如何找到真爱以及为何有些人追求不可能的目标

我知道你喜欢有趣且发人深省的对话和想法，因为你一直在听《你应该知道》这个节目。

I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know.

所以让我推荐另一档你一定会喜欢的播客。

So let me recommend another podcast I know you will enjoy.

它就是《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

It's the Jordan Harbinger Show.

乔丹有一种独特的才能，能让嘉宾分享故事并提供发人深省的见解。

Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights.

多年来，我推荐了很多人去听，也收到很多反馈，说他们非常感谢我向他们介绍了《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

Over the years, I've sent a lot of people to listen, and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger Show.

最近，他讨论了山达基教以及在该组织中长大的孩子们。

Recently, he discussed Scientology and the children who are raised in that organization.

这是一场非常引人入胜的对话。

It's a fascinating conversation.

他还与琳达·帕特里克博士探讨了如何在现代世界中保护自己的身心，而这比你想象的要难得多。

And he talked with doctor Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world, and it's tougher than you think.

我对乔丹相当了解。

I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well.

我们经常交谈，我告诉你，他是个非常聪明、有洞察力的人，做的播客简直太棒了。

We talk frequently, and I tell you, he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast.

在Apple播客、Spotify或你收听播客的任何平台，都可以收听《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

今天在《你应当知道的事》节目中，我们来谈谈航空乘客最讨厌的一件事。

Today on something you should know, the one thing airline passengers hate most of all.

接着，我们会探讨科学告诉我们寻找爱情的最佳方式，以及为什么在线约会应用可能是个麻烦。

Then what science tells us about the best ways to find love and why online dating apps can be trouble.

这并不是说在线约会对某些人不起作用。

That's not to say that online dating can't work for some people.

我认为，那些长相出众且被普遍认为有吸引力的人，在这方面会表现得很好。

I think for people who are quite hot and are consensually desirable, they're gonna do quite well.

但问题是，对很多人来说，可以

But the problem is that for a lot of people, can

会非常打击士气。

be quite demoralizing.

此外，如果你不小心，智能手机还可能导致皮肤问题，还有那些追求目标的人的精彩故事——但不是我们大多数人追求的那种目标。

Also, how your smartphone can cause skin problems if you're not careful, and the fascinating story of people who pursue goals, but not the kind of goals most of us go after.

有些人一生都在追求他们明知永远不会实现、几乎不可能实现，或者只有在他们去世很久之后才可能完成的目标。

People who have spent their lives in pursuit of goals that they know are never gonna happen, that are unlikely to happen, or are only going to be accomplished well after they're dead.

所有这些内容，今天都在《你应当知道》节目中。

All this today on Something You Should Know.

啊，摄政时期。

Ah, the regency era.

你可能知道，那是《布里奇顿》的故事背景，或者简·奥斯汀创作小说的那个时代。

You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, or as the time when Jane Austen wrote her books.

摄政时期也是社会变革、性丑闻频发的时期，或许还是英国历史上最糟糕的国王的时代。

The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history.

《粗俗历史》的新一季将全面聚焦摄政时期：舞会、礼服，以及所有丑闻。

Vulgar history's new season is all about the regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal.

在你收听播客的任何平台收听《粗俗历史》的摄政时代专题。

Listen to Vulgar history, regency era, wherever you get podcasts.

《你应当知道》——带来精彩资讯、世界顶尖专家的见解，以及你生活中能用得上的实用建议。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

今天，《你应当知道》邀请迈克·卡鲁瑟斯。

Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

如果你曾经坐过飞机，你很可能持有这种看法。

If you've ever been an airline passenger, you probably share this opinion.

这种看法就是，飞行中最让人恼火的事情之一就是其他乘客。

And the and and the opinion is that one of the most irritating things about flying is the other passengers.

你并不是唯一有这种感觉的人。

And you're not the only one who feels that way.

所以，今天在这期《你应当知道》中，我们就从这个话题开始。

So that's what we're gonna start with today on this episode of something you should know.

你好。

Hi.

欢迎。

Welcome.

我是迈克·卡鲁瑟斯。

I'm Mike Carruthers.

已有几项调查显示，航空旅客确实对周围座位的乘客感到困扰。

So there have been several surveys that show that air travelers are genuinely irritated by the people seated around them.

在最近的一项研究中，大多数乘客表示，侵犯个人空间、忽视基本卫生、大声说话、不戴耳机播放音频、过度饮酒以及让孩子乱跑等行为都会让飞行体验变得更糟。

In a recent study, a majority of flyers said that behaviors like invading personal space, ignoring basic hygiene, talking loudly, playing audio without headphones, excessive drinking, and letting kids run wild all make the flight significantly worse.

事实上，几乎每一种被测试的令人烦恼的行为都让至少一半的受访者感到困扰。

In fact, nearly every annoying behavior tested bothered at least half of the people surveyed.

尤其引人注目的是，许多乘客表示他们根本不想与人互动，更愿意在三万英尺的高空保持沉默。

What's especially striking is that many passengers say they dread interaction altogether, preferring silence over conversation at 30,000 feet.

狭小的空间、长时间延误、酒精和压力共同作用，使得在空中出现的礼仪失误比在地面时更令人恼火。

Tight quarters, long delays, alcohol, and stress combine to make etiquette failures feel even more aggravating in the air than they would on the ground.

所以下次你乘飞机时，请记住，毁掉大多数旅程的并不是颠簸。

So the next time you fly, remember, it's not turbulence that ruins most trips.

通常是人的问题，这一点你应该知道。

It's usually people, and that is something you should know.

从浪漫的角度来看，到底是什么吸引人们彼此靠近？

What actually attracts people to each other, romantically speaking?

我们往往关注第一印象、外貌、魅力和化学反应。

We tend to focus on first impressions, looks, charm, chemistry.

