真正控制你金钱的是什么？以及何时该放弃

我知道你喜欢有趣且发人深省的对话和想法，因为你一直在听《你应该知道》这个节目。

I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know.

所以让我为你推荐另一档你一定会喜欢的播客。

So let me recommend another podcast I know you will enjoy.

它就是《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

It's the Jordan Harbinger Show.

乔丹有一种独特的才能，能让嘉宾分享故事并提供发人深省的见解。

Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights.

多年来，我推荐了很多人去听，也收到很多反馈，说他们非常感谢我介绍他们认识《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

Over the years, I've sent a lot of people to listen, and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger Show.

最近，他讨论了山达基教以及在该组织中长大的孩子们。

Recently, he discussed Scientology and the children who were raised in that organization.

这是一场引人入胜的对话。

It's a fascinating conversation.

他还与琳达·帕特里克博士探讨了如何在现代世界中保护自己的身心，而这比你想象的要难得多。

And he talked with doctor Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world, and it's tougher than you think.

我和乔丹已经相当熟了。

I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well.

我们经常聊天，说实话，他是个非常聪明、有洞察力的人，做的播客简直太棒了。

We talk frequently, and I tell you, he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast.

在苹果播客、Spotify 或你收听播客的任何平台，都可以收听《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。

Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

今天在《你应当知道》节目中，我们将探讨一次简单的厨房之旅如何帮助你成为更好的司机，以及影响你金钱、科技、算法甚至信用卡的隐藏因素。

Today on something you should know, how a quick trip to the kitchen can help you be a better driver, Then hidden factors that affect your money, technology, algorithms, even credit cards.

有一种奇怪的经济现象：银行希望你使用他们的信用卡。

There is this strange economics going on where the banks, they want you to use their credit cards.

它们可以收取这些费用，但商家却要承担这些费用。

They can charge these fees, but then stores have to pay those fees.

那么商家会怎么做呢？

So what do stores do?

他们提高价格。

They raise their prices.

所以我们现在因为信用卡费用而支付更高的价格。

So now we're paying higher prices because of credit card fees.

还有，为什么你的眼睛有时会突然抽搐，然后就放弃一切，比如一份工作、一段关系？

Also, why does your eye sometimes just start twitching and quitting anything, a job, a relationship?

放弃有糟糕的方式，也有明智的方式。

There are bad ways to quit and good ways to quit.

归根结底，一个更明智的明智放弃，是个人在正确的时间、以正确的方式、为了正确的原因选择退出。

And really, I guess what it comes down to is a wiser good quit is one that in which an individual quits for the right reasons at the right time and in the right way.

而这其中的任何一个环节，我们都可能搞砸。

And any one of those we can screw up.

今天所有这些内容，尽在《你应该知道的事》。

All this today on Something You Should

来自获奖播客《最长的最短时间》的希拉里·弗兰克，这档节目探讨为人父母和生殖健康。

Hilary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

我们会聊到性教育、避孕、怀孕、身体自主权，当然还有各个年龄段的孩子。

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages.

但你不必是父母也能收听。

But you don't have to be a parent to listen.

如果你喜欢关于人际关系以及……嗯，月经的令人惊讶、幽默又感人的真实故事，《最长的最短时间》适合你。

If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, The Longest Shortest Time is for you.

你可以在任何播客应用中找到我们，或者访问 longestshortesttime.com。

Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com.

你应当知道的事，引人入胜的资讯，来自世界顶尖专家的实用建议，让你今天就能用上——《你应当知道的事》，主播迈克·卡鲁瑟斯。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

喝酒后开车是个糟糕的主意，但喝水后开车却是个绝佳的主意。

So drinking alcohol and driving is a horrible idea, but drinking water and driving is a spectacular idea.

我是迈克·卡鲁瑟斯，今天这期《你应当知道的事》，我们就从这个话题开始。

I'm Mike Carruthers, and that is what we're going to start with today on this episode of something you should know.

如果你想成为最好的司机，先喝点水吧。

If you wanna be the best driver you can be, drink some water first.

研究表明，即使是轻度脱水——比如忙碌一天后可能出现的状态——也会削弱你的专注力、减慢反应速度，并加剧疲劳。

Research shows that even mild dehydration, the kind you might have after a busy day, can impair your concentration, slow your reaction time, and increase fatigue.

在一项研究中，脱水的司机在长时间单调驾驶时犯了更多错误。

In one study, dehydrated drivers made significantly more errors during a long monotonous drive.

而且不需要很多。

And it doesn't take much.

只要身体流失1%到2%的水分，就可能开始影响大脑功能，这意味着仅仅喝水不足，就可能悄悄降低你的专注力、思维清晰度和警觉性。

Losing just one to 2% of your body's water can start to affect how well your brain functions, which means something as simple as not drinking enough water can quietly make it harder to focus, think clearly, and stay alert.

所以在你伸手拿咖啡因或硬撑着对抗精神模糊之前，或许可以先喝一杯水。

So before you reach for caffeine or try to push through the mental fog, you might just try a glass of water.

这就是你应该知道的事情。

And that is something you should know.

决定你拥有多少钱的很多因素，都是你从未察觉的方式在起作用。

A lot of what determines how much money you have happens in ways you never see.

这不仅仅是你有多努力工作或赚了多少钱。

It's not just how hard you work or how much money you earn.

它还涉及经济、技术、信贷体系，甚至算法——这些力量在幕后悄然塑造着你的财务生活。

It's the economy, technology, the credit system, even algorithms, forces that quietly shape your financial life behind the scenes.

那么，为什么钱似乎更容易流向某些人，而你对自己的钱究竟有多少掌控力呢？

So why does money seem to flow more easily to some people than others, and how much control do you really have over your money?

我的嘉宾花了多年时间揭示影响你钱包和银行账户的隐性力量。

My guest has spent years uncovering the hidden forces that influence your wallet and your bank account.

