Lady Gaga - Abracadabra

你正在收听《歌曲解剖》，音乐人会拆解自己的作品，逐层讲述歌曲背后的创作故事。

You're listening to song exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made.

我是里希克什·希拉瓦。

I'm Rishikesh Hirway.

接下来几周我将开启巡演，所有场次信息请访问 songexploder.net/live。

I'm gonna be on tour for the next few weeks, and all the dates are at songexploder.net/live.

在每天最后一缕阳光下，我会带着完整乐队演奏新专辑的歌曲，还会在每个城市邀请一位特别嘉宾担任主持人，和我一起聊聊这张专辑的创作过程。

I'm gonna be playing songs from my new album in the last hour of light with a full band, and I'm gonna be talking about the making of my album with a special guest moderator in each city.

这次我不是提问的人，而是被采访的对象。

I get to be the interviewee instead of the interviewer.

我将与杰森·曼索卡斯、萨明·纳斯特、艾莉森·拉塞尔、约书亚·莫利纳、肯·詹宁斯、约翰·罗德里克、闵真莉和亚当·斯科特同台交流。

So I'm gonna be joined by Jason Mansoukas, Samin Nasrat, Alison Russell, Joshua Molina, Ken Jennings and John Roderick, Min Jin Lee, and Adam Scott.

这张专辑非常私人化，希望你能来现场感受一下。

It's a really personal album, and I hope you can make it out to one of the shows.

更多票务和详情请访问 songexploder.net/live。

You can get tickets and more info at songexploder.net/live.

Lady Gaga 是来自纽约的歌手、词曲作者、制作人和演员。

Lady Gaga is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actress from New York.

她是全球最顶尖的艺人之一。

She's one of the biggest artists in the world.

她拿过14座格莱美奖、两座金球奖，还有一座奥斯卡奖。

She's also won 14 Grammys, two Golden Globes, and an Oscar.

今年三月，她推出了第六张专辑《Mayhem》。

And in March 2025, she released her sixth album, Mayhem.

在这期节目中，我跟她聊了专辑里的一首歌，叫《Abracadabra》。

For this episode, I talked to her about a song from that album called Abracadabra.

这首歌她和安德鲁·瓦特、Cirkut 一起创作和制作，是在里克·鲁宾的录音室 Shangri La 录制的。

She co wrote it and co produced it with Andrew Watt and Cirkut, and they recorded it in Rick Rubin's studio, Shangri La.

我们这期节目的访谈，也是在那里录的，正好是播客的第300期。

That's also where we recorded the interview for this episode, which happens to be the three hundredth episode of the podcast.

下面请听。

Here it is.

我叫Lady Gaga。

My name is Lady Gaga.

在深入这首歌之前，我想问问，你制作这张专辑的时候，有没有一些整体上的想法或者目标？

Before we get into the specifics of the song itself, I was wondering if as you were going into making this album, if there were any big picture ideas that you were thinking about or aiming for.

说实话，我重新找回了早年在下东区刚开始做音乐时的那种风格，这让我特别兴奋。

Well, I will say that returning to my earlier sound, what I discovered kind of on the Lower East Side when I was first making music, that was something that I was excited about.

是什么促使你这么想呢？

What was behind that?

是什么让你想回到过去的那段时光？

What made you wanna go back to your earlier days?

我从小就用音乐表达内心的阴暗，这一直伴随着我，真的挺可怕的。

You know, I I expressed the darkness I felt as a young person through music, like my whole life, and it was scary.

那种感觉在我周围持续了很长时间。

And I felt that around me for a really long time.

所以我的早期作品都比较暗黑，融合了现场乐器和电子音乐。

So my earliest records were kinda dark and they embodied live instrumentation with electronic music.

但随着时间推移，我在艺术上不断探索新的音乐方向，也在不断发现新的自己。

But over time, I just artistically was going in lots of new musical directions exploring myself.

后来音乐变成了一门生意，而这根本不是我做音乐的初衷。

And then music became a business, which was not why I did this.

