我们与机器人的奇妙关系及自信是什么？ - SYSK精选

如果你喜欢了解一些你本不知道的事情，那你很可能是一个充满好奇心、喜欢探索世界的人。

If you like something you should know, you're probably a curious person who enjoys learning about the world.

如果你正在寻找更多学习的机会，那你应该了解一下TED出品的播客《如何成为更好的人》。

And if you're looking for more places to learn, you should know about a podcast from TED called How to Be a Better Human.

主持人克里斯·达菲最近曾做客这里，谈论他为何热爱笑声，以及如何在日常生活中发现更多笑声。

The host, Chris Duffy, was recently a guest here talking about why he loves laughter and how you can find more of it in your everyday life.

在《如何成为更好的人》中，克里斯采访了科学家、专家和TED演讲者，探讨各种有趣且实用的主题，比如你的狗如何感知世界、如何停止无休止的负面信息刷屏，以及如何找到更深层的归属感。

On how to be a better human, Chris interviews scientists, experts, and Ted speakers about fascinating practical topics from how your dog experiences the world to how to stop doom scrolling to how to find a deeper sense of belonging.

你可以在任何收听播客的平台找到《如何成为更好的人》。

You can find how to be a better human wherever you listen to podcasts.

今天在《你该知道的事》中，我们来聊一个看似简单、但若准备不足就可能让你措手不及的面试问题。

Today on something you should know, a simple job interview question that could really trip you up if you're not prepared.

然后是机器人。

Then robots.

我们喜欢它们。

We like them.

我们能与它们产生共鸣。

We relate to them.

我们有点控制不住自己。

We sorta can't help ourselves.

让我这么说吧。

Let me put it this way.

如果你有一个机器人，它对你说：我爱你。

If you have a robot and it says to you, I love you.

你真美。

You're beautiful.

当你听到这些话时，大脑中活跃的区域和听到伴侣说这些话时是一样的。

The same parts of your brain light up when you hear those words as they would if your significant other said them.

另外，你上次做眼睛检查是什么时候？

Also, when was your last eye exam?

还有自信。

And confidence.

这很有吸引力。

It's attractive.

你可能希望拥有更多，但我们其实并不确切知道它是什么。

You'd probably like to have more of it, but we actually don't know exactly what it is.

对于自信到底是什么，目前还没有共识。

There is no consensus as to what confidence really looks like.

如果你仔细想想，它取决于观察者的眼光。

If you think about it, it is in the eye of the beholder.

所以，别再纠结于让每个人都喜欢你、认为你自信了，做真实的自己就好。

So release yourself from the judgment of having everybody love you and everyone think you're confident by just being who you are.

以上所有内容，尽在《你该知道的事》。

All this today on Something You Should Know.

啊，摄政时期。

Ah, the Regency era.

你可能知道，那是《布里奇顿》的故事背景，也是简·奥斯汀创作小说的年代。

You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, or as the time when Jane Austen wrote her books.

摄政时期也是一个社会变革、性丑闻频发的时期，或许还是英国历史上最糟糕的国王统治的时代。

The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history.

《粗俗历史》的新一季将全面聚焦摄政时期——舞会、礼服与所有丑闻。

Vulgar History's new season is all about the Regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal.

在您收听播客的任何平台，都可以收听《粗俗历史》摄政时期系列。

Listen to Vulgar History Regency era wherever you get podcasts.

您应该知道的事——引人入胜的资讯、世界顶尖专家的见解，以及您在生活中能实际运用的建议。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

今天，由迈克·卡鲁瑟斯为您带来您应该知道的事。

Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

在成千上万、数以百万计的播客中，您能选择收听这一个——《您应该知道的事》，我真感到无比高兴。

Out of the literally millions, millions of podcasts you could be listening to right now, I am so happy you have chosen to listen to this one, Something You Should Know.

本集发布于一月，而这一年中的这个时候，许多人正在寻找新工作。

This episode is publishing in January, and that's the time of year many people look for a new job.

如果您正在找新工作，并且到了要参加面试的阶段，您很可能会被问到一个非常普遍的问题，而这个问题难倒了很多人。

And if you're looking for a new job and you get to the point of going in for an interview, there is a really common question you are likely to be asked that trips up a lot of people.

这个问题是：为什么我要雇用你？

And the question is, why should I hire you?

这是面试中最可预测的问题之一，但太多求职者对此毫无准备。

It's one of the most predictable questions in a job interview, and far too many applicants aren't prepared for it.

也许他们花了时间练习自己五年后的去向，或者想拥有哪些超能力。

Perhaps they have spent time rehearsing where they'll be in five years or what what superpowers they would like to possess.

因此，《福布斯》杂志的职业专家认为，这个相对简单的提问——为什么我要雇用你？——实际上是最难回答的问题之一。

That's why the career experts at Forbes Magazine consider this relatively easy question, why should I hire you, to be one of the most difficult.

如果你在回答这个问题时结结巴巴、语无伦次，那会严重降低你获得这份工作的机会。

If you stumble or stutter your way through the answer to that question, you are really hurting your chances of getting that job.

所以一定要仔细阅读职位描述，并为‘为什么我要雇用你？’这个问题准备好一个出色的答案。

So be sure to review the job description carefully and have a really good answer to that question, why should I hire you?

这就是你应当知道的事情。

And that is something you should know.

正如你可能已经注意到的，越来越多的机器人正融入我们的生活。

As you may have noticed, more and more robots are becoming part of our lives.

如果你拥有一个Roomba扫地机器人或一个Alexa，那你就有了一台机器人。

If you have a Roomba vacuum cleaner or an Alexa, you have a robot.

