当一无所知反而带来优势时 & 经证实的长寿之道

今天在《你该知道的事》节目中，你会上哪里去网上获取医疗信息？

Today on Something You Should Know, where do you go to get medical information on the internet?

我会告诉你一个比大多数地方都更好的地方，而你很可能以前从未听说过它。

I'll tell you about a place that's better than most, and you've probably never heard of it before.

在大多数情况下，有经验是好事。

Then in most situations having experience is good.

但作为一个新手，什么都不知道，甚至可能更好。

But being a novice and knowing nothing might even be better.

当然，多年的经验和实践有其价值，但在我们今天所做的大量工作中，当我们知道得最少时，往往表现得最好。

Of course there's a case to be made for years of experience and practice but in so much of the work we do today, we tend to be at our best when we know the very least.

你有没有即使不是你的错，也会向别人道歉？

Also, do you ever apologize to people even when it isn't your fault?

你为什么需要停止这样做？

Why you need to stop doing that?

在中国有一个偏远的村庄，那里的人几乎从不生病，而且活得异常长寿。

And there's a remote village in China where people there almost never get sick and live a remarkably long time.

为什么？

Why?

我们试图分析过，你知道的，是空气中的什么因素，还是水里的什么成分，或者其他原因，但最终总是回到最基本的东西上。

We tried to analyze it, you know, was it something in the air, something in the water, something else, but it really just kept coming back to the basics.

今天所有这些内容，尽在《你应当知道的事》。

All this today on something you should know.

《你应当知道的事》——带来引人入胜的资讯、全球顶尖专家的见解，以及你能在生活中实际应用的实用建议。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

今天，《你应当知道的事》为您带来迈克·卡鲁瑟斯的分享。

Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

嗨，欢迎收听。

Hi, and welcome.

你知道，我刚刚从一场挺严重的感冒中恢复过来，像大多数人一样，我敢肯定你也生过病，然后上网去搜索症状，想弄清楚它们是什么、有哪些治疗选择，以及这一切意味着什么。

You know, I'm just getting over this pretty nasty cold I had and like most people, I'm sure you probably have gotten sick and gone to the internet to Google your symptoms to see what they are and what your treatment options are and what it all means.

但问题是，当你这么做的时候，往往反而比开始时更困惑了。

And the problem is that when you do that, you often end up more confused than when you started.

因为网上大量的医疗信息令人困惑、相互矛盾，甚至完全是错误的。

Because so much medical information online is confusing and contradictory and just plain wrong.

那你能做什么呢？

So what do you do?

你该如何分辨哪些是真实的，哪些是胡说八道？

How do you figure out what's true and what's nonsense?

在这方面取得最大进展的，可能是科克伦协作组织的人。

Well, perhaps the people who have made the most progress on this are the people at the Cochrane Collaboration.

网址是 cochrane.org。

That's cochrane.org.

cochrane.org。

Cochrane.org.

这是一个成立于20世纪90年代初的国际非营利组织，你可能从未听说过它，但它却是当今最可靠的无偏见医疗信息来源之一。

They're an international not for profit that was established in the early 1990s and you've probably never heard of it, But it is one of the best sources for unbiased medical information in existence today.

事实上，在你去谷歌或WebMD之前，他们应该是你的第一选择。

And really, they should probably be your first stop before you go to Google or WebMD.

他们所做的就是研究关于疾病、疗法和治疗的各类研究，以判断哪些有真实证据支持，哪些没有。

What they do is they study the studies on illness, disease, remedies, treatments to see which ones have real evidence to support their claims and which ones don't.

这个理念很简单：涉及成千上万患者的众多研究，比任何单一研究或个案都能更接近真相。

The idea is simple: Many studies involving thousands of patients will get us closer to the truth than any single study or anecdote ever could.

如今在Cochrane，你可以找到从针灸效果到预防偏头痛（他们认为可能有效）再到用蔓越莓汁治疗膀胱感染（他们认为可能无效）等各种主题的综述。

Today at Cochrane, you'll find reviews on everything from the effects of acupuncture to preventing migraines, which they say can work, to the usefulness of using cranberry juice to treat bladder infections, which they say probably does not work.

Cochrane背后那些勤奋的人们甚至将他们的结论翻译成通俗易懂的摘要和音频播客。

The hardworking people behind Cochrane even translate their conclusions into plain language summaries and audio podcasts.

所以下次当你有医疗问题时，在依赖互联网上不可靠的信息之前，先去查看cochrane.org。

So next time, check out cochrane.org when you have a medical question before you rely on questionable sources on the Internet.

这是一条你应该知道的信息。

And that is something you should know.

你有没有过这样的经历：当你尝试一件完全陌生、与以往任何经历都截然不同的事情时，感觉像离水的鱼一样不自在？

Have you ever been in that situation where you're trying something completely new, totally different than anything you've done before, and you feel like such a fish out of water?

比如当你学习一种新的乐器，或者选修一门你完全不懂的课程时。

Like when you learn a new musical instrument or you take a class in something that you know nothing about.

或者更重要的是，当你进入一个新领域或新行业工作时，而你之前从事的行业或工作已经过时了。

Or more importantly, when you start a job in a new field or a new industry because the job or the field or the industry you've been in has become obsolete.

我知道我自己在从事广播工作时，转型做播客就经历过这种情况。

I know I went through this myself when I was working in radio and transitioned into podcasting.

这一直是创新的副作用。

And this has always been a side effect of innovation.

一些行业和工作消失了，而新的工作和行业则应运而生。

Some industries and jobs disappear while new jobs and industries emerge.

但当你身处其中，尤其是必须亲自完成这种转变时，可能会非常困难。

But when you're in the midst of it, if you actually have to make that transition yourself, it can be very difficult.

但其中也有积极的一面。

But there is a silver lining.

