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今天在《你应当知道的事》节目中，我们将带来罗杰斯先生在节日期间给予的充满希望与鼓舞的箴言，以及抗衰老领域的最新进展，包括运动的力量。
Today on Something You Should Know, some wonderful words of hope and inspiration from mister Rogers, just in time for the holidays, then the latest in the fight against aging, including the power of exercise.
运动似乎对各方面都有益处。
Exercise seems to be across the board beneficial.
事实上，如果你取一只运动小鼠的血浆，注入到一只久坐不动的小鼠体内，这只久坐的小鼠会变得更健康，认知功能也会更好。
In fact, if you take an exercise mouse, when you take blood plasma from that mouse and give it to a sedentary mouse, the sedentary mouse is much healthier and has better cognitive function.
此外，雇主在招聘新人时最看重的五大特质。
Also, the top five traits employers are looking for in new hires.
还有，他人看法带来的恐惧所造成的伤害。
And the damage done by the fear of what other people will think.
我们大多数人真正理解那种不敢尝试、选择稳妥、为了不被拒绝而自我压抑的感觉，这种心态严重限制了我们的潜能，我认为这是阻碍我们潜力发挥的最大因素之一。
Most of us really understand what it feels like to not go for it, to play it safe, and in return, play it small so that you're not rejected, and so much so that I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of our potential.
以上所有内容，尽在今天的《你应当知道的事》。
All this today on something you should know.
如果你热爱布拉沃剧集、流行文化乱象和真诚的见解，那你一定想把TRH播客加入你的订阅列表。
If bravo drama, pop culture chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want all about TRH podcast in your feed.
由罗克珊和尚塔尔主持，这档节目深入解析《真实主妇》真人秀以及每个人群聊都在争论的那些时刻。
Hosted by Roxanne and Chantel, this show breaks down Real Housewives reality TV and the moments everyone's group chat is arguing about.
罗克珊自2010年起就开始爆料Bravo的八卦了。
Roxanne's been spilling Bravo tea since 2010.
是的，我们曾采访过像卢安伯爵夫人和特蕾莎·吉杜斯这样的主妇界皇室人物。
And yes, we've interviewed housewives royalty like Countess Luann and Teresa Giudice.
精辟的回顾、内幕能量，毫无废话。
Smart recaps, insider energy, and zero fluff.
在Apple播客、Spotify或您收听播客的任何平台收听《All About TRH》。
Listen to all about TRH podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
每周更新新集。
New episodes weekly.
Something You Should Know。
Something you should know.
引人入胜的资讯、世界顶尖专家的见解，以及您在生活中即可运用的实用建议。
Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.
今天，与迈克·卡鲁瑟斯一起了解你应当知道的事。
Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎收听《你应当知道的事》。
Welcome to something you should know.
这一年这个时候，我们谈论对新年的希望以及帮助他人。
This is the time of year when we speak of hope for the new year and helping others.
让我与大家分享来自深受喜爱的罗杰斯先生的一些充满希望与关怀的箴言，出自《罗杰斯先生的世界》。
So let me share some great words of hope and caring from the beloved mister Rogers from the world according to mister Rogers.
他说，面对我们的悲伤，去哀悼，让悲痛和愤怒在需要时化作泪水流淌，这需要勇气。
He said, it takes strength to face our sad sadness and to grieve and to let our grief and our anger flow in tears when they need to.
他还说，我相信，我们大多数人钦佩坚强。
He also said, most of us, I believe, admire strength.
这是我们倾向于尊重他人、渴望拥有并希望赋予孩子的品质。
It's something we tend to respect in others, desire for ourselves, and wish for our children.
真正重要的伟大事物，从来都不是人生戏剧的中心舞台。
The really important great things are never center stage of life's dramas.
它们总是在幕后。
They're always in the wings.
他说，当我很小的时候，我童年时期的大多数英雄都穿着斗篷，飞在空中，或者用一只手臂举起建筑物。
He said, when I was very young, most of my childhood heroes wore capes, flew through the air, or picked up buildings with one arm.
他们非常壮观，获得了大量关注。
They were spectacular and got a lot of attention.
但随着我长大，我的英雄形象发生了变化，如今我可以诚实地表示，任何为孩子做任何事的人，在我眼中都是英雄。
But as I grew, my heroes changed so that now I can honestly say that anyone who does anything to help a child is a hero to me.
我们生活在一个需要共同承担责任的世界里。
We live in a world in which we need to share responsibility.
很容易说，那不是我的孩子，不是我的社区，不是我的世界，不是我的问题。
It's easy to say, it's not my child, not my community, not my world, not my problem.
但也有一些人看到了需求并付诸行动。
Then there are those who see the need and respond.
我把这些人视为我的英雄。
I consider those people my heroes.
这是罗杰斯先生的话，这一点你应该知道。
Those are the words of mister Rogers, and that is something you should know.
你真的能显著延长自己的寿命吗？
Can you really significantly make it so that you live a lot longer than you would otherwise?
换句话说，所有这些关于饮食、锻炼以及看似牺牲的说法，真的能大幅延长你的寿命并保持健康吗？
In other words, is all this talk of diet and exercise and what seems like sacrifice really going to dramatically lengthen your life and keep you healthy?
简而言之，这一切值得吗？
In short, is it all worth it?
如果值得，我们应该怎么做才能获得最大的回报？
And if so, what should we be doing to get the most bang for our buck?
接下来，请出为我们探讨和揭示衰老最新研究的是科琳·墨菲。
Well, here to discuss and reveal the very latest research on aging is Colleen Murphy.
她是普林斯顿大学的教授，普林斯顿格伦老龄化研究中心主任，也是《我们如何衰老：长寿的科学》一书的作者。
She is a professor at Princeton University, director of Princeton's Glenn Foundation for Research on Aging, and author of the book, How We Age, The Science of Longevity.
嗨，科琳。
Hi, Colleen.
欢迎。
Welcome.
很高兴你来到《你应该知道的事》。
Glad to have you on Something You Should Know.
嗨，迈克。
Hi, Mike.
现在，人们的寿命还不错，我不知道。
So right now, people live well, I don't know.
如今，人们的平均寿命有多长？
How how long on average do people live today?
嗯，美国人的寿命在七十多岁到八十多岁之间。
Well, so Americans live into their seventies and early eighties.
像日本这样的国家，预期寿命更高。
Different countries have higher life expectancies like Japan.
但我们已经知道，如果人们能更健康一点，他们的寿命本可以更长。
But we already know that people could be living longer if they're a little bit healthier.
所以我认为，这个问题在于：我们是在讨论那些已经竭尽全力延长寿命的人，还是在讨论中位数或平均寿命——在这个国家，有很多人由于各种原因，可能肥胖，或者患有某些代谢紊乱、心血管疾病。
So I think it's a question of are we talking about the people who are already doing everything to live as long as they possibly can versus, you know, median or mean life expectancy where there are a lot of people in the country who, you know, for various reasons, perhaps they are obese, maybe have some metabolic disorders, cardiovascular diseases.
因此，我们也可以提高平均寿命。
So we could raise the average lifespan as well.
我认为这是两个不同的问题：一个是最大化寿命，另一个是让每个人都稍微更健康一点。
And I think those are two different questions, you know, maximizing the lifespan versus getting everybody a little bit healthier.
是的。
Yeah.
但我觉得，不管对错，人们普遍有一种感觉，那就是：当你的大限到了，那就到了，你即使过着非常健康的生活，也可能比那些不健康的人死得更早。
But there are there is some sense, I think, whether right or wrong that people have is, you know, when your number's up, your number's up, that you could live a pretty healthy life and die sooner than somebody who doesn't.
所以，寿命不能全由生活方式决定，还必须考虑其他因素。
So it can't all be up to your lifestyle and it's got to be other thing.
再者，你可能被公交车撞到。
Plus you could get hit by a bus.
我的意思是，谁知道呢。
I mean, you know, never know.
你知道，当别人问我做什么工作时，我从不说，因为我很担心说完这种话第二天就被公交车撞了。
You know, actually, of the reasons when I get asked what I do, never say because I am very worried about getting hit by a bus the day after I say something like that.
但你的观点很有道理。
So but your point is is well taken.
我们知道有很多方法可以改善生活方式，但毫无疑问，基因对我们的寿命有着巨大影响。
You know, there's lots of stuff that we can do to improve lifestyle, but absolutely there's huge a genetic component to how long we're going to live.
当然，还有那些百岁老人，对吧？
And of course, there are people who are centenarians, right?
这些人赢得了基因彩票，但其中很多人并没有做任何我们认为是健康生活方式的事情。
Those people have won the genetic lottery and a lot of them don't do any of the things that we would consider to be following a healthy lifestyle.
所以这里存在一种脱节。
So there is a disconnect there.
长寿研究的一个目标，不仅是利用我们目前已知的方法，更是要进一步推进，探索如果调整某个基因通路或另一个，是否能在即使没有赢得基因彩票的情况下，进一步延长寿命。
And one of the points of doing work on longevity of the research is not to just use the things that we already know now, but actually to push that further and to ask, well, if you tweaked this genetic pathway or that one, could you, you know, maximize a little further even despite having, you know, not not won the genetic lottery?
