第361集：攻、受与酷儿异性恋规范

这就是很多人的心态。

That's the mindset so many people have.

我当时想，仅仅因为有些人可能会感到不满，并不意味着作者不加标签就是不礼貌的。

I was like, just because some people might be annoyed doesn't mean it's bad etiquette for an author not to tag it.

然后我还对另一个帖子做出了回应，奇怪的是。

And then there was another response I had that of a different thread, weirdly.

我还说过，而这正是我们真正进入本集播客主题的地方。

I also said and this is where we really get into the theme of this particular episode of the podcast.

我们正要说到这儿。

We're we're we're getting here.

我们正要说到这儿。

We're getting here.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我说过，值得注意的是，上位/下位的动态本身并不像支配与服从那样具有明显的性意味。

I said, also worth noting is that the top slash bottom dynamic isn't inherently indicative of a sexual dynamic like, for example, Dom and Sub is.

是的。

Yeah.

至于支配与服从，我能理解为什么。

And Dom and Sub, I can understand why.

我更能理解为什么标记这一点很重要。

I can better understand why it would be important to tag that.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，谁是主导，谁是服从？

Like, who is who?

但我仍然认为这并不是必须的。

I still don't think it's required.

不。

No.

嗯，是的。

I yeah.

但我更能理解为什么有人会想要这样。

But I I can better understand why someone would want that.

我当时想，人们经常用“主动”和“被动”作为简略说法，是的。

And I was like, I think so often that people use topping and bottoming as a shorthand Yeah.

用来指代关系中谁是男性、谁是女性。

For who the man is versus who the woman is in the relationship.

因为那些坚持某个角色只能是被动方的人，通常认为这个角色更女性化。

Because people who are so insistent that this character can only be the bottom, that character is usually the more feminine character.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我当时说，当人们用这种方式作为简略说法时，这其实就是异性恋规范和恐同。

And so I said, I was like, you know, when people use that as a shorthand, that is just heteronormativity and homophobia.

真的吗？

Really?

嗯。

Yeah.

那个人说：我不是那种人。

And the person was like, I'm not those people.

如果你这么想的话，恕我直言，我觉得我们没必要继续这个话题了。

And if that's what you think, respectfully, I think there's no need to continue this discussion.

好的。

Okay.

再见。

Bye.

然后我说，我不是说你就是那种人，但内化的异性恋规范，真的挺讨厌的。

And then I said I said, I'm not saying you are those people, but internalized heteronormativity, like, is objectively a bitch.

对，没错。

Like Yeah.

这确实是事实。

That's that's just true.

嗯。

Yeah.

确实存在这样想的人，而我认为那些免费做这件事的作者没有义务为了迎合这些人而采用对他们最方便的标签方式。

And those people who think that way do certainly exist and I don't think that authors who again do this for free have any obligation to cater to those people by tagging in a way that is most convenient to them.

然后我还想说点别的，当时正想说，结果我的推文发不出去，一直发不了。

And then there was something else I was gonna say And then I was trying to say it and then my tweet wouldn't send and it kept not sending.

我说，我觉得他们把我屏蔽了。

I said, I think they've blocked me.

嗯。

Yeah.

现在我都想不起来刚才那件事是什么了。

And now I don't really remember what that other thing was.

但另外，这个人，当我点开他们的资料时，他们的简介第一行写着‘仅角色名’。

But also this person, when I clicked on their thing, their bio, first first thing in their bio says bottom name of character only.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是最重要的事。

That's the most important thing.

以这个来定义你的个性真是太疯狂了。

That is that is what a wild thing to base your personality on.

我甚至不知道这是哪个角色或哪个同人圈。

I don't even know what character or fandom this is.

根本不知道。

Don't even know.

但让我震惊的是，有些人会因为别人写了不符合他们偏好的情节而生气。

But it blows my mind that some people like, they will get mad if you write something with the dynamic that is not what they prefer.

或者他们会说：‘我本来很喜欢的，但这事没发生在我身上，因为我从不写色情内容。’

Or they'll be like, oh, I was enjoying I this doesn't happen to me because I don't write smut.

但我确实见过这种事情发生在别人身上。

But but like, I've I have seen it happen to other people.

我见过有人抱怨，说他们本来很喜欢这张图，结果你让错误的角色把器官放错了地方，就把一切毁了。

I've seen people complain about happening to them when people are like, oh, I was enjoying this pic so much and then you ruined it by making the wrong character put their dick in the wrong play.

就像

Like,

疯狂。

wild.

如果这让你这么困扰，干脆别看了，换一个吧。

If it bothers you that much, just stop reading and move on.

是的。

Yes.

你为什么要把这个问题变成大家的问题？

Why are you making that everyone else's problem?

所以我基本上是说，你看，如果你直接屏蔽任何不符合你偏好的攻受动态的小说，那肯定涉及某种程度的异性恋规范，不管你有没有意识到。

And so I basically said, like, look, if you outright blacklist any fic that doesn't follow your preferred top and bottom dynamic, there is definitely at least some heteronormativity involved, like whether you realize it or not.

我认为有两处情况可以对这一点做出例外。

I think exceptions, there are place two places where I think exceptions can be made for that.

当角色因为创伤或与性身份相关的界限而从设定上就不愿意扮演某一角色时。

It's when there are canon grounds for a character to not want to do one or the other stemming from, like, trauma or boundaries surrounding their sexual identity.