这些因素确实能让人走到一起，但它们并不能告诉你一个人是否适合成为长期伴侣。

And those things do bring people together, but they don't tell you much about whether someone will be a good long term partner.

人们配对的方式一直都很复杂，而现在更是如此。

The way people pair up has always been complicated, and now it's even more so.

约会应用为我们提供了几乎无穷无尽的潜在伴侣，这听起来是好事，但也许并非如此。

Dating apps have given us an almost endless supply of potential partners, which sounds like a good thing, but maybe not.

那么，科学和历史告诉我们，成功的伴侣们实际上是如何相遇的？

So what does science and history say about how successful couples actually meet?

拥有如此多的选择，是帮助我们找到爱情，还是让爱情更难寻觅？

And does having so many options help us find love or make it harder?

我们正与保罗·伊斯特威克一起探索这个问题。

That's what we're exploring with Paul Eastwick.

他是加利福尼亚大学戴维斯分校的心理学教授，并领导着吸引力与关系研究实验室。

He's a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis, where he directs the Attraction and Relationships Research Laboratory.

他还著有《进化之 bond：爱与连接的新科学》一书。

And he's author of a book called Bonded by Evolution, the new science of love and connection.

嘿，保罗。

Hey, Paul.

欢迎来到《你应当知道》。

Welcome to something you should know.

你好。

Hi.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

当然。

Sure.

好的。

Sure.

那我们从这里开始吧，因为你提到我们对吸引力、联结和爱情如何运作有很多误解和错误的想法。

So let's start here because you say that we have a lot of misconceptions and wrong ideas about how attraction and connection and love work.

那么这些误解有哪些呢？

So what are some of those?

我们哪里理解错了？

What what do we get wrong?

是的。

Yeah.

确实存在一些误解。

There's a few misconceptions out there.

我认为最大的一个误解是，认为择偶市场是一个永恒持续的、人们争夺最佳伴侣的竞争，而这是关系形成和发展的唯一方式。

I think one of the biggest ones is the idea that the mating market, a competition between people for the best partners that is eternal and ongoing, that this is the only way that relationships form and take shape.

这种想法对很多人来说都令人沮丧，比如我会想，我走出去后，也许我不是最有吸引力的人，但我还是会尽力而为。

It's kind of a demoralizing idea for many of us that, well, I'm gonna go out there and, you know, maybe I'm not the most attractive person, but I'll do the best I can.

而且，希望我能 somewhere 找到一个伴侣，他们以后也不会抛弃我。

And, you know, hopefully, I'll find a partner somewhere, and they won't trade up on me down the line.

我认为，用这种比喻来理解吸引力和亲密关系是有限的。

I think this metaphor for thinking about attraction and close relationships is limited.

这种比喻的局限在于，它只适用于初次见面的陌生人，而我们往往低估了市场机制在解释长期熟识的人群如何建立关系时的无力之处。

It is limited in the sense that it applies among strangers who are meeting for the first time, but I think we underappreciate the extent to which market dynamics poorly explain how people form relationships, among groups of people who have known each other for a while.

而且事实上，长期在群体中相互了解，历史上正是人类建立关系的主要方式。

And it also just so happens that getting to know people in groups over long periods of time, historically, that actually is how humans have formed relationships.

所以当你观察成功的亲密关系时，一般来说，因为人们结合的方式有成千上万种。

So when you look at successful relationships, generally speaking, because there's a million ways people can get together.

但总的来说，那些良好的关系在形成过程中有什么共同点呢？

But generally speaking, what do the good relationships have in common in terms of how they came to be?

我的意思是，特别在当今时代，人们结合的方式多种多样，这非常有趣。

I mean, what's fascinating is that, especially in today's day and age, people can get together in a wide variety of different ways.

显然，现在各种交友应用起了很大作用

Obviously, we have the apps doing a lot

对我们来说，工作固然重要，但人们仍然通过经典的方式相识，比如通过朋友的朋友等。

of work for us, but it's also still true that people meet through the classic ways of, you know, meeting people in groups, friends of friends of friends, etcetera.

我觉得特别有趣的是，人们最初相识的方式以及他们关系的初期发展轨迹，实际上对最终能建立的关系影响不大。

What's really interesting I find is that the way that people meet in the first place and the trajectory that they take, at least in the beginning, it honestly tends not to matter all that much for what people will ultimately build.

换句话说，许多关系是在过程中逐渐构建起来的，而且很多关系最终并不成功。

In other words, many relationships, they're sort of constructed along the way, and and a lot of relationships don't work out.

但对于那些最终走到一起的人而言，很难说某一个时刻或某个决定真正让他们走上了正轨。

But for people who do ultimately get together, it's very hard to do a single moment in time or a single decision that really put them on the right track.

更准确地说，有无数种正确的方式，但你在开始与某人建立关系的过程中，也需要在众多选择中稍微幸运一点。

It's more like there's a million different ways to do it right, but you also have to kinda get a little bit lucky with the many, many choices that you make as you start forming a relationship with somebody.

我也觉得这个观点有点令人释然，因为它意味着，当你最初遇到某人时，即使你们之间有某种连接，但你心里想：‘这好像不是我想要约会的那种人’，或者‘你知道吗，这个人是不是比我更吸引人？’

I also find this idea a little bit freeing too because what it means is when you initially meet somebody, if there's a connection there, but you feel like, oh, this isn't the kind of person I might want to date or oh, my you know, is this person more attractive than me?

这以后会成为问题吗？

Is that gonna be trouble down the line?

在大多数情况下，我们在初期能评估的那些因素，对未来关系的发展几乎没有任何预测力。

For the most part, all the things that we can assess at the beginning ultimately have very little predictive power later on.

真正重要的是你们在过程中共同建立的东西

What matters instead is what you build along

一路走来。

the way.

