如何真正了解他人及人狗情感纽带的科学 - SYSK精选

你必须要有一定程度的信任感。

You gotta feel some level of trust.

你必须要有一定的安全感，才能进入一段真正了解对方的对话。

You have to feel some level of safety to get into a conversation where you really are gonna get to know somebody.

但你还需要掌握这些基本技能。

But you also just need these basic skills.

所以我专注于技能部分，就是教人们如何接近陌生人。

And so that I'm I'm focusing on the skills piece that just to give people the ability to like, how do you approach a stranger?

你该说什么？

What do you what do you say?

如何把握透露自身脆弱性的节奏？

How do you know how quickly or how slowly to unveil some vulnerability about yourself?

这些都只是技巧问题。

These are these are just skills.

那该怎么接近陌生人呢？

So how do you approach a stranger?

你会说什么？

What do you say?

是这样的，你知道，我因为工作需要经常出差做报道。

So, you know, I I for for work, I I travel a lot for doing reporting.

所以我经常会问：你在哪里长大的？

So I often ask, where'd you grow up?

我发现人们都喜欢谈论自己的家乡。

And I find people love to talk about their homes.

有时候如果我知道了对方的名字，我会问：你的名字是怎么来的？

And sometimes if I learn their name, I'll say, well, where'd you get your name?

然后人们就会开始谈论他们的家庭、当时的想法，或者是赋予他们名字的族裔传统。

And then people start talking about their family and what they were thinking about, or maybe their ethnic heritage that gave them their name.

接着聊到童年。

And then childhood.

当人们谈论童年快乐时光时，会展现出非常真实的一面。

People are really real when they're talking about happy moments in their childhoods.

然后我想让每次对话，我的意思是，每次交谈都变成讲故事的形式。

And then what I'm trying to make every storytelling conversation I mean, every conversation a storytelling conversation.

所以我们不只是陈述事实，而是在讲述故事，深入挖掘我们的过去。

So we're not just making statements, but we're telling stories and we're we're going deeper into our past.

你知道吗，我有一次和三四个人的对话中，我问他们：'你身上最有趣但最不重要的事情是什么？'

I, you know, I had one conversation with, like, three or four people and I said, what's the most the most fun unimportant thing about you?

然后我从这位非常严肃的学者那里得知，他其实很爱看低俗的真人秀节目。

And I learned from this very austere academic that he loves trashy reality TV show.

他说这确实很不重要，但这是他有趣的一部分。

And he said that's really unimportant, but I it's part of me that's fun.

接着我开始谈论自己对泰勒·斯威夫特这类歌手的痴迷，以及那些为16岁青少年设计的流行歌曲歌词。

And I started talking about my absurd devotion to people like Taylor Swift and the pop song lyrics that are designed for 16 year olds.

所以基本上，这就是我的音乐品味所在。

So, basically, that's where my musical taste is at.

这大概不重要，但进行这样的对话还挺有趣的。

And that's unimportant, I guess, but it was sort of fun to have that conversation.

我们笑得很开心。

We did a lot of laughing.

这些只是进入他人生活的入口。

And so these are just entry ways into other people's lives.

最后我学到的是：发现他们引以为豪的事情。

And then the final thing I learned is find what they're proud of.

如果他们穿着孩子运动队的T恤，就问问这件T恤，问问孩子的球队。

If they're wearing a t shirt from their kids athletic team, ask about the t shirt, ask about the kid's team.

人们喜欢谈论他们引以为豪的事情。

People love to talk about what they're proud about.

在我看来，善于给予他人认可、理解周围的人、并展现你能让他们感到被点亮和启发的这种能力，这本身就是有益的——而这正是人之为人的本质。

And so it seems to me, it just is beneficial to get really good at offering people recognition, really good at understanding the people around you, and really good at showing you you have this skill that you make them feel lit up and illuminated, and that's the essence of being a human being.

我认为这本身就是一种回报。

I think it's its own reward.

嗯，我真的很感谢这次对话。

Well, I I really appreciate this conversation.

这让你思考，尤其是在节日期间，让你想到生命中遇到的人，以及所有这些人的重要性，每个人都有属于自己的故事。

It makes you think about, especially around the holidays, it makes you think about the people in your life and the people you meet and how important all these people are and everyone has a story.

我一直在与大卫·布鲁克斯交谈。

I've been speaking with David Brooks.

他是《纽约时报》的专栏作家，《大西洋月刊》的撰稿人，还著有《如何认识一个人：深入观察他人并被深刻理解的技巧》一书。

He is an op ed columnist for the New York Times, a writer for the Atlantic, and he's author of a book called how to know a person, the art of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen.

节目说明中有该书的链接。

There's a link to that book in the show notes.

很高兴你能来，大卫。

Great to have you on, David.

感谢你的到来。

Thanks for being here.

谢谢，迈克。

Thanks, Mike.

与你交谈真是无比愉快。

It's been a a total pleasure to be with you.

人类与狗共同生活已有很长历史，这似乎是一种相当不错的搭配。

People and dogs have lived together for a very long time, and it seems to be a pretty good match.

狗与人能建立良好的情感纽带。

Dogs and people bond well.

人们常说养狗让他们的生活更美好。

People often say that having a dog makes their life better.

但由于狗不会真正说话，我们很难知道它们在想什么，如何最好地对待它们，如何真正与狗建立联系，或者该养什么品种、不该养什么品种。

But since dogs don't actually talk, it's hard to know what they're thinking or how best to treat them, how to really connect with a dog or what kind of dog to get or not get.