我觉得，如果那就是你的底线，那也没关系。

I think those like if if if that if that's your hard line then that's fine.

但如果你只是说，我不希望这个人把他的阴茎放进别人的屁股里，因为我只是觉得他太女性化了，不适合那样。

But if you're just like, I don't want this person to put their dick in somebody's ass because I just think they're too femme for that.

你在说什么啊？

Like, what are you talking about?

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

而且通常都是更女性化的角色，人们坚持要让他们当受。

So and it's just it it generally is the more feminine character who people insist upon being the bottom.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

让我们来剖析一下我们的异性恋规范。

Let's unpack our heteronormativity.

是的。

Yeah.

拜托。

Please.

我觉得这非常有趣，同时也令人难过，因为这种观念如此根深蒂固，就像你说的，我不介意支配与服从这种关系，因为在性关系中，往往确实存在某种这样的元素，对吧？

I think it is it is so interesting and also sad how pervasive that, because like you said, I don't mind the dom and sub thing because I think so often in sexual relationships, there is some element of that, right?

比如，总会有一方稍微多一点——哪怕只是1%——在掌控局面，quote unquote。

Like there, there is gonna be like, and it's not like it's the same every time, but there's gonna be one person who's like, maybe even just like 1% more like, quote unquote, in control of the situation.

当然，这并不意味着每次都是某一方更‘傻’之类的。

Again, not that it's like, oh, your dynamic is every time this person is, like, the dumber, whatever.

我觉得这本身没什么问题。

Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

而且我觉得，在性少数群体文化中，这确实是个重要话题。

And I think, like, obviously, in the kink community, that's a big thing.

而且这

And that's

我觉得尤其是在那种情况下，不是说这个人更主导、那个人更顺从。

like I think especially in in situations where it's like, it's not like, oh, this person is more dominant and this person is more submissive.

比如在一种明确谁是主导、谁是顺从的情况下，这确实更重要，因为这背后有更多含义。

Like, in a in a situation where it's like, this person is the dom and this person is the like, that's definitely more important to be identifying because there are further implications to that.

对。

Right.

因为，没错，这时你就涉及到恋物社群了，以及你对阅读、消费这类内容的界限在哪里。

Because, yeah, then you're getting into, like, kink and whether, what your boundaries are around, like, reading that or consuming that or whatever.

对。

Right.

所以，对我来说，这无所谓。

So, like, that to me is whatever.

但在酷儿空间里，人们会说：在我的酷儿关系中，我是下面的、我是上面的、我是 feminine 的、我是 masculine 的。

But in queer spaces, having the, like, oh, in my like queer relationship, I'm the bottom, I'm the top, I'm the femme, I'm the mask.

这让我感到难过，因为我总是听到酷儿人群抱怨：有个恐同的家伙走过来，对着我和我的女朋友说：‘你们俩谁说了算？’

Is sad to me because I feel like I always hear queer people complaining about like, oh, this like homophobic guy came up to me and my girlfriend on the street and was like, Oh, which one of you wears the pants?

哪个是男人？

Which one is the man?

他们因此感到被冒犯，这是合理的。

And they get rightfully offended.

是的。

Yeah.

但同样的这些人却在谈论：‘在我们的关系中，我是主导方，我是顺从方，我是 feminie，等等。’

But then you have the same people like talking about, Oh, I'm the top in our relationship or I'm the bottom or like, I'm the mascot and the femme, whatever.

这感觉只是让这种性别划分更加根深蒂固。

And it just feels like it's making that gender divide more pervasive.

对。

Right.

我觉得，和一个更 feminie 的人、或更 masc 的人、或任何你觉得准确描述对方的术语的人在一起，都没问题。

I think being in a more femme with a more masc person or with a butch person or with whatever terminology is you feel is accurate to a particular person.

这没问题。

That's fine.

但如果你本质上在强化这些刻板印象，没错。

But if you're going to inherently in enforce stereotypes Yeah.

因为这些人如何表现自己而对他们这样做。

Upon those people because of how they present themselves

对。

Right.

如果你说，比如，这是一个问题。

If you're saying that, like a problem.

我是女性化的一方，所以我总是会更顺从，或者总是扮演下面的角色。

Oh, I'm the femme, so, like, I'm always gonna be the more submissive one or the more, like, bottom one.

这才是问题所在。

That is when you have the problem.

或者，女性化的一方总是得接受。

Or, like, fem always has to receive.

女性化的一方不能是主动的那一方。

The fem can't the fem can't be fucking you.

谁？谁？

Who who?

为什么？

Why?

为什么？

Why?

为什么？

Why?

为什么？

Why?

我觉得在同人小说和粉丝文化领域中，这很有趣。

And I think it's interesting, in the realm of like fan fiction and fandom.

我刚刚又去看了这个人推特。

I just went back to this person's Twitter.

我不清楚这个人是如何认同自己的性别、性取向或浪漫身份的，我不知道。

It's unclear to me what how this person identifies gender or sexuality or romantic identity wise, I don't know.

如果你每年查看AO3上排名前100的配对，他们会做一份汇总。

If you look at the top 100 ships on AO3 every year, they do like a a roundup essentially.

我可以说，其中至少75%是MLM配对。

I would say at least 75% of them are MLM ships.

它们都是阿喀琉斯相关的配对。

They're Achillion ships.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这一点，总会有讨论，特别是关于萨菲克配对为何不太受欢迎。

And there's always discourse about this, about how sapphic ships in particular are just like not as popular.