亚历克斯·梅亚西是播客《Planet Money》的记者，我多次推荐过这个节目，他还是《Planet Money：塑造你生活的经济力量指南》一书的作者。

Alex Mayyasi is a reporter for the podcast PLANET MONEY, which I've recommended many times, and he's the author of a book called PLANET MONEY, A GUIDE TO THE ECONOMIC FORCES THAT SHAPE YOUR LIFE.

嗨，亚历克斯。

Hey, Alex.

欢迎来到《你应该知道》。

Welcome to something you should know.

嗨，迈克。

Hi, Mike.

很高兴能来这里。

It's really nice to be here.

我有太多问题了。

Well, I have so many questions.

有太多事情可以聊了。

There's so many things to talk about.

我想直接切入正题。

I wanna jump right in.

我们先从超级明星效应说起吧。

And let's start with the superstar effect.

你能解释一下这是什么吗？为什么它重要，以及它如何影响金钱？

Can you explain what that is and why it's important and how and how it affects money?

是的。

Yeah.

超级明星效应指的是，在某些领域，技术彻底改变了结果的分布范围。

So the superstar effect is this idea that in certain fields, technology has really changed the range of outcomes.

你小时候看过《我爱露西》吗？

Did you grow up watching I love Lucy?

我看过的。

I did.

那你应该知道德西·阿纳兹是谁吧。

So you probably know who Desi Arnaz is then.

他是里基·里卡多。

He is Ricky Ricardo.

没错。

Right.

德西·阿纳兹和露西尔·鲍尔因创作了广受欢迎的情景喜剧《我爱露西》而闻名。

So Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball are famous for having created the beloved sitcom, I love Lucy.

但另一种角度来看，他们所做的，尤其是德西所发现的，实际上创造了电视的商业模式。

But another way, what they did and especially what Desi figured out, he really, like, created the business model of television.

他找到了方法，弄清楚了如何让电视变得非常赚钱。

He found it he figured out how to make television really lucrative.

因为电视曾经就像广播一样，后来他们把摄像机加了上去。

Because TV was once this thing, it was almost like radio, and then they they put a camera on it.

那时候的节目就像在单台摄像机前上演的小型戏剧。

They were like these little plays in front of a single camera.

因此，德西和露西尔都想出了如何提升电视节目的制作水准。

And so Desi and Lucille both figured out how to increase the production value of TV.

但他们还做了一件事，就是把电视从一种人们只看一次就结束的节目——当时所有电视节目都是现场直播——转变为可以随时观看的内容。

But what they also did is they changed TV from something that you just kind of people watched once and then it was done, like, every TV show was live, to something that you could watch any time.

比如，当《我爱露西》变得非常受欢迎时，他们迎来一个非凡的时刻：露西尔在现实中怀孕了。

Like, there's this point where I love Lucy got really popular, and they had this incredible moment where they were pregnant in real life.

当露西尔·鲍尔分娩时，剧中角色也恰好生下了一个孩子，这一集大受欢迎。

And as Lucille Ball went into labor and gave birth, an episode of I love Lucy where their characters on screen also had a baby, and it was incredibly popular.

每个人都喜欢《我爱露西》。

Everyone loved I love Lucy.

他们当时在销售《我爱露西》的周边商品，但随后遇到了一个问题：我们暂时无法制作更多新集。

They were selling I love Lucy merch, but then they had this problem, which is, we they couldn't make more episodes for a while.

于是，德西·阿纳兹基本上发明了重播的概念——即可以反复播放旧剧集。

So Desi Arnaz basically invented the rerun, the fact that you could rerun episodes.

因此，现在如果你制作了一部电视剧，就不再只能靠一次性播出赚钱了。

And so now if you created TV show, it wasn't something you could just make money off of one time.

你可以一遍又一遍地重播，而我们现在生活在一个流媒体的世界里。

You could do reruns again and again and again, and now we live in the world of streaming.

因此，如果你从事电视行业，如果你是超级巨星，制作了像《我爱露西》或现在的《权力的游戏》这样广受欢迎的热门剧集，全世界的人都可以在几乎任何时间观看这部剧。

So it's kind of the case that if you work in TV, if you are a superstar, if you make a beloved hit TV show like I love Lucy or now Game of Thrones, everyone around the world can watch that TV show at pretty much any time.

所以，如果你在电视行业工作，你现在的竞争对手不仅仅是正在制作电视节目的其他人。

So if you are in the TV business, you are not just competing with other people making TV right now.

你是在和所有曾经制作过电视节目的人竞争。

You are competing with every person who has made TV ever.

你是在和有史以来最优秀的电视节目竞争。

You are competing with the best TV shows ever made.

现在，你是在和有史以来最优秀的内容竞争。

Now you're competing with the best content ever made.

这意味着，那些制作出最著名、最受欢迎内容的超级巨星，他们实际上获得了不成比例的巨额回报。

And so what that means is that, you know, the superstars who make the very most famous and popular content, they really make an outsized share of the rewards of money.

你知道吗？

You know?

比如，如果你是个歌手，你知道，过去的情况是这样的。

Like, so if you are a singer, you know, it used to be you go back in time.

你知道，有很多人靠唱歌赚钱。

You know, lots of people got paid to sing.

所以歌手们，你知道，他们能赚不少钱，但可能算不上极其富有。

And so singers, you know, they they could make some good money, but maybe they weren't fabulously wealthy.

即使是最受欢迎的歌手，也远不像今天的泰勒·斯威夫特那样富可敌国。

Even the most popular singers weren't fabulously fabulously wealthy in the way that, say, Taylor Swift is today.

因为今天的歌手，全世界的人都能听到他们的音乐。

Because the singers of today, people can listen to them all around the world.

如果你是个普通的歌手，过去——比如一百年前、两百年前——你或许还能过上相当不错的生活。

If you and if you're a kind of, like, average singer, you might have been able to make a pretty good living back in the day, maybe a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, what have you.