看来，让人们走到一起、相互吸引的很多因素，与维持关系长久的因素几乎没有关系，比如外貌、穿着，还有那些你为了吸引他人而刻意去做的事情，这些在长远来看都不重要，但在初期却非常关键，能为真正重要的东西披上一层光鲜的外衣。

Well, it seems that so much of what brings people together, what attracts people to each other seems to have very little to do with what keeps people together, you know, looks and, you know, how you dress and, you know, the things that you try to do to get someone's attention and none of that stuff matters in the long run, but it's real important in the beginning and kind of puts a gloss over what you what's really important.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a very good point.

我们经常在研究中看到，你可以预测谁在初期更受欢迎，而这正是你提到的那些因素。

What we often see in the research is that you can predict who is initially popular, and it's a lot of the things you mentioned.

对吧？

Right?

外貌有吸引力的人，在与陌生人初次见面的场合中往往更受欢迎。

And people who are physically attractive, they tend to be more popular in settings when they're meeting strangers, especially.

社交自信强的人在这些场合中也表现得更好。

People who have a lot of social confidence also tend to do well in those kinds of settings.

但你完全正确，这些特质在关系真正形成和发展之后，就不再具有任何有意义的预测能力了。

But you're absolutely right that these attributes just don't have any meaningful predictive power later on as a relationship, actually forms and takes shape.

但有一个有趣的细节，我最推荐人们在初次相识时去做的，就是比你想象中更开放、更坦诚一些。

But one interesting wrinkle, the single best thing that I could recommend to somebody to do on, like, a first aid as you're getting to know somebody is to be a little bit more open and a little bit more vulnerable than you might assume.

事实上，我们在各种不同的情境中都看到，那些愿意谈论可能让自己感到不适的事情的人——比如，你有什么从未告诉过别人的遗憾？

And in fact, we see in a whole wide variety of settings that people who are willing to, you know, talk about things that might make them a little uncomfortable, oh, what's something you regret that you've never told anybody?

你知道吗？

You know?

你害怕死亡吗？

Are you afraid of death?

还有，为什么？

And, you know, why?

引导人们谈论这些话题，实际上能在早期就增加彼此的好感，就像它们也能在关系后期促进亲密感一样。

Getting people to talk about these kind of things actually can lead to more more liking early on in the same way that they can help build closeness later in a relationship too.

长期以来，人们相识的典型方式——比如通过朋友的朋友，在酒吧相遇，诸如此类。

So the stereotypical ways that, you know, people meet people or have met people for as long as I can remember is, you know, a friend a friend of a friend, you meet in a bar, those kind of things.

现在是在线约会，那这些方式呢？

And now online dating, What about those things?

我的意思是，历史上人们一直是这样认识彼此的吗？它们有效吗？

I mean, have they historically been the way people meet and do they work?

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们回溯人类进化所处的环境，顺便说一下，我的书对许多进化心理学观点提出了批评，但我自己也采取了一种进化视角。

So if we think back to the environment in which people evolved, and again, you know, my book is critiquing a lot of evolutionary psychology, but I also take an evolved approach.

我非常认真地看待这样一个观点：在我们祖先的过去，人们形成关系时，都是在小群体中进行的。

And I take very seriously the idea that when people formed relationships in our ancestral past, they were doing so in small groups.

你认识的人其实没多少，你知道的，在草原上的群体里。

You didn't know all that many people, you know, in your groups on the savannah.

你可能在一个50人的群体中，但其中只有极少数人是你合适的伴侣。

You may be in a group of 50 people, and only a tiny fraction of them were eligible partners for you.

但你有一个优势，那就是有足够长的时间去了解这些人。

But you had the advantage of getting to know these people over pretty healthy stretches of time.

而这通常促使我们所说的兼容性。

And what that tends to pull for is what we call compatibility.

兼容性是一个科学概念。

Compatibility is a scientific concept.

它甚至是一个数学概念。

It's even a mathematical concept.

它基本上意味着，嘿。

And it basically means like, hey.

你会和某些人特别合得来，而不是其他人。

You're gonna click really well with some people rather than others.

在群体中逐渐了解一个人，有助于促成这一点。

Getting to know people over time in groups pulls for that.

它让人们能够发现，甚至培养与他人的兼容性。

It allows people to find and even generate compatibility with other people.

应用程序的挑战在于，当你浏览个人资料、查看他人的照片时，兼容性就变得不那么明显了。

The challenge with the apps is that when you're browsing profiles and looking at people's pictures, compatibility is a little less palpable.

而你关注的反而是那些显而易见的表面特征，比如这个人很帅/很漂亮。

And what you're instead focused on are the obvious surface level things like this person is hot.

这并不是说在线约会对某些人完全无效。

That's not to say that online dating can't work for some people.

我认为，对于那些本身非常有吸引力且被普遍认可的人，他们在在线约会中会表现得很好。

I think for people who are quite hot and are consensually desirable, they're gonna do quite well.

但问题是，对很多人来说，这可能会非常打击士气。

But the problem is that for a lot of people, it can be quite demoralizing.

因此，我总是建议人们：你得多元化你的约会方式，别忘了传统的人际交往方式，因为这些方式在很多方面都很有效。

And this is why I'm always recommending to people, like, you gotta diversify your your dating portfolio and and don't forget about the classic group based ways of meeting people because those are effective in many ways.

嗯，我之前没想过这一点。

Well, I hadn't thought about that.

对，这说得通，如果你在一群人当中，这也能减轻压力，因为群体环境能缓解‘我喜欢你吗？你喜欢我吗？’这种直接的紧张感。

That yeah, that makes sense that if you're in a group of people and then well, it also takes the pressure off because a group takes the pressure off of do I like you and do you like me?

是的。

Yeah.

当然了。

Oh, absolutely.

这几乎成了一门失传的技艺。

I it's almost becoming a lost art.