詹·戈尔贝克是对狗了解最深的人之一。

Well, one person who understands dogs better than most is Jen Golbeck.

她的文章曾发表在《Slate》、《大西洋月刊》、《今日心理学》上，她和丈夫专门收养老龄或有特殊医疗需求的金毛寻回犬。

Her writing has appeared in Slate, The Atlantic, Psychology Today, and she and her husband rescue golden retrievers who are seniors or have special medical needs.

她著有《最纯粹的纽带：理解人与犬的联结》一书。

And she is author of a book called The Purest Bond, Understanding the Human Canine Connection.

你好，詹。

Hi, Jen.

欢迎。

Welcome.

感谢来到《你应该知道的事》节目。

Thanks for coming on Something You Should Know.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

那么我们是否知道人类与狗结伴共处已经有多长时间了？

So do we know how long it's been since dogs and people have been getting together?

以及为什么这种关系如此融洽，它是从何时何地开始的？

And and why does it work so well, and and where and when did it start?

我们与狗作为伴侣动物共同生活已有数百年、数千年的历史，它们何时成为我们现在生活中这样的角色确实是个值得探讨的问题。

We've been living with dogs as companion animals for centuries, thousands of years, and it's a real question of when they became part of our lives that they are now.

但即便在古罗马时期，就有证据显示人们设立了宠物墓地，以类似对待人类的礼遇安葬他们的狗。

But even in ancient Rome, there's evidence of people having pet cemeteries where they buried their dogs with kind of the same honors that they would give to people.

所以这段关系已经持续了相当长时间，尽管显然这种关系是逐步演变的，如今对大多数人而言，狗真正扮演着家庭成员的角色。

So it's been quite a long time, though obvious obviously, it's been an evolving relationship, and now dogs play really a family member role for most of us.

绝大多数养狗的美国人都说它们就像家庭成员一样。

The vast majority of Americans who have dogs say that they're like members of the family.

而我们与狗的这种共同进化——作为相互依赖的物种共同成长——对改变狗类及其与我们的互动方式产生了深远影响，反之亦然。

And and this kind of coevolution that we've had of growing as species to learn to rely on one another has had a really profound way of transforming dogs and how they interact with us and vice versa.

从关于人与狗之间纽带的研究中可以看到，无论是我们的身体健康（如心血管健康、疾病康复），还是明显的精神情感健康，乃至我们与他人的连接方式，狗都能使之改善。

And so what we see if we look at the research about people's bonds with their dogs is that, whether it's our physical health, like our cardiovascular health, recovering from diseases to, obviously, our mental and emotional health to the way we connect with other people, dogs make that better.

我们在研究过程中发现的一个核心主题是：这些益处很大程度上（虽非全部）源于狗能像人类一样为我们提供社会支持。

And one of the themes that really emerged as we were doing the work is that a lot of that benefit, not all of it, but a lot of it, is because dogs provide this social support to us the same way that people do.

心理学文献表明，如果你拥有一个强大的人际网络，有许多亲密朋友，家人关系紧密，被积极的社交互动环绕，生活的各个方面都会因此受益。

So in the psychology literature, we know that if you have a good strong social network, you've got a lot of close friends, your family is close, like, you're really just surrounded by positive social interactions, all parts of your life benefit from that.

研究确实显示，狗狗能够介入并为我们提供部分这样的社会支持。

And the research really shows that dogs are able to step in and provide some of that social support for us.

事实上，我们越是孤立，狗狗的帮助就越大。

In fact, the more isolated we might be, the more dogs help.

它们就像是人类的升级版，让我们能够获得已知社交支持系统所带来的全部益处。

So they are kind of like better versions of humans that allow us to reap all of those benefits that we know having a social support system gives us.

在我看来，近十年、二十年来，人们确实比过去更热衷于养狗了。

It does seem to me that today and over the last, I don't know, ten, twenty years, that that people are more into their dogs than perhaps in the past.

而且我们听说宠物玩具和狗狗用品市场正在爆发式增长，人们为狗狗购买各种物品，把它们当作家庭成员的程度远超以往。

And and we hear that the doggy toy, doggy stuff marketplace is exploding, that people buy all kinds of things for their dog, that they treat them more like a member of the family than in the past.

这个判断准确吗？

Is that a fair assessment or no?

完全正确。

Definitely.

统计数据证实了这一点。

The the statistics bear that out.

多年来，它们越来越成为家庭的一员。

They have grown more to be members of the family over the years.

这是件好事吗？

And is that a good thing?

因为狗终究是狗，把它们当人一样对待，这样好吗？

Because a dog is a dog to and so to treat them like a human, is that a good thing?

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

要知道，将狗拟人化并像对待人类一样对待它们是有风险的，因为它们确实以不同的方式看待和与世界互动。

You know, there are risks that come from anthropomorphizing dogs and treating them like they're humans because they do really see and interact with the world in a different way.

它们的情感能力与人类不同。

Their emotional capabilities are different than humans are.

但如果我们深入研究这些关系，我在为这本书做研究时发现的最喜欢的一项研究表明，我们知道，例如婴儿和母亲会形成所谓的依恋纽带，这些纽带会在我们一生中所有重要的亲密关系中形成，但它们通常始于婴儿与母亲的联结。

But if we get down into the relationships so one of my favorite studies that we found when we were doing the research for this book, is that we know, for example, infants and mothers form things called attachment bonds, and these are bonds that will form in all of our important close relationships for the rest of our lives, but they start generally with infants bonding with their mothers.

这确实非常深刻。

And it's really profound.

它影响着一切，对我们的亲密关系至关重要。

It it impacts everything, and it's necessary for our close relationships.