但现在，你要和世界上最好的歌手和艺人竞争。

But now you're competing against the very best singers and entertainers in the world.

所以，除非你处于绝对顶尖的水平，否则作为歌手或音乐人谋生要困难得多，而如果你是顶尖人物，回报就会极其丰厚。

So it's much harder to make a liver a living as a singer or musician unless you're one of those people who are at the absolute top, in which case there are these huge returns for you.

你知道，你可以赚很多钱。

You know, you can make a lot of money.

泰勒·斯威夫特是个亿万富翁。

Taylor Swift is a billionaire.

那这对我有什么影响呢？

And so how does that affect me?

那我该从中学到什么教训呢？

What so what's the lesson that I should learn from that?

我觉得你可以从中得到的启示是，想想看，如果我们考虑年轻人在选择职业时，你想要什么样的职业？

I think something you can learn from that is think about you know, if we're thinking about younger people and you're choosing a career, what kind of career do you want to have?

你知道，如果你是那种想在自己领域做到极致、痴迷于成为顶尖人物、愿意为之努力的人，那么选择一个具有超级明星效应的行业，对你来说会非常好。

You know, if you're someone who wants to be the very, very best at what you do, you're obsessed, you're gonna work hard to be the top of your field, you know, being in an industry with superstar effects, that can be great for you.

你可以赚到可观的收入，你的付出也会得到丰厚回报。

You could make really good money, and your work will really pay off.

而如果你更看重工作与生活的平衡，那可能就不适合进入这类行业，因为除非你站在绝对顶端，否则很难既谋生又保持稳定。

Whereas, you know, if you would really prefer to have work life balance, you probably don't wanna be in one of those fields because it's just really hard to to make a living and have stability unless you're at the very top.

你知道吧？

You know?

所以也许你更想从事像护理这样的行业，那里并没有超级明星效应。

So maybe you wanna be in a field like, say, nursing where they don't really have the superstar effect.

当你是一名护士时，并不是在和你领域里最顶尖的护士竞争。

It's not like if you're a nurse, you're competing with the very best nurse in your field.

你知道吧？

You know?

我们需要很多护士，即使你不是世界上最出色的护士，只要是个好护士，依然能拿到不错的薪水，拥有职业稳定性。

We need lots of nurses, and you can be a good nurse but not the world's best nurse and, you know, still make a good salary and and have career stability.

我们来谈谈关税吧，因为你在新闻里经常听到这个词，但我还不太清楚关税运作的所有细节，不过它们显然会影响价格。

Let's talk about tariffs because you hear that word a lot in the news, but I'm not sure I understand completely all the little details of how tariffs work and and they clearly affect prices.

那它们是怎么运作的呢？

So how do they work?

是的。

Yeah.

我的简短回答是，关税是对贸易征税。

I mean, a very short answer is that a tariff is a tax on trade.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你要将货物越过边境运入国内，比如在港口或陆路口岸，就会被征税。

So if you're gonna bring goods across the border into the country, you know, at the port or across the land crossing, then it will be taxed.

比如说，如果关税是15%，那么当商品过境时，以其价值为基础，进口商必须额外向联邦政府支付15%的税款。

You know, the if it's a 15% tariff, you know, take the value of that good as it crosses the border, and whoever's importing it has to pay an extra 15% as a tax to the federal government.

我觉得过去一年我们看到一个让人困惑或微妙的地方，那就是有人声称关税由外国人支付。

I think something that we've really seen over the past year that is a bit confusing or subtle about tariffs that trips people up is that, you have one side say that tariffs are paid by foreigners.

另有人则说，这是由美国人民承担的税。

Another say that that's a tax that's paid by the American people.

其实这两种说法都有道理。

And they're kind of both true.

关键在于，这笔税是由进口商品的人支付的。

There's this element where the tax is paid by whoever is importing a product.

所以，你知道，如果这些是美国的关税，通常是由美国公司来支付。

So, you know, that's often an American company if these are American tariffs.

但这家公司的选择可能是将这笔税的成本转嫁给消费者，这样一来，美国人就得为商品支付更高的价格。

But that company could choose to pass the cost of that tax on to consumers, in which case Americans are just paid higher prices for goods.

但也有另一种可能，那就是进口该产品的美国公司可能会对他们的贸易伙伴——比如中国制造商——说：嘿。

But it's also possible that the American company that's importing that product might say to the, you know, the company they're trading with, you know, maybe the Chinese manufacturer, like, hey.

因为有了这个关税，我们只能给你们更少的钱，他们会把关税压力转嫁给中国制造商。

You know, because of this tariff, we're gonna pay you less, and they'll force the tariff onto that Chinese manufacturer.

所以从某种意义上说，是中国制造商在支付这笔关税。

And so in a way, the Chinese manufacturer is paying that tariff.

因此，在不同情况下情况会有所不同，这其实是个实力对比的问题。

And so it can be different in different cases, and it's kind of a matter of leverage.

对吧？

Right?

比如，公司可能想直接提高客户的价格，但也许客户对价格非常敏感，他们担心这样行不通。

Like, companies might want to just increase the cost for customers their customers, But maybe customers are really price sensitive, they're worried that won't work.

所以也许他们只能自己承担这个成本。

So maybe they'll just eat the cost themselves.

或者，那个进口商，也就是进口电视或其他产品的美国公司，可能会对中国的制造商说：由于我们要支付这笔关税，我们只能给你们更少的钱。

Or maybe the, you know, the importer, the American company that's importing, you know, TVs or what have you, you know, they'll be able to say to the Chinese company, the Chinese manufacturer, we you we're just gonna pay you less because we have to pay this tariff.

但如果中国制造商说：去你的。

But if the Chinese manufacturer could say, screw you.