我们能将这个极限推得更远吗？
Could we, push that to a better limit?
当我们谈论衰老、变老时，衰老是变老的自然结果。
So when we talk about aging, getting older and age that aging is a natural result of getting older.
对吗？
Right?
没错。
Right.
不可避免的。
Inevitable.
没错。
Right.
但我觉得，当人们经常思考或谈论衰老时，他们谈论的是外貌，而不是你所讨论的其他方面。
But I think when people often think about aging or talk about aging, they're talking about appearance rather than something else, which is not what you talk about necessarily.
但你能真正减缓这个过程吗？
But can you really slow that down?
我的意思是，人们经常谈论减缓衰老过程。
I mean, people talk about slowing down the aging process.
这真的存在吗？
Is that a thing?
还是这只是为了简化描述某种现象的一种说法？
Or is that just a way to just to kind of shorthand describe something?
在实验室里，我们使用所谓的模型系统。
So in the lab, we use what's called a model system.
也就是说，我们不会在人类身上做实验。
That is, we don't do experiments on humans.
我们尝试做的是使用一种小型生物，在我们的情况下，这种小小的蠕虫。
What we try to do is take a small, in our case, what we're using this little worm.
这是一种毫米长的线虫。
It's a millimeter long nematode.
我们使用它的原因是，我们在遗传和形态学层面已经对它了解得非常多了。
The reason we use that is because we know a ton about it at the genetic and morphological level.
因此，我们利用这种生物来设计实验，以更好地理解：我们能否真正做到你所说的——延缓衰老？
And so we use that to try to design experiments where we can understand better, can we do exactly what you're saying, slow down aging?
我们确实研究了一些通路，在这些通路中，衰老过程已经被延缓了。
And we definitely have pathways that we study where aging has been slowed.
所以当你提到你用这种小蠕虫延缓了衰老过程，这到底是什么意思？
So when you say that you took this little worm and slowed down the aging process, What does that mean?
因为时间并没有变慢。
Because time didn't slow down.
那你怎么能说衰老过程被延缓了呢？
So what makes you say that the aging process slowed down?
好吧。
All right.
我真希望能给你看一段视频。
So I wish I could show you a movie.
但这一发现是在1993年做出的。
But this was observed back in 1993.
加州大学旧金山分校的辛西娅·肯尼翁发现，仅在一个核苷酸的突变——即整个线虫基因组中一个碱基的改变——就使线虫变得更加健康，长时间保持活跃爬行，行为如同年轻线虫，并且寿命延长了一倍。
Cynthia Kenyon at UCSF found that a single mutation, so just one nucleotide change in the entire worm's genome, resulted in the worm being much healthier, crawling around, basically acting like a young worm for much longer and it lived twice as long.
因此，我们的许多研究都建立在这个基础之上，因为我们能够利用这种突变。
And so that's the base on which a lot of our work is set because we've been able to use that mutation.
这种线虫被称为DAF2突变体。
That worm was called a DAF2 mutant.
我们一直在使用这种突变体，深入探究它在哪些方面表现得更好。
We've been using that mutant and probing into like all the ways that it's better.
我的实验室发现，这些线虫的记忆力更好。
And my lab found that those worms have better memory.
它们还延缓了卵母细胞的衰老，因此繁殖时间延长了一倍。
They also slow down their oocyte aging so they can reproduce twice as long.
因此，这一直是一个非常有用的工具。
So this has been a great tool.
事实上，这种生物确实衰老得更慢，因为我们能测量的所有衰老标志——或者至少我认为大多数标志——都显示它们的行为更像年轻个体，寿命延长了一倍。
So in fact, that animal does have slower aging because all the hallmarks of aging that we can measure, or at least I think most of them, everything that we've seen, shows that they actually act like younger animals and live twice as long.
这真的很酷。
Well, that's pretty cool.
确实很酷。
It is cool.
这是我最喜欢的事情。
It's my favorite thing.
你怎么知道它们的记忆力变好了？
How do you know it improves their memory?
你们会给它们做记忆力测试吗？你们怎么让它们拿着笔参加测试？
Do you give them little memory tests, and how do you get them to hold the pencil to to take the test?
是的。
Yeah.
事实上，我刚开始建立实验室时就在研究：我们能否真的测试线虫的记忆力。
So that was actually what I started my lab doing, was trying to figure out can we actually test memory in a worm.
这很像你对狗所做的测试。
So this is much like what you would do with a dog.
所以我们问，蠕虫喜欢什么？
So we asked, what does a worm like?
结果发现，它们唯一喜欢的就是食物，它们吃细菌。
And it turns out the only thing they like is food and they eat bacteria.
因此，我们开发了一种非常简单的实验方法，类似于巴甫洛夫的狗实验，只不过不是摇铃然后给狗 Steak 使其流口水。
So we've developed a very simple assay just like Pavlov's dog, instead of ringing a bell and having steak and this dog salivating.
相反，我们先让蠕虫饿上一会儿。
Instead now we take worms and we starve them for a little while.
然后当我们再次喂食时，我们会盖上培养皿的盖子，因为它们生活在小小的琼脂培养皿中。
And then when we feed them again, we put on the lid of the plate, because they live in little agar dishes.
我们在培养皿盖上滴几滴一种叫做丁酮的气味物质。
We put on the lid of the plate just drops of an odorant called butanone.
这种化学物质具有挥发性。
So this chemical is volatile.
这意味着它能够蒸发，因此蠕虫可以闻到它。
That means it can evaporate and so the worm can smell it.
我们早就知道蠕虫能闻到这种气味——丁酮，但它们对此并不在意。
And we already knew that the worms could smell this odor, butanone, but they don't care about it.
对它们来说，这种气味是中性的。
To them, it's kind of, it's neutral.
这一点对我们的实验至关重要，因为我们想了解：当它们在饥饿时闻到这种气味并进食，是否会将这种气味与食物联系起来？
And that was really key for our assay because what we wanted to do is ask them, Okay, now when they smell this odor while they're eating, when they were hungry, will they make an association between that smell and food?
于是下一次，我们可以让它们接触这种气味，完成这个学习过程。
So the next time, we can let them sit with this, carry out this learning process.
经过一小时的训练后，我们将蠕虫从培养皿中取出，放到一个新的培养皿上，这个新皿中没有食物，但一端有一滴丁酮，另一端有一滴乙醇。
And then after an hour of doing that, we take the worms off the plate and then we put them on a new plate with no food, but a little drop of butanone at one end and ethanol at the other end.
然后我们问：它们有多喜欢丁酮？
And we ask them, Okay, how much do they like the butanone?
于是它们会爬向丁酮所在的位置。
And so they will crawl to the butanol spot.
而之前它们对此无动于衷，现在却全都朝那个丁酮点爬去。
Whereas before they didn't care about it, now they all go to that butanol spot.
所以我们知道它们已经学会了这种关联。
So we know that they've learned that association.
因此，如果我们只是把蠕虫放回有食物的培养皿上，让它们忘记，然后反复进行同样的测试。
And so if we just put the warrants back onto a plate with food so they can forget, then we do that same test over and over again.
我们可以检测它们的记忆。
We can assay their memory.
从本质上讲，从科学的角度来看，你认为衰老是什么？
Fundamentally, what is well, scientifically, your perspective, what is aging?
因为我认为大多数人认为衰老就是随着时间推移，身体逐渐磨损、变老，功能不如从前。
Because I think most of us think of aging as as time passes, things wear out, things get old, things don't work as well as they used to.
那就是衰老。
That's aging.
对我来说，那就是衰老。
To me, that's aging.
我认为我们有相同的看法，因为在生物学层面上，正在发生的是——这正是衰老研究领域如此庞大、有如此多重要问题可探索的原因。
Well, I think we share that viewpoint because it at a biological level, what's happening I mean, this is why the aging field is so big and there's so many great questions to ask.
但所有这些情况都是同时发生的，对吧？
But there's kind of everything at once, right?
所以，有些细胞本来是会分裂的。
So you have cells that normally would be dividing.
当我们年轻时，它们分裂得很好。
They divide nicely when we're young.
当我们变老时，它们分裂得越来越差，最终会厌倦分裂，不再分裂了。
When we get old, they do that less well and finally they get tired of dividing and they don't divide anymore.
这就是为什么我们的一些组织无法再生。
So that's why some of our tissues can't be renewed.
然后我们还有其他组织，比如，我们身体里有一些细胞是不会更新的。
And then we have other tissues like, you know, we have some cells in our body that don't turn over.
我们永远不会获得新的细胞。
We never get new ones.
在这些细胞内部，细胞内所有蛋白质和进行的所有功能持续运作至关重要。
And inside those cells, it's really important for all the proteins and all the jobs that are going on inside that cell to keep continuing.