与朋友和熟人群体社交这门失传的技艺——比如你相当了解的人，和你有点了解的人，想法是：哦，我可以带某人参加这个派对，他们认识一些人，我也认识一些人，这样我们也许能认识新的人。

The lost art of socializing in groups of friends and acquaintances, like people that you know pretty well and people you know kinda well, the idea that, oh, I might, like, bring somebody to this party and, like, they're gonna know a few people and I'm gonna know a few people and maybe we're gonna meet new people this way.

当你观察在数月或数年间更有可能建立关系的人时，通常会发现，那些拥有更丰富社交网络的异性恋者更占优势。

When you look at who is more likely to form relationships over a period of months or years, what you generally tend to see is that the people with richer these are, heterosexuals.

也就是说，拥有更多跨性别朋友的异性恋者。

So heterosexuals with richer networks of mixed gender friends.

这些人更有可能建立关系。

These are the folks that are more likely to form relationships.

这并不是因为他们直接和自己心仪性别的人的朋友约会，而更可能是他们和朋友的朋友，或朋友的朋友的朋友约会。

Not necessarily because they're dating the the friends of their preferred gender, but it's probably more that they're dating the friends of the friends or the friends of the friends of the friends.

历史上，这一直是主流方式。

That historically has been how this has tended to work.

这种做法的好处在于，它减轻了促使所有人都急于追求最吸引人对象的强烈市场力量。

And the nice thing about this approach is that it reduces the strong market forces that cause everybody to rush to want to date the most attractive people.

随着我们随着时间推移逐渐了解他人，我们对那些普遍被认为有吸引力的人的向往也会相应减弱。

As we get to know people over time, we stop feeling that pull toward the consensually attractive people, to the same extent.

我们正在与保罗·伊斯特威克讨论约会、吸引力以及情侣是如何走到一起的。

We're talking about dating, attraction, and how couples get together with Paul Eastwick.

他是加州大学戴维斯分校的心理学教授，也是《纽带：进化中的爱情与连接新科学》一书的作者。

He's a professor of psychology at UC Davis and author of the book Bonded by Evolution, The New Science of Love and Connection.

年轻时，一支名为“石狼”的精英突击队五名成员曾反抗克雷特罗坎帝国的压迫统治，该帝国占领并主宰了银河系大多数宜居星球。

When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the Stone Wolves raged against the oppressive rule of the Crateroccan Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets.

狼群为自由而战，但最终失败，留下无数尸体。

The wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake.

战败且心灰意冷的他们放下武器，各奔东西，都希望在充满暴力与压迫的宇宙中寻得一丝宁静。

Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression.

在他们巅峰时期的四十年后，每个人都在努力求生、勉强谋生，但一位旧友不愿让他们放下过去，他们的死敌也同样不肯放过他们。

Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living, but a friend from the past won't let them move on, and neither will their bitterest enemy.

《石狼队》是作家斯科特·西格勒创作的银河足球联盟科幻系列的第十一季。

The Stone Wolves is season eleven of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler.

你可以将它作为独立故事欣赏，也可以从第一季《新秀》开始收听整个GFL系列。

Enjoy it as a standalone story or listen to the entire GFL series beginning with season one, the rookie.

在你收听播客的平台搜索斯科特·西格勒，拼写为 s I g l e r。

Search for Scott Sigler, s I g l e r, wherever you get your podcasts.

如果你热爱布拉沃剧集、流行文化乱象和真诚的见解，那你一定想把《TRH》播客加入你的订阅列表。

If bravo drama, pop culture chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want all about TRH podcast in your feed.

由罗克珊和香特尔主持，这档节目深入剖析《真实主妇》真人秀以及每个群聊都在争论的精彩瞬间。

Hosted by Roxanne and Chantel, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about.

罗克珊自2010年起就开始爆料布拉沃的八卦。

Roxanne's been spilling Bravo tea since 2010.

是的，我们曾经采访过主妇界的传奇人物，比如卢安伯爵夫人和特蕾莎·吉杜斯。

And, yes, we've interviewed housewives royalty like Countess Luann and Teresa Giudice.

精辟的回顾、圈内人的能量，绝不掺水。

Smart recaps, insider energy, and zero fluff.

在苹果播客、Spotify 或您收听播客的任何平台收听《关于第八层级》播客。

Listen to all about tier eight podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

每周更新新集。

New episodes weekly.

所以，保罗，在我看来，这个系统的一个缺陷是，当你遇到某人或对某人产生好感时，往往会倾向于展现自己最好的一面，尽量让自己看起来更有吸引力，这并不是欺骗，而只是展现最好的自己。

So, Paul, it would seem to me that one of the flaws in the system is that when you meet somebody or you're attracted to somebody, there is a tendency to make sure that you put your best foot forward, that you try to look as attractive as you can, not in a deceptive way, but just in a put your best foot forward way.

是的。

Yeah.

换句话说，你并不是真实的自己。

In other words, you're not exactly who you really are.

你只是暂时变成了一个更好的自己。

You are a better you momentarily.

而这种状态可能会吸引别人对你产生兴趣。

And that that might attract someone to you.

但随后，当你真正展现自我时，对方眼中的玫瑰色滤镜就会褪去，因为他们现在看到的是真实的你。

But but then, you know, then the then the rose colored glasses come off because now you're they they see you

真实的你。

for who you really are.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常有趣，因为我完全认同你所描述的这种趋势，我认为这对很多人来说都会感到熟悉。

So it's so interesting because I fully resonate with this trajectory that you're describing, and I think it will feel familiar to a lot of people.

但我希望至少鼓励人们尝试一些新的方式，或者以稍微不同的角度来思考这个问题。

But I want to at least encourage people to either try on something new or think about this in a slightly different way.

对。

Yes.

我们倾向于在初期就自我宣传，展现出自己最好的一面。

We have a tendency to try to self promote, show off the best version of ourselves that we can early on.

这种倾向中有一些确实是误导性的。

Some of that tendency is indeed misguided.