我干脆把电视卖到别处去，那就不行了。

I'm just gonna sell these TVs elsewhere, then nope.

是的。

Yep.

那美国公司就不得不支付这笔关税。

That that the the American company is gonna have to pay the tariff.

关税有个棘手的地方，就是通常很难明确地说清楚到底是谁在支付这笔税。

So there is something tricky about tariffs where it is often hard to say definitively who is paying them.

一个对人们的金钱和经济产生重大影响的因素是人工智能，因为人们担心它会取代工作岗位，导致人们失业。

One factor that seems to be affecting people's money and the economy in a big way is AI because people are concerned that it's going to or that it is replacing jobs, putting people out of work.

所以我想知道你对此有什么看法。

So I'm curious what you have to say about it.

我经常思考的一件事是银行柜员发生了什么。

One thing I think about a lot is what happened with bank tellers.

对吧？

Right?

波士顿大学一位教授做了很棒的研究，调查了当自动取款机开始在银行安装时，银行柜员的情况如何。

And so there's this great researcher, great research done by a professor at Boston University that looked at what happened to bank tellers when automated teller machines started getting installed at banks.

对吧？

Right?

这是一台机器，也就是自动取款机，而你是一名银行柜员。

This is this is a machine who's literally, you know, automated teller machine, and you're a bank teller.

那你将会怎么样呢？

You know, what what what's gonna happen to you?

这台机器就是专门设计来自动化你的工作的。

You know, this is a machine literally designed to automate your job.

他发现的令人惊讶的是，几十年来，银行雇佣的柜员人数持续增加。

And the surprising thing he found is that for decades, the number of bank tellers employed by banks continued to go up.

增长并不快，是缓慢的增长，但柜员的数量并没有减少。

Not fast, it was slow growth, but the number of bank tellers did not go down.

几十年来，这个数字一直在上升。

It kept going up for decades.

后来发生了两件事，有助于解释为什么柜员没有因为自动取款机而灭绝。

Then there were kind of two things that happened that help explain why bank tellers were not did not go to extinction because of ATMs.

一是这种有趣的现象：有时，自动化部分工作的技术反而会让这项工作变得便宜得多，从而促使公司做更多这样的事。

One is this kind of interesting phenomenon where sometimes technology that automates part of your job, it will actually make it so much cheaper to do that thing that companies do more of it.

在这种情况下，银行通过安装自动取款机，降低了银行分行的运营成本。

So in this case, you know, banks by installing ATMs, the cost of running a bank branch went down.

结果，他们并没有说：‘好吧，’

And as a result, they didn't say, oh, okay.

‘我们把所有柜员都解雇了吧。’

Let's let's fire all the bank tellers.

他们说，太好了。

They said, oh, great.

让我们多开一些银行网点。

Let's open more bank branches.

因此，每个网点的柜员数量减少了。

And so the number of tellers at each branch went down.

但由于他们开设了更多网点来服务更多客户，柜员总数反而增加了。

But because they were opening new branches to serve more customers, the number of tellers went up.

另一个动态是，有时机器或技术会完全自动化某人的工作，但更常见的情况是，只是你工作的一部分被自动化了。

And another is this dynamic that there are some cases where machines or technology just automate a 100% of someone's job, but it's actually more common that, you know, a part of your job is automated.

研究人员和经济学家喜欢说，被自动化的是任务，而不是工作。

Researchers, economists like to say that, you know, tasks are automated, not jobs.

你知道吗？

You know?

对于银行柜员来说，也许他们花在点钞和给客户现金上的时间变少了，因为ATM可以做这些，但这意味着柜员有了更多时间去做ATM无法完成的事情，比如与客户交谈，说：嘿。

So for bank tellers, maybe they spent less time counting cash and handing it to customers because the ATM could do that, But that meant that the bank tellers had more time to do things that ATMs could not do, like talk to customers and say, hey.

你有没有考虑过在我们银行申请一张信用卡？

Have you thought about signing up for a credit card with our bank?

或者，你知道的，嘿。

Or, you know, hey.

我们有很棒的财务顾问，可以帮助你规划退休生活。

We have great financial advisers who could help you plan for retirement.

因此，虽然机器被明确设计用来自动化他们的工作，但并没有必然导致他们失业，因为他们可以利用节省下来的时间做其他事情。

And so a machine explicitly designed to automate their job didn't necessarily put them out of work because they could do other things with the team the time that it freed up.

所以，你知道，当大家都在为人工智能感到担忧时，我想到了银行柜员，我并不想说你就应该因此完全乐观，当然，自动化也可能会带来一些负面后果。

So, you know, I think about bank tellers as everyone is fretting, as many of us are fretting about AI, and I wouldn't say that that means you should just be sanguine and definitely, like, there can never be bad repercussions of of automation.

确实有些人会因为自动化而受到伤害，你知道的，失去工作。

There certainly are people who can, be hurt by automation, you know, lose their jobs.

但我认为关键在于，这些转变往往没有你想象的那么迅速和突然。

And, but I think the big takeaway is that a lot of these transitions are not as fast and sudden as you might think.

有时间去适应。

There's time to adjust.

而且，你知道，问题不在于工作直接消失，而在于工作发生了变化。

And, you know, it's less that jobs just go away, and it's more that jobs change.

适应变化很重要。

And it's important to be adaptable.

嗯，我觉得关于人工智能令人担忧的是，ATM机影响了银行柜员的工作，但没影响太多其他人。

Well, I guess the scary thing about AI is, you know, the ATM affected jobs for bank tellers, but not many other people.

人工智能影响各种各样的工作。

AI affects all kinds of jobs.

我认为，在自动化可能影响大量工作的当下，这一点尤为重要。

I think it is really important at a time like this when there's a potential for automation to impact a lot of jobs.

你知道，像人工智能这样的技术是一种通用技术，可能影响各种工作，而ATM机主要只影响银行柜员。

You know, something like AI is a perhaps a general purpose technology that could impact all sorts of jobs as opposed to the ATM that just more impacted bank tellers.