是的。

Yeah.

这也说明了创作同人小说的主要消费者通常是女性。

And this also goes to the fact that the people who the largest consumer of fic tends to be women.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，女性选择阅读阿奇利昂同人而不是女同同人，有成千上万种原因。

And so, I mean, there are a billion reasons why a woman may choose to read Achillion fic over sapphic fic.

但我知道，AO3上排名前100的配对中，至少有70%到75%是阿奇利昂配对，而阅读同人的大部分人群是女性。

But I think knowing that, like, 70 per 75% of the top 100 ships on a o three are Achillion, and that a good majority of the people who read fic are women.

从统计学上讲，如果你在AO3上，你可能稍微……你知道的。

Statistically, now to be fair, if you're on a o three, you're probably a little, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

但从统计学上看，这些人大部分可能是异性恋女性。

But statistically, a lot of those people are gonna be straight women.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，如果你想想身处这些空间里的异性恋女性，她们对耶和华感兴趣。

And so if you think about being in these spaces and straight women who are interested in the Yahweh.

什么？

The what?

我几周前也解释过这一点。

I explained this a couple weeks ago too.

这是日语中类似Achillion的词。

It's the it's the Japanese word for like Achillion.

哦。

Oh.

别说了。

Like, stop.

嗯。

Yeah.

记住这一点。

Remember that.

说真的，我讲话的时候你从来都不听。

To be fair, you never listen when I'm talking.

是的，没错，这非常公平。

Yeah, no, that's super fair.

所以不，但我在我编辑的时候必须再听一遍。

So No, but I but I have to listen the second time around when I'm editing.

是啊，好吧，很好。

Yeah, well, good.

你总得在某个时候听一下。

You gotta listen at some point.

但你可以合理地得出结论，很多喜欢读这种同人小说的人是异性恋，甚至根本不是酷儿，他们只是异性恋女性。

But you you could reasonably conclude that a lot of people who are into reading this type of fic are straight and possibly not queer at all and they're just straight women.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这就像是，好吧，你实际上并不属于酷儿社群。

So then it's like, okay, you're not actually a part of the queer community.

你当然可以来玩。

You're welcome to hang out.

是的。

Yeah.

就像，这根本不是问题。

Like, that that's not a problem.

但你甚至不属于这个酷儿群体。

But you are not even a part of this queer community.

所以如果你说，哦，在我心目中这个角色永远得是下面那个，别把这当成个人偏好。

And so if you are saying, oh, this character always has to be a bottom in my mind, don't read that as personal preference.

你怎么能将这与异性恋规范区分开来呢？

Like, like, how how can you separate that from heteronormativity?

你怎么能将这与你将异性恋规范带入这个酷儿空间区分开来呢？

Like, how can you separate that from you bringing heteronormative ideals into this queer space?

嗯。

Yeah.

这并不是说酷儿人群就不会这么做，因为他们确实也会。

That's not to say that queer people don't also do this because they do.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为每个人都深受异性恋规范的影响。

Because everyone is infected with heteronormativity.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我觉得，尤其是当这种观点来自直女时，让我特别反感。

But I think it especially rubs me the wrong way when it is coming from straight women particularly.

嗯。

Yeah.

让我对这次与这个人的互动印象特别深刻的是，当我提到异性恋规范时，他们表现得非常防御。

And the thing that really stood out to me about this interaction with this person is how defensive they were when I brought up the heteronormativity bit.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为我觉得，你可以这样解读那条推文：这完全合理。

Because I think there's a way to read that tweet and say, that's totally fair.

我不觉得这适用于我，但这是合理的。

I don't think that applies to me, but that's fair.

但他们立刻变得防御起来。

But they were immediately back on their heels.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为这告诉我，那些认为这个角色只能被动接受的人，他们的思维方式是怎样的。

And I think that says to me something about the mindset of people who think, okay, this character can only take it up the ass.

我是说，我很抱歉。

Like, I'm like, I'm sorry.

这让我感到困惑。

Like, befuddles me.

我不明白，如果你不基于你对性别互动的先入之见，你怎么会认为这件事对这个角色如此根本。

I don't understand how you think this thing could be so fundamental to the character if it's not related to your preconceived notions of the the genders playing off of each other.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你之所以这么强烈地感觉，一定有原因。

I mean, there there has to be a reason that you feel so strongly.

那原因是什么？

And what is it?

那原因是什么？

And what is it?

是吗？

Is it?

我认为最常见的原因，你说得对，就是谁更男性化、谁更女性化，如果你在关系中喜欢这种角色定位——不是作为虚构角色，而是作为真实的你、作为性存在——你在关系中做出的选择。

And the most common reason I think you're right is who is more masculine and who is more feminine, which like, if that is something you like as a part, like not as fictional character, you as a person, as a sexual being are deciding in your relationships.

你知道，这是我喜欢主导或被动的偏好，不管怎样。

You know, this is my preference for topping or bottoming, whatever.

我恰好更男性化或女性化，或者说我是个女性化的女同性恋，恰好更喜欢男性化的女同性恋，等等。

And I happen to be more masculine or feminine, or like, I am a femme lesbian and I happen to prefer masc lesbians, whatever.

作为个人偏好，这没有任何问题。

That as a personal preference, there is no issue with that.

就像我之前说的，唉，这些分歧存在真让人感到难过。

Like when I said earlier, like, oh, it's sad that these like divides are there.