因此他们用婴儿做过研究，把他们放进功能性磁共振成像机里。

And so they've done studies with infants where they'll put them in fMRI machines.

这些机器能生成显示你大脑哪些区域被激活的图像，然后让他们看到自己的母亲。

These are the things that make the pictures that show which parts of your brain light up, and they'll let them see their mothers.

当婴儿看到母亲时，他们大脑的特定区域会被激活。

And when they see them, a certain part of their brain lights up.

因此我们知道大脑的这个区域与这些极其重要的情感纽带相连，这些纽带本质上存在于我们最亲密的关系中。

So we know that part of the brain is connected to these really important bonds that are there essentially in our most loving relationships.

于是科学家们对狗进行了同样的研究。

So scientists did the same study with dogs.

训练狗狗在功能性磁共振成像仪中保持静止——这本身就很了不起——然后让狗主人靠近，让狗狗能看到和闻到主人，结果狗狗大脑中与婴儿看到母亲时被激活的相同区域也亮了起来。

Trained dogs to lie still in an fMRI, which is impressive on its own, and then they would have the dog's owners come up so the dogs could see them and smell them, and the same part of dogs' brains lit up as lit up in infants when they saw their mothers.

这告诉我们，在深层的神经学层面上，狗对我们的爱就如同婴儿对母亲的爱一样。

And what this tells us is that, like, on a deep, like, neurological level, dogs are feeling love for us the same way that infants do to their mothers.

当然，还有大量研究表明，我们也会与狗形成这种依恋纽带。

And there's, of course, a a plethora of studies that show we also form these attachment bonds back to our dogs.

它们让我们感到安全。

They make us feel safe.

它们很可靠。

They're secure.

我们依赖它们。

We rely on them.

我们向它们倾诉。

We confide in them.

所以不仅仅是人类把狗更多地视为家人或家庭成员。

And so it's not just us as humans treating dogs more like people or members of the family.

从生物学层面来看，我们和狗对彼此的反应方式与家庭成员之间的互动非常相似。

On a biological level, we both, dogs and humans, respond to each other in ways that are very similar to how family members do.

因此我认为这是一个非常积极的进化，开始认识到这种关系的重要性和深刻性。

So I think it's been a really positive evolution, like starting to recognize the importance and the depth that that relationship can have.

但有些人就是不喜欢狗。

But there are people who are just not dog people.

你知道，他们根本不在乎或者不喜欢狗，诸如此类。

You know, they they just couldn't care less or they don't like dogs or or whatever.

嗯，我想人各有志吧。

And, you know, I mean, to each his own, I guess.

但这怎么会让你困扰呢？怎么会有人不喜欢狗呢？

But but what what does that bother you that, like, how can you not like dogs?

我在约会生活中就学到了一课：绝不和不喜欢狗的人交往。

I mean, I certainly learned in my dating life to never date people who aren't into dogs.

我曾尝试过一次，结果简直是场灾难。

I tried that once, and it was a disaster.

所以在这方面确实需要三观相合。

So, there is a world outlook that should be shared there.

不过我觉得这也没什么。

But, you know, I think it's okay.

不是每个人都必须喜欢狗，这很正常。

Like, you can not be a dog person, and, you know, it's not for everyone.

但如果你有兴趣，认为自己有时间、有耐心，并愿意与另一个生命建立这种家庭关系，这种深厚联结能带来非常深远的益处。

But if it is something that you're interested in, you think you have the time, the patience, and you wanna put together this kind of family relationship with another being, there's really profound benefits that you can get from having that really deep connection.

包括我在内的很多人都听说过养狗有好处。

Well, people, and myself included, have heard that having a dog has benefits.

它能让你更健康。

It makes you healthier.

我不确定我是否完全理解这其中的关联。

And I'm not sure I necessarily understand the connection.

我的意思是，没错，如果你遛狗的话，你会多出门走走，但肯定不止这么简单。

I mean, yes, if you're walking your dog, you're out walking more, but, you know, but it's got to be more than that.

那么养狗具体有哪些健康益处呢？

So what are the benefits, the health benefits of having a dog?

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因当然是它们让我们更常出门。

So some of it certainly is they get us outside more.

它们让我们走得更勤。

They get us walking more.

我们研究中发现一个有趣的小现象：养狗的人即使不遛狗时，走路也比别人多。

An interesting little tidbit from the from the research that we did is that people who have dogs walk more even when they're not walking with their dogs.

所以，当然啦，你得去遛狗。

So, like, of course, you gotta go walk your dog.

这样你会走更多的路。

That's gonna get you more steps.

但即使去掉遛狗的部分，他们依然会走更多路。

But if you remove the dog walks, they still walk more.

我们认为这种现象的原因是，散步本身其实是件相当愉悦的活动，而且户外活动对我们确实很有好处。

And the reason we think that happens is because walking is actually, like, a pretty pleasant activity, and being outside is really good for us.

养狗某种程度上让我们开始了这种习惯，但实际上可能会让我们更愿意多走动，这是个挺有意思的小发现。

And the dog kinda gets us started with that, but actually may make us wanna do it more anyway, which is a a kind of interesting tidbit.

但除此之外，无论是情绪健康、心理健康、身体健康还是社交关系方面，我们都看到养狗能带来相当一致的益处。

But aside from that, you know, whether we're looking at emotional health, mental health, or physical health and social connections, we see pretty consistent benefits from dogs.