所以当我决定制作这张专辑时，我只是想找回那个真正属于我的东西。

So when I decided to make this album, I think I was just wanting to reclaim something that made me me.

我的伴侣迈克尔跟我说：你已经不再需要害怕自己的阴暗面了，因为你已经真正掌控了它。

And my partner, Michael, was like, you know, you don't have to be afraid of your darkness anymore because you've really gotten a handle on it.

回到那里没什么大不了的。

Like, it's okay to go back there.

对我来说，关键是怎么找回真正的自己？

So it was important to me, how do I get myself back?

我该怎么把那些深植于音乐中的哥特式幻想变成现实？

How can I make all of these dreams, these like gothic fantasies that I have in music?

怎么让它们成真，又不至于把自己毁掉？

How can I make them real but that I don't have to wreck myself?

我觉得，相信自己能做出一张黑暗风格的专辑，而且不会被它压垮，这一点特别关键。

I think trusting myself that I could make a dark album and that I would be okay was a big piece of it.

咱们聊聊这首歌诞生的那天吧。

Let's go to the day that the song started.

你还记得那天是怎么开始的吗？

Do you remember how that day began?

那天我和安德鲁·沃特、西尔库特本来在录另一首歌，最后没放进专辑里。

Me and Andrew Watt and Cirkut, we were actually working on another song that didn't end up on the album.

那首歌节奏比较中等。

It was a like a mid tempo thing.

后来西尔库特说，我有个东西一直没给你听。

But then Cirkut was like, I've got something I've been working on.

我想放给你听听。

I wanted to play it for you.

我立刻就凑过去听了。

And I went up right away.

我当时就说，这是什么？

I was like, what is that?

这也太疯狂了。

That is crazy.

我们立刻停下了手头所有的事。

And we just stopped everything that we were doing.

安德鲁说，这个节奏太密集了，写歌可能很难押上去。

Andrew was like, that could be a hard beat to write over because it's so busy.

没错。

Yeah.

我就说，你看着吧。

And I was like, watch me.

这种电子乐的混乱感，那种锋利到极致的音效，真的深深打动了我。

Because that kind of electronic chaos, that kind of, like, razor sharp thing just speaks to my soul so deeply.

当你第一次听到这个节奏时，那种感觉该怎么形容？

How would you articulate the feeling that you had when you first heard this beat?

那种感觉就是心跳快到极致，肾上腺素飙升，充满激动和刺激，还有一股自由感。

It's a feeling of your heart racing as fast as possible, some adrenaline, excitement, deep thrill, and freedom.

它让我想起二十岁出头时，一个人晚上出门的那种感觉。

It almost reminded me of how I used to feel when I went out at night alone in my early twenties.

那时候我啥都不用干，就只想去探索夜晚。

I would just like have nothing to do but discover the night.

今晚会听到什么音乐？

Like what music was I gonna hear?

会有什么DJ打碟？

What DJs were gonna be playing?

又会碰上哪些酷炫的音乐人？

Like what cool artists was I gonna run into?

真的特别怀旧。

It was really nostalgic.

但同时又很现代，我也很期待这个挑战，因为一听就知道他做的东西很特别，只是还需要打磨成一首完整的歌。

But it was still really modern, and I was also excited for the challenge because I could hear there was something special in what he had created, but that it also needed to become a fully formed song.

所以我直接开始写了。

So I just started writing.

我们一打开设备，我就上了麦克风。

We turned it on, and I just got on the mic.

就像即兴说唱？

Like freestyling?

对，没错。

Oh, yeah.

我很多音乐，尤其是录轨的时候，都是即兴发挥的。

A lot of my music, especially when we work to track, is freestyled.

整个过程挺快的，但那时候还没词儿。

And it happens pretty quickly, but it didn't have words yet.

就全是随便编的词儿。

It was just kind of made up words.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我和安德鲁进了这个房间，开始写副歌前的部分。

And then me and Andrew went into this room here, and we started to work on a pre chorus.

我们得根据这个节拍来构建和弦结构，因为得跟Cirkut那些无调性的贝斯线搭上。

And, you know, we had to build the chord structure to come out of that beat because it's gotta, like, match Cirkut's atonal bass lines.