但随着时间的推移，这些功能也会逐渐失效。
But with time, you know, those stop working as well.
因此，细胞内部各个层面都会出现故障，细胞组成的组织也无法再自我更新。
So you have breakdown at all kinds of levels inside the cell and then cells making up whole tissues and cells not replacing themselves anymore.
所以你并没有错。
So you're not wrong.
这本质上是大量损伤，而我们的身体通常会努力修复和替换这些损伤。
It's basically a lot of damage that normally our bodies do a lot of work to repair and replace.
但现在它们已经无法像以前那样有效地完成了。
And now they can't do that as well.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是活着、变老的过程，这可以说是大自然的宏大计划。
Which is called living life and getting older, and that's kind of the big plan.
所以，我不想说得太哲学，但某种程度上，这几乎……嗯，倒也不是吓人。
And so not to get too philosophical here, but in some ways, it it almost well, it doesn't it's not that it's creepy.
但你知道，人生有个计划：你出生，然后活着。
But, you know, there's this plan that you you're born, you live.
随着你活着，你逐渐变老，你提到的这些过程会变慢。
As you live, you get older, these processes that you're talking about slow down.
它们不再那么有效，然后你就死了。
They things don't work as well, and then you die.
这听起来几乎像是人为设计的。
And it's it sounds almost artificial.
我不知道该怎么形容，但你好像在干预这个宏大的计划。
Like, I don't know how to describe it, but, like, you're you're kinda messing with the big plan here.
你该这么做吗？
And should you be?
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
我明白你的意思。
I do know what you mean.
好吧，我认为有几种不同的方式来应对这个问题。
Okay, so I think there's a couple of different ways to address that.
例如，人们患上的大多数疾病实际上都与年龄相关。
For example, most of the diseases that people have are actually age related diseases.
所以你大概不会对别人说：我觉得治愈癌症是错误的。
And so you probably wouldn't tell somebody, Well, I think it's wrong to cure cancer.
尽管癌症是最常见的疾病之一，而对许多癌症而言，衰老是最大的风险因素。
Even though that's one of the most prevalent, you know, for many cancers, aging is the biggest risk factor.
糖尿病和心血管疾病也是如此。
Same for diabetes and cardiovascular disease.
所以我认为，人们并没有把衰老看作和这些年龄相关疾病一样的东西，但实际上，衰老正是导致他们患上这些疾病的原因。
So I think people just don't think of aging as the same way they think of these age related diseases when in fact aging is the reason that they get many of these things.
我认为这就是一种视角。
I think there's that perspective.
那么，你怎么看待现代医学呢？
And then, you know, what do you say about all modern medicine?
对吧？
Right?
所以，一百年前，我们的寿命没这么长。
So back, you know, a century ago, we didn't live this long.
那么，你在哪个阶段该放慢这个过程呢？
So at what point do you slow that?
我认为，只有当你真正考虑到你只是帮助世界上少数有钱人时，这才变得令人不安。
I think it only gets creepy when you really think about if you're only going to help a few people in the world that have a lot of money.
我认为，当这种情况发生时，或者当……是的，我能理解。
I think that's when it gets creepy or when, yeah, I can understand it.
但你知道，我认为，大部分情况下，帮助人们过上更高品质的生活，即使不一定延长寿命，也会让他们更快乐、更健康、更好。
But, you know, I think for the most part, helping people live higher quality lives may or may not extend their lifespan, but it will help them be happier and healthier, better.
我们正在讨论长寿以及目前为延长寿命和保持健康所进行的所有研究。
We're talking about longevity and all the research going on right now to help extend life and to keep us healthy.
我的嘉宾是科琳·墨菲。
And my guest is Colleen Murphy.
她是《我们如何衰老：长寿的科学》一书的作者。
She is author of the book How We Age: The Science of Longevity.
摄政时期。
Of the Regency era.
你可能知道，那是《布里奇顿》的故事背景时期，也是简·奥斯汀创作小说的时代。
You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, or as the time when Jane Austen wrote her books.
摄政时期也是社会变革、性丑闻频发的时期，或许还是英国历史上最糟糕的国王在位的时代。
The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history.
《粗俗历史》的新一季将全面聚焦摄政时期——舞会、礼服与所有丑闻。
Vulgar History's new season is all about the Regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal.
在您收听播客的平台搜索并收听《粗俗历史》摄政时期系列。
Listen to Vulgar History Regency era wherever you get podcasts.
你好。
Hi.
我是《恐怖中的恐怖》的主持人亚当·吉特维茨。
I'm Adam Gitwitz, host of Grim Grimmer Grimmest.
在每一集中，我们都会讲述一个黑暗的童话故事。
On every episode, we tell a grim fairy tale.
不是你们的孩子已经听过无数遍的那些可爱、甜美的童话版本。
Not the cute, sweet versions of the fairy tales that your children have heard so many times.
不。
No.
我们讲述的是真实的黑暗童话。
We tell the real grim fairy tales.
它们很有趣。
They're funny.
它们很怪异。
They're weird.
有时它们会有点吓人。
Sometimes they're a little bit scary.
但别担心。
But don't worry.
我们为每一集评分，分为恐怖、更恐怖、最恐怖三个等级。
We rate every episode, grim, grimmer, or grimmest.
这样，你、你的孩子、你的家人可以选择适合你们恐惧程度的那一集。
So you, your child, your family can choose the episode that's the right level of scary for you.
敬请收听《恐怖、更恐怖、最恐怖》，我们的新季现已上线。
Tune in to grim, grimmer, grimmest, and our new season available now.
那么，科琳，我们距离开展这些可能对人类产生实际效果的实验和治疗还有多远？
So Colleen, how far away are we in doing some of these experiments and some of these treatments that might actually do something for humans?
你知道吗，这是个很好的问题。
You know, that's a great question.
我真的很高兴。
I was really happy.
你知道，我们开发了我跟你提到过的那种实验方法，用来测试蠕虫的记忆。
You know, we developed that assay I told you about, that experiment to test worm memory.
于是，我们联系了我们在加州大学旧金山分校的合作者萨尔·维埃拉。
So we got a collaborator of ours at UCSF, Sal Vieira.
他们做了一个实验，使用了我们在老年蠕虫中发现的对延长记忆至关重要的相同蛋白质，将其注入老年小鼠体内，结果获得了完全相同的效果。
They did an experiment where they took the same protein that we had found to be really important for extending memory in these old worms and they put it into old mice and got the exact same effect.
因此，这些老年小鼠的记忆力更好了。
So these old mice had better memory.
对我来说，这是一个非常令人欣慰的时刻，因为它表明：好吧，我们真的找到了关键。
And to me, was like such a gratifying moment because it suggested that, Okay, now we really have it.
我们知道如何延长小鼠的记忆，而由于这一机制在人类中高度保守，因此如果我们以此为目标开发药物，就有可能帮助老年人维持记忆。
We know something where we can extend mouse memory and because that is so well conserved with humans, there's a chance that if we use this then as a target to develop a drug, that that could be something that would help older people maintain their memory.
我们所使用的小鼠年龄为两岁，这大约相当于人类的70到80岁。
Then the mice that we were using were two years old, which is estimated to be about like a 70 or 80 year old person.
因此，你可以想象，当你开始注意到自己记忆力减退时，服用一种能帮助你的药物可能是件好事。
And so you can imagine there might be, you you might take a drug that would help if you're starting to notice that you're losing your memory.
这将是一件好事。
That would be a good thing.
所以我认为，我们的研究正朝着这个方向发展。
So I think that's where our work is headed.
这项研究由该领域的许多不同人员正在进行。
And that research is being done by a lot of different people in the field.
我们是还需要几十年、几个世纪，还是几年？
Are we decades away, centuries away, years away?
不到几十年。
Less than decades.
你知道的。
You know?
我认为还有一个重要的观点需要指出，那就是相反的情况。
And I think that there's an important point to make as well that it's kind of the reverse.
你知道，我们已经做了大量关于衰老的研究，了解了如何延缓与年龄相关的衰退。
You know, we've done all this work on aging and we know what slowing age related declines would be.
但同样重要的是，那些用于治疗肥胖和糖尿病的药物。
But there's also something really important about, you know, these drugs that are being used to treat obesity and diabetes.
事实证明，这些药物在治疗心血管疾病方面非常有效。
Those are, it turns out, they're really great for treating cardiovascular disease.
我怀疑，这些药物将成为首批早期延长寿命的药物之一。
And my suspicion is that those are going to be the first, some of the early lifespan drugs.
因为我认为，那些一直难以控制体重并患有心血管疾病的人，如果从未服用这些药物，他们的寿命不会像现在这样长。
Because I imagine all the people who really were having trouble keeping their weight down and suffered from cardiovascular disease are gonna live longer than if they had never taken those.
但这是因为他们服用了延长寿命的药物，还是因为减重后健康改善，现在活得更久了？
But because their lifespan drugs or because they lost weight and their health improved and now they're living longer?
好吧。
Well, Okay.
所以，关键在这里。
So it seems here's the thing.