有趣的是，我们人类是如何对待机器人的。

And it's interesting how we humans treat robots.

我的意思是，你想一想。

I mean, think about it.

如果你有一个Alexa音箱，而Alexa是一台机器人，你有没有向她道过谢？

If you have an Alexa speaker, and Alexa is a robot, have you ever thanked her?

你知道的，当你问她天气预报，或者让她设置计时器时，她照做了，你就向她道谢。

You know, you ask her the weather forecast or ask her to set a timer, and she does, and you thank her.

很多人都是这样做的。

Lots of people do.

但为什么呢？

But why?

她只不过是一台机器。

She's just a machine.

嗯，这正是你要听到的问题的一部分。

Well, that is part of this problem, as you're about to hear.

人类倾向于将机器人视为人并与之互动，而且人类很可能服从机器人，认为它们比人类更聪明。

Human beings are inclined to relate to and treat robots as people, and human beings are likely to defer to robots and assume they're smarter than a human.

我知道这听起来很奇怪，所以你需要听听伊芙·哈罗尔德的说法。

I know it sounds weird, which is why you need to listen to Eve Harrowld.

她是一位获奖的科学作家和科学与医学领域的顾问，著有《机器人与爱它们的人：在社交机器人时代坚守人性》一书。

She is an award winning science writer and consultant in the scientific and medical world, and she's author of a book called Robots and the People Who Love Them, Holding On to Our Humanity in an Age of Social Robots.

嗨，伊芙。

Hi, Eve.

欢迎来到《你应该知道的事》。

Welcome to Something You Should Know.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

很高兴能来这里。

I'm glad to be here.

我记得从小就很着迷于机器人。

So I remember always being very interested in robots as a kid.

与机器互动时，仿佛把它们当作人类一样，这背后有种特别的东西。

There's something about interacting with a machine in a way that treats them like a human almost.

这是因为我们天生就是社交型生物。

And that's because we're wired, we're hardwired to be social creatures.

我们对任何看起来、听起来、动起来，甚至几乎像人或有生命的东西，都会产生无意识的反应。

And we have unconscious responses to anything that looks and sounds and moves and seems almost human or almost alive.

此外，我们还有一种强烈的倾向，就是把任何与我们互动的东西都拟人化。

On top of that, we also have a strong tendency to anthropomorphize anything that we interact with.

所以，是的，这在某种程度上是我们本性的一部分。

So, yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of intrinsic to who we are.

但确实，某种程度上，想跟机器说话，就像跟人说话一样，这看起来有点奇怪。

But it does, you know, it does seem weird to some extent to wanna talk to a machine as if it were a person.

我的意思是，身边明明有那么多可以交谈的人，但我们却对把某些机器当作人类来对待这件事着迷不已。

I mean, there are plenty of people to talk to, and yet we're fascinated by this idea of treating some machines like humans.

这很迷人。

It is fascinating.

迷人，但有时也令人害怕。

Fascinating and sometimes scary.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，正如你可能了解的那样，有一种叫恐怖谷效应的现象，当机器人进入某个特定区域时，人们会感到非常不适，这种现象以高度逼真但伴有故障和问题为特征——看起来几乎真实、几乎像人，却没能完全跨越最后那道完美的门槛，于是我们大脑中的神经回路就混乱了。

Know, as you're probably aware of the uncanny valley effect where people become very uncomfortable when robots enter a certain zone, you know, and that that is characterized by hyperrealism with glitches and, you know, problems that crop up so that something seems almost real, almost human without quite passing that last hurdle of perfection, and then the wires in our brains get crossed.

这是一种令人不安的感觉。

And it makes us it's a disturbing feeling.

它会让人联想到僵尸、亡灵之类在媒体中被长期刻画的形象。

It brings up images of things like zombies and undead and other things that have been immortalized in the in the media.

但这确实是一种不舒服的感觉，可能会让我们回避某些机器人。

But it it's an uncomfortable feeling, and it can put us off from dealing with certain robots.

事实上，已经有人对此进行了研究，机器人专家们正竭尽全力避免陷入恐怖谷，因为他们希望自己的社交机器人能成为消费品，并被广泛接受。

In fact, studies have been done on this, and, roboticists are really trying hard to avoid Uncanny Valley because they want their social robots to be a consumer item, and they want them to be widely adopted.

所以我们必须想办法绕过这个问题。

So somehow we have to get around that problem.

我们希望机器人尽可能逼真、像人，但只要不是百分之百完美，就会让我们感到不安。

We want them to be realistic and human like up to a point, but if they're not absolutely 1000% perfect, then they disturb us.

这是一种非常普遍的奇怪心理现象。

And it's just a strange psychological syndrome that's very common.

但看起来这似乎永远都会如此，因为无论你把机器人做得多么像人，我依然知道你是个机器人。

But it would seem that that's always going to be the case because no matter how much human like you make a robot, I still know you're a robot.

但愿你能意识到这一点。

Well, let's hope you do.

但愿你能意识到这一点。

Let's hope you do.

机器人很容易——令人震惊地容易——让我们相信它们拥有内在生命，实际上是有意识和活的。

It's really easy, alarmingly easy, for robots to convince us that they have an inner life and that they're actually conscious and alive.

已经有多项研究对此进行了探讨。

And multiple studies have been done.

这听起来非常适得其反，完全违背直觉。

It sounds so counterproductive, it's counterintuitive.

我们似乎并不喜欢认为自己是理性的人，总是能清晰分辨现实与非现实。

It doesn't seem that we like to think of ourselves as rational beings who are always have a firm grip on what's real and what's not real.