得从那种不和谐和紧张感里自然地生长出来。

It has to grow out of that dissonance and that tension.

那什么才能让这段音乐打开呢？

Like, what is gonna make it open?

因为这个节拍本身有点封闭感。

Because that beat in a way is kinda closed.

对。

Yeah.

那到底要怎么让整首歌打开呢？

So what was gonna happen to open up the song?

不过我们是用钢琴和吉他做出来的。

But we did it at the piano and with the guitar.

它有一种哥特式的氛围。

It had this kinda Gothic quality to it.

你最先写下的词是什么？

What were the first words that you wrote?

就像一位穿红衣的女士在吟诵一首诗。

It was like a poem said by a lady in red.

你听见了自己生命最后的几句话。

You hear the last few words of your life.

像一位穿红衣的女士在吟诵一首诗。

Like a poem said by a lady in red.

你听见了自己生命最后的几句话。

You hear the last few words of your life.

我记得当时在想，参加派对时，有个人高高在上地宣布，我要决定你今晚怎么过。

I remember thinking of, like, being at a party and somebody kind of lording over the party saying, like, I'm gonna decide how your evening goes.

我要掌控一切。

I'm gonna control the whole thing.

我会决定你是否坠入爱河，或者糟糕到连家都回不去。

I will be in charge of whether or not you fall in love or you get too messed up to even make it home.

当你想到这个画面时，你更认同哪一边？

When you were thinking of that image, which side of that did you relate to more?

就是说，那个掌控派对的人，是你平时在派对上扮演的角色，还是你通常站在另一边，心里想着：接下来会发生什么？

Like, was that person who's kind of lording over the party, is that a figure that you usually are at a party, or are you usually the person on the other side being like, okay.

接下来会怎样？

What's gonna happen?

写这首歌的时候，我想象自己在派对上，被一个执意要让我度过人生最疯狂一夜的人围住。

When we were writing it, I was imagining I was at the party and I was being kind of beset upon by this figure that was inclined to torture me into having the night of my life.

你有没有过类似的经历，被别人安排好了整个晚上？

Is that an experience that you feel like you've had where you've been subject to someone else's setup?

有。

Yes.

就像Lady Gaga式的安排。

Lady Gaga setup.

说实话，很长一段时间，我都得维持着这一面的自己。

You know, for a long time, keeping up with that side of myself.

你知道的，你永远都放不下那个舞台上的角色。

You know, like, you're never dropping your stage persona

对。

Yeah.

我们每个人都有一个对外展示的形象，如果你从来都不卸下它，而且这个形象还带着点锋芒，那东西太多终究不好。

And we all have, like, public a facing persona that and if you just never drop it and if it has an edge to it, you know, too much of anything is bad.

但有时候，我们的阴暗面恰恰会逼着我们成长，让我们变得更好，因为我们会学到很多。

But then sometimes our dark side, it like really challenges us and makes us great because we learn a lot.

我觉得《混乱》这首歌的一部分意义，就在于展现我身上这两种截然不同的人格。

I actually think part of what Mayhem is about is the duality of me being both of these people.

挺有意思的是，你一方面说这是折磨，另一方面又说是人生最棒的一夜。

It's interesting because you both refer to it as torture, but also the night of your life.

没错。

Yeah.

这些确实是我的一些困扰。

Well, those are some of my issues for sure.

但考虑到你为自己构建的这个世界，还有你创造出女神卡卡这个形象后，必须不断兑现它的承诺，这种严苛，我完全能理解为什么这两点都适用。

But I think in the context of the world that you'd constructed for yourself, the the rigor that you'd made for yourself by inventing Lady Gaga and then having to live up to that, I could see how both of those things would apply.

你知道吗，我从小就开始弹古典钢琴，遇到过很多严厉的老师，还学芭蕾，所有这些训练，我都得说，当你拼命努力的时候，自律里头确实带着一种煎熬。

Well, you know, as someone that played classical piano since I was really little and I had a lot of really strict teachers and went to ballet and, you know, all my disciplines, I will say that, like, there is a kind of suffering in discipline when you're working really hard.