但我的意思并不是说，你不能有自己的个人偏好。

Like, I don't mean by that, like, you cannot have your own personal preferences.

嗯。

Yeah.

随便吧。

Whatever.

嗯。

Yeah.

我个人并不喜欢那种特别粗犷阳刚的男性，等等。

Like, I don't personally like super, like, macho masculine men, whatever.

这没什么问题。

That's like, it's fine.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道的吧？

You know?

人们可以喜欢任何东西。

People can prefer whatever.

但问题在于，当你因此强加给别人一种观念，比如‘这两个更女性化的在一起真奇怪’。

But the problem is when you're then imposing that on other people of like, oh, it's weird that these two, like, more feminine people are together.

或者‘这两个更男性化的在一起真奇怪’，或者‘我看着你们的关系，却搞不懂你们的互动模式，根据你们的性格，我分不清谁是谁’。

These more masculine people are together or, oh, I'm looking at your relationship and I can't figure out the dynamic of like, oh, by your personality, I can't figure out who is who.

这才是问题所在，因为你用的是什么标准呢？对吧。

That's the problem because what are what metrics are you using Right.

你凭什么判断这个？

To figure that out?

你是说，个子小的那个是戴假阳具的‘肌肉妈妈’吗？

Like, what do you mean the the smaller character is the one using the strap on the muscle mommy?

谁在乎啊？

Who cares?

谁在乎？

Who cares?

我觉得我很难表达清楚，但你明白我的意思，对吧？

And I think it's kind of hard for me to articulate but you understand what I'm saying, right?

嗯。

Yeah.

我想让你告诉我，这些角色身上有什么根本特质，让你看到不同的关系动态时如此反感？

I want you to explain to me what fundamental thing about these characters makes it so that you are so disgusted when you see a different dynamic.

我可以理解，也许你会觉得：‘哦，我原本根据角色设定，以为这段关系会是另一种模式。’

I can understand maybe being like, Oh, I was hoping that this would have this dynamic based off of the characterization.

哦，不管怎样得

Oh, whatever would have to

如果你心里觉得：‘哦，当我读这些角色时，我自然而然地假设，如果要有权力动态，那就应该是这样。’

If, like, if in your mind you're like, oh, when I read these characters, I just, like, assumed if there was going to be a dent dynamic, this is what it would be.

但我对这一点还是有疑问。

I still have questions about that.

你是凭什么这么假设的？

Like, what made you assume that?

我觉得这真是个值得思考和自我反思的有趣问题，或许能帮你剖析自己的偏见。

I think that's just, like, an interesting thing to think about and reflect on personally to maybe, like, pick apart your own biases.

而且在那些该死的同人小说里，这也是个有趣的角色设定。

And that can be an interesting character thing in the fucking fic too.

嗯。

Yeah.

喂，你好。

Like, hello.

但如果你对这件事有如此强烈的感受，然后告诉别人你的偏好，却拒绝接受任何其他形式，这对你所讨论的免费作品来说，是一种非常强烈的观点。

But to feel so strongly about it, to then tell people what your preference is and then refuse to engage with anything else like that is a really strong opinion to have about free media.

是的，我不会去消费这种极其小众的内容。

Yeah, I am not going to consume this type of extremely niche.

说实话，你是在主动寻找这些虚构作品。

Let's let's be honest, fiction, you are like searching stuff out.

你能为很多粉丝圈找到好的同人小说，真是幸运。

You are lucky to find good fan fiction for a lot of fandoms.

然后你会进一步缩小范围，因为你对此如此在意。

And then you're going to narrow it even further because you care that much.

为什么？

Why?

如果你不喜欢某样东西，不是简单地关闭标签页，而是会像我们一样，去Twitter上抱怨它。

And then if you don't like something instead of just closing the tab, you're gonna like what we And can read to them about like complain about it on Twitter.

我也忘了。

I also forgot.

她忘了。

She forgot.

它消失了。

It's gone.

她忘了。

She forgot.

我分心了，因为我把‘也’读得有点奇怪。

I got distracted because I pronounced also a little bit weird.

然后那个想法就从我脑子里消失了。

And then the thought left my brain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时想，我也……

I was like, I also.

我没注意到。

I didn't notice it.

我注意到了。

I did.

哦，还有另一件事，我说过我不知道那些推文去哪儿了，但有人 basically 告诉过那个人，不要……不要用那个词，我忘了怎么说？

Oh also another thing I said that I don't know where these tweets went but I was basically told this person not to be not to be what's the word I'm looking for?

不要太极端或露骨。

Too extreme or explicit.

但好吧。

But okay.

是这样的。

Here's the thing.

如果你要说你得标注谁在哪儿插入了阴茎，是吧。

If you're gonna say that you need to tag who's put in a dick where Yeah.

还有那里的动态关系。

And like the dynamics there.

如果一个人认为这个角色只能作为口交的接受方呢？

What if one person thinks that this character should only be on the receiving end of oral sex.

你需要标注这种动态关系吗？

Do you need do you need to tag that dynamic?

我的意思是，到这一步，你得把每个词都标上。

I mean, at this point, you need to just tag every word of the thing.

对。

Right.

所以对我来说，问题是，界限在哪里？

And so it's like for me for me, it's like, okay, well, where is the line?

好吧。

Okay.

如果这是必需的，那这个呢？

So if this is required, what about this?

这个呢？

What about this?

我们需要标记他们的发色吗？

Do we need to tag their hair color?

