，这真的非常紧急。

Other times it's, well, this is really urgent.

还有些时候是，哦，这种事我想以后提醒自己。

Now, other times is, oh, this is the kind of thing I want to be reminded of later.

实际上，整理这些东西没有对错之分。

And actually there's no right or wrong way to organise any of this stuff.

但如果我们试图把一切都整理好，往往反而适得其反。

But if we try to get it organised, it can often be self defeating.

我在写这本书时最喜欢的一个概念是‘过早归档’，这个概念是一位名叫史蒂夫·惠塔克的心理学家告诉我的，他研究的是我们整理东西的方式——比如数字照片、电子邮件，还有桌面的整理方式。

One the concepts I loved while working on this book was the concept of premature filing, which I was told about by a psychologist called Steve Whittaker, who studies basically the way we organise stuff, the way we organise digital photos, the way we organise email, the way we organise our desks.

而过早归档是一个非常棒的理念。

And premature filing is a beautiful idea.

所以这个想法是，有些人因为想要保持整洁，什么东西一进入他们的生活。

So this is the idea that you some people, because they want to be tidy, something comes into their life.

这是一封信。

It's a letter.

这是一封邮件。

It's an email.

这是一项任务。

It's a task.

这是一本书。

It's a book.

他们希望它离开他们的桌面。

And they want it off their desk.

于是他们把它放到了某个地方。

And so they put it somewhere.

他们创建了一个数字文件夹，把它放进数字文件夹里，或者放在邮件文件夹里，或者放在实体文件夹里，又或者收起来放到架子上某个地方。

They create a digital folder and they put it in the digital folder or it's an email folder or it's physical folder or they put it away on a shelf somewhere.

但他们其实并不清楚这东西到底是什么，或者打算怎么处理它，是会发展成大事的开端，还只是垃圾。

But they haven't really understood what it is really or what they're going to do with it, whether it's the beginning of something big or whether it's just junk.

这些事情一开始很难判断。

And these things are hard to understand initially.

因此，归档往往发生得太早。

And as a result, the filing takes place too early.

然后你就给它贴了标签，或者把它放进文件夹里，结果你反而记不清它在哪，也得不到提醒。

And then you've you've basically put a label on something or you've put it in the file, then you don't know where it is and you're not reminded of it.

整个事情很快就会变得一团糟。

And the whole thing just gets really quite gnarly quite quickly.

另一方面，如果你没那么在意整洁，没那么焦虑，只是让邮件留在原地，或者把纸张堆在桌上，过一段时间，你就能慢慢弄清楚自己到底需要怎么处理它，是否真的需要归档，或者干脆把它扔进桌下的大垃圾桶里。

On the other hand, if you're a little bit less concerned, a little bit less stressed about being tidy and you just leave the emails hanging around for a bit or you you pile up the paper on your desk, give it a little while, and you start to figure out what you actually do need to do with it and whether it needs to be filed at all or whether you can just file it in the the big round filing cabinet underneath your desk, the trash can.

因此，那些更能容忍些许杂乱的人，最终反而往往更有序、更高效。

And and so people who are willing to tolerate a little bit more mess actually in the end end up paradoxically often being better organised and more effective.

他们的档案更少。

They have smaller archives.

他们知道自己的东西在哪里。

They know where their stuff is.

他们能更快地做出决定。

They make decisions more quickly.

这是一个非常有趣的观点，因为惠特克并不是从某种伟大的哲学传统出发来研究这个问题的。

And this was a really interesting point because Whittaker wasn't approaching this from some great philosophical tradition.

他只是说，我只是仔细观察人们实际在做什么，以及会产生什么影响，而过早归档确实是个大问题。

He was just saying, well, I I just carefully look at what people do and what the effects are, and premature filing is is a real problem.

我正在与蒂姆·哈福德交谈。

I'm speaking with Tim Harford.

他是一名记者、经济学家，也是《混乱的力量：重塑我们的生活》一书的作者。

He is a journalist, economist, and author of the book, The Power of Disorder to Transform Our Lives.