事实证明，进入一份新工作、一个新行业或任何新环境，即使当时看似并非如此，也具有巨大的优势。

It turns out that coming into a new job or a new industry or any new situation has tremendous advantages, even if it doesn't seem so at the time.

莉兹·威斯曼是一位研究者和顾问，她被评为全球十大最具影响力的领导力思想家之一。

Liz Wiseman is a researcher, advisor, and and she has been ranked as one of the top 10 leadership thinkers in the world.

她是位于硅谷的威斯曼集团的总裁，这是一家领导力研究与发展公司，同时也是《新手智慧：为何在新的职场游戏中学习胜过已知》一书的作者。

She is president of the Wiseman Group, a leadership research and development firm in Silicon Valley, and she is author of the book Rookie Smarts, Why Learning Beats Knowing in the New Game of Work.

你好，莉兹。

Hi, Liz.

这怎么可能呢？

So how can this be?

在我们的文化中，经验和资历备受推崇，那为什么一无所知反而会成为优势呢？

How can how can not knowing anything be an advantage when, in our culture anyway, experience in and paying your dues is so highly regarded?

实际上，与传统观念相反，当我们知道得最少的时候，往往表现得最好。

Actually, contrary to what might be conventional wisdom, we we tend to be at our best when we know the very least.

当我们对某件事一无所知、天真无邪的时候。

When we're new to something and when we're naive.

当我们处于新手状态时，无知中蕴含着力量。

And when we're in that rookie state, there's power in not knowing.

我认为这是我研究中发现的结论。

I think is what I found in my research.

在陡峭的学习曲线底部，有一种特别的东西。

There's something about being at the bottom of a steep learning curve.

我们最好的思维和最佳的能力往往在这种时候被激发出来。

That the best of our thinking and the best of our capability tends to kick in.

这种状态很大程度上源于一种渴望、谦逊、略带绝望甚至完全绝望的工作态度。

Really kind of fueled by a hungry, humble, slightly desperate or maybe totally desperate approach to our work.

但这种情况通常适用于刚毕业或完全新手的人，他们从底层开始，因为好奇和渴望知识而学习，这对他们来说很好。

But that typically applies, and the situation is typically that it's somebody, you know, fresh out of college or, you know, who's brand new, and they start at the bottom and they learn because they're curious and they're hungry for knowledge, and that's great for them.

但如果你曾经在其他行业、其他公司或不同岗位工作过，这又怎么成为优势呢？

But if you're somebody who's been in a different industry or in a different company or in a different job, how is that an advantage?

迈克，我想在这方面说清楚。

I want to be clear, Mike, on this.

并不是当我们对任何事情都陌生的时候。

It's not that when we're new to anything.

而是当我们对重要且困难的事情陌生的时候。

It's when we're new to something important and hard.

当一件事既重要、又困难、而我们又对此陌生时，这种三重组合往往会激发我们最好的思考和最佳的工作表现。

There's something about this trifecta between it's important, it's hard, and we're new to it that tends to prompt our best thinking and our best work.

这是一种状态。

It's a state.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't that interesting?

整个劳动力市场。

The workforce.

你说工作必须是困难的，这是为什么？

That you say that the work has to be hard.

为什么？

That why?

为什么事情越困难，你反而做得越好？

What is it about the fact that things are more difficult that makes you better at it?

这大概就是飞行员会切换开关、关闭自动驾驶、手动操控飞机的原因。

It's probably what would cause a pilot to flip the switch and take the jet off of autopilot.

你知道，当环境稳定时，我们往往会进入自动驾驶模式工作。

You know, when conditions are stable, we tend to work in autopilot.

我以前见过这个问题。

I've seen this problem before.

我知道怎么解决它。

I know how to solve it.

我们会不假思索地搬出所有旧有的假设和工作方式，照搬照用。

We conjure up all of our old assumptions, our old ways of working, and we apply it mindlessly.

在某些方面，这是一种高效的工作方式，但同时也是一种空洞的工作方式。

And you know in some ways it's a productive way of working but it's a bit of a vacuous way of working.

然而，当某件事既困难又重要时，比如在冰风暴中降落飞机，你就不能依赖自动驾驶了。

However, when something is hard and it's important, like landing a plane in an ice storm, That's when you can't rely on autopilot.

这时，你会进入一种高度警觉、主动探究和持续学习的状态。

This is when you go into sort of heightened states of observation, of inquiry, and of learning.

但学习和处于这种高度学习状态之间是有区别的，后者能让你变得更好，而经验则不然。

But there's a difference between learning and being in this heightened state of learning and that makes you better and experience.

学习与经验。

Learning and experience.

我可以想象，听到这些话时会想：等等，不对吧。

I could imagine listening to this and saying, Well, wait a minute.

我宁愿让一位有经验的心脏外科医生为我做手术，而不是一个刚入行、还在学习、更投入且不在自动驾驶模式的医生。

I would much rather have an experienced heart surgeon operate on me than a guy who's new at it because he's learning better and he's, he's more engaged and he's not on autopilot.

我更愿意选择那位已经做过上百万次手术、处于自动驾驶模式的心脏外科医生。

I'd rather have the, the heart surgeon who's on autopilot because he's done it a million times before.

你知道吗，迈克，我得承认，我也会这么选。

You know, and Mike, I have to confess I would too.

是的，我知道你会。

Yeah, I know you would.

你不想让一个新手外科医生给你做手术。

Don't want a rookie surgeon.

你也不想让一个新手牙医给你看牙。

You don't want a rookie dentist.

你知道吗，如果你要去跳伞，你肯定不想绑在一个说‘哇，我也是’的人身上。

You know, if you're going to go skydiving, don't really want to strap on to the guy who says like, Woo, me too.

这是我的第一次。

This is my first time.