我觉得我这一生在工作上，把这种状态推向了极致。

And I think I just took that to a really far degree in my work my whole life.

我渐渐成了那种在高压下反而更能发挥的人。

And I became kinda someone that thrived on intensity.

我觉得这首歌，确实在和这种高强度较劲。

I think that this song is definitely grappling with intensity.

这是一场考验，但又不完全由你说了算。

It's a test, but it's also kind of not up to you.

这大概就是我作为艺术家的真切感受。

I think that's a lot how I feel about being an artist.

我其实没觉得这是我自己完全选的路。

I don't really feel like I fully chose this.

如果我是一棵树，那就像是有人一把抓住树干，直接说：你就在这儿长吧。

If I was a tree, it would be like someone just grabbed the trunk and just said, this is where you're gonna grow.

是的。

Yeah.

所以《Abracadabra》这段，是那个穿红衣服的女士在夜店对听众施的咒语。

So the Abracadabra piece, it's a spell that this lady in red is casting on the listener on the nightclub.

而那段预副歌，就像一种仪式。

And that pre chorus, it's a ritual.

就像是：我要念一首诗给你听，咱们来办个仪式，看看你有多能扛。

It's like, I'm gonna read you this poem, and we're going to have a ceremony, and we're gonna see how tough you are.

我们写好了一段和弦进行，然后交给Cirkut，让他放进曲子里，引出副歌部分。

So we had written a chord progression that we then gave to Cirkut to put into the track to open up into a chorus.

然后我就开始不停地念：Abracadabra。

And I started just going Abracadabra.

一开始我一直在不停地念‘Abracadabra’。

And I was saying Abracadabra over and over again at first.

但我特别兴奋于自己编词，反正这是个咒语，怎么念都行。

But I was so excited about making up my own words that it could be anything because it was this spell.

这个咒语到底该是什么样子呢？

Like, what would this spell even be?

但我知道，死亡和爱，必须是那个穿红衣的女人对全场人说的核心。

But I knew that death and love was something that I wanted to be, like, at the helm of what this lady in red was saying to the room.

于是我开始琢磨拉丁语和意大利语，想想哪些词有哥特式浪漫的感觉，比如法语里的‘死亡’。

And so I started thinking about Latin and Italian and what would be, like, the Gothic romance words, like in French is death.

我就让我们的工程师保罗去查一些词，结果他找到了‘Mortez’，死神的名字。

So then I was asking Paul, our engineer, to look up different words, and then he was like, Mortez, the god of death.

我们花了好几天，一个字一个字地打磨。

We spent a couple days carving out every single word.

但要真觉得歌词对了，我得听到配上所有和声之后的效果。

But in order for me to really know that it was lyrically right, I wanted to hear it with all the harmonies.

没有它，我根本听不出效果。

I couldn't hear it without it.

对。

Yeah.

因为这首歌的魔力和华丽感全在副歌那种夸张的氛围里，只有当它足够富丽堂皇时，我才能确定用词对不对。

Because the magic and the the glamor of the song is in how gaudy it is in the chorus, and I couldn't hear if it was the right words until it was fully opulent.

我与女神卡卡的对话，接下来继续。

My conversation with Lady Gaga continues after this.

写这首歌时，我心里深深藏着的，是纽约的某些东西。

What was so deeply, like, inside of me when I was writing is some of New York.

在纽约，舞厅文化的精神一直是我无比钦佩的，它贯穿了我整个艺术生涯，也深深影响着我，尤其是作为LGBTQ+群体一员，以及作为一个年轻人被接纳、被拥抱的经历。

In New York, the spirit of ballroom culture is something that I have always admired and has been deeply meaningful to me my whole life as an artist and the LGBTQ plus community and the way that I've been embraced as a human being and been accepted as a young person.

我终于找到了属于自己的群体。

I've, like, found my people.

我觉得这个咒语也在表达一种韧性——被坚韧的人所激励，面对生活中不断考验，依然能说：我准备好了。

And I think there is something about this spell that's also speaking to being a resilient person and being inspired by resilient people and what it means to be tested constantly in your life and to say, I'm up for the challenge.