当你遇到一家没有网站的公司时，你那种反应你知道吗？

You know that reaction you get when you come across a business that doesn't have a website?

你会觉得这很奇怪，因为如今每家公司都需要一个网站。

You think, that's weird because every business needs a website today.

更重要的是，每个企业都需要一个出色的网站。

More importantly, every business needs a great website.

因此，我对Squarespace成为你必须了解的项目的赞助商感到非常兴奋。

And that's why I'm so excited that Squarespace is now a sponsor of something you should know.

如果你需要一个网站，或者更好的网站，你真的应该去看看Squarespace。

If you need a website or a better website, you really need to check out Squarespace.

你可以快速轻松地创建一个精美的网站。

You will create a beautiful website quickly and easily.

他们提供了由世界级设计师打造的精美模板。

They've got beautiful templates created by world class designers.

此外，你还能获得所有在线销售产品和创作所需的工具。

Plus you get all the tools you need to sell your products and creations online.

还能自定义一切：外观、风格和设置。

Plus the ability to customize everything, the look, the feel, the settings.

你只需点击几下就能完成所有这些操作。

You can do all of that with just a few clicks.

他们的2024年获奖客户服务也非常出色。

And their 20 fourseven award winning customer service is superb.

说实话，我觉得我拥有最棒的Squarespace使用案例之一，因为我们用Squarespace为我们正在制作的一档新播客创建了网站。

I think frankly, I have one of the best Squarespace stories there is because we use Squarespace to create a website for an upcoming podcast we're working on.

我们原本打算花几周时间来制作这个网站。

And we were prepared to work on this for weeks.

结果它真的很快就完成了。

And it was literally done.

整个网站在几个小时内就搞定了。

The whole website done in a few hours.

前往 squarespace.com 申请免费试用。

Head over to squarespace.com for a free trial.

当你准备上线时，使用优惠码 something，即可在首次购买网站或域名时享受10%折扣。

And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code something to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain.

访问 squarespace.com 并使用优惠码 something。

That's squarespace.com and use the offer code something.

属于摄政时期。

Of the Regency era.

你可能知道这是《布里奇顿》的故事背景，或者简·奥斯汀写作小说的时代。

You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, or as the time when Jane Austen wrote her books.

摄政时期也是一个社会剧变、性丑闻频发，或许还是英国历史上最糟糕国王的时代。

The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history.

《粗俗历史》的新一季将聚焦摄政时期，包括舞会、礼服和所有丑闻。

Vulgar history's new season is all about the regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal.

在你收听播客的任何平台收听《粗俗历史》之摄政时期。

Listen to Vulgar History Regency era wherever you get podcasts.

当他们年轻时，一个名为“石狼”的精英突击小组五名成员曾反抗占据并主宰银河系大多数宜居星球的陨石帝国的压迫统治。

When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the stone wolves raged against the oppressive rule of the Crateroccan Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets.

狼群为自由而战，但最终失败，留下无数尸体。

The wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake.

战败且心灰意冷，他们放下武器，各奔东西，都希望在充满暴力与压迫的宇宙中寻得一丝宁静。

Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression.

在他们巅峰时期的四十年后，他们各自努力求生，勉强维持生计，但一位旧友不会让他们放手，他们最深的敌人也不会。

Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living, but a friend from the past won't let them move on, and neither will their bitterest enemy.

《石狼》是斯科特·西格勒创作的银河足球联盟科幻系列的第十一季。

The stone wolves is season eleven of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler.

你可以将它作为独立故事欣赏，也可以从第一季《新人》开始，完整收听整个银河足球联盟系列。

Enjoy it as a stand alone story or listen to the entire GFL series beginning with season one, the rookie.

在你收听播客的任何平台搜索斯科特·西格勒，拼写为 S I G L E R。

Search for Scott Sigler, s I g l e r, wherever you get your podcasts.