就像我之前提到的，部分原因是它们确实提供了这种社会支持，我们知道这对从癌症或心脏病康复（显然）到各种心理健康问题都有帮助。

Some of that, like I mentioned earlier, is because they do provide this kind of social support, which we know helps in everything from recovery from cancer or heart attacks, obviously, to all kinds of mental health issues.

狗狗不会评判你。

Dogs are nonjudgmental.

它们永远陪伴在我们身边。

They're always there for us.

人们总是向狗狗倾诉心事。

People confide in their dogs all the time.

他们会和狗狗说话。

They talk to their dogs.

他们会告诉狗狗一些不愿告诉别人的秘密。

They tell dogs secrets that they wouldn't tell other people.

所以这是其中非常重要的一部分。

So that's a really important part of it.

但它们也能帮助我们养成更健康的习惯。

But they also, you know, help us practice healthier habits.

举个例子，如果你带狗去看兽医，兽医说你的狗有点超重需要节食，这往往也会让我们吃得更好，因为我们会把注意力集中在'好吧'。

So, for example, if you go to the vet and the vet says your dog's a little overweight, you need to put them on a diet, that tends to make us also respond eating better because we're kind of focused on, okay.

这是我们为了照顾这个我们深爱的小家伙必须做的事情。

This is a thing we have to do to take care of this creature that we love so much.

因此我们也会在生活中自然而然地采纳一些这样的习惯。

So we're also kind of pick up on some of that in our own lives.

而且和它们相处本身就是一种快乐，而更快乐的状态会让你更健康。

And they're just kind of a joy to be around, and being happier makes you healthier.

当然，关于这方面的科学研究会变得非常复杂和深入。

So, you know, the science, of course, gets, like, very complicated and deep on all of this.

但本质上，这可以归结为——这些积极的力量总想促使你做各种对健康有益的事，而这些事往往也会让你感觉更好。

But, essentially, it comes down to, like, having these really positive forces who want you to do all sorts of things that are healthy for you anyway tend to make you feel better.

对于那些认为'并非所有狗都一样'的人，你会说些什么？

What do you say to people who like think because not all dogs are the same.

所以，你可能和这只狗相处得很好，但那只狗并不适合你。

So, you know, you might get along great with this dog, but this dog is not your kind of dog.

人们选择养狗有各种理由，但我不确定这些理由是否合理，或者说该如何决定养什么品种的狗？

People, you know, choose dogs for all kinds of reasons, but I don't know if those are good reasons or or how do you decide what kind of dog to get?

这非常重要。

It's so important.

要知道，我救助金毛寻回犬，我们救助组织接收的很多狗狗往往是在九月份进来的，因为它们当初是被作为圣诞礼物买来的小狗崽，因为我觉得没有什么比金毛幼犬更可爱的了。

You know, I rescue golden retrievers and a lot of dogs that we see come into the rescue group are dogs often who come in in September, and that's because they were bought as puppies as Christmas presents because there is nothing cuter than a golden retriever puppy, I think.

于是它们就这样来到新家。

And so they'll come home.

它们头上还系着小蝴蝶结。

They get a little bow on their head.

它们被装在圣诞树下的礼盒里。

They're in a box under the tree.

它们只有12磅重，可爱极了。

They weigh 12 pounds, and they're great.

不过有句话说，金毛犬在三个月大之前是可爱的小毛球，但从三个月到三岁期间就会变成迅猛龙。

And then, you know, it's sometimes said of golden retrievers that they're that cute little puppy up to three months, and then they turn into a velociraptor from about three months until three years old.

它们见什么咬什么。

They just chomp on everything.

体型也会变得很大。

They get big.

它们太疯狂了。

They're crazy.

它们的精力旺盛得难以控制。

Their energy is wild.

而那些家庭购买它们只是因为它们是可爱的小狗，比如喜欢金毛寻回犬这个概念，却没有准备好每天遛狗、带它跑步、玩接球游戏来消耗它的精力，也没有真正训练它们。六个月后，他们得到的是一只完全失控的大型犬，运动量不足，主人没时间照顾，可能还会撞倒孩子，于是他们开始把狗关在笼子里，导致狗狗的精力更无处发泄。

And in families that bought it because it's a cute puppy and, like, they like the idea of a golden retriever, say, and that aren't prepared to walk that dog and run the dog and play fetch with the dog and burn that energy off and really train them, what they end up with after six months is a big dog who's totally out of control, who's not getting exercised enough, who they don't have time for, that's maybe knocking their kids over, and then they'll start crating the dog so the dog really doesn't get the energy out.

当它从笼子里出来时，简直就成了家里的破坏王。

And then when it comes out of the crate, it's just a monster in the house.

如果你选择一只能量水平与你准备提供的训练相匹配、或你能驾驭的狗狗，所有这些情况都可以避免。

All of that's a thing that can be avoided if you pick a dog who has the energy level that needs the kind of training that you're prepared to give or that can be handled.

对吧？

Right?

你可以抱起一只小狗。

You can pick up a little dog.

但你抱不起一只金毛。

You can't pick up a golden.

所以如果有人要选狗，你真的需要考虑清楚，你有什么设施可以带它们出去。

And so if somebody's picking a dog, you really need to think about, you know, what kind of facilities do you have to take them out.

你有院子可以让它们玩耍吗？

Do you have a yard that they can play in?

你有可以遛狗的公园吗？

Do you have a park that you can walk them to?

如果你住在公寓里，你愿意每天这样做两三次吗？

Do you wanna be doing that two or three times a day if you're in an apartment?

你有钱请遛狗人吗？

Do you have the money for a dog walker?

你想要一只懒散的狗吗？

Do you want a couch potato?