因此，有一些研究表明，当你刚开始了解某人时，如果你能说出对方能帮助你的地方，而不是表现得一切尽在掌握，反而会显得更有吸引力。

So there's some work, for example, showing that when you're first getting to know somebody, it actually comes across as more appealing if you talk, if you identify something that the other person can do to help you than if you act like you've got everything under control.

所以这些研究显示，比如，‘你对X话题了解这么多，真有意思。’

So these are studies that show things like, oh, like, that's really interesting that you know a lot about topic x.

如果你愿意给我一些指导，我其实很需要这方面的帮助。

I actually could use some help with that if you'd be willing to give me some guidance.

我对这个不太了解。

I don't know much about that.

这样主动求助，反而会让对方觉得你非常有吸引力。

That can make somebody seem extremely appealing that you've just reached out like that.

所以我认为，第一点可能会让很多人感到惊讶。

So I think that's, part number one that I think would surprise a lot of people.

从更广的角度来看，人们常常忽略的一点是，他们以为自己必须展现出最完美的版本，才能进入一段关系。

At a broader level, I think that one thing that people often miss is they think, like, they gotta be the best version of themselves to get into a relationship in the first place.

但他们忽略的是，一段关系的真正意义在于，通过接触新的想法、新的活动和新的价值观，我们能在关系中成长为更好的自己。

And what they miss is that a lot of what being in a relationship means is that we become better versions of ourselves through that relationship by getting exposed to new ideas, new activities, new values.

因此，自我拓展的过程，其实是建立亲密关系的关键所在。

So that process of self expansion is really a key part of getting in a close relationship in the first place.

所以这就是为什么我总是试图提醒人们：别一上来就想着先彻底提升自己，然后再进入一段关系。

So this is why I always try to warn people, like, don't, you know, do the whole, like, I'm gonna work on myself first totally before I get into a relationship.

实际情况要复杂得多。

It's really far more dynamic than that.

在线约会应用对这一切产生了什么影响？

What has online dating the apps done to this whole thing?

因为显然，在那之前，你能遇到的人受到很多限制。

Because because clearly, before that, you were limited by a lot of things about who you would ever run into.

现在你可以接触到无穷无尽的潜在伴侣，只要有一点小问题，你就直接放弃，因为总会有更好的人。

Now you can meet like an endless supply of potential mates and one little red flag and you're gone because there's could be somebody better.

这似乎扭曲了整个过程。

And it seems like that skews the whole thing.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这带来了一些问题。

I think this causes some issues.

这会带来一些问题，就像你提到的，你发现一个红色警报就立刻离开。

It causes some issues, like you mentioned, you discover a red flag and you're gone.

通过让人们能够早早地放弃潜在伴侣，你实际上剥夺了双方建立兼容性的可能性。

By giving people the ability to bail early on potential partners, you really remove the possibility of compatibility forming.

我认为对很多人来说，这可能会引起一些抱怨，因为这意味着，即使你和某人的第一次约会只是勉强过得去，也值得给对方第二次、第三次机会，因为第一印象往往是最不稳定的。

I think for a lot of people, maybe this earns some groans because what it means is that even if your first date with somebody is just kinda okay, really it is worth giving somebody a second and a third chance because first impressions tend to be the least stable impressions.

如果你和某人互动了一千次，那么第一千零一次的印象不会和第一千次有太大不同。

If, you know, if you've interacted with somebody a thousand times, your a thousand and first impression is not gonna be all that different than your thousandth impression.

但你的第二次印象可能和第一次大不相同。

But your second impression can differ quite a bit from your first.

而在这种可以随时退出的约会系统中，我可能只和你见面二十分钟，然后就说：不行。

And with an opt out system, a system of dating where I can meet you for twenty minutes and say, nope.

算了。

No more.

我这就拉黑你了。

I'm I'm ghosting you.

我受够了。

I'm done with this.

我不必再见你了，因为我们没有共同的朋友。

I don't have to meet you again because we don't share any friends in common.

这让很多人在约会时变得很困难。

This is, this makes dating challenging for a lot of people.

它确实让我们过于关注那些最初看起来特别有吸引力的人。

It really restricts our focus on the people that are initially super desirable.

我认为应用程序的另一个作用是，它们让我们过度关注自己以为想要的东西，因为有这么多筛选条件，你只能遇到那些与你兴趣相投的人。

I think the other thing that the apps can do is they really get us to focus on what we think we want because there are all these filters and you can just meet the people who share your particular interests.

你试图在纸上勾勒出完美的伴侣，但证据表明，你可能在不必要地限制自己的选择，也许还过高地抬高了期望。

You try to draw up the perfect partner on paper, but I think the evidence suggests you're probably limiting your options unnecessarily and maybe, you know, raising your expectations unnecessarily.

所以我认为，这些在很多方面都是应用程序的问题。

So I think these are in many ways the problems with the apps.

轻易放弃一个人实在太容易了。

It's like too easy to bail on somebody.

我们已经失去了逐步了解他人的能力，不管你愿不愿意。

We've lost the art of getting to know people over time, you know, kinda whether we want to or not.

其次，这让我们过于钻牛角尖，太关注自己以为想要的东西，而不是长时间相处时的真实感受。

And second of all, it gets us really in our heads, you know, too focused on what we think we want rather than what it feels like to be around somebody over a period

随着时间推移。

of time.

然后还有一些人，我确实认识这样的人，也许我自己也曾是其中之一，明明看到了危险信号，却因为其他吸引力而选择忽视。

And then there are the people who I've I've certainly known people and maybe I've been one, who the red flags are there, but you ignore them because there's something else pulling you in.

但你能看出来，我觉得当别人告诉你时，更容易发现：‘是啊，我遇到了这个人’，然后你一听，等等，什么？

But you can see it, it's easier I think to see it when with other people where they tell you, yeah, I met this person and and then you hear, wait, what?

对。

And Yeah.

那还没把你吓跑吗？

That hasn't scared you off yet?