因此，我认为在这种情况下，政界人士和我们每个人都应该认真思考：我们该如何帮助那些可能受到这种影响的劳动者。

And so I think that's a case where it is really important for, like, politicians and all of us should be thinking about, you know, how can we help workers who will be impacted by this or might be impacted by this.

信用卡如今已成为人们金融生活中不可或缺的一部分，我知道它们以许多人都没意识到的方式影响着我们的金钱。

Credit cards have become such an integral part of people's financial life today, and I know they impact our money in ways that a lot of people may not realize.

接下来我想问问你关于这一点。

So I wanna ask you about that next.

我们正在讨论那些影响你金钱的力量，其中一些你可能没有意识到。

We're talking about the forces that affect your money, some of which you may not realize.

我正在与《星球金钱》播客的亚历克斯·梅亚西交谈，他著有一本书，名为《星球金钱：塑造你生活的经济力量指南》。

I'm speaking with Alex Mayyasi from the podcast PLANET MONEY, and he's author of a book called PLANET MONEY A GUIDE TO THE ECONOMIC FORCES THAT SHAPE YOUR LIFE.

那么我们来谈谈信贷，亚历克斯，特别是信用卡，因为它们已经真正成为我们购买众多商品的工具。

So let's talk about credit, Alex, specifically credit cards since they've become they really become the tool we use to buy so many things.

信用卡刚发明时简直不可思议，这其实是一个很难解决的鸡生蛋还是蛋生鸡的问题：要让商家接受信用卡，你需要大量已经使用信用卡的顾客；而要让顾客愿意使用，又需要大量商家支持。

Credit cards when they were invented were kind of incredible where they they it's this really hard chicken and egg problem that, you know, to get stores to accept credit cards, you need lots of customers who are already using them.

要让顾客愿意使用信用卡，就需要大量商家签约。

To get customers to wanna use them, you need lots of stores signed up.

因此，银行和信用卡公司提供了一项非常有用的服务，帮助顾客和商家共同采纳这种支付方式。

So banks and credit card companies did this really useful service of of getting both customers and stores to adopt them.

对商家来说，这简直是一笔绝佳的交易。

And for stores, was, you know, it was this great deal.

当时的情况是，你们得追着客户一个个收小额欠款，还要跟踪每个客户欠了你们多少钱。

It was like, hey, you're chasing down all these little debts from customers, keeping track of how much your customers owe you.

我们来接手这些事。

We'll take all that on.

我们会迅速、及时地付钱给你们，然后自己承担所有催收账款的麻烦和烦恼。

We'll pay you quickly and promptly, and then we'll take on all the pain and annoyance of of, you know, getting those bills paid.

这确实是个不错的交易，也让大家能在全球各地使用维萨卡、万事达卡。

And it was, you know, it was a it was a good deal, and it made it possible to, know, use your Visa card, your Mastercard all over the world.

但我觉得随着时间推移，通过技术手段在不同银行间转账已经变得容易多了，但信用卡仍然收取非常高的费用。

But I think as time has gone on, you know, the the ability to, you know, have move money from one bank to another, That's become a lot easier thanks to technology, but credit cards still charge these very high fees.

顾客可能很少想到这一点，但每次你在商店刷信用卡时，信用卡公司和银行很可能向商家收取交易金额的2.5%作为手续费。

I don't think customers think about them that often, but every time you use a credit card at a store, there's a good chance that the credit card companies and banks are charging that store maybe two and a half percent of the cost of the transaction as a fee for for, you know, the credit card transaction.

这听起来可能不多，但你要记住，对于餐厅或咖啡店来说，每笔交易的总利润可能只有4%，甚至只有2.5%。

And that might not sound like a a lot, but you have to remember that, like, for a restaurant or a coffee shop, their entire profit margin on the transaction might be 4%, maybe two and a half percent.

也许他们有些交易根本没赚到钱，全部利润都进了维萨卡的口袋。

Maybe they just don't make any profit on some transactions and it all goes to Visa.

因此，这里有一种奇怪的经济现象：对顾客来说，感觉就像是在免费获得各种东西。

And so there there is this strange economics going on where to customers, it just feels like you're getting offered free stuff.

但你之所以能获得这些免费福利，是因为银行希望你使用他们的信用卡。

But the reason you're getting that free stuff is because, you know, the banks, they want you to use their credit cards.

它们可以收取这些费用，但商店必须承担这些费用。

They can charge these fees, But then stores have to pay those fees.

那么商店该怎么办呢？

So what do stores do?

它们会提高价格。

They raise their prices.

所以我们现在因为信用卡手续费而支付更高的价格。

So now we're paying higher prices because of credit card fees.

这非常隐蔽，但却有一种恶劣的逆向罗宾汉效应：如果你比较富裕，信用评分高，拥有一张能提供大量里程和现金返还的优质信用卡，那你确实因为信用卡手续费而支付了更高的店价，但你很可能通过积分、里程和各种信用卡福利把这部分钱又赚回来了。

And so it's it's very hidden, but there is this kind of pernicious reverse Robin Hood effect where, you know, if you're pretty wealthy, you have a good credit score, you have this great credit card that gives you all sorts of miles and cash back, you know, you're paying a bit higher prices at stores because of credit card fees, but you probably get that back in the form of your, you know, points and miles and and all those perks from your credit card.

但对于信用评分不高、手头不宽裕的人来说，他们可能用现金或借记卡支付，得不到任何优惠，只能被动承担商店因信用卡手续费而提高的价格，却得不到任何回报。

But, you know, for someone who doesn't have a great credit score, they don't have that much money, they're probably paying in cash or with the debit cards, they're not getting benefits, you know, they just have to pay those higher fees that the store is charging because of credit card fees, but they're not getting that back.