所以，蒂姆，你刚才提到提前归档可能会有问题，因为你最终把东西存到了并不该放的地方。

So, Tim, you were talking a moment ago about premature filing and that that can be a problem because you end up filing something away where it ultimately doesn't belong.

是的，好吧，也许这对爱乱的人是个问题。

And yeah, okay, maybe that's a problem for messy people.

但我认为，对整洁的人来说这未必是问题，他们或许会提前把东西放好，但他们清楚地知道东西在哪，一旦需要取用或移动，他们就能立刻处理。

But I would contend that maybe that's not such a problem for neat people, that neat people put things in a place perhaps prematurely, but they know right where it is and if it's time to get it and move it, that they get it and move it.

而不该因为等确定最终该放哪，就不把东西归位。

And to not put things in their place because you're waiting to figure out where it ultimately goes.

所以，只是把它随便扔在桌面上，会让人感到很大的压力和焦虑。

So to just leave it laying on the desk somewhere causes those people a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety.

因此，提前归档完全没有问题。

And so therefore, premature filing is just fine.

我认为最重要的观点是，世界本身就是混乱的。

I think the most important point is that the world is messy.

我们的生活是混乱的。

Our lives are messy.

对话是混乱的。

Conversations are messy.

我们的关系是混乱的。

Our relationships are messy.

创造力是混乱的。

Creativity is messy.

总之，我们处处都身处无序之中。

Basically, we are surrounded by disorderliness everywhere.

而我说的‘混乱’，指的是那些无法被预设、无法轻易归类、不断堆积、模糊不清、临时拼凑起来的东西。

And and by by mess, I mean stuff that can't be scripted, stuff that can't easily be put into categories, stuff that piles up, stuff that's ambiguous, stuff that gets made up on the spot.

‘混乱’这个词有多种不同的含义。

Mean, the word means a lot of different things.

但由于我们的生活常常是混乱的，所以我们需要接纳它、应对它、正视它，并尽量从中获益。

But because our lives effectively are often very messy, we need to embrace that, deal with it, face up to it and try to make the most out of it.

当我们试图在不适合的情况下强加秩序和整洁时，我们只是在掩盖混乱，或者以非常低效的方式处理它。

And when we try to impose structure and tidiness in a situation where it doesn't fit, we just end up hiding the mess or dealing with the mess in a very counterproductive way.

正如我在我们对话开始时所说的，我是个爱整洁的人。

Now, I mean, as I said at the beginning of our conversation, I'm a tidy person.

我喜欢东西整齐有序。

I like things tidy.

我喜欢在可能的情况下把事情安排得井井有条。

I like things organized when they can be.

有时候确实可以做到，那再好不过了。

And sometimes they can be, and that's great.

但很多时候，它们就是无法被整理。

But very often they can't be.

如果我们能接受这种无序，反而可能发现它能为我们所用。

And if we can embrace that disorder, we can actually find it turning to our advantage.

让我给你举几个快速的例子，我很乐意之后详细讨论。

Let me give you a couple of very quick examples, which I'm happy to talk about at more length.

所以我书里开头举的例子是杰出的爵士音乐家基思·贾雷特，他赶到一场音乐会时发现——那是他人生中最重要的演出。

So the example I begin the book with is the amazing jazz musician, Keith Jarrett, who shows up at a concert to discover and it's the biggest concert of his life.

他发现出了差错，本该使用的钢琴根本没法正常演奏。

And he discovers that there's been a mix up and the piano he's supposed to be playing doesn't really work.

有些琴键走音，有些声音难听，有些按键卡住，踏板也不灵了。

Were bits of it are out of tune, bits of it sound bad, bits of it are sticking, the pedals aren't really working.

尽管他根本不想弹，但他最终还是演奏了，并创作出他最出色的作品之一，也是他商业上最成功的录音，因为他最终接纳了这种混乱。

And he ends up playing, even though he doesn't really want to play, and producing one of his best pieces of music and certainly his most commercially successful recording because in the end, he embraces the disorder.