我一定要做到。

I'm gonna do this.

所以当我们终于写到主歌部分时，整首歌变得非常有灵性，讲的是韧性。

So when we eventually got to the verses, it actually became very spiritual, and it became about resilience.

而且

And

于是这首歌不再只是关于一个完全黑暗的故事，而更像一首舞厅颂歌。

then it was less about this being, like, completely grim, the story, and more of a dance club anthem.

那

What

你写这些歌词时，脑海里想着什么？

were you imagining with those lyrics?

你要怎么做才能继续走下去，在奔向人生中所有美好事物的同时，还背着魔鬼？

It's what do you have to do to keep going, to get to the next phase as you're headed toward all the good in your life and the devil's on your back?

别回头。

Like, don't turn around.

那你是怎么处理这些歌词的演唱的？

Then what about the way you delivered those lines?

当时你心里在想些什么？

What were you thinking about for that?

从演唱角度来说，这首歌的演绎挺特别的。

Vocally, this song was it's an interesting performance.

我觉得我最想传达的是一种金属乐的庄重感，但用的是流行的方式。

I actually think that the thing that I was channeling the most was a kind of metal gravitas, but in a pop way.

所以我试着融合了一下，想象如果铁娘子乐队来唱这首歌会是什么样子。

So I was sort of trying to marry what I would imagine it would have sounded like if, you know, Iron Maiden was doing this song.

是的。

Yeah.

我能理解。

I can see that.

他们确实有一种不容置疑的气场。

They have, like, a a sense of authority.

没错。

Right.

权威这个词真贴切。

Authority is the right word.

然后我们把这种感觉融入了Cirkut的曲子，他又进一步强化了它。

And then we put that into Cirkut's track, and then he was building it even more.

我们其实试了三个不同的制作版本，最后定下来的是那种浩室风格。

We actually went through, like, three different versions of production, and we ultimately ended in, like, a house style.

我记得当我们决定这么做的时候，我特别感动，就觉得：对，就是这个感觉。

I remember being, like, emotional when we decided to do that because I was like, this is right.

因为对我来说，一切最终都回归到舞池。

Because everything for me always went back to the dance floor.

这简直是个完美的闭环。

So it was completely full circle.

那句歌词‘今夜将我拥入你的心怀，黑暗月光下的魔力’，其实是在说：有时候，我们的内心阴影也能成为朋友，因为我们太了解它们了。

And that lyric right after hold me in your heart tonight and the magic of the dark moonlight, like, that's sort of, like, acknowledging that sometimes our demons can be our friends because we know them so well.

我会一直陪着你，陪你度过这段日子。

Like, I'm gonna be there for you when you go through this.

我还想问问你关于这个音效的事。

I also wanted to ask you about this sound.

这个音效一直在变化，某种程度上，更像是声音设计。

It sort of twists and morphs, in some ways, it's almost more like sound design.

这是Cirkut做的。

Cirkut made that.

有一种声音，同时在上下起伏。

There's like an element that's descending and ascending at the same time.

对。

Yeah.

听起来就像俱乐部要炸了一样。

Sounds like the club's gonna explode.

我们当时特别开放，尝试了各种方法，让整体感觉更混乱一些。

We just were really open to trying different ways to making it feel chaotic.

这在我们做的每一件事里都起了关键作用。

That played a huge role in everything that we did.

总有什么声音在扭曲、变形，一点点累积张力，然后突然释放。

There was always something distorting in some way or bending, building the tension that would release.

事情越来越疯狂了。

It just started to get crazier and crazier.

到了桥段部分，我整个人都变了。

And by the bridge, when we got to the bridge, I became a completely different person.

我不是在想，哎，这儿要不要加点歌剧元素。

It wasn't like I was like, oh, I think we should do opera here.

就是突然间，我自然而然地唱出了那种风格。

Like, I just started singing that way.

结尾是一个巨大的高潮。

This ending is this huge crescendo.