如果他们染了头发，哦不，我刚才还想象着这个人有一头金发。

If they dye their hair, Oh no, I was picturing this person with their blonde hair right now.

我不觉得。

I don't.

知道，确实需要。

Know, it does.

是的，我认为到了那个阶段，如果你对情节细节这么挑剔，那就干脆自己写吧。

Yeah, I think at that point, you're really getting to a point, like I said, where you just need to write it yourself if you're going to be that picky about the plot points.

嗯。

Yeah.

还有一个人回复了我的推文，我们进行了非常友好且完全正常的交流，他们基本上说，在我看来，标签越多越好。

And I another person responded to my tweet and was we had a very cordial and perfectly fine interaction where they just basically said, like, in my opinion, the more tags, the better.

公平。

Fair.

他们说，傻乎乎的标签也没关系。

They said, like, dumb tags are welcome.

因为这能给我更多关于修正的细节，但我不会浪费时间。

Like, it gives me more detail about the fix, but I don't waste my time.

这个人特别提到，我可能喜欢‘主导型底部’，但另一个标签说明他们有多刻薄，能帮我避开我不想读的小说。

Like, this person said specifically, like, I might like Dom Bottom, but another tag mentioning how mean they'll be helps me to avoid a fic I don't want to read.

这全都非常合理。

Like, that's all super fair.

他们说，我只是不特别喜欢标签很少或没有的情况，因为有时简介并没有很好地告诉我小说里发生了什么。

And so they were like, I just don't specifically enjoy little to no tags because sometimes the synopsis isn't doing a good job of telling me what's going on in the fic.

他们还说，不指责，但有时候那根本就不是简介，你知道的？

And they're like, no shaming, but like sometimes it's just it's not like a synopsis, you know?

嗯。

Yeah.

他们说，我们为这些作品投入了时间，看到标签可能有助于提升阅读体验。

And they said like, we invest time in these works, seeing the tags might be helpful just to make the experience better.

我当时说，我觉得这一切都完全合理。

And I was like, I think all of that is totally fair.

这非常有道理。

Like, that's super valid.

嗯。

Yeah.

我也认为过度标签化会有问题，因为它会让标签变得混乱。

I I also think that overtagging can be bad because it muddles the tags.

嗯。

Yeah.

比如，我以前参与过的某些同人圈就存在严重的标签过度使用问题，尤其是配对角色方面。

Like, I have been in fandoms before that have had some chronic overtagging problems, particularly with side ships.

他们会给每一个配对都打上标签，结果一篇小说会出现在某个配对的标签下，但其实根本不是主要讲这个配对的。顺便说一下，如果你想解决这个问题，只需加上“OTP: 真实”这个标签就行了。

Like they would tag every side ship and then a fic would show up in that ship's tag that is not primarily about to fix that, for additional tags, just put in OTP colon space true and it'll fix that, by the way.

这就是你的感谢，还有关于AO3的细节。

There's your Thank there's your details about AO3.

谢谢。

Thank you.

AO3的运作方式。

AO3 act.

但你确实可能会让标签变得杂乱，这挺烦人的。

But like it you can clog up the tags and that can be annoying.

不过，我能理解大家想要更多标签的心情。

But like, I I get wanting more tags.

但再说一遍，这并不意味着

But like, again, that doesn't make mean that are

必要或

necessary or

这并不意味着必须如此。

It doesn't mean that it's required.

不加标签并不算不礼貌。

It doesn't mean that it's bad etiquette not to tag it.

像这种东西是免费的。

Like, this shit is free.

某些事情可能让人烦，但你读的是免费小说。

Certain things may be annoying, but you're reading free novels.

像

Like

而且在付费小说中，他们也不会这样做。

also in paid novels, they're also not doing this.

是啊，他们不会做这种事。

Yeah, they don't do that shit.

像我觉得，标签这种事，正如我所说，我觉得有些东西是必需的。

Like to me, the like tagging, like I said, I think certain things are required.

我觉得粉丝圈里的CP预警之类的，对我来说就是基本阅读要求，因为这些信息就像传统小说会提供的那样。

I think fandom ships trigger warnings, whatever that to me is like, yeah, basic reading, because that's also information that like a traditional novel would provide.

没错。

Right.

对我来说，其他所有东西都只是额外的福利，是围绕同人小说形成的社区所带来的。

Everything else to me feels like just an incredible bonus that is just like comes with how the community has built around fan fiction.

当你读传统小说时，它们并不会给你这种信息。

Like, when you are reading a traditional novel, they are not giving you that kind of information.

说到这个，最近推出了一部耶和华书籍改编作品的预告片。

You know, speaking of which, a trailer recently came out for a adaptation of a Yahweh book.

那部作品将在加拿大的Crave平台播出。

That's gonna be on Crave in Canada.

我这么说是因为，不是吹牛，但我知道Crave是什么，因为我工作的原因。

And just just saying that because like not to brag but like I know what crave is because like of my work.

对。

Right.

但这个预告片发布了，是冰球受好者题材。

But this trailer came out and it's hockey gaze.

的。

Of.

就是那种有点像敌对转相爱的冰球同性恋故事。

Like, sort of like kind of like enemies to lovers hockey gays.

对。

Yeah.

人们之所以对这种东西如此着迷，你知道吗，因为RPF——真实人物小说——一直都很受欢迎？

That's that people eat that shit up because you know what is has always been very popular in terms of like RPF, like real people fiction?

冰球运动员。

Hockey players.