关于为什么这种混乱对他有效，我们其实可以探讨很多有趣的地方。

There are interesting things we could say about why the disorder worked for him.

另一个例子，我知道很多人对这个例子会有强烈的情绪，那就是唐纳德·特朗普。

And another example, mean, people are going to have very strong feelings about this example, is Donald Trump.

我的意思是，当我写这本书的时候，他还只是个候选人。

I mean, Trump and when I wrote the book, he was just a candidate.

他还没有成为总统。

He wasn't the president.

但我把他的竞选活动描述为一种有意制造大量混乱的策略，以此来主导媒体议程，并打乱对手的阵脚，比如马尔科·卢比奥、杰布·布什这些人。

But I wrote about his campaign as being one where he was able to create a lot of chaos deliberately as a strategy to dominate the media cycle and to wrong foot his opponents, people like Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush.

他成功地利用混乱来赢得这场注意力的争夺战。

He was able to use mess as a way of winning, this battle for attention.

因此，混乱有多种方式可以变得有效。

So lots of different ways in which mess can be made effective.

我很久以前听过一个例子，让我印象深刻。

Here's an example that I heard a long time ago that struck me.

这和你刚才提到的有些不同，那是一位法医医生。

It's a little different than the ones you just mentioned, but it was a doctor who was a medical examiner.

他写了一本书，探讨我们为何会死亡。

And he wrote a book about why we die.

他说，关于有尊严地死亡以及试图将死亡净化的整个观念，其实死亡本身就是一团混乱。

And he said that this whole idea of death with dignity and trying to sanitize death, death is messy business.

在过去，人们会在家中离世，孙辈们会看到爷爷在沙发上死去，那场面混乱而可怕，但却是生活的一部分。

And, you know, in the old days, people would die at home and the grandkids would see grandpa die on the couch and it was messy and horrible, but it was part of life.

而今天，我们把这一切都清理干净了。

And today we've cleaned it up.

我们试图营造一种有尊严的死亡，让它变得整洁完美，但事实并非如此。

We've tried to create this death with dignity and make it all clean and pristine, and it isn't.

它永远也不会变得整洁。

And it never will be.

死亡是丑陋而混乱的事。

Death is ugly, messy business.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是个非常明智的评论。

I think that's a very wise comment.

我不希望把混乱和无序到处美化。

I don't want to glorify mess and disorder everywhere.

我的意思是，比如我们的电脑操作系统能够相互兼容，这非常好，对吧？

I mean, it's great, for example, that our computer operating systems are compatible with each other, right?

而且你能把插头插进墙上的插座，电压正好合适，插头能完美匹配，而不是随便用几根电线临时拼凑，这也很棒。

And it's great that you can plug a plug into a wall socket and it's got the right voltage and it's gonna fit and it's not just a couple of pieces of wire just improvised.

我的意思是，有很多例子表明结构有效、秩序有效、整洁有效。

I mean, there are certain there are many, many examples where structure works and where order works and where tidiness works.

但我所要表达的观点是，我不需要说服任何人这些事物是好的，但我确实需要努力让人们明白，有时他们需要放手，有时他们需要拥抱那些更模糊、更不可预测、更无序的情境。

But the argument I make is that I don't need to convince anybody that that stuff's good, but I do need to try to convince people that sometimes they need to let go and sometimes they need to embrace these more ambiguous or more unpredictable, more disorderly situations.

那么，当这一切尘埃落定后，你认为这里的建议是什么？

So what is the When the dust settles from all this, what is the advice here do you think?

因为确实有这样的人，我的意思是，我已经表达过，我觉得自己某种程度上和你类似。

Because there are those people, I mean, I've already expressed that I think I'm somewhat like you.

我喜欢整洁，但生活并不总是整洁的。

I like it neat, but life isn't always neat.

所以，有时候事情会变得混乱。

So, sometimes things get messy.