所以，低收入人群实际上在间接补贴那些高收入人群所享受的积分和现金返还福利。

So there's this kind of, you know, indirect subsidy by lower income people of those points and cash back benefits that that more affluent people get to enjoy.

我想我知道答案，但为什么有些零售商不愿意接受美国运通卡呢？

And, well, I think I know the answer to this, but why is it that some retailers don't wanna take American Express?

因为美国运通收取的交易手续费非常高，他们用这笔钱来为自己的高收入客户提供极其丰厚的福利。

Because American Express charges a really, really high transaction fee that they then use to pay out these really great benefits to, you know, their affluent customers.

但过去十多年里，许多使用Visa或万事达卡的银行也推出了提供极其丰厚奖励的信用卡。

But, you know, lots of banks that use Visa or Mastercard have also, over the past ten plus years, put out, you know, credit cards that give you really, really great rewards.

因此，它们也收取了与美国运通卡类似的高额手续费。

And, therefore, they also charge those high fees, more similar to an American Express card.

但商家不能说不。

But stores can't say, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

我们不想接受这些高手续费的信用卡，因为维萨说不行。

We don't wanna accept those higher fee credit cards because Visa says, no.

如果你想要接受维萨卡，就必须接受所有维萨卡，包括那些手续费更高的卡。

If you wanna accept Visa, you gotta accept all Visa cards, even the one with higher fees.

因此，这场诉讼声称：嘿。

And so this lawsuit was saying, hey.

我们不应该被迫接受这种行为，这属于反竞争行为。

We shouldn't have to you know, that's anticompetitive behavior.

最终法院作出了裁决，支持零售商和商家，认为他们应当有权区分手续费高低不同的信用卡。

And, you know, a ruling did come down that that sided with the retailers and stores against the credit card companies saying that they should be able to distinguish between, you know, credit cards with higher and lower fees.

所以，我们可能会看到这里发生一些变化。

So it is possible we will see changes here.

我认为密切关注此事的人对商家是否真会开始对使用这些高端信用卡的顾客收费持怀疑态度。

I think people who watch this closely are a bit skeptical that stores will really wanna start charging fees to people who use some of these kind of, like, fancier credit cards.

这些顾客往往就是你日常服务的对象，你真的愿意告诉他们这些吗？

Those are often customers who you know, it's it's just something you do do you really wanna tell your customers?

哦，嗨。

Oh, hey.

你不得不使用它，感觉像是零敲碎打，如果你想用那种卡，就得多付一点钱。

You have to use it feels like nickel and dime, and you have to pay a little bit more if you wanna use that card.

但这是我们可能在信用卡问题上走向更好局面的一种潜在方式。

But that is one potential way that we might get to a better place with credit cards.

股市确实已经不同于过去你购买个股的时代了。

The stock market has certainly changed from the days of where you would buy individual stocks.

那时你需要股票经纪人。

You needed a stockbroker.

当时有很多费用，而现在人们购买共同基金。

There were a lot of fees, and now people buy mutual funds.

那这一切是怎么发生的呢？

And how did that happen?

真正改变的是先锋基金的崛起。

What really changed was the rise of Vanguard.

对吧？

Right?

先锋基金是一家华尔街公司，但你并不是去那里买卖个股的。

And Vanguard is, you know, Wall Street firm, but not a place you go to to buy and sell individual stocks.

你去先锋基金的主要目的，正如你之前所说，是购买指数基金。

The main thing you go to Vanguard for and what their original purpose was was index funds, as you said earlier.

这是一种方式，让你不必买卖个股，而是几乎投资整个股市。

A way to, instead of buying and selling individual stocks, just more or less almost invest in the entire stock market.

因此，随着整个股市因经济通常增长而上涨，你的钱也会随之增长。

And so as the entire stock market grows because the economy tends to grow, then, you know, your money will grow too.

非常简单，非常基础。

Very simple, very basic.

而且他们的收费非常、非常、非常低。

And they charge very, very, very low fees.

你知道，虽然花了一些时间，但指数基金最终大受欢迎，这极大地挤压了华尔街那些希望你把钱交给他们、并因他们‘聪明’能帮你投资而收取高额费用的金融从业者。

And, you know, it took a while, but index funds really took off, and that has really squeezed all those people on Wall Street, all those financiers who want you to give them their money, and they wanna charge you high fees because they're really smart, and they know how to invest your money.

他们知道如何挑选赢家。

They know how to pick winners.

我认为在很大程度上，这确实是一个巨大的进步。

And I think for the most part, like, that has been a great development.

大多数研究一致发现，那些被支付了非常高额报酬来为人们管理退休储蓄的主动投资者，根本配不上我们付给他们的钱。

Like, most research has consistently found that those active investors, the people who have been paid very, very healthy amounts of money to invest people's retirement savings for them, just were not worth the money we were paying them.

人们用指数基金反而更好。

Like, they were people were better off with index funds.

市场确实做出了回应。

And the markets really responded.

越来越多的资金流入了指数基金，这极大地挤压了那些曾经靠说服人们把投资储蓄交给你、承诺帮你打理而赚得盆满钵满的公司。

Like, more and more and more money has flowed into index funds, and it's really squeezed a lot of those firms that used to make a really good living by convincing people to give me your your investment savings, and I'll I'll invest it for you.

我认为，这在很大程度上体现了中产阶级和普通人从华尔街、从金融行业获得了更好的待遇。

And I think, like, that's largely been, an example of, like, the middle class and the average person getting a better deal from Wall Street, a better deal, from finance.

指数基金是一种绝佳的金融产品。

Like, the index fund is a fantastic financial product.

然后，过去几年里，看到投资和金融领域最大的趋势——至少对普通消费者而言——是使用像Robinhood这样的产品，把股票市场越来越当作一种娱乐方式、一种赌博行为，这确实很奇怪。

And then, you know, it has been strange over the last years to see how, you know, the the biggest trend in in investing in finance, least for kind of, like, your average consumer, is to use a product like Robinhood and treat, the the stock stock market more and more like gambling, as something to have fun with, to make bets with.