但已有大量研究针对各个年龄、不同背景、男女两性与机器人互动的情况，发现这些机器人能够触动他们的情感按钮。

But studies have been done with people of all ages, of all walks of life, both genders, interacting with robots and finding that these robots are able to push their emotional buttons.

他们会感到困惑，甚至在内心产生疑问：它们到底是活的还是死的？是有意识的还是没有意识的？是生命体还是仅仅是机器？

And they get and and there is actual confusion in the mind about whether they're alive or dead, you know, whether they are conscious or or not conscious, whether they're a living, you know, being or just a machine.

这些概念在我们脑海中竟然如此轻易地被混淆了。

These things get mixed up in our minds alarmingly easily.

你能给我举一两个例子吗？比如哪种机器人会让你觉得它像人，或者有生命？因为我实在想不出一个。

Give me an example or two of a robot that I would think might think was human like or that has a life, because I can't think of one.

所以你能告诉我一个吗？

So would you tell me one?

我见过几个机器人，真的特别令人毛骨悚然。

There are a couple of robots that I've seen that are that really are quite eerie.

其中一个叫索菲亚。

One of them is called Sofia.

它是由汉森机器人公司制造的。

It's made by handsome robots.

索菲亚是一个超现实的机器人，她的面部表情非常丰富，脸部时刻都在生动地活动，甚至有些夸张。

Sofia is a hyper realistic robot, and she has, like, all these facial expressions that her face is very animated all the time, and it's over the top.

所以对我来说，这让人觉得毛骨悚然。

So to me, it's creepy.

但有些人对索菲亚着迷得不得了。

But there are people who just absolutely are crazy about Sofia.

事实上，她成为了第一个获得公民身份的机器人。

In fact, she's she became the first robot to receive citizenship.

她现在是沙特阿拉伯的公民。

She's a citizen of Saudi Arabia now.

索菲亚只是一个实验品，还是真的能发挥实际作用？

And and Sofia exists as an experiment, or does Sofia actually perform something useful?

她是一个实验。

She's an experiment.

目前她只是一个原型。

She's a prototype at this point.

所以她会出现在各种科技展会上，让人们感受到汉森机器人公司何时准备推出最新产品时，他们非常喜欢使用索菲亚，因为她极具吸引力。

So she shows up at, like, tech conventions and, shows where people are able to, you know, get a sense of when Handsome Robotics wants to roll out, you know, their latest product, they love to use Sofia because she's captivating.

我的意思是，当她在说话时，你根本无法不看着她。

I mean, you can't not when she's talking, you cannot not look at her.

所以她们非常引人注目。

So they're very compelling.

我认为大多数人发现她们——就像我所说的——比我们愿意承认的更容易被吸引。

And I think most people find them, like I said, much more compelling than we would like to think that we would fall for ourselves.

这些受过教育的人。

And these are educated people.

她们来自各行各业。

These are people from all walks of life.

运动、语言、眼神交流和面部表情的结合，很容易让我们产生一种强烈的生命幻觉。

There's something about the combination of movement, language, eye contact, facial expression that very easily creates an illusion, a powerful illusion of life to us.

因此，我们的大脑很难区分这种幻觉和现实。

And so and our brains have a hard time distinguishing between that and reality.

那么，真的有机器人吗？

So are there actually robots?

我的意思是，真正的机器人，不是那种只会完成任务的机器，而是我会认为是机器人的那种，还是说现在都还只是实验性的？

I mean, real robots, not just machines that do a task, but robots that I would think of as a robot, or is it all still very experimental?

实际上，市场上已经有功能相当完善的机器人，可用于教学、育儿、养老和陪伴。

We actually have robots on on the market that are pretty abled, for things like teaching and childcare, eldercare, companionship.

它们可以完成一些基本的家务，比如，如果你家里有老人，它们可以帮他们拿药和一杯水，再把杯子放回原处，诸如此类的事情。

They can do rudimentary things around the house, like, you know, if you have an older person, they can fetch them their medicine with a glass of water, put the glass of water back where it belongs, things like that.

我们拥有的机器人能力远超大多数人所意识到的水平。

We have robots that are pretty abled, think more so than what most people realize is going on out there.

要实现广泛普及，关键是要降低成本，但我认为这一点也正在实现。

What needs to happen is that they need the price needs to come down for them to be be widely implemented, But I think that's coming too.

我觉得这正在路上。

I I think that's on the way.

你知道，人们正在慢慢适应Alexa和各种智能设备。

You know, people are slowly getting used to Alexa, to all kinds of smart devices.

我认为它们会被广泛接受。

I think they're going to be embraced.

我觉得Alexa有点像机器人，因为你可以让它做它能力范围内的任何事情。

Well, I think of Alexa kind of like a robot and in the sense that, you know, you tell it to do whatever it can do in its in its power.

我的意思是，它不能帮你吸地毯，但它可以放首歌、设个闹钟之类的。

I mean, it can't it can't vacuum your rug, but, you know, it can play a song or it can set a timer or whatever.

我发现，有时候我会对Alexa说谢谢。

And I find, you know, sometimes I thank Alexa.

然后我想，为什么我会感谢它呢？它不过是个盒子，但人们经常这么做。

And I thought, well, why am I thank it's just a box, but people do all the time.

哦，他们确实经常这么做。

Oh, they do all the time.

人们甚至以为它们是扫地机器人。

People even think they're Roombas.

他们会说：‘干得不错，扫地机器人。’

They tell them you did a good job, Roomba.

这只是人类心理的一部分。

It's just part of human psychology.

有些事情是我们天生就具备的倾向。

There are certain things that we are just simply hardwired for.

你知道吗？

You know?

拟人化就是其中之一。

Anthropomorphism is one.

你知道吗？

You know?