虽然很多部分都是快速、直觉地完成的，但有没有哪一段是你觉得特别费劲、反复打磨才搞定的？

For all the stuff that was happening fast and intuitively, were there any parts of the song that felt like you really had to labor over it to get right?

我觉得是第二段歌词里的‘无路可退’。

I would say the second verse, the lyric, no return.

别在情绪上浪费时间。

Don't waste time on a feeling.

去投入你的热情。

Use your passion.

无路可退。

No return.

这首歌混音完之后，我把歌词改了，原本是‘别在情绪上浪费时间，去投入你的热情，该你了’。

I changed that lyric after the song was mixed because it was don't waste time on a feeling, use your passion, it's your turn.

我于是把所有人都叫到录音棚里，说：‘我们得改一下这段。’

And I, like, called everybody into the studio, and I was like, we have to change this.

这样不对。

This is wrong.

哪儿不对？

Why was it wrong?

因为‘该你了’这句话，我觉得是在重复歌曲已经表达过的意思。

Because it's your turn, I felt was signaling something that the song was kind of already saying.

我们知道我们正面临考验，而第二段副歌如果只是重复第一段的内容，没有新意，那就没意思了。

We knew we were up for the test, and you don't want a second verse that's like sort of revisiting the first verse and not going anywhere new.

但‘不回头’就不一样了。

But no return.

它让整首歌的分量更重了。

It was raising the stakes.

意思是你不能放弃。

Like, you can't give up.

而这首歌之前还没传达出这层意思。

And the song didn't have that in it yet.

还有一件事我一直觉得不对劲，就是‘尘土飞扬时，选择西区的路，看着它燃烧’这句。

And what was also bugging me for a while was choose the road on the West Side as the dust flies, watch it burn.

尘土飞扬时，选择西区的路，看着它燃烧。

Choose the road on the West Side as the dust flies, watch it burn.

因为那句歌词太重金属了。

Because it was such a metal lyric.

我就在想，这真的适合这首歌吗？

And I'm like, is this just wrong for what this song could be?

因为《Abracadabra》里有太多东西，根本不像会出现在电台或流媒体上的歌。

Because there's so much about Abracadabra that is just not what anyone would think of as what would be on the radio or streaming.

我的意思是，根本不是那种轻松好听的类型。

I mean, it's, like, not easy listening.

里面全是小众的梗，风格又炸又满。

It's got all these niche references, and it's so maximalist and loud.

所以在写歌的过程中，我一直在跟内心的评判作斗争。

And so during the songwriting process, I'm battling a lot of judgment, inner judgment.

我老是怀疑自己写的东西，可这本来就是我想表达的。

I'm judging myself for what I've created, but that was what it was supposed to be.

这首歌里每一样东西，都是最真实的我。

It has all of the pieces of something that is quintessentially me.

旋律的音程、自创的歌词、奇幻的创意，配上强烈的舞曲节拍和摇滚乐器，这种多元融合的风格，就是我对Lady Gaga的理解。

The intervals of the melody, the made up words, the fantastic idea mixed with these heavy dance beats, with rock instrumentation, like this blend of things is what Lady Gaga is to me.

这就像是你只有一次机会去设计一栋建筑，来展现真实的自己，而且你还特别希望别人能看懂。

It's almost like if you had one chance to architect a building to show who you are, but you were desperate for people to know.

对。

Yeah.

于是你干脆把尖塔、立柱、大理石、草坪，甚至一个湖全放上去，就因为你想说：我什么都是。

So you just, like, put gargoyles and columns and marble and grass and there's a lake, and it's just because you're just trying to say, I'm everything.

我就是这么多面的。

I'm all these things.

没错。

Yeah.

所以我一直在苛责自己。

So I was judging myself.

但后来在创作过程中，我慢慢接纳了真实的自己，也终于放下了心结。

And then I sort of accepted who I am through the process and became okay with it.

那天我意识到，自己一直深陷在一个长期回避、不敢正视的难题里。

What I found that day was an understanding of a challenge that I had been a part of for so long that I had been so afraid of acknowledging and knowing.