你想要一个能陪你跑步的伙伴吗？

Do you want someone to run with?

想想这些狗会如何改变你的生活。

Thinking about what is your life gonna look like with these dogs.

我认为很多时候人们养狗失败，无论是自己失败还是让狗失败，或两者兼有，都是因为他们选择狗的标准是‘这狗看起来很酷’，或者受到某些文化观念影响，而这些观念实际上与他们的生活方式并不匹配。

And I think a lot of times people fail at owning dogs, either fail themselves or fail the dogs or both, is because they've picked based on this dog looks cool or, you know, there's some cultural attitude that comes along with it that doesn't really match up with their lifestyle.

说到狗和超重的问题，因为我听说现在超重的狗比以往任何时候都多。

Talk about dogs and being overweight, because I hear that there are a lot more dogs today than ever before who are overweight.

是的。

Yeah.

给它们零食太容易了，而且它们当然很喜欢。

It's so easy to give them snacks, and, of course, they love it.

这是我们遇到的一个有趣问题，比如在我们救助的狗狗刚来时，其中一些会显得非常瘦弱。

And this is an an interesting problem that we see, for example, in the dogs that we rescue when they come in is that some of them will be emaciated.

对吧？

Right?

它们没有被喂食，但也有很多狗狗来时严重超重。

They haven't been fed, but a lot of them also come in profoundly overweight.

我们接收过一只狗狗，自从来到我们这里已经减掉了近50磅，但它现在仍然是个大块头。

We took in a dog who is who's lost almost 50 pounds since we've him, and he's still a big boy.

但它某种程度上被完全忽视，然后被喂食餐桌剩饭，只是为了让它别来烦人。

But he was kinda neglected in all ways and then fed table scraps to kinda get him to leave him alone.

所以，无论是出于爱还是忽视，狗狗超重的情况一点都不罕见。

So, you know, whether it's through love or neglect, it's not at all uncommon for dogs to be overweight.

我们在为这本书做研究时发现一些有趣的现象，其中之一是狗的体重往往会模仿主人的体重。

And some interesting work that we found in doing the research for the book, one is that dog weight will often mimic their human's weight.

如果主人开始超重或体重增加，他们的狗往往也会跟着增重。

So if a human is getting overweight or is gaining weight, their dog will tend to gain weight with them.

你可以想象一下，比如狗就坐在那里看着我们吃东西。

And you can imagine, like, the dog is sitting there watching us eat.

对吧？

Right?

它们经常能吃到我们食物的一小部分。

They're getting little bits often of of what we're having.

或者，你知道，如果我们觉得，哦天啊。

Or, you know, if we feel like, oh gosh.

比如，我现在好饿，而狗狗看起来也饿了，虽然我不知道它是不是真饿。

Like, I'm so hungry right now, and the dog also looks hungry, which I don't know.

我的狗看起来总是很饿。

My dog look hungry all the time.

如果我想吃零食，可能也会给狗狗来点零食。

If I wanna have a snack, maybe I'll give the dog a snack too.

所以它们的体重往往会反映我们的体重，这并不奇怪。

So it's not super surprising that their weight tends to mirror ours.

还有一些非常有趣的研究表明，无论是人还是狗需要减肥，或者两者都需要，如果一起进行往往会取得更好的效果。

There's also some really interesting research that's been done that if you need either the human or the dog or both to lose weight, we tend to do better if we do it together.

有一项很棒的研究，让需要减肥的人与他们的超重狗一起参与减肥计划，有时狗单独执行减肥计划，有时人与狗一起执行。

There was a great study that had, people put on a weight loss plan who also had overweight dogs, and then the dogs were sometimes put on a weight loss weight loss plan, or you put them on a plan together.

那些与狗一起执行减肥计划的人，比那些单独执行计划或只有狗执行计划的人减掉了更多体重。

And the people who went on weight loss plans with their dog lost more weight than people who were just given a plan by themselves or people whose dogs were given a plan.

所以你会得到一个毛茸茸又充满热情的队友陪你一起减肥。

So you kinda get, like, a a fluffy enthusiastic teammate to go along with you.

这真是个非常有趣的关联，对吧？关于我们自己的体重和狗狗的体重是如何相互影响的，以及随之而来的所有影响。

And it's just a really interesting connection, right, about how our own weight and our dog's weight is tied together, and all of the implications that come with that.

我猜这方面已经有研究了，我自己就有这样的经历：先养了一只狗，后来又养了一只。

I imagine there's been some research into there is I've had this experience of having a dog and then getting another one.

然后一切都变了。

And everything changes.

整个动态都不同了。

The dynamics change.

后来又养了第三只狗，一切又再次改变。增加其他狗狗，甚至是猫咪之类的，真的会改变家里的氛围。

And then got a third dog and everything changed again, that there's something about adding other dogs or even other cats or whatever that changes the what goes on in the house.

我很难准确描述，但你应该明白我的意思。

It's I can't really describe it, but you know what I mean.

我经常告诉别人，我有五只狗，这确实很多。

I always tell people, you know, I have five dogs, which is a lot.

我们最多的时候养过七只。

So we've had as many as seven.

但我总是告诉人们，养两只狗比养一只容易多了，因为两只狗可以互相作伴，

But I always tell people, like, two dogs is way easier than one dog because two dogs will entertain each other, and

这样你就不用

so you don't have to be

承担所有逗乐它们的责任。

the one doing all of the entertaining.

一旦超过四只，家里狗比人手还多，事情就会以不同的方式变得复杂起来。

Once you get above four, you know, then we have more dogs than hands in the house, and so things things get complicated in different ways.