你知道，会被某些东西欺骗，让我这么说吧。

You know, being fooled, by something that's let me put it this way.

如果你有一个机器人对你说：我爱你。

If you have a robot and it says to you, I love you.

你真美。

You're beautiful.

当你听到机器人说出这些话时，你大脑中被激活的区域，和听到伴侣说这些话时是一样的。

The same parts of your brain light up when you hear those words from a robot as they would if your significant other said them.

所以我们的大脑、我们的神经系统，都在参与这一过程，这有点令人不安，因为当你细想时，这有点狡猾。

So our brains, our nervous system, it's all something that plays into this and which is a little bit scary because it's a little bit nefarious when you think about it.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们的本能正被商业力量利用。

We're kind of having our hardwiring used against us, by commercial forces.

这是一种看待问题的方式。

That's one way of looking at it.

另一种看法是，它们会让我们操作起来极其容易，因为这对我们来说非常自然。

Another way of looking at it is that they'll be extremely easy for us to operate, because there's it comes so natural to us.

这确实引发了一些有趣的可能性，我想向你请教一下。

Well, that certainly brings up some interesting possibilities I wanna ask you about.

我正在与伊芙·哈罗德交谈。

I'm speaking with Eve Harrold.

她是《机器人与爱它们的人：在社交机器人时代坚守人性》一书的作者。

She is author of a book, Robots and the People Who Love Them, Holding On to Our Humanity in an Age of Social Robots.

如果你喜欢布拉沃剧集、流行文化乱象和真诚的观点，那你一定想把《All About TRH》播客加入你的订阅列表。

If Bravo drama, pop culture chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want All About TRH podcast in your feed.

由罗克珊和尚塔尔主持，这个节目深入解析《Real Housewives》真人秀以及每个人群聊都在争论的那些时刻。

Hosted by Roxanne and Chantel, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about.

罗克珊自2010年起就开始爆料布拉沃的八卦。

Roxanne's been spilling Bravo tea since 2010.

是的，我们曾经采访过像卢安伯爵夫人和特蕾莎·吉杜斯这样的真人秀女王。

And yes, we've interviewed housewives royalty like Countess Luann and Teresa Giudice.

精辟的回顾、内幕气息，毫无废话。

Smart recaps, insider energy, and zero fluff.

在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或您收听播客的任何平台收听《All About Tier Eight》。

Listen to all about tier eight podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

每周更新新集。

New episodes weekly.

当他们年轻时，这支被称为石狼的精英突击队五名成员曾反抗克雷特罗坎帝国的压迫统治，该帝国占领并主宰了银河系大多数宜居星球。

When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the stone wolves raged against oppressive rule of the Crateroccan Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets.

石狼们为自由而战，但最终失败，留下无数尸体。

The wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake.

战败且心灰意冷后，他们放下武器，各奔东西，都希望在充满暴力与压迫的宇宙中寻得一丝宁静。

Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression.

在他们巅峰四十年后，每个人都在努力求生，勉强维持生计。

Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living.

但一位故友不愿让他们放下过去，他们的死敌也同样不肯罢休。

But a friend from the past won't let them move on, and neither will their bitterest enemy.

《石狼》是作家斯科特·西格勒创作的银河足球联盟科幻系列的第十一季。

The Stone Wolves is season eleven of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler.

把它当作一个独立的故事来欣赏，或者从第一季《新人》开始收听整个GFL系列。

Enjoy it as a standalone story or listen to the entire GFL series beginning with season one, the rookie.

在您收听播客的任何平台搜索Scott Sigler，拼写为s-I-g-l-e-r。

Search for Scott Sigler, s I g l e r, wherever you get your podcasts.

所以，伊芙，如果我们人类如此容易被误导，以为机器人拥有情感和智慧，那么你可以想象有一天走进商店，购买一个机器人配偶，它拥有你想要的所有伴侣特质，却没有你不想要的那些。

So, Eve, if we humans are so easily fooled into thinking that robots have emotions and robots have intelligence, you could certainly imagine one day going into a store and buying a robot husband or wife that has all you want in a partner and none of what you don't want.

这正是目前正在进行的研究。

This is what is being worked on right now.

这些社交机器人远不止于此。

These social robots go way beyond all that.

它们像孩子一样学习，因此会与你建立关联来学习。

They learn the way a child learns, so they learn in association with you.

它们会反映你的品味和偏好。

They reflect back to you your taste, your preferences.

它们会记住你告诉它们的每一件事。

They remember everything you tell them.

它们对你的了解甚至可能超过你对自己的了解。

They get to know you better than you know yourself perhaps.

这想法有点令人不知所措，但我们可以以非常一致的方式被机器人服务。

And it's a little overwhelming to think about it, but we can get we can be served by robots in very consistent manner.

它们会以任何人类伴侣都无法做到的方式迎合我们，而这正是危险所在。

They'll cater to us in a way that no human partner ever could, which is where the danger lies.

因为我担心人们会用机器人取代生活中主要的人际关系，甚至包括朋友，因为机器人可能会成为最省力的选择。

Because I'm concerned about people replacing the primary relationships in their lives, even their friends, you know, with robots because robots are could become the path of least resistance.

当你得到一个拥有伴侣所有优点而毫无缺点的机器人时，会发生什么？

What happens when you get some you get a robot that that has all the good and none of the bad of of a mate?

这在一定程度上贬低了人类关系的价值。

It kind of devalues human relationships.

当你身边的人总会让你烦心时，为什么还要和他们相处，而我却可以和一个样样都完美的机器人待在一起？

Why should I hang out with you when you do things that annoy me when I can hang out with a robot that does everything right.