所谓的延长寿命药物，都会对身体的某种系统或疾病产生影响。
The things that are considered lifespan drugs are all going to do something to affect some sort of system or disease in the body.
对吧？
Right?
肥胖、心血管疾病和代谢性疾病，这些都是决定寿命的关键因素。
And obesity, cardiovascular disease, metabolic diseases, those are all things that are really critical in determining lifespan.
所以这本质上都是同一件事。
So it's all kind of the same thing.
我想这就是我想表达的意思。
I think that's what I'm saying.
我认为把某些药称为长寿药物，而把另一些称为减肥药物，这种区分几乎是一种虚假的二元对立。
I think it's almost like a false dichotomy to say this is a lifespan drug and these over here are obesity drugs.
我认为它们最终都会逐渐融合在一起。
I think they're all gonna, like, blend into one another at some point.
你有没有关注过？我记得不久之前做过一个采访，谈到地球上有一些生物的寿命比我们长得多。
Do you look at I I remember doing an interview not that long ago about how you know, there there are creatures roaming the planet that live a lot longer than we do.
它们似乎有一个共同点，就是它们的生活节奏比我们慢。
And one of the things they seem to have in common is that they live slower than we do.
你知道，乌龟行动非常缓慢。
You know, turtles go very slow.
这一点是研究人员在关注的吗？
That something research looks at or not?
是的，人们确实研究过这些。
Yeah, no, people have looked at those.
特别是，我觉得像格陵兰鲨鱼这样的例子，对吧？
In particular, I think, examples like the Greenland shark, right?
它们生活在寒冷的水域中，寿命可达五百年左右，还有蛤蜊之类的生物，因此有些生物的长寿似乎与其较慢的新陈代谢有关。
So that lives in these cold waters and lives about five hundred years and clams and things like So there are some organisms that seem to have a long lifespan perhaps tied to their slower metabolism.
但也有哺乳动物。
But there's also mammals.
它们的新陈代谢速度并不一定比我们慢。
They don't have slower metabolism necessarily than we do.
因此，人们正在研究各种不同的延长寿命的方式。
And so there's all different types of ways to live longer that people are looking at.
但看起来我们每个人都有自己的‘出厂自带设备’。
But it does seem like we all have our own, you know, factory installed equipment.
我们就是我们自己。
We are who we are.
我的意思是，你或许可以延长一只只活一两周的苍蝇的寿命，但能延长多少呢？
I mean, you could try to extend the the life of a fly that lives a week or two, but I mean, but how much longer?
我的意思是，苍蝇就是苍蝇。
I mean, a fly is a fly.
你能做的毕竟有限。
You can only do so much.
而我们是人类，你大概也只能做到这么多，看起来是这样。
And we're human, you probably only do so much, it would seem.
还是说，我们其实寄望于有朝一日，所有人都能活到一千岁？
Or is this an open ended someday we're hoping we'll all live to be a thousand years old?
我真的很想反对后一种想法。
I really wanna fight against the latter idea.
我们并不是真的在研发药物，让人活到一千岁。
We're not really trying to develop drugs to help people live to be a thousand.
对吧？
Right?
这个观点，你说得对。
The idea, and you're right.
比如线虫，它们寿命只有两到三周，但我们有突变体能将寿命延长一倍。
So worms, you know, they live two to three weeks, and we have mutants that double lifespan.
当把一些通路组合起来时，寿命甚至能延长到原来的六倍之多，这堪称纪录。
And there's even when you add some of the pathways together, it's kind of record breaking of living like six times as long.
但随着进化等级的提升，这些相同的通路所产生的效应会越来越小。
But as you move up the evolutionary scale, those same pathways have a smaller and smaller proportional effect.
因此，我认为这里的目标是让身体功能维持更长时间。
And so I think the goal here is to maintain function longer.
我认为这既不可行，也不可取，我们不该目标是让人活到五百岁。
And I don't think it is, it's neither, I don't think it's achievable and it's also not desirable to, aim to like, you know, make someone live five hundred years.
真正的重点是避免患上与年龄相关的疾病。
The real point is to not suffer from age related diseases.
我认为这种脱节是因为我知道有些人正在谈论极长寿命的事情。
And I think this disconnect, because I know there are people out there who are saying things about living incredibly long.
我觉得这对我们大多数人来说都挺让人反感的。
I think it's kind of a turnoff for most of us.
百岁老人，如果你听他们说，有些人很快乐，但另一些人则怀念那些和他们一起长大的人，对吧？
Centenarians, if you listen to them, some of them are happy and others miss everybody who grew up with them, right?
他们知道自己活得太久，处在一种奇怪的状态中。
They know that they're in a weird place living super long.
所以我认为你不想成为那个活得太久的人。
So I think you don't wanna be the one who lives super long.
你希望的是能和朋友、家人一起长寿，并且健康地生活，以便能好好享受与他们相处的时光。
You wanna make sure that you live long along with your friends and your family and that you live in a healthy way so you can enjoy being with them.
你能评论一下吗？我不确定这是否属于你的研究领域，但人们常听说的一些关于如何活得更健康、更长久的做法——比如间歇性禁食、素食饮食等等——哪些真的有效，哪些无效？
Can you comment on, and I'm not sure if this is your area, but but the things that people hear about that they're supposed to do to, you know, live healthier and longer that that really work or don't intermittent fasting or, you know, vegetarian diet, what whatever it is.
有没有一些被广泛相信的说法其实是谬误，或者文化中某些观念并不真实，或者反而属实？
Are there things that we that either are myths or that are in the culture that maybe aren't true or are true?
你能澄清一下这些问题吗？
Or can you straighten any of that out?
另一方面，像饮食限制这样的做法，还有各种不同形式的饮食限制，已在模型系统中被证明可以延缓衰老并减少与年龄相关的疾病。
You know, on the plus side, things like dietary restriction, and there's all kinds of different styles of dietary restriction, they have been shown in, model systems to both slow aging and reduce age related disease.
不过，我认为在人类身上还有一个未被充分讨论的额外因素，那就是自我节食带来的心理影响。
Now, I think in humans there's this extra component that hasn't been discussed enough, which is like the psychological component of starving yourself.
我自己并不太推崇饮食限制，尽管我知道，如果我得了某种癌症，我可能会开始这么做。
And don't, I myself am not a big fan of dietary restriction, even though I know, like probably if I got certain forms of cancer, I'd probably start doing that.
所以，人们所做的间歇性禁食和热量限制，这些都没问题。
So all the things that people are doing with intermittent fasting and caloric restriction, I mean, that's fine.
他们可以这么做。
They can do that.
这并不是完全没有依据的，确实有一些证据支持。
It's not really and there is some evidence for it.
我认为最终，我们会找到更好的方法来帮助人们。
I think in the end what's going to happen is we're going to find better ways to help people.
比如一些药物，能够模拟饮食限制的效果。
Things like drugs that actually mimic the effects of dietary restriction.
那太好了。
That would be great.
至于运动，几乎很难反驳运动的好处。
Now, for exercise, it's almost hard to argue against exercise.
运动似乎普遍有益。
Exercise seems to be across the board beneficial.
我不知道有没有研究说运动不值得做。
I don't know if there are any studies saying that exercise is not worth doing.
事实上，我之前提到的那位朋友萨尔韦达，他的研究表明，如果你取一只运动小鼠（这些小鼠自愿在跑轮上奔跑）的血浆，注射给一只久坐不动的小鼠，那只久坐的小鼠会更健康，认知功能也更好。
And in fact, this friend of mine, already mentioned, Salveda, who, his work, you know, they showed that if you take an exercise mouse, and so these are voluntary, these mice have voluntarily run on a running meal, and you take blood plasma from that mouse and give it to a sedentary mouse, the sedentary mouse is much healthier and has better cognitive function.
这告诉我们，在生理层面上发生了某种变化，他们发现这是由肝脏分泌的一种蛋白质引起的，这种蛋白质非常有益。
And so that tells us there's something that happens at the physiological level, and they showed it's from something that happens in the liver, secretes a protein, that is really beneficial.
因此，我认为人们有时不太热衷于做的那件事——运动，实际上真的非常有益。
And so I think the one thing that people are like, they're, you know, less excited about doing sometimes, but is really truly beneficial is exercise.
嗯，确实存在那种态度因素。
Well, there is that attitude element.
你知道，人们常说，年龄只是一个数字，你感觉多年轻，你就有多年轻。
You know, you hear people talk about, you know, age is just a number, and you're as young as you feel.
但当你回顾过去几代人时，人们似乎都在抗拒变老，不愿意那么快地接受老年人的角色。
But when you look back over the last several generations, people seem to fight becoming an old person in the sense that they don't assume the role so quickly.
比如六十岁成了新的四十岁，不管具体数字怎么变。
You know, sixties, the new 40 or what whatever the numbers are.
但人们确实更长久地保持年轻状态，不愿轻易认老。
But that that people hold on to their youth longer and don't just give in.