我认为，人们一直某种程度上把华尔街看作赌博，但如今，你的手机金融应用简直就像一个随身携带的赌场。

And I think that's, you know, there's a way where people have always seen Wall Street as as gambling in a way, but, of course, this has made it more like, you know, your your the finance app on your phone is a casino in your pocket.

但正如我们所知，真正的赌场永远有利于庄家，从不利于赌徒。

But as we know, casinos real gambling always favors the house, never favors the gambler.

所以

So

是的。

Yes.

我想我希望更多人能明白的是，如果你使用像Robinhood这样的应用，它是完全免费的。

And I think this is a thing I would love for more people to understand is that if you use an app like Robinhood, it is completely free.

你可以自由买卖股票，完全不需要花钱。

You can buy and sell stocks, it doesn't cost you any money.

因此，你应当好好问自己一个问题。

And so there's a very good question you should ask yourself there.

那为什么对我免费呢？

It's why is this free for me?

通常的答案是，你能免费买卖股票，是因为金融界有人想成为你交易的对手方，所以他们愿意承担这些成本。

And usually the answer is that you are able to buy and sell stocks for free because someone, you know, in finance on Wall Street wants to be on the other side of your trade, and so they are willing to kind of front that costs.

对吧？

Right?

他们非常乐意成为你交易的对手方，因为他们觉得你会做出糟糕的交易，所以愿意承接你的交易和赌注。

They are basically very happy to, like, take the other side of your trades because they think you are gonna make bad trades, so they are willing to take the other side of your trades and your bets.

这就是为什么你能免费买卖股票的原因。

And that is why you are able to buy and sell for free.

这在很大程度上解释了，为什么如今普通个人买卖股票会如此便捷、免费。

Like, that is largely the reason why it is frictionless, free to buy and sell stocks as, you know, an individual average person nowadays.

因为华尔街有很多人把你视为‘傻钱’，他们想成为你的对手方，因为他们相信自己能从你身上赚钱，就像你所说的——庄家永远赢。

It's because lots of people on Wall Street see you as dumb money, and they wanna take the other side of your trades because they think they will make money off of you in the same way that you're talking about, like, house always wins.

这真是一些关于经济如何运作、我们的钱如何运作、什么影响它的非常宝贵而有趣的见解。

Well, this has been some really valuable and interesting insight into how the economy works, how our money works, what affects it.

我真的很享受这次对话。

I really enjoyed this.

我刚刚和来自播客《Planet Money》的亚历克斯·梅亚西交谈，他著有一本书，名为《Planet Money：解读塑造你生活的经济力量》。

I've been speaking with Alex Mayyasi from the podcast Planet Money, and he's author of a book called Planet Money, a guide to the economic forces that shape your life.

节目说明中提供了这本书的链接。

There's a link to that book in the show notes.

亚历克斯，太棒了。

And, Alex, great.

谢谢。

Thanks.

非常感谢你抽出时间。

Thank you so much for your time.

我很感谢你的提问和我们一起探讨这个话题。

Was I appreciate your questions and talking about this.

辞职的名声不太好。

Quitting has a bad reputation.

我们从小被教导说，放弃的人是失败者，成功来自于毅力、坚持和永不放弃。

We're taught that quitters are losers, that success comes from grit, persistence, and never giving up.

很多时候确实如此，但并非总是如此。

And often that's true, but not always.

有时候，放弃恰恰是正确的选择。

Sometimes quitting is exactly the right move.

事实上，知道何时该离开，并且妥善地做到这一点，可能是你做出的最明智的决定之一。

In fact, knowing when to walk away and doing it well can be one of the smartest decisions you'll ever make.

真正的挑战在于分辨何时该坚持、何时该放手，而这正是杰弗里·洛克伍德要和我们讨论的内容。

The real challenge is figuring out the difference, when to push through and when to let go, And that is what Jeffrey Lockwood is here to discuss.

他是怀俄明大学的自然科学与人文学教授，也是《好的放弃：掌握放手的微妙艺术》一书的作者。

He's a professor of natural sciences and humanities at the University of Wyoming and author of the book, The Good Quit, Mastering the Fine Art of Giving Up.

你好，杰弗里。

Hi, Jeffrey.

欢迎来到《你应该知道的事》。

Welcome to something you should know.

嘿，迈克。

Hey, Mike.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

所以我认为，当人们听到‘放弃’或‘ quitting’这个词时，会有非常直接的反应。

So I think people have a very immediate reaction when they hear the word quit or quitting.

这个词并没有好的含义，你知道，放弃不是你应该做的事。

It doesn't have a good connotation to it that, you know, quitting is not what you do.

你要坚持，你要挺过去，你要靠自己的努力爬起来，但你就是不能放弃。

You you persevere, you tough it out, you you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but you just don't quit.

但你对放弃有着非常不同的看法。

But you have a very different view of quitting.

那么请你解释一下这是什么。

So explain what that is.

嗯，我并不会说当情况变艰难或事情变得困难时，我就主张放弃。

Well, I wouldn't say that I am a a an advocate of quitting when the times get tough or when things get hard.

但放弃中也蕴含着一种智慧，即知道何时、如何以及为何该放手。

But there is a kind of, wisdom about quitting, knowing when and how and why to give up.

因此，我认为放弃远比单纯的品格缺陷要复杂得多。

And so quitting is, I think, is much more complicated than that's a character flaw.

它是生活的一部分，而明智的放弃是充实人生的一部分。

It's part of living, and and wise quitting is part of a a full life.

那你所说的明智的放弃是指什么？

And your definition of wise quitting is what?

我认为明智的放弃体现的是希腊人所说的‘实践智慧’（phronesis）。

I would say that wise quitting reflects, well, what the Greeks called phronesis or practical wisdom.