但到底什么时候才算真正的危险信号？

But but when is a red flag a red flag and it's A real red flag.

是的

Yeah.

对

Right.

这确实是真正的挑战之一，因为人们在长期亲密关系中所做的事——我甚至认为，人们在长期亲密关系中不得不做的事——就是必须以某种方式将伴侣的缺点分隔开来。

This is this is one of the genuine challenges because what people do in their ongoing close relationships, and I'd even argue what people kinda have to do in their ongoing close relationships, is people have to somehow compartmentalize their partner's flaws.

因为我有个消息要告诉你。

Because I've got news.

所有伴侣都有缺点。

All partners have flaws.

而我们能够维持与他人这种亲密、相互依赖且充满风险的关系的唯一方式，就是承认他们的缺点，但尽可能地淡化它们。

And the only way that we can sustain a close interdependent risky relationship with another person is to acknowledge their flaws but downplay them as best we can.

因此，在很多方面，这意味着把你伴侣身上别人可能觉得烦人的地方，却觉得可爱的地方保留下来。

So in many ways, that means taking this thing about your partner that other people might find annoying, but you find it adorable.

或者你告诉自己：是的，我明白她有这些缺点，但每个人都有这样的缺点。

Or you tell yourself things that like, well, yeah, I understand that she has these flaws, but, like, everybody has these flaws.

所以，如果我跟别人约会，情况也不会更好。

So it's not like if I were dating somebody else, that was gonna be any better.

我们称之为动机性推理，而动机性推理是我们心理工具箱中最重要的工具之一，用于应对任何困难的事情，比如维系亲密关系。

We call this motivated reasoning, and motivated reasoning is one of the most important tools that we have in our mental toolkit for doing anything hard, like sustaining a close relationship.

但这里的挑战在于，有时你正在压抑、装进盒子、刻意忽略的那些东西，实际上确实是问题。

But the challenge here is that sometimes those things that you're downplaying that you're putting in a box and setting it aside and trying not to look at, sometimes those things actually are bad.

有时候，那些正是你明明知道的、不该和这个人维持关系的理由。

Sometimes those things are thing you know, reasons why you shouldn't be in a relationship with this person.

我的意思是，如果你逼我立刻回答，我会说，这是我最希望科学能为普通人更好解释的一件事。

I mean, if you were to put me on the spot, I would say this is the single thing that I wish the science could explain better for everyday people.

可原谅的人性缺点，和真正会惹麻烦的危险信号，这两者之间有什么区别？

What is the difference between a forgivable human flaw and a genuine red flag that's gonna cause trouble?

很难明确指出它们到底是什么。

It's very hard to point to what they are.

那些会主动表现出攻击性的人，这一点我就能明确指出来。

People who are aggressive in a proactive way, that's one that I can point to.

这是一个不应该被忽视的缺点。

That's a flaw that shouldn't be overlooked.

但人们拥有的许多其他缺点其实可以归为这两类之一。

But many of the other flaws that people have really can go in one category or the other.

鉴于你所知道的一切，对于正在寻找爱情的人，你最核心的建议是什么？

Given all that you know, what what's your, like, core advice here for people that are looking for love?

对于那些在外挣扎、感到沮丧的人，我并不是说要彻底放弃这些应用。

For people who are out there and struggling and frustrated, I don't say ditch the apps entirely.

我很现实。

I'm realistic.

我知道它们很有价值。

I know that they're valuable.

对很多人来说，它们在许多方面都有价值。

For a lot of people, they're valuable in many ways.

但我建议人们想象一下，即使没有浪漫的初衷，只是与他人建立联系会是什么样子。

But I like to advise people to imagine what it would be like to just form connections with other people even without the romantic pretense.

重新建立我们的社交网络会是什么样子？

What would it be like to regrow our social networks again?

因为过去十年到二十年里，我们的社交网络都逐渐萎缩了。

Because all of our social networks have kind of atrophied in the last ten to twenty years.

我喜欢思考，需要做些什么才能让人们因为某种共同的活动或兴趣重新聚在一起？

I like to think about what would it take to bring people together again around some sort of shared activity, shared interest.

仅仅为了扩大社交网络，把朋友介绍给其他朋友，会是什么样子？

What would it be like to introduce friends to other friends just for the sake of growing that network?

不是因为‘拜托，帮我介绍这个人’。

Not because, oh, please introduce me to this person.

而是‘我需要你给我安排一次相亲’。

Like, I need you to set me up on a blind date.

所以，不要只关注你将在哪里遇见下一位伴侣，而是想想：我该去哪里再次和一些人相处，帮助我的社交网络成长、演变和改变？

So instead of focusing on where you're gonna meet your next partner, just focus on where am I gonna hang out with some people again and help my social networks to grow and shift and change.

因为，再次强调，我们过去在近期乃至更久以前，通常都是通过朋友的朋友认识伴侣的。

Because, again, where we tended to meet partners in the recent past and in the distant past were things like friends of friends.

如果我们把这种策略重新引入到我们的约会方式中，我认为这对很多人会非常有帮助。

And if we reintroduce that strategy into the way that we date, I I think that can be very helpful for a lot of people.

说到我自己，因为我已经结婚很久了。

You know, speaking for myself, because, you know, I've I've been married a long time.

我有孩子。

I have kids.

我已经很久没有去约会了。

You know, I've not been out dating for a long time.

但我和我相信许多正在听的、处于恋爱关系或婚姻中的人一样，仍然觉得这个话题非常有趣。

But I, along with I'm sure many people listening who are in relationships or marriages, we still find this topic really fascinating.

这有点像在看一场旁观者的运动，我想。

It's kind of like a spectator sport, I guess.

看到人们如何走到一起，观察其他情侣，这很有趣。

And it's interesting to see how people get together, to watch other couples.

我对此很感兴趣，也很喜欢听关于这方面的科学见解。

I get a kick out of it, I appreciate hearing about the science.