不过，它们彼此之间的社交互动确实非常复杂。

But, yeah, they have really complicated social interactions with each other.

有趣的是，并不像很多人想的那样。

Interestingly, not the way that a lot of people think.

我认为很长一段时间里，我们都被灌输了一种观念，比如存在所谓的'阿尔法'领袖。

I think for a very long time, we were sort of fed this line about, you know, there's an alpha.

至今仍有人问我这个问题。

People still ask me this.

你家谁是领头狗？

Who's the alpha dog in your house?

你知道的，就是那种严格的等级制度。

You know, that there's this strict ranking.

大部分相关研究都已被推翻。

Most of that work has been debunked.

这根本不是狗在家庭或彼此之间自然相处的方式。

It's just not naturally how dogs live in a house or or with each other.

最初的研究是在非常人为、强迫的环境下进行的，那些狗通过建立等级制度来应对充满压力的虐待生活。

The original research on that was in, like, very contrived, kind of forced situations where where dogs were kind of compensating for a very stressful kind of abusive life by setting up this hierarchy.

在家里，狗是作为家庭成员生活的。

In a house, dogs live as family members.

所以，有些可能更强势，有些更顺从，但它们并没有那种等级制度。

So, you know, some may be more dominant and some more submissive, but they don't really have that hierarchy.

对人来说也是如此。

And the same goes with people.

我们倾向于像人类家庭成员那样生活。

We we tend to live as, you know, as human family members do.

这意味着它们之间有各种各样的互动，希望这些互动是良性的。

And so that means they have all kinds of interactions with each other, and, hopefully, they're good.

但并非总是如此，我们遇到过互相厌恶的狗，不得不将它们分开，这可不是什么愉快的事。

They aren't always you know, we've had dogs who hate each other and, like, have to be separated, and that's not any fun.

不过确实，它们都有自己独特的相处模式。

But, yeah, they all have their their own dynamics.

所以每当引入新成员时——我们家只养狗，但如果是其他宠物的话——有时会带来压力。

And so anytime you introduce a new one or, you you know, we're a dog dog only household, but certainly other pets, sometimes that brings stress.

有时则会带来新玩伴的快乐与幸福，但这肯定会改变原有的动态关系。

Sometimes it brings great joy and happiness in a new playmate, but it definitely shifts the dynamics.

对我们来说，在决定哪些寄养犬可能永久留下、哪些要送养时，几乎完全取决于它们与现有狗群的相处情况。

And for us, you know, when we're deciding which of these dogs we foster maybe are gonna stay permanently and which ones do we adopt out, almost the entire decision comes down to how well did they fit in with our current squad of dogs.

它们能和睦相处吗？

Do they all get along?

大家都能相处融洽吗？还是说它们或许在其他地方会更快乐，比如和不同的狗一起，或者少一些狗，甚至可能是单独一只。

Is everybody able to be mellow, Or would they maybe be happier someplace either with different dogs, fewer dogs maybe is the only one.

所有的狗都能被训练吗？

Are all dogs trainable?

因为我...你知道我遇到过一些养狗的人，他们会说'我们试过了，但它太笨了，什么都不肯做'。

Because I you I know you have come across people that have dogs that like, oh, we've tried, and she's just so stupid that she just she won't do anything.

它不肯停止吠叫。

She won't stop barking.

它不肯追球。

She won't chase the ball.

你会怎么说这种情况？

She what do you say?

我认为所有的狗在某种程度上都是可以训练的。

So I think all dogs are trainable to a certain degree.

我不认为有哪只狗连最基本的规矩都学不会。

I don't think there's any dog that can't learn some really basic manners.

我们基本上训练到家庭生活所需的最低标准，让它们能正常活动。

We kind of train to, like, the lowest necessary level in the house to, like, be able to function.

所以我们的狗基本上都能在被叫时过来坐下。

So our dogs can all, like, basically come when they're called and sit.

我还没教会它们在听到指令时停止吠叫，因为它们确实比我期望的更爱叫。

I've I have yet to treat them teach them to shut off when I tell them to because they do bark more than I like.

但你可以训练它们转移注意力。

But you can teach them to disrupt their attention.

对吧？

Right?

如果它们对着某物吠叫，你应该能把它们叫回来。

If they're barking at something, you should be able to call them away from that.

我养过一些倔强的狗，它们几乎不愿意按我们的要求做，但我就是爱它们这一点。

I've had stubborn dogs who barely will do what we ask them to do, and I love them for that.

你知道的，它们各有各的性格。

You know, they have different personalities.

要知道，有些狗确实比其他狗更聪明。

You know, some are certainly smarter than others.

有些狗特别想讨好主人，有些则只想我行我素，根本不在乎你说什么。

Some really wanna please more than others, and some just wanna do their own thing, and they don't care what you say.

我从未遇到过完全无法训练的狗。

I've never run into a dog that couldn't be trained at all.

在与一些专业训犬师合作时（我们不得不为那些特别疯的狗请训犬师），我学到的是：在这些困难案例中，很多训练其实是训练人类要做得更好，因为你知道，你并不想对狗大喊大叫。

And in working with some professional trainers, which we've had to do for some of these really crazy dogs, you know, what I've learned is that a lot of the training that has to happen in those difficult cases is training the humans to be better, because, you know, you either don't wanna yell at the dog.

你生气其实没什么用，如果你只是对他们大喊大叫发脾气的话。

You get angry, which is really ineffective if you, you know, just, like, yell at them and and be angry.

那样通常无济于事，但这并不意味着你不能阻止他们做破坏性或不好的事。

That's that's often not gonna do anything, but that doesn't mean you can't stop them from doing something that's destructive or bad.