但你知道，我经常在这个工作室做这个节目，当环境被打扫得井井有条时，我的工作表现更好。

But, you know, I'm in this studio a lot doing this program when it's cleaned up and neat, I do better work.

我确实如此，但要一直保持整洁并不容易。

I just do, but it isn't always easy to get it always neat.

所以，似乎有些人工作得更好，而我们也听过其他说法，比如当环境杂乱时，焦虑和压力水平会上升，而当环境整洁时，压力水平会下降，人们还会减肥。

So, it seems that some people seem to do better work and then we've heard other stories about, you know, that when things are messy, anxiety and stress levels go up and that when things are neat that, you know, stress levels go down, people lose weight.

所以，这里有很多相互矛盾的观点，不同的想法在交锋。

So, there's a lot of conflicting and there's different ideas going on here.

那么，你对这一切怎么看？

So where do you come on all

怎么说？

of that?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

换句话说，这在某些方面是一个混乱的想法。

Mean, you could say in some ways it's a messy idea.

这是一本杂乱的书。

It's a messy book.

在我给你实用建议之前，我应该说，不过这里有一个有趣的因果问题，因为你提到，当你整理干净时，压力会降低，你似乎能完成更多事情。

Should before I give you the practical advice, I should say, by the way, there is an interesting causal question though, because you're saying, oh, you know, when you tidy up, stress levels go down, you seem to get more done.

嗯，也许吧。

Well, yeah, maybe.

但也许另一种观点是，当你在完成事情且压力较低时，才是你有时间整理的时刻。

But maybe the alternative view of that is when you're getting stuff done and your stress levels are low, that's the moment when you get to tidy up.

当你非常忙碌、一切陷入混乱、压力骤增时，也正是你没时间整理、事情开始变得杂乱的时刻。

When you're really busy, when everything's going crazy and you start to get really stressed, that's also the moment when you can't spare the time to tidy up and things start to get messy.

我经常发现，当我能整理好时，我会感到非常平静。

I often find to myself that when I'm able to tidy up, I feel very calm.

但那通常是因为没什么大事发生。

But that's usually because nothing's really going on.

我没有重要的事情要做，所以才有时间整理。

I don't have anything important to do and that's why I've got the time to tidy up.

所以，我们需要小心区分因果关系。

So, you know, we need to be careful about what's causing what.

也许吧。

Maybe.

但我觉得，当东西整齐有序时，我确实会感到压力更小。

But but but I think but I do think that that when things are neat, I I do feel less stress.

东西都收好了，就意味着我不必再做这些事了，事情也就没那么让人焦虑了。

When things are put away, it means that's something I don't have to do and things are less stressful.

但我明白你的意思，也许是因为我有空闲时间，没什么紧迫的事情，所以才不觉得有压力。

But I hear what you're saying that maybe it's maybe it's less stressful because I've got the time and there's nothing really pressing.

当然。

Sure.

那么，实际的建议是什么？

So so what's the practical advice?

如果我们只是讨论如何完成事情，我的建议是多即兴发挥，少依赖脚本。

If we're talking about just trying to get things done, my advice would be to improvise more, to rely less on the script.

书中有一章讲到马丁·路德·金，他在因时间紧迫而不得不放弃脚本的那一刻，反而更能传达信息、表达观点。

There's a chapter in the book about Martin Luther King and how much more he was able to communicate and get his points across just at the moment where he was forced to step away from the script for want of time.

当民权运动的压力如此之大，他的职责如此繁重时，他已经无法再提前撰写演讲稿了。

When the press of the civil rights movement was so great, his duties were so great, he was no longer able to script his speeches.

但他的演讲反而变得更好了。

They got better.

所以，试着即兴发挥，现场发挥，看看会发生什么。

So trying to improvise, make stuff up on the fly, see what happens.

如果建议只是：你该怎么处理你的日记？

And if the advice is simply, what do you do with your diary?

你如何处理你的待办事项清单？

What do you do with your to do list?

你如何处理你的桌子？

What do do with your desk?

对自己宽容一点。

Go easy on yourself.