这似乎是一种相当有效的策略。
And that that seems to be a pretty effective strategy.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这是一种健康的转变。
And I would say that's a healthy shift.
在大多数情况下，人们是通过更长久地保持健康来实现这一点的。
For the most part, people are doing this by staying healthy longer.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我想这就是目标吧，尽可能长时间保持健康，然后快点生病、快点去世。
Well, I guess that's the goal, right, is to stay healthy as long as you can, then get sick and die quick.
没错。
Exactly.
这被称为发病率压缩，实际上这是一个广为人知的现象，该领域正致力于实现这一目标。
Which is called the compression of morbidity and actually is a well known phenomenon that the field is actually aiming for.
因为我们谁都希望活得越久越好，但不希望延长那种虚弱的阶段。
Because we'd all like to live as long as possible, but not not stretch out that frail part of life.
我希望压缩这段时期。
I'd like to compress that.
听你这么说，似乎衰老的整个过程比人们想象的要复杂得多。
Well, from listening to you talk, it seems the whole process of aging is perhaps more complicated than people think.
而且有很多不同的方面可以对抗衰老，试图逆转时光。
And there's a lot of different fronts on which to fight the fight to turn back the clock.
我一直在和科琳·墨菲交谈。
I've been talking to Colleen Murphy.
她是普林斯顿大学的教授，也是《我们如何衰老：长寿的科学》一书的作者。
She is a professor at Princeton University and author of the book, How We Age, The Science of Longevity.
节目笔记中提供了这本书的链接。
And there's a link to that book in the show notes.
很好，科琳。
Great, Colleen.
谢谢你的到来。
Thanks for being here.
不客气，米迦。
No problem, Micah.
和你聊天真有趣。
It's fun to talk to you.
当他们年轻时，被称为石狼的五名精英突击队成员曾反抗克雷特罗坎帝国的压迫统治，该帝国占领并主宰了银河系大多数宜居星球。
When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the stone wolves raged against the oppressive rule of the Crateroccan Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets.
这些狼为了自由而战，但最终失败了，留下无数尸体。
The wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake.
战败且心灰意冷，他们放下了武器，各奔东西，都希望在充满暴力与压迫的宇宙中找到一丝宁静。
Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression.
在他们巅峰四十年后，每个人都在努力求生，勉强维持生计，但一位旧友不会让他们放下过去，他们的死敌也不会。
Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living, but a friend from the past won't let them move on, and neither will their bitterest enemy.
《石狼》是斯科特·西格勒创作的银河足球联盟科幻系列的第十一季。
The stone wolves is season eleven of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler.
你可以将它作为独立故事欣赏，也可以从第一季《新人》开始，完整收听整个银河足球联盟系列。
Enjoy it as a stand alone story or listen to the entire GFL series beginning with season one, the rookie.
在您收听播客的平台搜索斯科特·西格勒（s I g l e r）。
Search for Scott Sigler, s I g l e r, wherever you get your podcasts.
你这一生中，有多少次没有去做某件事？
How many times in your life have you not done something?
比如没有申请那份工作，没有约那个人出来约会，或者在会议上没有发言？
Not applied for that job or asked that person out on a date or not spoken up in a meeting?
没做过什么谁知道的事？
Not done who knows what?
一些对你很重要的事，你因为担心别人会怎么想，尤其是如果你失败了，就没去做。
Something important to you that you didn't do because you were concerned what other people would think, especially if you failed.
可能没有人无法感同身受。
There probably isn't anyone who can't relate.
然而，你常常听到人们说，嗯，我不在乎别人怎么想。
And yet often, you hear people say things like, well, I don't care what other people think.
但显然，我们在乎。
But clearly, we do.
也许我们对此太过在意了。
And maybe we care a little too much about that.
今天来讨论这个问题以及你能做什么的是迈克尔·杰维斯。
Here to discuss the problem and what you can do about it is Michael Gervais.
他是一位高性能心理学家。
He is a high performance psychologist.
他是播客《寻找卓越》的主持人，也是书籍《卓越的第一法则：别再担心别人怎么看你》的作者。
He's host of the podcast Finding Mastery and author of the book, The First Rule of Mastery, Stop Worrying About What People Think of You.
你好，迈克尔。
Hi, Michael.
欢迎来到《你该知道的事》。
Welcome to Something You Should Know.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thank you for having me.
那么，对他人看法的恐惧究竟是什么？
So what is this fear of what other people think?
为什么它对人们有如此强大的控制力？
Why does it have such a strong hold on people?
这种恐惧的影响到底有多强？
And and how strong a hold does it have?
我认为这是一种我们讨论得不够的隐性流行病，但我想大多数人其实都深刻体会过那种不敢追求、选择保守、为了不被拒绝、为了更有可能被他人接纳而自我设限的感觉，这种恐惧在很大程度上是我们潜能发挥的最大阻碍之一。
I think that it is a hidden epidemic that we don't talk about enough, but I think most of us really intimately understand what it feels like to not go for it, to play it safe, and in return, play it small so that you're not rejected, that you maybe have a better chance of being accepted by other people, and so much so that I think it's one of the greatest constrictors of our potential.
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这种对他人想法的担忧和恐惧，根源在哪里？
Where does that worry, that fear of other people's thinking, where does it come from?
这是人类与生俱来的一部分，还是后天习得的？
Is it just part of being human, or is it a learned thing?
从我们对大脑运作的最佳理解来看，它是为了生存而优化的。
Well, to our best abilities, when we think about how our brain works, it is optimized for survival.
当我谈到大脑时，我指的是位于你颅骨内重达三磅二盎司的组织，那是一种由化学和电信号构成、具有组织结构并与我们感知世界的方式密切相关的东西。
And when I talk about the brain, I'm talking about the 3.2 pounds of tissue that sits inside your skull, the the mass that is chemical and electrical and has tissue and and a relationship that gives us our sense of how to navigate the world.
我这里还没有谈到心智。
And I'm not talking about the mind yet.
心智是运行硬件的软件。
So the mind is the software that runs the hardware.
明白吗？
Okay?
但如果我们的软件没有优化，没有升级以应对现代挑战，或没有与目标保持一致，那么硬件就会主导一切。
But if our software is not optimized, if it's not upgraded to meet modern challenges or to work in a way that, is aligned with purpose, the hardware is gonna run the show.
硬件指的是大脑。
The hardware meaning the brain.
让我们回到十几万年前，如果你和我生活在同一个部落里，我们都是些笨手笨脚的人，出现时做事马虎，总是说些愚蠢的话，经常在守时或绩效标准上让别人失望，或者去打猎、捡柴火时表现糟糕，部落的长者迟早会说：‘迈克，迈克，很抱歉，但你们得走了。’
And go back, you know, couple 100,000 years ago, and if you and I were in the tribe and we were kind of knuckleheads, and we we would show up and we'd be sloppy with the way that we would handle our business, or we're constantly saying stupid things or we're letting other people down on timeliness or performance standards or if we went hunting or we had to go gather firewood or whatever we were doing and it was substandard of an output, the elders of the tribe at some point would be like, Mike, Mike, I'm so sorry, but you guys gotta go.
因此，被排斥、被逐出部落，在当时几乎是致命的威胁。
So that rejection, that kicking out, being kicked out of the tribe was something that was a near death sentence.
那是十几万年前的事了，如今的排斥已不再是生死攸关的威胁，但我们并没有改变这种程序。
And that was a couple hundred thousand years ago, and now rejection is not a near death sentence, but we haven't changed that programming.
因此，大脑仍然对潜在的排斥做出反应，仿佛那是最危险的事情之一。
So the brain still responds to the potential of rejection as if it is one of the most dangerous things could happen.
这是人类至今仍在体验的、最未被审视的十几万年前的程序之一，但我们尚未真正将其浮出水面。
And that is one of the more unexamined two hundred thousand year ago programming that we're still experiencing in modern times, but we haven't really brought it to the surface.
过去几年，我的工作重点就是深入研究这个过程：它究竟是什么？我们该如何应对？如何通过更好地理解这种根深蒂固的融入与归属需求，找到一些解脱与优化的方法？
And the last couple of years of mine has been to really examine what is this process and how do we work with it and, you know, how can we find some relief and some optimization by better understanding this deep deeply ingrained programming to fit in, to belong.
因为从最深层来看，归属感就是安全。
Because at the deepest level, belonging is safety.
而代价是我们最终活在了他们的标准下，而不是我们自己的。
And at the the cost of it is that we end up living life on their terms, not ours.
这就是为什么你高中时没有约那个女孩出去，总是好奇如果当时去了会怎样。
And that's why you didn't ask that girl out in high school and always wonder what would have happened if you did.
你怎么知道的？
How did you know?
你也认识她吗？
Did you did you know her too?
嗯。
Yeah.
一样的情况。
Same thing.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Of course.
但你知道，在高中时，有那么一个家伙，那个特别自信的家伙，他毫不费力地约了她，还成功约到了。
But but, you know, in high school, there was that guy, mister confident guy, who had no problem asking her out and got a date with her.