所以要教会人们，嘿，

So teaching people, hey.

当你的狗开始出现这种不良行为时，比如你一进门他们就扑上来，你必须用不同于以往的方式来应对。

When your dog starts doing this bad behavior, say they jump up on you when you come in the door, you have to respond in a different way than you have.

这通常是你唯一需要做的，就能让狗狗正确回应，因为它们和我们有着相似的心理机制。

That often is the only thing that you need to do to then get the dog to respond properly because they have psychology like us.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果你撤除它们期待获得的奖励，它们很快就能明白只有用正确的方式行事才能得到回报。

So if you take away the reward that they're looking for, they're really quickly gonna figure out that they'll only get it if they do things the right way.

这并不意味着你会训练出一只达到犬展水平的狗，但只要你投入努力，至少能让它们掌握基本指令。

That doesn't mean you're gonna have, you know, a a dog show level trained dog, but you can get them to at least do the basics if you put the work in.

你对纯种犬和收容所混种犬的问题持什么立场？

Where do you come down on the issue of purebred versus pound mutt?

我喜欢所有的狗。

So I like all dogs.

有人称我为品种主义者，因为我们通常只收养金毛寻回犬。

I have been called a breedist because we tend to just take in golden retrievers.

你知道，那是因为我喜欢它们的性格。

You know, that's because I love their personality.

我是和它们一起长大的。

I grew up with them.

我喜欢它们那种又大又憨、喜欢到处跑跳，和我兴趣相投的样子。

I like that they're, you know, big and goofy and and run around and like to do all the kinds of things I do.

我觉得我们性格很合得来。

I think we have a good personality match.

不过说真的，为此我们可没少遭罪。

That said, man, do we suffer for it.

金毛犬特别容易得癌症。

Golden retrievers, are really prone to cancer.

它们的寿命都不长。

They don't live long lives.

还总有一大堆骨科问题，我们得不断应付这些。

They have lots of orthopedic issues, and we are constantly dealing that.

我们专门收养年老病弱的狗，但过去三四年里已经失去了10只，我想基本都是因为癌症。

You know, we take in old and sick dogs, but I think we've lost 10 in the last three or four years, all of them to cancer, I think.

所以如果你养的是混种犬，比如所谓的'海因茨57'或'超级杂种狗'，它们确实存在很多缺点，但不会出现同样的问题，因为它们的基因多样性更强。

So there's a lot of drawbacks where if you get, you know, a mixed breed, a Heinz 57, right, a Super Mutt, they they don't come with the same kinds of problems because they are more genetically diverse.

因此，混种犬实际上可能更健康、寿命更长。

And so you can have a dog that actually will be healthier and live longer, if they're a mixed breed.

所以我觉得这很棒。

And so, you know, I think that's great.

话虽如此，我依然热爱那些毛茸茸的金毛笑脸，而且我已经决定接受它们以及随之而来的所有问题。

That said, you know, I still still love the golden fluffy faces, and I'm kind of committed to them and all the problems that come with it.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实是人们立场鲜明的问题——要么去收容所领养，要么购买纯种犬，似乎没什么争议空间。不过我养的都是杂种狗，除了现在这只有点笨，实在不算聪明（虽然它很努力）。

Well, that's that's certainly it's certainly a thing that people feel seem to feel pretty strong about one way or the other that that they either they're gonna go get a dog from the pound or they're gonna get a purebred and and they there's not a lot of debate it seems, but I've always had mutts and and have done pretty well except my my current dog is kind of stupid and she really just not that bright, but she does her best.

但老天爷啊。

But man, oh, man.

这也引出了最痛苦的问题——作为爱狗人士，养狗最糟糕的部分莫过于它们总会比你先离开这个世界。

But that brings up the the issue though of, you know, one of the worst parts, probably the worst part of having a dog if you're a dog person, is when they die, and and they're gonna die before you are most likely.

对此你有什么想说的？

And what what do you say to that?

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，这太难了。

I mean, it it's so hard.

我想在这里补充几点。

And I guess a couple things to add in here.

其一是，当你真的失去它们时，你是对的。

One is that, when you do lose them, you know, you're right.

那是最痛苦的事。

It's the it's the worst thing.

心理学家将我们对狗狗的哀悼方式描述为'被剥夺的悲伤'，这是个正式术语，意思是社会不会给你足够的空间来宣泄你情感上需要表达的哀伤。

And psychologists refer to the way that we grieve dogs or part one of the descriptors is that it's disenfranchised grief, which is a formal term, and it just means society doesn't give you room to mourn the way that you emotionally feel like you need to.

我们在人类身上也能看到这种现象，比如当亲人因吸毒过量或自杀去世时，社会会认为这是他们自找的，因此你不该以同样的方式悼念他们。

We see it in humans if you have a loved one who died of, like, a drug overdose or suicide where society acts like they kind of brought that on themselves, and so you shouldn't mourn them in the same way.

我们在面对狗狗离世时也同样经历着社会的不理解。

We also experience that with dogs where society doesn't give us room.

我们没有相应的哀悼仪式，但研究显示，失去狗狗的平均哀伤期是六到十二个月，这种痛苦程度不亚于失去至亲。

We don't have the rituals around grieving, but we know from the research that the average grieving process for a dog is six to twelve months, that we feel that loss as much as we feel the loss of the closest family members in our lives.

这是非常深重的失去。

It's a very profound loss.

而且，你知道，我有几只狗狗去世后的几个月里，我经常走在街上就突然哭起来。

And, you know, I know with some of my dogs for months after they've died, I'd just be walking down the street and start crying.