它某种程度上是……嗯，我该怎么说呢？

And it's kind of a combination of, you know, like, how should I put this?

书本知识和街头智慧的结合。

Book learning and street smarts.

对吧？

Right?

这既是理性的思考，也是情感上的成熟。

It's both rational thought, but it's also emotionally sophisticated.

因此，这是一个复杂的 endeavor，我认为通过实践我们会越来越擅长。

So it's a complicated endeavor or something that I think we get better at with practice.

归根结底，更明智的良好退出，是指个人在正确的时机、以正确的方式、出于正确的原因选择退出。

And really, I guess what it comes down to is a wiser good quit is one that in which an individual quits for the right reasons, at the right time, and in the right way.

而这三个方面中的任何一个，我们都可能搞砸。

And any one of those we can screw up.

当你生活中有一件事让你考虑放弃时，对我来说，这正是典型的‘当局者迷’。

When you have something in your life that you're thinking about quitting, it is to me, it's kind of the quintessential you can't see the forest for the trees.

你离它太近了，只能看到自己是不是该放弃，却无法真正判断清楚。

You're so close to it that you can see maybe I should quit, maybe I shouldn't, you can't really tell.

你需要一些旁观者的视角。

You need some perspective.

在决定这是否是一次明智的退出时，我们可以做的一件事是寻求朋友、导师或我们尊重的人的意见。

One of the things that we can do in terms of trying to decide whether this is a good quit is to engage our friends, to engage mentors, people we respect.

问问他们，我是太轻易放弃了，还是在盲目坚持？

Ask them, am I quitting too easily or conversely, am I foolishly persisting?

然后你继续前进，去审视它，但我认为我们需要从放弃中吸取教训。

And then you move on, you look at it, but I think we need to learn from a quit.

那么，那次放弃达到了我希望的效果吗？

Well, did that do what I wanted it to do?

还是我应该再坚持一会儿？

Or should I have hung in there a little bit longer?

因此，我们可能会感到后悔。

And so it's possible that we can regret.

而后悔是一种信号，表明我们本应该或本可以做得不一样。

And regret is a sign that we we should or could have done otherwise.

而这正是学习的一部分。

And that's part of learning.

是的。

Yeah.

但这也可能只是因为你不了解，现在成了未选择的路，然后你幻想它本可以多么美好，但你其实并不知道，也许放弃反而是个好主意。

But it could also just be you regret because you don't know and now it's the road not taken and then you can fantas fantasize about how wonderful it might have been, but you don't really know and maybe quitting was a good idea.

我的意思是，当我想到放弃时，我首先想到的是工作。

I mean, who when I think of quitting mostly, I think of when I first heard hear the word, I think of like a job.

我想，你知道的，辞掉工作，你什么时候该辞职？情况得有多糟糕才值得离开？你该不该再坚持一下？这一直是个难题，因为如果你已经有工作，找新工作会更容易，但你现在的这份工作可能就是糟透了。

I think, you know, quit your job and when do you quit and is how unbearable does it have to get or what has to happen and should you hang in there and, you know, and that's always a tough one because, you know, it's easier to get another job if you've already got one and but the job you have may just be horrible.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

这真的很难。

It's really hard.

你谈到辞去工作，这让我想起疫情后所谓的‘大辞职潮’，当时出现了前所未有的辞职浪潮，每月大约有四百万人辞职。

You talk about quitting work, and that's that's, you know, we had what what are they called the great resignation, you know, following COVID, where there was this unprecedented wave of resignation, something like 4,000,000 jobs a month were being were being quit.

人们辞职的原因多种多样：更高的薪酬、更大的灵活性、更多家庭时间、更好的福利，还有倦怠和健康风险。

And people were doing it for all kinds of reasons, greater pay, greater flexibility, family time, benefits, plus burnout and health risks.

而所有这些原因都将是高度个性化的。

And all of those are going to be radically individualized.

你知道吗，古希腊人谈论过美德，对吧？

You know, Greeks talked about virtue, right?

而美德是一种实现人类潜能的生活方式，但他们也意识到，即使在那时，也不是所有人都有相同的能力。

And virtue was sort of leading a life that fulfilled the human potential, but they realized, you know, even back then, that not all people have the same capacities.

所以一个著名的例子是，对平民来说是勇敢的行为，对士兵来说可能是怯懦。

And so the famous example is, you know, what is courageous for a civilian might be cowardly for a soldier.

因此，我们拥有不同的能力、不同的天赋和不同的承受力。

And so we have different capacities, different abilities, different tolerances.

你能承受多大的压力？

How much stress can you take?

你知道，你能承受多少焦虑？

You know, how much how much anxiety can you take?

忍受这份工作，是会让你在公司内部获得更好的机会，还是应该直接跳槽？

How much does move does putting up with this position set you up to move to a better position within that company versus jumping ship?

当你开始综合考虑所有这些因素时，最终会得到一份巨大的电子表格，里面全是无法比较的数字。

And you start factoring in all of those considerations and you end up with some, I guess, giant spreadsheet filled with numbers that are incommensurable.

你不能把苹果和橙子加在一起。

You can't add apples and oranges.

工资减少两万美元，与消化不良、失眠和胃溃疡相比，值不值？

How much is a $20,000 cut in pay worth versus indigestion, sleepless nights, and an ulcer?

你知道，金钱和健康之间的权衡是什么？

You know, money versus health, what are those trade offs?

这不会是我们能用公式来计算的东西。

It's not going to be something that we're going to be able to apply a formula to.

个人关系也是同样的道理。

Same thing with personal relationships.

你该在一家雇主那里待多久？

How long do you hang in with an employer?

你该和一个伴侣维持关系多久？

How long do you hang in with a partner?

你该在一个俱乐部或组织里待多久？

How long do you hang in with a club or an organization?