当然，我在研究中发现，在涉及身体技能的物理世界中。

Certainly what I found in the research is in the physical world where it involves physical mastery.

你知道，经验远胜于缺乏经验。

You know, experience far trumps inexperience.

但在知识型工作中，我们发现缺乏经验往往是一种优势。

But in knowledge work, we find that being inexperienced tends to be an advantage.

这是因为知识型工作中的情况通常是，我们甚至不会遇到两次相同的问题。

And it's because of what's happening in our knowledge work is that often we don't even face the same problem twice.

你知道，技术让我们的工作周期变得飞快，新问题接踵而至，我们不可能再靠‘我做过这个手术两百次了’这样的经验来应对。

You know, technology has allowed our cycles to spin so fast that new problems are coming at us at a rate where we can't just draw on, oh, I've done this surgery, you know, 200 times.

如果你说的没错，如果新手状态真的是一种优势，那这种优势我认为只有在你真正利用它时才会成立。

If what you say is true, if if being in that rookie mode really is an advantage, it's only an advantage, I would imagine, if you act on it.

换句话说，当你处于新手状态时，很容易躲在角落里说：我不懂这个。

In other words, it's very easy when you're in that rookie state to sit in the corner and say, I don't understand this.

我最好还是退到一旁观察，不要真正参与，因为当新手真的很让人害怕。

I better just sit back and watch and not really engage because being a rookie is intimidating.

没错，当我们面对陡峭的学习曲线时，通常会有两种反应。

Right, and we find that faced with a really steep learning curve, there's usually one of two reactions.

一种是躲在角落里生闷气、哭闹，甚至精神崩溃。

There's either the I'm gonna sit in the corner and sulk, cry, have a nervous breakdown.

你知道，人们通常要么回避这些挑战，要么迎难而上。

You know, like people tend to either back away from these challenges or they dig in.

他们会把节奏放慢，一点一点地艰难攀登。

You know, and they kind of throw it into low gear and they grind their way up it.

我认为，当我们处于学习曲线的底部时，进入新手状态非常重要。

And I think it is important when we are at the bottom of a learning curve to go into this rookie mode.

我们发现，人们在新手状态下往往会主动寻求帮助。

And what we find people tend to do in this rookie mode is they ask for help.

他们提出好问题。

They ask good questions.

他们质疑现有的假设。

They question prevailing assumptions.

他们缺乏很多专业知识，因此被迫去向他人寻求。

They don't bring a lot of expertise, so they're forced to go out and get it from others.

所以，他们往往会调动并整合专业知识，用以解决一个问题。

So, they tend to mobilize and integrate expertise and bring that to bear on a problem.

在这种状态下，我们往往会简化问题。

In this mode, we tend to simplify.

你知道，我们懂得不够多，无法把事情复杂化。

You know, we don't know enough to complexify things.

因此，我们更擅长识别我们真正要解决的核心问题。

So, we tend to be better at identifying what is the core problem we're trying to solve here.

比如，客户是谁？

Like who's the customer?

我们到底想做什么？

What are we trying to do?

而且我们往往以一种顽强的开拓方式行事。

And we tend to operate in scrappy pioneering ways.

所以我们进入新手模式，但我觉得你说得对，我们不能只是表现出一无所知。

So we go into this rookie mode, but I think to your point it's important that we don't just project cluelessness.

我们不会走进办公室说：嘿，我完全不知道自己在做什么，但你们把这件事交给了我。

Like we don't walk into the office like, hey, I have no idea what I'm doing, but you've entrusted me with this.

我认为，当我们处于这种新手模式时，尤其是当我们是经验丰富的专业人士时，应该展现出一个聪明的学习者形象。

I think it's important when we're in these rookie modes, particularly when we are experienced professionals, that we project an intelligent learner.

这和说‘我是新手，我什么都不懂’是不一样的。

Which is different than hey, I'm a rookie, I'm clueless.

这是一种带着高度自信但情境信心不足的态度来对待我们的工作。

It's it's coming at our work with this combination of high self confidence, but low situational confidence.

你正在收听与莉兹·韦斯曼的对话。

You're listening to a conversation with Liz Wiseman.

她是一位教师、顾问和研究员，Wiseman集团的总裁，也是《为何学习胜过已知：工作新游戏中的制胜之道》一书的作者。

She is a teacher, advisor, and researcher, president of the Wiseman Group, and author of the book, Why Learning Beats Knowing in the New Game of Work.

我和我妻子刚注册了HelloFresh，它彻底改变了我们家的饮食方式。

My wife and I just signed up for HelloFresh and it has changed the way we eat in our house.

让我告诉你们我们刚开始时发生了什么。

Let me tell you what happened when we got started.

一个装着几顿饭所需所有食材的盒子送到了我家门口。

This box got delivered to my front door with all the ingredients for several meals.

我只需要选一道菜，然后开始做就行了。

All I did was pick a meal and get started.

我选了辣味西南风味鸡肉，配彩椒和菲达奶酪碎。

I picked sizzling southwestern chicken with bell peppers and feta crumble.

听起来可能有点吓人，但食谱卡片非常容易遵循。

Now that may sound daunting, but the recipe card was easy to follow.

我切了一些新鲜漂亮的蔬菜，烤了鸡肉，切了香草，把所有材料组合在一起，三十分钟后，我就做出了一顿美味的餐厅级餐点，全家人都很喜欢，每顿饭大约只花了10美元。

I chopped some beautiful fresh produce, roasted the chicken, chopped the herbs, put it all together, and thirty minutes later I had a delicious restaurant quality meal everyone loved, all for about $10 a meal.

还有一件事你需要知道：HelloFresh 让一切都变得简单便捷。

And here's something you should know: HelloFresh makes everything simple and convenient.