对自己宽厚一些。

Be forgiving of yourself.

试图建立一些结构是没问题的。

It's fine to try to get some structure.

我喜欢生活中有条理。

I like structure in my life.

但你必须认识到，有些事情很难被结构化。

But you have to recognise there are certain things that can't be structured easily.

这就是本杰明·富兰克林的问题。

And this is Benjamin Franklin's problem.

他花了六十年时间因为无法整理好自己而苛责自己。

Like he was beating himself up for sixty years about not being able to tidy up.

原谅自己。

Forgive yourself.

承认电子邮件、待办事项清单、桌面这些问题永远都无法彻底解决。

Acknowledge that the email, to do lists, desks, this is always going to be an unsolved problem.

这永远都是一个持续改进的过程，你总是需要尝试不同的方法，不要像本杰明·富兰克林那样，一看到杂乱就开始过分自责。

It is always going to be a work in progress, and you're always gonna have to explore different approaches and and not be too down on yourself as Benjamin Franklin was when actually the mess starts to build up.

最后一个问题是。

Last question.

但什么时候才算太乱了呢？

But when is messy too messy?

到底乱到什么程度才算太糟糕？

When when does it get too too bad?

我们都见过那种桌面，东西到处都是。

And we've all seen pictures of those kind of desks where just everything is everywhere.

在某个时候，它必须变得功能失调。

At some point, it has to come become dysfunctional.

我认为这是对的。

I think that's right.

你确实会看到非常功能失调的空间。

You do see incredibly dysfunctional spaces.

我想说的是，大多数人倾向于过度整理。

What I would say is most people on the side of trying to tidy up too much.

我鼓励人们稍微放松一点，对收件箱、数字文件和桌面允许稍微凌乱一些，看看这样是否适合你。

And I would encourage people to just let go a little bit, be a little bit more messy with your inbox, with your digital files, with your desk, and see how that works for you.

所以，保持简单。

So keep it simple.

这才是应对源源不断、令人困惑的信息的方法。

That is the way that you're going to deal with constant influx of of confusing information.

如果你试图过度组织、过度结构化、过早或过度整理，而这种方式对你有效，那很好。

If you try to over organize, over structure, tidy too much, tidy too soon, if it works for you, great.

但大多数人发现，他们的系统在压力下会崩溃，从而感到沮丧。

But most people find their systems just break down under the strain and they get frustrated.

听到这些真好，因为我觉得，就我本人而言，我相信这对很多人也适用：我总是试图保持整洁，但当系统在压力下崩溃，东西无处安放时，我会觉得是自己的错。

Well, it's good to hear because I think, I know for me and I think this applies to a lot of people that I try to be neat and when it does break down under the pressure, when things don't go where they should go because there's no place for them, I figure it's my fault.

能获得这样的许可真好——承认不，生活本来就是这样。

And it's nice to kind of get permission to say, no, it's just life is that way.

所以，别试图把方钉硬塞进圆孔里。

And so don't try to put a square peg in a round hole.

这根本行不通。

It's just it's not going to work.

蒂姆·哈福德是我的嘉宾。

Tim Harford has been my guest.

他是《混乱的力量：重塑我们的生活》一书的作者，你可以在节目说明中找到他这本书的链接。

He is author of the book, The Power of Disorder to Transform Our Lives, and you'll find a link to his book in the show notes.

谢谢你，蒂姆。

Thank you, Tim.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.

很高兴和你聊天。

Great to talk to you.

如果你热爱布雷沃剧集、流行文化混乱和真诚的观点，那你一定想把TRH播客加入你的订阅列表。

If Bravo drama, pop culture chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want all about TRH podcast in your feed.

由罗克珊和尚塔尔主持，这档节目深入解析《真实主妇》真人秀以及每个人群聊都在争论的那些瞬间。

Hosted by Roxanne and Chantel, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about.

罗克珊自2010年起就开始爆料布雷沃的八卦。

Roxanne's been spilling Bravo tea since 2010.