而且

And

我的意思是，他们应该接吻。

I mean, they should be kissing.

他们应该接吻。

They should be kissing.

冰球运动员，天啊。

Hockey players, f one.

每次电视上播体育比赛，我都在盼着他们接吻。

Every time there's a sports on my TV, I am rooting for kissing.

没错。

Yep.

这可是我家里唯一听到的话。

That's all you hear in my house.

他们绝对会亲、亲、亲、亲个不停。

They absolutely Kiss kiss kiss kiss

亲亲亲亲，但我看了预告片，心想，哦，这看起来挺有意思的。

kiss kiss kiss But so I saw the trailer and I was like, oh, that looks interesting.

看起来挺不错的。

Like, that looks pretty good.

我不骗你。

I'm not gonna lie.

但我心想，读原著值得吗？

But I was like, I don't like, would it be worth reading the books?

我不确定。

Like, don't I don't know.

感觉不太好。

Don't feel good.

我有个朋友，看了预告片后，最终读了第一本书。

And I have a friend who, after seeing the trailer, ended up reading the first book.

所以我让他告诉我感觉怎么样。

And so I was like, let me know how it is.

我是真的很好奇。

Like, I'm I'm curious to know.

他们告诉我，说他们很早就开始交往了。

And they were like telling me and being like, oh, this like it was they started hooking up very early.

我当时想，哦，这挺有意思的。

And I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting.

他们还说，但后来有很多情感发展的部分，我真的挺喜欢的。

And they were like, but then like later, like there's a lot more relationship development that like I really liked.

所以我想，好吧，也许我可以试试看。

And so I was like, okay, like maybe I'll give it a try.

他们还说，但里面确实有很多情色内容。

And they were like, but there definitely is like, smut.

所以我问了我的朋友。

And so so so I asked my friend.

我就问：好吧，为了让我心里有数，这是M级情色还是E级情色？

I was like, okay, just so I can know, like, is it M smut or E smut?

她就说：‘哦，绝对是E级。’

And she was like, oh, it's definitely e.

我就说：‘好的，记下了。’

And I was like, okay, noted.

知道了。

Good to know.

但我确实得问一下别人。

But like, I had to ask someone that.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为这是一本小说

Because it it is a novel

而且它没有标注E级评分。

and it doesn't have a rating that says e.

这个我们以前讨论过。

Which we've talked about before.

我真的觉得，我之前在播客里也说过。

I really do think I mean, and I've said this before on the podcast.

我觉得这是个滑坡效应，因为那样一来，任何涉及同性恋的内容都会被标为E级，就会出现审查问题。

I think it's a slippery slope because then you start getting, like, anything that's gay is rated as e, and then you have censor censoring issues.

但我真的觉得，给书籍做分级会非常有帮助，因为青少年读物里确实有些内容很糟糕。

But I really do think ratings for books would be so helpful because there is shit in the young adult.

我们在电视和电影板块就有这样的分级。

We have them for TV and movies section.

青少年读物里确实有些内容让我觉得，这完全取决于你如何定义‘青少年’。

There is shit in the young adult section that I am like, that is what it really depends on what you think a young adult is.

没错。

Right.

定义一下什么是青少年。

Define young adult.

因为像这些内容，我觉得这根本不是，我明白未成年人会接触这些媒体，但我不认为它们应该被推广给未成年人。

Because if like some of this stuff I'm like that is not I understand that minors consume this media, but I don't think it should be marketed towards them.

如果他们遇到这种情况，可能会拿起来看。

They could pick it up if that's what happens to them.

对。

Right.

但我觉得，青少年小说，我通常理解为青少年。

But like and also I think young adult, I typically interpret that as like teenager.

嗯。

Yeah.

大概是18岁。

Probably 18.

嗯。

Yeah.

但那

But that

并不是那个区域里实际的内容

is not what is in that section

对，13岁和17岁之间有很大的区别。

right And there's a big difference between a 13 year old and a 17 year old.

是的。

Yes.

差别很大。

There's a big difference.

对。

Yeah.

但我想回溯一下，我们很久以前做过一期节目，讨论过书籍中色情内容的兴起，比如传统小说之类的。

But I think going back, we did an episode on this, like, forever ago now about, like, the rise of smut in books, like traditional novels and everything.

但闭门性爱场景，比如淡出处理，和直接的M或E级内容之间有着天壤之别。

But there's such a huge difference between, like, a closed door sex scene, like a fade to black.

对。

Right.

还有那种完全赤裸裸的M或E级内容。

And, like, a full on M or E like it.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，这

You know, this is

是一种音频媒介。

an audio medium.

他们看不到你刚才做的。

They can't see what you just did.

我做了，我把手指伸进了洞里。

I did the I put my finger in the hole.

但你知道，这正是我想说的。

But, you know, but that's what I'm saying.

粉丝小说在这方面是一种奢侈。

It's like fan fiction is such a luxury in that.

所以然后你开始吹毛求疵，说这还不够。

And so then to get all nitpicky and be like, it's not enough.

我的意思是，当然，越多越好。

Like, sure, more is great.

对。

Right.

但别说了。

But like, shut up.

这是免费的。

It's free.

而且我反复提到的一点是，

And it's not like that's another thing I keep coming back to is like,

谁把鸡巴插进哪个洞口根本不是触发点。

who sticks dick in which orifice is not a trigger.

而且你也说了，这完全不能反映关系的实质。

It is also just, you already said this, but not indicative at all of the dynamic.