你可以选择配送日期，所有食材都已预先称量好，并且有三种计划可选：经典版、素食版或家庭版。

You choose the delivery date, all the ingredients come pre measured, and there are three plans to choose from: the classic, vegetarian, or family plan.

这些餐食品质高、营养丰富，味道绝佳。

These are really high quality nutritious meals that taste amazing.

你一定要试试 HelloFresh。

You have got to try HelloFresh.

它会改变你的饮食方式，而且首周立减30美元。

It'll change the way you eat and you get $30 off your first week.

只需访问 hellofresh.com，使用促销码 something 30。

Just go to hellofresh.com and use the promo code something 30.

就是 hellofresh.com，促销码 something 30，首周立减30美元。

That's hellofresh.com promo code something 30 for $30 off your first week.

所以丽兹，当你刚入门、还是新手时，和你一起工作的人知道你是新手，你还会面临一个问题：人们觉得你不懂行，认为你应该坐下来闭嘴，好好听、好好看，因为我们是专家，看你该怎么学。

So Liz, also when you're a rookie, when you're a novice at something and the people that you're working with know you're a rookie, you also have that problem of people thinking that you don't know what you're talking about and then that you should sit down and shut up and listen and watch because, we're the pros and watch how we do it.

所以你还要应对各种性格。

And so you're dealing you're dealing with personalities too.

当然。

Sure.

尤其是在你职业生涯的早期，人们期望你扮演这样的角色。

And particularly early on in your career, you're expected to play that kind of a role.

但当我们展现出一个聪明学习者的状态时，也许有些人会说，你知道吗，坐下，闭嘴，好好听专业人士讲。

But when we are projecting this state of intelligent learner, usually, I mean maybe there are some personalities that say, you know what, sit down, shut up and listen to the prose.

但我的经历并没有太多这样的情况。

That hasn't been my experience as much.

通常，当一个人是个聪明的学习者，尤其是积极主动的聪明学习者时，人们的指导本能就会被激发，我们往往愿意帮助这样的人，并希望他们成功。

Usually when someone is an intelligent learner, an aggressive intelligent learner, people's mentoring gene gets activated, and we tend to want to help those people, and we want to see them successful.

我敢打赌，很多都是你内心那种自我对话在作祟，告诉你别人觉得你是个傻瓜，你应该闭嘴，但也许他们根本没这么想。

I bet I bet it's a lot of it is that self talk going in your mind that's telling you that these people think you're an idiot and that you ought to shut up, but perhaps they're not really thinking that.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我觉得我们得先赢得‘傻瓜’的称号，你觉得呢？

I think we sort of have to earn idiot status, don't you?

在我的工作经历中，我确实发现，只要你人在场，人们通常都会默认你聪明能干，除非你主动证明自己不是。

Have certainly I found in my work life and experience is that people tend to assume that you're smart and capable if you're in the room unless you prove yourself otherwise.

因此，我认为在当前这个工作新形态、经济快速变化的时代，重要的是我们要在初级岗位上建立起成功记录。

And so I think what's important is that kind of in this new game of work, in this new economy where things are changing really, really fast, I think it's important that we develop a track record of success in rookie kinds of roles.

意思是，嘿，你知道吗，我被安排去做一份远超我能力范围的工作。

Meaning, hey, you know what, I got put into a job where I was a little under qualified for a big job.

但我成功弥合了这个差距，取得了成绩。

And I was able to close that gap and be successful.

我在这里做到了，那里也做到了，那边也做到了，这便赋予了我挑战新任务的资格。

And I did it here, I did it there, I did it over there, which then earned you the right to go take on those new challenges.

这甚至可能让你在五十岁时仍有资格做出职业转型。

It earned you the right maybe in your fifties to make career changes.

当你这么做时，肯定会犯错。

When you're doing this, you're going to make mistakes.

事实上，有一种错误被称为新手错误，我们都清楚那是什么。

In fact, there's a category of mistakes called rookie mistakes and we all know what those are.

当你犯了这些错误时，该怎么做才能避免倒退十步，让所有人都觉得，是吧，看吧，他们真是个新手，是个傻瓜。

What do you do when you make those so that you don't end up taking 10 steps backwards and now everybody thinks, yeah, see, they're a rookie, they're an idiot.

是的。

Yeah.

当我们处于新手状态时，确实会犯更多错误。

Well, when we are in rookie mode, we do make more mistakes.

而这正是我们往往表现良好的原因之一，因为我们失败得更频繁。

And that's part of the beauty of why we tend to perform well, because we do fail more often.

但不同的是，我们通常不会犯巨大的错误。

But what's different is we don't tend to make huge failures.

因为当我们处于新手状态时，我们常常认为新人首先会带来新点子，但事实上他们并没有带来什么新点子。

Because when we're in rookie mode, we often think of newcomers as, well first of all we think that newcomers bring fresh ideas and the truth is they don't really bring fresh ideas.

我们什么点子都没有，这反而促使我们去寻求指导并调动他人的专业知识。

We bring no ideas which causes us to seek out guidance and mobilize expertise of others.

但我们也常常认为，当我们处于新手状态时，会承担很大的风险。

But we also often think that when we're in rookie mode, we take big risks.

但当我查看这方面的数据时，发现我们在新手状态下其实并不是高风险承担者。

And actually when I looked at the data on this, we actually aren't big risk takers when we're in rookie mode.

我们是风险规避者。

We're risk mitigators.

我们不会做出那些大胆而冒险的飞跃。

We don't operate in these big bold leaps of faith.

我们实际上采取的是小步前进的方式。

We actually take baby steps.

在某种程度上，我们应对挑战的方式，就像你经常旅行一样。

We in some ways, we walk into our challenges the way that you, you could see I travel a fair bit.