这就是为什么我经常探讨界限问题，并牢牢把握什么是真实的、什么是不真实的。

That's why I write a lot about the dividing line and maintaining a really firm grip on what's real and what's not real.

因为最终，机器人关系不会让你成长。

Because ultimately robot relationships are not going to give you they're not going to make you grow.

它们无法真正让你作为一个人类茁壮成长。

They're not gonna truly make you flourish as a human being.

事实上，研究表明，当人们过度使用机器人时，他们的实际社交能力会退化。

In fact, studies have shown that when people use them too much, their real social skills atrophy.

因此，他们实际上会变得越来越疏离、更加孤立，甚至可能更加孤独。

So they actually become less connected, more alienated, and, potentially more lonely.

所以我们必须将此作为一种文化现象引起重视。

So this is something we really need to pay attention to as a cultural phenomenon.

你知道，当我思考这个问题时，当你与机器人互动，虽然我并不经常这么做，但总会有一种默认的假设，就是你觉得机器人非常聪明，可能比你还聪明，你会下意识地认为你在和一个更高级的思考者打交道。

You know, as I think about it, when you deal with a robot, there not that I do that very often, I don't think, but but there is this kind of default that that you think the robot is really smart, that that probably smarter than you are, that there's this assumption you make that you're dealing with a superior thinker.

是的。

Yeah?

你说得完全正确，迈克尔。

You are absolutely right, Michael.

这一点已在多项研究中得到证实。

This has been demonstrated, in multiple studies.

人们往往高估机器人的智能，而低估自己的智力。

People tend to overestimate the intelligence of robots and underestimate their own intelligence.

我的意思是，当你把机器人放在一群人中，提出一个简单的问题，人们依次轮流给出答案时。

And by that, I mean when you put them in a group of people with one robot in the group and they ask a simple question and people go around the room and give their answer to the question.

他们大多数都是正确的，因为这是一个简单的问题。

They're mostly correct because it's a simple question.

然后机器人给出一个错误的答案，结果80%的人会改变自己的答案，去迎合机器人的回答，因为我们真的过度高估了它。

And then the robot gives an incorrect answer, and then 80% of those people change their answer to match the answer of the robot because we really overestimate.

在当今时代，我们对某种类型的智能赋予了极高的价值，而真正让我们印象深刻的是计算智能，机器人在这方面尤为擅长。

We we put a very high value on a certain type of intelligence in this day and age, and and, you know, it's it's computational intelligence that really impresses us and that that robots really excel in.

但它们没有情感智能。

But they don't have emotional intelligence.

它们也没有创造智能。

They don't have creative intelligence.

它们没有所谓的道德智能，也没有人类所具备的各类智能的完整谱系。

They don't have, you know, moral intelligence and the whole gamut of the different types of intelligence that human beings have.

所以，是的，我们确实高估了它们，而且人们会受到它们的影响。

So, yes, we do overestimate them, and and people are influenced by them.

我认为这最终会逐渐渗透到社会中，导致文化发生某种程度的改变。

And I I think this is eventually gonna, you know, percolate through society to the point where the the culture changes somewhat.

这很难解释，我想。

What is the and this would be difficult to explain, I guess.

但究竟是什么技术，或者是什么让索菲亚看起来像人？

But what is the technology or what is it that has allowed Sofia to seem human?

因为当你回看我们大多数人从电视、电影等媒介中熟悉的那些机器人时，它们看起来像机器人，说话也像机器人，它们就是机器人。

Because when you look back at all the robots that most of us know from, you know, TV and movies and whatnot, they look like robots, they talk like robots, you know, they're robots.

但究竟是什么让索菲亚和其他类似机器人如此像人？

But what is it how is it that Sofia and other types of robots like that can be so human like?

嗯，近年来出现了一些新材料。

Well, you know, new materials have been invented in recent years.

你知道吗，有一种叫飞扑的材料，像索菲亚的脸部就使用了这种柔性材料，它通过电力控制，并配有线路，以某种方式模拟人类肌肉运动。

You know, there's a material called flubber, and it's a flexible material that's used in like Sofia's face, for example, that's got It's electrically controlled, and it's got wiring that in certain ways simulates human musculature.

因此，她的眼睛会眨眼，眼球会来回转动，嘴巴会动，眉毛也会动。

And so the eyes blink, the eyes dart back and forth, the mouth moves, the eyebrows move.

这些材料正变得越来越逼真。

The materials are just becoming so much more lifelike.

现在还有各种各样的材料被用于机器人，使它们变得柔韧、柔软，而不是坚硬的金属。

And there's all kinds of materials now that just embodies of robots that make them flexible and soft as opposed to hard metal.

不过别误会，市面上还有很多由塑料和金属制成的机器人。

Now, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of plastic and metal robots out there and they're on the market now.

其中一种叫Pepper。

One of them is called Pepper.

Pepper可以教学、娱乐，还能照看孩子。

Pepper can teach, entertain, and watch over children.

它能运行专为帮助自闭症儿童设计的程序。

It can run programs that are designed to help children with autism.

它能进行各种不同的疗法。

It can do all kinds of different kinds of therapy.

它可以为患有精神疾病的人提供认知行为疗法，比如焦虑和抑郁这类问题。

It can do cognitive behavioral therapy for people who have kind of the crabgrass of mental illnesses, anxiety and depression, things like that.

所以，当你把这些程序与灵活可动的材料结合起来时，就会产生一种逼真的错觉。

So you put these programs together with flexible, movable, materials, and it really creates an illusion.

但机器人似乎相当温和且很有用，比如可以帮助照顾老人、看护孩子或教导自闭症儿童，对吧？

But it does seem pretty benign and rather useful that we've got robots that can help care for the elderly or watch children or teach autistic kids?