我一直在与加州大学戴维斯分校的心理学教授保罗·伊斯特威克交谈。

I've been talking with Paul Eastwick, who is a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis.

他是《纽带：进化的爱情与连接新科学》一书的作者。

He's author of the book Bonded by Evolution, The New Science of Love and Connection.

你可以在亚马逊上找到他这本书的链接。

You'll find a link to his book at Amazon.

保罗，非常感谢你抽出时间来做客。

Paul, I'm grateful you stopped by.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢你，迈克。

Thanks so much, Mike.

今天能和你对话真是太愉快了。

It has been a joy being on with you today.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《最短最长的时间》的希拉里·弗兰克，这是一档获奖播客，主题是为人父母和生殖健康。

It's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

我们会讨论性教育、避孕、怀孕、身体自主权，当然还有各个年龄段的孩子。

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and, of course, kids of all ages.

但你并不需要成为父母才能收听。

But you don't have to be a parent to listen.

如果你喜欢关于人际关系以及——你知道的——月经的令人惊讶、幽默又动人的故事，《最短最长的时间》就适合你。

If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, The Longest Shortest Time is for you.

你可以在任何播客应用中找到我们，或者访问 longestshortesttime.com。

Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com.

想象一下，将你的一生奉献给一件你明知自己可能永远看不到完成的事情，一个你几乎确定在有生之年不会实现的目标，如果它能实现的话。

Imagine devoting your life to something that you know you'll probably never see finished, a goal you're almost certain won't come true in your lifetime, if it comes true at all.

这就像是参加一场你明知自己无法完成的赛跑。

It's like starting a race you know you'll never finish.

我们大多数人不会这么做。

Most of us wouldn't do that.

我不会这么做。

I wouldn't do that.

我们想要结果、了结，以及证明这一切都是值得的。

We want outcomes, closure, proof that it was worth it.

然而，有些人却自愿花费数十年追求那些没有成功保证、也毫无个人回报的目标。

And yet, some people willingly spend decades pursuing goals with no guarantee of success and no chance of personal payoff.

那么，他们为什么这么做呢？

So why do they do it?

什么样的人会承诺去实现一个不可能的目标？又是什么让他们坚持下去？

What kind of person commits to an impossible goal, and what keeps them going?

今天，我们就和马克·梅德利一起探讨这个问题。

Well, that's what we're exploring today with Mark Medley.

他是一名记者，也是《活到见证不可能的目标、难以想象的未来，以及追求可能永远无法实现的事物》一书的作者。

He's a journalist and author of a book called Live to See the Impossible Goals, Unimaginable Futures, and the Pursuit of Things That May Never Be.

嗨，马克。

Hey, Mark.

欢迎收听《你该知道的事》。

Welcome to Something You Should Know.

非常感谢你邀请我，迈克。

Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

所以你写的这本书，这个项目，能解释一下你做了什么，关注了哪些人，以及为什么要做这个吗？

So this book you wrote, this project, explain what you did here and who you looked at and and briefly why you did this.

当然可以。

Sure.

我的书主要讲述那些一生都在追求明知不可能实现、几乎不可能实现，或者知道只有在自己去世几十年、几百年、甚至几千年后才可能完成的目标的人。

So my book is pretty much about people who have spent their lives in pursuit of goals that they know are never gonna happen, that are unlikely to happen, or they know are only going to be accomplished well after they're dead in decades, in centuries, in millennia from now.

于是我环游世界，寻找那些符合这种特质的人，这源于我多年来作为记者的工作经历。

So I went around the world to find people who kind of fit the bill, and it stems from work I've done as a journalist over the years.

这个项目的根源可以追溯到2008年。

I mean, the the the roots of this project date back, you know, to 2008.

为了让大家有个直观感受，我简单列举一些这类人的例子，他们是谁，做什么。

And so to give people a sense, just a a quick list of some examples of these kinds of people, who they are, what they do.

SETI研究人员。

SETI researchers.

这是对地外智慧生命的搜索。

That's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

这些科学家和物理学家正在宇宙其他地方寻找智慧生命。

So those scientists and physicists who are looking elsewhere in the universe for intelligence life.

我前往苏门答腊，跟踪一位著名摄影师，他过去四十年来一直试图拍摄一种科学界不承认其存在的神秘猿类，但他声称在九十年代初曾用摄像机拍到过。

I went to Sumatra to follow a renowned photographer who spent the last forty years trying to get a mystery ape that science doesn't believe exists, but he claims to have seen in the early nineties on film.

我花了很多时间跟踪美国宇航局有史以来首次行星防御任务——这个领域的人士都知道，一颗毁灭性小行星短期内不会撞击地球，但他们今天正在为保护我们数百年、甚至数百万年后的后代奠定基础。

I spent a lot of time following NASA's first ever planetary defense mission, which, you know, people who are in that field know a killer asteroid isn't gonna strike the Earth anytime soon, but they are laying the foundation today to protect our descendants centuries, if not millions of years from now.

这些就是我试图捕捉的一些故事。

So those are some of the stories that I tried to capture.

但还有那些声称自己要完成不可能之事的人。

But also people who, like, state that they wanna do something impossible.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

我所记录的其中一个人是一位女性，她一生都在致力于消除贫困。

One of the people that I profiled is a woman who has, you know, spent her life trying to end poverty.

另一个人是一位在亚利桑那州的寻宝者，他过去六十年来一直在寻找失踪的荷兰人的矿藏。

Another person is, you know, a treasure hunter in Arizona who has spent the last, you know, sixty years looking for the lost Dutchman's mind.

这些事情理论上或许有可能，但他们也明白，很可能永远不会实现。

So these are things that, I guess, are theoretically possible, but they realize are are probably not gonna happen.

那他们为什么要做这些呢？

And why do they do it?