你知道吗？就像你半夜从床上起来，进入一间全新的酒店房间，不知道哪个方向是哪里，必须找到洗手间时那样。

You know, the way that you walk through a hotel room when you're getting up out of bed in the middle of the night, you're in a brand new hotel room, you don't know which way is what and you have to get yourself to the bathroom.

你的双手伸向前方，寻找障碍物，小心翼翼地迈着小步，避免撞到任何东西。

Your hands are outstretched, you're like looking for obstacles, you're taking baby steps trying to not run into anything.

我们会犯更多的错误，但这些错误通常比较小。

And we do make more mistakes, but the mistakes tend to be smaller.

我们不断调整，就像在酒店房间里伸出手摸索障碍物一样。

And we're constantly calibrating almost like the way that in this hotel room your hands are outstretched looking for obstacles.

我们会尝试各种方法，并迫切希望调整自己的表现。

We're like we try things and we're desperate to calibrate our performance.

所以我们常常会问：‘刚才怎么样？’

And so we say things like, how was that?

我们做了什么？

What did we do?

我们对反馈和调整持非常开放的态度。

We're extremely open to feedback and adjustment.

而当我们对某件事有了经验后，往往过于自信，认为自己知道该怎么做，于是制定宏大的计划，却长时间不检查自己是否走在正确的方向上。

Whereas when we're experienced to something, we're often so convinced we know how to do it that we lay down plans, big plans, we often go for long stretches before checking to see if we're even headed in the right direction.

当你在某件事上还是新手，刚开始做新事情并逐步适应时，你会给自己多长时间来判断自己是否真的掌握了它，或者这并不适合你？

When you are a rookie at something and you start something new and you're working through this, at what point do you say, how much time do you give yourself before you say, you know, I'm really getting this or you know, this isn't for me?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我认为其中包含两个重要的观点。

I think there's two important ideas in it.

一个是当你处于这种状态时，该采取多大的行动规模。

One is when you're in this mode, how big of a bite to take on.

首先，要具备各种美德，我已尽力分享了一些。

First of all, come with all sorts of virtues, I've tried to share a few of that.

但在新手阶段，我们常常缺乏方向。

But in rookie mode we often lack direction.

我们可能会很快解决错误的问题。

We can end up solving the wrong problem really fast.

我的一位朋友是美国海军的舰长。

One of my friends is a captain in the U.

S.

S.

他是海军，他说：新人都是只有推力，没有方向。

Navy and he said, rookies, they're all thrust, no vector.

所以我们首先需要知道该往哪个方向走，这就是为什么如果你在领导或管理处于新人状态的人时，A：不要让他们长时间不确定自己是否做对了。

And so what we need is first of all, we need to know which direction to head, which is why it's really important if you're leading someone, managing someone who's in rookie mode, A, don't let them go too long without figuring out if they're doing it right.

B：确保他们获得明确的方向。

But B, make sure they get direction.

所以，如果我是新人，正在尝试某件事的第一次，我会在前期努力确保自己真正理解目标是什么。

So, like if I'm new, if I'm trying something for the very first time, I'm going to work upfront to make sure I really understand what the target is.

这算是部分A。

So that's like part A.

部分B是，不要在长时间后才去确认自己是否做对了。

Part B is you don't want to go too long before figuring out if you're doing it right.

实际上，我和我的研究团队做了一项小研究，探讨对于刚接触某件事的人，什么样的挑战规模最合适。

We actually did a little bit of, my research team and I did a little bit of study on this looking for what is the kind of optimal size challenge for someone who's new to something.

我们发现，应该给新人一个微小的挑战，而最好的微小挑战时长约为两周。

And we found that you you want to give someone a micro challenge and the best micro challenge is about a two week duration.

意思是，这里有一项工作任务。

Meaning here's a piece of work.

不要说：嘿，进来一下，你把我们的文件管理系统彻底重构一下吧？

Like don't say hey come in, why don't you revamp all of our file management system?

等你六个月后再来找我，看看你搞定了没有。

Like come see me in six months when you've got that done.

你绝不会想给新人这样的任务。

You'd never want to give a rookie that.

你也不会想接下这样的任务。

And you'd never want to take on an assignment like that.

你应该把它拆解一下，说：好吧，你看，这里有一个你能完成的小部分。

You'd want to parse that and say, okay, you know what, here's a bite that you can get done.

两周是一个很好的时间长度，能让新人有机会去应对挑战、深入思考，同时也能让你快速获得反馈，判断这个人是否走在正确的轨道上。

Two weeks is a great amount of time to give someone a chance to struggle with something and to wrestle with it, but also gives you quick feedback to know whether or not that person is on track.

你有没有研究过，任务偏离原方向的程度会不会有影响？

Did you do any looking at whether or not it matters like how far afield you go?

换句话说，如果你以前在行业A，那么转到行业B，或者一个完全不同的行业Z，哪个更好？还是说这其实并不重要？

In other words, if you used to be in industry A, is it better to go into industry B or something so different, industry Z, or does it not really matter?

是的，我们确实研究过这个问题，从多个角度分析后，答案其实是一个关键点。

Yeah, you know, we did look at this and I think the answer to this, coming at it from several different angles is a pivot of one.

我一位在谷歌共事的高管，曾就新人状态提出过这样的观察。

One of the executives I work with at Google, she made this observation about rookie mode.

她说，在我看来，当人们从事新奇、重要且具有挑战性的工作时，如果能带着一项自身优势，往往能发挥出最佳表现。

She said, it seems to me that people are going to perform at their best when they're doing something new, important, and hard if they can take one strength with them.

从招聘经理的角度来看，另一种体现‘一个关键点’的方式是：你可能会听到很多人说，‘我想做点不一样的事’，或者‘我想当个播客主播’。

The other way I would, I see kind of the answer being one is if you look at it from a hiring manager standpoint, you probably get a lot of people saying, hey, you know, I want to do something different or hey, I want to be a podcaster.