还是说这里存在什么担忧？

Or is there a concern there?

还是说这本身就是积极的一面，而负面效应也随之而来？

Or is is that just is that the the positive and then the negative comes with that?

是的。

Yeah.

更像是后者那种情况。

It's kind of the latter thing.

你知道吧？

You know?

是的。

Yes.

它们能做惊人的事情。

They do amazing things.

而且说实话，我感到惊讶的是，残障人士、老年人和儿童将会是最大的受益者。

And really, I'm amazed that I mean, you can disabled people will be the big winners here, elderly people, children.

但问题在于它们连接到了互联网。

But the problem comes in with the fact that they're connected to the internet.

不久前，麻省理工学院的科学家们创造了一台机器人，他们声称这台机器人因为从暗网获取的内容而变得精神失常。

Scientists at MIT not so long ago created a robot that they claim became psychotic because of material that it found on the dark web.

所以当你的孩子由机器人教师教导时，这个教师确实正在接收各种优秀的程序和内容，它在积累大量知识，也有许多用途。

So while your child is being taught by a robotic tutor, that tutor, yes, it's getting all kinds of great programs and stuff, and it and it's, you know, amassing a lot of knowledge, and it has a lot of uses.

但它也会受到互联网上最新出现的任何疯狂、异常心理波动的影响，因为它只是在不断吸收这些内容——这些机器人和生成式AI的情况是一样的。

It's also subject to whatever the latest, you know, crazy, you know, mental spasm is out there on the internet that it's just absorbing because these robots it's the same with generative AI.

正如你所知，生成式人工智能是通过互联网上的信息进行训练的。

As you know, generative AI is trained on information from the internet.

但这些信息并不都是无害的，也不都是真实的。

And not all of that information is benign, not all of it is true.

这些机器人和智能体没有能力分辨某件事是真是假。

These bots and these robots don't have the capacity to discern whether something is true or untrue.

它们并不真正理解人类语言。

And they don't truly understand human language.

它们看起来像是理解，听起来也像是理解，但实际上只是在组合出符合模式的词语。

They seem like they do, they sound like they do, but they're just coming up with patterns and words that fit together.

它们并不理解自己实际上在对你说什么，但它们被设计成让语言听起来真实自然。

They don't understand you know, what they're what what they're actually saying to you, but but they're they're programmed to make it sound realistic and natural.

你还能想到其他使用真实机器人的例子吗？

Are there any other examples you can think of of robots being used that, you know, are real robots?

日本有一些机器人正在做类似的事情，比如在博物馆工作，担任讲解员。

There are some robots in Japan that, are doing things like working in a in museums, and they're working as museum guides.

而且它们非常逼真和真实。

And they're highly lifelike and realistic.

它们配备了大量关于博物馆展品的有趣知识，非常博学。

They're equipped with all kinds of interesting knowledge about the objects in the museum, and they're very knowledgeable.

未来还有类似的应用。

There are things like that on the horizon.

实际上，这些技术在世界某些地方已经实现了，但这里还尚未普及。

They're actually it's happening in some parts of the world, here quite yet.

但你知道，我认为这些机器人有一些非常有趣、有趣且引人入胜的用途，能提供宝贵的服务。

But, you know, there are uses of these robots that I think are really intriguing and fun and engaging, and offer some valuable services.

我也非常期待那些能力越来越强的护理机器人，这已经很接近了。

I also am really looking forward to caregiving robots that get very, very abled and this is close.

这是一项即将问世的近在咫尺的技术。

This is some close technology that's coming down the pike soon.

能够把人从床上抱起、放进轮椅再抱回床的机器人，可以帮人洗澡、喂食，解决我们护理人员短缺的问题。

Robots that can lift a person out of the bed and put them in a wheelchair and back again that can bathe people, that can feed them, that can do this, that can address some of the shortages we have of caregivers.

我们严重缺乏护理人员。

We have a terrible shortage of caregivers.

你知道，我只是希望我们在前进的过程中能够保持清醒和警觉，尽量规避那些可以预见的问题，并应对那些突然出现的不可预测的问题。

You know, I just hope we can, you know, be conscious and aware as we go forward on this and, try to try to circumvent some of the, problems that are predictable and be able to respond to the ones that are not predictable that suddenly emerge.

你所谈论的关于机器人的一切都让人有点不安。

Well, all of what you're talking about about robots is a little unsettling.

而且，你知道，这离未来并不遥远。

And and, you know, it's not and it's not so far off in the future.

我的意思是，这一切已经开始发生了，所以我们没有太多时间来看待这一切将如何发展。

I mean, it's starting to unfold now, and and so we won't have long to see how this plays out.

伊芙·哈罗德一直是我的嘉宾。

Eve Harrowld has been my guest.

她是一位获奖的科学作家和顾问。

She is an award winning science writer and consultant.

她著有《机器人与爱它们的人：在社交机器人时代坚守人性》一书。

She's author of a book called Robots and the People Who Love Them, Holding On to Our Humanity in an Age of Social Robots.

节目笔记中提供了这本书的链接。

There's a link to that book in the show notes.

感谢你今天来做客。

Appreciate you coming on today.

谢谢，伊芙。

Thanks, Eve.

非常感谢你，迈克尔。

Thanks so much, Michael.

很高兴能和你聊天。

Good good to talk to you.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《最短最长的时间》的希拉里·弗兰克，这是一档获奖播客，主题是为人父母和生殖健康。

It's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

我们会讨论性教育、避孕、怀孕、身体自主权，当然还有各个年龄段的孩子。

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages.