对。

Right.

你听说过‘强势受’这个词吗？

Have you ever heard of a power bottom bitch?

这还真有个专门的术语。

There's literally a term for it.

有个专门的名字。

A name for it.

我不知道它的反面是什么。

I don't know what the opposite of that.

那什么叫做‘可怜的攻’？

What's like a sad top?

枕头公主型的攻。

Pillow princess top.

哦，枕头，枕头

Oh, pillow, pillow

不，这个公主真的很卖力。

no, this princess really works.

这有点难，因为公主的机制问题。

It's a little bit harder just because of A princess The mechanics.

上位者。

Top.

肯定有个说法。

There's gotta be something.

那是不是叫懒惰的上位者？

What's that like a lazy top?

石头型是不同的，因为那关乎的是你愿意给予但不愿接受，或者愿意触碰但不想被触碰这类情况，我觉得这有点不一样。

Well stone is different because that's about like whether you like I'll give but I won't receive or like I'll touch but don't want to be touched that kind of thing so I think that's a little bit different.

权力下位者的反面是什么？

What is the opposite of a power bottom?

我不知道。

I don't know.

软弱的上位者。

A weak top.

一个弱势的主导者。

A weak top.

但你也可能是个受方，同时你也可以是

But like you can also you can be a bottom and you can be

主导者。

dom.

主导，主导。

Dom doming.

你可以在下面主导。

You can dom from the bottom.

每个人。

Everyone.

听好了，因为每个人。

Listen because up everyone.

即使你处于下方，也不意味着你在身体上处于对方的下方。

Just because you're bottoming doesn't mean you're physically underneath the other person.

不是要讨论性姿势，但听我说。

Not not to get into sex positions but like But there's a listen.

有很多事情是可以做的。

There's a lot of things that can be done.

对。

Right.

而且我觉得，这又回到我之前说的，人们不理解上位、下位、主导、顺从、切换和双向之间的区别，因为切换是和上位、下位相关的，而双向则是和主导、顺从相关的。

And I think, again, this goes back to what I said about people people don't understand the difference between top and bottom and dom and sub and switching and versing because switching goes with top and bottom and verse goes with dom

和顺从。

and sub.

我觉得这归根结底是直人的问题，那些很正统的女性在看同性色情片。

And I think that goes back to being a straight person problem as you have these nice straight ladies getting into their gay porn.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对她们来说，她们不理解，你可以在某个位置插入，但同时还能有完全不同的动态关系。

And to them, they do not understand that there is like you can put the thing in the place, but then also have a different dynamic.

想象一下，

Think like,

是的，这并不意味着

yeah, it doesn't mean

你是个普通的直女，有个在床事上表现不佳的可怜丈夫。

you're vanilla, you're vanilla straight white lady with her sad husband who is insufficient in bed.

是的。

Yeah.

她不会理解的。

It's not going to understand.

对。

Right.

你能做的各种层次的事情。

The levels of things that you're allowed to do.

而且，如果你只经历过异性性行为，只经历过那些互动，即使那并不完全是性行为，只是普通的异性互动。

Well, and if you've only had straight sex and you've only had those interactions, even if it's not like sex, just straight interactions.

嗯。

Yeah.

这些都伴随着一种固有的、隐含的负担。

Those come with a level of inherent, implied burden.

你知道的？

You know?

就像这些行为背后，因为性别而存在一些既定的期待。

Like those there like there are existing expectations around what that looks like because of gender.

当你剥离这些因素后，这些人只是不知道还能怎样运作。

When you strip that out, these people are just they don't know how else it could work.

于是他们开始把同样的性别观念强加到同性性行为上，而许多酷儿群体认为：哦，任何事都可能发生。

So then they start enforcing those same ideas of gender onto queer sex when many queer people view it as like, oh, anything can happen.

我觉得，这其实是多种选择。

Like, I think it's Options.

嗯。

Yeah.

那种‘我是异性恋，所以就遵循性别规范’的基本观念，比如女人是 submissive，躺在下面，男人掌控一切，确实如此。

The baseline of like, oh, I'm straight, so you just go with the gender norms is, yeah, the woman is the sub, she's on bottom, whatever, the man is taking control.

你有没有意识到，女士，你其实不必这样做的？

And it's like, don't did you know that you don't have to do that, ma'am?

如果女人反过来做，那才是反叛的。

And it would be subversive for the woman to do otherwise.

是的。

Yes.

而在同性性行为中，身体更小或更女性化的那个人担任主导角色，并不 inherently 是反叛的。

Whereas in queer sex, it's not inherently subversive for the person who's physically smaller or more femme to top or to dom or you know.

这简直就是原教旨主义。

That's just like, that's fundamentalist.

只是……

Just

这真让我难以置信。

And it just blows my mind.

而且，作为在酷儿空间中的酷儿人士，我确实比其他人更理解这一点。

And like, I understand that me as a queer person in queer spaces, I definitely understand this better than other people.

但我也很抱歉。

But also, like, I'm sorry.

作为一个无性恋、无浪漫倾向、对性持回避态度、实际上没有任何亲身体验的人，为什么我反而这么容易理解呢？

As an aroace person who's sex averse and, like, doesn't actually have any firsthand experience, like, how why is it so easy for me to get it?

而且不是说你们这些人可能

And not well, you people maybe

你可能只是对它有更客观的看法。

you just maybe you have a more objective view of it.