我知道你帮助很多人实现了这样的转型。

I know you help a lot of people do that.

我发现，人们更愿意支持那些迎接新挑战、承担新任务的人。

What I find is that people are willing to make bets on people who go into new challenges, new assignments.

我们希望看到人们取得成功。

We want to see people be successful.

但大多数招聘经理、投资者、赞助者或利益相关者实际上只愿意下一次注。

But most hiring managers or investors or sponsors or stakeholders are really only willing to make one bet.

意思是，如果我从事金融行业，又在非营利部门工作，其实我有热情想去做社交媒体营销，并转到营利性行业。

Meaning if I'm in finance and I work in the nonprofit sector and really I have this passion, I want to go do social media marketing and I want to transition into the for profit sector.

现在你已经和领导谈过了。

Now you've talked, you're talking to lead.

所以我会建议，带着一项优势，并一次只做一个转变。

So I would think in terms of take one strength with you and make one pivot at a time.

因为当人们处于需要转型的境地时，往往很难知道该往哪里去。

Because when people are in that position of needing to make a transition, it's hard to know where to go.

而你刚才给的建议让事情变得简单了一点。

And that advice you just gave makes it a little simpler.

它缩小了你的选择范围。

It narrows it down as to what your choices are.

如果你遵循这个建议，就不是说你可以做任何事情了。

If you follow that advice, it's not like you could do anything.

你应该做一些与你之前从事的工作有所关联的事情，而不是偏离太远，否则你会茫然无措，什么都不会。

You ought to do something that's somewhat related to what you've been doing and not go so far afield that because then then you're just flailing around and not not knowing anything.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，这也会降低整个新手群体的整体形象。

You know, and sort of bringing down the whole rookie state in general.

当我们试图彻底重塑自己时，往往会给自己带来负面声誉。

It's like we end up making a bad name for ourselves when we try to go with a complete reinvention.

我会追随我的热情，彻底重塑自己，而不是从我擅长的一件事出发，将其转向另一个方向。

I'm going to follow my passion and reinvent myself versus I'm gonna pivot from one thing I know how to do and point that in a different direction.

我会做出一系列战略性调整。

I'm gonna make a bunch of strategic pivots.

这是一个非常好的观点。

That's a that's a really good point.

所以，总结一下你的观点。

So sum up your message here.

总结一下一些事情。

Some some things up.

是的。

Yeah.

我可能会总结为：当我们刚接触某件事时，并不总是最聪明的。

I might sum it up with, we're not always at our most brilliant when we're new to something.

当然，也有理由支持多年的经验、练习和精通。

Of course, there's a case to be made for years of experience and practice and mastery.

而且在某些工作上，我会只希望有经验的人来担任。

And there are certain jobs where I would only, you know, want experienced people in that job.

但令人惊讶的是，在我们今天所做的大量工作中，当我们懂得最少的时候，反而表现得最好。

But surprisingly, in so much of the work we do today, we tend to be at our best when we know the very least.

对于任何被迫或希望尝试新事物的人来说，听到这一点很令人欣慰，因为确实有一个积极的一面：你可以利用自己的新手身份来获得优势。

Well, that's comforting to hear for for anybody who's either forced to or wants to try something new that, there is that that silver lining that you can use your rookiness to your advantage.

莉兹·怀斯曼一直是我的嘉宾。

Liz Wiseman has been my guest.

她是威斯曼集团的总裁，这是一家领导力研究与开发公司，也是《新手优势：为何在新的职场游戏中学习比知识更重要》一书的作者。

She is president of the Wiseman Group, a leadership research and development firm, and author of the book, Rookie Smarts, Why Learning Beats Knowing in the New Game of Work.

本集节目说明中提供了她在亚马逊上的书籍链接，您可以在任何收听本播客的平台找到这些说明。

There's a link to her book at Amazon in this episode's show notes, which you'll find wherever you listen to this podcast.

迈克，和你交谈真是太棒了。

Mike, it's so great talking to you.

是的。

Yeah.

你也是，莉兹。

You you too, Liz.

感谢你抽出时间。

I appreciate your time.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

好的。

Okay.

回头再聊。

Talk to you later.

再见。

Bye.

有长生不老泉吗？

Is there a fountain of youth?

如果我告诉你，只要你真心想做到，就能大大提高活到100岁甚至更久的几率，但你得做出一些改变，你会怎么想？

What if I told you that if you really wanted to, you could increase your chances of living to 100 and beyond, But you'd have to make some changes.

什么样的改变？

What kind of changes?

嗯，心内科医生约翰·戴博士。

Well, cardiologist Doctor.

他在中国的一个偏远村庄发现，那里的居民没有心脏病、糖尿病或肥胖病例，也很少使用延寿药物。

John Day has found a remote village in China where amongst the people who live there, there are no cases of heart disease, no cases of diabetes or obesity, and very little use of life extending medication.

在这个村庄，每100人中就有1人年龄达到100岁或以上，这在统计上是极其非凡的。

In this village, one out of every 100 people is 100 years old or older, which statistically is extraordinary.

在他的著作《长寿计划》中，戴医生研究了这些人长寿的原因。

In his book, The Longevity Plan, Doctor.

戴医生研究了是什么让这些人如此长寿。

Day took a look at what it is that makes these people live so long.

是他们的基因吗？

Is it their genes?

是水的问题吗？

Is it something in the water?

到底是什么原因呢？

What is it?

欢迎，戴医生。

Welcome, Doctor.

戴。

Day.

那么，首先你是怎么找到中国这个小村庄里的人的？

So first, how did you find these people in this little village in China?