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Of course.
他们的自信是一种可以培养的技能。
Their confidence is a trainable skill.
但这并不意味着所有真正自信的人都是通过训练获得的。
Now that doesn't mean that everybody that is authentically confident trained it.
他们可能有很棒的老师，这些老师可能是父母、叔叔、阿姨、教练，等等。
They could have had great teachers, and those teachers could have been parents, you know, uncles, aunts, coaches, you know, fill in the blank.
但自信是一种可以培养的技能，而大多数人不知道如何培养自信，他们只是看着那些自信的人，认为他们傲慢，或者觉得他们只是运气好。
But it is a trainable skill, and most people don't know how to train confidence, and they just kinda look at other people that are confident and wanna label them as being arrogant, maybe, and or think that they're just kinda lucky.
但那是他们的事，不是我的事。
But that's something for them, not for me.
但后来发现，自信也是一种可以培养的技能。
But come to find out, confidence is a trainable skill as well.
有时候，谨慎言辞和行为是有意义的，因为别人的看法确实重要。
It does serve a purpose sometimes to be careful what you say or do because other people's opinions do matter.
我的意思是，有时候他们的看法真的很重要。
I mean, sometimes they really do matter.
那你同意这一点吗？
And so what would you agree with that?
我完全同意，百分之千同意。
I would, thousand percent agree.
我认为有些人意见具有巨大的影响力。
I think that some people's opinions hold great power.
认为他人的意见只是意见，不会真正影响我们的生活方式和未来方向，这是非常冷漠的，比如你的主管、你所效力的教练。
This is it would be quite callous to think that the opinions of others are just an opinion and don't actually influence the way and the direction of our future, your supervisor, the coach that you're playing for.
我们生活中有太多人，他们的意见拥有惊人的力量。
There's so many people in our lives, that have incredible power from their opinion.
是的。
So yes.
那么，你如何判断什么时候可以不在意他人的意见，什么时候又该在意呢？还是说通常都比较明显？
So how do you determine, you know, when it's okay to not worry about other people's opinions and when you do, or is it usually fairly apparent?
不。
No.
我认为这并不明显。
I don't think it is apparent.
很遗憾，我要给你一段研究结果，但人们通常不喜欢听到这个。
Unfortunately, I'm gonna give you a piece of research that is not people don't like to hear this.
当我这么说时，你可能会想：天哪。
And when I say it, you might go, oh gosh.
这太糟糕了。
That's terrible.
或者你可能会说：没错。
Or you might say, yeah.
我也知道这对我而言是真实的。
I know that's true to me too.
但我们生命中一些最亲近的人，他们对我们可能成为怎样的人、我们所做的选择、采取的行为都有自己的看法，而他们并不一定真心希望我们最好。
But some of our closest people in our lives, they have an opinion about who we could become, about the choices that we make, the behaviors that we take, and they don't necessarily want the best for us.
他们想要的是感到安心。
What they want is to feel comfortable.
他们希望我们安于自己目前的生活状态。
They want us to be in our station in life.
他们希望我们始终如一，而不是变得 exponentially 更好，不是从年薪十万美元跃升到一亿美元，因为我们可能会把他们甩在身后。
They want us to be exactly who we are now, not exponentially better, not going from a $100,000 a year to a 100,000,000 because we might leave them behind.
我们可能会创造一个环境，让他们因为自己相对于你过得还不错而感觉不太好。
We might create an environment where they don't feel as good about themselves because they're doing pretty good relative to you.
因此，有时我们认为本应重视其意见的人，实际上正是让我们停滞不前的人。
And so sometimes, the people that we think ought to be the opinions that matter are actually the ones that are keeping us stuck.
所以，要最深入地思考谁的意见重要，至少要有两个标准，我会把它想象成一个圆桌会议。
So the deepest way to think about whose opinions matter is to have at least two criteria, and I think about it like a roundtable.
我的圆桌并不大。
And my roundtable is not very big.
上面只有八把椅子。
It's got eight chairs on it.
这些人关心我，投入了我的福祉，他们证明了，无论他们的成长轨迹如何，我的成长轨迹对他们而言都很重要。
And it's the people who care, who have invested in my well-being, who have demonstrated that my growth arc, independent of their growth arc, matters to them.
正是那些真正关心我、愿意与我共度艰难时光、了解我的独特人生挑战、我的痛苦、我的创伤，以及我那美好而充满雄心的未来愿景和对世界的贡献方式的人，他们花时间去真正理解这些。
So it's those people who really care, who have put time under tension with me to get to know me, to get to understand my unique challenges in life, my pain points, my traumas, and my wonderfully, you know, ambitious vision of who I want to become and how I wanna contribute to the world, they've spent the time to know that.
第二个标准是，他们曾亲身经历过战场。
And the second criteria is that they've been in the arena.
他们已经检验过自己。
They have tested themselves.
他们知道在压力下工作是什么感觉，他们的环境中压力也是真实的。
They know what it's like to work from a place of pressure where stress is real in their environment too.
因此，他们理解这种交集，这些才是对我重要的他人意见。
So they understand that intersection, and those are the opinions of others that matter to me.
那么你的看法是什么？
And so what is your take?
当你面对某件事，阻碍你的想法是‘如果我看起来像个傻瓜怎么办？’，你的建议是什么？
What is your advice on when you're faced with something and the thing that's stopping you is, you know, what if I look like an idiot?
如果我失败了，这些人会怎么想？
What are these people gonna think if I fail?
你该如何克服这种心态？
How do you push through that?
首要任务是保持觉察。
The first order of business is awareness.
你的想法和情绪如何协同作用以影响你的行为。
How your thoughts and emotions work together to influence your behaviors.
你的想法、情绪和行为如何协同作用，影响你的表现、你表达想法、情绪和行为的方式。
How your thoughts and emotions and behaviors work together to influence your performance, the way you're expressing your ideas, emotions, and behaviors.
因此，我们需要从这里开始，即提高对内在运作方式的觉察。
And so that's where that's where we need to start is increasing awareness of how we work from the inside out.
所以有三种最佳实践。
So there's three best practices.
这些最佳实践在实验室研究中得到验证，也在高风险、高压力环境的前沿被证实有效，即正念、写日记和与智者对话。
Those best practices that hold up in the laboratory, of research as well as on the frontier of of high stakes, high pressured environments, mindfulness, journaling, and conversations with people of wisdom.
这三种方法是我们所知在提升觉察力方面最有效的最佳实践。
Those three are the best practices that we know that those hold up the best when it comes to increasing awareness.
一旦你有了觉察，就需要做出一些决定。
From that, once you are aware, then you've got some decisions to make.
而你所问的问题是：我们该如何突破它？
And the question that you're asking is how do we push through it?
我不认为我们要强行突破。
I don't think we push through.
我们要与之共处。
We work with.
因此，我们要意识到那些触发点。
So we become aware of the triggers.
我们要意识到自己的本能反应，然后在觉察之后做出决定。
We become aware of our reflexive response, and then we decide from that place once we're aware.
这就像是我们意识到前方出现了岔路，我要选择哪个方向继续前进？
It's like now we realize there's a fork in the road, and which direction am I gonna move forward with?
这就是反思性的反应与深思熟虑的回应之间的区别。
And so that's the difference between reflective, reactions versus contemplative responses.
正是那转瞬即逝的觉察，为你指明了一条更贴近你理想自我的道路。
It's just that nanosecond of awareness that gives you a path in the direction that is closer closer aligned to the person that you want to be.
所以你能给我一个例子吗？无论是来自你的生活、你的研究，还是简单地说明一下这到底是如何运作的？
So can you can you give me an example either from your life or from your research or or what just, like, kinda how this works?
我来给你举个例子，与其我分析，不如直接告诉你它在我身上是如何体现的。
I'll give you actually, instead of me being analytical, I'll tell you exactly how it shows up for me.
现在正值假日季节，对我和其他人来说，有一种现象叫‘派对前焦虑’。
We're in the holiday season right now, and there is such a thing for me and for others called pre party anxiety.
当你去一个地方，那里有你认识的人，也有你不认识的人，你走进那种环境时，就能感受到那种焦虑感。
So you're going to a place where you're gonna see some people that you know and some people that you don't know, and you can feel that sense of anxiousness just walking into that environment.
但也有一条平行的路径，你走进去时充满兴奋，感到有创造力，对与人重聚充满好奇。
So there's also a parallel path that you could take where you're walking in and you're excited and you're you're feeling generative and you're curious about catching up with people.
我们不妨称之为路径A和路径B。
So let's call it path a and path b.
路径B是那种富有创造力的兴奋感，而路径A则是那种紧张感。
Path b is that that generative excitement, and path a is that nervousness.
这种感觉其实从你挑衣服时就开始了，甚至更早，但我们先从挑衣服说起。
Well, that begins in your closet when and it begins well before that, but we'll just start at the closet.