我有时在想，当你提到大约75%的配对都是女性之间的关系，而大多数读者是女性时。

Part of me wonders if like, because when you talk about like, 75% of the ships are like, MLM, And most of the readers are women.

对我来说，这意味着女性在想：啊，我不能读女性之间的性行为，那太同性恋了。

To me, that's women being like, Ah, I can't read ladies fucking that's gay.

但要是我读男性之间的性行为

But if I read men fucking

对吧

right,

那么，这确实是一个层面。

then there's certainly a layer of that.

还是说，作为女性，她们觉得：嗯，我更认同这个角色，而且我是受方，所以对方也必须是受方，这样我才能代入这篇同人小说，假装这不是两个男人，而是一个男人和我？

Or is it because they as the woman are like, well, I identify more with this character and I am a bottom, so they have to be a bottom so that I can, like, impose myself into this fic and like pretend that it's not two men, it's one of these men and me?

就是这样吗？

Like is that it?

好吧，但当你考虑其中的机制时，这完全不是这么回事。

Okay, but then when you think about the mechanics, that's absolutely not how it would be.

如果你只是想代入自己，那就去读直男色情小说吧。

If you just want to insert yourself into it, then read straight smut.

我不知道啊，姑娘。

I don't know girl.

直女色情小说多的是。

Plenty of straight smutters.

在寻找答案。

Trying to find answers.

我知道。

I know.

我只是觉得有太多东西压在我们肩上，让我们像提线木偶一样被操控。

I just think there's so much sitting on our shoulders making us marionetting us like little puppets.

我们需要冷静下来。

And we need to calm the fuck down.

只有在我们同意的情况下，我们才应该被当作提线木偶来操控。

We should only be marionetted like puppets if we consent to that.

是的，我认为确实是这样

Yeah, I do think that's

是某人的癖好。

someone's kink.

也许吧。

Maybe.

就像被细绳绑着，变成一个木偶。

Like being tied up with little strings being made into a puppet.

也许吧。

Maybe.

听起来

Sounds

听我说，有些人就喜欢被绑着。

Listen, like a people like being tied up.

我不知道啊。

I don't know man.

我打赌这确实是个事。

I bet that's a thing.

我不想去搜索，因为我害怕。

I don't want to look it up because I'm afraid.

因为那样的话，谁知道你会找到什么，因为

Because then, who knows what you'll find Because

那我就得去看它了，但我不知道自己是否准备好面对，不过我还是为他们高兴。

then I'll have to see it and I don't know if I'm ready for that but happy for them.

为他们高兴。

Happy for them.

不管怎样，我们还有别的要说的吗？

Anyway, do we have anything else to say?

没有，我非常想听听人们对这件事的看法，看看是否有人能告诉你为什么会出现这种情况。

No, I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts on this and whether anyone can provide you the answer you're looking for on like why.

因为也许外面真有一个非常合理的理由，比如：这确实让我感到不适，我无法继续阅读这些内容。

Because maybe there is a very valid reason out there for like, no, this genuinely triggers me and I can't be reading this.

也许我们还没想到什么，我觉得。

Maybe there's something we're not thinking I feel like

我觉得这种情况，要么必须与读者本人非常相关，要么与角色本身非常相关。

I feel like that situation, it would have to be either very specific to the person reading it or very specific to the characters.

就像我说的，没错。

Like, and as I said Yeah.

我认为这不会是一个普遍的情况。

Don't think it would be a widespread situation.

这必须是一种与创伤相关或与性身份相关的情况。

Like, it would have to be like a a trauma informed thing or a sexual identity informed thing.

我不太舒服这种事。

Like I am not comfortable with this.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，再次强调，感到不舒服是可以的。

And I And again, being uncomfortable with it is fine.

是的。

Yeah.

我可能对大多数事情都感到不舒服。

I'm uncomfortable with perhaps most things.

但这并不意味着我把我的不适变成别人的问题。

That does not mean I'm making it other people's problem.

对。

Right.

感到烦躁、失望，比如读了二十千字的小说后，心想：哦，天啊，这就是我期待的内容。

Being annoyed, being ups, like being disappointed, like, oh, getting 20 ks into a fic and then being like, oh, man, this is what I hope for.

这没问题。

That's fine.

是的，这种事经常发生。

Yeah, that happens.

你可以感受你的情绪。

You can feel your feelings.

你的感受关我屁事。

Not my fucking business, what your feelings are.

对。

Right.

但这没关系。

But that's fine.

我还在笑你因为这个被拉黑了。

I'm still giggling that you got blocked because of this.

这太荒谬了。

It's so silly to It

这让我感到惊讶。

does surprise me.

我曾经因为午餐的事拉黑过别人。

I've blocked people over lunch.

太好笑了。

So funny.

很好笑。

Funny.

对我来说太好笑了。

So funny to me.

总之，这就是我想说的。

Anyway, yeah, so that's what I have to say.

你还有什么要补充的吗？

Do you have anything to add to that?

你对我是怎么陷入这种境地的有什么看法吗？

Do you have any thoughts about how I ended up in this situation?

你有什么问题、想法或担忧吗？

Do you have any questions, thoughts, concerns?

也许有一些担忧。

Maybe some concerns.

比如什么？

Like what?

比如，我们可能应该少用一下推特。

Like maybe we should be on the Twitter machine less.

你知道，

You know,

它确实以一种我知道是糟糕主意的方式打乱了我的晚上。

it did derail my evening in a way that I knew was a bad idea.