我终于给这一切起了个名字。

And I finally like put a name to it all.

这让我能真正承担起责任，不再让过去那些负面的东西操控我的生活。

It has helped me to take ownership over something that used to run my life in a negative way.

你知道吗，你其实是在塑造自己。

You know, it's like you create yourself.

我创造了Lady Gaga，但后来，别人会把你当成他们想象中的样子。

I made Lady Gaga, but then, like, people reflect back to you what they think.

他们对你有幻想，有期待，可那些根本不是我自己的。

They have maybe a fantasy of you or dreams for you that are not yours.

但我拿回了属于我的那些梦想。

But I took back the dreams that were mine.

我明白过来，我最大的梦想，就是做真实的自己，作为一个艺术家。

And what I realized is that the biggest dream that I had was being myself as an artist.

接下来，请完整欣赏Lady Gaga的《Abracadabra》。

And now here's Abracadabra by Lady Gaga in its entirety.

访问songexploder.net，了解更多内容，包括本集附带的一些注释。

Visit songexploder.net to learn more, including some footnotes that go with this episode.

你可以找到购买或收听《Abracadabra》的链接，还能观看这首歌曲的音乐视频。

You'll find links to buy or stream Abracadabra, and you can watch the music video.

本集由我、格雷格·伊利、玛丽·多兰和凯瑟琳·史密斯制作，制作协助由Tiger Biscuit提供。

This episode was produced by me, Greg Ealy, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit.

本集的封面设计由卡洛斯·勒尔马完成，节目主题曲和标志也是我创作的。

The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo.

特别感谢迪伦·马龙以及Shangri La的所有同仁。

Special thanks to Dylan Marron and all the folks at Shangri La.

《Song Exploder》是PRX旗下Radiotopia网络的成员之一，这是一个由独立创作者拥有、听众支持的播客联盟。

Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener supported, artist owned podcasts.

想了解更多我们的节目，请访问radiotopia.fm。

You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm.

如果你还想听我聊聊最近在听什么、看什么、想什么，可以订阅我的通讯，内容在Substack或者Song Exploder官网都能找到。

And if you'd like to hear more from me about what I'm listening to and watching and thinking about, you can subscribe to my newsletter, which you can find on Substack or on the Song Exploder website.

你也可以在songexploder.net/shirt上买一件Song Exploder的T恤。

You could also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/shirt.

我是里希克什·希拉亚。

I'm Rishikesh Hirway.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

Radiotopia。

Radiotopia.

由PRX出品。

From PRX.

如果你还不知道那个超棒的播客《Ear Hustle》——这是我们Radiotopia旗下讲述监狱日常生活的节目——一定要去听听。

If you don't already know about the amazing podcast Ear Hustle, our fellow Radiotopia show about the daily realities of prison life, check it out.

因为现在正陆续推出一些特别精彩的新故事。

Because right now, there are some amazing new stories coming out.

有一集叫《我最喜欢的颜色》，讲的是一对父女时隔二十六年重逢后的对话。

There's one called my favorite color, where we hear the conversation between a father and a daughter who haven't seen each other in twenty six years.

另一集里，我们认识了一个十三岁时在脸上纹了纹身的人，这件事彻底改变了他的一生。

In another, we meet a guy who at the age of 13 got a tattoo job on his face that would influence the rest of his life.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

他一点都不后悔。

No regrets.

这些才是《Ear Hustle》里真正会听到的故事。

These are the kinds of stories you hear on Ear Hustle.

真实得让人心颤。

They're raw.

深刻得让人沉默。

They're deep.

很多时候又特别好笑，正像伊拉·格拉斯说的，是‘毫不悲情’的。

They're often very funny, and they're what Ira Glass called decidedly untragic.

所以无论你在哪里听播客，都别忘了收听。

So listen wherever you get your podcasts.

另外，去看看他们的现场演出吧。

Also, check out their live show.

他们五月底会在东北地区有几场演出。

They have dates in the Northeast at the end of May.

更多详情请访问 earhustlesq.com/tour。

Details are at earhustlesq.com/tour.