是因为每个人都有各自不同的理由，还是说他们之间存在某种共性，值得我去揭示？

Is it is it a case of everybody has an their own individual reason, or is there something that they all have in common that you can shine a light on?

当我与这些人交谈时，确实发现了一种共同点。

There's definitely a commonality that emerged, as I spoke to these people.

他们拥有无穷的耐心。

You know, they have bottomless, reserves of patience.

他们拥有令人钦佩的毅力，并且从自己所做的事情中获得很多乐趣。

They have, you know, very impressive reserves of perseverance, and they take a lot of pleasure in what they do.

我的意思是，如果你知道自己不会到达终点，那你必须享受奔跑的过程。

I mean, you have to enjoy the run if you know you're not gonna hit the finish line.

这些人的兴趣更多在于旅程本身，而不是目的地。

You know, these are people who are more interested in the journey rather than the destination.

于是你决定选一个例子，让我们稍微深入探讨一下，走进他们的内心，弄清楚这里到底发生了什么。

And so you decide you pick an example of somebody that we can talk about for a little bit here to to kinda get into their head and figure out what's going on here.

当然。

Of course.

我的意思是，当我回想起数百个人时，通常第一个浮现在脑海的是杰里米·霍尔登。

I mean, when I think back of the the hundreds of people, the the person that usually comes to mind is Jeremy Holden.

他是一位英国摄影师，五十多岁，但一生中大部分时间都在东南亚度过。

He's a British photographer who's in his late fifties, but he has spent much of his life in Southeast Asia.

他在二十世纪九十年代初抵达了印度尼西亚的苏门答腊岛。

He showed up to Sumatra, an island in Indonesia, in the early nineteen nineties.

他当时只是像大学毕业后很多人那样，背着包四处旅行。

He was just backpacking around, like, you know, people after college tend to do.

在那里，他遇到了一位名叫黛比·马蒂尔的英国记者，她过去几年一直在寻找一种叫奥兰·彭迪克的生物。

And when he was there, he met a woman named Debbie Martyr, who was a British journalist who had been spending the last several years looking for a creature named the Oran Pendek.

奥兰·彭迪克基本上就是印尼或苏门答腊版的大脚怪。

Now the Oran Pendek is basically Indonesia or Sumatra's version of the Bigfoot.

我的意思是，那些世代居住在这座岛屿上的原住民，几个世纪以来一直在讲述关于它的故事。

I mean, this is something that the indigenous people who call the island home have been telling stories about for centuries.

这个生物甚至被马可·波罗在他的游记中提及过。

This is a creature that Marco Polo referred to in his journals.

在荷属东印度时期，殖民者

During the period of the Dutch East Indies, colonialists

谁

who

在岛上工作的人声称自己见过它。

are working on the island claimed to have seen it.

但你知道，大多数人并不相信这东西真的存在。

But, you know, most people doesn't believe this exists.

但杰里米对这个故事非常感兴趣，一直追随黛比，于是他同意把旅行搁置一旁，决定留在那里。

But Jeremy was very, very interested in the story and following Debbie, and so he agreed to put his travels to the side, and and he decided he was gonna remain there.

他声称自己在二十世纪九十年代初，也就是刚到岛上大约六个月后，亲眼见过这个生物。

He claims to have seen the creature in the early nineteen nineties, about six months after he arrived on the island.

巧合的是，他当时没带相机，但因为他是个摄影师，所以他决定，唯一能向世人证明这东西真实存在的方法，就是把它拍下来。

Conveniently, he didn't have a camera, but because he's a photographer, he decided the one way he was gonna be able to prove to the rest of the world that this thing exists was to get it on film.

所以，从1993年起，他就把生命中的大部分时间都花在了苏门答腊的这个国家公园里——我几年前也去过那里——试图拍下这个生物的画面。

And so, you know, since 1993, he has spent a large portion of his life in Sumatra in this national park, which I traveled to a couple of years ago, trying to capture this creature on film.

你知道，他非常清楚这个故事听起来有多荒唐，人们跟他交谈时总会翻白眼，觉得他疯了，觉得他在浪费时间。

And, you know, he is somebody who is very well aware of how this story sounds, that, you know, people roll their eyes when they talk to him, that they think he's, you know, delusional, that he's wasting his time.

他放弃了一切所谓正常生活的可能，只为拍下这个生物的画面，可他依然坚持着。

He has somebody who very much has, you know, given up at what he says is any semblance of a normal life to try to capture this creature on film, and yet he does it anyway.

你知道吧？

You know?

正如他告诉我那样，他的墓志铭上会写着：这里长眠着一位未能实现人生追求的人，但正是这份失败，赋予了他一段非凡的人生。

As he said to me, he's gonna be somebody whose gravestone reads, here lies the man who failed at his life's quest, and yet that failure has given him an incredible life.

我的意思是，作为一名摄影师，他确实得以走遍世界。

I mean, he has, you know, been able to travel the world as a photographer.

他曾经拍摄到其他一些极为稀有的动物，但最初引发他这段旅程的生物，至今仍杳无踪迹。

He's captured other very rare animals on film, but the one creature that started this journey for him remains elusive.

然而对他来说，到头来这根本不算什么困扰。

And yet for him, it doesn't bother him at the end of the day.

我觉得这一点非常令人钦佩，他始终没有放弃这个追求，因为我认为，大多数人的一生都是这样：每天早上起床，列一张清单，想着要在睡觉前完成哪些事情。

And I find something very admirable about that, that he has kept going that he has not given up on this quest because I think, you know, most people in their lives, you get up in the morning and you have a list of things that you wanna check off and accomplish before, you know, you go to bed.

我的意思是，这正是我当初成为记者的原因。

I mean, it's one of the reasons I became a journalist when I was a reporter.

我走进新闻编辑室的时候，

I would go into the newsroom.

写完一篇报道，第二天就会刊登在报纸上。

I would write a story, it would appear in the following day's paper.