就像，毫无预兆地。

Like, no no provocation.

它就这么突然开始了。

It would just start.

你不应该感到羞耻，尽管社会会让你产生那种感觉。

You shouldn't feel ashamed because society will kinda make you feel that way.

你应该接纳它，而我确实已经开始将这种强烈悲痛带来的痛苦视为一种值得感激的经历，尽管过程一点都不好受。

You should embrace that, and I I have really started to treat the pain of that grief, which is really intense, is something that I am grateful for even though it's not at all fun to go through.

这确实反映了与狗狗的那段关系有多么重要。

It it really reflects how important that relationship with the dog was.

而且你知道吗，如果我没有感受到如此强烈的痛苦，那几乎是对我们之间关系的不尊重，所以我试着以感恩之心接纳它，尽管这仍然非常艰难。

And, you know, if I didn't feel such intense pain, like, it would almost be dishonoring the relationship that we have, and so I try to take it with gratitude even though it's still really hard.

嗯，我是个爱狗人士。

Well, I'm a dog person.

其实我是个动物爱好者。

Well, I'm an animal person.

我是说，我就是喜欢宠物，所以听到有人比我更了解这种关系如何运作、为何如此有益且吸引人，总是很有趣。

I mean, I I just I like pets, and and so it's always fun to hear somebody who knows a lot more than I do about it, how the whole relationship works and why it's so rewarding and appealing.

我一直在和珍·戈尔贝克交谈。

I've been talking with Jen Golbeck.

她是《理解人与犬类的关系》一书的作者。

She's author of a book called The Understanding the Human Canine Connection.

节目说明里有这本书的链接。

There's a link to that book in the show notes.

这真是太棒了。

This was great.

我真的很感激。

I really appreciate it.

谢谢你的参与，Jen。

Thanks for coming on, Jen.

这次谈话非常愉快。

It was so fun.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我猜你可能听过这个建议：如果手机或其他电子设备进水了，应该把它放进大米里。

I'm sure you've probably heard that recommendation that if your phone or some other electronic device gets wet, you should stick it in rice.

关于是否真的应该这样做，或者这可能不是个好主意，存在一些争议。

And there's some debate about whether you really should do that or not or maybe that's not such a good idea.

嘿，为什么不试试呢？

I hey, why not?

为什么不呢？

Why not?

但还有一种食物可能效果更好。

But there is another food that might even work better.

来自Gizmodo的Brent Rose说米花糖效果更佳。

Brent Rose from Gizmodo says that rice Krispies are better.

它们比生米吸收液体更快更彻底。

They suck up liquid faster and more aggressively than uncooked rice.

他建议你拿个新盒子，把手机塞进去，放置48小时。

He suggests you grab a fresh box, jam your phone in there, and leave it for forty eight hours.

时不时转动一下盒子里的设备，但要忍住测试或开机的冲动。

Rotate the device inside the box every now and again, but resist the urge to test it or turn it on.

Brent说大约48小时后，把手机从米花糖里取出来。

Brent says after forty eight hours or so, remove your phone from the Rice Krispies.

如果发现还有潮湿迹象，比如屏幕起雾，就再放回去一次。

And if you see any signs of moisture still in there, like fog on the screen, put it back in there one more time.

如果看起来已经完全干燥了，就把电池装回去，希望它能开机。

If it looks bone dry, put the battery pack in and hopefully it'll turn on.

这就是你应该知道的小窍门。

And that is something you should know.

你知道吗，这里透露一点播客行业的幕后情况。

You know, here's a little peek behind the curtain of the podcasting business.

过去一个月左右，虽然没人能解释原因，但整体上播客收听量出现了下滑。

In the last month or so, there has been, and no one can explain it, but there's been like a downturn in podcast listening just overall across the board.

大家可能都太忙了之类的。

Everyone is busy or something.

所以帮我们扭转这个局面吧。

So help us turn that around.

我们有数百期往期节目库存，我知道你会对这些播客内容感兴趣的。

We have a back catalog of episodes, hundreds of episodes of this podcast I know you would find interesting.

它们都是经久不衰的经典内容。

They are still relevant evergreen episodes.

趁着假期时间听听往期的节目，播的聊到天南地北。

Spend some time around the holidays and listen to some of the back catalog.

我想你会非常享受的，这对我们也有帮助。

I think you'll really enjoy it, and it would help us.

我是迈克·卡拉瑟斯。

I'm Mike Carruthers.

感谢你今天收听《你应该知道的事》。

Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

《无限猴笼》即将回归。

The infinite monkey cage returns imminently.

我是罗伯特·英斯，坐在我旁边的是布莱恩·考克斯，他有好多关于新一季内容的精彩故事要分享。

I am Robert Ince, and I'm sat next to Brian Cox who has so much to tell you about what's on the new series.

主要是鳗鱼。

Primarily eels.

还有别的吗？

And what else?

鳗鱼真是太迷人了。

That it was fascinating, the eels.

但我们不光是讲鳗鱼，对吧？

But we're not just doing eels, are we?

我们会涉及脑机接口、计时学、核聚变、猴子把戏、北极云科学，还有鳗鱼。

We're doing a bit with brain computer interfaces, timekeeping, fusion, monkey business, cloud science of the North Pole, and EELS.

我提过鳗鱼了吗？

Did I mention the EELS?

是不是自从你在马尾藻海底买了分时度假屋后就一直这样？

Is this ever since you bought that time share underneath the Sargasso Sea?

请在bbc.com或你获取播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.