当你在挑选衣服时，做决定是基于‘我穿什么会感到舒适’（路径B），而不是‘苏西、赞德或约翰尼会喜欢我穿的衣服吗？’
When you're going and picking out your clothes and you're making some decisions about what are you gonna feel comfortable in, path b, as opposed to how will Susie or Xander or Johnny like the clothes that I'm wearing.
你知道吗，我是要以最好的状态出现，因为那样看起来会很到位，还是该戴那块最好的手表，或者戴那块让我感觉舒服的手表？
You know, am I gonna show up in my best because it's gonna look a certain way, and am I gonna wear that watch because it's a it's my best watch, or am I gonna wear the watch that feels comfortable to me?
所以这些就是所谓的路径A和路径B。
So those are, you know, path a, path b.
路径A本质上是一种以表现为导向的身份认同：你必须以某种方式呈现，必须以某种方式与他人互动，才能感到安心。
And path a is really about a performance based identity, is that you have to look a certain way, and you have to perform in a certain way relative to other people to be okay.
只要我能超越别人，我就没问题。
And as long as I can outperform somebody else, then I'm okay.
但如果我表现不佳，或者没有以正确的方式出现，他们评判我、可能拒绝我，或者接纳我，那我就没事。
But if I'm underperformed or I'm not showing up in the right way and they are judging me or potentially rejecting me or they're accepting me, then I'm I'm okay.
就像我处于正确的气流中，但这完全取决于他们。
Like, I'm in the I'm in the right slipstream, but it's contingent on them.
因此，我会不断调整自己，以便在他们面前感到安心。
And so I shape shift to be okay in front of them.
再重复一遍，这就是路径A。
Call that again path a.
回到我的衣橱里，我挑选那些让我感觉舒适、充满喜悦的衣服，不管怎样。
Back in my closet, and I'm choosing clothes that feel comfortable, that feel celebratory, that whatever whatever whatever.
我走进那个派对，心里对自己说：我真期待能和大家聊聊。
And I'm walking into the, that party, and I'm saying to myself, oh, I can't wait to catch up with.
我真想看看罗杰对他新项目的想法是什么，或者类似的事情。
I can't wait to see how, you know, Roger's thinking about this new venture that he's doing or whatever.
所以，这是一种完全不同的方式，这就是以目标为导向的自我认同。
So that, it's a whole different way of going, and that is purpose based identity.
因此，从这里到那里的转变，是从以表现为导向的自我认同。
So the from to here is from a performance based identity.
迈克，在西方世界，我们大多数人都是以表现为导向的自我认同。
And, Mike, most of us in the Western world have a performance based identity.
这完全说得通，因为我们生活在一个追求结果和表现的世界里。
And it makes perfect sense because we live in a outcome and performance obsessed world.
因此，从很小的时候起，我们就自然而然地开始认为，我是谁，其实取决于我能把事情做得多好。
So it makes perfect sense that from a young age, we start to figure out who we are is really how well we're able to do something.
这就是为什么公开演讲在西方世界被视为一种巨大的危险和恐惧，因为它完全关乎你的表现，而不是一种更注重目标的环境。
That is why public speaking is one of the great dangers and great fears in the Western world is because it's all about how you perform as opposed to an environment that is more purpose based.
而目标是某种比你自身更宏大的东西。
And a purpose is like it's something far greater than you.
它并不是对你个人的反映。
It's not a reflection of you.
而是你以有意义的方式为某事物做出贡献。
It's that you're contributing to something in a meaningful way.
所有伟大的人物，所有历史上的伟人——我不是说NBA或NFL中的顶尖运动员，而是指那些在全球范围内带来真正改变的变革者，他们中的大多数都是以目标为导向的，他们从根本上致力于一个超越自我的宏大目标。
And all of the greats, all of the historical greats, and I'm not talking about the the high performers in the NBA or NFL, I'm talking about the real change changers across the planet that have made a difference, most of them are purpose based, that they are fundamentally committed to a purpose larger than them.
想想特蕾莎修女、曼德拉、甘地、耶稣、佛陀、孔子、马丁·路德·金。
Think about Mother Teresa, Mandela, Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Doctor King.
继续往下数，你会发现那里有一个共同的线索。
Keep going down the list, and you'll say, I see the common thread there.
所以我认为人们都听过‘聚光灯效应’这个说法，即我们总是担心别人怎么想，但很多时候，别人根本没在想我们。
So I think people have heard this thing about the spotlight effect that that we worry about what other people think when oftentimes they're not thinking anything.
他们根本没在注意。
They they're not paying attention.
他们更担心你对他们的看法，而不是他们对你的看法。
They're more worried about what you think of them than they are about what they think of you.
谈谈这个。
Talk about that.
康奈尔大学的托马斯·吉洛维奇教授和他的同事们设计了一个社会实验，那是在2000年代初。
Cornell professor Thomas Gilovich and his colleagues, they devised a social experiment, and this was back in early two thousands.
目的是看看人们是否真的在时刻观察和评判我们。
And it was to see whether people are really observing and judging us at every turn.
于是，他召集了100名大学生，把他们放进一个房间。
And so what he did is he gathered a 100 college students, and he entered them, you know, and just kinda put them in a room.
然后，他在另一个房间给一小部分人发了非常难看的T恤，上面印着流行歌手巴瑞·曼尼洛的照片。
And then he had, a handful of folks that he gave in a separate room these really ugly T shirts, and it was a photo of the pop singer Barry Manilow that was on the front of it.
那些穿着巴瑞·曼尼洛T恤的学生们心想：天哪。
And the the the students that were wearing that Barry Manilow shirt were like, oh god.
你是说，你要我穿着这个走进去？
Like, you want me to walk in there with this?
是的。
And yes.
然后他们做了一系列实验性的问题，比如：你觉得在房间里的一百个朋友中，有多少人会注意到？
And then they just went through a series of, you know, experimental questions saying, how many people do you think in the room of your friends, you know, the the room of a 100 people are gonna notice?
然后他们问房间里的其他人：你们中有多少人真的注意到了那个走进来的人穿的衬衫？
And then they asked the people in the room, like, how many of you actually noticed the you know, what the shirt was that, you know, the person that walked in the room was?
结果发现，我们高估了别人对我们穿着、行为和想法的关注程度，大约高出50%。
Come to find out, you know, is that we overpredict how many people pay attention to what we're actually wearing and doing and thinking by the order of about 50%.
因此，他称之为‘聚光灯效应’：我们总以为别人在盯着我们的头发、衣服，关注我们的一举一动和所说的话，但实际上，他们真正关注的是自己的头发、衣服和即将要说的话。
And so the the takeaway that what he dubbed the spotlight effect is that we walk around thinking that they are looking at our hair, that they're looking at our clothing, that they're focusing on, you know, what we're doing and saying, when in return, they're actually focusing on their hair and their clothes and what they're about to say.
所以我们总是带着自己的聚光灯到处走，因为归根结底，就像我们最初提到的那样，我们的大脑机制是为了生存——主要是为了我们自己的生存，而不是为了朋友的生存。
And so we are walking around with our own spotlight because we are, again, go back to almost the first point, is that our our brain's mechanism is designed for survival, our survival, not the survival of our friends necessarily.
这就是聚光灯效应的来源：这种自私、自我中心、有点自恋（我这里说的‘自恋’是非临床意义上的）的倾向，让我们总在试图弄清楚如何在社交场合中表现得体。
So that's where the spotlight effect comes from, where these selfish, self focused, a bit narcissistic, and I say that in a, nonclinical way, but self absorbed approach trying to figure out how to be okay in social settings.
所以，有趣的是，大多数人根本不会注意你。
And so the the take the fun takeaway is that most people are not paying attention to you.
奶奶说得有点对，他们其实都在关注自己。
Grandma had this kinda right, is that they're focusing on themselves.
所以，也许根本不用搞这么戏剧化。
So maybe just drop the whole drama here.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
你要知道，你没问题的。
You know, know that you're okay.
你提过几次了，我想深入探讨一下，确保大家明白以表现为导向的身份和以目标为导向的身份之间的区别。
You've mentioned it a few times, so I'd like to really drill down and make sure people understand the distinction between a performance based identity and a purpose based identity.
以表现为导向的身份，定义就是：我是什么，取决于我做了什么以及我做得有多好，相对于你而言。
A performance based identity, the definition is I am what I do and how well I do it relative to you.
基于目的的认同则完全不同。
A purpose based identity is completely different.
它关注的是我存在的理由，以及我能在多大程度上为此做出贡献。
It is focused on what is my reason for being here and how well am I able to contribute to that.
那么，你如何将这两者联系起来呢？
So how do you crosswalk the two?
同样，这始于觉察。
Again, it begins with awareness.
如果你想想那些让你害怕、威胁你、引发焦虑的事情，是你的目的将被损害，还是你会显得某种样子，从而被群体排斥、被解雇或被人看不起？
And if you think about the things that scare you, the things that threaten you, the things that create anxiety, is it that your purpose is going to be compromised, or is that you're gonna look a certain way and that you're gonna get kicked out of the tribe or you're gonna get fired or thought less of.