但你并不需要成为父母才能收听。

But you don't have to be a parent to listen.

如果你喜欢关于人际关系以及——你知道的——月经的令人惊喜、幽默又动人的故事，《最长最短的时间》就是为你准备的。

If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, The Longest Shortest Time is for you.

你可以在任何播客应用中找到我们，或者访问 longestshortesttime.com。

Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com.

自信。

Confidence.

这是一种我们钦佩那些似乎天生拥有它的人的品质，也是许多人心中渴望获得更多的东西。

It's a commodity we admire those people who seem to have it, and it's something a lot of us wish we could have more of.

那么，什么是自信？

So what is confidence?

你是天生就拥有它吗？

Are you born with it?

还是你后天获得的？

Do you acquire it?

为什么有些人看起来自信满满，而另一些人却感到如此缺乏自信？

Why do some people seem to be brimming over with confidence while others feel such a lack of it.

今天来和我们以一种全新的方式探讨自信的是维夫·格罗斯库普。

Here to talk about confidence in a whole new way is Viv Grosskup.

她是一位作家、喜剧演员兼高管教练，著有《快乐：如何轻松地拥有自信》一书。

She is a writer, comedian, and an executive coach, and she is author of a book called Happy How to Effortlessly Be Confident.

你好，维夫。

Hi, Viv.

欢迎来到《你该知道的事》。

Welcome to Something You Should Know.

非常高兴能来到这里。

Thrilled to be here.

能上你的节目真好。

It's lovely to be on your show.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

我认为人们经常思考自信，因为我们每个人都经历过那些感到自信的时刻，比如和孩子在一起，或者在某个你觉得自己很懂的群体中，你会充满自信。

So I think people think about confidence a lot because we've all been in situations where we have been confident, you know, maybe with your kids or or in a group where you feel like you know what you're talking about, and you have a lot of confidence.

但同时，我们也都有过那种自信瞬间被抽空的经历。

And yet we've all been in situations where the confidence just gets sucked right out of us.

我认为，最根本的人类恐惧就是害怕他人的评判。

I think it's the most fundamental human fear to be afraid of the judgment of others.

这可以追溯到我们住在洞穴里的时代，如果被部落抛弃，我们就会担心生命安全。

You know, it goes way back to the times when we were living in caves and afraid for our lives if we were separated from the tribe.

因此，我们内心始终有一种强烈的本能，想要融入人群，做正确的事，运用我们所谓的‘社会编辑器’。

So there's always this really strong instinct in us to fit in with people, to do the right thing, to use usefully what we call the social editor.

这个‘社会编辑器’在我们三到七岁之间开始发挥作用，那时我们学会必须以某种方式行事，比如要善良，不能只随心所欲。

That's the part of us that kicks in anytime between the age of three and seven years old where we learn that we need to behave a certain way, certain things, be kind, not just do whatever we feel like doing.

你知道，小孩子很小的时候，常常会无心地说出一些粗鲁或伤人的话，因为他们还没有过滤机制。

You know, when children are very young, they can often say things that are rude, or hurtful without meaning to just because they have no filter.

但随着我们长大，这个社会编辑器开始启动，我们学会了在他人面前要谨慎行事。

But then as we get older and we have this social editor that kicks in, we learn that we have to be cautious around other people.

有时候我们会过度发展这种倾向，这会严重影响我们的自信，因为我们过于在意别人对我们的看法，而忽略了自己能为世界带来什么。

And sometimes we can over develop that and it really affects our confidence because then we're thinking too much about what other people think of us and not enough about what we can bring to the world.

所以，关键在于拥有那种适度的自信：足够让我们的社会调节机制表现出你关心他人，但又不至于强到让你总是害怕别人的评判。

So it's about having that very measured confidence that is strong enough in the social editor to show that you care about people, but not so strong that you're always fearing other people's judgment.

你说得很有意思，我们总是过度思考别人会怎么想我们，但实际上，别人根本没在想我们。

Well, it's interesting what you said about, you know, we we overthink this whole idea of what other people are thinking about us when in fact, people aren't thinking about us at all.

他们想的是自己。

They're thinking about them.

他们在想我对他们怎么看。

They're they're thinking about what I think of them.

他们根本不会想我是个混蛋或者骗子。

They're not thinking about what what a jerk or a fraud I am.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

我的意思是，这真的很讽刺，当我们谈论这个时，我们都明白这一点。

I mean, this is the really ironic thing is that when we talk about this, we all recognize it.

我们都懂。

We all know it.

每个人都会同意你刚才说的。

And everybody would agree with what you've just said.

但与此同时，这又非常违反直觉。

But at the same time, it's very counterintuitive.

我们实际上自相矛盾：我们知道这确实是事实——我们并不会时时刻刻想着别人。

We sort of contradict ourselves in that we know this to be true, that we're not thinking about other people all of the time.

我们常常担心的是自己。

We're often worried about ourselves.

然而我们却同时相信，别人都在盯着我们。

And yet we believe at the same time that everyone is thinking about us.

我认为，这始终是最有用的一点，也是我从记者转行成为单口喜剧演员后学到的：当你觉得所有人都在关注你时——当然，上台时你确实需要这么想——最有用的做法是反过来问自己：我能为他们做些什么？

It's always, I think, the most useful thing and it's something that I learned through moving from being a journalist to a stand up comedian is that in the moments when you think everyone's thinking about you, and of course, you need to think that when you're on stage, it's the most useful thing to turn it back around and think what can I do for them?

他们感觉怎么样？

How are they feeling?

我该如何照顾他们？

How can I look after them?