我有一件事值得一提，那就是我能够流利地说中文，因此经常被邀请前往中国，代表我们的医学协会进行病例教学并在大型会议上发言。

One thing about me is I do speak fluent Chinese, and I'm frequently asked to go to China and represent our medical society and do teaching in cases and speak at the big meetings.

通过这些旅行，人们向我介绍了这个长寿村，它位于中国西南部的广西壮族自治区，靠近越南边境，那里的居民拥有异常长寿的生命。

And through these trips, the people introduced me to this Longevity village, is in the Guangxi province in Southwest China near the Vietnam border where these people live these remarkably long lives.

事实上，这个地方拥有世界上已知比例最高的百岁老人。

And in fact, it has the highest known percentage of centenarians in the world.

起初，我并不完全相信这样一个地方真的存在，但经过多次带家人前往，并由我们的研究团队进行基因研究和深入调查后，我确信那里确实有某种特殊之处，这也促成了《长寿计划》这本书的诞生。

And at first, I didn't quite believe that this place could exist, but after many trips took our family there, our research team did genetic studies, extensive research, I'm convinced there's something there and that's what led to the book, The Longevity Plan.

难道不正是因为这些人拥有良好的基因吗？

And couldn't it just be these people have good genes?

这正是我最初的假设：这是一个位于山区的小型社区。

So that was my initial, that was my initial hypothesis is that, look, there's this little mountainous community.

他们与中国的其他地区隔绝。

They're cut off from the rest of China.

他们与世界其他地方也隔绝。

They're cut off from the rest of the world.

他们一定拥有超凡的基因，而且一直在近亲繁殖，因此能够违背正常的衰老和慢性疾病规律。

They must have some superhuman genes and they just keep inbreeding and they are able to defy the normal laws of aging and chronic diseases and all these others.

但我们的研究团队发现，我们对这些百岁老人进行了基因研究，结果发现他们的基因图谱与我们并无不同。

But what we found in our research team is we did genetic studies on all of these centenarians and, you know, genetic profile is no different than ours.

许多百岁老人携带的基因本应预测他们患癌症、心血管疾病或早逝，但他们却打破了这些预测，这归根结底是表观遗传学的作用。

Many of these centenarians have genes that would have predicted cancer, cardiovascular disease, early death, but yet they've come to defy that and really it comes down to epigenetics.

他们和我们没什么两样。

They're just like us.

我们每个人都有好基因。

We all have good genes.

我们每个人也都有坏基因，但我们的选择、生活方式以及所处的环境，在很大程度上决定了哪些基因被激活，哪些基因被抑制。

We all have bad genes, but the decisions that we make, the lifestyle we live, what goes on around us determines to a large extent which genes get turned on and which genes get turned off.

所以，他们的生活方式就是我们所说的健康生活方式吗？

And so is the way they live their life what we would call a quote healthy lifestyle?

就是那些我们常听到的：吃得好、多运动、睡得好、有朋友？

Is it just, the things we've all heard about eat right, exercise, get your sleep, and, have friends?

你知道吗，你提到了其中许多关键要素，是的，这些都很重要。

You know, you've hit on many of the key elements to that, and yes, they're all important.

我们曾试图分析，是不是空气或水里有什么特别的东西，但最终还是不断回到这些基本点上。

We tried to analyze it, you know, was it something in the air, something in the water, something else, but it really just kept coming back to the basics.

吃真实的食物，保持身体活动，多到户外去，与他人保持联系，接纳压力，优化睡眠，与生活的节奏和谐共处。

Eating real food, being physically active, being outside, being connected with others, embracing your stress, optimizing your sleep, living in harmony with the rhythms of life.

这并不难，但却非常深刻，能带来显著的健康效益。

And it's not that hard, but yet it's very profound and the health effects that it can have.

当我把这些原则应用到我在盐湖城的临床实践中时，那些原本需要药物或手术治疗的患者，很多竟然在不依赖药物或手术的情况下，成功让心脏病进入缓解状态，仅仅依靠这些基本原则。

And these same principles, when I applied them to my own practice here in Salt Lake City, people that previously I would have treated with medications or procedures, that remarkably many of these people were able to put their heart disease into remission without drugs or without procedures, just following these basic principles.

那么，这些基本准则具体包括哪些呢？

And so what are some of those basic principles?

我们总结出了七个关键特征。

So, we identified seven key features.

第一个是吃真实的食物。

The first being eating real food.

简而言之，他们吃的是天然食物。

In a nutshell, they eat real.

他们不吃任何加工食品或添加糖。

They didn't have any processed foods, added sugar.

直到最近，他们甚至不用任何食用油。

They didn't even have any cooking oil until just recently.

基本上，他们吃很多野生水果、野生蔬菜，还有从河里捕捞的富含Omega-3的小型油性鱼类。

Basically, ate a lot of wild fruits, wild vegetables, these small oily fish high in omega-3s that they pulled out of the river.

但所有这些食物都是天然的。

But it was all real.

在春节期间，他们可能会吃掉整头猪。

Around the time of Chinese New Year, they might eat the entire pig.

但平时，蔬菜是他们早餐、午餐和晚餐的一部分。

But otherwise, vegetables was part of their breakfast, their lunch, their dinner.

这对他们来说是一种生活方式。

It was a way of life for them.

我们谈到了他们的体力活动。

We talked about their physical activity.

他们彼此联系非常紧密。

They were very connected.

这个村庄里没有人感到孤独。

There was no loneliness here in this village.

这些百岁老人大多生活在四代或五代同堂的家中。

Most of these centenarians lived in four or five generation homes.

当各代人以积极的方式紧密相连时，会发生令人惊叹的奇妙效果。

So just the amazing magic that can happen when you tie the generations together in a positive way.

他们的生活遵循着昼夜节律。

They lived in accordance with their circadian rhythms.