所以，如果你处于我刚才描述的基于表现的层面，那就需要从椅子上稍微后退，真正地——也象征性地——深呼吸几次，然后思考：我在这里究竟在做什么？
So if you are on that performance based side, which is what I just described, then it begins with kinda pushing your chair back from the table and taking a couple deep breaths literally, but figuratively as well, and just thinking, like, what am I doing with my time here?
这是一个非常重大的问题。
And that's a very big question.
这是通往现代成年的一种成年礼。
That is a rite of passage to modern day adulthood.
我的目的是什么？
What is my purpose?
我在这里做什么？
What am I doing here?
这其中是有科学依据的。
Now there is a science underneath of it.
因此，要让目标真正成立，它必须具备三个要素。
So for purpose to be true, purpose needs to have three factors.
第一，它必须对你有意义。
The first is that it has to matter to you.
没有人能赋予你目标。
Nobody can give you purpose.
它是你独一无二的、特别的东西。
It's something that is uniquely special to you.
这就是目标，第一部分。
So that's purpose, the first part.
第二部分是，它比你更大。
The second part is that it's bigger than you.
它是你无法独自解决的事情。
It's something that you can't solve on your own.
它超越了你个人的能力范围。
It's something that extends beyond your capabilities alone.
所以它很宏大。
So it's big.
它很重要。
It matters.
第三点是具有未来导向，意味着你今天无法解决它。
And the third leg is that there's a future orientation, meaning that it you can't solve it today.
它需要时间，甚至需要在压力下持续投入时间。
It's something that takes time, time under tension even.
这就是三个要素。
So those are the three.
如果这感觉太庞大了，天哪。
And if that feels too big, like, oh my god.
我这辈子一直在思考这个问题，但我做不到。
Like, I've been thinking about that question my whole life, and I'm not gonna do that.
我真的不知道从哪里开始。
Like, I just I don't know where to start.
你可以通过切片这个练习来开始。
You can start by thin slicing this practice.
你可以通过问自己：今天我的目标是什么？来切片。
And you would thin slice it by saying, well, what is my purpose today?
每天早上醒来，你就问自己：今天我的目标是什么？
And you wake up in the morning and you just say, like, what is my purpose today?
当你这样练习几周后，逐渐熟练了，就可以把时间范围拉长。
And then as you get better at that for, I don't know, a couple weeks, you then extend it out.
这个月我的目标是什么？
What is my purpose for this month?
我这个下一季度、未来六个月、明年的人生目标是什么？
What is my purpose for this next quarter, for the next six months, for the next year?
然后你就开始练习它。
And then you start to just practice it.
随着时间推移，它会变得越来越简单、越来越清晰。
And over time, it does get a little bit more simple and a little bit more clear.
我来自体育领域，你知道的，高性能体育。
And just like so I come from the world of sport and, you know, high performing sport.
我刚才描述的，正是我们练习每一项技能的方式。
And what I just described is how we practice every skill.
我们从一个平静、可控、简单的环境开始，然后逐步增加速度、精准度或压力。
We start in a calm, controlled, simple environment, and then we layer on top of it more speed or more accuracy or more pressure.
于是我们从平静可控的环境，过渡到开放、狂野且充满高风险或压力的情境。
And and so we go from a calm, controlled environment to something that is open and wild and has high stakes or pressure.
我们练习这种层层递进的效果，并意识到：哦，它开始出现崩溃了。
And we practice that that laddering effect, and we we realize like, oh, it starts to break down.
假设这是一个一到七分的量表，七分代表压力最大、后果最严重的情况。
Let's say it's a scale of one to seven, seven being the most stressful, the most consequential or pressure packed.
而我们的熟练能力在第三级就开始出现崩溃。
And our ability to be proficient breaks down at step or or condition three.
所以，平静是一分，稍微紧张一些是二分。
So calm is one, little bit more intense is two.
到了三分，我们就开始看到一些不一致的地方。
And so three, we start to see some inconsistencies.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, okay.
那么我们现在来分解一下这个问题。
Well, now we break that down.
到底发生了什么？
What is happening?
我需要具体提升哪些方面，才能在这个技能上做到卓越？
Like, what do I need to specifically get better at so that I can be great at that skill?
在目标感方面也是如此，即从一个平静的环境开始，然后开始练习在一天中始终与你的目标保持连接。
And it's the same here in purpose, which is start in a calm environment and then start to practice being connected to that purpose throughout your day.
你会发现，那些感到疲惫的日子、压力稍大的日子，或者没能找到方式与目标建立联系的日子，总会有一些常见的原因在作祟。
And you'll find the days that you're tired or the days that you have a little extra stress or the days that you didn't kind of find a way to be connected to your purpose, that there are some common culprits that hang out there.
而这时，与他人交流智慧、写日记和正念练习也能带来显著收益，帮助你更清晰地认识自己。
And that's where the conversation with people wisdom and journaling and mindfulness can also pay dividends to be more clear.
所以，这是一项练习，迈克。
So this is a practice, Mike.
这真是一个非常重要的主题，尤其是在这一年即将结束、迎接新年和新目标、新机遇的时候。
Well, this is such an important topic, especially this time of year as we wrap up one year and look into a new year and new goals, new opportunities.
我认为你在讨论中的观点有助于消除人们实现目标时的一个主要障碍——担心别人怎么想。
And I think your your your comments in this discussion help remove one of the roadblocks to people's success in achieving those goals, which is worrying about what other people think.
我一直在和迈克尔·杰维斯交谈。
I've been talking with Michael Gervais.
他是一位高性能心理学家。
He is a high performance psychologist.
他是播客《寻找卓越》的主持人，也是书籍《停止担心别人怎么想的第一法则》的作者。
He is host of a podcast called Finding Mastery and author of the book, The First Rule of Stop Worrying About What People Think of You.
节目说明中提供了这本书的链接。
And there's a link to that book in the show notes.
谢谢你分享这些，迈克尔。
Thank you for sharing this, Michael.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
新年将至，你或许正在考虑换工作或转行。
With a new year coming soon, maybe you're thinking about a new job or a career change.
如果是这样，《福布斯》杂志列出了雇主最看重的五大人格特质。
And if so, Forbes Magazine has a list of the top five personality traits employers hire most.
位列榜首的是专业精神。
At the top of the list is professionalism.
做足功课，穿着得体，行为专业。
Do your research, dress the part, and act professional.
高能量紧随其后，容易被录用。
High energy gets hired next.
别过度表现你的能量。
Don't overdo the energy.
只需确保你充满热情，并且精通你的领域。
Just be sure you're enthusiastic and know your stuff.
自信是必须的。
Confidence is a must.
你的潜在雇主会注意到，比如你如何进入房间、如何伸手握手以及如何进行眼神交流。
Your potential employer will notice, for example, how you enter a room, how you extend your hand and make eye contact.
自我监控是一项备受青睐的特质。
Self monitoring is a sought after trait.
你需要在简历中和面对面面试时展示你所取得的成就和学到的知识。
You'll need to show what you've accomplished and learned on both your resume and during a face to face interview.
而求知欲是另一个重要的个性优势。
And intellectual curiosity is another big personality plus.
展示你对学习新事物的热情，并为一些有趣的问题做好准备。
Show your passion for learning new things and be prepared for some interesting questions.
这一点是你应该知道的。
And that is something you should know.
提醒一下，当你在节日期间做事需要陪伴时，我们有一整套丰富的往期节目，我相信你会喜欢收听。
A reminder, as you're doing things around the holidays and need some company, we have a whole big catalog of back episodes of this podcast that I know you would enjoy listening to.
所以请查看所有往期节目。
So please take a look at all the back episodes.
我敢肯定你会找到一些非常吸引你的内容，并去听听看。
I'm sure you'll find some you'll find really fascinating and give them a listen.
我是迈克·卡鲁瑟斯。
I'm Mike Carruthers.
感谢您今天收听《你应该知道的事情》。
Thanks for listening today to something you should know.
《无限猴子笼子》即将回归。
The infinite monkey cage returns imminently.
我是罗伯特·因斯，坐在我旁边的是布莱恩·考克斯，他有很多关于新一季的内容要告诉你。
I am Robert Ince, and I'm sat next to Brian Cox who has so much to tell you about.
新一季有哪些内容？
What's on the new series.
主要是鳗鱼。
Primarily eels.
还有别的吗？
And what else?
鳗鱼太有趣了。
That it was fascinating, the eels.
但我们不只是讲鳗鱼，对吧？
But we're not just doing eels, are we?
我们还会探讨脑机接口、计时、核聚变、猴子相关话题、北极云科学，还有鳗鱼。
We're doing a bit with brain computer interfaces, timekeeping, fusion, monkey business, cloud science of the North Pole, and EELS.
我提到过鳗鱼了吗？
Did I mention the EELS?
这难道是因为你买了萨加索海下面的分时度假屋吗？
Is this ever since you bought that time share underneath the Sargasso Sea?
请在 bbc.com 或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
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