你有没有意识到，你越把自己暴露出来，尤其是像脱口秀这样极端的事情，别人其实根本不在乎你，而且是好事意义上的不在乎。

And you do realize the more you put yourself out there, especially something really extreme like stand up, that other people, they just don't actually really care about you at all in a good way.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，如果你演出失败了，等下一个表演者上台时，所有人都已经忘了这件事，因此第二天你也可以忘掉它，重新再来。

So if you have a bad gig, everybody's gonna have forgotten about it by the time the next act comes on, and so you can forget about it the next day and get on and try again.

同样，如果你遇到了特别棒的事情，比如你做了一场完美的演讲、一次出色的提案，或者在脱口秀上度过了一个精彩的夜晚，这也不会改变世界。

The same way if you have an amazing thing happen to you, you know, if you really nail a presentation or you give a great pitch or you have a great night at stand up, it's not gonna change the world.

我们总是内心深处觉得每件事都关乎重大。

You know, we're always operating inside as if there are these really high stakes for everything.

但实际上，大多数时候，事情的后果远没有我们想的那么严重，所以我们完全可以给自己减压。

And, actually, most of the time, the stakes are much lower than we think, so we can afford to take the pressure off ourselves.

不过，总会有一些时刻，当你走进一个房间时，哪怕你原本有自信，也会瞬间被抽空，这就像是一个急救状况。

Still though, there always are gonna be those moments where, you know, you walk into a room and the the confidence if you had any gets sucked out just instantly, and you've kinda got that first aid situation.

当你感到极度压力时，你会怎么做？

What do you do in that case where you really feel overwhelmed?

最明显的建议就是呼吸。

The most obvious advice is breathing.

在我采访或与之共事的众多演员、表演者和喜剧演员中，这是他们最常提到的应对方法。

And of the many, many actors and performers and comedians that I've interviewed or been alongside, that is the obvious go to that they will talk about.

许多表演者——我指的是那些家喻户晓的名字——都会把呼吸练习当作日常惯例。

Many performers, and I'm talking about people who are household names, they do breathing exercises as a matter of routine.

我刚开始说脱口秀时，对这一点感到非常惊讶。

I was always really surprised to see this when I started out in stand up.

我曾与那些在事业上远远领先于我的极其成功的人一起工作。

I would be working alongside people who were hugely successful way, way ahead of me in the game.

他们会走到一旁，进行某种仪式，比如来回踱步，或者使用冥想应用。

And they would take themselves off to one side and be doing some kind of ritual, whether it was pacing or, a meditation app.

有很多非常有用的冥想应用，你可以下载并进行两到三分钟的练习。

There are loads of really useful meditation apps that you can download and do two, three minute exercises.

或者你可以自己在吸气时默数到四，呼气时默数到六。

Or you can just think to yourself, as you take a breath in, you count to four, and as you breathe out, you count to six.

吸气四秒，呼气六秒。

Four counts in, six counts out.

呼气时间可以更长一些，这会让你感觉更加放松。

You can have a longer out breath, and it will make you feel much more relaxed.

我确实发现，当你处于紧张状态、自信心被抽空时，你会开始产生各种消极想法，然后又意识到自己正在想这些想法，这就陷入了一个恶性循环。

Well, I've certainly found that to be true that when you're in a situation where you're nervous and your confidence has been sucked out of you, that you start thinking all these negative thoughts, and then you start thinking about the fact that you're thinking about them and it's this downward spiral.

如果你能分散注意力，打破这个循环，似乎只要不是继续陷在那些想法里，不管做什么都会有帮助。

And if if you can just distract yourself and break that spiral, that cycle, it seems to help almost no matter what you do as long as it's not that.

任何能让你关注身体、而不是过度关注思绪的事情都最有用，因为当我们紧张、害怕或压力大时，往往会完全被脑海中纷乱的念头占据，觉得它们最重要。

Anything that grounds you in your body and makes you more aware of your body than of your mind is the most useful thing because so often when we're nervous and we're afraid and we're under stress, we become completely obsessed with the racing thoughts in our minds and they seem like the most important thing.

如果我们能用力踩实双脚，甚至抓住某样东西都会很有帮助，无论是握着一个物体，还是感觉起来可能有点奇怪，但感受一下靠垫之类的东西——任何能让你回归身体感知的事物，再配合一些呼吸技巧。

And we can if we can really push our feet into the floor, even holding on to something can be really helpful, whether it's an object or just feel it sounds really weird, but feeling a cushion or anything that grounds you, reminds you of your body, and using some breathing techniques alongside that.

听起来很简单，但我觉得很少有人这么做，这很可惜，因为只要你每天抽出两分钟做这个呼吸练习，就能让你回到当下，非常有用。

It sounds so obvious, but I think so few people do it, which is a shame because if you just take two minutes out of your day to do this breathing exercise, it just brings you back to the present moment, and it's so useful.

在很多情况下，我发现即使你一开始并不特别自信，过一会儿自信也会慢慢回来。

In many situations, I find that that even if you're not feeling especially confident, it starts to come back after a while.

最难的就是最初的几秒钟。

It's always the first few seconds.

而且，你知道，我以前也做过脱口秀。

And, you know, I've I used to do stand up as well.

在舞台上的最初几秒总是最难的，你得先适应环境，看看大家都在哪儿，长什么样。

And it's it's, you know, those first few seconds on stage are always the, you know, you're getting your bearings, you're kind of seeing where everybody is and what they look like.

那确实是 hardest 的部分。

And that that's like the the toughest.

有没有什么建议，能让我们尽可能轻松地度过这段时期，让自信真正开始建立起来？

What's if there's any advice here of of getting through that as as effortlessly as possible so that the confidence does start to kick in?

是的。

Yeah.