他们周围的环境有利于健康，而且每个人都拥有强烈的目标感或人生意义。

The environment around them was one conducive to health, and they all had a strong sense of purpose or life purpose.

遵循昼夜节律生活意味着什么？

What does it mean to live in accordance with your circadian rhythms?

我想你之前提到过一件事。

Is one of the things I think you said.

这具体是什么意思？

What does that mean exactly?

这很棒，对于你的听众来说，尤其是那些读过很多健康与养生书籍的人，这一点很少被提及。

That's great and that's something that a lot of people for those of your listeners who may have read a lot of health and wellness related books, this isn't something that's talked about frequently.

作为一名心脏病专家，我专攻节律。

And as a cardiologist, I specialize in rhythms.

帮助人们保持心脏的节律。

So helping people to keep their hearts in rhythm.

他们生活方式的这种特点让我感到非常震撼。

And it's something that really was quite striking to me as the way they lived their lives.

例如，早上他们会随着日出起床。

For example, in the morning they would get up with the sun.

他们会到户外去。

They would be outside.

他们白天会获得充足的自然阳光。

They would get plenty of that natural sunlight during the day.

晚上他们没有人工照明、屏幕时间，也没有这些其他会以某种方式激活大脑、使其无法放松或自然感到疲倦、无法产生天然褪黑素的东西。

At night they didn't have artificial lights, screen time, all these other things that activated their brains in a way that never allowed them to unwind or to feel tired naturally, to have that natural melatonin release.

他们的用餐时间并不是根据工作安排或旅行等因素随意变动，而是固定在特定时间。

Their meals were not at crazy times each day depending on work assignments or travel or that, but rather they ate at a set time.

有趣的是，有大量的科学文献支持这些自然节律的存在。

And the interesting thing is there's a wealth of scientific literature that supports these natural rhythms that happen.

例如，即使是像夏令时这样简单的事情，也可能增加心脏病发作的风险，具体取决于你参考的是哪项研究。

For example, people who, even something as simple as daylight savings time can increase your risk of a heart attack depending on which study you look at.

在一周内，风险会增加百分之二十到四十，而这仅仅是少睡了一个小时。

Twenty to forty percent for one week, and that's just compromising on one hour of sleep.

但即使只是睡得不好一晚，也可能激活多达七到十一个不同的基因。

But even a bad night of sleep can activate up to seven eleven different genes.

因此，这些简单的事情，比如规律进食，有助于维持健康体重。

So these simple things, eating in regular times helps to be conducive to maintaining a healthy weight.

因此，他们的生活、节奏和季节中蕴含了太多东西，让我们深信这些因素正是他们健康与长寿的原因。

And so there was so much about their lives and in rhythms and seasons, that really convinced us that there was something there that accounted for their health and longevity.

你不觉得人们普遍知道应该过更健康的生活，这意味着要吃更好的食物、在该睡觉的时候睡觉，而不是熬夜之类的吗？

Don't you think people have a general sense that they should lead a healthier life and that that means eating better food and sleeping when they should sleep and not staying up all night and all that?

而且他们确实知道这一点。

And and but they they know it.

他们只是选择不去做。

They just choose not to do it.

你提到了一个很好的观点。

You bring up a great point.

一方面，比如在饮食方面，关于什么是健康、什么不健康的信息太多了，如果你相信超市里那些健康标签，最终可能会吃进大量加工食品，这对健康并不好。

On one hand, for example with food, there's so much misinformation about what is healthy and what's not, and if you believe these healthy labels that you read at the grocery store, you're going to end up eating a lot of processed crap, which is not good for health.

所以，我们很多人都觉得自己知道，很多人确实知道，但问题在于执行。

So a lot of us feel like we may know it and many people do, but it's on the execution.

而在这个村庄里，他们最大的优势就在于他们有着强烈的生活目标，这种目标驱使他们为家庭提供支持，这具有很强的激励作用。

And that's really where in this village that they have this huge advantage is that they had this strong sense of purpose that was driving them to provide for their family which can be very motivational.

但可能比任何其他因素都更重要的是，他们生活在一个环境中，没有人会带来放了很久的甜甜圈、剩下来的万圣节糖果或其他类似的东西。

But probably more important than anything is they lived in an environment where people weren't bringing in stale donuts or leftover Halloween candy or whatever else.

你知道，他们在童子军活动、教堂、学校或足球比赛后，都不会给孩子们大量摄入糖分，相反，整个环境都在支持健康，因此，没有这些诱惑，健康的选择、健康的生活方式就成了最省力的道路。

You know, they weren't pumping their kids full of sugar at their scouting events or church or school or after soccer games, but rather the entire environment was one that supported health, and so without that temptation, healthy choices, healthy lifestyles, it was the path of least resistance.

但正如我所说，人们对此是有感知的。

But as I say, people have a sense of this.

他们明白应该多在蔬果区逛，而不是在冰淇淋区流连，但人们还是做出了他们自己的选择。

They understand that they should be spending more time in the produce section and not in the ice cream section at the supermarket, but but people make the choices they make.

你认为人们不知道这一点吗？

They're not do you think that people don't know this?

他们是无知呢，还是明明知道却选择相反的做法？

That that they're ignorant or that they just know it and choose otherwise?

我认为两者都对。

I think both are true.

例如，在我的实践中，我看到很多人根本不懂什么是健康饮食，甚至有些人觉得只要去健身房，就可以万事大吉，可以一整天十五个小时都坐在办公隔间里，却没意识到日常活动的重要性，或者人工光线和自然阳光的区别。

For example, I see many people in my practice that really have no understanding of what it means to eat healthy or even some people that feel that as long as they go to the gym, they're okay and they can, you know, sit down for fifteen hours a day in their cubicle or whatever, not realizing that motion through the day is important or artificial light and natural sunlight.