是的，我们曾经采访过像卢安伯爵夫人和特蕾莎·吉杜斯这样的主妇界传奇人物。

And yes, we've interviewed housewives royalty like Countess Luanne and Teresa Giudice.

睿智的回顾、圈内人的能量，毫无废话。

Smart recaps, insider energy, and zero fluff.

在Apple播客、Spotify或你常用的平台收听《All About Tier Eight》播客。

Listen to all about tier eight podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

每周更新新集。

New episodes weekly.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《最长最短时间》的主持人希拉里·弗兰克，这是一档获奖播客，主题是育儿和生殖健康。

It's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

我们会讨论性教育、避孕、怀孕、身体自主权，当然还有各个年龄段的孩子。

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and, of course, kids of all ages.

但你不需要是父母也能收听。

But you don't have to be a parent to listen.

如果你喜欢关于人际关系和——你知道的——月经的令人惊喜、幽默又感人的故事，那么《最长最短时间》就是为你准备的。

If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you.

你可以在任何播客应用或访问 longestshortesttime.com 找到我们。

Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com.

无论你是男性还是女性，年轻还是年长，你的未来都迟早会需要你去清理某样东西。

Whether you are a man or a woman, young or old, there will be a time in your near future when you're gonna have to clean up something.

因为生活总会变得一团糟，而最懂得如何保持整洁的人莫过于乔莉·凯尔。

Because life gets messy, and nobody knows better how to keep things clean than Jolie Kerr.

乔莉撰写了一篇清洁建议专栏。

Jolie writes a cleaning advice column.

她主持一档名为《问一个爱干净的人》的播客，并著有《我男朋友吐在我手袋里》一书。

She has a podcast called ask a clean person, and she is author of a book called my boyfriend barfed in my handbag.

嗨，乔莉。

Hi, Jolie.

那么，你是怎么成为这位清洁达人呢？

So so how how did you get to be this cleaning guru?

我从小就是个爱干净的人。

I was always a clean person even as a child.

我小时候就有点古怪，现在更是个怪人。

I was kind of an odd child, and I'm definitely an odd adult.

我就是特别喜欢打扫卫生。

And I just really love cleaning.

这确实是我一直很热衷的事情，说来也怪。

It's just a a thing that I've always been into, oddly enough.

这太奇怪了。

That's very weird.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

与其他许多撰写和提供清洁建议的人相比，你确实非常热爱这个话题。

Well, compared to a lot of the other people who write about and give advice about cleaning, I mean, you, you love this topic.

我的意思是，这确实有点奇怪。

I mean, it does seem a little weird.

你可能说得对。

You might be right about that.

我其实从来没想过这一点。

I know I've actually never thought about that.

我的意思是，我总体上是个很快乐的人，我认为在几乎所有情况下保持积极乐观的态度并多笑，都是非常棒的事。

I mean, I'll tell you that I am a pretty joyful person in general, and I think that bringing, a positive upbeat attitude and lots of laughter to almost any situation, is a very great thing to do.

我只是觉得这会让生活变得更好。

I just think it makes life better.

好的。

Okay.

所以是的。

So yeah.

这就是我对清洁的看法。

That's the way I look at cleaning.

那我们来聊聊一些实际的操作吧，给你一些最喜欢的清洁小技巧，或者那些让人惊叹的‘我从来不知道’的清洁妙招。

So let's get into some nuts and bolts here and have you give us some of your favorites or some of the gee, I never knew that kind of cleaning tips that that will dazzle people.

所以，是的，有一件事我觉得人们通常会感到惊讶，那就是白醋是一种神奇的万能清洁剂，可以用来去除霉菌、清洁玻璃，还能当万能清洁液用。

So, yeah, one one thing that, I think people tend to be surprised by is that white vinegar is a magic product that can be used for everything from removing mold to as a glass cleaner and an all purpose cleaner.

它还是一种除臭剂，可以用于洗衣。

It's an odor eliminator that can be used in laundry.